No, I don't, but I don't judge those who had an abortion either. That's between them and God and not between us on the Forums.
Before you can have a discussion on the subject you have to find a mutually acceptable way to label the subject being discussed. Pro life is unfair because that assumes the other side is pro death and this is not the case. Claiming to be pro life allows most supporters to feel an unwarranted sense of self importance and political correctness. The only way to dicuss this rationally you need the label of pro choice and anti choice. That this allows a natural assumption that the formerly pro side of the debate is now shown to be the anti group and this is unacceptable to the religious backers who need to be labeled and considered pro....everything in their minds at least. You see it is possible to be anti-abortion and pro-choice. No one has the right to tell another human being what they can do with their own body. The moment you assume that right you open yourself up to any medical proceedure someone else decides you need. If you really wanted to stop abortions you would casterate all males except a few you kept for breeding. You willing to give up the nutz if some says you gotta do so and a bunch of others agree. No you will suddenly start crying that the choice should be yours. You have the right to make any choice you like for yourself. You don't have the right to make any choice for me for any reason.
I don't think there is a cut and dry answer for when an abortion is acceptable. In cases of incest or rape, I fully agree with the decision to get an abortion. The child and the mom will be reminded for a life time of how the child was conceived.
I don't feel abortions should be permitted as a form of birth control. Some people use it to get rid of an inconvenience. Some people use an abortion to cover up a moment of indiscretion.
For the sake of victims, abortions should be approved.
Aren't the 10,000 other threads in the political forum discussing this topic enough?
What's to favour? A woman's right over a life? Seeing as that woman only has that right because she herself was not aborted,it seems illogical to go that way.
Aborted is not the default state, you neeed to think logically before you start calling things logical.
how does this not make sense to you? A woman only has this choice if she was not aborted herself. LOgic may not have been the best word. Common sense?
not quiet...woman has to take care of kid..you and me aren't going to come to her rescue..nor would religious bodies nor would religious god...so final call is hers...personally i am against abortion unless it involves rape which might prevent mother to take proper care of her child...but i can't impose my personal thinking on an adult ...
Does that woman not make the choice when she has sex? What is wrong with accountability? Rape is of course a viable excuse. I wonder what those concieved of rape might think about it, or if their opinion even matters.
No she doesn't have to take care of the "kid" there are many loving couples who would love to adopt a baby.
Abortion is never an easy issue for anyone involved. I believe at the end of the day it's a decision that should be made by a well informed patient and competent medical professionals. No one is qualified judge the moral implications of abortion or to pass laws based on their personal beliefs.
Morality is an personal virtue that can't be mandated by legislation.
I would disagree with this - I think others make it anissue. I have absolutely no issue about abortion whatever, it is a personal choice and nothing to do with anyone else, especially kristians who are barely able to write coherently trying to impose what someone told them from that big black book of stuff from the stone age.
Abortion is a womans choice, but I don't approve of it after the 1st trimester.
what about aborting a baby that has a debilitating disease for which there's no cure? It's too easy to just say no to abortion when there are many good reasons as to why it should be considered.
Subjecting a human to a 'life' where there is little or no quality is far more cruel IMO.
I disagree. Many children born with debilitating disease go on to change the world in ways that 'normal' children cannot. Who are we to say who should live or die?
so you are saying that a child born in a vegetative state for example is better off alive?
I didn't say the child would be better off. I think everyone is born for a reason. and who are we to say that that child should not be born? There are people out there who have been born to face impossible odds and have become the most inspirational and miraculous people in the world. So who are we to decide?
You get ALL the say in starting a life - so why not in ending it ?
Ok, that is not a good point...really not a good point!
This is response to your comment earlier. You sit down and decide to start a life, or allow it to happen, I think ? Isn't the responsibility the same ?
NO! Because when humans decide to make life or when it happens accidentally, there is hope attached to that life. Hope that that life will be born healthy and happy and that things will be easy. When it doesn't happen that way, humans tend to want to take the selfish way out. So we think 'well, he would be better off..." when in reality, we are thinking "I will be better off..." It is too dangerous to say what you've said when you take into account our very flawed human ways.
Whether it's selfish or kinder to terminate depends on your point of view i suppose.
I take my hat off to parents that look after severley disabled children, although i personally believe that on occasions it is merely prolonging the agony for the child.
Every time this comes up I wonder why kristians make such a fuss about a foetus and yet contribute to the killing of grown humans around the world. Is it because they might get a chance to indoctrinate the resulting baby but for the human being on the other side of the world it is too late ?
I also wonder about the over-emphasis on individual human life, as though every single human being is essential for the whole of society. I am not suggesting that people are worthless but we put a value on a human life every day, by driving a little recklessly when late for a prayer meeting perhaps, or buying another pile of chocolate to get even fatter instead of going without and sending the money to Oxfam, building vast piles of white concrete with a cross on top instead of investing in Africa or something useful. The value of a human life can be calculated by what we are prepared to do to risk one, I guess someone has done this and got the various different values we attribute to white people, black people, african people, american people, Muslims, Catholics etc etc. I would bet it does not amount to more than a hundred buck on average.
This thread seems to reflect what the gallup polls tell us -- there is more disagreement today on abortion than ever. By the way, their poll shows many more people think that abortion should be somewhat restricted than believe in either unrestricted or banned abortion.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/126374/Repub … rized.aspx
Qwark, it is a womans choice. I agree. But a lot of women who make that decision don't realize how their lives may be affected. It is difficult to make any rational decision when you are faced with unwanted pregnancy for any reason and sometimes we don't think further than the day after because we are in survival mode. But living with a decision after its done, is a completely different thing and can be heartbreaking at the very least.
I wouldn't say I favor it - I would just say what others do is really none of my business - if people in the world would look more inward at themselves instead of spending so much time trying to push their opinions on someone else the world would be a better place all around - like gays - who cares - live and let live and thats my two cents
As per true revelation, Jesus cries on holy cross when couple prefers condom during sex. Christians/Mormons cry when woman chooses abortion even if her life is in danger. Argument is selective from those who oppose abortion. Keyword to takeaway from this is "cry".
they had condoms back then? Actually i think he may have been crying on the cross because he was nailed to it.
The ancient Romans supposedly used condoms made from animal intestines.
I'm sure the ancient Jews had some form of birth control too, despite all the Biblical prohibitions against it. I think it's probably safe to say that having sex only for purposes of procreation is probably the single most widely ignored religious stricture in the history of mankind, yet there really aren't that many women who genuinely want 14 children. Especially back when you had about a 1 in 10 chance of dying every time you got pregnant.
A few abortion related questions…
In a committed relationship, does the father have a say in an abortion? If so, how much say -- can he stop an abortion?
Do the circumstances of the conception matter? Rape, incest, etc.?
Should abortion candidates be required to undergo a psychological evaluation to prove mental competence?
Should abortion be allowed only up to a certain fetal development stage? (1st Trimester, e.g.)
Should underage abortion candidates have to get parental permission?
Should we require that non-viable fetuses be carried to term even though they have almost no chance of surviving birth? (e.g. Anencephaly).
If the mother’s life is at risk from a pregnancy, should she have an abortion or not? Is not allowing her to terminate the pregnancy akin to intentionally killing her?
If a fertilization procedure results in multiple fetuses, can some be aborted to give the rest a better chance at survival?
If someone is forced to carry an unwanted fetus to term, who is responsible for the care and rearing of the baby?
Should government fund abortions for the poor? If not, doesn’t the procedure become available only to the prosperous? What about taxpayers who are against abortion, should they be forced to fund it?
There are no simple answers to these issues. Each abortion situation is unique and should be decided on an individual basis. Any well-meaning but shortsighted “1-sz-fits-all” regulations would only confuse the situation.
Let's call a spade a spade. GENOCIDE if you don't know what it is, look it up.
The question should be: Are you in favor of the mass genocide of innocents that can not adequately defend themselves?
I think the question should be: if you want to ban abortion, what are you doing to help women prevent unwanted pregnancies?
Until unwanted pregnancies become a thing of the past through universal comprehensive sex education, universal access to effective birth control, and the eradication of rape and incest, women are going to get abortions whether they are illegal or illegal. In fact, most regions where abortion is illegal have rates of abortion that are double, triple, or even quadruple that of Western Europe and North America, where abortions are legal in most countries.
In addition to having higher rates of abortion in the first place, countries where abortion is illegal also tend to have much higher rates of abortion related fatalities. Women are 3000% (yes, that's three zeros) more likely to die from an illegal abortion than a legal one. Complications from illegal abortions are one of the leading causes of death for women of childbearing age in the developing world, behind only childbirth and (in some regions) AIDS.
I'm not doing anything with them, That oughtta help.
No, that's not good enough. If you are really intent on enacting a policy that all evidence suggests will lead to more deaths, both of fetuses and of women, than occur under our current policy, then you are either sick or hypocritical if you do not have a plan to prevent such a rise in fatalities.
Curiously, pro-choice people seem to be the only ones who ever offer realistic solutions to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. Pro-lifers evidently genuinely believe that human nature will miraculously change (despite thousands of years of evidence to the contrary) and people young and old, single and married, will just stop having sex unless specifically trying to conceive a child.
So it is not their fault if they get pregnant, even though they know it is a possiblity that they could get pregnant?
By inference you are touching on the biggest issue - education. Most educated people can make educated choices - For those people who are ignorant of facts and have never been taught to reason - it does 'just happen'. One of hte most damaging side effects of the anti's is the deliberate with-holding of good advice, help and sympathy.
While there may be people out there I suppose who do not realize how you get pregnant, I am willing to bet that many of not all of the women who get abortions, did know where babies come from.
Eduacation is a must I agree, and not just for pregnancies but for STD's as well.
But to say a pregnancy is because of ignorance is only accurate to a small number of cases. I'm sorry to say that many women or young teens, think abortion is a form of birth control. They think if I get pregnant I'll just get an abortion. That is what I have a problem with.
Nobody ever told you you couldn't get pregnant your first time? Or standing up? I once read a letter to an advice columnist in which a teenage girl asked if it was true that she could avoid pregnancy by drinking a bunch of ice water and jumping up and down. Somebody apparently had told her that this would freeze her ovaries so she couldn't get pregnant.
Aside from the astonishing amount of ignorance about what are and are not effective means of birth control, there are also couples who do take precautions, but for whom the precautions fail. There are situations where girls are pressured into not using birth control by controlling or abusive partners, or situations where partners deliberately sabotage birth control in an effort to "keep" their girlfriend. (Yes, men do this too.)
Yes, in an ideal world, people would never have sex at all unless they were absolutely willing to face the possibility of pregnancy, but this isn't an ideal world. Improving sex ed and birth control access will do far more to reduce the number of abortions than outlawing them ever has.
Why do you insist on putting facts in these threads - we clearly prefer tobe crying nailed to a cross, committing genocide and generally sobbing sulking and moralising bejeesus !!!
The third world countries that you describe are so screwed up by kristians - they have overwhelmingly real problems of ignorance, corrupt US backed governments, aids, leprosy, and a moral twist to their culture that would almost appear to be CREATING these issues - courtesy of our imposition of religion, our interference in their education, our interferance in ther politics - and our trade laws that prevent them making a living. All made possible by the kristian ability to divide and hate the 'other'.
Is this some ancient druid curse maybe it comes from the ancient druid manuscripts of DDafyd the Dim ?
Seriously - I need to have a chat with you sometime about Druids for a book I working on (on and off over five years actually) - The first is about information - if they did not write anything down where do modern druids get their historical stuff ?
Genocide is the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.
This is related to abortion...how??
religion is irrelevant. Law has ruled. I believe this is the 9th infatuation abortion thread I have seen. Yes or no being the response.
Here's an idea, I know a long shot. Let's leave who favours abortion to the woman bearing child. Let her judge her actions, and let everyone else, judge their own. hmmmm. na, wouldn't work, how could we get threads over and over and over with the same ridiculous posts.
If it is in fact a murder to abort, law dictates any assessor to a murder will be charged and imprisoned to the fullest punishable degree.
Wonder who would be left, could we fill a city. Most likely not.
I know, lock and load, fire now
btw US Weekly announced Beyonce is pregnant with her 1st child, but if she were a boy...........
Although I wouldn't choose it for myself, I have no right legally or morally to tell anyone else what to do with their body.
It's a personal choice.
I think about all the kids that are born to people who don't take care of them, who starve, neglect or ignore them.
Sometimes I think it'd better to not be born at all than to be born into suffering.
There's no "fault" about it. That's a judgmental word.
Accidents happen. In the back of their minds people might be thinking "oh yeah, this could result in me/her getting pregnant, but I'm not going to worry about that right now."
Believe it or not, there is a lot of ignorance about when in a woman's cycle she can get pregnant. Among other myths.
Birth control is never 100% effective, either.
And humans are sexual beings. They're gonna have sex.
Unless you have faced the situation yourself, you don't know what you'll feel.
You really can't generalize that women or teens say to themselves, "oh well, if I get pregnant I'll just have an abortion."
In fact, on the contrary, there is ample evidence (at least out here in CA) that the opposite is true. Plenty of teens and young women who quite frankly have no business having or raising children, choose to have their babies. And the babies end up being raised by grandparents. Or they end up in the foster care system -- although not eligible for adoption, so really stuck in a hellish limbo, waiting for their mom to get her act together enough to get them back from CPS.
Yeah, that's a super life for a kid.
Really cause here where I live a newborn baby given up for adoption is adopted immediately, there are never newborn babies in foster care. Because the line is long of couples who want to adopt a newborn.
There is however babies in foster care when the mother won't give it up for adoption, but has no intention of taking care of it properly.
And the babies in foster care in limbo because the mother refuses to give up her rights to the baby. If she would give up her rights and do the right thing and allow the baby to be adopted it would be adopted very fast.
yeah cause everyone feels differently and most feel VERY strongly about it!!
Tell me about it. And it's not likely to change. And I guess it shouldn't
Do you favour abortion? Do you favour rape? Do you favour incest?
It's all like - do you favour coke? Or pepsi? (Because someone just has a burning desire to know what we all drink!..)
Are you sure you guys are phrasing things quite the way you mean them?
Nobody 'favours' abortion. 'Like, OMG! I'm so excited! I'm going to get an abortion today! YAY ME! Hey you wanna come video-tape it? SO EXCITING!'
Here's the thing I don't understand. If it is wrong to abort a fetus, then it is wrong to abort a fetus. It cannot be wrong to abort a fetus brought into existance through irresponsibility or a mistake or a slip-through, and yet at the same time perfectly okay to abort a fetus brought into existance by rape or incest, or which just so happens to be somehow impaired or at high-risk.
Why does the 'logic' change?
I'll tell you why it changes for rape victims. Because people at large are more understanding of a woman's desire to get rid of a rape baby. Okay that I understand, but I don't understand where their generally vehement compassion for the unborn goes.
The general consensus seems to be it's okay to kill a fetus if it wasn't your fault. But if it was your fault -in any way- then you should have to deal with it like the rest of us did.
To me this inconsistancy in the logic reveals something.
Abortion isn't a wrong. If we can accept it as sometimes okay based on the circumstances, then we have to accept that each person (woman) has to make a personal decision based on what they and only they know to be their personal circumstances.
Is it right? Wrong? Neither. It's unpleasant.
Another thing I don't get. How often do you eat meat? Why is human life so much more sacred than other forms of animal life?
And yes, I eat meat. It's mostly about survival, and partially about personal preferences. Based on this -for everyone of us meat-eaters- the taking of life is perfectly fine.
Based on a woman's personal circumstances as only she knows and her instinct for survival in a life according to her own preferences, is it not then equally perfectly fine for her to choose to abort what can hardly be defined as a living entity?
If you all have such endless respect for life, then quit eating meat. Make your own personal decisions based on your own chosen values, and you won't sound quite so hatefully hypocritical anymore.
Extremely well said, i agree absolutely!
These long posts full of good sense and sound reasoning remind me of someone I miss now and then.
Keep em coming!
Thank you so much for saying that China Man. (Even if my post was rather rambly, lol.) I miss you guys too.
I gotta acheive a better balance. This stuff you know doesn't pay, but you can't use a whole lot of sarcasm in sales hubs!
I get alot more work done when I don't get sucked into these forums, so I try to avoid the politics and religion. But all work and no play does make Johnny a dull boy, and I don't wanna be like Johnny!
I think fetus is more than just a piece of meat.
"Do you favour abortion? Do you favour rape? Do you favour incest? do u like coke? "
I think human life has its dignity. If you don't like coke, u don't drink it. If u don't like your neighbour u can't kill him. There are laws to protect him. Unfortunately, our own children (you call it a peace of meat or what ever) are killed in the name of planned parenthood.
What is this so-called dignity that you claim humans alone possess? Please define, and explain further why it is this dignity which makes the enforced life of a 1st trimester fetus more important than the lives of all the pigs in the world.
I think the word 'abortion' is such a fancy word that people don't understand what they do. I should have asked the question: Do you favor women to murder her baby because she/her partner don't like to have one.
not unless the baby is due to rape, incest or the mothers life is in danger then the mother should have the option to abort
NO to abortion if the reason is that --- too many children already, financial situation, the father is unknown, the fetus is the product of infidelity, mother is not ready emotionally, physically..
We can all scream and rage and debate endlessly about this topic but in all actuality the choice is ultimately up to the woman. The decision to abort will have been made totally by her for what ever reasons she applies to her life. If this discussion is on the "right" to have a legal abortion we need to look one step back into the past, when abortion wasn't legal and see the results. Abortions carried out on women who for what ever reasons in their lives deemed it necessary by back street "doctors" or worse - women who took desperate measures into their own hands - the result was not only the death of the fetus but to the woman as well. Septic poisioning, uncontrolled bleeding, perferations that left them totally unable to ever again concieve all due to a time of despiration in that womans life. I personally think abortions should only be carried out at a stage prior to the fetus being able to survive outside the womb, beyond that I cannot say I agree. Ultimately though it is the woman who should have the say with as much help in all the factors as the rest of us can provide.
Very true and really the crux of the matter when you get right down to it.
Abortions have been happening for millenia, and will undoubtedly continue to occur, one way or another.
If I'm told that aborting a fetus is killing it, it's not gonna happen. I understand women feel in a bad place with certain circumstances...but to me it makes sense to have it and give it for adoption. unless the health of the mom is at risk.
let God decide if there are too many kids or people on the planet. After all, He plays a role in creating their soul so He must have a plan for them.
I heard that Beethoven was not the first child in his family and that he had a bunch of disabled children before him--I could be wrong.................But my point is:
He is said to be
" He is considered to have been the most crucial figure in the transitional period between the Classical and Romantic eras in Western classical music, and remains one of the most famous and influential composers of all time."
How do you know this is not your child you are aborting? The rich and talented have few children while the poor have many. Either way every child has the potential to be a president, composer, or a Mother Theresa despite their backgroungd.
Please take a moment to watch this video. This is a video by Dr.Bernard Nathanson, a gynecologist who was running an abortion clinic.
I think it explains many of the questions asked in this discussion.
Some people will still be for abortion after this video
because in this day and age, we are allowed to think freely even illogically
We can say 2+2 is 5, or 15, or 5,000,000 because "it's more broad minded, more creative, more free to think 2+2=5."
This is the evilness or the Modernism we live in today.
We've decided that WE can do anything we want. We can kill, we can do whatever WE feel is good for us, no matter about anyone else.
WE are what's important.
And then the we is the unborn baby who cannot fend for itself, who feels terrible pain, and loses it's life.
Even if you are atheist, what this video proves, is that life begins at a very early time and that 1st, 2nd, and 3rd trimester abortions are ALL bad.
Seeing your baby in a bucket of blood like this one woman, made her suicidal- realizing she killed her baby.
People-of all sorts- even doctors and assistants, esp women, are Decieved about the reality of it all. Another women in this video has permanent damage. 7,500 abortions lead to hysteretomy, damaged uterus, terrible infection etc. And women think this is "fredom" when in fact it's against women.
Hear my entire point before you freak out : Being RAPED is NOT a reason to KILL your baby. if you were raped , or whatever your reason is, unless you will die from having a baby, you cannot Morally have this "abortion" I call it baby destuction. Because none of those are REASONS TO MURDER and this film PROVES THAT. So watch it and maybe if your logical you'll agree.
IF YOU WERE RAPED OR WHATEVER, go to therapy and learn how to deal with the situation. Surely I sympathize and feel bad it happened to you but it doesn't give you cause to kill someone because you were raped.
One bad thing does not deserve another. period. You will not understand if you don't watch the video...............These doctors, former abortion doctors realized what they were doing.
What does it take?
What proof or logic that we have does it take? for you to understand?
Do you even care that you are murdering a baby?
What morals do you have then? If you can kill a baby will you kill elderly people, disable people, anyone?
What gives anyone the right to murder? Who CARES if it's a bit inconvenient, does a bit of inconvenience warrant tearing apart and dismembering , and throwing a child that could be born healhily because we now can have healthy babies at 4 or 5 months, maybe less, who survive and live wonderfully, and you are ok with killing, or "aborting" your child up to 7-9 months?
tell me how.
Do you favor abortion?
I favor choice of women. Being born isn't a right and can never be a right. Being born is also NOT a choice.
People are born regardless of their own choosing. A baby or child or fetus cannot have a say or even conscious enough to make said choice.
It's the moral actions people are attacking, using emotional weighted arguments. Yes, science has defined life at conception, however, at conception, there is no consciousness.
Is it killing a life-form? In some manner it is. However, as I said above, being born was NOT your choice. It was the choice of your parents, regardless of what god is claimed to exist.
I am not pro-abortion. I would prefer abortion wasn't used, but to put my preference above that of individual choice/rights is NOT and should never be allowed.
Abortion is a legal medical procedure offered to a woman as a choice or option. No one should be able to tell her otherwise.
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