It is crucial that hispanics not vote in florida primary,so as to show the republican establishment who are already worried about it ,that with the current position on immigration the hispanic vote will go 90 percent democrat.
Well I'm hispanic, though I consider myself an American and I voted last Monday for a Republican. I came into USA 50 years ago with my visa entry through Mexico. The problem people are having is the way they came into the country and I think you know what I mean!
From what I understand, this is the first republican primary, meaning that only registered republicans will be allowed to vote--no democrats, decline to state, independent, etc. So, anybody who is a registered republican will be voting, regardless of race. It has nothing to do with race, it has to do with party.
You are absolutely righ! In Florida, only those registered GOP are able to vote in a primary eleccion. By the way there are many "hispanics" US citenzes and a great majory are Republican. And do you know the reason? 1961 Bay of Pigs Invasion which was aborted because a "DEMOCRATIC" president didn't send the support that was promise and consequently the invasion failed. Reason why I don't vote for any democratic candidate running for office. One more thing the majority of these liberals want to see US going down the drain as Nation!
i'm sorry but i must correct you most hispanic registered voters are registered democrats and in national election hispanics voted about 55 % democrat and 45% republican in the bush years because he did not attack the hispanic community like in the present time the reps are attacking it and in the 2008 election it was about 65% for democrats and 35 for reps.believe me in 2012 the reps won't get more than 25% of the hispanic vote.now if you are talking strictly about florida then you are correct because the majority of hispanic voters in the state of florida are of cuban descent and they are in an overwhelming majority republican voters, but that is not the case nationally.
Thank you mio cid and I agree with you, I was think about Florida! I have that tendency!. One more comment: In my opinion: It's a pity that the hispanic community have that tendency, voting for the democrats and no taking into consideration that must of us are here running away from lefty tendency goverments and probably no knowing that our Democartic party is full of the so called 'Liberals'. Liberals, they called themselves because they know any other terms like for instance, socialists, will scare many people.
I am not Hispanic, but I do live in Florida. To encourage a group of people not to vote is senseless. If they're registered voters, they have every right to vote for the candidate of their choice.. although character is sorely lacking in the GOP candidates.
I'm not sure voting for one candidate because he 'says' nicer things about a group of people means anything - it's politics.
We all know how they get elected anyway, whoever has the most money.
Talk to your neighbors,friends, and familyand explain to them it's imperative they not vote in the republican florida primary, and if they must at least vote for gingrich who at least has a little consideration towards us.
You know something I recently read about him?(Gingrich)
Back during the apartheid period in S Africa, Reagan and the Iron Lady were staunchly refusing to do anything about it, until "one member of the United States gvt took a stand against apartheid" and it started the ball rolling on ending it.
That member was Newt Gingrich!
Of course, now he says Palestinians are an invented people, so he's back to being full of it. But he, at least can be human at times.
Those other R's are all empty suits, pretending to be real people
And Romney's father was born in Mexico...good thing he wasn't president when his dad wanted in!
Are you worried about Americans of hispanic heritage or about the hordes of illegal aliens that have invaded our country and ignore our laws?
Foreign nationalities that are not American citizens cannot vote (legally); there is no real need to exhort them to stay out of the polls.
All Americans have the right (and duty) to participate in elections; to try and convince them not to do so is just wrong.
I doubt that any politician worth his(her) salt is racist enough to side with anyone because of their race, and if they are they surely won't let it be known. To declare that Gingrich "sides with us" ("us" meaning the hispanic race) is not only rather silly but, if the inference is true, would be a major reason NOT to vote for him (or any other admitted racist).
Hispanics is not a race ,You apparently are so ignorant that whenever you hear hispanic you immediatelly bring up mexico,you must be one of these people that think north and east of the mason dixon is puerto rican south and west is mexican, when I say us I mean us the hispanics and the immigrants.the two groups of people being targeted by the right wing nut, xenophobe,bigoted and racist crowd.
Well, apparently one of us is ignorant.
From the Mirriam-webstar dictionary:
Definition of HISPANIC
: of or relating to the people, speech, or culture of Spain or of Spain and Portugal
: of, relating to, or being a person of Latin American descent living in the United States; especially : one of Cuban, Mexican, or Puerto Rican origin
"A person of Latin American descent". Not necessarily Mexican - you are the one introducing that nationality, not I. I merely indicated a "Hispanic heritage", not a Mexican one.
And from their medical dictionary:
Definition of RACE
a : an actually or potentially interbreeding group within a species; also : a taxonomic category (as a subspecies) representing such a group b : breed
: a category of humankind that shares certain distinctive physical traits
Are you implying that Hispanics do not share certain distinctive physical traits? Just as orientals, blacks or caucasians do?
You say you mean Hispanics (people of Latin American descent) and immigrants. The first would indicate people whose ancestors are from Latin America (not just Mexico) and second denotes those people that have chosen to become citizens of the US (not merely those squatters that have taken up residence without actually immigrating).
Neither group is being targeted by "right wing nuts, xenophobes, bigots or racists" to any significant degree. The illegal aliens inhabiting our country in violation of US law are being targeted by those paying to support them and want our laws to apply to everyone and not just caucasians, orientals, blacks or any other race except Hispanic.
hispanics is not a race,it's a cultural identity has nothing to do with race there are hispanics of every different race .you brought up mexico when you said if you go into mexico etc...
I see. So we have black and oriental Hispanics with black and oriental features and physical characteristics instead of those normally associated with the Hispanic race. People that have absolutely no connection to Latin America.
I suppose that Mexican citizens that don't celebrate Cinco de Mayo (that minor battle that few remember except the Hispanics in the US) aren't Hispanic because they are not part of that culture?
When the available check boxes are white, black, asian and hispanic do you check the one for "cultural bias" or "race"? Or do you choose two of them to indicate a white hispanic?
It must be nice to make your own definitions of words instead of checking a dictionary. Particularly when you can proclaim that others that haven't heard or understand your personal definition are then ignorant.
Yes, I mentioned Mexico - in direct response to someone else that had also mentioned the country and the possibility of living there.
Coming from a half Hispanic fmily (Argentine) Ican tell you that no Hispanics don't just live in Mexico Puerto Rico and Cuba that they are all through North Central and SOuth America and that they are indeed a race, being born of spanish ancestry often times mixed with the native Inca or Aztec.
A voice of reason speaks from out of the blue - thank you!
Who would have thought - a race of people including some not from Mexico that call themselves "Hispanic". Just don't tell the OP - he defines the term to mean people of a certain undefined culture such as those celebrating Cinco de Mayo. Or maybe those bringing drugs across the Rio Grande - I'm not sure.
HAHA something like that Furthermore I really don't care what the republicans think about illegals it wont change anything.
sure it will change something, democrats had little over fifty percent of hispanic vote in the bush years went up to 64 percent in last election and will probably be about 75 percent in 2012, this is huge.
Does this mean we should expect another 10 million illegals feeding at the American trough of charity and freebies?
no what it means is that
no what it means is that african americans vote 95 percent democrat,hispanics are heading in that direction, as well as almost every minority in the country, which means it's a mathematical reality that within a few more election cycles the republican party won't be able to win an election,
Well, when the repubs nominate a black man (or woman) you will probably find 95% of blacks then voting republican. The sorry nature of the American voter almost guarantees it.
Just as you would find 95% of women voting for a woman and 95% of Hispanics voting for an Hispanic nominee.
Doesn't much matter to me, though - I dislike both parties almost equally.
no they won't, have you heard of herman cain? he had no support from african american voters, you will not erase with one nomination years of trashing the african american community just like you won't get any hispanic votes after years of trashing us, you have no idea how much of a bigot and a xenophobe you sound to our ears.
Forgive me, I'm not sure I understand you correctly. Are you upset about Hispanic citizens being generally treated unfairly by the Republican agenda?
Unfortunately, too many Americans are totally ignorant about how immigration is affecting the US economy and this is apparent by the number of slanderous tirades against foreigners working in the USA. Economists, after considering all aspects, agree both legal and illegal immigrants produce a slight, yet positive, net gain of about one tenth of 1 percent in the gross domestic product. The most significant benefits come from lower labor costs and that results in lower prices for ALL of us American consumers. We all save money every day purchasing hundreds of items from produce and food products to new homes. The nation's GDP gets a boost when visiting workers replace the growing number of retired seniors. Moreover, the contributions from today's expanded work force make it easier for Social Security to pay benefits to future retirees. Thousands of undocumented aliens contribute to Social Security and pay income taxes through regular payroll deductions and the federal government reports most get very little in return. Billions deposited into the Social Security Trust Fund go unclaimed. While undocumented workers contribute to FICA and accumulate credits for retirement, they must be "legal" to claim benefits.
The reality is simple and straightforward. Immigrant workers, whether they are documented or not, produce a slight, yet positive, increase for the economy and a fair measure of benefits to retail and service consumers. This conversation needs to include a hint of gratitude.
Thanks for that Quill. The only thing that I'd like to add, is that if the hispanics, or indeed any minority group abstains from voting. They will only serve the groups that didn't ever want to allow them the power of the vote in the first place. It's there vote. No one has the right to tell them not to use it.
you're 100 percent correct i guess i got caught up in the argument and failed to mention how gratefull i am to this country that i love that i consider my country since i've lived here since 1972 when i came here at 10 years old,and one of the happiest moments of my life was when in the year 2004 i was able to become a citizen.I'm passionate about this issue though because I know the other side of the story that most people don't know,and now that i'm a citizen i feel the moral obligation of standing up for those without a voice.
I have little doubt that there is an increase in the GDP from the masses of illegal aliens working here. It is not, however, as beneficial as you would indicate.
The illegal that visits the hospital doesn't pay for the visit, but others do. This increases gross income to the hospital, and the GDP, but at a cost that you are not considering. The same holds for the food stamps given out from forged ID cards and the grocery stores. Ditto for the labor to repair the car they ran into without insurance. Ditto again for the schooling their children receive and the WIC they get. All raise the GDP, but not from any efforts from the illegal - it all comes from American workers in the long run.
Prices may go down, but very little. The large majority of gains from lower labor costs go into the pockets of the employer. Plus, you forget to add in the costs of supporting a now unemployed American worker that can't find a job because the illegals have agreed to work for less than an American without charity can survive on.
Illegals are indeed taking the place in the workforce as older Americans retire, but that leaves the new young Americans coming of age without work. I don't see that as a positive for the country.
The only illegals paying SS and income tax are those that have forged documents indicating they are citizens. Often through ID theft - I also don't see that as a positive.
The reality is straightforward and simple; illegal aliens working in the country are costing this country massive amounts of money. The very small lowering of prices as scumbag employers hire them is paid for many times over by the costs that illegals impose on the general population but that no one wants to talk about.
Anyone that thinks that an illegal framer helping to build a house, that is earning $6 an hour from an employer that doesn't pay FICA, unemployment or workmans compensation costs, that has a family of 6 or more in our schools and drives around without insurance or license is supporting his family on that $6 has their head in the sand.
If his entire wage was confiscated it wouldn't pay for the schooling, let alone the free medical care, food to eat, a roof over their heads and the higher insurance costs we all pay to cover us for uninsured drivers. It won't pay for the incarceration costs the overall average illegal runs up and it won't cover the costs of transporting back to his home country. It won't pay for the economic damage caused when his 3 siblings and their families all move into his house in your neighborhood and it won't pay for the extra police patrols required from a larger population.
Pull your head up, Quilligrapher, and consider all the costs as well as all the benefits (and there are some, particularly for the rich that hire them). Don't swallow the lie that illegals don't get food stamps; go down and watch as they sign up and are accepted. Watch at the free clinics (that someone pays for) and the hospital ER as they come in droves. Go to a construction job site and watch what happens when the INS shows up on site. Ask the illegal framer what he's earning, compare it to the prevailing wage in the area, and take a hard look at how much the owner of the new home will actually save if compared to an American crew. Do some homework - you'll be amazed and dismayed.
Hi again, Wilderness. My thanks for your lengthy and considered reply. I am convinced that you really believe what you feel. However, my post is based upon my research for facts (see references below) and all the rants of demagogues that I read are long on racist generalizations and short on verifiable data. For every hypothetical and anecdote posted, I can make up three that contradict it.
Many of your statements relate to an unfair distribution of the benefits between the Federal and local governments. It is a fact that the U.S. Treasury and Social Security both enjoy a huge surplus and leave state and local governments on their own to fund their overwhelmed regional services. It is also a fact that on the local and state level immigrants also contribute through property and sales taxes, however, contrary to the federal windfall, they tend to absorb far more in services, benefits, and assistance. Foreign workers did not create the system nor are they responsible for the inequities within it. Nowhere within your comments did I read constructive ideas about redistribution of the benefits to reduce the disproportionate burden carried by some localities because the debate needs to acknowledge this as the major issue. Immigrants pay taxes, consume products, and yearn for a better life. It is hard to find praise for the visiting workers who perform real tasks for pay they deem to be fair but Americans consider, to a large degree, an unacceptable wage. The Federal government and our senior citizens reap huge benefits from a sizable work force known to typically claim far less than what is deducted from their pay.
Your reply offers no verifiable data for any of your claims. Quantity is not a sign of quality. Nearly every sentence contains an assumption that is not, or can not be, proven. Please show us your references and allow us to examine your sources for the following claims:
1. “The illegal that visits the hospital doesn't pay for the visit.”
2. “the food stamps given out from forged ID cards”
3. “The only illegals paying SS and income tax are those that have forged documents”
4. “illegal aliens working in the country are costing this country massive amounts of money.”
5. “the incarceration costs the overall average illegal runs up.”
Since I have searched for this information, I already know what you will find. Even the data classified by Latino or Hispanic does not include subsets of documented and undocumented.
Here are some other comments to consider. First, I “Don't swallow the lie that illegals don't get food stamps” as you imply. I only request if you wish to claim this is a significant issue then provide data to support that this is overwhelmingly the case. I would also be grateful to you for doing the same for every other unsupported claim in your post. Random anecdotes only support racism, not reason.
Secondly, I am not surprised that immigrants fill “free clinics” in areas heavily populated by immigrants. Why are you? I wish there were a few free clinics in my area.
Finally, blame for taking jobs away from Americans needs to yield to the reality of prevailing conditions. The legions of unemployed workers in this country are said to be somewhere between 8% and 23% of the available work force. These unfortunate Americans are not farm workers, food processors, landscapers, or low skilled workers. They are factory workers, autoworkers, secretaries, and sales clerks.
While some may listen to stories about workers fleeing when an INS agent appears and conclude they are undocumented immigrants, others will hear the same tale and imagine a stampede of dead-beat dads with outstanding warrants. In the absence of hard data, it comes down to what you are willing to believe, does it not?
2. Kenneth Scheve and Matthew Slaughter, Globalization and Perceptions of American Workers (Peterson Institute, 2001)
4. http://www.pewhispanic.org/2009/04/14/a … ed-states/
5. Douglas S. Massey and Magaly Sanchez R., Brokered Boundaries, (Russell Sage Foundation, June 2010).
My "data" comes solely from personal observation (both my own and trusted others) and reason. For instance, an illegal without documentation cannot be paying FICA taxes through payroll deductions as there is no SS# to credit it to.
Like you, I have been unable to find hardly any hard facts about the costs of illegals - there just aren't any. This is where reason comes in, always coupled with observation. You request documentation that illegals don't pay hospital bills, for instance, knowing full well that such documentation is not available. Hospitals don't ask for citizenship papers and cannot determine whether a patient is here legally or not - to request hard data is silly and an obvious attempt to discredit the idea. If, however, illegals are paying their hospital bills I would have to ask where the money is coming from - very, very few earn enough to make any payments at all. In addition, we find ER's and complete hospitals closing in areas with a high illegal population because of lack of funds - why is that? Just like the poor American citizen, illegals must use a hospital ER for all care because private practices (the "doc in a boxes" won't take them because they can't pay), or do you request documentation for that too?
Again, I cannot document the cost of schooling illegals (no school will ask for citizenship papers), but do think there is no cost there? Why do you demand documentation of the cost, knowing it is unavailable but that someone pays it?
No hard data is available concerning illegals and forged ID cards, but if you search you will find that many, many cities are finding that places selling them are readily available AND that illegals are buying them. To produce the hard data would, of course, mean that the city knows how many were made, how many were sold, and where the buyers are - not possible as you well know. But you DO know, just as I do, that they are out there in large numbers. Why then do you attempt to hide it by requiring hard data to prove as if the lack of data shows it isn't happening?
Food stamps: In my area there is (of course) no data - no govt worker is going to document stating that he/she is requesting citizenship proof in violation of policy and then knowingly giving food stamps to illegals. If you want evidence you will have to physically collect it yourself by visiting the location and observing. Ignoring the so obvious ploy and cry of racism, when you watch and find that 95% of the Hispanics (in my area - others are likely a different group) cannot speak English and require a translator it is obvious that many are illegals. Not all, certainly, but a high percentage. No data again, but I don't believe that you will find such a huge percentage of any race or group of American citizens that can't speak the language.
Finally, you attempt to claim that illegals hold only low skilled jobs. This is simply not true - they have invaded the construction industry in massive numbers. This is the field I work in every day, and for me I don't need internet data - I see it every day. I have not seen a single job site in over a decade now without at least one entire crew that cannot speak English and is of a common race. I have seen several such crews scatter when INS shows up (neither you nor I believe they are all deadbeat dads - don't even try that silly ploy) and some don't come back. These are skilled workers in a variety of jobs, not just landscapers with a shovel.
As I said before, you can hide your head in the sand, require hard documentation you know doesn't exist anywhere, and make excuses all you want, but the problem of illegal aliens inhabiting our country won't go away from it and hiding won't decrease the huge costs.
Finally, race has nothing to do with it - I'm sick of hearing "Racist!" being applied to anyone talking about citizenship vs illegal aliens. Not immigrants; illegal aliens. Because our current largest problem is with Hispanics does not mean that the person discussing the matter is racist; it means the problem is primarily (but not entirely) with illegals from Mexico. The whole racist thing can only be a red herring to distract, nothing more.
Good Evening, Wilderness. I am grateful to you for sharing your views and opinions. I truly believe there is plenty to learn in this forum. I have no desire to change minds or opinions and I respect your ability to decide what you want to believe for yourself.
I know faulty assumptions, unreliable facts, or illogical thinking can lead to flawed conclusions. It is the reason I listen to anyone who might improve the assumptions, facts, and logic that I use to shape my opinions. You know what “they” say, “garbage in, garbage out.” Please understand that I intend no malice when I point out some of the weaknesses I see in the assumptions, facts, and logic that led you to your conclusions.
This assumption is false. To obtain employment and pay FICA taxes through payroll deductions, a worker needs only to provide the employer with a number. “An April  study by the Institute for Taxation and Economic Policy found that undocumented immigrants paid $11.2 billion in taxes in 2010. It estimated that nearly half of all illegal immigrants pay income taxes.” (1)
Therefore, you are not sure if the total cost is a thousand dollars a year, a million, or a billion. More? Less? You really do not know what the amount is but, in your opinion, it is a “massive” amount. You begin with an assumption and end by showing how it is flawed. If the hospitals do not know how many non-payers are immigrants, there is no way for you to know either. Now I think you are beginning to see my point.This is an imaginary assumption. You admit you do not know how many immigrants use forged ID cards but you insist the numbers you do not know are “large numbers.” Why say I am attempting to hide facts when you claim this is a large problem, I ask you why you think this is a large problem, and you reply you do not know how large a problem it really is? “Racist” is an appropriate term for a person who irrationally associates traits, characteristics, actions or attitudes to a race or nationality. The best way I know to eliminate the word from discussions about citizenship vs. illegal aliens is to remove the irrational element and limit the dialog to verifiable and accurate facts.
Sound reasoning says: if opinions about the burdens, or benefits, or statuses, or attitudes of the entire immigrant population are not supported by reliable facts then they must be based on assumptions that may not be true. I am amazed that anyone would expect others to believe claims they themselves are not sure are true.
Americans with the intellectual stamina to seek the truth know that the data indicates some regions are having major problems providing services for visiting workers because both the burdens and the benefits they create are not fairly distributed between the federal and local governments. This is not a problem caused by immigrants. It is a problem cause by the American system in place before they arrived. While consumers welcome lower prices, the U.S. Treasury and the Social Security Trust Fund reap billions of dollars from workers who know they will never receive retirement benefits unless they become “legal.” The Seattle Times reported on Dec. 28, 2011, “That means about $11.2 billion went into the Social Security Trust Fund in 2007, and $2.6 billion went into Medicare. While that money will be used to pay retirees and health-care beneficiaries, it most likely will never be claimed by the illegal immigrants who contributed it.”
Again, Wilderness, I appreciate your having made the time to share your opinions. I am truly grateful.
(1) http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Articles/ … aspx#page1
(2) http://www.ehow.co.uk/about_7232554_con … ption.html
(3) http://newamerica.net/publications/poli … skill_jobs
(4) http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/n … xes29.html
I believe you're both right (and therefore both wrong). There are the minor benefits to the GDP but what about the sacrifice of farm workers suffering from pesticide residue diseases? There is the replacement of a workforce soon to retire but what about those not retiring?
I believe many 'statistics' are somehow skewed by lack of correct information. American workers in the agricultural, landscaping and construction industries at all levels are suffering because they cannot compete down in price and people are reluctant to view competition that prices up in value. It's like mom and pop competing with WalMart. WalMart prices something at $1.25 because they work in volume. Mom and Pop sell a similar item with a much higher quality construction for $4.95 and they make very little profit but consumers go to WalMart.
The proliferation of landscapers without pesticide licenses is rampant and even companies such as Verizon hire them locally. Roofers who do quality work and pay employees a mere $12. hrly get outbid by contractors with illegal crews who get paid less.
Conversly, agribusinesses hire temporary workers who literally have no rights and no recourse when it comes to their health.
Very well gentlemen! There is one thing I haven't see [posted around here. The fact is that if you vote it is simply because your are a US citizen and if you have gone through this process , you are no suppose nothing else but a US citizen, or like people call us "Americans". That's why when soemone ask me:" Where are you from?" I answer:" I used to be from Cuba, now I'm from United States of North America!"
I want to cross the border into Mexico without proper documentation, pop out a couple baby's and demand healthcare, education and the protection of Mexico's laws! Why can't I do that?
Ahem, all political joking aside, I do support immigration to the US. Preferably the legal kind.
Sorry, Shanna, you can't do that because Mexico will demand that you follow their laws when visiting or occupying their country. Should you violate those laws you will be jailed and deported.
Only the US, as far as I know, encourages foreign citizens to violate our laws and requirements by offering jobs and free food, education, medical care and even housing all on someone else's dime. Strangely enough, other countries insist that their laws be followed.
If I'm reading the OP correctly, he is encourage all hispanics to support Gingrich because, he says, Gingrich will continue to refuse to enforce US laws concerning illegal alien squatters. Apparently all legally voting Americans of Hispanic descent are also contemptuous of the laws and do not wish to enforce them (at least on other Hispanics).
Shanna - don't laugh. The reason you can't do that is because Mexico has laws which, believe it or not, are strictly enforced. You cannot own land worth more than a certain amount or in certain areas. You must enter the country with a minimum of money set by the law. Those are just two but there is an long list of entry requirements to Mexico. They don't worry about minorities or political correctness.
I doubt those statistics, although I'm sure there are some who believe that way, but my belief is that if they are registered Republican they should vote. There are several different candidates there, so they should do what I'm going to do and choose the one that most closely matches their beliefs. Not voting just takes away their voice, in my opinion. I know several immigrants who came here legally who want border patrol as well. However, I do not live in Florida, so perhaps immigrants down there feel differently.
Not all hispanics are illegal aliens...Some are citizens. Many were born here. Peurto Rico is hispanic. St. Auggie was built by Spain...Oldest city in the U.S. Have a nice day!
Let me get this wrapped around my consciousness. We have technology that can pick a wanted terrorist out of a crowd, retinal checks and local banks won't cash some checks without a fingerprint...and we really can't tell if someone has a legal right to elect public officials? Who is kidding whom?
Although there is no way to know for sure, I would suspect your are right. Estimates, for what little they are worth, are that there are 10 million illegal aliens (all races) in the country, and I would be very surprised if there are not at least 10 million Hispanic Americans. That is, Hispanics that are American citizens, whether born here or not.
the hispanic population in the us has reached 50 million, almost 17 percent of the population,the largest minority in the country and whereas in the past many hispanics used to not become citizens, because of the animosity we feel towards us in the last decade we are becoming citizens as soon as we are eligible,that means we are voting in record numbers election after election,the republican party will cease to be a viable party if both the african american vote and the hispanic vote are 90 percent democrat.
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