RIYADH, Saudi Arabia (AP) Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah, considered a reformer by the standards of his own ultraconservative kingdom, decreed on Sunday that women will for the first time have the right to vote and run in local elections due in 2015.
It is a "Saudi Spring" of sorts.
For the nation's women, it is a giant leap forward, though they remain unable to serve as Cabinet ministers, drive or travel abroad without permission from a male guardian.
Saudi women bear the brunt of their nation's deeply conservative values, often finding themselves the target of the unwanted attention of the kingdom's intrusive religious police, who enforce a rigid interpretation of Islamic Shariah law on the streets and public places like shopping malls and university campuses.
In itself, Sunday's decision to give the women the right to vote and run in municipal elections may not be enough to satisfy the growing ambition of the kingdom's women who, after years of lavish state spending on education and vocational training, significantly improved their standing but could not secure the same place in society as that of their male compatriots.
http://news.yahoo.com/saudi-women-vote- … 00443.html
they can vote if they can get someone to drive them to the election precinct?
That's exactly what I thought.
Or maybe they can vote by absentee ballot ?
Well - it is an advance step. Lets hope they don't screw that all up in the end by going down the stupid and divisive route that our Feminism took us ?
It's certainly a step in the right direction and on balance, voting or driving, I think voting is the more important.
They can always vote for the person most likely to give the right to drive.
Great start and if they're ever allowed to drive the nations roads may become a lot safer.
Or maybe their society should decide how things should be -
imposing values from one culture onto another is the cause of more misery than the original 'issue'.
The general principle should be to put the things in your own house in order as an example. The western virgin or whore female model is no better.
You think my comment on this forum was intended to interfere with the Saudi's right to to decide such things? Do you think driving with head scarf and veil would be safe. Do you believe women should be allowed to drive?
I believe that Saudi society should decide what Saudi's do or do not do. The way to make change in another society is by example. The western 'example' is generally looked down upon by all 'other' societies, the commodification of woman and its accompanying sexual devaluation is seen as regressive.
Just putting the other side of the debate that those inside rarely get to consider
If you label equality as sexual devaluation you are chauvinistic by definition. Which is perfectly fine for any society that chooses to remain in the dark ages. They should have that right, as long as all citizens within that society agree to allow half the adult population to be treated as lower class or children.
If our western attempts had produced an 'equality' it would be fine, but it didn't. What it produced was a confusion of female domination of other females, constant tension in society as male and female apply unworkeable laws and practices to their own transient advantage - and it changed nothing in the underlying attitude of either sex to the other.
Do not label me because I discuss these issues, I have enough of that rubbish in strident personal attacks on me because I live in China; those fools consider this must make me a commie.
I label your argument as backward and chauvinistic. I do understand how difficult it must be for men to adapt, but don't present a flawed argument that dealing with the equality of the sexes is in any way our problem. It's apparently yours, and other men not ready to learn to deal with the change.
Of course it is a problem for men - they have been the dominant partner for thousands of years in almost every society, only men can 'give' equality to women and if that was happening I would support it enthusiastically, but it is not.
The underlying issue is not mine, it is how the various attempts at equality have created more problems than it has solved. It is how feminism has been used and abused by females.
Well, you are English. I've been to Britain, but I haven't lived there. So, I don't know what you are dealing with. I'm sorry that your country has not been able to resolve this as easily as America. But, I guess I should consider myself lucky to live in a country that has moved past those types of problems.
Although, I don't know how long you've been in China. Maybe the next time you go home you'll find it's all been resolved.
. . . moved past those problems - you have so many problems it has just disappeared into the mess
For a chauvinistic guy who lives in Asia, you might consider the fact that you probably don't have enough information to come to rational conclusions about life in the West. It's a conclusion I came to a while ago, from reading your posts.
For someone who is blinded by pre-conceptions, and apparently unable to read, it does not behove you to make personal attacks.
Any researcher will tell you that the place to see the west is from outside, maybe you should get out a bit.
If you see my comments as personal attacks, you might take your own advice. You could just learn something. Living in China does not automatically give you the ability to stand on the outside and look in. It means you live in China. Allowing personal prejudices to influence opinions and skew your conclusions is not research. It, too, is blindness.
You mean your comments aren't personal attacks!
You could have fooled me.
I'm so sorry that you consider an argument against blind chauvinism a personal attack. I considered it to be an argument against a prejudical view. Luckily, you can report me and call it a day.
Sorry, but I do consider comments such as
"For a chauvinistic guy who lives in Asia, you might consider the fact that you probably don't have enough information to come to rational conclusions about life in the West."
to be a personal attack rather than an argument against a prejudicial view, in fact it smacks strongly of prejudice itself!
I would never think of reporting you, I'm not that petty.
I don't consider it petty (I wouldn't do it either) but, if you don't think the conversation was heated on both sides; I'm at a loss. Of course, maybe you didn't see where I was told that I was unable to read, or that I have so many problems that it has just disappeared into the mess.
But, we all see what we want to, I guess.
But you claimed not to be making a personal attack, that was what I was puzzled by!
If you feel driven to make personal comments then do so, but don't then deny them.
BTW, I agree that your country has so many problems that chauvinism has just disappeared into the mess, pretty much as in the UK.
I only deny it, because he didn't feel it existed on his side of that conversation; he did not consider himself to be attacking me. If he is going to cry foul on one side, not the other; it's unfair. It is across the board one way or the other. You can't have it both ways.
And nice try attempting top turn his statement about me into something different than what was said.
And, no society is perfect. There are problems and successes, depending on where you stand. If you stand in one place and insist that this is indicative of how the entire system should be perceived you will always be wrong. Because, nothing is perfect or completely bad. It's flawed. As are all human interactions. That's life. But, equality for the sexes is the only logical aspiration. We are all adults.
I'm going to chalk that up to one more thing that equates to cultural differences. That type of response is considered insulting to those of us in the States. I'm sure you are not aware of that.
You're absolutely correct, I had no idea that that kind of response would be considered insulting.
I unreservedly apologise for any offence that I may have caused.
BTW are you aware of the vast difference in meaning of fanny across the Atlantic?
It's a word that many in the UK find offensive, I've never known an American not to use it in deference to our finer feelings
You know, I think you might have been trying to insult me with that one, but you did a good job. If you are calling me some variation of the word fanny, I agree. I can be, when presented by that from someone else.
I've read your posts across this forum and I've respected them, so you can call me a fanny. If that's what you're doing. I don't mind a bit.
Maybe I can stop this -
I think have misunderstood comments in the Adam and Eve thread where I am clearly 'taking the p!ss' about women to instigate a good argument with our christian friends about how their bible supports male domination.
Then, when you personally attacked me (as I saw it) I responded that you maybe cannot read - my previous posts. Suggesting that you had read them incorrectly.
Then your claim that I suggested that you personally had problems is another example of how I think you are not reading properly because I said -
". . . moved past those problems - you have so many problems it has just disappeared into the mess " clearly referring to the subject of the previous argument which is mess of problems that western society has.
I do respond sharply to criticism of any position I take that infers that I am somehow chauvinistic or stupid - in the same vein that I am sharp with people who attack me with stupid comments as though I am Chinese because I have a Panda avatar.
I don't think you're chinese, and I knew your comments on the Adam and Eve thread were tongue in cheek. I considered them to be in poor taste; but to each his own.
Your comments on this thread have been, in my opinion chauvinistic. Are you chauvinistic, or are you simply presenting an argument? I admit that I don't know, however, your assessments on feminism are in direct contrast to my experiences and my observations. You clearly admitted you do not live in the West. Your perception is based on what? I don't know. But, by your admission, not by observation.
Living in China does not automatically do anything, nor did I claim that it did.
My background in Critical Thinking and my current job in inter-cultural relationships might help a little.
If you want to challenge anything I say here then please do so, if you give reason and argument I am pleased to engage with you. But if you just do not like what I write and choose to attack me then I will not bother to respond to any more of your posts.
You know, I said I consider the argument to be flawed and chauvinistic. I said I don't know how things are in Britain since I don't live there, so I don't know what drives your argument. It wasn't until you stated
you have so many problems it has just disappeared into the mess
that I responded in kind.
I didn't take what I said as any more of a personal attack than what you said. But, please let's do stop the conversation. You have no desire to look at the issue.
How has feminism been used and abused exactly?
"The western virgin or whore female model is no better." True but they are exceptions not the rule as in the case of Saudi Arabia."
Not so Ralph, the virgin/whore model is the underlying basis of how all women are seen in the west. This basic division is partly responsible for why the feminist movement fails with such acrimony - a dichotomy of reason seeing equality while the subconcious sees total inequality.
That's definitely true. After all, Americans aren't exactly saints to say the least, so I think it's probably best to let other countries solve their own problems, as we have way too many of our own to worry about as it is. Besides, what may seem extreme in one culture may be perfectly acceptable in another. Not saying that I approve of the objectification of women, as I happen to consider them the smarter ones between the two sexes. However, I do think it's best for us to solve our own problems first before we can start dictating to everyone else on what's morally sound in life.
Given the option; I'd certainly grab the right to vote first. It's great that they have taken that step. And good for the Saudi leadership.
I don't think we should expect equal rights for women too quickly throughout the world. Judging by the post of one gentleman on this thread; even western societies still have back woods philosophies by some of their citizens.
Yeah, I think it's useful to remember that women got the right to vote in the US less than 100 years ago. It was not an easy fight, and there are still people around who claim we shouldn't have it.
A lot of European women didn't get it until even later - the 40's for Italy and France, the 70's for Portugal, and thanks to Switzerland's direct democracy model, 1990 for one Swiss canton.
Saudi Arabia is backwards on women's rights, but not by as much of a margin as a lot of people seem to think.
Maybe the king is looking around at his neighboring dictators and figures he better do something cool or he might be next??
Women are still viewed and treated as property in many nations of the world-even in the USA.
Many men are threatened by women having some power over themselves.
and I agree that the King is looking around and maybe getting a bit nervous..
I know, in the UK there used to be such a thing as 'The rule of thumb' Whereby a man was perfectly within his legal rights to hit his wife with an instrument provided it was no wider than his thumb because 'she was his property.' I'm sure it wasn't abolished until the 1950's.
I don't like to be called someone's property as being owned. I am so against this man owns woman thing. I don't think a man has a right to hit his wife for any reason. Marriage is a bond of love, to share, be equal, and caring. I don't like to be looked at as someones property. That makes you feel unwanted. Just a joke here, so a man has a right to sell his property or trade up? haha
Glad things have changed for women in US.
The vote has been promised to Saudi women before......... nothing happened. I'll believe it when I see it.
When Saudi women win the right to bitch at their husbands 24/7 for leaving the toilet seat up, or drinking milk straight from the carton, they will be ready to take their place among the women of the free world.
And how ya coming on that Honey Do list, anyway???
That would be a 'honey do it now !' list for Ron
I thought she meant "honeydew". I screw everything up...
At least you admit it.
Saudi Men, take note: Here is a prime example of a well trained Western man.
He may not know his melons,but he knows his place!
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