Do you believe in heaven or hell after death? Is it true? has there a life after death?
Well heaven and hell as concepts do exist. It is a truth for millions of people who believe in religion and this influences their lives like it were true. The concept is that of a reward/punishment we are sure to get for the things we do.
It doesn't mean anything to those who are not religious, or who do not believe in anything which can not be proved or rationalized.
This is what I believe : they exist if you believe in them.
Personally I don't think that I believe in them.
Heaven and Hell is real! You can go to spiritlessons.com or go to youtube and listen to some testimonies by these people: Angelica Zambrano, Mary K. Baxter, Bill Wise, Choo Thomas, Earthquake kelly, Jennifer Perez, a Nigerian man that was dead and brought back to life after 3 days and he was also shown heaven and hell. So many more but these are just some of the people with real heaven and hell experiences. Yes! It is very risky not to believe!
I do believe in life after death. Heaven and hell is easily depicted within scripture. However, man's concept of either dimension's reality can't be fully comprehended until we leave the physical body. I look forward to the next spiritual challenge and entering the kingdom of heaven.
I've examined many a religion. I refuse to believe any one is right or wrong - to believe in God would mean the unfortunate ones who've not the chance shouldn't be shut out simply for not knowing in Him. Instead, I believe not particularly in any one being, but instead an ever-flowing essence which we perceive as God in our own way. This essence is made of all and everything, that was, is, and shall ever be.
In a sense, God is present in all of us. It IS our thoughts and feelings, our choices and interactions, our loves AND our hates. Each is that essence along it's own path, yet indeed all paths intertwine. Life IS everlasting as life gives birth to life and death is but a release of the essence we hold returning to rejoin the ultimate holy essence we know as God.
This, in what I believe, explains all and everything I've come to know about. Think of our universe as a constantly thriving explosion that began long beyond our comprehension just as researchers have estimated the "Big Bang" Theory. The "Big Bang" is that essence known as God. From the greatest of cosmic bodies to the perceptively minute forms of matter we understand as the atomic structure, all is indeed God.
God has many forms. The one I value most is the one I call Gar - I know it as we all do, Gar is my name for God's chaos. Chaos, in how I explain it here, is not any perceptive form of evil, rather it is the instance, however it acts, in which all that is, changes. During change, anything can happen to whatever is involved in the change, it is chaotic, yet it ends in a balance as the new form. This is what I mean to say when I state Gar is the God of chaos. Not a separate God, mind you, but his power at work, altering His form from one to another, and it is and will always be happening at all times.
I've had what I know in my soul to have been a recollection of a before life experience. In my recollection, I do announce my purpose to rejoin into the physical plane of existence to be born again and to help those in need and face any challenges in doing so. I've since done so with my life and will continue onward. This recollection I've not told to many for it is not in most of our human understanding to believe such, but I state I am an open book and it is why, in responding here and now I am stating so.
I hold no authority myself, only a willingness to value us as a whole, that whole belonging to everyone and everything we will ever know - as God.
You err due to a lack of knowledge my brother, lets examine your belief system for starters, there is no right or wrong? So if a person comes to your home breaks in and brutally murders your family and steals all your earthly belongings, they have not wronged you? You are at the bank making a withdrawal and the teller gave you a $100.00 too much and you realizing the repercussions return it, have you not done the right thing?
As far as believing in Jesus Christ the first thing you must know is that he is a just God and gives everyone a chance to know him.
Ecclesiastes 9:11 (KJV)
11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
Time and chance happens to everyone so says King Solomon the wisest man in all history. You need to stop examining religions and get to know the true and living God.
Acts 2:38 (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
here is your chance don't miss it!
And, apparently you need to learn that Jesus spoke in metaphors combined with religious parables.
Do you think you have the metaphors all figured out correctly? Or are you just yapping off from what you've been taught?
Just a thought.
No, johnnyco12, I err in that I'm human, just like you. Like you I made a mistake, which you've proven in your response, which unfortunately is towards you misunderstanding of what I've stated.
When I said that "I refuse to believe any one is right or wrong," I meant that I refuse to believe any religion is right or wrong. Since I had referenced the subject of religions in the sentence prior to this one, I felt it would have been apparent that speaking of "any one" inherently meant "any one religion." My bad.
My true err, as you so put though, is what led to your irrelevant response - hence your err, brother. Meanwhile, you also erred in your statement several times as well, which led to Cagsil's response.
In any event, this is all off topic so, in doing the right thing, I'm not responding further to your statement other than that you should rethink things for yourself.
@Cagsil - Appreciate the support but don't mind the guy, he'll have to figure this one out. Should he ask for some help, I'd love to elaborate, but this is throwing the topic off so, not here. Thanks again, though, good thought.
Well, to answer honestly, I would have to indulge such an event as death to determine if there is locations called heaven or hell. Both terms, in several perspectives, are explained as more a place, and death being the access to them.
In another perspective, a most non-theological one, even though it was build into theologies, is heaven-earth, the melding of intangible perfection with tangible perfection. Invisible light bends to become a spectra of nature, of wonders called creation. They are together, ever constant. Should the natural or tangible break connection with the intangible, then certainly all hell breaks loose and the result can only be that event called death.
There is no evidence by equation nor sensation, nor in the tangible, that states emphatically and unequivocally, humans must die, and much evidence to show they have aged and died. That means, ignorance and apathy define that event, form a Theos and those to stasis, individually.
In addition, from the rational point of view, information overload or emptiness can be considered hell and heaven. The human mind at work, endlessly bombarded by the result of light frequencies ever interlocking and dispersing, certainly would cause a madness, a hellishness and result in death. The other would do the same, a complete loss of information.
I personally believe in an afterlife. Why, maybe because I am afraid of death being forever..., I really just don't know. But what happens to us after we die I think depends a lot on our own perceptions. What I mean by that is I don't believe heaven is paved in gold and Hell marked by fire. I don't know if there are actual places for the soul to travel too. I think heaven and Hell are more a state of being in which our souls will dwell in. Heaven could very be a state of peace or joy. While Hell a state where the soul resides in a constant place of misery.
I believe in the concept of Heaven and Hell. I don't believe that either are as they are depicted. Being that they are used for a moral punishment/reward system by religions across the globe, I believe that the details are magnified so as to fully reinforce these values and keep people in line.
Accomplishment of the purpose of life as set by the Creator God for humans is heaven anf failure to accomplish it is hell; hell is remorse of not doing what one could have done easily. After treatment in the hell for a long time; one could go to heaven though.
I've always believed in heaven and hell. Just finished 90 Minutes in Heaven by Don Piper who tells the true story of how he died for 90 minutes, went to heaven, and then came back. It's also an inspirational story about his recovery from his accident.
True story. How do you know it isn't simply an inspirational tale to proselytize? How do you know it wasn't a dream? How do you know it wasn't hallucinations from drugs? There are a great many possibilities other than truth.
Good point. I meant true story as in he says it's a true story but anyone can say that.
There are only 2 people (Jesus and Dante) that have ever reported visiting either place.
The respective books are both highly fictionalized and neither can be taken at face value.
Even while recognizing that the mythology presented in one of the two is taken as factual by many people, there is still no evidence whatsoever that either exists.
Life after death? Again there is absolutely no evidence outside of personal anecdote that such a thing is possible. Although many have claimed to see ghosts or talk to dead ancestors 100% of those claims that have actually been rigorously investigated have been shown to be fraudulent or at best supposition only that the event occurred as reported.
No truly rational person will (or should) believe in something with no evidence. It is a part of the reason we have developed oversized brains - to help make decisions based on fact, not emotion or desire. Such decisions are more likely to actually be factual and correct.
I believe in a higher power that every living thing is connected to. I think that however we go about our daily lives can be Heaven or Hell for an individual. Belief is in the eye of the beholder, literally. People once believed that the earth was flat:)
Man says " Show me and I'll believe, God says "Believe and I will show you!"
Hebrews 11:1 (KJV)
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
I am going to see the love of my life when it comes my time. My brain is temporary so I will leave that behind. Whats inside of me will live on. I am going to be with the ones I love forever.
The desire to know if God and if Heaven and Hell exist is strong for a lot of people but God for whatever reason wants his people to trust him maybe because trust signifies love. There will be those who will never be able to trust and so they place their faith in evidence yet evident won't be enough for many to accept God because as it's really not about evidence it's about what they want and they don't want to be held responsible for the action a Christian God is holding us all to.
Look at Jesus time on this planet and all the miracles he perform like walking on water and still people question if he could be the son of God so even if some people saw God standing in front of them they wouldn't accept him.
When I get out there to heaven - I plan on raising plenty of hell
I seldom participate in these kind of forums because they become irreconcilable arguments that benefit no one, but I must comment on this since I know without a shadow of a doubt that there is definitely a heaven and most assuredly a hell.
The bible tells us all that Jesus has gone to prepare a place for us,John 14:2-3 (KJV)
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
John the revelator gives us a glimpse of this wonderful place,
Revelation 21:1-27 (KJV)
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Paul tells us that we can't even imagine how great this place God is preparing for us,1 Corinthians 2:9-10 (KJV)
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
However heaven is not a consolation prize nor is a place where everyone will wind up, only those who keep God's commandments and have his spirit dwelling in them will see heaven.
I believe in Heaven and hell.
I have experienced miracles that cannot be explained with human words or scientifically.
I have not only experienced these miracles but I have seen them not only in my personal life but in the medical field.
I have looked in the eyes of a newborn perfect child.
I've held someone's hand as they slipped away into eternity full of faith knowing where they were going.
There are many many other reasons why I believe in both Heaven and hell.
Some things cannot be explained, especially to closed ears.
But I believe that God has given us the choice to make and we can't make that choice for someone else but we can share what we believe.
Very thought provoking question! Thank you!
If heaven or hell can be said to exist, it is before death, rather than after it. Man has the ability to create heaven or hell for himself or for others. Whilst most of us would desire this life to be heaven, hell is often the result of our hatreds and fears. There is something very destructive in the human personality.
I agree. People who see the bad and a"sin" in others need to see how that works.
Projection of an unrecognised aspect of self on to others.
Several Psychologist believe that if you could lock up all the people screaming for punishment of others and treat them, we could make huge leaps forward in cleaning up the pool of neurotics in society to a large degree.
I personally do not believe in these places. When life ceases we are dead period! I really do not see why people think we go to these places or anywhere for that matter after death. There is no logic behind this kind of thinking. If you die at the age of 95 will you still have the physical characteristics of a 95 year old person in these places? Will the clock be reset to a younger age? What if you spouse died 20 years before you and you lived another 30 years what happen in this case? Do time stop in these places or continue to move forward? What is it that these believers are looking for in these places? Is heaven an infinite size because if it isn't it must be very populous? Thousands of people die everyday and are no longer here.
In my opinion I believe we simply cease to exist and go back into non-existence as we were before we were born. The memories of our existence, basically our spirit, in the minds of other is what is passed on from one generation to the next until it too fades from existence.
Life ends when all biochemical reactions that produce the energy requirement to power our body and maintain consciousness in us stop. People sometimes prefer to call this the soul. These terms mean the same thing to me, therefore, when we die the soul also cease to exist and disappears into nothingness. It does not go anywhere and it definitely does not go to these places people called heaven and hell. These places do not exist and there is no evidence of their existence. They are just mythical places in people thoughts.
I am quite certain "biochemical consciousness" is a misunderstood version of ignorance and neglect of appreciation for something great. For example, the "energy" which empowers said body. That body IS the energy that powers itself, unless of course we are plugging our bums into electromagnetic refueling stations.
And, precisely where is this supposed nothingness? Energy never dies. Both sides of Theos (science & sensation) at least concede this. But it does exemplify your thinking and statement of things people "make up". Mythical, I think is the word you used.
Still, with the nay-saying, as a scientist of such esteemed and firm convictions, you --nor Earnest, etc-- can provide proof pro or con. So, rhetorically, how irrational, ignorant and apathetic is that?
Okay, so you have proof of this, or are you also making this up, too? If the later, then there is a real contradiction and injustice happening.
Here in lies the problem, ladies and gents, you are asking for proof or trusting to negate something you refuse to understand. Yes, I am aware you "just want to know", which is completely respected given the present stasis of temporal humanity has been spoon fed into believing --and yes, every one has believed from atheist to zealot -- in death. And because of believing, now know whether or not there is, by experience. Yet, none have provided proof that death is required to experience these stasis, should they exist as places.
My sincere advice is this: if you must [still/continue] to choose, then choose Life, so that you AND your kinship may live. Not just you and not just your grand-kids, but both.
Very clearly stated melpor, you have a very clear understanding of what is mythical and what is real. We pass on something of ourselves to the world while we are here, and hopefully live on in the memories of our children and theirs.
Very nicely said.
I am agree with you Earnestshub..There is a world when we are live and then live in the memories of the people.. Great :
I have a hands on situation living with 5 of my beautiful grandchildren and their amazing mother, I help to make memories every day.
One of the six year old twins is prone to say out of the blue, "I love you granpa, you're just the bestest granpa in the whole world" as she hugs me.
I will never forget these moments, and I know from my own experience as a child, neither will they.
Hopefully we pass on how to love and be tolerant and patient with ourselves and others.
Our little ones go to a school which promotes self worth and confidence in the children from prep to grade 6 when they move to a school with the same values as this one. Our two older ones go there now, or to be more accurate one has recently graduated and is working and going to university. All good so far, and no religion.
@ earnests hub You are right and wish you long life and love to your Grandchilds ......
I am 19 yrs. old.. i know it is the truth of life the death'll come and also fear how it come,When it come which don't know....But i am happy that if i'll go.... i will live in everyone's memories whom i met even they are my parents,my friends my neighbours but a wish that i want to leave my footprints into everyone's heart.
Who knows life after death, I only care about life living now and I want to turn it into a haven, also like to make other people happy by helping them as much as possible before my death.
I can't help myself, I have to ask this, to all of you that say there is no heaven, hell, or God, Are you afraid to die? If so why, if you are so sure there is no hereafter why fear? Are you sure there is no hell, can you afford to be wrong?
No. And, I would willingly give my life up for any other person on the planet. How about you?
I have no fear, as stated above.
This statement is based on fear, in and of, itself.
@jihnnyco12 your comment reminds me a quote "Everybody wants to go haven, but nobody wants to die" may be funny but logical.
I believe that once u die your soul doesnt continue to exist. I happen to believe in the bible and according to ecclesiasties the dead know nothing. Thats my belief, and I understand not everyone believes in God, thats their perogative. But just have a look around, just in nature we can see that we are created and not here by pure chance. The heavens itself declare the glory of God. Evolution requires just just as much faith as believing in God does, theres no proof for it, just a theory. But back to life after death, the bible teaches that Jesus Christ will return (soon I believe) and that the dead in Christ will rise from their graves to reign with him forever. So yes there is hope after the grave, but u dont continue to exist somewhere after you die. It doest make sense, imagine ur up there and u see the pain and suffering of your loved ones, thats no heaven...
"ur up there and u see the pain and suffering of your loved ones, thats no heaven..."
That should make sense to anyone.
I think something else could be said to this -
Who IS to say? Instead, I say don't worry yourself about the subject of death, worry about who YOU are, now - are you happy with where YOU are headed, in your life? Are you living to the fullest?
Two thoughts for you to ponder...
1) Judge not, lest ye be judged. What this says is that we judge ourselves. If you ever hold anyone up to such a judgment, think if you hold yourself to such.
2) God created man in His image. In that same token, we also create His image in light of our own. We, ourselves are not God specifically, but rather OF Him. Most say that He could do better, I think we all could as well. What would that gift of free will be for otherwise?
With that, I leave you to think...
The same people who give us heaven and hell would like to tell us which one we are going to.
It is all a lot of unsupportable psychotic nonsense!
When you believe in God, you must also believe that Satan exist. When you are religious you have to believe in heaven and hell. I'm a spiritualist, and I don't believe in the kind of heaven and hell the world religions have proposed. Heaven and hell is in the earth, within ourselves.
I believe in will. Good will and bad will. Both are easily apparent on this discussion. Every coin has two sides, meaning every person is capable of either of these two abilities of will.
I believe, when a soul is released from the physical body, there is no predetermined side to choose from, instead that the essence of that soul becomes one with everything else, both physical and spiritual, not unlike the perception of God as I've stated above. This soul still exists in a spiritual sense in and of itself as well, and it can have an effect on the physical world as well. I believe in dreams, premonitions, unexplainable phenomenons, and even a universal thought-weft of sorts, constantly effecting the thoughts of the living, as being proof of this.
The evidence is all around us, all the time, in so many forms, it's just not physically proven in any certain way. Proof of the "thought-weft" theory is the most evident - Have you ever had a coincidence? I believe in that there are no coincidences, just that it is a spiritual sharing of events, a coming of crossroads, if you will. It even happens more frequently when our will is not enforced, meaning we decided either to put less effort forth or possibly not at all, leaving the universe to lead us. This is our evidence if we are to accept it as such, and in my views, it's simply Gar(chaos) at work!
I believe heaven is God's abode and the earth, a place for man. But for hell, it is man's common grave and not a place of punishment or fiery furnace as postulated by christendom. Truth is when one dies, he cease to exist ie he goes back to the grave. I ask, if you believe that when you die you go to heaven why did are you more righteous than lazarus who died and spent some days in the grave even though he was righteous? Read john 11:1,2, 39
What about hell? When Adam died, why didnt the scriptures say he went to hell? Read Gen 3:19
following the words found at Ecclesiastes 3: 1-12 will be beneficial. Be blessed
The early churches took such a literal view of "god above" that they made high roofs in the shape of a cross covering the whole church so god could see it. Apparently he wouldn't be able to spot it from Heaven unless it was enormous.
Did they think he was the man in the moon?
Wouldn't everyone have one of those if it were heaven?!
(...well, those who needed it, I should say!)
Awesome comic and so spot on in this discussion!
It is the unknown that most of us fear. But as no one has really give a clear picture of life after death, so it is always remain as a puzzle.
But personally, I do believe the existence of life after death as we will be reincarnated. It is the cycle of life.
When do this cycle stops? If we realize the reason of our existence and knowing the truth behind the cycle of life, that will be the time we are living in the next plane like the parallel universe to observe living beings.
It's been a very long discussion on haven and hell, i would like contribute with small story to bring more insight on this topic
There was HR manager (Female)who died and her soul was going to an angel.
Angel: Welcome to the haven gate.It's our first time that a soul of HR manager cam across us and we were unable to judge that whether we put you in have or hell.
so we have decided we will put you one day in hell and one day in haven and after experience you can choose where you want spend rest of your eternity.
Angel sent him to hell first, as the door opens she saw her friends chapping laughing and they were calling her everything was green and bright sun warm environment in one word it was awesome for here.
Then suddenly angel called here back
Angel: Now it's your time to spend in haven.
When the door opens there no one not a single of his friends she was alone and visualizing clouds and wandering here and there, here one day was spending like years, at last her day was completed and angel called here back.
Angel: So what did you decided.
HR: Hmm.. Haven is nice but i want to spend my rest of the eternity in hell.
Angel sent here to hell, when she gone back she saw grungy environment and the world she saw was ruined and her friends were in torn and dirty clothes, things are burning up and she felt pain and deep sorrow a kind of nightmare for here.
HR:This not the world I was yesterday.
Devil:Yesterday we were recruiting you and today you have been recruited.
I Hope you all like it,
The moral i learn is
"What you see is not always true and what you haven't why to worry about it until unless you see them"
Live your life by loving parents, wife kids, and grand angels.
by awesome77 7 years ago
I have observed how we humans are consumed by our desire to go to heaven when we die! No wonder we have feel good preachers and political leaches who prey on peoples ignorance!How can you believe a theory that has never been verified!Based on the concept of who is going to heaven as written in the...
by Jonathan Janco 6 years ago
Someone once said something to the effect of 'Heaven is what you want it to be and Hell is what you make of it', or something like that. I believe we have something of a dual consciousness once we're no longer a physical manifestation. We witness a dark realm where we judge ourselves for what we...
by ShaunLindbergh 7 years ago
We hear a huge amount about avoiding hell but what is heaven like? I can see why I shouldn't want to go to hell but please answer this; Why should I want to go to heaven?And please don't come with all the canned sermonnettes, I am sure we have...
by Jenna Ditsch 5 years ago
Which of these do you believe is true about the afterlife? My research shows one or more is true...A. Heaven is a literal planet in the universe and hell a literal place in the center of the EarthB. Everything in heaven-from food, to clothing, to the homes, etc. are made from...
by Anan Celeste 21 months ago
Why are there spirits roaming the earth? Does this means that there is no heaven or hell?
by getitrite 3 years ago
Is There Any Reason That I Would Want To Go To Heaven?...Is there any reason other than...the other choice is Hell? I have no desire whatsoever to go to such a place that is described in the Bible as Heaven. To me it is just the lesser of two evils. I couldn't imagine worshiping...
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