http://stossel.blogs.foxbusiness.com/20 … -at-10-pm/
People are waking up and have grown tired of these blood sucking public unions sucking the life out of the people that actually produce wealth and value in this country! Government workers are takers, children that never grow ip and can't take care of themselves. It's time to put an end to public service unions! It's time those people got real jobs and started contributing to society!
What, so all the fire-fighters should get a real, productive job?
Maybe they should have to compete with Chinese firefighters.
I would prefer emergency services in my own country to not be outsourced to the cheapest bidder, life saving isn't generally something which should be left to the open market.
Paying more doesn't equal higher quality.
Maybe the Chinese firefighers should get a raise then? Anybody who walks into burning buildings to save stranded people should be treated like kings, instead people sitting in front of screens full of digits are treated like kings. Life savers are the last people who should be subjected to vitriol.
Usually people that get into life saving professions do so because they care about people not because of the pay or the benefits or whether or not they're represented by a union. They should be exposed to the free market like everyone else.
Should we open up the market for the military too? You could outsource Iraq and Afghanistan to China if you want to? Or how about letting some Vietnam vets have another go? Many of those are homeless, would probably work for $15 a day.
And what about police forces? Why not arm some private security gangs and let them charge extortion rackets? Let them take a 10% of drug dealing profits to protect the turf of drug dealers? They do that in South Africa, why not America?
I suspect it has something with you being marginally more 'developed', at least developed financially, rather than intellectually...
People freely choosing to collectively bargaining with management IS the free market. Forbidding collective bargaining is the government inserting its will upon the people.
I know, you're okay with that as long as you think it will benefit your pocketbook.
In the case of government unions the management I'd at the table, and their isn't a profit to be shared, nor is their unfair labor practices to guard against.
We probably all know about the Pa Judge who took kickbacks for sending kids to a privately run jail, but how many of us know that this place was purpose-built for this scam? The "privatization" of Luzerne Co. youth detention functions resulted in making everyone who was involved rich, except Luzerne County itself, which ended up with the bill.
Oh yes, the losers were also kids with minor offenses who were jailed for months or years in order to keep the detention center full. One later committed suicide and his mother's rant was caught by TV cameras -- this is how this scam became so well publicized.
Private contractors don't work for free, and they need oversight by non-political independent boards. Greed isn't found only in public unions and, as in the case of "Judge" Ciavarella and friends, it can be very costly on many levels.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/BJA/topics/Ple … ckback.pdf
Isn't the judge part of government? Private industry doesn't do these things on their own... it's collusion with government.
Judges judge, they don't govern.
Some gov't functions can be and are, privatized. Too often privatization is looked on as a trough to fill up at and not a money saving procedure. The recipients of these contracts are too often tied to politicians through "campaign donations" (bribes).
Unions have done good...and bad, for our economy. They keep power balanced for the workers but like any organization, there can be corruption also.
Giving unfettered power to anti-union big business seems to be the aim in Wisc., not budget balancing. Like all simplistic remedies, it's short sighted and will solve little. Problems need to be addressed with rational strategies, not blind ideology.
The unions in Wisc aren't workers for big business its government workers which shouldn't even be allowed to unionize.
Maybe all workers should be paid by giving them a Sue Lowden chicken, like the doctors.
See what happens when ideology trumps intelligence?
I have no idea what you're talking about! Public service unions would be fine IF there was representation of the employer at the negoiating table. I can guarantee if the unions were using dues to support republicans there would be an outcry by the left for justice! Indeed the left was outraged by the SCOTUS decision to allow corporations to contribute unlimited funds to candidates but for some reason thinks unions influence is fine ... this even though only 12% of Americans are union and the bulk of them are govt workers.... basically taxpayer money confiscated to support democrats!
Public union PACs do indeed fund pols friendly to them. Now, we all know about the Wisconsin Walker Phoney Phonecall, Koch Bros, etc, but here's another: (bear w/me a moment)
"The Wisconsin Democracy Campaign says Walker received $8,000 last September from mine developer Christopher Cline, owner of Gogebic Taconite, which has an option to lease the mineral rights on land in Iron and Ashland counties. The review shows Walker also received $2,000 from John Dickinson II, president of Cline Resources and Development."
http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/wis … r-campaign
Do you really feel that Gov Walker is to be trusted to deal fairly with unions in light of where his $ comes from? Money corrupts politics and the solution often advanced is to deprive the OTHER side of their money.
For all sides -- get the lobbyists banned, get campaign donations capped, jail those who can't abide by the rules...then conversations like this won't happen.
I think the difference is obvious or at least it should be.
That money was given from the donors own funds.
They did not take MY money and give it to someone else.
Once an employee is paid for their services, that money is theirs, not yours.
Public workers are paid with tax money public money and the union dues ( at least in WI) is deducted right from their pay by the state and deposited in the unions account... I don't think you can find a more obvious example of corruption.
If you're a junior executive for a drug company, your $ comes from your employer, who gets it from Ins companies, who get it from their clients, who get it from a lot of sources, including taxpayers.
OK, where does the trail stop. How far down the line do you own the right to say where "your" money goes? Maybe taxpayers think drug companies are paid too much. Should you mail them back some of your pay?
Let's just say when you are paid for your labor, that pay is yours.
If tax payers think drug companies charge too much they can just refuse to buy or buy a competitors product or generic or buy on line from Mexico or Canada (if that were legal) but tax payers don't have a choice and for the most part union members don't have a choice to join or not or pay dues or not or to contribute those dues to democrats or not. Everything about this arrangement flies in the face of freedom.
That is true enough, but if they are paid that money agreed upon through collective bargaining arrangements then I should be represented.
Governor Walker is seeking to do just that.
You'll never ban Lobbyists... but we do need a government that says NO! States have a bit more power than feds (or are supposed to) so they may subsidize a private corporation if the people of their state will benefit but the feds should NEVER be involved in such an arrangement... this is what is happening now with earmarks... theta always some way to justify that spending though it's rare those projects ever benefit ALL Americans.
Wow. I actually agree with this post.
Hey...wait a minute...are you really LaLo or her good twin??
Same with Gvr Brewer over in Az...she took stimulus funds to give to the for-profit prisons while people die waiting for organ transplants...cause she can't afford them.
That is beyond despicable.
I would agree with this statement, it's unfortunate, from reading this thread so far, we wouldn't be on the same pages, as far as, what or who, exactly we were talking about.
As interesting as your above statement seems, it appears as distortion.
This is ridiculous.
Those people contribute more to society as a whole than you do whenever you open your mouth to speak or utter words. I know it's hard for you to realize that, but if it's "parasites" you're really after, then I would suggest you figure out how to deal with the level of ignorance contained within each individual and why is that the level of ignorance is where it is to begin with?
Then, you might actually have a grasp on what you're talking about to start with. Other than that, you're just blowing smoke.
Firefighters, teachers and lawyers (yes, there are lawyers employed by the state) should "get a real job"?
Oh okay. Have fun when your children can't get an education anymore. Well, I guess you'll be more worried about your house being a big pile of ashes anyway.
When I saw the title of this thread 'are the parasites killing the host?' I thought, great, this'll be a sensible debate about outsourcing all our jobs to other countries to the point where so few people are left in employment that there is no longer any money to buy all the imports. Now that would be a debate worth having. Amazing how mis-leading these forum thread titles can be.
You could start such a thread and I'd be happy to comment.
Amanda, it's odd that you would think that, considering the parasite/host metaphor that the OP used. It is not commonly the case that parasites kill the host by leaving it and finding food elsewhere. ;->
Hi Aya, now you've confused me. If the West is the host, and the BRIC countries are the parasites in terms of our money and jobs, then surely the parasites have a vested interest in keeping things moving along?
Amanda, I may be confused about what you are talking about. Surely you don't think that the employers are parasites when they leave? A typical parasite is a flea. A typical host is a dog. Dogs don't complain when fleas leave them in order to prey on another animal.
People are unhappy when employers leave for places where they get taxed less, because employers feed people. So a parasite analogy doesn't work for the circumstances you describe.
So in fact what you are saying is that the parasite gets upset when the dog leaves it behind....
Maybe a symbiotic relationship describes it better. The BRIC countries need the client countries, but there has to be a balance. And it isn't just about taxation. It's also about cheap labour, and an inequality in the cost of living between the client countries and the supplier countries.
Don't you think that cost of living is closely indexed to level of taxation?
I don't have any information about the level of taxation in China and India, but I suspect that labour, food and housing are cheaper because people expect less in terms of worldly possessions. Also people work hard, often from a young age, in conditions which would probably not be tolerated in the West.
Why care to comment if you have no knowledge ? Is that how you form opinions - on mere conjectures and suspicions? Or do you care about facts?
Sidd, I certainly care about facts. I have seen any number of news items and documentaries about child labour in poor countries turning out cheap goods for the West. I don't have links to hand, though I'm sure they're easily found on Google. What I have never seen, however, is any indication of what taxation systems are in place in these countries. If you have good information about this, please enlighten me. I'm keen to know more, but at this moment, don't have a lot of time to research a thorough reply to Aya's assertion regarding taxation.
You have to note the author as well as the title.
Very true Ron! I'll remember that next time
You expect anything else from someone who calls herself love then spends her entire day spewing vitriolic lies online?
The only one spewing lies and vitriol here is you Ron.
"You expect anything else from someone who calls herself love then spends her entire day spewing vitriolic lies online?"
You forgot RHETORIC and CIVILITY.
Your Obamagod will be angry and expect a sacrifice.
But not from you.
So be happy.
You're quite welcome.
How's the wife and kids?
Gerbils frisky today?
I wonder sometimes if the author of some of these threads are americans. A lot of these threads are unamerican. In many cases the threads are anti-american goverment, anti-american people, and just plain anti- american. If these people are successful in dismanaling the american society, where do they expect to live in the world. They don't like nothing about america, but call themselves americans. I don't understand them, what does conservatives want? Maybe they want to be alone.
weird topic really. I think maybe we can judge how hard people work and how much they deserve to be paid on a case by case basis. I am guessing there are some who are overpaid and others who work their tails off. The social workers I worked with, who were all union members, often worked 80 hours a week despite being paid for 36 I believe. Their real wage per hour was really quite low. When the economy is struggling it seems everyone gets a little nastier. In the words of Rodney King "Can't we... aww forget it.
If government workers like police, teachers, firefighters and so on are parasites, who, then, is the host?
Taxpayers! Don't get me wrong I appreciate all of those people and what they do but it's the unions they are FORCED to join that is the real parasite!
No one is FORCED to accept a union job. As you all like to say when management screws its employees, they can just go find another job, right?
No but union membership is mandatory in these government positions... where is the ability for people to act freely when they are forced into joining a union? How is this right and proper for a government job?
Think hard, now. When management tells an employee, sorry, you're not going to make more than X number of dollars, then that employee can choose to stay or go elsewhere. That's that wonderful free market you conservatives idolize.
Similarly, when an employee is told it is a requirement of a particular job that union dues be paid, then that employee can choose to stay or go elsewhere.
Are you in favor of the first but not the second? If so, how can you possibly reconcile that?
So, you think that the lead swingers, the skivers who have plenty of time to bull their bosses and negotiate higher wages should be allowed to do so whilst the ones who are grafting so hard that they don't have the time to spend sucking up to the bosses should remain on low pay?
First the question was all inclusive. Anytime you ask the general public to answer a very broad question you're going to get every scenario that is a reasonable exception - tossed back in your face, ie., firefighters etc.
I think the idea that all our jobs are being exported to the point we wont be able to even buy the imports, is a serious and legitimate concern, as well.
Another HUGE parasite that I haven't seen addressed yet, is the federal government in general. It is just too big.
Congress, now there is a parasite on our backs.
I think it is time we start electing someone new to our local seat at every election. That way, we stop them from building these deep life-long networks where they owe other people favors at our expense. When do WE get a favor?
Its real simple, FLUSH CONGRESS @ every election. Vote for Joe Nobody. Oh.... we Need A Professional Politician? Really? It was the so-called pro's that got us in this mess. You want to elect someone who knows what they are doing? I say - none of them know what the heck they are doing, so elect the little guy, at least he is not a pro at lying and screwing over the people. And by the time he figures it out - he gets flushed.
Parasites? How about the Wall Street tycoons who walk away with multi-million dollar bonuses for destroying competitive businesses, closing them down and laying everybody off?
Yep and what about the bankers....
(sorry, did I miss the 'W'!)
Examples? They usually end up making business more efficient and free up capital for investment creating even more jobs!
Yes, just like low taxes on the wealthy have created so many jobs in the past 10 years.
Privatize the armed forces. Stop paying them anything and allow them to earn money by taking it from whoever they feel like pointing a gun at. It would save a fortune and reduce government spending by about 19% at a stroke. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_b … ted_States
The downside is that the nearest and easiest person for them to point a gun at would be you and they would take EVERYTHING you have.
Outsource government. It would be far cheaper to have a President and congress based in India or China and you have to wonder if they would be less concerned about supporting the lobby groups who currently buy their own laws with political contributions.
The countries where you outsourced government to would, no doubt, have their own agenda but it would be no different to what you have now where elected officials seem to be more concerned with lining their own pockets and the pockets of friends and political paymasters than caring a hoot for their country or the people of their country.
The employees of government are just people like you and me who are working to feed their families. They should not be the target. They just want to do the best they can for their loved ones and their kids. If you think that is a bad thing then maybe you should live in a dictatorship.
I am 60 and obviously your don't remember why unions were started in the first place. Before unions people could be fired at will with no recourse. You could be threatened with being fired for reject advances from your plant worker and had to work terrible hours or fear losing you job. Unions were created to protect the powerless. They make the playing field even.
Everyone has the right to protect their jobs their salaries and the families. My husband worked a job with not union and they started out with one salary. The boss decided that he was not as experienced as he should be and dropped his salary, and then dropped his salary again.
You seem to be parroting what they are saying on Fox news. Not really fair or balanced reporting. Provocative question though!
2besure: When the working class turns against unions and blame union for the recession, they- are mis guided. Why was there ever a need for labor union will not get serious discussion here. Here there is more parroting than on Fox news.
OK. So we have covered all the bad things people on every side can do within business, governments, unions, and free markets...so what is the logical conclusion here?
People need to dig deep and get to their core beliefs...what is ultimately right and wrong! what are the rules that are just and true...what is the natural order to the universe...where is it that each individual person needs to change, come clean, with reconciling living according to the Laws of the Universe...what are those Laws...???
THIS IS THE POINT THAT NEEDS TO BE OPENED UP AND COMMUNICATED!!!
The worst of the worst of humanity wants those of us that don't understand how they are manipulating "the little people" to line their pockets, to just keep on bickering and taking sides...in doing so this facilitates their continued worst of the worst!
What do you ultimately believe? and how can we work together to come up with ways to achieve a healthy society. There are things that all sides may never come to share, but that does not keep us from being healthy and ethical in how things are run. We need to stop pulling each other down into the abyss.
Get your spiritual house in order, where does love, peace,joy abundance, and caring for one another come to a common understanding.
Conservatives have some aspects right just as liberals do.
and there are wrongs on all sides as well.
for instance. it is perfectly logical for the unions to accept that they can't just keep asking for raises when the economy is in the tank. If they just admitted that, and said they for now won't expect that...isn't that a timely concession?
and the state governments trying to keep the unions in their place and think about others and not just themselves would stop taking actions that are too aggressive to change things...isn't that a timely concession?
Look at this...the one side is doing exactly what they have accussed the other side of doing...do you see it???
If the little people keep chasing their own tails...who wins?
To me it seems more like they are taking the milk herd to the slaughter house. They are also known to saw off limbs they are sitting on. Interesting blindness to reality they exhibit.
"Maybe they should have to compete with Chinese firefighters."
Lady, describe to me how this would actually happen?
How can American firefighters compete with Chinese firefighters? Being from California, which seasonally suffers from a multitude of wildfires, I suppose you would want us to wait for the Chinese to ship their trucks, equipment, and personnel over?
With that type of logic you would make a great President....or maybe part-time governor of Alaska...
It is ridiculous to compare the newly established ability of corporations to pay as much as they want into elections to unions.... Let's see....who can give more...Walmart, or the SEIU?...or perhaps the UFW?
Reality is hard to see when one has blinders on....
You are correct, Lady, that union membership has declined tremendously...but it would be incorrect, flawed, and irresponsible to somehow build the connotation that unions are fewer because the "American people" want it that way...
This is not the case... Let us speak to the former union workers who have had their jobs sent to Mexico or China... Let us speak with the formerly unionized truck drivers in this nation, who used to be able to send their kids to college in hopes of a greater future...the American Dream...
But, when Reagan deregulated the trucking industry, the trucking companies with employess (who could unionize) were disbanded....and the era of the independent contractor began...which we still suffer under...
Instead of paying an hourly wage, the bosses now only pay by the "turn"...or by how many trailers one can haul in one day.... This cheapening of labor has caused numerous problems...
1) Accidents...for now truck drivers are going faster and faster to try to get as many trailers in as possible....for it is harder and harder to make the same pay that they once did at the hourly rate..
2) All the costs have been passed down to the truck driver... Instead of driving a company owned, insured, and serviced truck, these men and women have to carry the burden themselves... Just think what this means when gas prices hit 5 dollars a gallon this summer... The increased costs to the drivers means that these men and women cut more corners, risk much more, and even break laws (like the 8 hour work day regulation) in order to make just a percentage of what U.S. truckers used to make up to the late 1970's...
3) The degradation of pay and benefits combined with the increased personal costs and risks to individual truck drivers has driven American drivers out of the industry... But the demand for truckers has only increased... This has led to the recruitment of drivers who are undocumented...and for initiatives by ("coincidentally") "conservative" politicians and pundits to bring Mexican drivers into the country to drive goods...
This is called the "Race to the Bottom"....not because unions are a threat....not because they cause so much debt, but because those profiting the most from industries like goods movement, are only looking at their profit margin...
This is the same mentality that Colonial and Early American elites held over the indentured servants, poor freedmen and others.... This is why there were so many revolts and protests by the lower classes against the propertied, resource monopolizing, and politically manipulating wealthy....
This is what led to the very first American unions...way back in the early 1700's....and the desire of workers to safeguard their pay and benefits has not changed since....
There is more where this comes from, but how about some thoughts?
Unions are dissappearing because there is no longer a need for them. As you say America has changed we are not the same country as we were during the industrial revolution. Unions have become a liability to workers like another tax paid because one has no choice and the money used to line the pockets of union leaders. In any case I don't have a problem with unions in the private sector, they will eventually price themselves out of the market which like it or not is global now... so union workers are competing with Chinese working for 2 dollars a day. But public service unions are nothing but a group colliding to fix the price of labor and the government representatives that negoiate with them are complicit in the deal taking a portion of the union dues in exchange to give union leadership what they want... the tax payer be dammed! And where is the profit in government? Are the unions asking for a piece of the earnings? NO! Because there aren't any! No earnings and no incentive to control costs just the tax payer a resource to be raped at will by these greedy blood sucking scum! Parasites!
Lady Love: Where is the profit in Big Business and Wall Street? The Tax payers whom you care so much about their taxes being wasted, pay taxes. Much more taxes per percentage of their income than the rich and powerful. Where are the jobs produced by tax breaks on profits on and off shore?
Not only that, there is a ton of "socialism" given for private industry.
Dana Rorbacher,a Republican, was livid that the Long Beach docks were up-graded by tax-payer monies to help companies leave the USA for more profitable pastures over-seas.
They keep their monies in off-shore accounts to avoid taxes, pay dirt wages, then sell us their wares at a huge mark-up.
It's robbery really, but they call it Capitalism, so that makes it OK.
Lady, again..it is easy to spout opinion...but it is harder to look at facts...
The warehouse workers who are unpacking, repacking, and loading up the goods headed to Walmart, Target, Home Depot, J.C. Penny, and the rest want to unionize...
I have seen this with my own eyes...this is not opinion...
Of course, I think one would have to be very familiar with the rapid increase of "temp" status labor...
Carwash workers want to unionize...
Drayage truck drivers want to unionize...
The "unions are not needed anymore" argument is fraudulent...
So let them unionize! Nothing us stopping them... except many will lose their jobs, prices rise and sales will decline!
Don't tell me about how people want unions, they dojobsthey want jobs! I know, I volunteered to drive mirgrant workers to their union meetings... that's right they aren't paid little enough so they need a union to pay dues to! Believe me if they had a choice they'd rather keep that money!
Nothing has stopped them? This shows how little you know...
I suppose you don't know much about the National Labor Relations Act....I can assume this based on your response....
Temp workers, like those working full time hours (not temporary jobs) laboring in distribution centers face daunting challenges to unionization, which is why the Employee Free Choice Act was so important for them....
Independent contractors are prohibited from unionizing....which means the truck drivers I was writing about have no chance to organize....
Laws written by those opposed to labor keep these men and women from organizing....
If they were able to unionize, however, they would not lose their jobs....
The nation's in and outflow of goods will still need to be packed and delivered.... Cars will still need to be washed....
Do some research Lady, instead of just babbling.... You can't be taken seriously until you do....your responses simply show how uninformed you really are...
I am an independent contractor Lady....
It is one thing to just look at words, it is another to see what they mean..
I would like for you, Lady, to weigh the difference of being a truck driver employed by a company compared to being self-employed....
Realize that the Reagan Administration's deregulation of the trucking industry is akin to what is going on in Wisconsin... While currently a minority viewpoint (against collective bargaining) is using political majority (in Republican party affiliation alone) to undermine the ability of public workers to keep their collective bargaining rights..
In trucking's case, this same concept was used on the federal level to go after private sector unions... Either way, it is government being used to take away rights from American workers...
I think, Lady,that you should see where the stuff you buy at Walmart and Target comes from...at least where it enters the United States.... Come out here to Los Angeles...I can take you on an extensive tour of the Ports of Long Beach and Los Angeles.... You can talk to truck drivers themselves..and I can take you through the communities, like the City of Commerce, that they travel through to reach the distribution centers in the Inland Empire (for local consumption) and to the intermodal terminals, where trailers are packed onto rail cars so that you can make your "low price" purchase....
Take a walk in the real, Lady... Maybe the Koch brothers can subsidize this fact finding mission..
Deregulation is a good thing! What I'm sure you would like to see is government controlled prices and wages ... that's fine but its not capitalism nor is it American.
I fail to see how it is a minority in WI imposing their will on a majority since Walker was elected on a significant margin, similar to that of Obama's and yet did you complain when he shoved his unconstitutional health care bill down the throats of a majority of objecting Americans? It seems you have no problem supporting socialist policies and finding ways to justify them and deny others freedom... suspending some collective bargining agreements with public service workers is bad but forcing workers to belong to the union and pay dues in order for them to keep their job and feed their family and put a roof over their head is bad!
Actually deregulation is how we got here.The only union examples anyone hears are the worst cases,nobody says anything about the guy shlepping his way along on 40k a year,or is that too much maybe 3.35 an hour would suit every better. All of these contracts were agreed upon and now the do gooders want to cry foul and weasel out. B.S. Time for a flat tax across the board personal and business,if they say they cant afford to do business here then guess what,they cant sell here either.
Thank you for your grand generalization non-answer...
Stay in the clouds...the rest of us will work with reality..
On a sidenote....I'm getting ready to head out to my first work appointment, and I've decided to turn on Glenn Beck...just another random sampling of a loon's ramblings...
And sure enough...he does not disappoint...
Now he's talking about the doomsday scenario of the "Middle East" collapsing (only fools work in such grandiose terms)..and how Russia will control all of Europe...
Beck works so hard to appear intelligent....he's ditched the monkey act for a monkey suit and glasses....
But for those of us who look beyond appearances...Beck again proves to be a bufoon...
Lady...I look to the profit made by management....and then I look at what is reasonable. Many believe that professional athletes are overpaid...and I am sure many will also quickly criticize their unions for strapping down private enterprise...but when one compares the amount of money being made by the sponsors, by the league, the players deserve every penny...and (especially for football players, in my book) probably rate better medical care, especially after they have left their active careers...
My second job was at a Vons grocery store.. Back then Vons owned Safeway, and then along the way Safeway bought out Vons...but anyway, the hourly employees are all covered by the United Food and Commercial Workers...
Back then I was "conservative".... My parents and church had indoctrinated me well... Unions were the devil, and so were those Democrat liberal communists....but I needed a job.. So, off to Vons I went, and into the union I went..against my will.
When the union wanted us to wear pins on our shirts informing customers to vote "no" on a certain proposition...I used white-out to change my pin's message to "yes"...
After two years or so I switched over to Sam's Club...the Walmart warehouse subsidiary...
Through comparing my experiences I was able to understand the benefit of the organization... Beyond the abuses that I faced, I witnessed as, for example, highly capable women were passed over time and time again for promotions..
Of course, Walmart recently was sued over such a discrimination issue, was it not?
My time spent in the Marines reinforced my respect and appreciation for freedom and representation..
I have come, over time, to realize that our places of business need to reflect the ideas of representation and democracy that our nation is supposed to uphold..
Now I will not cross a picket line...
Lady, I am sure we can both agree that corruption exists both in the private and public spheres... Yet, looking at the growing disparity between those who have wealth and those who don't and that rate of change points to a need for increased regulation of some type, whether governmental or not.
The "worker center" model is working, and can be expanded.. Innovation will find a way....
In the meantime, while the wages and ability to realize the "American Dream" fades....
"Corporate executives, in reality, are not suffering at all. Their pay, to be sure, dipped on average in 2009 from 2008 levels, just as their pay in 2008, the first Great Recession year, dipped somewhat from 2007. But executive pay overall remains far above inflationadjusted levels of years past. In fact, after adjusting for inflation, CEO pay in 2009 more than doubled the CEO pay average for the decade of the 1990s, more than quadrupled the CEO pay average for the 1980s, and ran approximately eight times the CEO average for all the decades of the mid-20th century.
American workers, by contrast, are taking home less in real weekly wages than they took home in the 1970s. Back in those years, precious few top executives made over 30 times what their workers made. In 2009, we calculate in the 17th annual Executive Excess, CEOs of major U.S. corporations averaged 263 times the average compensation of American workers. CEOs are clearly not hurting."
Exerpts from: http://www.ips-dc.org/reports/executive_excess_2010
http://www.epi.org/economic_snapshots/e … _20060621/
Your constant whining about fairness reveals your motives... you're envious of those that gave done better than you and you think with all your education and experience you DESERVE more... well it doesn't work that way in a free society, thank God, and hopefully we will always be free and prevent the sick twisted progressives from ever getting the power they had in 2008 again!
So much for your freedom LL, what about others freedom?
I mean, read what you write, . . where's the freedom for people to be progressive or even sick and twisted progressive? no, you don't mean freedom at all do you, you mean just the opposite, every body good little republican clones with nobody thinking for themselves!
You can be as progressive as you wish and I reserve the right to regard that philosophy as EVIL. However if you wish to impose your philosophy upon me and others by force you will have a battle on your hands! This is what I don't understand about you progressives you INSIST on forcing others to live under your ideology when you are perfectly free to live under it yourself with like minded people... take a look at the quakers... you could start your own society somplace... and if it's better than what we have people will flock to it. The problem is you and all your liberal friends know it wont work unless it's imposed by force!!
Scuse me, who's forcing who? You are the one forcing others to live under your ideology.
You are the one constantly spouting evil words against anybody who does not share your narrow view of life.
Well said. I haven't seen a single liberal in this thread call anyone who disagrees with them "evil", unlike lady_love.
You're very new aren't you.
Lady said "I reserve the right to regard that philosophy as EVIL", she didn't call him anything.
She said his philosophy was evil. His philosophy is that of a liberal. Comprehension: learn it.
You posted, "I haven't seen a single liberal in this thread call anyone who disagrees with them "evil", unlike lady_love." You don't seem to understand the difference between calling anyone "evil" and branding a philosophy "evil". English, learn it well.
I'm sorry you think calling a liberal philosophy "evil" isn't equally ridiculous.
It's her opinion and she should be allowed to express it.
And my opinion is that she's ridiculous and her opinion is ridiculous. Isn't free speech just swell?
One is considered a personal attack, the other is not. If you don't realize that you will get banned. You should learn the rules of the forum.
Sure!And your entitled to your opinion however ridiculous it might be
Lol you libs don't believe in free speech... those that call you out on your evil philosophy are labeled haters! I'm not forcing you to live under anything except individual liberty ... im sorry if you think that's bad.
Forcing me to have a baby by order of the State is not freedom, it's tyranny.
Of the worst sort. Of which should I not have more freedom if not my own self!!!
Stop playing that freedom game. It's all lip-service with you.
How about a reality check??
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … z1FMw8f9ju
Do you want to out-law abortion, or not?
It's a simple question....no need of all that propaganda baloney. This is PERSONAL.
The Hyde Amendment...Obama re-signed it.
So--why don't you leave women alone?
Let them decide their private life.
One battle does not win a war.
Why don't you volunteer at a hospital and open yourself to the possibility that newborn life is precious?
Or volunteer to crochet little blankets to wrap miscarried babies in so that their mothers can hold them and say goodbye and take the blanket home to keep and remember?
There is another way of thinking about life.
I don't mean to upset you, but there really is another way to think about it.
Your war on women?
I'm well aware of that. Have witnessed it first-hand, and may I say....you should be ashamed!
I know what life is. It's what you people destroy with white phosphorous bombs.
Tell me---can you knit booties for babies with no feet? Deformed bodies? Heads out-sized as to be monstrous? That's what happens to "life" under AmerIsrael rule.
Depleted Uranium. Google it, then come tell me about destroying life.
Before abortion was made legal, how was it funded? How was cost affected?
Well, I'm not a liberal so where does that leave you?
If I want to belong to a trade union isn't that an individual liberty?
If I want to be a socialist, isn't that an individual liberty?
If I want to be a communist isn't that an individual liberty?
If I want to live in the woods and kill anybody who approaches me, isn't that an individual liberty?
If I want to exploit as many people as I can, isn't that an individual liberty?
I have no evil philosophy, I believe that everybody should have opportunities, even if they need a leg up to be in that position.
I agree with you Lady that the public unions have to go. The unions are fighting hard because they know that they have the Dummycrats by the balls. Without union money, the Dums would have a lot less money for their politics. And by unions, I really mean union management. They want to keep their power and money and not really looking after the little union guy/gal.
Without unions, Dems would have no real money of consequence. That is why the Rethugs have to bust them up.
Look at it this way...they (R's) already have most of the money in the country and the Supreme Court....now they control the agenda-making arm of American politics (House), which to them is helping corporate America...all they need now is more lieing propaganda and scare tactics about unions to get rid of the Dems completely.
Which is what they want. Total control. Not gvt. of the people....gvt. of the Corporations!
It's really simple if you think about it....
This is NOT patriotism for America, or American ideals of freedom blah blah blah...it's a power grab for it all!!!
And the 1st people they hurt were women and children....does that tell you something about their values??? It does me.
Rather than saving women and children from drowning..they are the first to be thrown over-board!!!
Lady's writing gets more ludicrous all the time...
I just look and count all the ridiculous threads she is creating complaining about Obama...
And I am the whiner......
I call this "projection" syndrome...
Keep looking at yourself in the mirror Lady...and thanks again for your non-answer to serious issues....
I write to you communicating importance, and you can't raise your head out of the dirt clod....
You don't write, you ramble and drone on and on... it's clear you are a leftist ideologue and would favor a society constructed by a central authority of ruling elites to impose YOUR view of fairness and justice.
I'm pretty sure he just thinks lefties are cooler that righties.
Walker Explodes Union Lies on 'Meet the Press'
By Newsmax Wires
Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker says he won't cave in to union and Democratic demands that he compromise on his effort to curb employee benefit programs. He also vows he won't "kick the can down the street" when it comes to dealing with his state's fiscal woes.
Appearing Sunday on NBC's "Meet the Press" with David Gregory, Walker laid out his plan to save his state from fiscal bankruptcy while destroying several false claims about his legislation, which Senate Democrats are delaying by refusing to appear for a final vote.
Among the significant issues covered during his "Meet the Press" interview, Walker:
* Denied he is destroying public employee unions.
His proposed law still allows public employee unions to exist and engage in collective bargaining for their wages. The state denies the unions the use of collective bargaining to seek pension and health benefits.
* Claimed that unions are not acting in good faith.
Public employee unions have been claiming they will accept cutbacks in their benefits, but Walker says they can't be trusted and have been rushing through contracts that give their members extravagant benefit packages.
Walker told Gregory: "We [have] seen that actions speak louder than words. For us to balance the $3.6 billion deficit we have — but not only now, but to ensure we can continue to do that in the future so our kids don't inherit these same dire consequences — we've got to have assurances. And over the past two weeks, even after they made those promises, we've seen local union after local union rush to their school boards, their city councils, their technical school boards and rush through contracts in the past two weeks that had no contributions to the pension and no contribution to health care. And, in fact, in one case in Janesville, they actually were pushing through a pay increase. Actions do speak louder than words."
* Explained that the law helps local governments curb union demands.
Walker said: "This bill precisely helps local governments, and it's effective once it passes. In fact, we're, we're facing a $3.6 billion deficit. Like nearly every other state across the country, we're going to have to cut more than a billion dollars from our schools and local governments. You know, in New York and California, where there are Democrats for governors, they're doing that. The difference here is, with this budget repair bill, we give those schools and local governments more — almost a billion and a half dollars worth of savings. So the savings they get from our budget repair bill exceed the amount."
* Said public employee unions are making unusual demands on taxpayers.
Walker said: "In Wisconsin, a great example of that is, we have, in many of our school districts, a requirement through collective bargaining contracts that they have to buy their health insurance from a company that's owned by our state teacher's union, WA Trust. Because of that, it costs them up to $68 million more than if they could just buy it from the state employee healthcare plan. Those are real costs about putting real money in the classroom instead of into these collective bargaining agreements."
* Pointed out his new plan is consistent with how the federal government handles many employees.
Walker explained: "Well, our proposal is less restrictive than the federal government is today. Under Barack Obama, he presides over a federal government where most federal employees do not have collective bargaining for, for benefits, nor for pay. So what we're asking for is something less restrictive than what the federal government has."
* Explained why police and firemen are exempt from his new law.
Walker said: "We saw two weeks ago, when this debate first started, teachers here in Madison walked off the job for three days. Now, that was an inconvenience for a lot of parents. I know I've got two public — kids in public school. Anytime you have a disturbance like that, it's an inconvenience. But that, contrasted to the fact that even if there was one jurisdiction across the state where firefighters or police officers weren't on the job in full force, I can't afford to have a fire or crime committed where there's a gap in service. And it ultimately just boils down to public safety."
Walker concluded by telling Gregory that he stands by his statement, "This is our moment, this is our time to change the course of history."
Walker told Gregory: "It's one of those where, for year after year after year, not just the last governor, but governors before, legislatures before, have kicked the can. They've taken one-time fixes to push the budget problems off into the future. We can't do that. We're broke. Like nearly every other state across the country, we're broke. And it's about time somebody stood up and told the truth in this state and said, 'Here's our problem. Here's the solution,' and acted on it. Because, if we don't, we fail to make a commitment to the future. Our children will face even more dire consequences than what we face today."
© Newsmax. All rights reserved.
Hmmmm, I heard differently.
I heard that he gave corporations a 140 million $ gift that increased the deficit.
I heard that he borrowed money to balance his budget, that will have to be paid back,and will increase the deficit.
And I heard that he gave the cops and fire-fighters a pass because they supported his campaign!
Walker wouldn't know the truth if it bit him in his manicured behind. IMO
Companies leave or don't come to a state where they can't make money. Towns and cities and states attract business and jobs by creating a business friendly climate. Works every time.
City and state governments can't just print money like the federal government does. It actually has to be real.
It isn't a case of "giving" corporations money. It is a case of tax breaks and incentives to locate their enterprises in certain areas. This can mean things like school programs to train the kind of workers the company needs also.
Socialists don't understand business. They think wealth is created in the sweat of poor people and rich people go around stealing sweat off of poor people.
Umm, NOOOO--Rorbacher was mad because it was "socialism" that paid for all the work in upgrading those docks.
Then the companies took advantage of it for their own personal gain.
And NOW they come around deriding socialism!
If you don't like it, don't take advantage of it.
And don't work to destroy it after it has already helped YOU.
...just more proof of the media reporting...who are we to believe?
surely, not taking sides is best for everyone...how are we to get the Truth...the spin masters are in control
striving to find the true answers and doing the Buddha/Christ peace thing is my answer
Yes, I heard that Walker was boarding up windows AT THE PEOPLE'S HOUSE so that people inside couldn't get food?
WOW...he's just like Ghadafi!
If you can't join em...kill em.Or something like that...agree with me, or die!
Keerist...who couldn't see this coming tho? Bush on steroids!
And you aren't Lady?
Again...projection syndrome rearing its ugly head...
I am not rambling, Lady...I leave behind very credible links, and give you real life examples....while you continue to drone on about your own ideology.... Perhaps you should enlist in the military and lose your freedoms...lose your voice and your choice...and perhaps then you will appreciate the true meaning of these words...
When confronted with evidence, you continue to turn a blind eye, or respond with stereotypes and generalizations...not to mention epithets...
Like I told you before....come out here to California....down into Los Angeles....my neighborhood... Then you can speak with the truck drivers, the warehouse workers, and those who are struggling to get by economically so that you can buy your cheap Asian made garbage at Walmart....
But wait....this would require you to do some actual thinking...
I think the reality would probably be too much for you to handle..
Credible links that have nothing to do with the subject at hand which is the public service union anti trust corruption funneling tax payer money to democrat candidates so they in turn can funnel back ridiculous pay and benefits... then you want to talk about independent contractor truckers and cheap goods from Walmart and how its hard for warehouse workers to live!! Let me tell you its hard for EVERYBODY to make ends meet especially when 6 months of your labor is used to fund government! How much more Mike... how much more do I have to pay so the warehouse worker in LA doesn't have to work a second job or overtime and has cash for his medical marijuana? ??
It'll only add cents to the cost of things you buy and probably much less than paying benefits through taxation.
You don't get it!! You think I should have to pay to support someone else?? Did you not see I am already working half the year to support gov! NOT A PENNY MORE!!
Yes, I get it all right, you would rather have people working for low wages than pay your way!
OK your money can go to fund the 2 false flag wars your boy George started!
Don't mean to offend, but this one made me laugh!:
"It struck me as ridiculous the fact that working people in the USA are so opposed to unionization. Who the hell do they think is going to represent their positions at the bargaining table? Politicians? Corporate board members? Wake up you stupid, teabag dipping, jerk f%$ks"
--A fellow American.
Wasn't one of the most prosperous times in this country during higher union enrollment? Say from the fifties to the early eighties.A lot of people making a decent living spend a considerable amount of money. A few extremely wealthy people only spend so much then they sit home and count the rest.
I've just been reading these posts to see how the problem is being addressed. The problem, as I see it, is that there is not enough money to pay for those things that have been agreed to concerning government employee pay and pensions. When times are good, and many people are working, then the government's coffers are overflowing and agreements are made concerning guarantees about pay and pensions. But when times are bad and there is not enough money to meet those "guarantees", then what is to be done?
Potential solutions to get more money are:
- borrow money from someone who will loan it to you
- raise taxes ... equally? just the rich? middle class? business?
Potential solutions to reduce money out flow:
- don't pay interest on any loans
- reduce government employee pay
- issue IOUs
- reduce government employee pension payment
- extend retirement age
- reduce medical benefit amounts
- curtail building projects
- reduce social services; welfare, relief, etc
- privatize functions (no longer government paid)
- tie all of the above to actual amount of money collected.
I believe that all elected politicians and appointed officials pay should be tied to taxes collected and their pay is stopped, not suspended, until a balanced budget is passed. In other words, if a balanced budget is not passed, then Judges, Governor, Senators, Congressmen, etc are not paid until the budget is passed; no back pay, no perks, no overtime. BUT government employees continue to be paid during this time.
But the real problem is "What happened to the good times when a lot of tax money was collected?" It appears that, to make a bigger profit, business sent jobs outside of the area thus reducing the tax base. The chances are pretty good that the increased profit does not equal the loss in tax revenue. The tax base is the American middle class. What is even worse is that the goods being made overseas is destined for the American middle class which now cannot afford to buy because they are not working. So the only ones that came out ahead are the businesses and shareholders at the expense of the American middle class. Even though these people have come out ahead, the resulting loss of services and turmoil will adversely affect them also.
Ahhh...I've gone in a different path. The initial premise is about parasites. If government employees, elected officials, and appointees had their pay, pensions, medical, and perks tied to the amount of taxes collected and a balanced budget, then time would be spent on solving the real problem.
"Are the parasites killing the host?"
No, the Earth will survive us. . . oops, wrong thread apparently. What's this bumf about unions?
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