The Two-State Solution
"I reach out to you as someone who is troubled to see the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians continue apparently without an end in sight.
In fact, there is an end in sight. It's known as the two-state solution--a secure, democratic Israel as the Jewish State alongside an independent Palestinian state..."
Leonard Nimoy in a letter posted at 'Americans for Peace Now'. Read the full at-
http://peacenow.org/leonard_nimoy.html
Nimoy is Jewish and sees the two-state solution as the logical answer.
A proposal will come before the UN this year to create the sovereign country. Why not? This is the political body that created Israel out of thin air. The US will use its Security Council veto. But it seems only recently to have come to the attention of Israel - on this issue the General Assembly can override the Security Council veto of the US.
So the political reality is this. Israel has been giving the UN the finger for years, confident they own the US veto when they need it. Israel has been giving the Palestinians the shaft for decades.
The UN might just cede autonomy and territory to the Palestinians, leaving Israel in a position where they need to make nice with new neighbors.
Expect the flotilla on the way to be allowed unmolested. There are too many countries represented whom Israel can't afford to piss off.Yes the Arab's can give land to the Palistinians and create a state for them outside of the borders of Israel. I agree.
That was simple, wasn't it.Guess what - I think the UN will cede Gaza to the Palestinians. And possibly half of Jerusalem.
The UN created Israel from thin air- the occupants of the territory (pre-WWII) didn't agree any more than Israel will.
Oh, well. Maybe Israel should have paid the UN some respect and negotiated in good faith with the Palestinians. Kinda late now.
This is a thought-provoking post, and I'll be interested to see how the US and the UN deal with it.
The part I have quoted doesn't speak to me, though. What does that first sentence mean?I think I corrected something my impudent spellchecker decided to rewrite.
Ah, yes, that definitely does make sense. Spellcheckers with poltergeist - who knew?
Have research groups checked in to how many Americans would support the two-state solution? I actually think a good number who feel they are supporters of Israel would still see 2SS as a path to peace.I don't think the creation of Israel was ever intended by the UN to be permission for the Jews to do to the Palestinians what the US did to Native Americans.
The expectation was that they would learn to get along. That's not working out too well, and about 25 years ago, the Two-State solution was agreed on, but Israel is trying to back out without admitting they want to welch on the deal.Islam did that to the Palistinians and has not stopped using them as a front-line fighting force against the Jews since. It was not Israel who left them out in the cold. Israel absorbed 850,000 jews who had been expelled from the 7 Arab nations who attacked Israel in 48.
Also they, those 7 Arab nations armies, told the Arabs in Palestine at the time, to leave and they would crush Israel and give the land to the Arabs who, taking their advice left and waited for the death of Israel with glee.
"According to official records of the League of Nations and Arab census figure 539,000 Arabs left Israel at the urging of 7 converging Arab armies so that they would not be in the way of their attack. They promised the fleeing Arabs they would return and move into the Jews' houses after the anticipated successful annihilation of the Jews.
"We know that 850,000 Jews were ejected from the Arab countries where they had lived for hundreds of years. This included successful people whose property and assets, including community assets were immediately confiscated. 750,000 penniless Jews from Arab countries fled to Israel.
"This was a virtual exchange of population. The Jewish refugees were immediately accepted by the new State of Israel. They were provided with shelter (albeit temporary tents) food and clothing.
"The Arab refugees who had migrated to various Arab nations were not similarly well received. They were regarded not as Arab brothers but as unwelcome migrants who were not to be trusted. Squalid refugee camps were set up as showpieces to induce the West's sympathy and kept that way. The UN through UNRWA (UN Relief Agency) provided assistance to the camps when the host country could not or would not. These camps became a training ground for terrorist youth to be targeted at Israel. The host country, like Syria, would provide training, weapons and explosives, but refused to absorb the Arab refugees as equal citizens. Keeping them in misery made them valuable and irreplaceable as angry front line terrorists attacking Israel as proxies for the Arab armies who lost to the Jews on the field of battle in declared wars. The Twin Pillars supporting Arab Muslim society are "Pride and Shame". Losing to the Jews on the battlefield time and again in 6 wars shattered the self perception of the Macho Man.
- Emanuel A. Winston, Middle East analyst and commentator
THE HISTORICAL EVIDENCE:
"Even amidst the violent attacks launched against us for months past, we call upon the sons of the Arab people dwelling in Israel to keep the peace and to play their part in building the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its institutions, provisional and permanent.
"We extend the hand of peace and good-neighborliness to all the States around us and to their people, and we call upon them to cooperate in mutual helpfulness with the independent Jewish nation in its Land. The State of Israel is prepared to make its contribution in a concerted effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East."
- David Ben-Gurion, in Israel's Proclamation of Independence, read on May 14, 1948, moments before the 6 surrounding Arab armies, trained and armed by the British, invaded the day-old Jewish microstate, with the stated goal of extermination.
"The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but, instead, THEY ABANDONED THEM, FORCED THEM TO EMIGRATE AND TO LEAVE THEIR HOMELAND, imposed upon them a political and ideological blockade and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live in Eastern Europe, as if we were condemned to change places with them; they moved out of their ghettos and we occupied similar ones. The Arab States succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people and in destroying their unity. They did not recognize them as a unified people until the States of the world did so, and this is regrettable".
- by Abu Mazen, from the article titled: "What We Have Learned and What We Should Do", published in Falastin el Thawra, the official journal of the PLO, of Beirut, in March 1976
"The first group of our fifth column consists of those who abandon their houses and businesses and go to live elsewhere. . . . At the first sign of trouble they take to their heels to escape sharing the burden of struggle."
- Ash Shalab (Jaffa newspaper), January 30, 1948
"The Arab streets are curiously deserted and, ardently following the poor example of the more moneyed class there has been an exodus from Jerusalem too, though not to the same extent as in Jaffa and Haifa."
- London Times, May 5, 1948
"The refugees were confident that their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab armies would crush the 'Zionist gangs' very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile."
- Monsignor George Hakim, Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee, in the Beirut newspaper Sada al Janub, August 16, 1948
"Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the -Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit.. . . It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades."
- The London weekly Economist, October 2, 1948
"It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa, and Jerusalem."
- Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station, Cyprus, April 3, 1949
"This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boasting of an unrealistic Arab press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of some weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re-enter and retake possession of their country."
- Edward Atiyah (then Secretary of the Arab League Office in London) in The Arabs (London, 1955), p. 183
"The mass evacuation, prompted partly by fear, partly by order of Arab leaders, left the Arab quarter of Haifa a ghost city...By withdrawing Arab workers their leaders hoped to paralyze Haifa.".
- Time, May 3, 1948, p. 25
The Arab exodus, initially at least, was encouraged by many Arab leaders, such as Haj Amin el Husseini, the exiled pro-Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem, and by the Arab Higher Committee for Palestine. They viewed the first wave of Arab setbacks as merely transitory. Let the Palestine Arabs flee into neighboring countries. It would serve to arouse the other Arab peoples to greater effort, and when the Arab invasion struck, the Palestinians could return to their homes and be compensated with the property of Jews driven into the sea.
- Kenneth Bilby, in New Star in the Near East (New York, 1950), pp. 30-31
I do not want to impugn anybody but only to help the refugees. The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab States in opposing Partition and the Jewish State. The Arab States agreed upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem, [Daily Telegraph, September 6, 19481
And that is just a Historic fact. Since then Israel has fought many time against islam to secure it's people and save it's nation. And the actions of those 7 nations is what lays the responsibility for a Palestinian state and its creation, and the welfare of the Palestinians, sqarely on their shoulders.
http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-c … sp#Whathap
As for your American comment, I will not even bother. It is a long involved story and there is plenty of blame to go around. Regardless of what many on the left today think, the Indians were not a bunch of pot smoking peaceful hippies when we arrived. And they instigated as good as they got.
And for a long time the courts in MA and the colonies gave full rights to the Indians. That can be varified by reading old colonial records from the courts of the colonies. They won cases against whites for land, money and many other things. So not all of that was America's fault.I guess the plan here is to throw enough you-know-what against the wall and hope some of it will stick.
It would work on a wingnut forum but not so well here.
"The [Camp David] Accords recognized the "legitimate rights of the Palestinian people", a process was to be implemented guaranteeing the full autonomy of the people within a period of five years. Begin insisted on the adjective "full" to confirm that it was the maximum political right attainable. This full autonomy was to be discussed with the participation of Israel, Egypt, Jordan and the Palestinians. The withdrawal of Israeli troops from the West Bank and Gaza was agreed to occur after an election of a self-governing authority to replace Israel's military government."
Wikipedea - Camp David Accords
In typical form, ignoring the agreement that Israel signed and has never repudiated, our Mccarthite friend writes a completely different version of history, demanding that the Arab States absorb the Palistinians, and denying the legitimate claim those people have to autonomy and Self-determination which Israel agreed to 30 years ago.The the Arab papers of that day know less about what occurred then Doug? lol
These are sources from the Middle-East and are Arab News-Papers, from 1948 through 1954, and they witnessed it. How does that add up to lies to you?
I think you'r so locked into your bias that you cannot accept a fact that may dis-agree with your own assumptions. Those numbers and facts are drawn from...
- by Abu Mazen, from the article titled: "What We Have Learned and What We Should Do", published in Falastin el Thawra, the official journal of the PLO, of Beirut, in March 1976
Ash Shalab (Jaffa newspaper), January 30, 1948
- Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station, Cyprus, April 3, 1949
Edward Atiyah (then Secretary of the Arab League Office in London) in The Arabs (London, 1955), p. 183
Emil Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee
Falastin (Jordanian newspaper), February 19, 1949
- Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, quoted in Sir Am Nakbah ("The Secret Behind the Disaster") by Nimr el Hawari, Nazareth, 1952
- Habib Issa, Secretary General of the Arab League (Azzam Pasha's successor), in the newspaper Al Hoda, June 8, 1951
- Arab Higher Committee, in a memorandum to the Arab League, Cairo, 1952, quoted in The Refugee in the World, by Joseph B. Schechtman, 1963
- from the Jordan daily Ad Difaa, September 6, 1954
- General Glubb Pasha, in the London Daily Mail on August 12, 1948
- Yunes Ahmed Assad, refugee from the town of Deir Yassin, in Al Urdun, April 9, 1953
- Monsignor George Hakim, Greek Catholic Bishop of Galilee, according to Rev. Karl Baehr, Executive Secretary of the American Christian Palestine Committee, New York Herald Tribune, June 30, 1949
- Haifa District HQ of the British Police, April 26, 1948, quoted in Battleground by Samuel Katz
- Jamal Husseini, Acting Chairman of the Palestine Arab Higher Committee, told to the United Nations Security Council, quoted in the UNSC Official Records (N. 62), April 23, 1948, p. 14
- The Arab National Committee of Haifa, told to the Arab League, quoted in The Refugee in the World, by Joseph B. Schechtman, 1963
The Haifa Workers' Council bulletin, 28 April 1948
- Emil Ghory, secretary of the Arab High Council, Lebanese daily Al-Telegraph, 6 Sept 1948
- Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948-49, The Memoirs of Haled al Azm, (Beirut, 1973), Part 1, pp. 386-387
"According to official records of the League of Nations and Arab census figure 539,000
The UN through UNRWA (UN Relief Agency)
And your going to argue that you know the history of what occurred better than these people do? Are you serious? I mean that is insane even for you Doug.
Wow... that is so closed minded and absurd. All those Arabs who were there are liars, and you are telling the truth... wow!
You know, I don't even have to point out the close-minded bias in that post of yours, Doug. It is perfectly clear to anyone who reads the sources and then your comment that you are simply hating on me and Israel.
http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-c … sp#Whathap
You know Doug. The problem is not that they, my sources, do not know what occurred. It is that all you know is revisionist history. That you would even argue against their testimonies is all the proof I need of the damage that has been done, as I keep explaining to people here.
And you just proved my point regarding revisionist history's afffects on people's understanding of the truth of what occurred there, and History in general.
And that is just a tiny fraction of what is out there regarding this matter and attested to by Arabs themselves in the surrounding Islamic nations.Lets make sure this is clear.
You have very selective newspaper quotes from 1948 to 1954. BFD. I cited the Camp David Accord from 1978.
And who is stupid enough to believe that the opinions of 1948 carry more weight than the framework for peace signed in 1978 - which Israel has not kept?Dough the Camp David accord does not mean anything to the Arab States, only the three Parties involved, and it was a Grand stand play fo the Seated US president at the time.
Neither side kep the accord. Remember it was an accord not a binding treaty and Both broke it wide open.The truth of what happened has nothing to do with the accords, Doug?
It has everything to do with who should shoulder the wieght of establishing a Palestine. And they are not selective, google the papers from 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, and so on. All the Arab papers screamed about what their leaders had done to the refugees. You liberals cannot just set that aside and blame Israel for everything.
That is the BS here.
And lets go to the late 1990s/ 2000 Democrat Clinton, Ehud Barrak and Israel offered everything Palestine wanted to them... including Jerusalem... and Arafat walked out... that showed their true intent. And that superceedes your 1978.
http://www.thewe.cc/contents/more/archi … tifada.htm
So I will see your 1978... and raise you a 1948 backed up by a total concession in 2000 rejected by Arafat and his rejection of it was praised by the Palestinians and Islam around the Middle-East.
Gimme a break.
Palistine's and Islam's intent is to destroy Israel... period!
That Flotilla has nothing to do with the influences in the Council and development of the Borders. It is a bait for Israel to act, to sucker them into a fight. So were the Iranian War Ships comming through the Suez. They are not that stupid.
It is also for needed aid ot Palestine, yes, but under deck it is also a cargo of equipment to stock the Terror Organizations., So in truth it is many things, a sort of sweet and sour mix in a box if you will.
And I agree also that the Arab Countries can all donate land for an Independent State of Palestine, and absolutely should. They can also take their refugees back, but- Koran teachings get in they way of that a lot apparently.
Israel is well aware of the Borders and the UN.
While I agree with your general sentiments, the Palestinians have been giving Israel the shaft for the past 60 years: not recognizing its right to exist, launching unprovoked wars against it, deliberately bombing civilians without warning, etc. If you want to assign blame, it's a good idea to be fair about it.
That said, I agree that a 2-state solution is desirable. I don't know how Palestine declaring its statehood would be worse than what right-wing Israelis are doing in terms of planting the seed of Israel's destruction:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-2 … -side.htmlWow live... do we almost agree on something? Damn!
There, the Palistinian Islamists, religion does not allow them to "join" the Israelis though. So... they would have some problems not only among their own, but with the Islamic nations, who also use the Palistinians as a hammer against Israel, in getting them to act in such a way.
Now that said.
There is a doctrine in Islam which allows for cooperation with any non-believers, as long as the intent of that cooperation is to eventually destoy said non-believers and Israel. But the "Hudna", is only a temporary truce and could not be held to for anymore than 10 years. Another of the doctrines restrictions.
But also, there have been many times in history where Islam waited patiently for the host nation to drop their guard, and for Islam to have enough followers within the borders of the host country to attack and win. Many times this has occurred throughout the history of Islamic imperialism.
So it is not a bad plan. But I do not think the Jews will ever let their guard down when it comes to Islam. They know as much or more about Islam and its intent than any.That depends...do you think Palestine alongside Israel (i.e. West Bank + Gaza) has the right to exist?
I do not believe Palestine needs to be inside the borders of Israel as it stands now.
I do think they should have a state with access to the sea aside Israel. The Arab nations, of which there are many and only one Israel, should give them the land and help to fund it's creation.
So as I said... almost? I have no problem with a Palistine existing, but not inside Israel. They have proven they cannot be trusted to give up the hostilities, Live.
But we can agree to dis-agree in part. Can we not?Both should exhist, free and Independent of each other, not one inside the other, that will not work at all.
And I should qualify the Palestine should exist comment with, as long as they give up all hostilities against Israel. It would not work to give them a state with all the trimimimgs, military, economy, resources, etc... if they are just going to fund or commit acts of agression against Israel for existing.
thats the problem TM, what happens, because of the Past History. I would hope nations, like us would not fund a military for that new state, and where are their leaders, are they strong enough, will The Brotherhood, Take the Goverment seats?
The real solution is for the Arab states to take their people back, wirth full citizenship and acceptance, and establish firm borders.
Jerusulum, could be a Districk, like DC is in the US. Not a State, but a multi national District, no Arab or Israel goverments in charge of anything. In the District? All countries allowed equal free access to Visit, practice Their religion visit etc. No mass migration from any state allowed.The problem is Islam isn't in it for Jerusalem at all, or a Palestinian State.
Arafat proved that when he walked out on Clinton and Ehud Barrak after he was offered everthing they said they wanted, including Jerusalem. And no one ever brings that up.
That was a very telling moment in the history of this conflict. Their, Islam's and Palestine's intent, is to destroy Israel. It is simple as that, or this would have been over in 2000 when clinton and Barrak offered all of it to them to end the hostilities.Actually President Clinton did bring that up in a more recent Interview, when His wife was running and said about the Conflict, "Sometimes you just have to get over it!"
They asked him if He saw a solution, and he said. The Best Offer the Palestineans ever had They walked away from. Of course it was to CNN, and never mentioned in the correct text it was intended!
It got lost in the Shuffle of Hillaries campagin.
I always woundered if Arafat realised he coould not Keep up the agreement, manage the New State, and did not want to be exposed at that time? I think if he took it, other Influences would have killed him when he returned.He most definitly would have been killed by Islam. Israels destruction is their goal, not peace. And they would have slaughtered him for that move.
I am not surprised it got buried in the campiagn. That is a story the Leftists and Muslims do not want remembered. It would make the Left look like fools for backing the Palestinians and Islam again.
If we keep this up, and not get that agreement, I fear the only thing to happen will be WW3. Man I hope not.
President Clinton got close, I will say that.Unfortunately, Dutch. As I Christian I can see the set up. The secular side of me says no we can find a solution. But the Christian side of me says no we cannot. It is going as it is meant to be.
Unfortunately I see no solution for the troubles there.
And that is about all I give Clinton credit for, and Welfare to Work.I see it also TM, does not look to good.
The worst part of the frenzy is the recognition of Israel did not take place until 1969, and that the Palestinian State had already existed. T will not comment further due to fear and worry enstilled by a dramatic and non-stop 'press-spin' that has left me indecisive by default.
Go read the actual records and reports from the era's that are involved in the ru up to the founding of Israel 1947-48, up to the present day, and do not rely on the Media for anything. They cannot be trusted to be fair or tell you the truth.... not one them... and then draw your own conclusions, Johnathon.
Here is a very good site...
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p389_John.html
And here...
http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-c … sp#Whathap
http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-c … fugees.asp
You can find the truth, it is out there.
Here's truth:
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/06/28 … ch-v-gaza/
Now you justify that if you can.
Nothing you have said justifies the treatment of the Palestinians, just as nothing justifies the treatment of the Jews in WWII. Or the intellectuals under Stalin. Or Ukraine under Stalin. Or Shock and Awe under USA. on and on it goes.
The powers that be are one and the same....the victims have just changed.
Anyone who justifies killing babies and making children suffer has 0 moral ground. Period.But that is why we have good and evil. I get it all and you get none.
Well for god's sakes, don't be evil and call yourself good!
Who would believe that one?
A lot of people Gaza the biggest concentration camp in the history of the world.
A 'crusade' by Americans cannot resolve the Gaza-Israel issue without violence. The U.S. considers Israel a strategic partner/ally in the East, but the land debates have lasted centuries!
Yes--the similarities are astounding. The same vicious, inhumane treatment.
Zionists=Nazi's, IMO.
http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/the-zio … watch.htmlGaza and their government cannot be trusted to roam freely into Israel. If they would stop attacking and renouce the destruction of Israel, and live peacefully,... this wouldn't be a problem.
But Islam cannot abide by Israel's existence and that is the true cause.
Operation Cast Lead and bombing with white phosphorous took care of that.
Fighting one another only results in more fighting!
Many a Jew uttered those very words, on their way to the chambers.
I am not Jewish, but I think fighting is for wussies!
Oblige them? The U.S. is notorioous for most of the obliging? I recollect that we have began more wars and infiltrations in our short 200 yr. history than any country in the world! Furthermore, we are the biggest arms manufacturer and arms seller in the world! Oblige, no. We should find peace somewhere, and we must begin with ourselves. Your commentary is a perfect example of the top 1% wanting a bitter and bad end to what had come from a bitter and bad beginning. The difference is, I do not believe in pursueing negotiations with a country(s) that prides itself on anti-missle technology, nor do I favor a dictatorship regime with standoffish kamikaze and self-destructive residents looking to further a religious plight.
If it is about land, it is none of our business.
It's easy to say things like 'fighting should be obliged' as we enjoy a coffee. A coffee would be thrown, on fire, at the enemy if possessed, and we probably wouldn't have the time to stop at a Dunkin' Donuts. In fact, there are no coffeeshops with bullets grazing your shoulders and elbows.how did you reply in less than a minute, TMMason??? READ MAN, READ!
-johnathan-There are no coffeeshops in war (lol). You are a vet, but 'someone' may need to go to a vet! Rabies shots are issued free for all domesticated animals purchased from Pet Stores, and my mind, brain, train-of-thought, ideas, and beliefs are not on sale!
(happily obliged)
-Johnathan-You can dis-respect my military sevice all you want. I bled so you could have that right. You'r welcome.
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