Is there any reason other than...the other choice is Hell? I have no desire whatsoever to go to such a place that is described in the Bible as Heaven. To me it is just the lesser of two evils. I couldn't imagine worshiping some master everyday for eternity. That's perpetual slavery...to a master who did all those unjust merciless things depicted in the Bible. How Grim. I could never feel comfortable. Why do people convince themselves that they really want to go to such a monstrous place?
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I like your answer, short and right on the money.
Really, Are we talking about the same God who had to drown all of His children because of His bumbling errors? How does that fit with your assertions? If He couldn't get this world right, why should I have any confidence in Him in the next world?
Getitrite, you really have some strong ideas about the Bible that miss the mark by several parsecs! The Flood was an act of Love, because His children are made in His image. (Hint: And He is not Homo sapiens.) Need another hint?
Hint? NO! What I need is some truth. But that seems just too difficult to attain when asking these questions.
Your answer reminds me of this hippie song:
lonestar, that is all opinion, based on nothing but dubious words, written in a book that has not been proven to be relevant in reality at all...no matter what kind of twist you put on it, or how strongly you want to believe it...sorry
My sentiments exactly!
Jack, so where are you getting your information? Mine came from the Bible. All of these answers just seem to be mere evasive maneuvers, trying desperately to spin evil into good. splendid display of kill & discredit the messenger. Brutal deni
Let's be frank, get. U are not "getting your info" from the Bible. U had preconceived bias and then went looking for them to be fulfilled. If you've actually read the Bible then U have the info you need. The onus is on you... not me to spoonfeed U.
If get is to be believed on another post, he was raised Pentecostal if I remember correctly.
Wouldn't that be funny
Jack, you have no information about my knowledge. Hence, you cant honestly assert that I have not gotten my information from the source that I have cited(the Bible)
It seems that the real reason you slander is because you disagree with honesty.
You didn't get your concept of "master" as you believe it to be "out of the Bible" since it doesn't appear in there as such. That comes from your fevered imagination...
Yes, people can attempt to make the Bible say what ever they want it to say, the same as some people can declare that black is white and wrong is right. That doesn't take away from the intrinsic truth of what the Bible DOES say. Again, your choice.
So...ignore the bad, follow the good, yet still insist the Bible is wholly good.
Cherry picking in a nutshell. The first 2 wouldn't be much of a problem without the third.
Jack, it is apparent that people can make the Bible say anything that they want it to say, as long as it fits at least loosely into the indoctrinated directive...a directive that compels you, even against your own logic to believe that this is 478AD.
the Bible is a history book with people behaving both good and bad. No one I know "ignores" the bad. But it is your choice. eh. No one is going to make it for you... or answer for your choice. We stand in judgement for ourselves and our decisions.
Some believers like to keep talking about CHOICE. Ironically, believers don't make their own choices in the matter of faith, but allow others to make their choices for them. They submit to the indoctrinated stimuli from the herd. That's not a choice
well, we are down now to the best that get can do.
Manatita, Did you ever think that I'm just looking for answers to see what kinds of fallacies will be used to justify a desire to go to Heaven. I need input from people, to see if anyone has any logical answers. Everyone wants to change the question.
You do make a good point, if there is no God, no afterlife and this life is all there is there is no meaning to life, everyone's life is simply a culmination of chemical reactions that started millions of years ago (totally by chance) leaving a void.
linfcor, but you are missing the point. I never said that there was no Heaven. Just that the Heaven depicted in the Bible is a horrible choice, especially if its the ONLY other choice. Now I realize that I am only choosing Heaven just to avoid Hell.
So then if you are saying assuming heaven and hell are real as described in the Bible why would you want to go there? That's a no brainer. But you go beyond that "I couldn't imagine worshiping some master everyday for eternity." you hate God.
It is not possible to hate God, as there have never been any gods known to exist outside of the imagination. I do however hate the character invented by ancient ignorant savage goat herders. Of course that vile character is not a god at all.
How can you claim heaven might exist but God doesn't - you are not coherent.
getitrite....... How can you possibly know that their were goat herders 2000 years ago? Have you met one or do you just believe that an ancient book that says so is true? You have "faith" in what you have been taught about goat herders? But not Jesu
I f I remember correctly the eyewitnesses to Jesus and most recent "inventors" of God's descriptions were not shepherds at all but fishermen, a taxcollector, a tentmaker, maybe a noble. No shepherds mentioned there, Coherent? NOT!
Ignorant goat herders, fishermen, whatever. With all the plagiarism that went into producing the current Bible, it is way more likely that this is NOT the dictations from the mind of an omniscient being, but from ignorant humans pulling a scam.
GIR,these rants you express have been proven wrong by so many so often(by modern intelligent, educated people) I am surprised you cling to them actually making you look like THE ONLY ignorant one. Really man, give up your hate and do some research.
tsad, it is amazing that the same HIGH standards that you are using to insult my intelligence, are the same ones that you refuse to employ when seeking truth about the existence of your God. Just show proof of your God, then you won't have to insult.
tsad, Bullies think they can go around insulting anyone they want. What an evil, vicious immature mindset. But some people are not going to be intimidated by you. I despise bullies, therefore, you are not to post anything else here. And get some help
getirite..... you said you were not deleting answers? How is it that you could comment twice in a row then??
Are you calling me a liar JT? Is it because I am an atheist and disagree with you, or is there some other reason that you have decided to doubt my integrity? I am willing to take a lie detector, because I know this is abject bias, on your part.
Just an observation. After one comments, they cannot comment again until someone else does.
You actually can comment twice in a row by using a certain trick. I did it twice, at least on my phone. I figure its something not to do very often though.
@linfcor: "...If there is no heaven or hell, then there is a void when your life is over. I certainly would hate to believe that as reality...." so you build up your concept of god to suit your desires? Obviously!
I can understand having that view, but at least Heaven should be a place that one should really want to go to. I think if there was a real reason that people REALLY wanted to go to the biblical Heaven, there would be no need for the threat of Hell.
All life is secial, human as well as animals. The origin of life is a mystery, the purose of life is what we choose, and where we will go no one can say for certain. There is no need to have a miserable concept if you choose the right path.
It's strange how people build up a picture of the "god" they want to spend eternity with, but that picture is of one that's anything but the person you would want to know. Absolute illogical nonsense.
Lets See...you said, " We may not have memories of this life"
Isn't that about the same as being DEAD?
I do not think so, a person with amnesia is not dead, they may be creeed out at first, but eventually they will build new memories, hopefully better ones. I do not want memories of this world when I am gone. I only want bliss. :)
This"answer"demonstrates just how evil you are.Jt knew you deleted my comment.so by your own words "I have never deleted a comment or answer...EVER! If I had, I would admit to it."I would admit it?"integrity?You don't know the meaning of the word
tsad, I hope that is your last personal attack. One more and I will report this to Hubpages Staff. I am no longer amused with these hateful juvenile attacks! Civilized men know the benefits of impulse control. Let It Go!
I am more than happy distancing myself from this evil rhetoric that you are spewing getirrite. As far as "personal attacks" you are the one guilty of this. All that one can do is pray for you. If you want the debate to stop, close the question.
JT, Debate? Don't make me laugh! Name calling and making false accusations does not make for a debate.That's what happens when you hafta think about your illogical beliefs. You become TERRIFIED, and resort to attacking the messenger. Utterly ABSURD
I do not believe I have called you any names whatsoever. YOU are the angry one calling my God names and this is very offensive. Why can't you just let it go? You have made your point clear that you choose not to go to Heaven. Just let it go. Can you?
How is calling your God names a personal attack on you? This is just an imaginary character in an ancient book. I can attack this character all I want. You, on the other hand, have made direct personal attacks against me...a real person.
About what?? Deleting comments? Or should we say letting HP do it for you when the question is awaiting moderation if it is considered by you as spam? A spade is a spade! Get over it. Let it go. Or is your conscience bothering you?
JT, what you are doing is profiling me.If a fellow believer had done the same thing that I did, you would immediately give him the benefit of the doubt, however your prejudice prompt you to hold me in unreasonable contempt. Some police do likewise
Okay. Whatever you say.
Great article. I think most people's desire to go to Heaven..especially the Christian version...stems from a fear of Hell, and an irrational fear that death is final.
It certainly does. Heaven is manufactured as a fear inducing premise. The inculcation induces fear in the masses to lead a very fear based, half life. Well, THAT'S a subject of another hub.
SirDent, But it seems that the God of the OT is not capable of such a task. Look at all the bumbling mistakes He made with His earthly creation. Having to destroy most of the population, ultimately ending in the torture & murder of His own son.
JT. What do you mean, "nothing to worry about "...? Did you forget about Hell? But could you tell me the reasons why I would actually WANT to go to Heaven, if there was no threat of going to Hell?
I meant you have nothing to worry about as far as going to Heaven. But, as you have mentioned; not I. There are other circumstances for not believing.
Why are these other circumstances tacked on? Why shouldn't Heaven just be a place that people would just want to go to, WITH NO THREATS ATTACHED? How would someone with no desire for an afterlife feel about Heaven if there was no threat of Hell?
My question is why would "anyone" not want to go to Heaven? Is there not people that you would like to see again? As far as the other choice you brought up; why would "anyone" choose to suffer for "ETERNITY?"
Why is eternal suffering even an option?
Sorry Link..... I choose not to interact with you.
Yeah there are people I would like to see again, but unfortunately they will not be in Heaven. Some of my closest family members and dearest friends don't believe in deities at all. It would be miserable knowing they are suffering for all eternity.
Indeed it would getitrite.
JT, In other words, you have no answer to this brutal injustice...and just choose to accept it, because you fear that you have to agree with a mad man dictator who's gleaning your every thought. Of course, might makes right.
Ahh, legitimate question gets ignored again. Cool beans.
Well, hopefully you can keep to it this time, since the last time you said that it didn't last more than 5 minutes. Nice talking with you JT.
getitrite.. let me ask you a question; where did the Sun come from? What about the moon and the stars? And do not give me gibberish about the "big bang theory" for it is just that a "theory!"
JT, the Big Bang could possibly be all wrong. I can accept that...though it still has a semblance of plausibility.
There are infinite possibilities as to the question of the origin of the Universe. Looking for answers in ancient books seems futile
getitrite.... so you cannot explain it? Well, being a Christian does not mean we have the answer to all of the questions you have about God. "Faith" is what makes your bond stronger with God. I would hope one day you will come to find him.
JT, you would make a good washing machine, running on fuzzy logic....
"Is there not people that you would like to see again?" You and your friends will have no characteristics of this life....you will all be free spirits with no form!
Lybrah, the immorality of eternal, flaming torture should be enough to convince anyone that it's false. Our conscience tells us Hell is wrong. If there were a Hell, then no human being could ever be as cruel and sadistic as the god you describe.
Why would an otherwise completely moral person who did good things in their life burn in eternal hellfire just because they didn't believe in God? That hardly seems loving.
Librah, This is exactly what I was talking about. I said in my opening that I need another reason beside "going to Hell "
Take away the threat of going to Hell...would you still want to go to heaven for eternity with the God of the OT?
Because they choose to send themselves to hell Aime, which basically absolves god of any blame in that regard.
At least that is the answer Lybrah gave when I asked her the same thing. Dont know if she will stick to it or something else will pop up.
Lybrah, No offense but... Any devout Christian could rattle off such irrelevancies. These things you speak of have not been shown to exist in reality. Your comment is negated because of lack of credibility. You have no answer to the question. No.
she has a perfect "answer" to the question, get. You just don't like it, eh.
I am quite surprised at the acceptance of this "believe my specific god or burn forever" mentality on this thread.
Jack, You obviously have taken off your critical thinking cap if you think that her woefully inadequate answer was PERFECT. Why should I accept love from someone(JESUS) who I would rather not be bothered with-just because he threatens me?
No one is threatening you.
Librah, of course its a threat. What if someone, u didn't really care for, tried to get you to love them? And after you told them that you were not interested, they began threatening that your life was gonna be made horrible because of your decision?
you have the choice, get. If you don't like the consequences of the choice you make then that is on your shoulders... not mine, lybrah's, your mother's, or anyone else's. But it's fascinating how hard you kick against that choice, eh.
I am sorry, get... when you posted "I" in the title I thought it meant you and not some anonymous other person who happens to be named I. My bad. My "proof" is to simply encourage folk to read the Bible. That is more than sufficient.
Actually, if you think it about it - it's abusive. Loving someone because you are told you have to, or you'll be forever tortured? We'd tell people to run from such a relationship if it were humans. Not judging, just..an observation.
Jack, you have done nothing but create a diversion here. This is not about me, but about this wonderful savior that has all the attributes of an egomaniacal abusive stalker. Where is your proof that this is NOT the attributes of an abuser?
Jack, Reading the Bible has actually been the reason why many folks have become atheists. Plus, if the Bible was the answer, then there would be consensus with ALL belief, instead we have 30000+ denominations. Your recommendation fails miserably
Again... their choice.... and the failings of "people" have little to nothing to do with the wisdom and truth found in the Bible.
Furthermore, if the rape victim does not accept Jesus before she dies, the rapist will get to watch her get thrown into the lake of fire, to be tortured forever. That makes perfect sense.
The Bible is clear... ALL of our supposed "righteousness" compared to the holiness of God is as nothing more than filthy rags. Your "yardstick" for measuring your personal goodness -- no matter who you are -- falls far short of what reality is.
Jack, I'm pretty sure that's not reality at all. It is however morally reprehensible. To accept this as justice, I would have to be completely fearful of, and subjugated to a ruthless immoral dictator, or be imbalanced in some way.
git, you have a deeply lacking understanding of the sovereignty of God. This leads your imagination down strange and unfruitful paths that lead nowhere, and will ultimately prove nonproductive for you. Your major problem is with your willful pride
Soo...it's not wrong that a repentant rapist has a better shot at heaven than the non believing victim, Jack?
Even worst than that, it is apparently ok to murder your son if God tells you to, because believers have to do EVERYTHING God tells them to do...even if its totally immoral..as morals are sacrificed because His ways appear foolish to us MORAL people.
perhaps link can explain how one person has a "better chance" when both have an equal ability to make their own personal choice. And then get can explain just exactly WHEN a father "murdered" his son. With details. and specifics.
Rapist commits horrible act, your god accepts him, rape victim gives up on belief in a god and the god gives up on her and sends her to some place to burn for eternity. Yeah, that's really something to want to worship! Ridiculous!
Ahh, now I get it. A person's actions has no bearing on whether or not they are received into heaven but purely based on their choice to accept god.
Heaven sounds pretty biased in the worst way possible
Although God provides no evidence for His existence, He demands that we all be stupid and gullible enough to believe anyway, and if we don't we pay a uber horrific price. But He relieves himself of any responsibility of providing evidence. absurd?
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools. Romans 1:21-22
I even have to admit, I could not reconcile having a rape victim and the rapist in the same heaven, talk about ackward situation. I would hope God would be kind enough to remove disturbing memories, if heaven is supposed to be a joyful place.
You people are getting Heaven all wrong. We will not be in our earthly bodies. We will not be influenced by anything but good! This world can be hell. That is why God has provided an eternity of paradise. No more hurting or pain.
JT, Just being dead, we will "no longer be in our earthly body" and there is "no more hurt and pain"
I don't need to go to Heaven for that to happen. And what makes you think that you will enjoy a life where there is nothing to offset GOOD?
That is not what my Bible tells me. Myself, I will trust in God.
It must be hard to imagine a world of only bliss, but many cultures speak of this place. You got to let go of this human concept of life. There is no need for "bad". How about only increasing "good". Spiritual bodies are eternal and blissful.
JT, thanks for your testimony, however it is apparent that you have no answer for this question. If your answer is to continually default to blind faith, then you cant possibly give a real honest answer.
If you want a concrete, positive answer; of course one cannot be given to you. It seems that many do not have the capacity of understanding "faith" and its benefits. Loving God and his son Jesus Christ is the "only" way to Heaven.
JT, yours is a straw man argument. You are telling people how to get to Heaven, but I asked why would anyone want to go to Heaven, if there was no threat of Hell. I don't care anything about blind faith, just honest answers to the opening question.
At this point is when I must wonder who you are trying to convince; me or yourself?
JT, if Heaven is so good, then why did a perfect angel as Lucifer rebel, knowing the consequences of his actions? Yet Heaven was not paradise enough to keep him from rebelling.There was no devil whispering in his ear, so where did he get the impetus
Former Atheist Academic Who Rejected God and Believed ‘Smart People Don’t Become Christians’ Reveals What Changed Her Mind Entirely
Jack, Just because an educated person suddenly decides to indulge in an unsound delusion doesn't mean that there is anymore truthfulness to the nonsense taught from ancient holy books. It only confirms that the professor is intellectually dishonest.
best you can do, eh, get?
Jack, It seems that you constantly use this comment as a default, thinking that somehow your condescension makes your unsound argument superior. To those of us who are aware, we clearly see this as a desperate attempt to EVADE. Its the Best you got.
I am always happy to leave it to the readers to determine if you make any sense. But it is fairly easy to point out their attention to the weakness and inabilities behind your posted words.
Jack, since your Christian faith causes you to become insulting and completely unreasonable, I feel there is no way to actually REASON with you. You have answered nothing, and have personally attacked me and others.No more, since this is my question
I answered you well... you just didn't like the answers. You didn't post on here for dialogue, you were just looking for an avenue to bash Christians. I know that, you know that, and the readers know it also.
You do realize this comment is incredibly offensive and consists of personal attacks right?
You also seemed to have proved a point I don't think getitrite was even trying to make. Bravo.
You have "nailed" it!
AMEN to this answer--it should be voted "best answer." I hope it sheds some light your way...
You can call it what you want - If calling a spade a spade, telling it like it is offends you you need to get a thicker skin. What I said is nothing more than justifiable observations based on more than just this Q&A but the usual writings by GIR
Tsadjatko is obviously relishing the thought of Getitrite and many others "ending up in Hell." He takes pleasure from the thought of people being tortured forever in flames. He demonstrates the inner thoughts of a cruel and sadistic person.
Surprise, out of nowhere, RTB putting words in peoples mouths & basically lying with every stroke of his pen, never addressing the Q&A but trolling for Christians to bash venting his suppressed anger. Why dignify his comments with an answer?
tsad, Wow! Sorry this question caused such intense cognitive dissonance. That was just a rant, and answered absolutely nothing. But maybe it assuages the cognitive dissonance when insulting me and threatening me with hell. Chill out my friend.
If you knew anything about God, Heaven and hell you would never accuse me of threatening you with hell which I did not do..I merely told you explicitly what the Bible says: reject God and you will spend eternity in hell not a threat, the truth.
tsad. Sorry but that sounds kinda comical. It seems that the only reason that believers THINK they want to go to heaven is that its been programmed into us...and the fear of hell! No logic employed. In fact, logic is this question's worst enemy.
I semi want to know what the comments say to be honest.
But then again, my blood pressure shouldnt jack up so high for someone as young as myself. I already seem to have gray hairs...
Link, It's amazing how someone can look right at the description of a monster, and declare that it is a description of a loving being...plus slavery is seen as freedom. Pretending to like things they don't...because some despot is always watching.
Best answer!! Don't you love the trolls tsad?
You don't have a contact email so I'll answer your fan mail here "I have never delete any comments,no matter how adamantly I disagree.It was probably admin. "This is simply not true my friend.Administration doesn't delete answers or comments.
tsad, you have leveled accusations against me that are patently false. Again, I have never deleted a comment or answer...EVER! If I had, I would admit to it. . Make sure you find out what ACTUALLY happened first, before convicting me. Thank you
So tell me if you haven't deleted my 5 comments where did they go? Are you moderating your Q&A properly. I am told sometimes a comment is moderated to spam if I am behind a a special firewall and you have to change that to show the comment.
Thanks for researching that. I have never seen that happen before, but that is most likely the problem. I will attempt to fix it.
This is indeed the case tsadjatko. The Op is responsible for letting Hubpages know if your comment is spam or not. All one must do is mark it as spam and it goes away. Very convenient.. huh my friend?
Well I apologize getitrite for assuming you deleted them purposely. I've never encountered this on my own Q&As either. I don't mind if you delete this and my last two comments about the deletions since hey are a distraction to your topic.
JT, the first time I saw the spam button, I hit it and the RED MESSAGE didn't go away. So I figured it was something that Admin was monitoring. I now know that it takes a few minutes for the RED MESSAGE to go away. NO MALICIOUS INTENT ON MY PART.
Starsofeight, It seems that there have been several different descriptions of Heaven-within this discussion. Why is that? And yes, I do have an aversion to worship, because worship seems a very undignified admiration taken to a disturbing degree.
Some people flee when no one is chasing them. I simply meant to counter your earnest concern with an overlooked fact: that being that worship and praise are human qualities, every bit as common and mundane as anything else you might do or say.
Well, there are plenty of other versions of paradise that promise the same or similar things. Why not follow those religions/gods?
I have no desire for eternal life, even if you claim it offers all those thing that you stated...if the God of the Bible is there. He is counter to all that you have stated. So your answer is based on presumption. Now, do you have any other reason?