How to Become Vice President - Never use the P-Word!

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Paragliderposted 15 years ago
In a 90 minute 'debate', neither Joe Biden nor Sarah Palin even once used the dreaded P-Word. Both candidates made a point of declaring their unquestioned support for their no.1 ally and friend in the Middle East, Israel. Biden, once only, allowed for the possibility of a "2-state solution". How many listeners had a clue what he was talking about, since the second state was never even named?

Palestine - the only country in the world that is getting smaller every day, courtesy of Israel's ongoing illegal annexation and colonisation of its territory. Then there's the Gaza strip, still under blockade, where more than a million Palestinian people are so desperate for the essentials of life that they have to rely on tunnels underneath the closed Egyptian border to bring in food, fuel and medicines. People die in these tunnels.

OK - I'm not saying Palestine good, Israel bad. Unlike the entire US foreign policy machine, I am not that simple. We have a complex and tense situation here. But it is mindless to pretend to the US electorate that Palestine simply doesn't exist and that Israel is an innocent party.

Israel is armed to the teeth, with more than 250 nuclear warheads. Iran has none. Palestine doesn't even have enough food. Let's have some balance folks.
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  daflaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I am not a big fan of Israel. I have nothing against the Jewish people, just as I have nothing against the Palestinian people, but the state of Israel is so corrupt, and cruel, and vengeful that I don't know why any civilized country would want anything to do with it.
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  Ralph Deedsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Very true. Israel has distorted American politics, Democrat and Republican. Under Bush, Netanyahu functioned almost as an ex-officio member of the cabinet. Israel has now taken Hamas' bait and is bombing the crap out of Gaza before the Bush administration ends, passing another bucket of shit to Obama.
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sandra rinckposted 15 years ago
I did clue into that. What was also of interest to me was how Palin insisted that her position at Vice President, according to her understanding and crafty manipulating of the the Constitution, that she has much power, that she can and will do more than be of sound judgement to McCain, as though she herself is the President.

Scary no? Of course Biden was quick to correct her and her rather distasteful use of our Constitution.

I also noticed that when they were asked about foriegn policy, they were talking about Iran, she changed it to Iraq. Of course our government is allies with Isreal, with all the weaponry, it would be pretty stupid not to be.

The only thing Palin is good at rhetoric. And I just loved how she said, she was honest yet we should all know by now, that that is just another lie.
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Paragliderposted 15 years ago
Hi Sandra - US didn't suddenly notice that Israel had nuclear weapons then decide to be friendly. It was the other way around. Israel is armed with US weapons.

But my question isn't really about Palin and Biden. It's more about why both of them totally ignored Palestine in their rush to side with Israel. Where is the reality check?
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knolyourselfposted 15 years ago
Joe 'I am a Zionist' Biden. Americans are the most propagandized people in the world. The Palestinians are never mentioned in America, unless it is an act of terrorism. The ruthless suppression and ethnic cleansing of the Israelis is never ever mentioned. What Americans get is the constant glorification of the Holocaust and Israel. No exceptions are allowed. As no socialists, union people, Green Party People and a host of others are ever
allowed on the US media, so it is there is almost no mention of Palestinians. The only way most leftists ever get on the media is with a book tour.
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Paragliderposted 15 years ago
Well, here's an article by Robert Fisk, correspondent on The Independent (UK) newspaper

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co … 50812.html

Maybe it should be compulsory reading for everyone in the Presidential race. I've found that even to raise this issue is to risk being labeled anti-semitic. But that's nonsense. All we really ask for is even handedness and the public recognition that there is a real issue to address, with fairness.
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Mighty Momposted 15 years ago
Hi all, I'm just tuning into the wonderful world of hub forums. Been a busy gal "debating" politics as comment threads on individual hubs.
I, too, noticed the P-word totally missing from either candidate's answers. Too controversial and not enough of a "hotbutton" issue to "waste" time on.
Obviously since you are all here thinking about this issue, here are a couple of resources I can offer:

There is a fabulous play by John Patrick Shanley that makes the Israel/Palestine conflict come alive. It's called "Dirty Story". I saw it last year and the character representing the Israel-smitten US of A was a swaggering cowboy (remind you of anyone?).

Another play about this subject is "My Name is Rachel Corrie" by Rachel Corrie and edited by the actor Alan Rickman and Katherine Viner/.
This true story is based on the journal entries of Rachel Corrie, a 23-year-old American crushed to death by an Israeli bulldozer while working in Gaza as a “human shield” protesting the razing of Palestinian homes. Rachel died protecting the home of a Palestinian pharmacist. While the play enjoyed two successful runs in London, it was deemed too controversial for New York!! So it's not just about her tragic death, it's about censorship of her story. Hmmm.

The US has been pro-Israel since its inception. I personally fear we are on the wrong side here and find it abhorrent that the Palestinian state is shrinking and shrinking, not to mention the bloodshed. I dunno, maybe Americans think Palestine is just like every other Middle East country -- a hotbed of terrorist activity. Only instead of us sending our own troops in there, we let Israel do the dirty work (LOL -- only it's not funny and not that farfetched!).

As for Palin's BLATANT play for the Florida Jewish vote, it was exposed nicely on Saturday Night Live last night, when Tina Fey said something to the effect, "Ever since I was a little child my most favorite things have been Jews ...and Cuban food."

Honestly, I doubt Palin could identify Israel, Iraq or Iran on a map. The possibility that this rabid cheerleader could end up as commander-in-chief is almost more frightening to me than nuc-U-lar war!!!
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  LondonGirlposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not sure it's quite that simple.
  
  The USA was the first country to recognise Israel in 1948, but thereafter had a policy of Middle Eastern neutrality. France supported Israel much more in the 1950s and 1960s than America did, for example. The real aid started after the Six Day War, I think.
  
  America certainly didn't support the British, French and Israelis over the Suez Crisis, as they wanted to stay in with Egypt. Although American provided some weapons to Israel in the early to mid 1960s, it was also providing them to Jordan and Egypt.
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  thranaxposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting...
  
  ~thranax~
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  Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nothing is ever simple, but one of the problems with Israel is the problem of paralysis. For a long time, there was a similar stalemate in Northern Ireland that was only unlocked when John Major reversed Mrs Thatcher's 'We will never talk to terrorists' stance.
  It's impossible to change history, but it's not impossible for the US to stop pretending that Palestine doesn't exist. It's not impossible to speak out against illegal annexation and blockades. The truth is that it is politically dangerous for a US presidential candidate to speak out on these matters because to do so guarantees being labeled anti-semitic. And that's why modern Israel can continue its criminality with impunity.
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pylos26posted 15 years ago
pareglider...you have my undivided support and attention on your subject.
the government of israel has practically every kind of offensive and defensive weopon in their arsenal as the american government has. and it seems that if they don't have it, its because they don't want it...pylos
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Make Moneyposted 15 years ago
Yeah the Rachel Corrie story is a real tragedy. One of many coming out of Palestine.

What do you think of this solution for the Palestinian/Israeli conflict?

Quotes - "There should be one unitary state in Palestine. There should be no exceptions for Jews - equal rights for all. Let us learn from Palestinian peasants - they are the bedrock to build the country upon. The power should grow from the roots, from the people."
Written by Israel Shamir, an Israeli Jew.
http://www.israelshamir.net/interview.htm

Alaska anti Sarah Palin rally
This is not a small group. It doesn't look like she has much support in her own state.
They say "Hey hockey mom keep to puck out of DC".
http://video.google.ca/videosearch?q=al … ;ct=title#

Mike
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Paragliderposted 15 years ago
Mighty Mom, Pylos & Make Money -

Thanks for joining in and supporting fairness in the region. That's all that is required (though it's difficult to achieve with so many hot-heads on both sides). Whether the end is a single state or a two state solution, it has to be by political agreement.

The other day I heard an old Israeli statesman (whose name escapes me) denouncing the concrete walls. When you build fortress Israel, it works both ways. In keeping people out, you imprison yourself. It's a crazy 'policy' with no future.

MM - thanks for the links. I'll check them out.
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Make Moneyposted 15 years ago
Your welcome Paraglider. I agree, there's no future cause the wall makes no sense.

If you scroll down on this Why are you a ... ? thread you'll find a couple of videos with some good old American ex-politicians that are starting to ban together to get the word out about the atrocities committed in Palestine. Then on the next post it shows the amount of money the US tax payer has been saddled with for the support of Israel. It's just unbelievable.

Mike
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Paragliderposted 15 years ago
Well, let's hope the word gets around. Here in the Gulf region people just shake their heads in disbelief at the continuing 'policy'. The saddest thing about it is that everyone really wants US and Israel to behave better. They want to believe that they can!
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knolyourselfposted 15 years ago
One state solution is ridiculous. Notice headlines over the weekend, fundamentalist jews are harassing less passionate ones. Does anyone ever think that they would ever in history be fair to Palestinians.
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Paragliderposted 15 years ago
Another interesting division is between strict orthodox Jews who want a religious state and westernised Jews who want to live in a secular state. Wherever you look, it's a complex picture. The most important thing is to address it honestly, politically, and in the present, without playing the holocaust or promised land cards. Here's what exists now - what is the solution?
BTW, I didn't raise this because I thought I knew the answer. I just raised it because the would-be Vice Presidents didn't.
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Make Moneyposted 15 years ago
There's also those Jews that do not even support the state of Israel like the True Torah Jews and Neturei Karta. If you do a search for 'jews against zionism' you will come up with 275,000 sites.
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&c … &meta=

Some of these web sites even claim the majority of Jews around the world do not support the state of Israel. Now that's something you'll never see in the US media.

Mike
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SweetiePieposted 15 years ago
I have worked with several Palestinian women whose families had left because of the chaos there. One thing I was always grateful was I had a high school history teacher that told the truth and did not just give the propaganda lecture of Israel good and Palestine bad, because the real situation is much more complicated as there are good and bad people on both sides, such like any society on earth. Many Palestinians were forcibly removed from their homelands and the ones who remain behind are subject to daily abuse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH0o_07BBk0

Personally I disapprove of violence on both the Israeli and Palestinian side, but for far too long the former has been perceived as completely innocent and justified in their actions. I just read the biography by Queen Noor and she has many insightful observations as an American who married the King of Jordan. I recommend it for anyone who is interested in learning more about the region from an objective point of view. Queen Noor said many times in her book she supports Israel, but the Palestinians also need the right to a state.
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Make Moneyposted 15 years ago
That is quite the revealing video about what Palestinians have to deal with every day from these zionist pukes Sweetie Pie.

Last night on the news channel it showed that everything that comes into Gaza has to be smuggled through underground tunnels from Egypt because of the Israeli blockades around Gaza. There would not be anything coming into Gaza without the tunnels. It seems that Israel wants to starve the Palestinians in Gaza to death.

Here's another video that clearly shows zionist hate.
Zionists attack Muslims & Christians. Zionist HATE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYuWOi56Wq0

We have been hearing these horror stories for too long. When is the world going to wake up and do something about these atrocities committed by zionists against Palestinians.

Israel is a welfare state supported by the American tax payer. The above is what you are supporting.

Quotes from this web page,
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/usaid.html

"On average, the U.S gave more than $6.8 million to Israel each day ... during Fiscal Year 2007." Times 365.

"This number does not include the $137.894 million we spent on joint U.S.-Israeli missile defense projects or the $1.4 billion in loan guarantees made available to Israel in 2007."

"Since the October War in 1973, Washington has provided Israel with a level of support dwarfing the amounts provided to any other state."

"U.S. tax dollars are subsidizing one of the most powerful foreign militaries."

"Thanks in part to this indirect U.S. subsidy, Israel’s arms industry has become one of the strongest in the world. “In 2006, it was the 9th leading supplier of arms worldwide."

The Costs to American Taxpayers of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: $3 Trillion
http://www.wrmea.com/archives/june2003/0306020.html
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Paragliderposted 15 years ago
Bumping this thread to the top, because -

Israel's Christmas offensive on Gaza has killed about 200 people in three days, and it now seems likely that it will be followed up with a ground assault. The 'reason' for the offensive is rocket attacks from Gaza.

Perhaps part of the reason for the rocket attacks is helplessness. The Gaza Strip has been blockaded for many months. The people are without essentials. Food, medicine, fuel are only available through underground tunnels under the sealed Egyptian border. People die trying to keep these tunnels open.

Gaza's 'rockets' are pieces of pipe with fins welded on and filled with homemade explosives. They can't be aimed and rarely kill. In fact, in 7 years, they have killed 14 people. Israel's response is disproportionate, as it always is.

If I was a young man in a country under siege, without work, without hope, and hungry, I think I might be tempted to try building the occasional rocket. How about you?

Meanwhile, the US continues to afford Israel unconditional support.
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  LondonGirlposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think Israel's attack on Gaza is unwise. It's rare that bombing a place makes the population turn against its own government. Aside from all the other issues, it's not going to work.
  
  But "reason" is a bit disingenuous. My other half has cousins who live in Sderot, in Israel, near the border. And even through the truce, there were rockets landing every single day.
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  Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't condone the rocket attacks. But what is the value of a 'truce' where one side retains total control of the other's borders, imports, movement of people? The blockade has killed far more people than the rockets have. And, like the rockets (which can't be aimed) the blockade mostly kills children and the elderly.
  
  Let's also state that living somewhere doesn't make you an expert. If you want to understand US foreign policy, foe example, probably the worst place to live is the US. I suggest the same applies to Israel. The world can see what is happening there. Though in some places, most notably the US, the truth is cloaked by the networks.
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  Sufidreamerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Afternoon ,Paraglider
  
  Once again, the debate turns full circle. I saw today, on the Greek news, that Dubya has condemned the rocket attacks as 'acts of terrorism'. This view has some justification, but there is no equal criticism of the Israeli Government, no call for moderation. This thread has brought many different views, and has been surprisingly civilised, because we all seem to agree that it has gone on long enough.
  
  The process needs mediation through a neutral party. I do not believe that the UN, as stated by a previous poster, is evil. Toothless is a better adjective. In the absence of a strong UN, the US is the logical choice, but their neutrality long since disappeared. I can only hope that the new administration brings a new outlook, but I fear that nothing will change.
  
  It has to change.
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  Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Greetings - the UN would of course be stronger if the US supported it, but they don't. The US doesn't want a strong UN or for that matter a strong Europe. (When I say the US, I mean the recent incumbent & team).
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  Sufidreamerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed - the US has remained unrivalled for a few years, but there are signs that the balance of power is changing. Europe is becoming less reliant on the US and the sleeping Russian Giant has stirred. That is without throwing China and India into the mix.
  
  Coming back to Israel, and the Middle East in general, it seems that the US is continuing the Cold War policy of surrounding Russia with allies and military bases. The Balkans and Turkey also appear to be part of this plan, caught between the US, Europe and Russia. The 'Cold War' has moved from a militaristic stand-off to an economic tussle and the diplomatic chess continues.
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  LondonGirlposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't live in Israel - as my name might suggest, I'm in the UK.
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  Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I know. Sorry - only the first part of my comment was in response to your post. But the bit about locality was more directed to Truly Different who was effectively saying that only people on the spot know what's happening. I don't go along with that.
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Make Moneyposted 15 years ago
The count is over 300 dead now. Shame on Israel.
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  Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Indeed, and on all who lend them unconditional support. But such people know no shame.
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  Sufidreamerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  This is governmentally sanctioned murder - the Israeli administration cannot bring peace with bombs and death.
  
  For all of his faults, Clinton worked wonders in Ireland by refusing to take sides. I never thought that I would see Adams and Paisley occupy the same room.
  
  I hope that the new US administration will genuinely attempt to carry on the good work, and bring the two sides to the negotiating table.
  
  Unfortunately, I fear that Obama will be so paranoid about being labelled a Muslim that nothing will change.
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allshookupposted 15 years ago
Israel didn't break the treaty. The Palestinians did. I know this is not gonna be a popular post, but it's true. Israel didn't shoot first. Now the ones who started it are complaining because Israel is not sitting there waiting to be bombed.
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  Uninvited Writerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  90% of the people killed are totally innocent. They should not be killed just because of where they have to live.
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  LondonGirlposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hamas have a nasty habit of deliberately siting military systems (incl. rocket launchers) in densely-populated civilian areas. A pretty cynical thing for them to do.
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Sufidreamerposted 15 years ago
Sorry ASU, but the British Government adopted the same policy in Northern Ireland, and it does not work. For every innocent person you kill, you create countless terrorists. You are talking about one of the best equipped armies on Earth against guys with a few rockets.

Talking and negotiation is the only way - it worked in Ireland, and it is starting to bear fruit in Cyprus. Cut out the hate-mongers, on both sides, and peace may yet be salvaged.
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allshookupposted 15 years ago
It would be really nice if someone in the world was able to have rational talks with Hamas, but I don't think Israel, nor anyone else for that matter, will be able to reason with Hamas. Israel was trying to keep peace by keeping their word in the treaty. It was Hamas that began this. I hate that people are being killed, but Isreal didn't start this and Hamas is still firing into Israel right now. I don't think as long as Hamas is firing rockets into Israel that they are going to cease what they are doing. If Hamas would stop, Israel could talk to them. I don't think Hamas wants peace. It seems they are only wanting what they start and don't care who gets killed as long as they are creating havock. This concerns me a lot because people are dying and also it effects most of the world. I understand that Israel has fewer people killed. But again, they were trying to keep peace, it is Hamas that don't want that. Israel is trying to only hit places where they know Hamas is. Unlike Hamas who is firing anywhere and everywhere. I hope that it can quickly come to a cease-fire. But, Hamas has to keep it's end of the bargain when they say they will be peaceful. I don't understand why people are griping at Israel when they are the ones who kept their word and tried to keep peace and Hamas is the one who started this whole thing and is continuing it as I type this. What about Hamas? Where are all the people criticizing them? Where is the outrage toward Iran for bankrolling this for Hamas?
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  Sufidreamerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Israel has a long history of not keeping its word. It continually encroaches upon Palestinian territory and does little to prevent illegal settlements springing up in Palestinian territory. This is a clear violation of International Law. How about reasoning with Israel? A lesson in futility, and a crying shame. I know people from Israel, and they want peace and negotiation, but the Government continually ignores the will of the population, preferring to follow a right-wing militaristic agenda.
  
  There is a disproportionate amount of force used here. A few years ago, the IRA exploded a device in England, killing a lot of people. Did this give the British Government the right to indiscriminately fire missiles into the Catholic areas of Belfast. No - you cannot kill innocent people to punish a few terrorists. Personally, I have always tried to avoid being anti-Israeli, believing that there are extremists on both sides. Generally, I am no supporter of Hamas, either, but the Palestinians are slowly starving to death and have been reduced to desperation.
  
  This time, Israel has gone too far - restricting people to ghettos and blockading food and medicine happened before, about 70 years ago. The Israelis, of all people on this Earth, should know better.
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  LondonGirlposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I agree. But I think many Israelis who survived the Holocaust learned a different set of lessons. They learned to strike fast, and hard, and to trust no-one. My other half's grandfather, who survived as a Polish Jew (but lost his wife, sons, mother and brothers) said, "A Jew has no friend but another Jew, and no home but Israel."
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allshookupposted 15 years ago
Again, where is the outrage against Hamas for their actions and Iran for paying for their attack? Israel did not draw first blood in this situation. Why is no one mentioning this?

Sufidreamer, I did read all of your post in reference to my post, and I appreciate you taking the time to post, but you didn't answer the question I asked. And it's an honest question because I can't understand why people are not mentioning Hamas and Iran.

Why does no one have hard feelings against the people started this particular situation? It wasn't Israel. They were keeping peace since June.

And about International law, I don't see why Israel should be accountable to that but Hamas and Iran isn't.

Just so you know, I hate war, I hate this is happening. I have friends over there who are scared for their lives. I am praying for a quick cease-fire. But, I honestly don't feel that anyone can reason with Hamas, as they proven by breaking the peace. Also, Iran has the money to fund this for Hamas. If they have the money for that, why do they not send money, food and supplies for the Palestinian people? Because they don't care about them at all. They only care about attacking Israel. They don't care how many people don't have food or medicine or how many get killed. They only care about what they want, and that is to make war with Israel. But, that's never mentioned. Why?

Also, Israel tried to talk to Hamas today in a effort to try to stop the whole thing. Israel offered to stop firing and give Hamas a chance to stop and try the peace treaty again, but Hamas refused to talk to Israel.
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  Sufidreamerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No problem ASU - hope you don't take anything personally. Israel/Palestine is in our neighbourhood here, so it is the subject of passionate debate in Greece.
  
  I did answer the original post - I said that I have no time for Hamas, but the amount of force used is disproportionate. The Israeli army is one of the best equipped on Earth, so unleashing its full force against Gaza is like using a shotgun against a three year old. You talk about first blood, but starving people into submission is one of the oldest weapons of war. The Israeli blockade is a weapon designed to kill and the weakest members of the society, such as the young and the old, die first.
  
  Iran are no angels, but their influence in Gaza is limited. If Iran was funding Hamas and giving them weapons, why are the rockets home-made? Surely, with Iranian money, they could buy smart missiles. If we are bringing up the issue of third party funding, 95% of the funds used to buy weapons for the IRA was raised in the US. Where was the condemnation then? What about the billions of dollars given by the US to buy the Israeli missiles that are now killing innocents?
  
  To answer your other argument, even if Iran purchased food and medicine, the Israelis would not let it in, so the point is moot. Just today, a boat carrying medical supplies was rammed by the Israeli navy, in International waters. The boat was carrying a Gibraltar flag, so this is an act of aggression against the UK. The boat sailed from Cyprus, so the Greeks are pretty angry, too.
  
  You talk about reasoning with Hamas - what about reasoning with the Israeli administration? They consistently flout International Agreements - the last Israeli Prime Minister to try to bring peace was assassinated by one of his own people. I used the example of Bill Clinton, as a neutral, bringing the two sides of the Irish situation together and encouraging them to negotiate. The speeches given by the US administration are one sided and only serve to inflame the situation, not heal.
  
  Yet another tricky situation for the new president to deal with. The sooner that the uber-terrorist is out of office, the better.
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  LondonGirlposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Quite a lot of British people used to get rather upset about it!
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Uninvited Writerposted 15 years ago
It never changes. It is obvious that neither side wants peace; all they want is to eliminate each other. Reprisals do nothing more than escalate the violence. You would think after 60 years that they would have realized that. So, to me it proves they don't want peace. There almost was peace in Israel, but then Rabin was assassinated and his replacement was a war monger.

Plenty of people condemn Hamas constantly. Do you have proof it is all funded by Iran?
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  WeddingConsultantposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thought I'd chime in here:
  http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ … -funds.htm
  
  $3 million a year comes from Iran, in case you were wondering
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  This web site above says "Hamas had an annual budget of 50 million dollars" and "Iran - Its contribution is estimated at $3 million a year."
  
  So only 6% of Hamas support comes from Iran.
  
  $3 million a year coming from Iran in support of Hamas seems minuscule compared to "On average, the U.S gave more than $6.8 million to Israel each day ... during Fiscal Year 2007."
  
  There is twice as much support coming from the U.S. taxpayer each day to Israel as there is from Iran to Hamas annually.
  
  In these troubling financial times Obama would be smart to make one of his highest priorities to end financial support for Israel.
  
  Let's face it, Israel does not need this support any more seeing they have the 5th largest military in the world and just recently I heard they are the 4th or 5th largest exporter of weaponry world wide.
  
  Mike
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SirDentposted 15 years ago
Just for everyone's information, from what I can gather, Hamas Headquarters is based in Egypt. Egyptian law says it is an illegal group, yet they allow them to be there. They say that food and humanitarian aid is smuggled up from Egypt, but they do not admit that guns and ammunition are also smuggled through the tunnels. Israel does not use suicide bombers to kill innocent victims. They planned for about a week to ensure minimum non military casualties.

Israel could wipe out all the Palestinian people if they wanted to and has had many chances to do so , but have not done it.

Israel did allow humanitarian aid and cooking fuel through the blockades a couple days ago.

Hamas is sending rockets into Israel, but expect them to take it and do nothing. As soon as the ceasefire agreement was up, they started sending rockets.

Israel is attempting to rid the land of Hamas and their rocket launchers. They are not bombing non military targets.

Editing after posting the first time.

It has nothing at all to do with Obama.
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allshookupposted 15 years ago
SirDent, you are right. About the tunnels. They send many things through those tunnels. That's where they get the ingredients to make the rockets. An Israeli official is on TV right now saying that they are trying again right now to talk to Hamas to try to get a cease-fire and the peace treaty back in place. But, they still will not talk to Israel. If they would stop firing at Israel, then supplies could get into the Gaza strip. It's Hamas that is holding things up, not Israel. They want peace and keep trying to get it. Like you said, and I think many don't see, Isreal could have already blown the Palestinians away, but they don't do that. They have the power to do it. They've had the power. Yet chose not to. Yet, it's Isreal who gets criticized and Hamas gets the sympathy.

Like I said, I have friends there who are fearing for their lives. I pray for safety and a case-fire. But, if Hamas refuses to talk and continues what they are doing, no one can expect Israel to sit still and be attacked.
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knolyourselfposted 15 years ago
Hamas is the legitimately elected, as in voting goverment of Gaza. Hamas must be destroyed by Israel because they refuse to apologize for the theft of Palistine by the Israelis.
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allshookupposted 15 years ago
Hamas needs to be destroyed because they are terrorists. They are the ones who broke the peace. They are the ones who began this. Knowing full well Israel has weapons. Hamas chose this. They don't want it to end, or they would talk to Israel about cease-fire and go back into the peace treaty.
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knolyourselfposted 15 years ago
Ya ever heard of the blockade around Gaza of all food, medicine, oil,
electricity etc. for the last six months. Probably not. It's not allowed.
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  LondonGirlposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I thought Israel actually supplied most of Gaza's electricity, and for the last 6 months supplies have definintely been going in through Israel.
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allshookupposted 15 years ago
SirDent addressed that in his post above.

Got to go to the Doctor now.

Talk to y'all later on.
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Uninvited Writerposted 15 years ago
You might be surprised that the founders of Israel were considered to be terrorists at one time.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  As were America's founding fathers
  
  But you are talking to right-wing christian fascists here, and are wasting your breath. They are big on killing innocent civilians to achieve an impossible goal.
  
  Both Sir Dent and ASU favor heavy killing like it says in the bible. None of this turn-the-other-cheek, love thy fellow man rubbish. Terrorists need killing regardless of the human costs.
  
  One man's terrorist is another man's collateral damage. Don't get me wrong, I am not in favor of Hamas throwing hand made missiles at Israel, but this response is disproportionate and any one who stands up and defends this slaughter is a poor excuse for a human being. Oddly enough, it tends to be the so-called christians in favor. Hmmmm.....
  
  The only innocents are the unborn - right ASU?
  
  As usual, you are demonstrating your complete ignorance and despicable "family values" for all to see.
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  kerrygposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Is that one of these poor girls?
  
  Man, this whole situation is making me ill. The person above who said Obama would probably be too paranoid about being labeled a Muslim sympathizer to change our policies towards Israel and Palestine was probably right, but I, for one, am praying he does, and I was heartened earlier to see I'm not the only one: http://change.gov/openforquestions
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Mark
  
  I understand why you say "Oddly enough, it tends to be the so-called christians in favor."
  
  But it is just Christians that believe in the Rapture and the Millennial Myth that support the U.S. foreign policy for the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.
  
  And I mean myth when referring to the millennial period. It's not Biblical at all. And it gives Christians a bad name.
  
  Misty a girl that generally attacks organized religion in the Hub forums periodically (and I don't blame her some times) wrote what I think is a very good Hub on the Rapture and the Millennial Myth. She did some good research. In fact I think most televangelists and pre-tribulation and post-tribulation millennialists should read it.
  
  Also we have had an ongoing discussion about this in the Religion part of the Hubpages forums under the thread title RELIGION VS THE BIBLE.
  
  This new movement regarding the Millennial Myth (it's just over 100 years old) that they belong to is actually pushing God's hand and working for the other side.
  
  Here's a quote that I posted 2 weeks ago in the RELIGION VS THE BIBLE thread.
  
  This new movement regarding the Millennial Myth is mostly just in the U.S. and England.
  
  Mike
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Mike,
  
  Thank you for those links, but it was not necessary. I am well aware that the bible is a political tool, and many christians use it to justify killing small children for monetary gain. I agree - there is no such thing as a god and this book is a poor attempt to ensure the current political power structure stays the same, no matter the cost in human suffering and pain.
  
  This is why so many so-called christians are ill all the time. It is called cognitive dissonance. When your preacher tells you one thing and you try to pretend to believe in a caring god, and a loving jesus who saved you; yet you favor using nuclear weapons on civilians; when you say you love everyone when really you hate them and want to see them dead if they do not subscribe to your version, this sets up a massive contradiction in your body.
  
  This is why America, which is a "christian," nation uses so many drugs and therapists. Because all the christians become ill from trying to believe with their head something that their heart tells them is wrong.
  
  Example - God.
  
  No one actually believes in a god. They just say they do. They even argue in favor of this god and say they have a book that says what god wants. Even though they know it was really written by men, and has been mis-translated over and over so there is no way it actually is the word of god. When they passionately try and argue in favor of what this god wants which often involves killing other people and imposing rules on others, this once again sets up a clash. Deep down they get a message from their hearts telling them this is all a lie, and they ignore this message. Then they get sick. Just look through the forum threads and see how many here have long-term illnesses.
  
  Its a shame really, because the people who really pay the price are the people who end up with an Israeli missile in their family home while the "christians" back in the US and the UK feel like they are doing god's work and sharing His love by supporting this.
  
  Happy New Year
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Good point. One of the hubbers who lived in Israel even shared this point on one hub, but it was some people living here in the USA who did not believe it. Mostly because it went against their interpretation of the Bible.
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Besides Israeli terrorism against American property like the SS Liberty or the Lavon Affair (two other false flag operations) and numerous terrorist attacks against Palestinians here's a quick list of zionist terrorism.
  
  Ironically this web site, 'SS Liberty' Sails to Challenge Israel says "Forty-one years after the American surveillance ship USS Liberty was napalmed, torpedoed and strafed by Israeli naval and air forces during the Six-Day War, another "Liberty" will be setting out from a Cyprus port in August to try to break through the Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip.".
  
  Mike
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  LondonGirlposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I wouldn't. My other half's great-uncle tried to blow up my grandfather in Palestine!
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Sufidreamerposted 15 years ago
The Romans probably had Jesus down as a terrorist - he certainly fomented rebellion against the rulers of the state.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
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Paragliderposted 15 years ago
Well, I'm glad I did bump the thread back to the top. Clearly people 'have views' about it. Let me restate a couple of figures - 14 people killed in 7 years by home made rockets from Gaza. 300 killed in three days by Israeli forces.

About these tunnels - let's just remember why they are there - because without them thousands more would already have starved to death.

To defend Israel in this particular adventure is untenable. Most civilised countries and the UN have protested. Israel's only support comes from the US. Again.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I had always admired the Israelis for carving themselves a place in a difficult time, but slowly they have become that which they were rebelling against.
  
  Which sounds like a familiar story
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Pretty much my sentiment, too. I used to be totally pro-Israel just a few years ago, but by now I have a much more balanced opinion on the matter, even more in favor of Palestine. I totally don't approve of what Israel is doing nowadays.
  
  To give you Americans the idea of why Palestinians keep fighting against Israel - try to imagine that in an attempt to compensate for genocide against Native American population UN decided to return to the Indian tribes, who originally owned the land, a big chunk of US territory including Manhattan and District of Columbia.
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Sufidreamerposted 15 years ago
Really hope so, Kerryg. I just worry that the barbs thrown by the right wing press during the election campaign may have stuck.
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knolyourselfposted 15 years ago
Someone wrote that Obama is the first Jewish president, meaning most of his backing for his whole career, this someone documented as being Jewish. Obama has said nothing so far and he won't say anything against Israel in the future. Same ol, same ol 4 more years.
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Uninvited Writerposted 15 years ago
Has the current president said anything about it? I've been trying to avoid the news over Christmas.
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pylos26posted 15 years ago
Paraglider…Your timing is perfect to bring this thread back to light…the murdering of the Palestinian people (including women and children) is horrific, but to witness one’s own government furnishing the war paraphernalia for such despicable acts is depressing at best and rallies one toward being an ashamed American. pylos
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pgrundyposted 15 years ago
We just watched "Don't Mess With The Zohan" --the Adam Sandler movie about an Israeli counter-terrorist who fakes his own death so he can come to America and become a hairdresser. He ends up working in a shop owned by a Palestinian woman whose brother is his counter-terrorist arch-rival.

OK, at this moment maybe it's not so funny, but there was actually some good stuff in it.

In one scene he tells his parents he wants to be a hairdresser because he doesn't like killing and this war will never end. His dad says, "Job security!" and his Mom says, "The war has already been going on for 2000 years--it will probably end very soon!"

It's hard to understand from over here. The only thing I can relate it to is the ongoing rancor between the fundies and the rest of us here. We aren't lobbing bombs at each other yet, but I don't see that outcome as impossible, unfortunately.

It's too bad it has to be that exact patch of land. We could give Israel Texas and the Palestinians Detroit and create peace if it didn't have to be that exact patch of land. We aren't really using either of those places here in the U.S. and I'm sure sure both groups would take better care of them.
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ReuVeraposted 15 years ago
I didn’t want to come here, as I knew that I’ll just get upset and won’t be able to prove anything. I’ll tell just one thing- the information you have is one-sided. As a matter of fact, you have huge misinformation about Israel. It’s up to you to compare facts which you can find on the web or you can just keep having your minds open for junk they put into you.
So that you know- Israel lets ALL HUMANITARIAN help go through their crossing points now. Egypt, by the way, wouldn’t open their borders for this and has the right to do so. As well as Israel has the right not to let. Hamas demanded from Israel to let ALL international help, including weapons, go through Israel. Israel agreed to let only humanitarian help, but refused to allow weapons. Do you consider this cruel? Ha-ha-ha and again three-ha-ha.
You think that all killed in Gaza are civilians. You are very wrong. There is a very small % of peaceful people among killed. But you wouldn’t accept it anyway, so why bother proving it to you?
Israel does not fight against Gaza people, it fights against terrorists, who are hiding behind the backs of civilians and firing their rockets from living quarters. People, just be reasonable to see this.
Yesterday, December 31st, Israel accepted through their crossing point EREZ wounded Arabs from Gaza, mostly women. They admitted them to Hospital “Soroka”, in Ashkelon, where doctors equally treat Arabs and Jews wounded during those days. By the way, Hospital “Soroka” in Ashkelon is in the radius of bombing.
Hamas is shedding rockets without aim, actually, aiming civilian objects. Israel shots certain points, destroying weapon storages. Who is to blame that those weapon storages are made in civilian quarters, that Hamas is using their people as live shields, while Hamas leaders are hiding in hospitals and jails dressed in staff uniforms? You didn’t know this? Well, you just don’t want to know.
Today, January 1st 2009, 8-stores house in Ashdod, a city where I lived, was the victim of bombing. The upper store was destroyed. No one was killed, as people left the house into shelters after the siren. Shortly after this Israeli Air Forces destroyed the shooting point from where the rocket came. Who is bad?
I’m sick and tired of trying to prove something on those who does not want to see though they have eyes, do not want to hear though they have ears, and don’t want to think though they have their own good brains.
Yeah, one more thing before I leave- poor Gaza people don’t have anything to eat, because Israel don’t welfare them? Gosh, are they disabled? Don’t Arabs have land (the same type of soil Israel has)? Excuse me; can they harvest their own food? Well, they don’t have time for this. Too busy shedding rockets. By the way again, many Arabs men are very educated. They used to get free education in Soviet Union. Many of them know Russian. All Arabs know Hebrew too. Israeli Army always informs Gaza civilians before shooting, by the radio and by flyers, both in Hebrew and Arabic.
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  Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Look at the figures. You'll notice nobody here is saying Hamas are saints. But the mass killings in the past few days by the heavily armed Israeli State are wholly disproportionate. (unless, of course you think that the international community are entirely deluded?)
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  According to this news report the death toll in Gaza has reached 400, with more than 1,000 wounded. Three Israeli civilians and one soldier have died. Hamas said today that it would accept a cease-fire with Israel, though it attached conditions including a lifting of Israel’s blockade of Gaza. Sounds like a reasonable agreement to me.
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  ReuVeraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It seems like you are upset that Israel doesn’t have enough casualties. At least not as much as Gaza inhabitants have… Gaza keeps their civilians as live shields, in spite the beforehand warnings to leave the places that are going to be bombed by Israeli Air Forces. Israeli people try to take shelter in special rooms in their homes basements. This is some statistics of rocket bombing of Israel from Gaza territory:
  
  January 2009 (on the 01/01/09)- 14 shootings/shelling, 31 rockets. No casualties.
  Year of 2008-
  December. 165 shootings, 338 rockets. 4 killed, 50 wounded.
  November. 43 shootings, 105 rockets. 10 wounded.
  October. 3 shootings, 3 rockets. No casualties.
  September. 2 shootings, 2 rockets. No casualties.
  August. 7 shootings, 7 rockets. No casualties.
  July. 3 shootings, 4 rockets. No casualties.
  June. 31 shooting, 73 rockets. 1 killed, 14 wounded.
  May. 65 shootings, 121 rockets. 2 killed. 34 wounded.
  April. 72 shootings, 152 rockets. 2 wounded.
  March. 84 shootings, 216 rockets. 18 wounded.
  February. 93 shootings, 260 ракет. 1 killed, 28 wounded.
  January. 80 shootings, 208 rockets. 6 wounded.
  Year of 2007- 437 shootings/shelling, approximately 760 rockets – 2 killed, 125 wounded.
  Year of 2006. 580 shootings, apprx 1.020 rockets – 2 killed, 36 wounded.
  Year of 2005. 123 shootings, apprx 270 rockets – 3 killed, 26 wounded.
  Year of 2004. 118 shootings, apprx 260 rockets – 5 killed, 46 wounded.
  Year of 2003. 80 shootings, apprx 100 rockets – No casualties.
  Year of 2002. 17 shootings, apprx 20 rockets – No casualties.
  Year of 2001. 5 shootings, 5 rockets – No casualties.
  
  Would you laugh at me if I say that G-d keeps his hands on Israel? Always did and always will.
  P.S. Yes, about that “Hamas said today that it would accept a cease-fire with Israel, though it attached conditions including a lifting of Israel’s blockade of Gaza”. They also wanted ALL international help be passed to them, including weapons. Israel is letting in humanitarian help, as I’ve said already, but no wonder they refused to accept all conditions.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  God is on your side. Sure on one level it is funny, that some one is dumb enough to believe this stuff, but on another level it breeds distaste, distrust, hatred and animosity. Which is presumably what your god wants. Nice........
  
  Unfortunately it is funny the way a train crash is funny.......
  
  That is the problem when people like you get their "facts" straight from god. But not to worry, there are a couple of others on the thread that get their facts from the same place and are big fans of killing in the name of the lord.
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  Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  ReuVera - that is a wicked thing to say. You should apologise.
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  Truly Differentposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I can relate to this statistics. I lived through it. People here discuss things they can not relate to personally, therefore their judgments are biased. I will never criticize or accuse or even get into discussions on Ireland/England, or Khorvatia, or Georgia conflict if I don’t know people living there and can’t talk to people from there. I don’t believe TV, newspapers, radio etc.
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  SweetiePieposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  However, the point is there are two sides to every story, so we must also listen to the side of Arabs living through this debacle in Gaza.
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  ReuVeraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are absolutely right, SweetiePie. Gaza civilians are the same victims as Israeli people. No one argues that they don’t suffer. They suffer more than anyone, as they are victims of their own leadership.
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  allshookupposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  ReuVera,
  Thank you for doing all of that work to show us. It's not often seen on this kind of hub. Good work.
  
  Truely Different,
  I think you are right that we would be better off not believing what we see on TV, in news papers, on the radio, or the internet. (And also a ton of what we read on hubpages concerning certain subjects )
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  Sufidreamerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  RueVera - As most of us stated before, we have little time for Hamas either. Side does not come into it - unless you mean on the side of peace. Sending the tanks in is not going to make Hamas go away but will make them stronger - each bomb is a recruiting Sergeant.
  
  My point is that the two sides must negotiate, and need a 'neutral' mediator. I lived in Ireland at the end of the Troubles there, and it took the US administration to sit both sides down and instigate proceedings. It has not been an easy process, but they are almost there, and Northern Ireland is a more prosperous place.
  
  Throwing bombs at each other helps nobody, and both sides need to make compromises.
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allshookupposted 15 years ago
ReuVera,

Please know that all of us on hubpages do not feel the same way that most of these posts reflect. I, for one, don't. I will always support Israel, always have, always will. They are in the right. Many watch CNN or some website and take their words for whatever is said. I am glad you told the information about Isreal letting through all those supplies. That seems to be lacking in the posts on here. Also it's not told in the mass media. Great job. I'm sorry that there are so many who don't understand what is really going on over there. Just know that you are not alone in supporting Israel on hubpages. Thanks again for sharing what is really going on there.
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  ReuVeraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you, your support means a lot. G-d bless you.
  
  "3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."- Genesis 12 (King James Version)
  
  -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  
  It seems like people don't understand that Israel will love to negotiate, but it's not up to Israel only. It's a two-way road. It was not Israel, who began escalation.
  -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Make Moneyposted 15 years ago
Mark I'm not saying that I don't believe in God. I'm with the majority that believe that our lives mean more than a blade of grass.

Contrary to what some believe most Christians do follow the "turn-the-other-cheek, love thy fellow man rubbish".

When we do there is no "cognitive dissonance" and no need for drugs or therapists.

I posted what I did to show that dispensational millennialism is a fabrication and that it is the main cause of the Palestinian/Israel conflict.

Happy New Year to you too
Mike
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ah, the McDonalds approach - very good. A lot of people think they are important and cannot see that they are just another animal, therefore I will too.
  
  See - this is the cognitive dissonance I am talking about. How are you feeling?
  
  Not the ones on this thread....
  
  More proof of cognitive dissonance denial. The facts speak for themselves. You sure you are OK?
  
  Thanks - looking forward to a good one if the entire world doesn't get itself involved in a stupid war to boost the economy........
  
  Not even worth responding to the war-mongers. Talk about cognitive dissonance.
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Sufidreamerposted 15 years ago
A blockade and sanctions could be seen as an escalation.
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  ReuVeraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  http://www.jpost.com/
  
  Blockade and sanctions are consequences, not causes. Israel is a sovereign country and as any sovereign country has a full right for self-defense.
  
  I don't want to argue, it was a mistake that I came to this forum at the first place. I just wanted to give some updates from the "first hand" how things are in Israel.
  
  About “Israeli terrorists” list- as they say, “there’s no family without a monster”.
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Then just stop arguing, it's that easy
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  allshookupposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  ReuVera,
  Please don't feel that it was a mistake. Don't let anyone make you feel that way for sharing what is in your heart that what you know is the truth. I hate that you were made to feel bad. You are talking to people who is there on the ground and knows what is going on. So, therefore you know what's happening. I don't understand why people would argue with you about it. Just because they talk against you doesn't make them right. I appreciate that you took the time to let us know what's going on. The forum can be a hard place if you don't line up with certain people or have certain beliefs. Don't let them get to you! That's the one goal of many of them. Stay strong!!
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Truly Differentposted 15 years ago
Truly Different

Which country in the middle east would substitute for Israel as the only reliable ally in the region?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If Israel's founders were "terrorists" then I wish Al Qaeda and Hamas would petition the UN for their grievances, use diplomacy instead of bombs, and then ultimately create a stable country in the middle of the desert.
James stenzel, the owner of the quoted anti-Semitic site, is a true atheist, as he himself said. Just a note. (for me “atheist” is an equivalent of “communist”)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Famous ROPMA.NET Muzzie Terrorism Quiz!
A multiple-choice quiz that tests your memory of Islam's crimes against the United States of America.
________________________________________
#1 In 1968 who assassinated Robert Kennedy?
(a) Abbie Hoffman
(b) Tiny Tim
(c) Charles Manson
(d) Muslim male extremist between the age of 17 and 40

#2 In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by:
(a) Olga Korbett
(b) Sitting Bull
(c) Arnold Schwarzenegger
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#3 In 1979,the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by:
(a) Lost Norwegians
(b) Elvis
(c) A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#4 During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
(a) John Dillinger
(b) The King of Sweden
(c) The Boy Scouts
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#5 In 1981, Pope John Paul II was shot 4 times in an assasination attempt by: (Updated by ROPMA Reader Michele.)
(a) Christopher Columbus
(b) Gene Simmons of "KISS"
(c) Vlad the Impaler,
(d) Muslim male extremists between the age of 17 and 40. (Name: Mehmet Ali Hagca)

#5 In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
(a) A Domino's pizza delivery boy
(b) Pee Wee Herman
(c) Geraldo Rivera making up for a slow news day
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

#6 In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked, and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard by:
(a) The Smurfs
(b) Davy Jones
(c) The Little Mermaid
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

#7 In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a U.S. Navy diver was murdered by:
(a) Captain Kidd
(b) Charles Lindbergh
(c) Mother Teresa
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#8 In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
(a) Scooby Doo
(b) The Tooth Fairy
(c) Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid with dynamite left over from the train job.
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40 ** Update - Libya Accepted Responsibility. Libya is a Muslim country. **

#9 In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
(a) Richard Simmons
(b) Grandma Moses
(c) Michael Jordan
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#10 In 1996 19 Americans were killed and hundreds more woulded at
the U.S. Military complex at Khobar Towers, Saudi Arabia because of attacks by: (Update by ROPMA Reader Steven K.)
(a) The Verizon Guy (Can you hear me now?)
(b) Domino's Pizza "noid"
(c)Clinton Administration Secretary of State Madeline Albright
(d)Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#11 In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
(a) Mr. Rogers
(b) Hillary, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems
(c) The World Wrestling Federation to promote its next villain: "Mustapha the Merciless"
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#12 In 2000, The USS Cole was attacked and more than 15 American Sailors were killed by:
(a) David Letterman
(b) Shaquille O'Neil
(c) The Cookie Monster
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#13 On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked and destroyed and thousands of people were killed by:
(a) Bugs Bunny, Wile Coyote, Daffy Duck, and Elmer Fudd
(b) The Supreme Court of Florida
(c) Mr. Bean
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#14 In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
(a) Enron
(b) The Lutheran Church
(c) The NFL
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#15 In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
(a) Bonny and Clyde
(b) Captain Kangaroo
(c) Billy Graham
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#16 In 2001 Phillipene Missionaries Gracia and Martin Burnham were kidnapped, held for over a year, and Martin subsequently killed by:
(a) Mr. Rogers
(b) Scooby Doo & Shaggy
(c) Ronald Reagan
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#17 On July 4th 2002, 2 Innocent Airline Passengers Were Killed, And 3 Others Injured at the ticket counter of El Al Airlines in the LAX International terminal by:
(a) Hulk Hogan after losing the WWF Title
(b) The cast of Monty Python
(c) Senator Lil' Tommy Daschle
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 41

#18 On July 31st 2002 5 Americans were killed by a Palestinian HAMAS bomber in Jerusalem while attending school by:
(a) The US Congress
(b) The Tooth Fairy
(c) The Easter Bunny
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

#19 On October 12th 2002 more than 200 innocent civilians (including 200 Australians and 5 Americans) were brutally murdered by:
(a) Kermit the Frog & Miss Piggy
(b) Bert & Ernie from Sesame Street
(c) Charles Barkley
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 41

#20 On October 29th 2002 more than 700 Moscow theatre goers were taken hostage and threatened with execution by:
(a) Royal Canadian Mounted Police
(b) Laurie Dhue of Fox News Channel
(c) Phil Donahue, of MSNBC, pissed because Fox News is kicking his ass
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 41

#21 This Quiz, Humorous While Still Being Factual In Nature Offends Mostly:
(a) Democrats, Who Seek To Impose A Politically Correct Mentality That Will Get Us All Killed
(b) Terrorist Sympathizers
(c) Terrorists Osama Bin Laden, Musab Al-Zarqawi & Their Evil Minions
(d) All Of The Above

Scoring The Quiz

1-5 Answers of "D" - You're a novice on the topic of terrorism, and likely to be killed by an Islamic Terrorist.
6-10 Answers of "D" - You have some knowledge of terrorism, but have lots of studying to do.
11-15 Answers of "D" - You're knowledgeable on the topic of terrorism, but need to brush up on current events.
16-20 Answers of "D" - You're a terrorism expert. It's likely the CIA could use your talents.

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  Sufidreamerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  1. Which country supported the Fascist regime in Greece, responsible for killing political prisoners and creating the Cyprus problem.
  
  a) Luxembourg
  b) Costa Rica
  c) Bulgaria
  d) The USA
  
  2) Which country deposed the democratically elected government of Iran, replacing it with their friend, the Shah. This led to revolution and replacement with Ayatollah Khomeni.
  
  a) South Africa
  b) India
  c) Iceland
  d) The USA
  
  3) Which country supplied Saddam Hussein with weaponry and encouraged him to go to war with Iran, causing the deaths of 1 million young men.
  
  a) Canada
  b) France
  c) Sweden
  d) The USA
  
  4) Which country used CIA operatives to support the Chilean regime of General Pinochet, responsible for the torture and killing of thousands of political prisoners.
  
  a) Algeria
  b) Chad
  c) Thailand
  d) The USA
  
  5) Which country supplied Afghanistan with weapons to fight the Russians, training many of the men who would later go on to form Al Qaeda
  
  a) The Netherlands
  b) Japan
  c) Australia
  d) The USA
  
  6) The people of which country supplied 90% of the funding for the IRA. This was used to buy weapons responsible for killing British soldiers and civilians
  
  a) Libya
  b) Turkey
  c) Argentina
  d) The USA
  
  7) This quiz offends mostly offends
  
  a) People who believe that you can bring peace with bombs.
  b) People who believe that Fox News is a bastion of truth.
  c) People who believe that Atheists are Communists.
  d) All of the above.
  
  I could go on, but the point is made - the USA has blood on its hands. I could also make a similar list for the UK, Germany, Japan, Greece and countless others. Most countries have done some pretty atrocious things during their history. I could just as easily make a list about good things that the USA has done, before anybody accuses me of being anti-American - just making a point.
  
  RueVera - Leave if you want, but I think that you are being over-sensitive. Some people on here disagree with you, others support you. Most people on here try to seek compromise - this is the nature of debate. Mark and Misha, for example, have both stated that they have respect for Israel, but do not agree with the recent action. If you want everybody to agree with you, then you have unreasonable expectations. If that is the case, write a Hub about it - you are in control of your own space.
  
  Once again, I will state my own position, in that a third party, such as the US, should be attempting to facilitate negotiations. It worked in Northern Ireland, so why not in the Middle East? A referendum taken in Ireland showed that 90% of people, on both sides, wanted peace. I suspect that a referendum in Israel/Palestine would give similar results - extremists do not speak for most people.
  
  FYI - I know people within Israel, and most of those want peace too.
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Mishaposted 15 years ago
Why is that - when some people start loosing the fight, they resort to use of sock puppets?
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allshookupposted 15 years ago
Truely Different, I got that email a few weeks ago. I didn't realize all the answers to those questions until I read that.
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ReuVeraposted 15 years ago
Sufidreamer, You didn’t put Russia on your list (BTW, my Motherland). Absolutely fair. There’s no angelic country, as any political government is evil. Games of power are mortal.
I’m sorry if I seemed to be attacking. All what I wanted was to show to people that Israel is not a monster. It’s a victim as well as Gaza. To make it more precise- people of Israel are victims as well as Gaza civilians. With the difference that Israel doesn’t attack, they only self-defend. (It happened once that Israel did not react on bomb shelling, remember when? Spring 1991, Gulf War, Iraq invasion of Kuwait, America employing troops in the region, Iraq shelling scads around Tel-Aviv.)
I do write about Israel in my hubs, but I try not to touch politics. I want to show Israel as a normal country where normal people live and work and celebrate, and laugh, and rejoice.
---------------------------
Truly Different wrote: Which country in the middle east would substitute for Israel as the only reliable ally in the region,
Truly Different, I agree completely. But they don’t want this oasis of progress in that region.
---------------------------
Paraglider, Apologize to what? That I got an impression that people think that the losses are disproportional? Can you make a proportion of how many should be killed to make it look fair? I grieve for lost lives whoever the people are. I also rejoice when the toll of deaths is not as high as it might be.
---------------------------
I said it many times and I can repeat. Arabs have enough of lands to build their own country, Arabs are well educated (many got free education from the Soviet Union), they are laborious, they can harvest their own food, build their own power stations and sewage system. They can start living instead of being marionettes. All these wars are not about their identity but about greed and power.
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  Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  For suggesting that I (and others) would like more Israeli casualties. It was a foul thing to say. Most of us here hate conflict. 'Disproportionate' is the word the UN correctly applied to the Israeli assault that has (so far) resulted in 400+ deaths. They choose their words with care. You should listen to what the UN (and the International community at large) thinks of Israel's recent adventurism.
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  ReuVeraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, but UN is not an authority for honest people. I can’t say better than one wise and sweet lady had said already in her comments- “the UN is a waste of time and money. I've always been against it. They are just trouble. I think it should be disbanned. I don't know of anything they have done that is good or positive. I have seen them take credit for good things that they had no part in and say they did it and people blindly believe them for some odd reason. It's just evil and they have their own agenda”
  
  Also, there’s no way to get out from some other facts-
  . The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs - Of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.
  . Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.
  . The U.N was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.
  . The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.
  . The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.
  .The U.N. held a videotape of abduction of three Israeli soldiers on October 7, 2000 not admitting this for a long time.
  
  Of course, it’s not about UN, but there’s no such thing as “disproportion in death toll” to be held as a banner for comparison. I didn’t blame you in anything. You wrote something that I understood that way and not another. If I misunderstood you, sorry for my misunderstanding.
  
  I am a very peaceful person and hate to argue and can’t do it.
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Truly Differentposted 15 years ago
I myself live in Israel. Right now I’m in US, visiting my relatives. Next Sunday I do back home.

For those of us who believe that the "Israeli Occupation" has been bad for the Palestinian people, these facts may change your perception. The "occupation" seems to have brought nothing but good to the Palestinians - we can only imagine how much worse they would be if Israel hadn't helped them!

1. During 20 years of Arab rule Palestinian male life expectancy grew from 42 to 44. During the next 20 years of Israeli rule Palestinian male life expectancy grew from 44 to 63.
2. During 20 years of Arab rule Palestinian female life expectancy grew from 45 to 46. During the next 20 years of Israeli rule Palestinian female life expectancy grew from 46 to 67.
3. During 20 years of Arab rule Palestinian infant mortality rate decreased from 200 per thousand to 170 per thousand. During the next 20 years of Israeli rule Palestinian infant mortality rate decreased from 170 per thousand to 60 per thousand.
4. During 20 years of Arab rule Palestinian crude death rate decreased from 21 per thousand to 19 per thousand. During next 20 years of Israeli rule Palestinian infant mortality rate decreased from 19 per thousand to 6 per thousand.
5. Before 1967, when Israel's rule began, only 113 hospitals had been built in the territories. By the time of 1989 Israel had helped establish more than three times that number to 387.
6. Before 1967 only 23 Mother & Child Centers had been established. After 1989 about six times as many could be found. (135)
7. Malaria, which had existed in the territories before 1967 was finally eliminated during the Israeli rule.
8. Israel also more than tripled the number of Palestinian teachers and boosted the Palestinian educational system by establishing a number of universities. Among those universities were the College of Scientists (Abu Dis) - est. 1982, the College of Social Welfare (El Bira) - est. 1979, the College of Religion (Beit Hanina) - est. 1978 and the Islamic College in Hebron- est.1971.
9. This was not the only effect Israeli rule had on the Palestinian education system and the Palestinian people. Before 1967 the percentage of illiterates on average had been 27.8% among men and among women even higher at 65.1%. By 1983 Israel had helped reduce illiteracy to only 13.5% among men and 38.9% among women.

Other Facts.
1. Nationhood and Jerusalem - Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.
2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.
3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E. the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.
4. Arabs have only had control of Israel twice - from 634 until the Crusader invasion in June 1099, and from 1292 until the year 1517 when they were dispelled by the Turks in their conquest.
5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.
6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran. There are vague references to Jerusalem in the Hadiths - stories about Mohammed - that he stopped his night journey (which the Koran explains took place in a dream!) at the "farther mosque" (or "distant place"). Muslims explain that this means "at the edge of the Temple mount", although no direct reference to Jerusalem or the Temple Mount is made.
7. King David established the city of Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.
8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Some Muslims (i.e. those between Israel and Saudi Arabia) pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.
9. Arab and Jewish Refugees - In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.
10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.
11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.
12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.
13. The Arab - Israeli Conflict - The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.
14. The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with weapons.
15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.
16. The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs - Of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.
17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.
18. The U.N was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.
19. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.
20. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.
By David G. Littman
October 7, 2002
It's time to look back on 14 fundamental geographical, historical, and diplomatic facts from the last century relating to the Middle East. These basic facts and figures were stressed in recent statements to the U.N. Commission on Human Rights and its subcommission, to the surprise of representatives of both states and non-governmental organizations (NGOs).
1) After World War I Great Britain accepted the 1922 Mandate for Palestine, and then — with League of Nations approval — used its article 25 to create two distinct entities within the Mandate-designated area.
2) The territory lying between the Jordan River and the eastern desert boundary "of that part of Palestine which was known as Trans-Jordan" (nearly 78 percent) thus became the Emirate of Transjordan. This new entity was put under the rule of Emir Abdullah, the eldest son of the Sharif of Mecca, as a recompense for his support in the war against the Turks, and of Ibn Saud's seizure of Arabia (Faisal, Abdullah's brother, later received the even vaster Mandate area of Iraq).
3) Turning a blind eye to article 15, Great Britain also decided that no Jews could reside or buy land in the newly created Emirate. This policy was ratified — after the emirate became a kingdom — by Jordan's law no. 6, sect. 3, on April 3, 1954, and reactivated in law no. 7, sect. 2, on April 1, 1963. It states that any person may become a citizen of Jordan unless he is a Jew. King Hussein made peace with Israel in 1994, but the Judenrein legislation remains valid today.
4) The remaining area west of the Jordan River (comprising about 22 percent of the original Mandate) was then officially designated "Palestine" by Great Britain. As stated in the 1937 Royal Commission Report, "the primary purpose of the Mandate, as expressed in its preamble and its articles, is to promote the establishment of the Jewish National Home." This was now greatly restricted.
5) U.N. General Assembly Resolution 181 (November 29, 1947) authorized a Partition Plan in this area: for an Arab and a Jewish state — and for a corpus separatum for Jerusalem. The plan was rejected by both the Arab League and the Arab-Palestinian leadership. Aided and abetted by the neighboring Arab countries, local armed Arab Palestinian forces immediately began attacking Jews, who counterattacked. On May 15, 1948, the armies of five Arab League states joined these militias in the invasion of Israel, but their armies failed in their goal of eradicating the fledgling state.
6) The armistice boundaries (1949-1967) left Israel with roughly 16.5 percent, or 8,000 sq. miles, of the original 1922 Mandate area (about 48,000 sq. miles), while about five percent — less Gaza, which was occupied by the Egyptians — was conquered and occupied in 1948 by British General Glubb Pasha, the commander of Abdullah's Arab Legion. The historic regions of "Judea and Samaria" — their official names as indicated on all British mandate maps until 1948 — were annexed and became the "West Bank" of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan in 1950. All the Jews were expelled from the area and from the Old City of Jerusalem; their synagogues, and even tombstones on the Mount of Olives, were destroyed.
7) Until King Hussein attacked Israel on June 6, 1967, Jordan's recognized de facto boundaries covered 83 percent of Palestine (78 percent east of the Jordan river, and five percent to the west). Following its military defeat in the Six Day War, the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan lost the "West Bank," which it had illegally annexed 19 years earlier, retaining the huge "Transjordan" portion (78 percent) of the original League of Nations territory.
8) Of Jordan's current population of five million, about two-thirds (over three million) consider themselves "Arab Palestinians." They are the descendants either of the original Arab Palestinian inhabitants of the Trans-Jordan region, or of roughly 550,000 Arab refugees from west Palestine who lost their homes after the Arab League armies failed to eradicate Israel first in 1948, and again in 1967. Nearly two million Jordanian Bedouin citizens and others do not identify themselves as Palestinians.
9) After the 1967 disaster, an Arab League Summit Conference held in Khartoum that November reacted negatively to U.N. Security Council Resolution 247: "No peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with Israel, no concessions on the questions of Palestinian national rights." This was also the determined position of the PLO. Apart from Egypt's 1981 peace treaty with Israel, there was little change, for the next two decades, in this refusal to negotiate according to U.N. Resolution 242.
10) In those "West Bank and Gaza" areas, designated by the Oslo Accords of 1994 to be placed under the administration of the Palestinian Authority (covering about 5.5 percent of the "Greater Palestine" area on both sides of the Jordan), there is now a population of over 3,200,000, of whom about 35,000 are Christians, but none are Jews.
11) The population of the Jewish state — a state envisaged in the 1922 League of Nations Mandate, and confirmed by the U.N.'s 1947 decision — is now roughly 6,500,000, of whom roughly 20 percent are Arabs (120,000 Christians), Druze, and Bedouin citizens of Israel. Of the more than five million Jewish citizens, about one-half are those Jewish refugees from Arab countries, and their descendants, who fled or left their ancient homeland when massacres, arrests, and ostracism made life impossible (a further 300,000 emigrated to Europe and the Americas, where they number over a million).
12) Today, a tiny, vulnerable Jewish remnant — scarcely 5,000 persons — remains in all the Arab world, less than half of one percent from the near million who were there in 1948 (this does not include the 50,000 in Turkey and Iran, left of about 200,000 in 1945). These are the forgotten Jewish refugees from Arab lands, from countries that will soon be totally judenrein just as Jordan has been since 1922.
13) The 22 Arab League countries cover a global surface of over six million square miles, over ten percent of the land surface on earth. Israel, by contrast, covers barely 8,000 sq. miles.
14) Security Council Resolution 242 has now become the panacea for Arab states, yet their interpretation of its key operative paragraph does not correspond to the English original, which version alone is binding. In March 2002, a Saudi "peace plan" was approved by the Arab League in Beirut, but behind it lurks the former 1981 "Fahd Plan" — with a facelift — that would leave Israel with impossible borders. After the Iraqi menace has been resolved one way or another, what is needed for the "Middle East peace process" is a concerted effort to support the Mitchell plan, which could one day lead to true peace and reconciliation for the whole region. But the Palestinian Authority will only become a genuine partner with Israel, alongside Jordan and Egypt, if there is a radical break with the past, and a new spirit of mutual acceptance prevails between the Arab world and Israel — with individual and collective security and dignity for all. This will only be feasible if democratic institutions and a respect for human rights and the rule of law become the norm, as they now are not. And it will only be feasible if the Arab world recognizes the inalienable legitimacy of Israel's existence in a part of its historical land.
— David G. Littman is a historian. Since 1986, he has been active on human-rights issues at the U.N. Commission on Human Rights in Geneva. His recent statements on this subject were made as a representative of the World Union for Progressive Judaism, a nongovernmental organization
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  For sure Paraglider, the mother hen and the Christian zionists in that country are the main reason why these atrocities continue. It's like a rerun of the disproportionate force showed by the IDF in Lebanon a couple of years ago.
  
  Yeah and most of those resolutions were vetoed by the U.S. It's clear the 7 member UN Security Council veto power needs to be dissolved. Why do you think over 3 quarters of the resolutions were directed against Israel? Can you say war crimes and crimes against humanity.
  
  A lot of your "facts" can be disputed. But what's the sense. The bottom line is most of the world does not accept what Israel is doing. In fact if you do a search for Jews against zionism you'll find that most Jews do not either.
  
  Below is part of a comment an Israeli left on that 'SS Liberty' Sails to Challenge Israel blog.
  
  This zionist in the quote above seems to think that the $6.8 million given to Israel each day in 2007 from the American tax payer was a pittance of Foreign Aid. He seems to think Israel would do better without U.S. support.
  
  And so ...
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Sufidreamerposted 15 years ago
Some fair points ReuVera - Nobody is arguing that Israelis do not have the right to live in peace. By stating that we are against the action in Gaza does not mean that we hate Israel. Personally, I hope to visit one day.

The same applies to your point, Truly Different. Your comment is thorough, but you have wasted your time. Nobody here argues against the right of Israel to exist - quite the opposite. The problem is that blame can be thrown backwards and forwards, and nothing changes. I do not know whether the Israelis or Palestinians started it, nor do I care. I did not care who started the problems in Ireland, only that it stopped.

I cannot speak for everybody else, but dragging up history does not help. It does not matter who had the land hundreds of years ago, or whose holy book mentions it most. The only important thing is whether the people living there now can learn to get on with each other. The future is all that matters, and the current state cannot continue. I never thought that I would see the day when Gerry Adams and Ian Paisley shared a table together - it can be done.
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1. 79
  LondonGirlposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You can't possibly settle anything in Israel unless you realise that, in any land dispute, people don't reach for deeds, but rather for a Bible...
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Paragliderposted 15 years ago
Truly Different - Wouldn't it be better to listen to what the Palestinian people want for themselves, rather than setting out to prove they've never had it so good? I agree with SufiDreamer. The only way forward is talks. But as long as the US executive lends unconditional support to Israel and pretends Palestine does not exist, Israel will continue to behave like the schoolyard bully, safe under the wing of mother hen.
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Truly Differentposted 15 years ago
This entire Middle East problem was about heritage rights on the Promised Land and now all of a sudden history doesn’t matter. Then what “Palestinians” are fighting for? They have their piece of land; Israel pulled its troops out of there long ago. Just start living and harvesting and prospering with all the money they have from the other Muslim world. No, it’s not enough, they want it all. They almost got it. Israel was ready to surrender more they could afford, but Arafat maintained a state of permanent warfare in the Middle East, rejecting one peace proposal after another, culminating in his refusal of the Clinton-Barak offer in 2000 which would have given Palestinians a state on 97 percent of the territory they had asked for.
(When Arafat refused to sign a previously negotiated agreement with the Israelis in 1994, Egypt’s President Mubarak, who had given his prestige to that mediation, became so outraged at Arafat’s delay in signing the document that he blurted out to Arafat, “Sign, you son of a dog!”)

Israel does not say that its goal is to eliminate Arab states. It’s Arab leaders say that their goal is to wipe Israel off the map.
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knolyourselfposted 15 years ago
"In the West Bank Palestinians are walled off from their fields, jobs, medical care, education, water, and from one another by endless checkpoints, roads for “Jews only,” walls, barbed wire, and machine gun towers. Palestinians are being evicted from their towns house by house, block by block." Paul Craig Roberts.
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1. 89
  Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Knolyourself - we have ReuVera who believes the United Nations is evil and Truly Different dredging up the past. Neither has any interest in addressing the realities in the region. That's life, sadly.
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