I feel that Israel is being shoved into a corner by the Palestinians who want to establish an independent state for themselves at the expense of Israel's territory.
Israel's territory was given to her by God under the Abrahamic Land Grant.NONE of this territory was to be relinquished to anyone bartering for 'peace and safety,' (confirmation Exodus 23: 31-33).
God wants Israel to trust God for their peace and safety, not man, making false promises.
Israel has ignored this directive by God and has brought a curse upon herself. Part of this curse is that God permits her enemies (the militant Muslims, primarily) to persecute her.
Isaiah 17 is an unfulfilled prophecy that is ripe to happen, as we speak. It says, paraphrased, that Damascus (Syria)will become a 'ruinous heap' and no longer exist. That hasn't happened, as yet, but is due to happen, perhaps within days or weeks, whereby Isfrael will be forced to do a pre-emptive strike...the first against Iran's nuclear plants...and secondly, Damascus, Syria. This is where Saddam Hussein hid his wmd prior to our U.N. inspectors visiting his country in search of these weapons.
This makes Syria everybit as much a danger to Israel as Iran...perhaps moreso.
In light of Iran's ignoring the world about showing off their weaponry by way of unauthorized missile firings, we can't help but wonder, how much longer can Israel afford to wait to do what is inevitable?
Well I guess let the Holy Wars begin. The only way you can find peace in a Holy War is if everyone believes the same thing. Good luck with that.
Israel being backed into the corner is also in fulfillment of Biblical writ. The day is soon coming when the nations shall battle against them. The Savior will stand upon the Mount of Olives. The mount will split opening up the passage from the west sea to the Dead Sea. The Dead Sea will eventually come alive from the new waters entering.
Or else they'll just kill each other in hopes of the olive mountain event, and afterwards will just be lots of dead bodies and radioactivity whilst the survivors at the fringes begin pointing out how some detail of the prophecy was not fulfilled thus proving that it was not the Bible that was wrong but humans for misinterpreting it... etc., etc., etc. until the "real" event truly comes, blah blah, more death and carnage, etc.
Yes, that sounds about right. Using a millennia-old book of myths to justify atrocities in the here and now just isn't on IMO. And that applies to *all* religions, not just Christianity/Judaism.
We're not justifying it.
We are saying, it seems to us that it is happening no matter who tries to stop it.
We do not route for the end. But neither do we stand by ignoring its posibility.
We're not justifying it.
We are saying, it seems to us that it is happening no matter who tries to stop it.
We do not route for the end. But neither do we stand by ignoring its posibility. And ignoring that it matches the prophesies of the old and new testaments.
The ability for people living in a place that has been at war for thousands of years to predict that it will be at war in the future is hardly prophetic.
It be like someone horking up a prophesy that reads, "And the lord predicted upon Shadesbreath a great pestilence of vomiting and a period of headache and intestinal discomfort, the day of His reckoning upon him for a satan-spawned love if booze," and and then waiting until the day I over do it, yank and am hungover to call out the glory of their god. It's not a prophesy, it's more like, Duh.
Kind of... self-fulfilling, in other words
That assumes we religionists, wouldn't want to stop it. We would, most christians I know would give their life to stop it.
God says to value life it is a precious gift, do not waste it.
But it doesn't seem we can stop it, even with all of our efforts.
Thats not self fulfilling, it is unstoppable. There is a difference. We were told to be aware and ready. Not make it happen at all costs. God doesn't need anyone to make it happen. It will. he has seen it and proclaimed, "the end from the beginning". He has told us and it will happen as he says.
It doesn't take a God to recognize that people who have been at war for eons will continue to be at war. The prophesy was fulfilled before it was made because they were already fighting over there. It's not self-fullfilling, it's self-reinforcing at best.
The fact that "Religionists want to stop it" implies by omission that others DON'T want to stop it (and which religionists want to stop it, given we are talking about a holy war in the eyes of many - or do only the religions that agree with yours count for this point?), which translates to "the non-religionists" (cough>non-Christian>cough) are the problem, which further translates to one of the reasons why the fighting continues after all these thousands of years - fighting that was going on for other reasons long before Christ, and that will be going on long after that religion dies out like all the other ones before it did thus rendering said prophecy no more prophetic than my awesome beer analogy above.
That's the reality that most evangelical Christians don't want to hear. What they want to hear is all the world's Jews are moving back to Israel, welcoming back Jesus Christ, and converting to Christianity before Armageddon begins.
Why mess with any of it? Israel nukes them and they are vaporized, no problem! The mulas and the imams can show them the way to the virgins!
Yeah, but to be fair, we expect that because scripture tells us it will happen, and as the bibles been right in over 600 direct prophesies, we kinda expect that God will keep His 100% correct record going until the end....
ROFL, there is nothing more amusing than selective statistics. How many hundreds (thousands?) of "prophesies" do you have to ignore the total failure of in that absurd book to claim the 600 that can be called "true" if you're willing to selectively examine some events? lmao
God, I am so too drunk to destroy this absurd statement as it should be. <sigh> Anyway, I am laughing at your expense and will feel sorry for thinking the patronizing and sarcastic stuff I'm thinking right now about that response. So, I apologize in advance.
Actually the biblical prophesies have (not surprisingly) been extensively listed and counted and followed up for obvious reasons (like a skeptical world seeking to diminish Gods word).
So lets reverse the situation.
When last I checked, there were 38 outstanding prophesies to be fulfilled out of nearly 700 listed in scripture. At the time that I was verifying the prophetic information they were debating whether they had correctly produced a pure enough 'red heifer', and as the ultra orthodox Jews could and would debate this until they were 110% sure, I stopped following the debate about 10 years ago, so they may have declared on that one, or they may still be verifying it.
You see Gods people (Jewish or Christian) take prophesy seriously, after all it's statistically impossible for nearly 700 prophesies to be fulfilled, so we know it's not a matter of chance, like the theory of evolution or something.
So why not tell us all about the "many hundreds (thousands?) of "prophesies" do you have to ignore the total failure of in that absurd book"?
You've made the statement, now will you do the work needed to prove it to us, or will you resort to the normal line of 'LOLOLO' rubbish and silly smileys that normally comes back when a poster is challenged?
In Torah scripture prophets were stoned to death if their prophesy was not fulfilled. i.e. if they made false prophesies they got killed.
Isiah made prophesies that took 700 years to come to fruition, but I guess he had a good enough track record to stay alive, though he was killed when they sawed him in half, so he upset someone big time, maybe because he prophesied about Christ with amazing accuracy, so it could be that Satan wanted him silenced... no matter, God has always had prophets to tell people what will happen next.
If you want to make cheap jibe statements, back them up.
First, nicely done on not being overly offended by the tone of my response. It shows a level head to mostly stick to the meat of my beer sodden words. So, a nod to you for that. That respect paid, on with the business of the debate:
So you are saying there is no possible way anyone could ever read "the scripture" in any of its various versions and extract more prophesies; that there is only one way to read "the scripture" and that is the way that finds 700?
If that is in fact what you are saying, then I am forced to say, without having to even look that I find the claim preposterous. Any given text can be read in uncountable ways (you can check with any student of literature if you don't believe), and this applies to some pretty straight forward works - works that have NOT been translated a zillion times and reorganzied willy nilly by different factions throughout time, with parts added and parts omitted as desired by the factions assembling it for whatever the purpose of the day was.
1. By whose mathematical authority is it proven "statistically impossible" for 700 "prophesies" to be fulfilled? I can make 700 prophesies that will come true. (Statistics are garbage in most arguments anyway as people abuse them or misuse them incessantly.)
2. This is supposed to be a holy book put together by God. How is it God can't give accurate prophesies to his people? Or did he just give them to incompetents sometimes? If so, why didn't he pick better, given that he is God?
3. The idea of a "fulfilled" prophesy is always squishy. Some details inevitably aren't there when the “fulfillment” occurs, but those are glossed over as insignificant details or marginal misinterpretations of translation (which is allowed for in minor inconveniences, but totally denied for glaring absurdities). So who gets to declare fulfillment? I'm assuming it will be a "believer" who calls each prophesy "fullfilled" not an impartial observer.
You want to talk about "normal line" rubbish; that's the golden oldie of all Internet time: "Hey, unless you write a doctoral dissertation to support YOUR claims on this here Internet forum (which I don't have to do), then clearly you are wrong and I am right."
This is a forum and not one person who attends such carnival conversations has the interest or discipline to read a well supported argument presented in detail. If they wanted that, they’d read a book. People don’t come to read thoughtful responses, and they damn sure wouldn't read any of the sources, and if they did, they wouldn't, in most cases, know how to spot a crap resource as opposed to a good one anyway (I'll be shocked if anyone reads this response since it's more than two sentences long). So, that "go do the work" thing is a total cop out that pretends to want something you have no interest in.
There is just as much existing literature bombing the legitimacy of your favorite book as there is in support of it. You're no more going to write a treatise on the summation of your favorite 10,000 pages than I will. You knew it before you wrote that, which is why I call you out on having written it with the smarmy "normal line" comment trying to dismiss my dismissal with the pretense of your being interested in me providing something you aren't interesting in reading and/or aren't interested in doing in return.
Another example of providing evidence to support the claim in your book with evidence taken from the same book. In Harry Potter they predict the coming of Voldemort, and later, he shows up. So since the book has parts that predict other parts, then obviously the story is real. I totally see your point now, and stand corrected.
Furthermore, when a land is seething with undercurrents of dissatisfaction and political tension, it does not take a rocket scientist to say, "Hey, someone is going to come along and lead the grumbling masses to a better life." It's inevitable, and anyone with the social and political acuity to see it can roll the dice on how soon, even work to make it happen if they have someone with enough charisma hanging around. To call it prophesy is to impose your need for a supernatural parent to comfort you on the naturally occurring realities of human social behaviors that take place in large populaces.
I did. If you want to make "truth" claims about a book that requires itself to prove itself, uh... expect to take some shots.
I can't tell if this is Poe's Law or not. Which 600 prophecies, please?
Great! What should we do in the mean time? Please don't tell me to repent and I will be saved.
Get ready because this country, America, too, is prophisied to be in the thick of it.
Besides. Obama is getting ready for civil war in this counrty.
Why shouldn't you. Only on a larger scale.
Let me get this right, we should just sit back and let the prophecy show us the way? I believe in God but to leave it up to the belief in a dream some man had some 1800 or 1900 years ago is how I should prove it?
I am sorry but there are other ways and just believing in fate is not one of them.
I would never prescribe what everyone already knows, in their heart, needs to be done. My aim is in the knowledge that many great and awe-inspiring things are about to come to pass the foundations of which are already laid or are being laid as we speak. The important thing is to not solely focus on the grim things of the world like war, poverty and the like. Those things are real and we are to do all in our power to prevent and correct these situations. YET, beyond these things are great events that will not only usher in the millenia of peace but will also sustain such peace until that time is consumed. How each of us live our life here, in mortality, will help determine whether we will be here to personally witness these great events or not.
The Mount splitting and the waters coming alive doesn't even clip the iceberg of the mountain of good things that will unfold.
I really don't want to go down this path with you as I feel it will get too far off topic. In my prayers I feel I have been made to understand I should not pick on the Christians as I do believe you mean well in your core beliefs.
I would rather focus on the task at hand and how we have played into it through our political blunders and power hungry politics and business dealings. This is what I feel is at the center of our plight.
The funny thing about being King is that you can do no wrong. All the people fall in line and espouse the same rhetoric that the King does and therefore their reality is justified.
I think you will see a decline in the way America continues its subjective foreign affairs and that the nukes will only play as a stumbling block for us to have any crediblity.
The unbridled support of Israel comes from America and the corrupt lobbying system that keeps the politicians in power.
It would be a bad mistake for Israel to attack Iran. I can't imagine that Obama wouldn't try very hard to dissuade them.
Given their history, I think Israel might very well strike pre-emptively. For an interesting take on how important the Golan Heights are to their security, you might want to look at my hub on Josi's story on how Israel really won the 6-day war.
Can anyone show me the Paperwork with God's signature?
Apparently Muslims don't pray to the same God.
At some point the United States has go to keep their mouth shut and let things fall as they may.
Ultimately God will take care of it and the true winner will be revealed.
That's what "God" wants right?
So let them fight it out then side with the winner... because after all that is what God wants.
To the highest heavens I thank God for democracy (such as it is) in America, because if a group spouting the type of religious tripe we are seeing here ever seized power in the US, we'd all be toast very, very soon.
God (who does not exist in the beardy form you seem to think of him) did not give the land to anyone.
Unless He is the Great Real Estate Agent in the Sky (always possible I guess).
You people are loonies: on the one hand "God is Love" and on the other he sanctions epic genocides like the one Joshua and Saul are said to have perpetrated on the Canaanites (who were on the land when the Hebrews supposedly arrived). Make up your minds...
Blaming God for what men do is an easy way out.
Making God responsable for attrocities is a cheap excuse
Time to tell it as it is
It's sad that the Jewish homeland's security is held hostage by religious zealots who don't understand that Israelis, like the Palestinians, will not get everything they want.
Islam has longed claimed the holy sites of other religions as it's own. It is their way of pissin on that religion.
Israel should defend themselves in any manner neccessary, including and not limited to pre-emptive strikes.
Well, God should have told other people that he gave that land to them and this wouldn't be a problem. God needs to be less secretive. I mean, it's not that I don't believe you, mind you, I mean if something is written down it's obviously true. But, well, if God could have, you know, shown up at a few more doorsteps and said, "Hey, you guys, listen, I'm giving this land to these guys over here, so don't get too comfortable," or something like that, I think a lot of problems would have been solved. I know it's God's will that there be endless death and suffering over this etc., but still, he could have planned that out better, knowing that people don't always believe what other people say. I mean, think about it, I show up at your house and tell you, "Hey, God told me I can have this land," you probably wouldn't believe me even if in fact God actually did tell me that.
The Jewish Homeland Security being held....????
What have all those children living in Palestine done to deserve such onesided viewpoints, comments, and dislike rhetoric? Rhetoric that eventually leads countrymen on both sides who hear this- to death, destruction, and more importantly no hope. What have the children of Palestine done to deserve all this support to terrorize them, their families? Especially with such well wishes for their execution and destruction.
I'm curious- what have they done???
Rather than asking why these children are dying and who is to blame for putting them in harm's way, the average viewer, regardless of their political or ideological perspective, wants to see the killing stopped. They blame those whose weapons directly caused the deaths, rather than those who provoked the violence by deliberately targeting civilians. They forget the usual rules of morality and law. For example, when a murderer takes a hostage and fires from behind his human shield, and a policeman, in an effort to stop the shooting accidentally kills the hostage, the law of every country holds the hostage taker guilty of murder – even though the policeman fired the fatal shot. The same is true of the law of war. The use of human shields, in the way Hamas uses the civilian population of Gaza, is a war crime, as is its firing of rockets at Israeli civilians. Every human shield that is killed by Israeli self-defence measures is the responsibility of Hamas, but you wouldn't know that from watching the media coverage.
It isn't the nature of the killings, since Israel goes to extraordinary lengths to avoid killing civilians – if for no other reason than that it hurts their cause – while Hamas does everything in its power to force Israel to kill Palestinian civilians by firing its missiles from densely-populated civilian areas and refusing to build shelters for its civilians. It isn't the nature of the conflict, because Israel is fighting a limited war of self-defence designed to protect its own civilians from rocket attacks, while most of those killed by Arabs and Muslims are killed in genocidal and tribal warfare with no legitimate aim. The world simply doesn't seem to care when Arabs and Muslims kill large numbers of other Arabs and Muslims, but a qualitatively different standard seems to apply when the Jewish state kills even a relatively small number of Muslims and Arabs in a war of self-defence.
"It isn't the nature of the killings, since Israel goes to extraordinary lengths to avoid killing civilians – if for no other reason than that it hurts their cause –"
Yes, it does hurt their cause, but that hasn't stopped Israel from killing Palestinian civilians at a rate many times the number of Israelis killed by Palestinian rockets. Apparently you haven't read the Goldstone report.
Anyway, I'm not sure what this has to do with Israel nuking Iran???
I'm not all that concerned with "world opinion" about this issue (is there one?). And the Arab world has basically discredited itself by ignoring the massacre in Darfur (because, presumably, the murderers are Arab) while continuing to hyperventilate about Israel's existence.
But as Jews we should be holding ourselves to a higher standard. The Goldstone (he is Jewish, you know) report, as Ralph points out, makes it clear that far more casualties happened at the hand of the IDF than from Hamas forces. Besides the practical matter (how do attacks like that affect Hamas's electoral chances the next go around?), there is the ethical matter: should so many innocents lose their lives because they're caught in the crossfire or used as pawns/shields by Hamas?
The expansion of settlements in occupied territories is also an unnecessary provocation, too. We have to ask ourselves whether our interests are really in line with the main supporters of the current Israeli government (the haredim, for whom there is no cost too great for "holy land" and evangelical Christians, who imagine we'll either convert to Christianity or disappear).
My family (on one side) is also Jewish, and I think this is why this topic exercises me so much.
I think, in part, I feel that what the IDF does is in my name. Added to this is the impertinence of American Christians who think they have a say in any of this.
Let me think.
Half the time is this not the same people who complain about non-Americans butting into American politics?
Of course Muslims are frequently just as meddlesome in my experience.
I mean, come on, if you are a Muslim from Pakistan it is a bit rich to pretend to have some connection to the Palestinians.
Anyway I agree with your general thrust, and do think that what the IDF does reflects on all of us with Jewish blood
What the children of Palestine did (or did not) to become victimes of violence IS that they could not convince the world their lives are just as precious as Israeli lives.
How sad to call one group heroes and the other terrorist.
both Jacob (Israel) & Esau (Islam) were promised by G-d to be -and I quote- Great Nations. And indeed they are. Go G-d!
I am sure Palestinians have more historical claim to the whole of Israel than a bunch of European immigrants of the 20th century.
That said, it really does not help to go back centuries to lay claim to a land. History is more an obstacle than a help in the Israel-problem.
You have to address the current facts on the ground and both Israel's and the Palestinians live in the same country. Either they split the country between them (equally, not one getting e.g. more water than the other) or they live together in one democratic goverment.
As to Iranian nuclear power, that won't be a problem when the Israili-problem is solved.
As to a pre-emptive strike by Israel, I hope that all will pray to whatever God they believe in, for that not to happen. We really don't want thousands killed.
@Izzy Anne: "I am sure Palestinians have more historical claim to the whole of Israel than a bunch of European immigrants of the 20th century.
That said, it really does not help to go back centuries to lay claim to a land. History is more an obstacle than a help in the Israel-problem.
You have to address the current facts on the ground and both Israel's and the Palestinians live in the same country. Either they split the country between them (equally, not one getting e.g. more water than the other) or they live together in one democratic goverment."
They're better off trying to live together in one country. Partition never works, because each "side" always thinks that the grass is greener.
An Israeli-only state of Israel is IMO a doomed enterprise.
I agree with you. I don't see much difference between Apartheid and the two-state solution.
That said, the two-state solution has been agreed upon by many Palestinians and Israeli's and whom am I to prescribe to them?
It also reminds me of Yugoslavia splitting into many ethnic states and now all of them are looking towards joining the EU where they will have freedom of movement and then all will live together again.
Israelites were in that area around 1750BC, there were on muslims or islam then.
Sure about that? Muslims from 1750BC onward?
Regardless, there are two very incompatible populations fighting over land. The UN already decided on this back in 1947, and a two-state solution remains.
I wonder if those arguing against a two-state solution would be comfortable seeing their country merged with their closest neighbors. Most live in a country where their neighbor(s) is/are not as culturally different as Israel and Palestine are.
"Israelites were in that area around 1750BC, there were on muslims or islam then."
I live in Britain. As a country, we've experienced wave after wave of colonists such as the Celts, Saxons, Vikings and Normans. The Celts were pushed to the western and northern fringes of Britain (i.e. Wales, Cornwall and Scotland) by the Saxons etc. back in the Dark Ages about 1,500 years ago. So by your logic, we should let the Cornish/Welsh/Scots take back the rest of the UK if they ask for it.
I'm sorry but arguments like yours just don't make any sense to me. Fifty or a hundred years ago (rather than 1,750 BC) - yes, you would have a point. But going back much further than that and it all gets a bit murky and you have to ask, where does one draw the line?
But how does this make me a Nazi? A point I see you neglected to give your viewpoint too. And again, with all due respect you're wrong. Palestine was the land of the Israels. The land of the Israels. Israelites came for only 1 area, Palestine. All their roots were born to Palenstine. Abraham is the father of Muslim religions, Jewish religions, and Christian religions. Do you not know of Abraham?
However still, how am I a Nazi again????
It seems that when one leaves his fatherland, he is no longer of that land. I like to use the example of Germans. So many German people's have emmigrated to so many lands..what would the result be if suddenly they all decided to return to Germany tomorrow. Guess they wouldn't be to welcome.
Beside that they are no longer ethnically pure so how can they call themselves German?
So substitute Israel for Germany and Hebrew/Jews/Israeli's for Germans.
It is unclear to me how some agreement after WW2 can slice and dice the whole Middle-East, including Iraq and expect the various ethnic and religious peoples to miraculously agree to live quietly and peacefully with each other. It would truly be a miracle to see these peoples, largely poorly educated, poor, poorly governed and/or united as they stand. to be mature enough to understand that peaceful endeavor is more desireable that attacking each other.
The final arrow is that is supposed to be "God's Will" or whatever. None of it makes sense.
The Palestinian people's were living there at that time, and how someone can just move in and crowd them into a corner and say it is lawful and appropriate, Islam aside. I guess I would fight too. Guess I am missing something as aren't the Palestinians Semites? Most modern Isreali's are not.
Go Israel! Take out the islama-nazis! The region was controlled by Israelites long before there were palestinians.
I'm sorry, but your statement is sorely incorrect. I'm not sure what university you graduated from, but I'd like to know. Because with all due respect to you and yours, that is entirely incorrect information you've been taught.
? what? That Isreal controlled that region long before palistinians? Or the Islamo-Nazi thing
<snipped - no self-promotion in the forums>
No. Thank you for the insult. However, if you look at Hebrew writings, and historical references...... You know, never mind. I was only trying to help better inform someone on their history. It has always been called Palestine. Israel was not a conformed word until 1948. But as I can see, I guess I am a "Nazi" for trying to teach someone some correct history on the subject matters of language.
The Children of Palestine stemmed from the groin of Abraham. Joshua was a known Israelite, from the land of Palestine. It is written on Egyptian tomb walls dating back some mere 6 thousand years ago.
Now what part of all that makes me a Nazi again??? Please do enlighten me on how I'm now a Nazi??????????????
So your a muslim, and you believe Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and Abraham, too.
So I don't think we will agree on anything. Your suppossed "facts" of history, are alot different then mine.
Nice to meet you though. Don't get mad because your knowledge of history is not the same as mine.
It all good, see it how you want to.
Islam didn't exist until around 500-600AD. The tribes of Israel were in the region around 1750BC there is some debate on the actual time. That aside, King Soloman and King David both acknowledged as leaders of the Israelites were in the area around 1000BC! There was no islam.
By that token you should immediately surrender all American lands to Native Americans
I don't think anyone can take it from them. The claim by the supporters of the palastinians is it was there land and at no time could they claim based on history it was theirs. Considering the history of the region it's always been a winner take all situation in that area.
No-one seriously (I mean no-one sane) really thinks Israel is going anywhere. I mean, the very idea is ludicrous. Supporters of the Palestinians come in two forms:
a) religious (Muslims) who don't actually give a sh't about the Palestinians, but are just mixing it up for their own agendas
b) people who think that the Palestinians should at least have their rights granted to them, like the right not to have your house bulldozed in the middle of the night, for example.
THE POINT IS YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE (a) TO BE (b) (sorry about the shouting ).
And who screwed with the forums formatting while I was gone. It sucks
Nah Sneako, my point is this land by the Mediterranean Sea went from one hands to another so many times it is impossible to any nation to claim it as theirs. One cannot master a serious argument in that sense. Therefore both arabs and jews have to learn to share. Yet USA always taking a jew side makes this learning process longer and more painful than necessary.
Yep. Starting in the second millenium BC, we have:
Canaanites, Israelites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Turks and British. It was also frequently an outpost of the Egyptians.
Misha your points are very sane and correct. If Israel feels their threatened by iran they have the right to do what they feel is necessary to secure their country. Israel is the tiger and radical islam is pulling their tail, would it be any wonder that they might get bit?
Well, Israel would not have grown into a tiger if not for American help. That's the whole point I was trying to make.
And please don't underestimate arab force, especially now at the time of great crisis of Western civilization...
Whoever says anything "politically incorrect" about Israel is a "Nazi"
It has been going on for 70 years now so we should know better than telling it as it is
What is becoming of society? What is the world doing about? Nothing, everyone is talking or care only of yourself. You are very selfish,.
And before that it was controlled by someone else (Canaanite civilization goes back to the Chalcolithic Period). So what.
Is it always whoever gets there first that should be in control? Mmmm. Maybe we should give America back to the native peoples... it's the same logic.
The fact is that if you grow up some place you should have the right to stay there. So any Israeli born after 1948 has the right to be there.
As does any Palestinian, Russian, Ethiopian, or whoever there is living in that land right now.
Israel has the right to defend itself without causing due harm to anyone else. That's just common sense.
All countries have that right. But it has the bomb, and it plays all the cards in the region.
Arafat screwed his own people over.
It could be argued that if he hadn't then Hamas would not have been elected in the first place.
What a surprise... yet again, it is the thieves who have political power (Arafat's Fatah party) at the root of the problem.
The palistinians are a Roman Construct. Ad 70, Rome said NO more Isreal,.... now youre Palistine. I guess they thought they solved the problem.
If they could have only known. What a tangled web eh?
How sad that people fight over land and in the name of God. Everyone is entitled to their own faiths and beliefs, and if we all accepted that and showed respect for each other and didn't abuse the name of God, Allah or whoever the head of the chosen religion is, we might all have a peaceful existence...how naive am I? Well I don't care. People killing each other over land when we are all destroying the planet anyway. By the time all conflicts are resolved there won't be an earth to fight over anyway.
I thought you were done ranting, sorry.
Click the link and read the hub on Islam and Nazism.
Another fact of history you'll deny, because your religion says it is not true.
My, my, my- a simple apology would done just fine. But no- more insults are given, and more "telling me" I don't have the right to be mad or for a better term, upset at being called a Nazi.
Thank you, however I will pass on further communications with you. It is quite clear you have no respect or honor in your words or concerning your behavior. Respect and honor is what separates adults from acting like school children. Thank you, but I will pass.
Are you or are you not a muslim. If so your veiw of history, regardless of your rant , is not going to be the same as mine. Nor your facts. Muslims from 1750. What-ever. Just like Abraham was Muslim. What-ever.
If your not a muslim. How can you be insulted about being called a nazi?
If you are then you will deny the Historic link between Islam and Nazism.
So being a muslim is the same as being a nazi? That is a new history leson we should learn well and fast
I think the source is George Lucas / Steven Spielberg
It's the radical ridiculous homocidal behavior that makes them islama-nazis, sorry.
Well, you can't really blame them. It's all they know, that's how they were brought up.
Until they get a handle on the radicals there won't be and end to it.
"I'm sorry but arguments like yours just don't make any sense to me. Fifty or a hundred years ago (rather than 1,750 BC) - yes, you would have a point. But going back much further than that and it all gets a bit murky and you have to ask, where does one draw the line?"
I cannot keep up with your posts, if you do not let me answer.
I am lost as to where you are now. Muslims from 1750. What are you talking about?
IDK. let me wait, when your done I will stack the ?s and reply.
I'll be reading.
@TMMason: "I'm sorry but arguments like yours just don't make any sense to me. Fifty or a hundred years ago (rather than 1,750 BC) - yes, you would have a point. But going back much further than that and it all gets a bit murky and you have to ask, where does one draw the line?
I cannot keep up with your posts if you do ot let me answer. I am lost as to where you are now. Muslims from 1750 what are you talking about?
IDK. let me wait, when your done I will stack the ?s and reply.
I'll be reading."
This thread is becoming a train wreck. TMMason, your post (to which I'm replying and which I've copied and pasted because the "Reply" feature on this forum is shot to buggery) actually contains messages from at least three separate people, myself included.
I think Hub Pages admin should take a look at why the buttons aren't working properly.
IO thought I was lost. I am sorry it seemed as if you were ranting.
I apologize for the ranting thing.
I have found the quote button works as the reply button used too. I agree that it gets very confusing.
I wagered that they would strike before the years end in another thread. I suppose that may not happen, but it will probably be soon. Obama says don't fly over Iraq. what would we do to stop them? Nadda
We could tell Netanyahoo we'll stop sending Israel $2 billion/year or whatever the current figure is.
agua, what do you know about olive orchards for oil production?
Being from Spain that is? maybe an assumption, i hope not.
Like how... to fuel a car or cook with... my experience of olive oil is mostly limited to pouring it liberally on peasant bread before I douse it with fresh chopped tomatoes and salt.... a wonderful breakfast, so more specific please?
What would you like to know, sooner - we have a few olive trees
I have 200 acres in a good climate. Someone wants to plant thousands of them on my acreage and become partners. I use the oil for 90% of my cooking and like it- just don't know anything about it.
Hi sooner - I will be off to bed in a while, too, so I will answer any questions tomorrow.
Now you are asking! All I can say about olive farming is that it is hard work - we have 12 trees and that is enough work for the two of us
There is an art behind growing olive trees - not just in the growing and irrigation, but in the cutting - they need to be trimmed back every couple of years or they will struggle. It is the sort of topic that could easily fill 1000 hubs without even scratching the surface!
I tried to find some good online info for you, but it is a little late so my brain is even slower than usual - I will have a look tomorrow and will post some links for you. If your potential business partner knows what they are doing, it could be a good investment. If they don't, it is not the sort of thing that you can easily pick up from reading a few articles online
If you want to know more, you could see if there are any good books on Amazon, but it is the sort of thing where you need practical, first-hand experience - perhaps you could take a tour of a few of the farms in California or Arizona, if you are interested
Not much help, but I will get on the case in the morning
The reality of the situation is that Israel is a nuke power and instead of investing in ICBM's has simply buried them in strategic places... ready for the last Israeli to push the metaphoric button.
The rest of the world has a problem....
First God said what was going to happen, and to date it's happened exactly as He said and on time.
Secondly, they don't know where the nukes are buried, they do know that IF they are detonated the whole Mid East oil supply will glow for 25,000 years, but that's not too much help.
Thirdly, Israel is not afraid to push the button, they have vast experience of folk trying to wipe them out, they don't play games any longer.
So get used to the fact that in the end result God will win and the Israelis will NOT be surrendering to Satans plans, but they will (eventually) recognize who Christ is.
Sorry if that spoils your 'black panther party' (to quote Forrest Gump) but life's like that, you have all these fine ideas about how it should be, and someone comes and trashes your parade with reality.
So no comments about 'Oooooh how bad I is' I'm not doing any more than quoting the facts of life (and death).
Israel is not going to roll over and let the world kick the proverbial out of them any more.
I have to agree with everything you have just stated. Point in case, it has been predicted and it is going to happen.
There's so much unrest in that region, and the situation with Iran is a pretty scary one. Israel has every right to strike and I think the US needs to keep a close eye on anything developing here. We don't need to put our troops in harms way if they do strike. But if things get ugly then we would have an obligation to support an obvious ally.
I don't think the strike will come from Isreal, but from the young people of Iran and overturn the government. When the government is overthrown, the new leader will stop the nuclear system they have in Iran. I may be wrong, but I'm hopeful thinking.
This is a great thought. I feel much the same as you do.
I would hope this is the outcome of the turmoil in Iran. Better to have a dictator overthrown by his own rather than letting outsiders do it for you. It gives the whole thing more credibility as to the countries real intent.
I have a solution to two problems, lets send all our convicts to a landing area in iran. Give them guns and some food and tell them you can have whatever you can take!
It's amazing how the international community has ignored the ethnic cleansing of Palestine for the last sixty years. The European powers who carved up Palestine after the Balfour declaration effectively turned their eyes away when Israel implemented Plan Dalet, the blueprint for ethnic cleansing established in 1948; they are still looking away as the Israeli government continues the policy.
Successive European governments have complained that the Israeli military machine is slaughtering Palestinians (just compare the death tolls) and yet the US continues to pour huge amounts of money into their military budgets.
Israel remains the only country in the middle east to have attacked all of its neighbours, to have ignored more than 100 UN resolutions, to have obtained nuclear weapons against the international agreements, to have refused to sign nuclear non-proliferation treaties, to have carried out ethnic cleansing, and to operate an apartheid system in which half of its citizens are denied basic democratic rights.
Certainly the Palestinians have a right to be aggrieved - they are denied the right to return to their land they were driven from and they are corralled into an economically starved area with no prospect of economic growth. When they are subjected to military attack for so long, of course they will start to make primitive weapons of defence.
Maybe the UN should insist on sending in weapons inspectors to Israel, and the international community should turn off the arms funding until Israel starts to respect international law. They should be made to respect international agreements, perhaps with a peace-keeping force to restrain the IDF.
But in the meantime, the Israeli regime is tearing itself apart in the conflict between the settlers who refuse to abide by even the mild restrictions of their own government on settlements, and those who realise that they have to compromise with the rest of the world.
Hopefully the instability generated will force the sensible Israelis to dump their government's policy of military aggression and insist on the establishment of a democratic state. It will be a hard change for many Israelis but their only real hope of survival.
Bravo, and very well written. Bravo!
The plans you propose are very sensible and called for but unfortunately you don't address the real propblem which is the US. We continue to throw money at Israel with no accountability on their part and they definately like the party in charge to tell the world one thing and then continue their agenda of ridding the country of Palestinians.
You can't blame the US politicians for continuing their course as the Jewish lobby controls the vote and the purse strings. America is content with keeping all the trouble over there and let the Israelis take care of the dirty work as long as it does not threaten the US.
As long as we don't get involved in the Israeli conflict which is a sore spot for the Arab world and are able to just send money and keep the oil flowing we don't want anything to change.
But that's exactly what the US can be blamed for. US politicians claim to stand for principles and yet every time, those principles are conditional upon not offending some powerful lobby - which sort of means they're not principles at all but electoral tactics.
It was a disgrace that on Obama's first day in office, he told Haaretz that the US gave unconditional support to Israel, which they took to mean that despite the international bluster, and despite anything they did to the Palestinians, the arms dollars would keep flowing. If even one US politician had the courage to actually stand by their political principles, it would shake the Israeli regime into something of a rethink. But that just doesn't happen.
I certainly could not agree with you more on this subject matter. Stop Israel from more destruction- you've solve the MiddleEast-crisis.
The reason why I stated that you cannot blame the politician for his need to please the Jewish lobby is because that is one of the main sources of support they need to continue in office. They are a tool of the corrupt machine that has control of our country.
I don't expect any of the slime on the hill to change a thing until they are held accountable for their actions. As long as the lies and deception is practised by them with the help of the mainstream media there can be no change. Unfortunately the electorate is ultimately to blame.
What american principles are you talking about, Bob?
America never had any principles, just plenty of economic and political interests. And that's the way it is!
Amen, Bob. The U.S. could move the process along by telling Netanyahoo that we're going to stop sending Israel billions of $ every year until they shape up.
They may call you a Nazi too, Bob
It happens fast in this forum, just ask IntimatEvolution
Israel got spanked for believing its BS when it last invaded Lebanon. If it attacks Iran, Israel will get spanked very hard. Anyone who is calling for an attack by Israel on Iran has bumped his head. Anyone who thinks that God prefers one people over another has really bumped his head.
Israel has every right to do what is needed to protect or defend its citizens. The main persecutor for the Jews/ Israelis was Hitler... His policy was "offence is the best form of defence". Let Israel go by the words of its own persecutor.
In Hindu Vedas, one can destroy a whole family for one's own security. One can destroy a whole village to protect a whole family. There is no sin to preempt the coming disaster. Or else, there will be no Israel.
This is absurd.
The Jews deserved a homeland after what the Nazis did, and they have the right to preservation of that homeland...
...and they have now got all of this. They have the bomb, they have one of the world's strongest militaries, and they have all kinds of talent, whether financial, technical, or artistic. The idea that they are pushed into a corner is ridiculous. The Palestinians can barely feed themselves, and any nation state that surrounds them knows it stands a good chance of being nuked if it attacks them. Wake up. Israel has a right to its continued existence. But it is ALREADY in about as strong a position as it could be in
So by this logic the Palestinians should pay for whatever Nazi did to the Jews?
Israerlis has a right to the homeland they abandoned and the Palestinians should just go away?
No. They should learn to act and behave in a civilized manner and join the rest of the world andlearn to grow past their medieval barbarian behaviors. Cutting peoples heads off, please! The Israelies are on a plane by themselves as far as any other people in the region. They have turned a goat hearding pasture into a modern well oiled country with gads of potential. Oh yeah, they don't stone their women unles it's with some hash.
You've been to the Palestinian territories clearly... the things you are talking about happen in that heinous, vile regime run by the Saudis, not in Palestine. It's like saying that Britain and America do the same things because we have the same culture.
And in any case, terrorists are pigs, no matter where they come from. Palestinian, the IRA, Carlos the Jackal (remember him; he was't a Muslim), the Oklahoma Bomber. Are you going to paint all Oklahomans with the same brush too? How about all Irish people?
Should Palestinians get the same amount of money Israel is getting from the US, who knows, they may even polish up their behaviors
No, that is not my logic at all. The Palestinians also have rights. In addition, many Israelis disagree with their own governments' policies towards the Palestinians. I am just saying that Israelis have a right to live in Israel (most Israelis in fact were not even alive during the Second World War, in any case).
Palestinians have a right to be left in peace where they live (which they are often not; they are often harassed, in fact). Palestinians also in my view have a right to land confiscated from their families in the forties and fifties... But they can't move back in many cases, because there is something built on it now.
It's like native land claims in Canada. We are trying (slowly, admittedly) to compensate native peoples for land taken from them... but you can't uproot Montreal: it's already there
I think the creation of the modern Israeli state was a mistake. It was always going to cause trouble to try and artificially recreate an ancient homeland where other peoples have been living for hundreds of years.
Just thought I'd post it here....
Col. Richard Kemp Testifies at U.N. Emergency Session
Well since the Palestinians handed their lives over to fatah and that other terrorist group whose name escapes me, they pretty much are screwed.
It's really tough but they have to clean their house and keep the garbage out.
I agree. But the Palestinians so far want to keep the garbage in.
It is interesting that a few days ago the Israeli parliament, the Knesset, overturned the sentences for Israeli settlers who refused to move from land stolen from the Palestinians in 2005 following the "disengagement" from Gaza.
Despite their refusal being completely illegal even in terms of Israel's laws, the Knesset is annulling the charges. Of course the settlements are illegal under international law but that doesn't seem to matter.
In a move of this kind, the Israeli government is effectively saying that it is OK to steal land from Palestinians and the state will look the other way.
It is baffling how people can talk about Israel being a democracy. Not only does it maintain an apartheid state, but it legalises property theft from part of its population. Remember that very many Palestinians were originally living in Israel, have Israeli citizenship, but are refused the right to return to their homes, because those homes have been stolen from them and they were driven out of the state. That's not a democracy, it's a military state propped up by America.
You won't have heard any American politician raising any comment about the recent Knesset decision and you might wonder why.
What is peculiar is the take Americans have on the Palestinian plight. Because of some legal wrangling in the past when Israel was established by the UN, it is okay for Israel to take possesion of other peoples property and land without any interference from the rest of the world.
The apartheid that is practiced by the Israelis is okay because the Palestinians are fighting back with whatever means they have available. Any legal actions taken by the Palestinians are suppossed to be fairly heard in the Israeli court system without any predjudice is a joke.
America has its' dirty little secrets to hide because of the jewish lobby and their hands in our politics so only lip service is paid to show our displeasure.
Don't worry....Obama will fix everything! He will take a bow...apologize and tell them all to quit being so darned mean spirited.
Soon after! Jews and Muslims will dance hand in hand in the desert(sniff...tear)...tossing flowers all around them (sniff...tear) bosom buddies they'll be (Sniff...sniff...tear) Peace will abide (Crying uncontrollably!)in the Middle East!
There's a lot of very useful and interesting information available on: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
In recent months the Israeli IDF have been targetting YouTube and other media outlets with their own videos trying to justify their action in Gaza and other Palestinian areas, and this approach has been strongly supported by the US Israeli lobby.
However, there is a wealth of other material available on the internet as well which hasn't been subjected to a pro-Israeli bias. Even if you think it is biased the other way, it is still worth checking it out. Here are some clips from lots of available material:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0aEo59c … re=related
It is difficult for anyone even cursorily aware of what is happening in Gaza to come out on the side of the Israelis. It is certainly a disgrace to those politicians who pretend that somehow Israel has just cause.
People see what they want to see. Because of the 911 attacks there is little sympathy for Arabs in general. Israel has brainwashed us into demonizing these people without respect for their basic right to exist.
The American psyche has changed little from when we condoned slavery by taking people from their homes because we needed them to pick cotton. Our needs were met and the "soulless blacks" were merely beasts of burden for us to exploit.
The same can be said of the way Americans treated the native indians when through conquest we nearly annihilated them for their lands and food. The "savages" cannot appreciate what civilized people should be and act like was our excuse.
I am sorry to say America has a poor track record when it comes to treating other cultures and civilizations with respect. If there is a need for America it just moves in and takes it with some spin the populace can swallow whether it be just or even true.
The 911 attacks were termed unprovoked by the west and therefore criminal acts. The facts absent when the truth about Americas involvement of once again supporting the racist and aggressive acts of our "Number 1" ally in the Middle East.
What about Somalia or Darfur? They don't have anything we can exploit so there is little interest to do anything for them either.
The Empire of America is run on greed and aggression and we cannot look at ourselves or believe the hard truth. It is amazing that the US is not being attacked from more directions because of our actions whether active or benign.
Bob, that's a very interesting link "If Americans Knew." Thanks.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/ I hope everybody clicks on it. It might open their eyes a bit.
you fellas love discussing this topic . its cool . but Israel Palestine Gaza kinda belongs to people not even born yet . the ones fighting for it now will find themselves in the same place those before them ended up in. the sand will own them. not vic versa . i see it a fitting end for such selfish children.
If it were a isolated problem I would agree with you but America has injected itself into it and keeps backing the thorn in the side of the Palestinians through unwavering support for Israel.
The problem exists because the US wants it to exist. The mere thought of controlling the oil over there drives the Oil Companies into a frenzy. They lobby congress and whoever else will listen to do their bidding and we just fill up the tank with whatever cost the gas is and forget about the problem. The 911 attacks were a wake up call that we fabricated another dream world take on.
Where in the scriptures does God say He is against the "militant Muslims"?
Where in the scriptures does God condone the killing of innocent civilians?
Where in the scriptures does God condone the displacement of millions of refugees?
If Israel and the US can possess WMD then how come it is not permissible for any other sovereign country?
The situation in Israel is a result of man-made racism and persecution.
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I support a sustainable two state solution that both can live with. I hope such a thing exists.
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