This question is in response to the ignorant questions asked by Christians whose hearts are breaking over us supposedly uncaring humans 'murdering babies'. I have had it with being accused of being a heartless human when such hypocrisy exists. Source, guttmacher: seven in 10 US women obtaining an abortion report a religious affiliation (37% protestant, 28% Catholic and 7% other). The abortion rate for protestant women is 15 per 1,000 women, while Catholic women have a slightly higher rate, 22 per 1,000. If abortion is wrong, why do they do it? Why do they need a law to refrain from this sin?
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Yes, this was my experience with some of my Christian friends growing up. Take the plank out of your own eye... Many do not believe abortion is murder - STOP the stupid accusations. It's judgmental, divisive & ungodly to force ANY view onto othe
This is a very thoughtful answer and reminds us of that there are many "sins". The most important one being a lack of forgiveness, especially to those that suffer. God bless the children and God bless the women.
I would like to clarify that I do believe abortion is murder, and as Christians we should do our best to protect the unborn. It was not my intention to make it seem not so.
Christians have no business judging those outside the church. Paul commented (paraphrasing) that it is God who judges those outside the church, we're to judge (rightly) those within the church. This means Christians holding each other accountable.
Kris, your intentions were obvious and compassionate. It is good to oppose abortion. And just as important that we pray for and support all women who are faced with crisis.
Kris, I did not think for a second that you were 'for' abortion. Your response seemed typical of my Christian peers growing up - yeah, I used to be a Christian; and I know why you have the views you do. Thanks Hxprof for the clarification on judging.
unfortunately you are confusing church members with Christians. A real Christian would not murder their child
That excuse keeps getting used 'they aren't really Christians' to choose abortion in the first place. The daughters of Christian parents are not considered to be Christians? Inform yourself: http://hub.me/ak9PR
That has been my experience - young girls from religious backgrounds not wanting to tell; OR their parents force them to get an abortion to avoid embarrassment. Lesser abortions need to start in Christian homes instead of insisting on a law.
Maybe this shows a clearer picture of what we are talking. http://www.abort73.com/abortion/abortion_pictures/
I am WELL AWARE of what we are talking about... You seem to be trying to present your own side show. All 5 of my (college age) Christian friends BELIEVED having an abortion was wrong and they felt horrible - and still do. This is a COMMON scenario!!
I just think women should be clearly aware what they are doing and it should be shown to them instead of brushed off as a small matter.
I would agree with that. My friends 'got the pamphlet' that explained everything and showed the pics. They had beliefs that they pushed aside in order to not have to face their families. I could NOT talk them out of it - I tried!! Fear is powerful.
You are so right.Make them have vasectomies to prevent it, and see how quickly abortion becomes "a simple medical procedure", what's all that the fuss? Men demagogue this issue because it makes them feel powerful, when it's women who have it. Nature
You are so CORRECT!!!!! Abortions have been here since the beginning. Let's help keep abortion LEGAL.
tsadjatko, just read the hub I wrote to go with this; and THEN if you still feel like what you wrote is appropriate - I will promise not to delete it. http://hub.me/ak9PR
NOW WE ARE IN TOTAL AGREEMENT ON THIS ONE! SPOT ON!
This is so dang true, it's maddening. And of course, they have the subject of abortion all wound up as 'murder' to squeeze women's hearts into submission. A baby can also 'choose' to end things before term is up - and sometimes they do.
Yes, and of course, minimize the life that's already here: the woman! Who, BTW, is someone's baby.Honestly, I think it's just a power thing. One thing man can't do, and it's a doozy! Woman can feel sad, but never guilt. Guilt is destroyer, & no n
If I'm going to be forced to have a vasectomy, it better be free :)
I'd rather adopt anyway.
Adoption is underrated by both sides here!
It's perfectly natural to kill one's children? That's a very dim picture.
Umm, let's see...I had to buy birth control, had to pay for IUD, then have my tubes tied. Nope, I say you pay for vasectomy, and when you want to have child, u go before a bunch of pastors and they can decide for u if it's allowed.How long that last?
...it was more of a joke harping on the fact that birth control for women seems to be rather expensive.
Oh sorry Link. Humor is always welcome! My bad !
Abortion is taking the life of a human being--in this case, an innocent human being who is your own child. Murder is one of the most serious of sins.
Kathleen, you missed this: Take the plank out of your own eye. Many do not believe abortion is murder - STOP the stupid accusations. It's judgmental, divisive & ungodly. Plus, you answered before you read this - in ignorance bcuz you refuse to li
If we think birth control is expensive, take a peek at the Total Bill of raising one child from birth through college graduation!! That bottom line will encourage birth control!!
stoppatriarchy.org - One of their slogans is, "abortion on demand & without apology!" :)
Otherwise known as freedom. You know, like assault rifles are my god given right and killing people in war is a necessary evil. When people start demanding you have abortions, then we can talk. Until then, Row v Wade, second amend, AUMF.
More painful - and more exposed. You can't 'hide' a pregnancy that way. Fear of rejection - among other things - is why abortion is chosen most often.
I tell you where I got them within the question - and you can do a search. This question is ALSO based on the experiences I have had with my Christian friends. I wish people would STOP dismissing that part because that is the MOST IMPORTANT part.
Where did those statistics come from -- Planned Parenthood?
I understand the 'personhood' of babies; and I understand that souls do not enter a fetus (which has no personhood) until the body is capable of doing so - often shortly before or after birth. Your religion creates hysteria & division from ignora
Looks like Guttmacher Inst.
I should think it would be very interesting to analyze how much more or less likely having a strong religious affiliation affects the chances of having an abortion.
Yes, guttmacher.org - the information is a few years old. I have had a few Christian friends have to make this choice - and more chose abortion than not because they feared their parents more than their God. Why? This is the reason for this question.
You're still not focused on the question of whether or not the fetus is a person. If your friends believed that, then I don't think they would have elected to follow through. I'm still convinced that your statistics are misleading.
Those statistics can be found in other places if you don't like the source I used. Do a search. They will vary slightly. These girls KNOW what they are doing when they go in for an abortion. They have been taught all their lives how wrong it is...
I think the womans life supersedes the growing fetus. It is dumb, cruel, and economically ruinous to have a child unwanted. It can be prevented, and should be. Here, have this child, then watch it die by gunfire, bomb, starvation. That's OK with god!
In situations when it is one life or another, sure. But you'd be insane to say that it's okay to kill a baby rather than give it a chance at life.
It's insane to expect a woman to give up hers for your religious views!
Taking care of the baby you've made is tough? Therefore kill it? In what universe does that seem like the most compassionate response? One can always give up for adoption.
Yes, until 3,000 extra babies are put up for adoption every day and there aren't nearly enough people wanting to adopt them.
Even if that were true, would that be better or worse that murdering 3000 people a day?
Doesn't seem all that compassionate to the mother and the child to force her to have a baby she either doesn't want or literally is unable to care for, or to force her to give it up to someone else.
Back to my solution-there is only one true way for 100% no abortion:either have no sex--Yeah right, men will go for that.Or force vasectomies on all baby boys.When they want a child, they can have it reversed. No public funds used:Forehyde amendment.
I'm sure that depends on your perspective. Just wanted to throw it out there that giving every baby up for adoption would have its own crappy outcome for most kids.
Forcibly sterilize all male infants... I had no idea you were a fascist.
How about people engage in sex when they are engaged in a marriage to someone they want to have a child with?
Leslie, that's an interesting point. I wonder how men would react to every woman on the planet abstaining from sex. We'd probably see just as many abortions but as a result of rape instead of just an oopsie. Sounds great!
It's surprising how many people still hold the viewpoint "No sex before marriage", and then wonder why unwanted pregnancies are so prevalent...
Travis, what about a married couple who don't want children? Are they still not allowed to have sex?
Hmm, forcibly sterilizing males is fascist....forcing females to give birth is "godly"...I can clearly see the problem here. Like said, it's 2016. My daughter is not a brood-mare. And if you want zero abortion, my way is best. But that's not it,isit?
If its between circumcision and sterilization, If given the choice I would have gone with the one that's reversible and actually has some common sense behind it...
Well yes, that's what I said. Vasectomy. Travis turned it into forced sterilization to demonizing my words. They're good at that here. Careful, soon you'll be told you enjoy killing babies. They really stop at nothing.
They can do whatever they want so long as it doesn't involve murdering their children.
Neither is your daughter a rutting animal in heat. Why is there such a big problem with impulse control? No sex = no baby. It's that easy.
Impulse control isn't much of a problem, provided you bother to actually educate people.
If someone goes the stupid route and just says "No sex", how anyone is surprised they not only had sex but got pregnant/contracted an STD is beyond me.
Hmm, try this: my body, my decision. My private life, not your business. Or do we amend the constitution to allow your religion into my bedroom? How about my career? How I raise my kids? Does separation mean nothing? Founding dads thought so. So do I
They can do whatever they want until they do something that doesn't fit with your views and then you want to take away their choices. Very kind of you.
Murdering your children isn't a "private choice" though. I'm sorry if you think it is. This isn't a "religious position" it's a nonmurder one. Secularist pro-lifers.
I tend to draw the line at murder. Where do you draw the line?
But it's not an undebatable stance. You have to understand that not everyone considers terminating a pregnancy to be murder. You're free to hold that opinion but you're not free to impose it on everyone else.
And you are imposing your view on everyone else. Let's say that there is a 10% chance I am right. Would you take a 10% chance of murdering your child?
How am I imposing my view? I'm not forcing people to have abortions. I actually would never have an abortion myself, I wouldn't feel comfortable with it. But that's me. I've no interest in saying everyone else should feel the same way.
If the official position is that you can have an abortion, then the official position is that abortion isn't murder and the fetus is not a person.
If you're wrong and the fetus is, you are guilty of advocating mass murder, right?
Sure, whatever. If someday it's somehow proven that a fetus can be considered a conscious, viable being from conception then you go right ahead and say I advocated mass murder. Until then, I'll defend a woman's right to make choices for herself.
Personhood is not contingent upon consciousness or viability. You agree that you are imposing your views by arguing for an official position that permits abortion? Great.
No, I'm not, because my view doesn't force anyone to do anything they don't want to do. Don't believe in having an abortion? Don't have one!
Travis, if you disagree with abortion, choose not to get an abortion. See how easy that was!
By that logic slaveholders so were not imposing their view either. "Don't want slaves? Don't want slavery? Don't own one!"
Once you prove indisputably that an embryo or a zygote or a fetus is a person then I'll admit that my position is imposing upon them, okay?
Whether or not a view is being "imposed" is not contingent upon that views being correct or incorrect. What are your criterion for determining personhood?
It does matter in this situation because if a fetus isn't a person then how can I impose on them?
I have no concrete,indisputable answer just as you don't. I think viability is a fair gauge as it weighs both a woman&fetus' rights to some extent
Views can be imposed regardless of whether they are right or wrong. I do have a criterion. Does a fetus in Nigeria suddenly become a person by being viable in the U.S.? Does flying back to Nigeria take away that personhood?
What laws? When life begins, when you have the right to impose them on me? There already laws. It's called nature. Women birth, no man made laws necessary.
No. I agree with no abortions after ~20 weeks. When no fetus anywhere in the world is going to survive if born.
Hypothetical artificial wombs make every fetus viable though. Personhood in your eyes is contingent upon technology.
That's fine for you.....but still, things happen that cannot be expected. I say leave it up to the woman. Trust her to do what's right. How in the world is this not the norm? Partial birth is necessary. Women die.
"Let the woman decide if she will kill her children."
"A fetus is only a person if I feel like it is..."
You aren't exactly the paragon of rational argumentation are you?
No, I've already said I don't have an exact point of 'personhood'. I don't think a fetus is a person from conception, I think it happens sometime btwn then & viability. W/o knowing exactly when I think it needs to be weighed w/ a woman's rights t
Why is the fertilized embryo not a person? Does a woman have a right to kill her children?
Why is every single egg that a woman has in her body not a person?
For the billionth time, not everyone sees terminating a pregnancy as killing a child. She has the right to decide for herself until someone else can prove when personhood begins.
I've given birth 3 times, and I can't explain it. How bout yourself? I know...why don't you explain it to me! Explain the working of the universe. Explain to me the mystery of creation. I'll wait.Meanwhile, I'll trust my experience over your beliefs.
Because a fertilized egg has the unique DNA of a person, while an unfertilized egg does not. "We don't know if it's murder, but go ahead anyway." Is that really your position?
My stance is that a woman has rights in this situation and clearly yours is that she does not. On that point we will never agree.
Her rights do no supersede those of her child insofar as abortion is concerned. No thoughts on why a fertilized egg is not a person?
Another anecdotal fallacy. You're just a walking catalogue aren't you?
Sperm has unique DNA. Shall we prevent masturbation? The nuns used to say it made you go blind.i know- let's control every waking moment of every person's life so no one offends your views on what constitutes life.You don't like masturbation?yadayada
Les, does sperm contain the complete DNA of a unique human being? No. Only a fertilized egg does. Why don't you come back when you have a non-emotional criterion for personhood?
In no stretch of my imagination is a fertilized egg as much of a person as a woman whose personhood is debated by literally no one.
So a fertilized egg can't be vested with personhood because you can't imagine that being so? Fallacy of argument from incredulity. Still waiting on a salient reason.
I thought we covered that already. An egg becomes a person when the woman says it does. That is the way of this world. That's how the Creator made it. No amount of arguing will change it. I accept my role in nature. You have no say. Sorry to burst it
Lol, then a 2 year old child isn't a person unless the mother says that she is. You're just repeating yourself now. If you have no salient criterion for personhood then you have no basis for participation in this discussion.
I think personhood is far more complicated than simply being a collection of DNA, which is why determining the exact point of "becoming a person" is so difficult.
Lol! A woman has no basis to be in a discussion about birthing babies and life. Whatsa matter, travvy? Jealous?
Can you give me a salient reason that you object to that criterion though? You told me personhood depended on technology a moment ago-
I'm just curious, are your children not persons if you "feel" that they are not?
Oh oh course travvy.i wake up everyday and see if I feel my kids are people. Makes it hard when they ask for food, cause you know, why do things need food? When they were in my belly, I just "knew" when it was real. Still waiting 4 u to explain it.
You said that personhood is conferred by fiat of the mother. Stands to reason if you can give it you can take it away. See how absurd your position is? I think that even Aime can see that your position is ridiculous. Still no salient criterion I see.
Oh I see, so YOURE going to give it or take it away, huh? Yeah that makes sense in travvy land, not the real world.The life or lack of which is in my private life is absolutely none of your business.The buck stops there.End war,if you care about life
Truth is that it isn't up for anyone to decide by fiat. Science tells us that at conception we have the creation of unique individualized DNA. I kinda like it when you call me pet-names Lezzie- what are you single, divorced, widowed, married?
Really? That's what every Republican elected since 2010 has done. The men in robes and monkey suits have decreed that women do not have the right to self determination. Treat them with derision. Kind of like you have treated me. Surely u expect same?
If by "self-determination" you mean murder your own children- then absolutely. Common' Lezzles- you don't like it when I want to talk about you? Who is Chris? Husband? Brother? Son?
Your failure to make sense is impacting our relationship.
We don't have a relationship travvy. We don't even reside on same plane. And I've had run ins w your type way too often around here. It's unbelievable to me this Ignorance still lives. Separate America!
That's just like you to deny it in public. You mean you still haven't told Chris about us?
I'm not sure how much longer I can put up with your emotional abuse. You said last time that you'd work on it but I can see through that lipservice now.
Oh trav, trav....u know you'd never stoop to embarrass yourself w someone like me. One who believes in the laws of nature, has respect for women, and believes in them. Further, someone who's actually experienced what you pretend to know about! Oh no.
You're right, I don't touch crazy.
I'll tell you what, you learn how to string syllogisms together and then come back with a criterion for personhood that isn't "feeling" based- and we can have an adult conversation.
Nah, you get pregnant, give birth, and then we'll talk. Soooo looks like that'll be never. But I'm sure u won't miss it. It's just so beneath you.
Sorry to interrupt such a lovely moment...
Travis, I've already said I don't think there's 1 moment/event that makes a person. It's something more than a cluster of cells but happens before birth (imo). But ppl have their own ideas and I let them.
Then I don't think you have a very good idea of what personhood entails if you don't know what the criterion for personhood is. Maybe you think that personhood is conferred when someone "feels like it"? waiting for any reason why you disagree w/ me
Just out of curiosity, Travis have you laid out your criteria for personhood and why they are non negotiable?
So far Ive only seen you accuse anyone who poses arguments for being pro-choice as murderers/advocates of murder. Alot to read here though.
Unique DNA is the start but a cluster of cells is not a person on its own. It has never had consciousness, agency, thought, or perception.
The existence of unique DNA is the only non-arbitrary criterion. We've seen some howlers. Personhood is technology, contingent on feeling...
Unconscious people don't have personhood? It's not murder if they're asleep or recovering out of a coma?
Do you vehemently oppose the killing of all animals and insects and plants and every single living organism on the planet with unique DNA? If that's all that's required for personhood then I hope you've never stepped on an ant. Because murder.
The criterion for establishing human personhood is unique human DNA.
Do you agree that people who are asleep have less personhood then those who are awake?
No. There's a difference between sleeping and not having yet developed the ability to be conscious.
Why is human personhood so much more important and valuable than ant personhood?
You said personhood depends on consciousness. Not conscious equals not a person then according to you then, right?
Ants and other animals by virtue of their being animals do not share the same moral status and rights conferred to human persons.
There's a difference between not yet having developed consciousness and being in an altered state of consciousness.
Humans are animals. Is a zygote more capable of any of the things that make humans 'special' than an insect is?
A six week old infant is less able to mentally function than an adult- does that mean that the fetus has less personhood? Do conscious animals have the same rights as humans?
The zygote by its DNA is something completely different than the insect
It's not about being less able to function, it's about being able to function at all.
You're making a distinction based on human vs not human, so think about what makes a human more valuable. Does a zygote possess those qualities?
Consciousness is a sliding scale sugar. You're telling me that "level of development" is your criterion- which is ultimately self defeating.
To be human is to be intrinsically valuable. No answer on the animal question?
I'm the one saying there's more to being a person than DNA & it's that little extra somethin' that sets us apart from other animals. A fertilized egg does not have it yet.
I'll pretend the 'sugar' was cuz you like me so much & not condescen
Couldn't resist alliteration. Your language alludes to moral and mental life, but as a criterion for personhood you must point at the creation of unique blueprints, not any arbitrarily selected stage of progress along that development.
You are wrong. It most def goes in stages and any woman whose been pregnant knows it. That's why Christians women can abort, because they know it's just a collection of cells. Unique? Yeah OK, but certainly not a baby.You are arguing from guesswork.
But any stage of development selected is going to be arbitrary. Did you decide your kids are still persons this morning or did you abort them with a kitchen knife in their sleep? Who is saying that the embryo is a baby? No. Person? Yes.
Person, no! Let me ask you. When you eat your scrambled eggs, do you say "I just ate a chicken"? Or do you know it's not a chicken? But it is a fertilized egg. Same thing. To thinking individuals, not reactionaries. Common sense. Not religion.
Wouldn't you tell us that it was a chicken if you "feel" like it was a chicken? Is the egg a distinct living being from the hen? Yes. http://shamelesspopery.com/the-chicken-and-egg-pro...
Are you going to care for kids who are already here? Do you want to pay more taxes to support free public education, support for unwed mothers, free child care, free all inclusive medical care for children and pregnant/recovering women?
Catherine, God said He knew Jeremiah before he was born so that blows your soul theory, doesn't it and Eric, I do not know what bible you study from if indeed you do and if you are a pastor you should read the rules for that. All my best.
That only brings up another can of worms. I no more believe that the bible is 'the word' of god; than I believe you have the right to force your harmful, narrow-minded and divisive views onto me. Expand your brain, and one more time - READ the ???
While I agree that everyone should be using birth control, it's not 100% effective. I've known multiple women who got preg using BC. They don't take emerg contraception b/c they don't know when theirs hasn't worked. Will always happen to some.
Guess who also knows how to get pregnant?Men.Guess who usually wants the sex,even if by force?Men.Guess who can have foolproof way of ending abortions?Men.Vasectomies as birth control.100% effective.Do it NOW.IF that's what this is about,wich it isnt
Heartless & worse. This question is VALID and based on EXPERIENCE with Christian peers and statistics. It is scary how small-minded and assuming so many of you are. What a crying shame that so many girls have to live with such ignorance and misog
What is a shame is so many kids having parents or teachers like you instead of bringing them up with morals and conscience. Parents who misbehave in front of their kids and show no good examples but have them having sex before they even become teens.
Based on the topic of this question, you would be referring to Christian parents raising their kids without morals or conscience? Every one of my Christian friends who chose abortion LIVED a full Christian life with their devoted parents.
The government does not 'encourage' people to have abortions; and most Americans are NOT against it. You've been listening to someone; and you need to be thinking for yourself. Try rereading the question, answers and responses again - and listen. :)
Oh yes, can't go a day without buying me some baby parts. Completely not for medical research that only researchers are allowed to buy, I just buy them for the giggles thanks to the abortions the gov isnt allowed to fund.
Saitire is useles isnt it..
Actually, the number of Americans who identify themselves as being neutral or not-religious is growing. I imagine that trend (documented by the Pew Foundation) comes from people turned off by the hateful stances of the rabidly religious right.
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There are a few places to get those statistics and they vary slightly. Anyone can do a search. It makes you wonder where Christian/Catholic churches are failing. They need to fix their own issues before trying to change anyone else's beliefs.
I read this and understand it to be a fairly accurate position: "Most mainline Protestant denominations have taken a formal position supporting a woman's right to have an abortion, under a variety of conditions."
No, Eric - this has been going on since the beginning, even before abortion was legalized. Why do you think the majority of women have aboritions? Because they fear what OTHER PEOPLE will think/do - usually their religious family or communities.
And a good part of portion of people getting abortions report being pressured into getting them too.
The only pressure would come from those who know she can't afford it, is not emotionally nor mentally ready, and looking out for the living persons welfare. You know, the already born woman, who takes a back seat to your intellectual musings.
Stop being anti-woman.
Travis, a woman who responds with more concern for the mother than an unborn fetus is not anti-woman. You made my point more clear - PRESSURE is why most women get them; and we are talking about Christian women who also have to live with guilt.
As if pressuring and even physically beating a woman to get her to kill her child is "pro-woman"... You should be ashamed...
Travis, you are confused. The point of this question is that women are AGAINST religous pressure/beatings. Imagine what things would be like if it was acceptable and even celebrated when an unwed woman announces her pregnancy - IMAGINE less abortions
And that's why Les said that women would only be pressured out of interest for her welfare... Please. Why can't you come out and just admit that it's really all about consequence free sex? And If you accidentally make a person- you'll just kill it...
Lol! Takes 2 to tango. As I said, 100% fool proof no abortion is vasectomy. When do we start?
Or we can teach the children that they aren't rutting animals in heat. But hey, consequence free sex right?
Thank you for proving my point again, Travis... Teach the 'rutting animals in heat' within YOUR religion to be more like you. The abortion statistics would FALL DRASTICALLY and immediately. The only 'time' it would take is for them to 'get it'.
You don't think that there is anything wrong with acting like a rutting animal in heat?
Part of the problem is that you are really good at seeing the point; then twisting it to back around to make it seem like my original point is ridiculous. These are classic responses. I really hope people can see that: straight answers are too hard.
Maybe, just maybe it's because your original point IS ridiculous... I think that you've caught a glimpse of that ever elusive truth... I've already pointed out that adherence to and the thing being adhered to are not the same thing.
If one is being smart and safe about things, no there isn't anything wrong with it. It's called a high sex drive, not everyone is able to 100% control that.
And it's the males that push for sex in the first place, given the testosterone. Snip snip! Voila, no abortion....just what you want, right?
Provided there was an absolute way to reverse a vasectomy, I don't see much of an issue with that honestly.
At the very least, it isn't as stupid as telling everyone not to have sex before marriage and expecting them to always adhere to that.
Yes,, and birth control fails. This is sure fire way no abortion. Time for these people to put their money where their mouths are. IF abortion is their problem...let's get at it!
Finally, man who gets it besides my dad!!!
You say that the state cannot enforce the law of a religion. Then why are murder and stealing illegal? It was God who gave the 10 commandments to Moses and the Jewish people, including "Thou shalt not kill," "Thou shalt not commit adultery," etc.
There were godsbefore that one. Read the code of Hammurabi. Just because you claim it does not make it right for everybody.My religion Hates guns and war. But I am subject to them both, DUE to religion!! Everyone has "god given right", except women!!
@Leslie McCowen: There is only one God--that is, only one Supreme Being who is the author of life. If women have God-given rights, then unborn babies also have God-given rights. It is the duty of government to protect the innocent.
No they don't. God gave women the Birth giving abilities. She comes first before the unborn! If she's ready and able, that fetus grows to life. If not, try again another time. Hate to tell u, but gvt kills innocents.They're called "collateral damage"
Would you support the "right" of parents to murder their children after they are born? The life of one innocent supersedes the "convenience" of another.
Here's what a famous talk host put to his audience once: suppose there was a burning building. You run in and see a test tube w fetus in it and next to it a child. U can only save one. Which would it be?
Make them a white and black child instead. Or an adult and an infant. Does whichever you choose not to save have less personhood? You're making the assumption that the choice is indicative of personhood.
Yes, exactly. I think already born are more important. And we have plenty of those here now who are hungry, cold, abused, lost. It's simply ego that demands more come in. 47 million in poverty u s a. Where is the tax free church???
White or black? Which one do you choose and therefore has more personhood? Being born or not is an arbitrary criterion for personhood.
Really? Being born is not a requirement to be a person? What strange philosophy is this?
Your criterion for personhood is what the location of something is?
No, the actual being. I do not equate a fertilized egg to a person. That takes nine months and a torturous journey through the womb. If you choose to say an egg=human, that fine. Don't you dare make laws on that crazy view!
Something is a person if it is "a [human?]being"? that seems circular. Still waiting on your criterion for personhood. Is it birth? That's an arbitrary criterion based upon location.
I'm just going to say it, and I hope your male ego can take it. When a woman says so, that's when. Sorry god made it that way, just the way it is. And also it's impertinent of you to think you know better than god. I trust her.
So a woman can deny the personhood of a fetus indefinitely and "abort" a 2 year old child because she doesn't think that the child is a person? Doesn't that seem wrong? If you're so smart why can't you produce a salient criterion for personhood?
Not necessary. Any idiot knows a 3 year old is a child. A 2 week old fetus, not so much. But I do know the women who is pregnant is 100% person, and as its her body, holds all the cards here. Sorry! Take it up w god.
"I just FEEL when they have personhood" is a terrible criterion then. By the same logic not feeling that the Jews were people makes killing them permissible. Why don't you give me an actual criterion instead of waffling about?
Personally I think it IS smart to acknowledge that we have no simple answer regarding when a person becomes a person as we know it. It's a highly debated issue among the best minds in the world. Pretending you know the answer doesn't make you smart.
So far you have compared abortion with slavery and the holocaust. There is nothing more to say. Oh, except lovely world we will have when women are enslaved to your religion, and all the Muslim's are blown to smithereens. Good luck in your world.
So failing to produce a criterion except her feelings, she bows out. Great.
@A You're saying that my criterion is wrong so we are on equal footing at least. Your criterion is arbitrary and based on technology.
No Einstein, her feeling is body knowledge. Maybe men dont have it, I don't know. But women do. There comes a point when it's more than a collection of cells. The church can't tell you, nor a book. The intellectual exercise is MOOT. It's nature.
So what criterion do we base the laws on? The mothers arbitrary feelings? Maybe another mother feels that personhood begins at conception- does her feeling override your own? Only one of you can be right after all.
Good question - what criterion should we base laws on? Fundamental Christian Ideals? No thanks - been there, done that. If you are concerned about unborn babies dying; fix the issues in your churches that leave so many women vulnerable to sinfulsex.
Except this isn't an exclusively religious position. You can be secular pro-life. Perhaps if the culture didn't treat sex as an entitlement that every person should be able to have whenever and wherever on any terms they like...
Perhaps... all that dang FREEDOM, right?! There are secular pro-lifers and christian pro-choicers, both. They ALL waste time fighting about this symptom of society instead of treating issue at the root: misogyny, low-self esteem, misinformation, etc.
Freedom to murder your child? I think you need to review what symptoms and roots are. Still waiting on your criterion for personhood.
Stone. Reread the question and every answer and response, since. Get out of your own mind; and experience the opinions of others.
Birth control is free and anyone too stupid to use it should not make it right with two wrongs. It is ridiculous today to have to have an abortion. They have the morning after pill and much more than I know about I am sure.
Polly, you are another one who seriously needs to read the article because you have missed the point from the beginning and you keep missing it: http://hub.me/ak9PR
Your article? you call that a hub page? What a joke. What a narcissist you are, really, one must read your opinionated BS HP before voicing their own educated opinion? Controlaholic is another word that comes to mind, delete when u r shown wrong.
What happened to re posting your answer Tsad and actually showing her to be wrong?
Or is the name calling and disrespect easier?
BC is def not free for everyone. Plus not everyone uses it correctly due to lack of sex ed & if they don't realize it they're not going to be taking a morning after pill. BC fails even when used correctly as well.
I say bombing it to death, burning it with white phosphorus disfiguring it with depleted uranium is heartless.And by it, I mean a real living breathing thinking human, not a fetus being formed. Women have rights-your approval not necessary, nor asked
Women who claim a faith are genuing enough to answer the question specifically. You have obviously been taught this moral judgement well. No one here condones killing a developing baby - NO ONE.
Women have rights--but so do the unborn. We are not talking about bombing, so don't go there. Stay on topic. Keep telling yourself that a fetus is not a baby.
And keep telling yourself that a woman is nothing more than an incubator, whose own life is not considered in the equation.
Who is trying to depersonalize women into being "incubators"? It seems to me that you're trying to dehumanize the unborn so as to make murder seem like something other than murder.
Now your getting it! Removing a fetus is not murder. Freezing a child to death for lack of electricity is.
If the fetus is a person then it is murder. No way around it.
Who says it's a person?
What are your criterion for determining personhood? The reasonable non-arbitrary criterion point to conception.
I know it when I feel it. And it takes a while. Just ask women have done all thru out time....you should be asking when did abortion become a crime? Because god does it all the time. So how bad can it be? Really. Use some sense, not wild ideology.
So if you don't "feel" like your 2 year old child is a person then she isn't? Let's try to actually establish a criterion rather than relying on emotion.
It's not emotion, it's nature. I've had 3 pregnancies. I just knew. And I would love to know why god abortion(nature) is accepted, but woman doing it is a crime. Female cats let born kittens die if they not right.Males stay out of it. Learn something
Fallacy of appeal to nature. Anecdotal fallacy. You can't give me a solid criterion for personhood upon which the law should be based?
Abortion is a natural occurrence. It happens all the time, with or without the intervention of man. The fallacy IS bringing your laws into it. It's a private matter, not an exercise in crime and punishment. When do we make war illegal? I'd be for it!
You're right, Travis - just because something is 'natural' doesn't necessarily mean that it is good. Pro-choice folks do not believe that abortion is murder. The fallicy is you forcing your beliefs onto us via a law designed to impose those beliefs.
Glad to hear you agree. But you're pretending that you aren't forcing your view either. If the official position is that abortion is legal, then the official position is that the fetus isn't a person. You're advocating your view too.
Yes, and you'll notice why I am within my question: shrill, hysterical Christians accusing me of murdering babies - and wanting an OLD, needed law changed - while their religion contributes to the most 'baby deaths'. Fix Christianity: less abortions
So you admit that you're forcing your view too, fantastic. I already pointed out that the problem is nominal adherence to Christianity- rather than Christianity itself.
I'm still waiting on your criterion for personhood...
I don't need criteria for 'personhood'. I simply do not believe that the soul of an unborn baby enters the body until after 3 months - sometimes long after. Many people believe something similar. Your belief should not supercede laws for choice.
then you don't know what a person is. 3 months is an arbitrary criterion. Why not 5 years after birth? Your belief should not supersede basic human rights. "Don't believe that slavery is moral? Don't own slaves then" that's the logic of your argument
To a certain extent that is true. There are still parts of the world that have slaves and I can't do anything about it. The US fought a civil war over that issue with the Christian ideal that slavery was ordained by god on the frontlines. They lost.
Travis, do you think a 13 year old girl who has been brutally raped should have to carry a child to term?
Lol, as if abolitionism wasn't motivated by Christianity. Still arbitrary criterion. Still forcing your view.
Is it the baby's fault that they were conceived under those circumstances? I'd be willing to concede abortion for rape for now
Nope. I am done talking to you, Travis. YOU are EXACTLY the type of person that I wrote this post for. I know many good Christians; and most don't realize the affects their unbalanced views have on others - and can change. People like you are stone.
says the woman who supports killing children if it's convenient to the parents and can't even come up with a criterion for personhood.
History will remember you as an advocate for mass murder. I'm sorry.
Choice is choice. We all live by and answer for our choices. It's odd that you can't live with that. Because you should look on my twitter feed. All the death going on in Yemen, Syria, Palestine. But thing that concerns you is women! Jealous? Or what
Well in this day and age, people value a fertilized egg,, and could care less for the already born. Poverty, war, indifference, hatred, intolerance...all done in the name of god.
1st set of statistics in the question is all women who consider themselves to be affiliated with a religion; the 2nd set is women who actively attend church - yes, there is a difference. So, only a few 'devout' Christians should make laws for us all?
No way. Their brand of do what we say not what we do is defaming the name of their god. They never practice what they preach. Only like telling others what to do. Pay taxes, then spout orders!
Sin is sin, regardless of who commits it. We are all sinners. That's not an excuse for sin, but the reality of it.
Another good point. Fix your religion - THEN you can start on the rest of the world. Because your definition of 'sin' and my definition do not agree - not even sort of. IE: *I* consider people like you to be 'evil' - if there is such a thing.
Here's a thought: Maybe it's some of the adherents and not the thing that they are supposed to adhere to... The mass murder advocate calling the person against mass-murder "evil" is the cherry on top of this hypocrisy sundae.
I've been through this situation with my friends - too many of them. I'm not evil. You are evil for your harmful dogma and not listening to the truth I am trying to get across to you about WHY Christians choose abortion so often. It's heartbreaking.
Yes, its awful the place religion puts women in. Always subjugated. Always lesser than. Oh sure--they love their mommas, but ONLY as momma. What about before they were momma? What about their soul-desires-dreams? Caretaker and help-meet is role.OBEY.
Oh, bravo! Its so true. And men are the ones pushing sex. We all know this! It's the hormones:NATURE.This whole issue is the result of the perversion of Puritanism. Puritanism is un-NATURAL and results in twisted, messed up world of so-called values.
Marc,did you know actual divorce rate has never gotten close to 50%.Those who attend church regularly have significantly lower divorce rate than those who don’t.http://www.shaunti.com/book/good-news-marriage/#st... If LMCsays true,it's not
Sure, if you take EVERY married couple today - older people have a much higher success rate and get to be counted within recent married couples. I know FAR more people that are divorced/remarried than not. This book was written by a Christian.
You think because a well respected researcher who dispels your unfounded beliefs with facts is a Christian she's what?a liar?http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-divorce-rate... UmightConcentrate on facts instead of ur prejudice,not becomming
I put it this way - it doesn't matter what the number are, it happens a LOT. We moved around to different churches when I was young; and most of my religious celebrities are now divorced (Amy Grant, Sandy Patti) along with FOUR former pastors.
Oh come now, we all know X tians walk on water, like JC. They can do whatever, ask forgiveness and it's over. Guns and god--the utter disconnect.Their hero lady who refused to marry gay people is a fine example.Marriage so sacred, she did it 4 times!
So numbers don't matter, only your uninformed opinion?So the numbers you gave in your question don't matter?I think you think they do because you deleted my answer to your Q&A which destroyed your Q&A statistics.You are not an objective criti
No, I deleted your answer because it didn't belong in here as many of them don't. Christians keep dancing around the integrity of their religion and its harmful affects on its own people instead of responding to this question. My experiences R valid.
Why didn't it belong when I addressed everything in your Q?U deleted it because frankly you can dish it out but YOU can't take it. If you could you'd have left it and rebutted, but you know u can't credibly respond to my answer to your Q&A
Maybe U addressed everything, but I didn't get that far - you were SO insulting to me to start. WHY should I read it all? REread this question & why I posted it - my responses are also more compassionate. Your kind can dish it out and not take it
Your ilk always deletes the answer that exposes u so no one can see it &then make up excuses why you did.First u say"I deleted your answer because it didn't belong here"then pressed u revert to" u were SO insulting" when ur the insulting one.
Oh grow up and face the music. Try again (AFTER actually reading through the question & responses so that you know what you are actually responding to) without being so personally insulting - if you can.
Tit for tat my dear, you ask a question painting Christians as ignorant hypocrits accusing them of practicing abortion against their faith conflating stats about religious affiliation with real Christianity and u don't see that as insulting?
Like I said... Actually READ the question and ALL of my responses. You will SEE that this is based on my EXPERIENCES with Christian friends and living within Christian communities, myself. LISTEN to the story and STOP being so typically defensive.
You r so transparent,if that were really true then why did you make the premise of your Q&A guttmacher?Now u say ur personal anecdotal experience is your premise?I destroyed your argument either way,undelete my answer&all will see I'm right
This is my take. A premise based on lies. So get mad at Guttmacher not us.
Intelligent people dont take someones personal experience only as gospel when a point is trying to be made
One of the responses also said the subject of the question barely happens, which is where the personal exp came in to begin with
Yes, thank you Link... Personal experiences on TOP of statistics were a very good premise for this question. I really don't understand why you seem so afraid to read this stuff. Tsad. If you read it and it looks like lies - THEN you can judge me.
I personally see no immediate reason why a non profit organization thats half a century old would feel the need to lie bout Christian abortions only. Doesnt particularly serve a purpose on their part
But if theres evidence to the contrary, Ill look.
Who said anything about lying?You people are so lost in your egos it's hilarious My Answer demonstrated exactly how misfit's premise is false not that guttmaker lied.Misfit knows,that's why she deleted my answer without which y'all r blabbering
Then re post why its false and quit complaining about it.
Well, that's what I would say if I thought you could do so without any insults or rude behavior. I'll take a snapshot of it if you do though and post it as my own answer :D
There is no option to undelete an answer - I wish I could restore it, now. It was a long-winded, numbered thing that started with two incredibly insulting paragraphs. I would imagine that if you didn't save it; it is difficult to rewrite, huh Tsad?
I saved&be glad to post it if you can be trusted to not delete it.If you remember it started with"..before you accuse me...of a personal attack so you can justify deleting my answer...let me explain YOUR ignorance" and u deleted it as predicted..
You can help the HubPages community highlight top quality content by ranking this answer up or down.
From 'Nicodemus Comes to Jesus in the Night' (1/4 way down) thru next 12 headings in my 1st spotlight article, the harmful view of the pagan church's 'salvation' concept within Christianity is debunked. Reason for God's pagan 'bridge' toward end.
That was the country that I had statistics for - only reason. I am definitely concerned about women's rights around the globe. :)
Less than half of Christian denominations consider an abortion in all circumstances to be sinful. Even the Episcopal and Lutheran doctrines allow for it when appropriate.
Sure, but they are making laws that force us to go by their beliefs, too. 231 of them since 2010. Keep your beliefs in church and home, not government!
What laws and where? Abortion is legal, although some states do not allow for partial birth abortion, a practice which most M.D.'s wil not perform anyway, for a variety of reasons.
...so if you're daughter got pregnant before marriage by a guy she doesn't love, it wouldn't bother you at all? And you can confirm that all other religious households wouldn't be bothered if it happened to them?
Gonna call BS ahead of time...
What does 231 mean exactly? There are 50 states and some territories. Are you suggesting that legislatures enacted roughly 4.7 laws per state about abortions.
I'm on phone, can't copy, but just google "abortion restrictions since 2010". It actually started in 2000. Operation Rescue told Bush he owed them for putting him in office. Religious right not above bribery. Elected Bush, removed Howard Stern.
They sure do not list them, they just make a claim to further their agenda -- Guttmacher Institute
Women's rights Organization
The writing on this does not delineate. One would need formal legislative analysis training to make sense of it.
Guttmacher states: "The reasons most frequently cited were that having a child would interfere with a woman's education, work or ability to care for dependents (74%); that she could not afford a baby (73%); that she did not want to be a single mother
Read the vanishing abortion clinic, Bloomberg. And savvy, please tell me why this medical procedure a woman wants is any of your business? Its been deemed a right under the constitution, and we used to be protected under 4th amendment.not youbusiness
Eric, these are the current laws: http://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/spib_O...
Leslie, are you saying that abortion is none of my business? What an odd thing to say. Also, I don't recall making any judgments. I've simply stated some facts
That's exactly what I'm saying. It's not your business unless you want one, and then good luck getting one, depending on where you live. It's a medical procedure, wholly between woman and doctor. No church allowed.
It is the business of nations, actually. You act like you're trying to get an abortion right now and you can't find a clinic. Just look at China---13 million abortions per year has backfired, and now they're having serious financial problems.
You forget they forced people to have abortions.1 child rule policy.Some people here want to force women to give birth. 2 sides of same coin.And China had economic reasons for it.Here, it's ideology. We are multi-nation/religion.Must be secular gvt.
China's economic problems are the result of the abortions. Not enough young people to work and to create new innovations. No nation should become blasé about abortion & no one is forcing women not to have abortions in this country.
Hahaha. Have this baby you don't want so that someday they can be innovative and stimulate our economy. Brilliant. Can't say I've ever heard that one before.
Sorry nice lady. I was born after my my mom came to my Dad (a doctor) for an abortion. I ain't perfect but I have four perfect children. Yes breathing life into this world is a wonderful thing. And being adopted I can attest to it.
savvydating, as a woman, HOW can you be so out-of-touch and comprised of 'wishful thinking'? 'Affiliated' religious women include teens and single daughters of Christan fanatics - they are not so far removed from you and are in your sights every day.
Woman can't control their bodies then yes they should have to give birth if it does not endanger their lives. There are waiting lists wanting these precious little babies. They deserve that...at least.
Again, REread the question... This is not the same debate about abortion that we've always had. The question is NOT whether abortion should be legal or illegal. It is WHY do so many women who believe life happens at conception chose abortion?
Catherine, I have simply stated some plain facts here. If you take issue with facts, that is your perogative. If you want to target Christians, that is also your choice. If I see that someone has construed the truth, I'll correct it.
Savvy, if your daughter got pregnant before marriage by a guy she doesn't love, would you be bothered by it?
If you aren't, can you confirm all other religious households would not be bothered by it either and therefore say shame is rare?
Facts? No one is pushing women to have abortions in this country. Yes, you are right. They are trying to force women to give birth against their will. That is what I'm fighting. Self-preservation in the face of religious dogma and rule.
Link, that is why people should wait for marriage to have sex. Yes, you should be forced to give birth. You had sex, now take responsibility.
Though that would also apply to rape victims, which may constitute as victim blaming (to pregnant children as well), that isn't the question i asked...
Aime, abortion is no laughing matter. I'm sorry you find it so funny. China's financial problems are the result of their 1-child policy.
What if the married couple doesn't want kids? Signing a piece of paper doesn't make one capable of caring for an unwanted child, not to mention it's easy enough to get a divorce these days, it's no guarantee that both parents step up/stick around.
Link, there's something called adoption. Aime, if a couple does not want kids, they need to use birth control.
savvy-China set a limit on # of children. That's not happening here. Different situation altogether & I'm not laughing at abortion, I'm laughing at the notion that ppl should be forced to have kids "for the nation"
Loli- bc isn't 100% effective
So women, as well as children, who are raped and impregnated should be forced to have the baby because that's the responsible thing to do for having sex?
It's difficult to wrap my mind around that actual women are advocating this...its usually men.
Savvy, you didn't state 'facts' you stated your erroneous perception - and that is SO wrong and harmful for you to do. Your attitude combined with shame is one of the reasons why Christian girls HIDE this 'sin' in the first place. Wake up!!
Our soul teaches us when we are doing wrong that is why there is shame which is a good thing because after awhile many (like many here) block this out just like people with no conscience,cold hearted, whatever you call it. Some call it rights.
Yes, that is part of this question, aside from why Christian women use abortion the most - why do Christians feel such a need to judge when Jesus commanded you NOT to do so? Who do you think you are calling me cold-hearted and without conscience?!!
I stated facts. Period. The issue here is that some want to defend the destruction of a fetus and blame it on the 95% of the population who might be affiliated with a religion, as if that makes the other 5% more righteous for aborting their babies.
That is not the issue at all. The issue is Christians trying to tell me what to do in my private life, against the Constitution, liberty and just plain respect. You have every right to your beliefs, you have zero right to force them on me. Simple.
savvy, I think you are confused. Opinions are not facts. I gave a source for real statistics - where are you getting your 'facts' from? Read this and tell me that this stuff does not happen in your church. http://hub.me/ak9PR
The woman has emotional scars because Christians insist that she has done something wrong and make her feel guilty. That religion runs on guilt, it is such a crying shame. But, WHY do Christan women who believe like you CHOOSE abortion? That is the ?
There are nearly 400,000 kids in foster care already in the US alone, how about we work on giving those kids a home first, eh?
Quakers (American Friends Service Committee); Lutheran Church in America; Presbyterian Church; Reorganized LDS; Unitarian Universalist; United Church of Christ; United Methodist Church; the Episcopal Church; the Christian Church and more
I disagree Catherine. Christians don't make her feel guilty. If a woman feels guilty it's because she killed her baby.
My daughter lost 2 fetus to ectopic pregnancy. She did not abort, god did. Is god a murderer? Obviously so. Or is god just stupid for giving woman child birthing abilities?
Leslie, I lost a set of twins in a miscarriage - and you're right. Should we be angry at 'God' for 'murdering' our babies? That is a very good point. I bet Christians have a perfectly logical explanation for it. I, for one, can't wait to hear it.
Sorry to hear that Catherine. My daughter had a hard time w it. Life is not for the faint of heart. And Christians really have no answer for anything. They can only be responsible for themselves, and lead by example. Actions, not words.
Thanks. I had a hard time, too - was depressed for months, despite my views. Abortion is often a hard choice because it is made to end a SWEET yet overwhelming life commitment before it begins. But, that is the choice many make for holy wrong reasons
I don't ever think it's a wrong reason. It's her life. No one else has to live it, why does anyone think they have the right to tell her anything?? It's egotistical GALL. I'll fight anyone on this issue, Pope himself! Snip the peepee if care so much!
You missed my point because there is only so much room. I meant that Most Christan women choose abortion for the 'wrong holy reasons' - guilt, shame, rejection, etc. 'Regular' women make the choice for themselves without as much pressurized judgement
Oh yes.That's even sadder.I hate that so many women go through life with their head down.This is flipping 2016. I cannot BELIEVE we are still fighting this fight.It's medieval.Meanwhile, it's become normal for men to take a pill so they can have sex!
No one has responded to this part of the question... Is 'God' a murder when a woman miscarries a baby? Should we be angry with the Almighty when this happens? Some people believe this sometimes happens because the BABY is making a choice...
Define murder and then answer me whether or not people have rights claims on God. Welcome to living in a fallen world.
Nice dodge. I'll bet hundreds of people starved to death this day. Some of disease. Many through war. Freezing to death in Gaza--with your help. Yet, you focus on fetus in the womb.....odd that.
Yes, welcome to living in a fallen world where we don't all believe like you. Answer the question straighforward and honestly without trying to incite a riot - or I will start deleting more of them.
Yes, those decisions can (and maybe should) be made after the child is actually born. This question asks: Why don't Christian women do that? Why do so many choose abortion instead of giving birth based on their beliefs? People should be concerned it.
Because they CHOSE to for their own specific, reasonable, personal, private reason. It's called "Pro-choice"...Not, "Give us a reason before we judge you." What difference should that make to you? You're Shadrack, not God.
Well put Paula. Dang it I wish they had the gift of judgment over others. I would be first in line raising my hand - chose me. But they don't and I cannot. Life is tough all around.
We don't have to judge murder Eric it has already been judged & called wrong & I am supposing your bible has the ten commandments? To each his own is nowhere in the bible that so many of you love to live by & it will be a sad day answerin
So how can u support Israel, pollyanalana? They allow abortion on demand for anyone 19-33, and the state pays for it. Shouldn't you condemn them, too?
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