Too Close to Ground Zero?

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Doug Hughesposted 13 years ago
MURFREESBORO, Tenn., Aug. 28, 2010

"Federal officials are investigating a fire that started overnight at the site of a new Islamic center in a Nashville suburb.

Ben Goodwin of the Rutherford County Sheriff's Department confirmed to CBS Affiliate WTVF that the fire, which burned construction equipment at the future site of the Islamic Center of Murfreesboro, is being ruled as arson.

Special Agent Andy Anderson of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives told CBS News that the fire destroyed one piece of construction equipment and damaged three others. Gas was poured over the equipment to start the fire, Anderson said..."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/08/ … ontentBody
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ..if they try to build the mosque close to "ground zero," watch!
  It will be destroyed every time construction begins....lets see if I'm right.
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  dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This has been festering for a long time in Murfreesboro.
  
  The start of this proplem, ventures back 1 1/2 years to a land zoning referendum, where People wanted no more appartments. They were ok with this land being commercial so to gain tax revenue. There were rumors from the city offices of a Tax Free status clause, and folks said no we want real tax income, to thus add to current tax income and keep all property taxes low, because new tax would add to the coffers. Thus no vote to raise personal property tax.
  
  The Powers to be, had the referendum, then immedately , within weeks passed it over, and anounced a plan for a non profit Mosque. Thats what started this mess. The over-ride of the vote, because they were lazy and lousy at attracting new business and jobs into the area. and a Muslum group that was alredy here, decided they could build a big central Mosque! Take advantage of an opening and expand. The fight is for Land, not religion, but Muslim fear is helping the situation along.
  
  I am from this area also, Hermitage, Tenn. The amasing thing here (to me) is when you go to Murfreesburo. For shopping, resturants, classes at the college etc... The real majority of the folks- there, minus the student population at MTSU, which does not live there perminantly. ( Mostly Tax payers and Property owners) Honestly and truly do no want any Mosque at all.
  
  They will talk to you if you ask, and the folks I have talked to say it is too close? I have to ask is it to close in Geographical location, or to close in memory of 9-1-1.
  
  When I think of ithis part of this mess, not the real land issue, I also in fair-nes have to ask. Why is it ok for Groups like Hamas to say Arabs who have been wronged remember and we "have to" understand that wounds fester.
  
  But in their outlook, they close there minds to any possibility that Americans are people to, and we also remember.
  
  I do not condone acts of violence what so ever, and setting equipment on fire, or firing shots like has happend there, at that location- are indeed acts of Terror. Should be prosecuted as such.
  
  but I do consider that if a real majority tells an area Goverment they do not want it in a referendum, then why are those people allowed to keep comming back, re-opening wounds. They lost to popular vote.
  
  Why do the politicans there- ignore that? I have to wounder who is offering these community leaders monies on the side, what are they hiding or being promissed. And I honestly suspect the same things are going on in Bloombergs office in New York. Even though New York has not voted on anything I believe. At least to date.
  
  People- They said no in Murfreesboro...they mean NO! Get over it, and please find another place to Build it, please. Homeowners and land owners- People in Murfreesboro and around that Nashville area, said NO.
  
  The folks here do not want any violence if you ask them. And reguardless they took a brave stance, because the Constitution is exact. They realise it is explosive. Reguardless, they still said NO. The oposing group will tell you? If our President can Ignore the Constitution, say its flawed, then why -can not, Legal Citizens (Tax paying State Residents) say what they believe? Does not a vote count?
  
  The folks pushiing the Mosque need to realise this, and Look elsewhere please. We are Human and we remember when we are attacked. Just like any Arab can remember. We can to. Humans behave similar all over the world. We have rights to!
  
  I am sorry for the length of this, I'll get off my soap box now....lol I just felt the whole story needs to be shown. I am a devoued Christian, yes. But To me a Mosque is actually ok, God is God no matter what path, but the folks there said no. It is about the land and a vote ignored.
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lrohnerposted 13 years ago
Well, that sure didn't take long, did it? I'll bet we see a lot more of this in the days to come.
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  Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Doesn't this qualify as domestic terrorism?
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  lrohnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This kind of stuff happens all the time. Look at all of the bombings by fanatics of the abortion clinics several years ago. I don't think this qualifies any more or less as domestic terrorism just because it happened to have something to do with an islamic center, if that's what you're trying to get at.
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  weholdthesetruthsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What do you call it when environmentalists firebomb a car dealership? Or spike trees? Or liberal activists firebomb the office of a Democrat candidate? Care to enlighten us?
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "What do you call it when environmentalists firebomb a car dealership?"
  Terrorism.
  "Or spike trees?"
  Terrorism.
  "Or liberal activists firebomb the office of a Democrat candidate?"
  Um...stupid terrorism?
  
  Was there a point to those questions, or were you just checking?
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Certainly it does! It is simply a message to Muslims that their religion is not wanted in the Bible Belt! It is a direct result of the hype caused by the religious right and their protests against the so-called "ground zero mosque" controversy.
  
  If this had been a christian based building site the Muslims would be blamed for the arson! Thanks Faux News!
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  Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I guess a domestic terrorist has to carry the Koran. Christians who dress in white robes with optional hoods for lynchings are just a fun-loving social club. With or without the robes - vandalizing the site of a church under construction - because you dislike that religion and wish drive fear into the memebers of that church IS domestic terrorism!
  
  If they catch the guys who did it, they can lock them up at Gitmo and throw away the key. For once, it's too bad they quit waterboarding.
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  Tim_511posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Christians who dress in white robes"?
  
  Yeah, right. Try atheists, for the most part. White power in this country has nothing to do with Christianity.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "White power in this country has nothing to do with Christianity."
  You never said a truer thing, but the white power folks would probably disagree. They wrap themselves in the Bible as well as the flag, and see no contradiction. Small minds, I guess.
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  Tim_511posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The real "white power" people in the US are atheist/anti-Christians (and I don't mean that those atheists and anti-Christians are necessarily the same people). I'm not so stupid as to claim that no one in the movement claims to be a Christian, but the real movers hate Christianity.
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  weholdthesetruthsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This is hate speech. It is utterly baseless accusations against a class of people, designed to foment hatred and animosity. This is done by small minds and immoral cretins. Thanks for demonstrating what's in your heart.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  In the sense that I "hate" how hypocritical some on the right are, you may have a point! And what class of people are you referring to, Wehol?
  
  There is already hatred and animosity exhibited by those protesting the building of the center! And you used the terms "small minds" and "immoral cretins." Thanks for demonstrating what's in your mind!
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  weholdthesetruthsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  How do you know that those who don't want certain things done are out of hate? I know what hate is when I read it. You can't tell something is hate, just because someone doesn't want something.
  
  Note: I make certain categorical statements about "liberals" and "conservatives" and even "libertarians". But these are observed behaviors. I do not speculate as to the motives of anyone. But I do observe and correctly identify what people ARE ATTEMPTING TO DO.
  
  I've written about the GZM, and what I say is perfectly clear. It is also perfectly clear it's NOT HATE. As for the motives of whoever committed arson? We don't know. We don't know who did it. You're making baseless accusations against a whole group of people, designed to foster hate. Why?
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  C.J. Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually if you read, there were folks protesting the location. The protest had no merit, the plans were approved and now, apparently someone has burned it. This could be hate or theft. Let's wait and see shall we?
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I predict no one will be charged for the arson! I do hope I am wrong!
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  C.J. Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Arson can be hard to prove. If it was some redneck bigot, he/she won't be able to keep their mouth shut and they will get caught.
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  Flightkeeperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That would be too sensible of a move for the lefty chicken littles and would undermine their goal of painting all republicans as racists before the elections.
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  luvpassionposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Besides, its clear that with the fallen construction buisness the owner of the equipment probably found it more profitable to burn the equipment and collect the insurance then to continue making the payments.
  
  Teri
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  C.J. Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I suspect this to be the case as well. If some bigot wanted to cause trouble why not wait until they actually started construction? The fact that a few pieces of heavy equipment were burned seems suspicious. Lot's of construction companies are feeling the pinch right now. Another possible motive is workers/members of the local community punishing there general contractor for bidding on/accepting the project. I see this as fraud or an indirect assault. I still think we all need to calm down on this issue.
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  C.J. Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Unfortunately true. The problem is that I don't believe either side see's just how volatile this issue can be. We really don't need this trouble.....
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Doug Hughesposted 13 years ago
" It is utterly baseless accusations against a class of people, designed to foment hatred and animosity. This is done by small minds and immoral cretins."

Please explain. YOu seem to be defending the vandalism of construction equipment at the future site of a mosque??!! Or do you think it was a wennie roast that got out of hand? The FBI siad they doused the gear with gas and set fire to it.

And Randy (or I) is formenting hatred and animosity??!!! We are immoral for calling out bigotry. Tell me I misunderstood you, please because normally I can respect the hubbers I disagree with but..
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  weholdthesetruthsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  YOU are fomenting hate. You said
  
  "Certainly it does! It is simply a message to Muslims that their religion is not wanted in the Bible Belt! It is a direct result of the hype caused by the religious right and their protests against the so-called "ground zero mosque" controversy."
  
  All of which is pure fiction. You do not know who did it, nor why. Made up to publicly malign a certain group of people - specifically all those who believe in the Bible, and prompt the reader to have animosity towards others. This is the very definition of "hate speech".
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Okay! Let's hear your reasoning as to why this was done! Accident? Done by the left to implicate the right? Muslims themselves did it? You tell me!
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  Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Randy - here's the punch line if you like satire. The clowns who are pretending that we don't know who did this because we don't have arrests and proof (yet) are the SAME clowns who are sure that the Islamic center in NYC is being built as a monument to the al qaida 'victory' of bringing down theTwin Towers. Without evidence. When everything on the site says the opposite. When it turns our the imam is Sufi, who are despised and persecuted by the Suni and Shiite radicals in the mid-east.
  
  They don't neeed evidence to persecute Moslems in America - but hey demand it before you can even make the suggestion of religious bigotry by SOME christians in the USA. The underlying idea is that ALL Muslims are automatically guilty and ALL Christians are absolved. BULL!!!
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  Jim Hunterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe it was people who just don't like Muslims.
  
  People other than Christians hate Muslims.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Are you familiar with the people in Murfreesboro Tennessee, Jim? It was a notch on the Bible belt the last time I was there!
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  Jim Hunterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not familiar with it at all.
  
  I just don't believe that Christians are the only ones who could have possibly done this.
  
  I don't think you think that either.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, I know there are other possible explanations for the arson, but with all of the hoopla over the "ground zero" mosque it tends to favor it being a hate crime! I certainly hope that isn't the case!
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  weholdthesetruthsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Your argument is based upon the notion that Christians are emotionally unstable, immature, prone to violence juveniles.
  
  Thanks for demonstrating in clear language your prejudices and bigotry.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Your opinion of what my argument is based upon is just that, merely your opinion! But some christians are emotionally unstable, just like some non-christians!
  
  If you think all christians are responsible adults then you must live in fantasy land. Just ask the victims of the Salem Witch trials Oh that's right, they cannot answer because they were murdered by ignorant superstitious christians.
  
  I live in the bible belt dude! Many of these folks are led around by the nose by evangelical preachers! Just like they always have been. I'm not saying all are like this but there are enough of them to go around!
  
  Thanks for demonstrating your opinion is as ill informed as ever!
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  weholdthesetruthsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  How could I possibly 'tell" you anything until the facts are known?
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You cannot think of a reason or reasons this might have happened? I didn't ask for you to psychically furnish the answer!
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  weholdthesetruthsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You did not ask me to speculate. You asked me to tell you the reasons, and the reasons are completely unknown to the public at this time.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Let's hear your reasoning as to why this was done!"
  
  So you took "reasoning" as asking for a definite answer? No, you knew what I was asking and didn't care to answer! Simple as that!
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  weholdthesetruthsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Nonsense. You asked me to explain to you the reasoning for it. That is posted RIGHT ABOVE HERE, you can't backtrack now. How could I possibly tell you anything factual if nobody knows even who did it? If it was a group of Kurds, speculation of motive may have some foundation. But we have no idea whatsoever who did it, so, there is NO possible way I'm going to be able to explain any reasoning used to do it.
  
  Even if we did know who did it and had them give some reason, my ability to explain their thinking or reasoning is still... all but non existent. Your question was, plainly, absurd.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I plainly asked you to speculate on alternative reasons for the arson! But never mind, I really do not care for your opinions anyway! You have already shown your inability to do anything but criticize those who do not agree with you! What a joke!
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  wildernessposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Doug, I have to go with wehold this time. Playground equipment at a nearby school under construction was recently torched here. It wasn't the right wing religious group protesting evolution in schools, it wasn't the tax free group seeing their taxes go up and it wasn't even the home-school group. It was a bunch of kids setting off fireworks on the equipment, not realizing what would happen.
  
  I've seen a backhoe driven into a swimming pool, had empty pipes filled with concrete and someone once went through a building poking holes into new sheetrock walls. None was terrorism - it was all simply vandalism.
  
  You are jumping to conclusions at this point. If it happens again and again, all at mosque sites, you would have a point and a very good one. At this time, though, you come across as Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity drawing conclusions from insufficient data and blowing it out of proportion.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, but aren't you assuming if kids did it they had no knowledge of the current feelings of their parents? We are talking the bible belt here! The kids are affected by their parent's talk too!
  
  I live even deeper in the belt than where this took place. I hear supposedly upstanding citizens of the community discussing what should be done to the Muslims who would dare to erect a community center close to the 911 site. Yes mere unfounded speculation!
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  Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  wilderness - This was no surprise to me. Though the MSM has not picked up on what's happening in TN, I have been folloing it through blogs for weeks. The GOP candidate and the teabagger candidate have racheted up the anti-mosque rhetoric in a quest for wingnut votes - so all of TN is aware of the mosque and a lot of whackjobs are looking for some way to circumvent the 1st Amendment..
  
  This is the result of right-wing nuts wtirring up religious hatred and resentment for votes in an election year. If that wasn't true, it wouln't have taken 10 years to develop. I'm not saying either the GOP candidate or the teabagger was directly involved - they just provided the matches.
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IzzyMposted 13 years ago
I reckon Americans who think it is a good thing to have a mosque at Ground Zero have flipped and lost the plot. Don't you know the rest of the world is laughing at you! It is the most mental thing I have ever heard of in my life!
OK the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful and not terrorists, but those among them that are will flock to this mosque to laugh at you even more, and probably plot more horrific acts against you.
I spent the day of September 11 online, comforting children in an AOL conference room, who were scared witless that their mom/dad weren't going to arrive home that day. Kids whose mom/dad worked in Manhatten. (the lines of communication were broken at that time, if you remember) Eventually I had to leave to go to work myself. I was scared witless everytime I passed a tall building. Half a world away and we were all terrified that we could be next.
How short some of your memory's are! How forgiving you are! Geez a break!
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  weholdthesetruthsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This whole controversy is mostly a matter of "knowing" vs "not knowing" the contexts to all of it. I wrote a hub about it
  
  http://hubpages.com/hub/Whats-this-At-ground-zero
  
  Are there people who, in the name of Islam or Allah, plan, devise schemes, and even carry out schemes to kill anonymous Americans? The answer is yes. And, countless Jihad sites, the clerics and scholars and Mullahs and Imams who are in the Islamic states agree with the actions and call for it. And none oppose. Why? Because to oppose means a Fatwa calling for your death - Islam is owned and controlled by those very people. But Islam is not just a religion. In fact, the spiritual aspects of Islam are nearly ignored by all those people. They have become corrupted by power and control, and are far less about spiritual renewal and peace in the soul, than they are about power, control, and the exercise of authority.
  
  So where does that leave US? Inviting them to establish institutions on OUR shores? Monumentally stupid. Is that hate speech? Not at all, it's the most rational and logical conclusion anyone could make.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So even if they or their parents were born here, it is still YOUR shores? This explains your attitude of wanting to decide what is right, not only for yourself, but for other American citizens! Too bad! Each of us have just as much right to be here as you do! Not more, but just as much! I suggest you get used to it!
  
  And promoting your own hubs on this forum is strongly discouraged!
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  weholdthesetruthsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It's too bad you're unwilling to read what I wrote and comment on that, instead of just trying to do a little propagandizing.
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  Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;.."
  
  That's the First Amendment of the Constitution - and the first phrase guarantees freedom of religon. So your opinion expresses the most un-American of ideas. Any attempt to act on it by any level of govenment would be unconstitutional. An act by individuals to intimidate individuals for thier beliefs is quite probably a felony.
  
  If you decide to act on your bigotry with an act of violence - you don't want me on the jury, But I hearily support your right of free speech - even expressing stupid bigotry.
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  Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  no, the first phrase guarantees that "CONGRESS shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"
  
  ... y'know, because that's what it says.
  
  States can still pass laws respecting religion - although New York can't, its constitution outlawed this some time back. Cities could, too, so long as it doesn't interfere with the state constitution.
  
  And before you say "the supreme court says...", I don't care. That's not what the Constitution says. If we just do what the Supreme Court says, we'll get "all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others".
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  Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Weholdthesetruths, I was agreeing with you a bunch elsewhere, but here I must disagree.
  
  I don't care what Muslims do, or how evil they might be.
  
  The fact is that the AMERICAN laws in this situation allow the building of this Mosque. The US Constitution's first and tenth amendment make it a state issue, and the New York constitution make outlawing the building illegal.
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  weholdthesetruthsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think when faced with a logical conflict, you're punting. Islam is not just a religion. It is an ideology that is strictly authoritarian in nature, one that is self referential in nature (it defines itself, with "it" being the clerics, etc, in power), and comes with it's own version of history, logic, economics, and rules governing thinking. But it includes the parts of our lives we call "religion".
  
  You can't simply ignore that countless websites, groups, authorities, and spokespeople for Islam call and have called for the killing of Americans, specific Americans, for attacks to harm the country and people, etc. And these go unsilenced and unrebuked, as they speak in the name of Islam, and do so with authority.
  
  You cannot simply pretend this is "just a religion" when it is not. Further, the adherents of Islam believe it is perfectly ok to kill, lie, steal, commit subterfuge, commit ANY act to advance the cause of Islam. It's a doctrine, for pity's sakes.
  
  You offer no means of coping with this, other than just burying your head in the sand. Millions refuse to do that, and are ( some with understanding like me, some are just emotional, and some are just prejudiced ) refusing to simply accept the encroachment.
  
  I don't particularly care if someone prays to Allah, lives their personal life by the teachings of Islam. It's wrong, but I have animosity toward them, just as I hold no animosity towards Baptists, Catholics or Mormons.
  
  But when the organized aspects of Islam, which are funded by and sponsored by the radicals that adhere to the things we cannot accept, try to build "centers" here... We better look at it not just once, but 50 times, before we invite what has proven to be violent and repressive elsewhere.
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  Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think you are the first to misread the post. This happened in a town in Tennessee where there's a large population of Kurds. I suppose that to a Moslem - Catholics, Mormons and Baptists are interchangable.
  
  The Kurds were refugees from Sadam Hussain and were relocated there by the US. Educate yourself a little before you pass judgement.
  
  http://www.mtsu.edu/one/smurat.shtml
  
  Regarding radical Islmaics laughing - they are. As we abandon Freedom of Religion and tolerance, they can rejoice that they DID succeed on 911 - they did force the US to take a role opposite all Islam - pushed the US into a religous war which they hope will endure for decades. When we abandon our principles - that's when THEY WIN!
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  weholdthesetruthsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You have it wrong. They dont' want a centuries long war with us. No, quite the opposite, they believe we are afraid, weak and weak-willed, and that to avoid conflict, we'll allow them to eventually establish sharia law here, and eventually to subjugate all of us to sharia law.
  
  You do NOT want Sharia law here. Every nation subject to it is a nightmare of violence, repression, poverty, and hopelessness.
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CkhoffmanKposted 13 years ago
This is all so very sad.

What happened to our nation? We were built on fundamentals of tolerance, acceptance and we are not to persecute others.

The ignorance of this place boggles my mind.
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  luvpassionposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Haven't you heard were now for profit and corruption. Capital gain and repression.
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I am DB Cooperposted 13 years ago
This absolutely is the very definition of domestic terrorism. People who are against the mosque expansion project are trying to terrorize everyone who is for it. Did anyone happen to catch the people involved in this struggle last week on The Daily Show? The ignorance of the woman who was a leader of the opposition was astounding. Even sitting there in front of the camera being interviewed by a man from The Daily Show who told her he was a Muslim she had trouble hiding her bigotry.
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  luvpassionposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh bigotry...from wikipideia A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, irrationality, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs.
  
  Doesen't everyone fall in this catagory in one way or another? Even if its not against race or religion...perhaps north from south, gender, age..weather a person likes a different sports team, a particular car or food. A Nationality I see it all the time in the Military, the pilots and knuckledraggers, the officers against the enlisted men. How does one overcome it...I think its impossible.
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  Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No one is suggesting thatt eh human race will suddenly become pure-of-heart. Taking gasoling and pouring it over construction equipment and torching the gear is an act of will - not an involuntary reflex. You can decide not to act on a bias or prejudice.
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  luvpassionposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Isn't it bias or prejudice that makes you assume (no offense) it was bias or prejudice that this act was done without further evidence?
  
  Perhaps the owner of the equipment did just want the insurance money.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Indeed.
  
  It looks like it was done by folks who don't like the idea of a mosque in their neighborhood.
  
  But you know what? It also looks like your standard insurance fraud.
  
  And it also looks like random vandalism/kids lighting fires for kicks.
  
  In the current climate of paranoia, it's easy to grab on to any crime and assume that it was done by "them" because "they" hate the victims.
  
  If, for example, somebody beat me up and took my wallet, it might be because he hates straight white guys* and I happen to be a straight white guy in the wrong place at the wrong time, or it might just be that he's a thief and wanted my wallet.
  
  In fact, I remember a news story from some time ago (can't remember the details just now, sorry) where a mugger (in NYC, I think) beat the bejeezus out of a gay guy and took his wallet. They caught the mugger and charged him with not only the mugging but the hate crime of beating up the victim just because he was gay. Perversely, the single hate crime carried a harsher penalty than multiple muggings. That may be why the mugger copped to several other muggings that he hadn't been caught for, saying something like, "Hey, I didn't even know the guy was gay. That's just the way I go about mugging people."
  
  Priceless.
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Evan G Rogersposted 13 years ago
I have no problem whatsoever with building anything near ground zero.
...

... But why the hell do the owners of that property still want to build a mosque there? "Accidents" are going to be happening to it almost ever month!! i don't approve of these "accidents", but they WILL happen!
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  Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  MURFREESBORO, Tenn. is about 1000 miles from NYC. There's a large community of Kurds living there, many fled Sadam Hussain many years before 911.
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  Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  lol, my mistake.
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  Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The title of the post led a lot of people down the wrong path, because they figured I was still writing on the NYC center.
  
  The point I wanted to make - and a lot of folks missed - is that kooks who do NOT represent mainstream America are trying harass ALL Muslims. It's not about Ground Zero or respect for those who died on Sept 11. It's about getting popular support for bigotry and religous hatred.
  
  This is one subject we agree on, Evan. I'm not preaching to you.
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  Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I must admit, I saw "mosque" and "NYC" ... and didn't bother reading further
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  C.J. Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You can try and make this about "Religous Freedom". To you maybe that's all there is to it. You are probably correct that the violence is NOT mainstream. However opposition to the Mosque in NY is very mainstream.
  The muslim folks in Murpheesboro did not flee, they were brought. The fed set up sanctuary sites in several states. Tennessee being one. Remember the Miami riots in the 70's? This is nothing new. The fed takes refugees and dumps them on the doorstep of some unsuspecting state/city The rest of the country calls them bigots when it all goes to hell in a hand basket.
  I don't think people would be having nearly as much heart burn with this IF immigrants would assimilate. I understand that this is a two way street. The immigrant needs to feel welcomed by US. In turn WE need the immigrant to assimilate. Thats the problem. There are three major groups who are immigrating to this country and NOT assimilating to OUR culture. One of the three groups is being connected in the minds of American's to the worst terrorist event in recent history. This by it's very nature is divisive.
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  Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  On what basis do you say they are not assimilating? Because they aren't Baptists? Read this and then explain how they aren't assimilating.
  
  http://www.mtsu.edu/one/smurat.shtml
  
  What''s DIVISIVE is the GOP and teabaggers making ALL members of a minorityreligion terrorists in the minds of voters to scare a few more idiots into selecting the (R) candidate. This is cheap fearmongering and some flakes don't realize it's all a GOP game - they are conductiong domestic terrorisim against innocent people.
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  ahorsebackposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Wow domestic terrorism by the GOP. look out everyone , don't forget to check our boxcutters at the mosque doors.
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  C.J. Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Baptist? That would be a pretty narrow view. No. There are three ways that immigrant assimilation is typically measured: Economic, Civic and Culture. The Government provides great assistance for the first two. The third is left to the immigrant and the community. That is where I believe the problem is. Government cant provide the solution here.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "But why the hell do the owners of that property still want to build a mosque there? "Accidents" are going to be happening to it almost ever month!! i don't approve of these "accidents", but they WILL happen!"
  
  Evan, they're not businesspeople; they're not building a store. It's not a business decision. People make all kinds of choices that seem to be against their own interests when religion is involved. (There's a discussion about matryrdom in the religious forums that might be relevant...)
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  seanorjohnposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Jeff, as I understand it, no one is building a mosque. The building is a community centre with a swimming pool, basketball court, restaurant and prayer room. It will have a memorial plaque to the victims of 9/11 and is three blocks away from ground Zero.It is open to all, not just muslims.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, all of that's true, but the builders of the center are (I understand) building it because of their faith, to build bridges between Muslims and non-Muslims. They aren't doing it (primarily) to turn a profit.
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ahorsebackposted 13 years ago
This is just as much about religious sensitivity as it is about religious freedoms , Will you go to Bagdad to build a Latter Day Saints church next to the bombed out mosque, No! You would not! Perhaps muslims might learn a lesson of being sensitive to other cultures and religions , near ground zero, and aren't there already 200 mosques in new york ?
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  Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  WOW! I know you are parroting what you hear from Glen Beck, but listen to what you just said!!!!!!!!!!!!! The USA invented Freedom of Religion as a standard. And you think the US should abandon the Constitution and adopt the rules and customs of a repressive nation to punish Americans of a minority religion for the actions of other people they are not remotely connected with???
  
  That's about as smart as gang-raping a nun to punish the Catholic church for the actions of a pedophile priest. That might make you feel good, but it doesn't address the problem.
  
  Get a grip on the islamaphobia! These are AMERICANS and they have a right to practice thier religion
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  ahorsebackposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You see this is the thing wih the left, Always label with the same rhetoric, if Beck said this ,good for him, he agrees with the majority of Americans . Your gang raping comment is just plain stupid man, but whatever. This is the thing ,remember "Majority " oppinion , this is what liberal intellectuals can't handle! Totalitarion rules in political correctness
  it always has.
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  C.J. Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Being active in the Nashville Kurdish community, I was attracted to the wide diversity. I wanted to go to a school that was accepting of my culture, as well as others’."
  
  "The Nashville area is home to more than 12,000 Kurds and has developed a community rich in our native culture. MTSU has embraced our culture and, to me, it seemed natural to become a Blue Raider. My brother and several of our friends also attend classes here and we helped to found the Kurdish Student Association (KSA)."
  
  "That is one of the goals of the KSA – to bring knowledge to the forefront. To that end, we are also conducting a series of classes on campus to help inform and instruct others. Another goal is to recruit more Kurdish students to MTSU. Because we are the first school in Tennessee to have Kurdish classes, it is only natural that Kurds would be attracted to a campus where people understand the language and culture of our home. The KSA is also planning to create a documentary to show to high school students who are interested in MTSU and may not have any campus connection. We are also linked to the greater Nashville Kurdish community through the web site"
  
  The focus is on someone else accepting HIS NATIVE CULTURE. Not him accepting US Culture. This gives the community the impression they are being "invaded" this brings out the worst in society....
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  weholdthesetruthsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Which part of Islam do you want them to practice? The part about beating his wife if she displeases him?
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  Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  the argument "aren't there already 200 mosques in New York already"? doesn't really hold much sway with me...
  
  http://www.nyc.com/new-york-city/churches.aspx
  
  There are over 6500 churches (not christian specific) in New York.... city.
  
  Yeah, you read that right.
  
  Anyway, if some guy thinks that investing his money in a mosque will make a profit (via helping other people), then let the guy do it.
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  ahorsebackposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Right ! profit in a religious center , sounds cool ,I want one too.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Not-for-profit" does not mean "unprofitable."
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Will you go to Bagdad to build a Latter Day Saints church next to the bombed out mosque, No! You would not!"
  
  NO, I would NOT!
  
  But I'm also not a member of the LDS church.
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VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 13 years ago
We can dwell in the Antarctic, and in the Arctic, braving the cold and remain on the icy grounds with some precautions.... and inside an igloo, life will be happier. We can live on the high seas on a ship and in an island in the centre of Pacific.

But you cant live near an inferno.... burning forests and near a volcano...

Living near 6500 churches is different.
Living near a single mosque, if not 200, is different.
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  Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You've been taking lessons from Captain America in writing cryptic comments. Impressive.
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ahorsebackposted 13 years ago
Does it bother anyone that the promoter of the proposed mosque is paid by governments and tax dollars for his "speading the tolerance of Islam?"
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Which government? Whose tax dollars? Got specifics? With, y'know, sources?
  And are you talking about the one in Murfreesboro or in NYC? 'Cos there's a bit of a muddle on this thread...
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  ahorsebackposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Us and Un tax dollars as an envoy to the middle east as reported on cnn news, the new york city proposed mosque, and what about separation of church and state ? Or is that just for christianity?
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Okay, I'm going to take your question seriously, and try to get it clear what exactly you're asking/saying before I try to answer.
  
  You're saying that according to CNN, the promoter of the proposed mosque in NYC is being paid by the US government (and the UN?) to do...what, exactly?
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  Reality Bytesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  From Ms. NBC
  
  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38947043/ns … tn_africa/
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "State Department spokesman Mark Toner says Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has completed a Persian Gulf trip that was intended to promote religious tolerance."
  
  Okay, he's being paid by the State Department to promote religious tolerance in the Persian gulf.
  
  And this is bad because...?
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  C.J. Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Shouldn't he be doing that here? I mean a Muslim going to predominately Muslim countries preaching tolerance...what does that achieve? Is he infaltrating terrorist organizations and talking them out of being terrorist? Don't you see how the right would see this as a State funded Religious fund raiser?
  
  I'ts easy for me to tell you I wll give you a million dollars if I ever have it....when I don't have it to give or have any prospects of getting it.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Shouldn't he be doing that here?"
  He is He's working on a community center in NYC. But for some reason, certain people seem to disapprove. Crazy, right?
  
  "I mean a Muslim going to predominately Muslim countries preaching tolerance...what does that achieve?" Maybe the folks over there would listen to a fellow Muslim who tells them to be nice to people of other faiths, when they might not pay much attention to someone who isn't also a Muslim? The messenger can matter almost as much as the message.
  
  "Don't you see how the right would see this as a State funded Religious fund raiser?"
  Explain the logic that leads to that conclusion.
  
  "I'ts easy for me to tell you I wll give you a million dollars if I ever have it....when I don't have it to give or have any prospects of getting it."
  Um...come again?
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  C.J. Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "He is He's working on a community center in NYC. But for some reason, certain people seem to disapprove. Crazy, right?"
  
  Well, is it that simple? Is his work on project 51 directly related to his state funded travel? Is he conducting fund raising while serving as a Government Envoy? This to me would be a huge conflict of interest for our secular government.
  
  The fact that some people disaprove is crazy? Hardly, I think its the norm. Very seldom do large numbers of people agree on anything. Why they disagree is the more important issue. I think some believe that all opposition or even most of it is based on bigotry/hate. Whith that I disagree. I believe it's based on fear. Is that fear irrational? Maybe, but there are lots of causes for this irrational fear. Those fears should be addressed.
  The money for instance. Where is it coming from? How do we find out? Do we get the government involved, investigating religious organizations? Maybe, but isn't that a slipery slope? YES.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Is he conducting fund raising while serving as a Government Envoy? This to me would be a huge conflict of interest for our secular government."
  
  Is there any reason to suspect that he is? I mean, an actual reason, not just "He's a Muslim being paid to advocate religious tolerance in a Muslim country."
  
  If there's a good reason to suspect that he's using his State-Department-funded trip to do fundraising for, well, anything, that's a huge conflict of interest. But where's the evidence?
  
  "The fact that some people disaprove is crazy?"
  The fact that people disapprove of an effort to build bridges of understanding between communities in NYC is pretty crazy.
  
  "Why they disagree is the more important issue. I think some believe that all opposition or even most of it is based on bigotry/hate. Whith that I disagree. I believe it's based on fear."
  
  Oh, we're on the same page there.
  
  "Is that fear irrational? Maybe, but there are lots of causes for this irrational fear." Absolutely the fear is irrational, or, in other words, crazy.
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  C.J. Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Time will tell. This is not going to get better on its own. People ask why won't they move it if "healing" is their motive? Well look at from their perspective. I'm Muslim, I know there is widespread suspicion(at best) of my faith and therefore my allegiance to my country. If I allow my self to be pushed from here to there where will it stop? Now, if they decide to build there. They are (fair or not) forever (in the eyes of many) responsible for the people who are associated with that community center for good and especially bad. To be sure, people will be watching.
  
  People are afraid of water, the dark, clowns, etc. That fear is irrational. It doesn't mean they are crazy. Your simply using a lable to discount those you disagree with. A lable that pretty much ensures the person your labling won't be swayed by your arguments.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  First of all, the not-a-mosque at not-ground-zero was a nonissue before the radical right demagogues got hold of it and turned the community center into a mosque, moved it a few blocks to ground zero, and heavily implied that it was being funded by Al-Qaida, when in reality, it's not a mosque but a community center that also has a chapel in it (kind of like a Muslim version of the YMCA, which, by the way, stands for "Young Men's Christian Association") and it's not at ground zero but rather a couple blocks away from it, alongside as has been mentioned, gay bars and delis and suchlike
  (apparently it's okay to have a strip club right next to Ground Zero, and that in no way besmirches the memories of those who died there), and it's being funded in large part by a fellow who owns 7% of Fox News Corp.
  
  Before the right-wing pundits got hold of it and twisted it around, nobody even raised an eyebrow. The not-a-mosque builders got their approval from the zoning board and everything was fine. Then the cranks with an axe to grind started twisting the facts, misinformed a credulous and cowardly segment of the population, and whipped them into a frenzy of paranoia and xenophobia.
  
  "People are afraid of water, the dark, clowns, etc. That fear is irrational. It doesn't mean they are crazy." Yeah, it kinda does, if that fear makes them do things that make no sense and impinges upon their lives and the lives of others in a big way. (Suppose the guy with a fear of clowns decides to bomb the circus, for example.)
  
  "Your simply using a lable to discount those you disagree with."
  Well, to be exactly accurate, I'm labeling people who disagree with me for no good reason on this particular issue. I have no problem with that. They're freaking out over something that's no big deal, and their freaking out is affecting other people in a negative way.
  
  Now, if the folks freaking out about the not-a-mosque being built at not-ground-zero have an actual reason to object to it (like, oh, I dunno, they've found evidence that it's actually a front for a meth lab or something), then I'll start respecting them as people who have a legitimate point. Until someone comes up with a real reason (based in reality, not based on irrational fears) backed with real evidence (like, actual evidence of actual wrongdoing, not ephemera based solely on what-ifs and maybes) why the not-a-mosque shouldn't be built at not-ground-zero, then objections to it can be safely--and quite fairly--dismissed as xenophobic, bigoted, cowardly, hateful, irrational, or an unpleasant mixture of all of the above.
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  Reality Bytesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I did not say any opinion at all. I merely provided the source you requested.
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  Jim Hunterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It is kinda strange that the left who hate religion constantly defend Muslims.
  
  Think maybe there is a reason for that?
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  Abecedarianposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. The Left DO NOT hate religion. The left defends the right of religion, we are not hypocrits who believe that only "our" religion is the "right" one.
  
  Just like last night while watching the News, a right wing nut case comes on and goes on about stopping the "terrorists" from building and praying in Mosques in Murfreesboro. She said it isn't about religion, it's about their spouting hate. HOW QUICKLY SHE HAS FORGOTTEN about Reverand Anderson, who not to long ago WAS SPOUTING CHRISTIAN HATE towards our president. Asking his members to pray for Obama's death. How Christian of them.
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  C.J. Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  bringing up radical religious fanatics is not productive...You say Reverand Anderson, I say Reverand Wright.....
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  Jim Hunterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. The Left DO NOT hate religion. The left defends the right of religion, we are not hypocrits who believe that only "our" religion is the "right" one."
  
  My apologies, I was unaware that the left was so tolerant of religion and religious views.
  
  I must have missed all of their support for Christian symbols such as nativity scenes, etc.
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  Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  While my view may or may not be representative of most liberals - I heartily support the display of Christian symbols like the Nativity or 10 Commandments on Church property - or private property. This is a secular democracy and those symbols are an inappropriate implied endorsement of a particular religious philosphy on Public land.
  
  I think the SCOTUS has ruled that way.
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Randy Godwinposted 13 years ago
"Every nation subject to it is a nightmare of violence, repression, poverty, and hopelessness."

Sounds like Dubyas reign! LOL!
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  weholdthesetruthsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Gads. Your ignorance is so vast it boggles the mind.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Compared to your vast intelligence? LOLOLOL! You gotta be from Texas!
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  weholdthesetruthsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It takes no vast intelligence, only minimal intelligence to know that we suffered minimal violence, no repression and negligible poverty while Bush was president. BTW, presidents do not "reign". Kings do.
  
  The fact that you would even attempt to compare the US to, say, Iran, can only come from a vast pit of ignorance.
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mikelongposted 13 years ago
"Which part of Islam do you want them to practice? The part about beating his wife if she displeases him?"

Which part of Islam are you preaching "we hold these truths"?

If we really want to use our brain housing units we should look at the hypocrisy of your statements...and look at the patriachal complex of Christianity....and its longstanding support of womens rights.....right?

Ridiculous...

Keep pushing the Muslim "boogeyman"....and we'll keep seeing your projection in the mirror...
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  weholdthesetruthsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What on earth are you talking about? Maybe I should ask, do you actually KNOW anything about Islam, Shariah law, or anything else?
  
  What on earth is a "patriarchal complex of Christianity"? I haven't the faintest idea what you're babbling on about.
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  Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You don't know much about Islam, either. You take the most radical concepts of the most radical segments of Muslim extremists and try to sell the lie that that this represents moderate Muslims in America, who are well-integrated into mainstream America for the most part.
  
  It's worked well in the past when America was persecuting Native Americans, Japanese, Chinese and African-Americans. Probably it will work again, but no matter how popular, a lie is still a lie.
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  weholdthesetruthsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It isn't a lie. Why on earth would I lie? What have I to gain by lying? The doctrines of Islam are published broadly. The conditions are under which ALL Islamic nations live are known. How you could argue that the reality of how Islam is, in the places where Islam is allowed to be the governing order, is not what it is, is beyond me.
  
  Honor killings are still done. The treatment of women as property, not equal human beings is NORMAL behavior in Islam. Islam is what ISLAM DOES, and we see how it is where a state is "islamic". I used to be stupid and thought those were the radicals. No, those are THE ISLAM that exists, and the places in the world where law prohibits the imposition of Shariah law, are the only places in the world where the violent, repressive, and controlling aspects are limited.
  
  It is no lie. The honor killings, the stonings, the retribution and murders sanctioned by Islam are REAL. Islam is what it does when it is allowed to express itself. Name for me ONE Islamic country that has religious freedom and none of the things you c all "radical". It doesn't exist. Ergo, YOUR argument is the lie.
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  Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I amnot sure what country (or plannet) you live on, but I live in and was talking about the USA. There are more than 2 million Moslems living in the USA. Where are the massive numbers of beheadings and stonings and honor killings you speak of a mainstream Islam in the USA?????
  
  Back up your hate with facts! Yes, you can find a case where some hothead Islamic in the USA hit his wife and got arrested - you can find Baptists and Mormons guilty of the same thing. I'm talking about ''violent, repressive and controlling" SHOW ME THAT IN THE US!
  
  If I called your opinions what I think they are, I'd be banned from Hubpages - but use your imagination.
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mikelongposted 13 years ago
I don't call this a "white power" hatred of Christianity...

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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Dude, of course it is! They're not praying together. They're obviously having a seance!
  
  "A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads."
  Leviticus 20:27
  
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  mikelongposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  They are praying before they eat....
  
  This is quite clear...
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, man, that rectangular shape under the soup tureen is so obviously a ouija board. They're trying to summon up a spirit! That's why the guy facing us in dressed all in black: Satan's color! and the other two are dressed as ghosts, to make the spirits they're trying to summon feel more comfortable---
  
  Okay I can't keep this up any longer, it's making my head hurt.
  
  Of course they're praying.
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mikelongposted 13 years ago
Nor this... And you can buy such imagery on t-shirts from "christian books and things" online....

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hero518168posted 13 years ago
if you interest in rc helicopter .pls contact with me
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writerpro18posted 13 years ago
Technical the building of a mosque is put as the first amendment right but if construction of one were to happen i presume that the mosque would be subject to multiple counts of vandalism
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mikelongposted 13 years ago
"Sharia law..sharia law"....Thanks "Truth" for continuing the "all Muslims are the same" diatribe...

I suppose I should look at the Bible and the precedent set in Christian societies, like Spain (which only just opened up to freedom of religion in the past 30 or so years), to stereotype Christians...

Right?
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mikelongposted 13 years ago
Jeff, you can come up with whatever concocted idea you want...but the picture itself is labeled "kkk dinner prayer" and is found at:

http://www.kukluxklan.info/KKK.prisoner … t.hate.htm

So, the next time that you decide to tell someone "what something is", it is best to make sure that they already don't know what "it" is....
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  fa·ce·tious/fəˈsēSHəs/
  Adjective: Treating serious issues with deliberately inappropriate humor; flippant
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mikelongposted 13 years ago
Yeah....reading to fast...and missing the last line....

Sorry about that.
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Too Close to Ground Zero?

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