Forgive me all hubbers out there, I want to ask this same question on Christianity being a violent religion, as was put forward on Islam by one of the hubbers to see the kind of reactions coming through.
When there is no issue of race, money, political oppression --- religion becomes the issue of conflict. Faith is dangerous. Christ's religion, unfortunately, has caused disputes, though its ideals are lofty. But its people who follow religion, not some mythical character, like Jesus Christ.
"Listen to Me," said Jesus. "What you are about to see and hear is true. Take heed you ministers of the gospel, for these are faithful and true sayings. Awake, evangelists, preachers, and teachers of My Word, all of you who are called to preach the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. If you are sinning, repent or you will likewise perish."
We walked up to within fifteen feet of this activity. I saw small dark-clothed figures marching around a boxlike object. Upon closer examination, I saw that the box was a coffin and the figures marching around it were demons. It was a real coffin, and there were twelve demons marching around it. As they marched, they were chanting and laughing. Each one had a sharp spear in his hand, which he kept thrusting into the coffin through small openings that lined the outside.
There was a feeling of great fear in the air, and I trembled at the sight before me. Jesus knew my thoughts, for He said, "Child, there are many souls in torment here, and there are many different types of torment for these souls. There is greater punishment for those who once preached the gospel and went back into sin, or for those who would not obey the call of God for their lives. "
I heard a cry so desperate that it filled my heart with despair. "No hope, no hope!" he called. The hopeless cry came from the coffin. It was an endless wail of regret.
"God, how awful!" I said.
"Come," said Jesus, "let's go closer." With that, He walked up to the coffin and looked inside. I followed and also looked in. It appeared that the evil spirits could not see us. A dirty-gray mist filled the inside of the coffin. It was the soul of a man. As I watched, the demons pushed their spears into the soul of the man in the coffin.
I will never forget the suffering of this soul. I cried to Jesus, "Let him out, Lord; let him out."
The torment of his soul was such a terrible sight. If only he could get free. I pulled at Jesus' hand and begged Him to let the man out of the coffin.
Jesus said, "My child, peace, be still."
As Jesus spoke, the man saw us. He said, "Lord, Lord, let me out. Have mercy." I looked down and saw a bloody mess. Before my eyes was a soul. Inside the soul was a human heart, and blood spurted from it. The thrusting of the spears were literally piercing his heart. "I will serve You now, Lord." He begged, "Please let me out." I knew that this man felt every
spear that pierced his heart. "Day and night, he is tormented," the Lord said. "He was put here by Satan, and it is Satan who torments him."
The man cried, "Lord, I will now preach the true gospel. I will tell about sin and hell. But please help me out of here."
Jesus said, "This man was a preacher of the Word of God. There was a time when he served Me with all his heart and led many people to salvation. Some of his converts are still serving Me today, many years later. The lust of the flesh and the deceitfulness of riches led him astray.
He let Satan gain the rule over him. He had a big church, a fine car, a large
income. He began to steal from the church offerings. He began to teach lies. He spoke mostly half-lies and half-truths. He would not let Me correct him. I sent My messengers to him to tell him to repent and preach the truth, but he loved the pleasures of this life more than the life of God. He knew not to teach or preach any other doctrine except the truth as revealed in the Bible. But before he died, he said the Holy Ghost baptism was a lie and that those who claimed to have the Holy Ghost were hypocrites. He said you could be a drunkard and get to heaven, even without repentance.
"He said God would not send anyone to hell -that God was too good to do that. He caused many good people to fall from the grace of the Lord. He even said that he did not need Me, for he was like a god. He went so far as to hold seminars to teach this false doctrine. He trampled My Holy Word under his feet. Yet, I continued to love him. "My child, it is better to have never known Me than to know Me and turn back from serving Me," said the Lord.
"If only he had listened to You, Lord!" I cried. "If only he had cared about his soul and the souls of others. "
"He did not listen to Me. When I called he would not hear Me. He loved the easy life. I called and called him to repentance, but he would not come back to Me. One day he was killed and came immediately here. Now Satan torments him for having once preached My Word and saved souls for My kingdom. This is his torment."
I watched the demons as they continued to march around and around the coffin. The man's heart beat and real blood ran from it. I will never forget his cries of pain and sorrow. Jesus looked at the man in the coffin with great compassion and said, "The blood of many lost souls are upon this man's hands. Many of them are in torment here right now." With sorrowful hearts, Jesus and I walked on.
As we left, I saw another group of demons coming up to the coffin. They were about three feet high, dressed in black clothes, with black hoods over their faces. They were taking shifts tormenting this soul.
I thought of how pride in all of us at times makes us unwilling to admit mistakes and ask for forgiveness. We refuse to repent and humble ourselves, and we go on as if we alone were ever right. But listen, soul, hell is real. Please do not go to that place.
Then Jesus showed me a giant clock, stretched out across the whole world. And I heard it ticking. The hour hand was nearing the twelve o'clock position, and the minute hand raced around until it stopped at three minutes before twelve. Stealthily the minute hand moved toward the hour. As it moved, the ticking became louder and louder until it seemed to fill the whole earth.
God spoke like a trumpet, and His voice sounded like many waters. "Listen and hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches," He said. "Be ready, for at a time you think not, I will come again. I hear the clock striking. It is twelve o'clock. The Bridegroom has come for His bride."
Are you ready for Christ's coming, my friend? Or will you be like those who say, "Not today, Lord?" Will you call upon Him and be saved? Will you give your heart to Him today?
Remember, Jesus can and will save you from all evil if you call on Him today, and repent. Pray for your family and your loved ones that they will come to Christ before it is too late. Listen as Jesus says, "I will protect you from evil. I will keep you in all your ways. I will save you. I will save your loved ones. Call upon Me today and live. " With many tears, I pray that all of you who read this book will realize the truth before it is too late.
Hell is for eternity. I am trying to the best of my ability to reveal all I saw and heard. I know these things are true. As you read the remainder of this book, I pray that you will repent and take Jesus Christ as your personal Savior.
I heard the Lord say, "It is time to go. We shall return again tomorrow."
(Excerpt from the book:" A Divine Revelation of Hell" by Mary K. Baxter)
Anytime people begin to believe in any unseen being more than we believe in ourselves and each other violence will come. Religion is the excuse for all bad and the direction for all good by those who believe.
Humanity is, by it's nature, violent. As such violence is pervasive in human society. Regardless of whether violence is part of a particular creed or not, it will be committed by people. Some of those people may be Christian. But religion is just one of the ways people rationalise violence.
People would be violent without Christianity and without religion. They would just rationalise in a different way. In fact they already do. Violence has been committed in the name of democracy, fascism, freedom, capitalism, communism, honour etc.
These are all ways human beings rationalise violence, and we must rationalise it because we are complex, self-aware creatures. The knowledge that violence is an animalistic behaviour that originates from our genetically inherited tendency to compete for resources, is damaging to our self image. So we cover up that truth in layers of rationalisation, as a defence mechanism.
No, I don't think Christianity is a violent religion. I think human beings are a violent species. Christianity (like politics and other religions) is just another way to rationalise animalistic behaviour, so we don't feel bad about ourselves.
As an atheist, I don't think any religion is inherently violent, even Islam. The Bible has a lot of passages that say that certain people, if they do certain things, should be put to death, but most sane people don't obey those commandments. The problem is when someone believes that their holy book, or their interpretation of it, is infallible, and not capable of being wrong.
Most religions have a history of violence, the question is are they currently violent. Christians? Not even close.
Timothy McVeigh, the Hutaree Militia, the Christian Identity movement, the KKK, all are Christian and violent, or at least potentially violent. Then there are the abortion clinic bombings and shootings.
These are, of course, tiny minorities of Christianity. But the reason why Christianity isn't more violent is because Christianity, and Christians, are fairly well-off in the world.
Alright, that's probably a few thousand fringe extremists to sully the reputations of two Billion Christians.
On the other hand we have seen in the past few decades Islamic violence on a much larger scale.
There is no comparison to modern day violence in Christianity versus Islam. This map only shows their violent actions whereas several surveys have shown that over half of the residents in Islamic countries such as Jordan, Pakistan, and Turkey favor the idea of suicide bombers paying a visit to America.
Do you have a source for these surveys? Even if they were true, what does that tell us? It is probably parenthetical that the respondents were Muslim. What do American Muslims think? What do the people in Jordan, Pakistan and Turkey have in common? Relative powerlessness and feelings of marginalization. Terrorism is a tool of the powerless. The Christian groups I mentioned (I think McVeigh was in Christian Identity) also feel powerless.
The real point I was trying to make is when people hold irrational beliefs that they feel cannot be wrong - not just that their ideas are not wrong, but incapable of being wrong - there is the potential for violence. Look at the Hutarees. How many of them were lawyers, doctors, etc.? People with real skin in the game. None. They were on the fringes of society, marginalized and powerless.
You are absolutely right. Islam has committed more acts of violence recently than Christianity, but that doesn't change what I've said.
You are right that people who hold to irrational beliefs tend feel so marginalized and powerless that they are brought to the point of justifying committing acts of senseless violence, (when the reality is quite the contrary).
I find it interesting that the one group who holds to the irrational belief of non belief has the worst possible record of senseless violence and murder in the shortest amount of time. It's also kind of ironic since atheists are usually the ones who accuse others of holding to irrational beliefs when they hold the highest body count.
Athiests? Are you refering to Communists, even thought just about everyone was Orthadox Russian (Christian) or Chinese anamist. How about the Carholics who killed just about every American? Jew/ Muslim in Spain? The Crusades? Hell, each other during the Crusades. Protestants in New England? The Philipines? At some point it isnt religion, or lack of. Some people just want to kill each other for gain, and God/Allah/Yaweh is an easy excuse when you meed to rally the troops. That or the Gulag.
I'm sorry maybe I misunderstood you. Are you saying that the Russian Orthodox church was in charge of the millions of murders that occurred under the banner of communism? If so, are you not aware that the communists used the churches against their people to sell them out to their own government?
Perhaps you should read this,
So what churches did Joseph Stalin, Vladimir Lenin, Pol Pot, Che Guevara, and Mao Tse Tung belong to?
I've heard this argument many times, and it's just not true. Regardless of whether this dictator or that was an atheist or worshipped JR "Bob" Dobbs, they didn't commit their crimes in the name of atheism. Stalin, Lenin and Che all had mustaches, too.
And I've heard the same tired arguments that a few of the religious people who are violent have some unique ability to cause violence and spread hatred when it is blatantly obvious that every person in the world has the exact same potential regardless of their religious beliefs or social disposition. Stalin, Lenin, and Che also believed that there would be no consequences in this life or the next for their actions hence they were unhinged in their capacity to murder.
But now when God says something like "thou shalt not kill", (which is supposed to be an obvious no no in the nature of man), I tend to think that unless such rules are put into place by a higher authority that people would be more inclined to go forward with such a despicable act. Take abortion for example. No other animal in nature aborts it's fetus except for humans.
LOL! And, you know that how?
That's what got us into trouble in the first place.
And, there are things animals do that we do not. So what?
Che was hardly "unhinged," Stalin had trained to be a priest, and Lenin's parents were Orthodox & Lutheran, though he wasn't religious, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to assume that they foresaw no consequences. But Lenin was also not a mass murderer. Stalin was a paranoid schizophrenic. But like I said, that's irrelevant.
How many criminals, including murderers. believe in God? And believed before their crimes? The Pew Forum has some answers:
http://www.pewforum.org/Government/reli … isons.aspx
The physicist Steven Weinberg said that regardless of religion you will have" good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things." However, "for good people to do evil things, it takes religion."
Yes because in the amoral realm of atheism there is no good or bad becuase there is no belief in eternal conciquences. Only situational, nonlinear, moral reletivism. No rules set in stone means there is no need to fear retribution. So Stalin, Che, and Mao, can murder as many people as they want and they only get to die once.
Lenin was responsible for the "red terror", ideology which lead to murder. And I guess Stalin gets a pass because you diagnosed him with schitzophrenia.
You're wrong to assume that atheism is amoral. We get our morals from others sources than religion. Society (of which religion is a part) shapes our morals, as well as evolution. Nurturing and cooperation are traits bred into us by evolution, and are routinely observed in other animals. Did your parents (or you, if you are a parent) ever say "Because I said so"? Not a very satisfying answer to why you should or should not do something, is it?
But more to your point about dictators, that just goes to show how dangerous irrational belief can be. All them, whether they were atheists or not, shared beliefs in irrational ideas. And that, more than any fear or divine retribution, drove their acts. At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, I will point out that Hitler was a believer. (And that's also irrelevant) Anders Breivik was a devout Christian, but believed he would be rewarded in the afterlife for his mass murder in Norway. Again, more irrational belief.
But let me ask you this: do you only behave because you fear retribution? From God, the gov't, your spouse/partner, etc.? It's pretty sad if fear is the only thing driving your moral behavior. I don't cheat on my wife because I love and respect her, not because a book says not to covet my neighbor's wife or his ass.
Of course its a violent religion they are constantly strapping bombs to themselves and blowing things up.
Is the Pope Catholic?
The stone and bronze-age superstition is rabidly anti-freedom, anti-responsibility, and anti-female.
Christianity, like any other bad ideology such as communism, removes the human factor and places absolute commands and laws that contradict that human factor, teaching it's followers to act immoral and unethical upon delivery and deployment of those commands and laws.
Sometimes those commands and laws can provide a positive outcome just as they provide a negative result.
Christianity, for example, fabricates lies such as all humans are born sinners, are evil and violent by nature when in fact we are very much compassionate and altruistic by nature. It is the bad ideologies that cause us to act that way against our natural evolved tendency to be moral and ethical.
compassionate and altruistic by nature? Lets look back over history. In Abrahams day travel was simply a thing one did not do because death loomed for many reasons, some of them human. Lets quickly skip through history and remember all the wars, from Genghis Khan upward, lets look at the poor and starving in the world, even north america, lets look at marketing and how deceptive it is and include 'planned obsolescence', lets look at how employees are treated in the workplace and the minimum wage. Lets look at third world countries and examine their lifestyle. Lets research divorce, murders, and bullying in the school ground. Then finally lets us remember why we have a police system. Lets recall frivolous acts of violence at sporting events, then lets read the newspapers from all around. Lets go to new york where people don't say hi to each other passing on the sidewalks and lets remember all the protests against governments from the 60s and recall the manipulations of the rich and the usage of population as fodder and cattle and then lets reassess our evaluation that claim people are altruistic and compassionate. To a certain degree yes, it is sometimes easy to get a hello on the street or to watch people gather together to put out a house fire and who wouldn't want to assist an injured animal, but this does not make human kind incapable of sinning. We really have to admit that in the final analysis the bulk of the criteria screams out that our natural tendancy is "me first and everyone else after me."
Well said. Thomas Hobbs once described the life of men as "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short." Since the dawn of time men have fought and killed each other over material possessions, and dominion over one another.
No, I think the big fabrication is the belief that men are naturally compassionate and altruistic. With or without religion history paints a much different picture.
Yes, without religions, societies have much less crime and violence. A very different picture.
Right because the totalitarian regimes they build up don't count their own atrocities as violence or crimes.
"you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs." -Stalin
Before we go any further, let's keep in mind that believers in religions have ruled the world for centuries and in many countries, still do. Their decision making processes were as tainted by the religions they follow as they do today.
Thanks for providing those examples of a world in which every aspect of societies have in one way or another been influenced by the religious mindset. Well done, sir.
Jesus said to a Roman Centurion (I don't know how much more context you could fit in there) to, "do violence to no one." And to others He said, "Turn the other cheek." And to a crowd of angry, hate-driven men about a stone a woman to death for adultery (when they probably had a few encounters with her themselves), He said, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."
Any "Christian" who advocates violence, isn't following what Jesus both said, and did. Jesus forgave his murderers! How can anyone say anything bad about that? Because that's the example we're supposed to follow, not that of our fellow human being. We're all liars and thieves, which is why we are all sinners. But the "holier than thou" crowd ruins it for the rest of us.
Your salvation is in Jesus Christ, not "Christians". Go to the source yourself, and ask. He is a Living God, and can interact with you. But if you're going to do it, just to mock Him, I wouldn't suggest even asking for anything. But if you ask Him to help you get to know Him a little better, I can guarantee that He'll answer that kind of prayer.
So don't let the bad example of supposed "Christians" get in the way of you believing. Don't let so-called believers cloud your visions of a true and righteous God, one that loved us so much that He literally dwelled with us, just to tell us how much He really cared about us. He even went so far as to show us what it really meant to be a "follower of the Law" from the love of your heart, and not just a self-righteous "everyone else is going to burn in hell" parrot.
We know why wars happen: Greed, self-righteousness, and vengeance. No matter who is in charge, atheist or "believer" of any kind, the entire history of humankind is filled with violence. We're our own worst enemy. This is why we need God in our lives.
You can argue all you want about which religion is true, if any at all, but I've made up my mind. I could care less why you believe religion is, or which one is, true or not true. It doesn't bother me one bit.
All I'm saying is, let's not lump every "Christian" in the same "pot/kettle" category. Because isn't that no better than racism? Make your own judgment of things, based not only on words, but deeds. By their fruits, ye shall know them. Jesus warned us of wolves in sheep's clothing. You don't need a church, to have a personal father-and-son (or daughter!) relationship with Jesus. He loves you, and don't you doubt it because of the bad examples, of other people. Jesus is what every human could ever hope to attain, what every human dreams of: Immortality. That is why God is the great "I AM" of the Old Testament, and Jesus of the New. They explain each other, from different perspectives.
Look beyond the outward appearance of things. Don't rely on your own understanding, just trust Him.
Please speak for yourself, thanks. Many of us are not liars and thieves.
You can guarantee no such thing.
Funny how you say we need God in our lives when our entire societies were built with that in mind, hence the wars, greed, self-righteousness, etc. Now, it's time to shed those gods and start dealing with reality.
You can argue all you want about which religion is true, if any at all, but I've made up my mind. I could care less why you believe religion is, or which one is, true or not true. It doesn't bother me one bit.
Sorry, but that's why the world is in the state it's in today.
"Please speak for yourself, thanks. Many of us are not liars and thieves."
I mean, ever. You mean to say you've NEVER lied or stolen anything? Never coveted anything that didn't belong to you? Never looked at a woman with lust in your heart? Your whole life? I fought with this concept that I'm a sinner for the longest time, but in the end I gave up and gave in. Yes, you're a sinner, but... Yes, Jesus wants to forgive you. Would you accept?
"Funny how you say we need God in our lives when our entire societies were built with that in mind, hence the wars, greed, self-righteousness, etc. Now, it's time to shed those gods and start dealing with reality."
Why would you ask me to start dealing with reality? Is there something you know, that I don't? How does a lack of God in your life, make you any better than me? It isn't like I am any better than you, being a fellow sinner.
"Sorry, but that's why the world is in the state it's in today."
Absolutely wrong. The world is in the state it is in today, because people care about themselves more than others. In the entire recorded history of humankind, we've not gotten away from warring with each other for the most asinine things.
The real problem is that everyone is so worried about the outward appearance of things, and trying to fix it all from the outside in. But fixing the outside, when the heart is what needs fixing, is only a temporary thing. It doesn't matter how much vinyl siding you put on a house with rotten timbers, it will not hide the flaws in the structural integrity when the house collapses. Cancer doesn't get better the longer you ignore it.
Sin is like cancer, friend. But like Alcoholics Anonymous, the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem. God said you're a sinner, and sin separates us from God. Without being able to first admit that you are a sinner, you have no hope of escaping your sin, and you have no power to forgive yourself of your sins. Only God has the power to fogive sins, and there is only one mediator between humans and God: Jesus Christ.
I can only conclude that is an admittance to such behavior on your part?
Yes, I look at women, so what?
Sorry, but I don't engage in the type of behavior you're accustomed, so I don't need your Jesus to forgive me for anything.
Because you appear to be wallowing in fantasies.
Actually, it is YOU who claims to know something I don't.
Who said that?
I'm not a fellow sinner.
Religions are the cancer.
I am not a sinner, hence Jesus is irrelevant to me. Your God is obviously wrong on that count.
It is exactly those kind of claims and statements that have fueled many of the problems, conflicts and wars of our societies for centuries.
I have no idea what exactly I am replying to in context, since this forum is new to me, but I figure all the big blank spaces is where my text would have been? Maybe it is just my browser. Continuing...
Absolutely, I am a sinner. I have no problem admitting that I'm less than perfect.
And you may not think so, but lusting after them is a sin, no matter how harmless it seems to be.
You think you don't need the forgiveness of Jesus to free you from sin, but your opinion matters very little in the fact that you really do. Who is going to forgive you of your sins against God? Yourself? Oh yeah sure, wouldn't government be great if we could all be our own personal judge, and pardon ourselves of any crime we're committed of? It would be nice, but no one is perfect enough to be able to do that, which is why we need a 3rd party to tell us how bad we're actually doing. God is that 3rd party, and He said you're a sinner, so you are.
Um, where did I ever claim to know something you do not? Anyone can get to know God, if they ask. I'm sorry you don't want to get to know God, and instead blame Him for all of the world's problems, even though you say He doesn't exist?
You're the one saying that I need to start "dealing with reality". You mean to tell me that this "reality" you speak of, lacks God? How can you be so sure?
See and this is where context would be nice, but I can't really know what you're talking about with a bunch of blank spaces. I could guess what you're trying to say, but I'll let you clarify.
According to who? Yourself? This is why God doesn't allow you to be your own judge.
I'm guessing that was in reply to my 2nd to last paragraph, about the house with rotten timbers, and cancer?
You can blame religion ALL you want, but it isn't true at all. Not one bit true! That's like blaming handguns for killing people, spoons for people being fat, and pencils for misspelling words! Religion can't do anything by itself. It is the person that is evil. Why keep blaming everything else other than yourself for your problems? You reject God, you are the problem. You get in the way of your own salvation, no one else. In your rejection of God, you allow evil to thrive.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." - Ephesians 6:12.
Spiritual wickedness in "high places". The "highest" place in you, is your "heart", your thoughts and emotions. You're battling against yourself, and losing, because you refuse to see the problem within yourself. You wonder why so many Christians are bad, evil people? I would venture to guess, that if other people were really following God the way Jesus teaches us, this world would be a lot better off.
Oh yeah, religion is the only thing to blame. Humans aren't greedy, spiteful little miscreants on their own. Always gotta have a scapegoat! Never take the blame for our own actions! Deny, deny, deny.
Being less than perfect does not mean one is a sinner. If you admit to being a sinner, then you are admitting to not having morals and ethics, that you are unable to figure out on your own the difference between right and wrong and must be told what is right and what is wrong based on an ancient book of myths.
Looking at women and lusting after them are two different things and even if I did lust after women, it is entirely natural to do so.
I don't need anything or anyone to free me from something that has no bearing on me in the least.
I don't sin because I don't accept your beliefs regarding sin, they are irrelevant to me.
Who is going to forgive you of your sins against Allah or any of the other gods?
Then, I spit in your gods face for saying that and I'd punch his lights out if he ever showed himself to me. He won't, of course.
You can't get to know what has never been shown to exist.
Show me one god, any god. Can you?
Handguns, spoons and pencils don't state that I'm a sinner requiring forgiveness.
Nope, it is religions that cause good people to do bad things.
Show you God? You expect everything handed to you on a silver platter? Find Him yourself? I don't care what you do with your spare time. But, I seriously doubt you would be able to do anything in God's presence, let alone spit on or punch Him.
And if you don't sin, could you please tell me what you base your morals off of? Do you make up a new rule so you can break an old one, or do your morals never change?
Yes, I did figure out what is right and wrong on my own. I came to the conclusion that God's moral standard is what I should be using, not my own set of standards.
And no, religion doesn't cause bad things to happen any more than any other idea, like government and law, economics, medicine, the sciences, etc.. People are evil enough on their own to manipulate ANY system they come across.
No, I expect you to substantiate your claims for His existence. Talking about it is just so much hot air.
Logic and reason, of course. It's called "thinking." I can provide a definition for you if you like?
No, there is no need to make up new ones to break old ones, that makes no sense, actually.
How can you have your own set of standards when you just finished asking me how it's accomplished?
You've only been indoctrinated to believe people are evil. Religions are not like other ideas and can't be compared to ideas in reality because they are based on myths and fantasy.
I don't have a religion. I don't go to church. Church and religion turned me away from God at an early age... But I try my best to humbly serve God as best I can, because I want to, not because anyone told me to.
I just want you to know how much God really cares about you, because God does love you. It doesn't seem possible at first, but if you ask God to help you with getting to know Him better, I know He'll answer your prayer.
I know you think I'm just stupid or something, yeah fine, whatever. I don't care, I forgive you for thinking I'm dumb for believing in "myths and fantasy". But am I really so wrong to want to believe that there will be a better tomorrow some day? A day of rest, perhaps, from all this evil? God made the Sabbath for man, not man for the Sabbath.
I can't remember where I saw this quote, but, "Sunset reminds us that Eden is gone, and sunrise prophecies its return."
Yes, you do.
Indoctrination is the acceptance of religious beliefs.
Why not tell that to the tens of thousands of children who die of starvation every day? They might believe you.
Indoctrination is not your fault, you're a victim.
Pray to Him, and pray like you actually trust that He'll answer you, because that is what "faith" is: Trust. But don't for a second think that you can't ask God for help with your faith. Even a man of small faith said to Jesus, "And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." - Mark 9:24. He asked Jesus to strengthen his faith, his trust in God.
I really don't see a problem with believing that the most gentile and humane person that ever lived, Jesus, is always being rejected because of what supposed "Christians" say, (or whatever religion, denomination, etc.).
Are we really so quick to condemn Jesus, for what He told us not to do to each other, and are right now this very moment doing just that?
Don't look to me as an example to follow. I'm not perfect. Let Jesus be your moral authority. How could anyone deny the selfless act of forgiving your murderers? You might see Jesus as weak, but I believe God's forgiveness is shown in the idea that He is giving us more time to live, so that we have time to repent. He doesn't want us to go to spiritually die, so much so, that He was willing to show us the perfect example of a person: Jesus.
You might not see it that way, friend, but one day I hope you do. I really do pray to God works a miracle in your life, so that you are once again happy and see the good that could be done in humankind, if we followed that example of Jesus.
And Jesus died, simply because He was going around claiming to be God in the flesh. He fulfilled a ton a prophecies, and with more on the way. So either Jesus was the greatest madman of all time, or He really was God in the Flesh for forgiving His killers.
Now, It wouldn't matter if I had proof, you wouldn't believe me because you don't see it that way. We're all using the same evidence, and coming to different conclusions. I can't show you the evidence, from my perspective, because all I have is my word that it is true, to the best of my knowledge. If you don't want to believe because of what supposed "Christians" did... I can't say I blame you.
God bless... For what it's worth.
It's not worth anything, you have only false conclusions based on indoctrinated beliefs. The evidence does not support your beliefs by any stretch of the imagination.
Well God bless you anyway, "A Troubled Man".
I really only want good things for you. I want you to know that I personally pray for your physical safety, as well as your spiritual well-being. I know it doesn't mean much to you, but at the very least see that I am trying to help in the only way I can. I'm not cursing you or asking that God punishes you, that wouldn't be very "Christian" of me now wouldn't it?
No amount of words I could type would sway you otherwise, and so I pray.
It would respectful if you didn't give me your Gods blessing, thanks.
I really don't want you to want good things for me, thanks.
I don't want you to pray for me.
That is the reason why I don't want you to do those things, they are all based on false premises and are not something you were able to synthesize yourself because it came from a holy book, which commands you to do those things.
It wouldn't be very ethical. Christianity has little to do with ethics.
Yes, that is pretty much sums up the tactics used by many Christians, if they are unsuccessful quoting the Bible, they pray and do nothing else. Both have little to no effect.
See why the world is in the state it's in?
"See why the world is in the state it's in?"
Yes, I do.
"Religious" zealots want to rule the world in a "utopia" to God, for the misconception that God told them to.
Secular zealots want to rule the world in a world without God, for the misconception that religions causes strife.
I am caught in the middle, trying desperately to get everyone to settle the hell down and have a beer, maybe have a BBQ, and just relax. We can talk about spiritual things, or their supposed existence according to you, and not have to get angry about it.
I send you well-wishes, and you throw it in my face. And for what? What would you expect me to do, if the situation were reversed? What would you expect yourself to do, if a person just like you, were doing the same things you're doing to me, to you?
Instead of condemning you, I forgive you.
Since, "spiritual things" have never been shown to exist, there would be nothing to talk about. Wouldn't it make more sense to talk about things that did exist?
So, praying and blessings and other such assorted magical acts are "well-wishes" yet they do very little else other than insult ones intelligence, not to mention their origins are gleaned from an ancient book of myths commanding you to send them to me as opposed to something you would do because you wanted to do it.
And, you're forgiving me? I retire to bedlam.
I forgive you for hating me, and making fun of me.
Emotions are more than just a chemical reaction in the brain, and thought is more than just a collection of neurons. How in the world could emotions and thoughts just evolve? It is too structured to have been by chance.
Even science has the implications of spiritual things. Quanta are quite literally, for all intents and purposes, one-dimensional objects. They also seem to have a sort of sentience built into them. How could that even be possible?
And there is more, but I'll make another thread about that. Hope to see you there, friend.
Where do you get that ridiculous notion? You really love making yourself out to be a victim of others when instead you're just a victim of indoctrination.
That's because it wasn't by chance, it was evolution.
No, it doesn't.
It isn't possible.
More nonsense, you mean? Why bother?
So it is natural to be a pervert.
So fire does not burn me if I don't share your beliefs about it?
You have chosen your eternal destiny.
Well it has. You just have not seen it.
Noone can show you. Because you won't look.
Nope, it is the people that cause good religion to do bad things.
It won't be when you finally enter eternal damnation.
How sad. You can't see where you are going.
You don't see that you too do? You claim that you know your eternal destiny.
Yes you are.
Yes they are. But there is one more cancer and that is atheism. It is killing you.
I am sorry but you are, Only people with low morality levels can make such claims as this. So examine yourselves.
Don't be sad, cheer up.
No, I don't. Please don't fabricate lies.
You are atheist as well, just one more god than me.
You have placed links to websites that are filled with lies and deceit. Is that the morality level we should be attaining?
Both Islam and Christianity look to Abraham as the father of their religion. Islam and Christianity have warred against each other. Sects within Christianity and sects within Islam have warred against each other. They still do because members of each diverse little group believes they are the only right path and seek to impose their view on the others so what sort of god is it that doesn't sort out this mess?
Islam is nothing at all like Christianity in doctrine. That aside, I wanted to address the violence issue.
Most of Christianity today is nothing that resembles the God that forgave His murderers, who nailed Him to a cross. Reach out to that ideal, not the "popular" Christianity today. Look to Jesus as your example to follow, not some "Christian" who only goes to church one day a week for an hour, and thinks he's done the world a service by gracing his presence in a building.
There are good Christians out there, don't lump us all together, that's no better than racism. I have to share the "Christian" label with others who do the title a disservice, and I can't help that. And it isn't like my example is any better.
But my life, my example to you, was once full of sin. That's not to say I'm not a sinner now, it's just that I'm not doing nearly as many bad and hypocritical things as I used to. The bible says that the penalty for sin, is death. Any sin!
But does God really want to punish us? Not according to the bible. Not according to the testimony of Jesus, who forgave sins freely and willingly. God wants you on His side, and you don't need to go to church for it. You don't need to browse the internet and choose a denomination, as if shopping for food. It is so much more than simply picking out a wardrobe. (Though some would argue the ease of picking out a wardrobe... I digress).
God allows sin to happen, so we can be forgiven for it. Otherwise, He has to punish us. He doesn't want to punish us, because His rules aren't that hard to follow: Love Him, and treat your neighbor like you would want to be treated.
God tells us not to worry about the wicked, He'll take care of them. Don't worry about it, just trust Him no matter how bad it gets. I bet you would enjoy reading the book of Job, and how even though Job was persecuted, Job never cursed God. He sure questioned God, but never cursed Him. It's a great example to follow, but not quite the perfect example of Jesus. It was the first book of the bible I ever read, because I couldn't relate to this perfect "Jesus" guy. But Job certainly filled the gap of what I couldn't see.
And don't be surprised if you see the spiritual message in the bible, because the bible is first and foremost about spiritual things.
Yes, Christianity has been used for violence just like every other religion. I think, we don't see as much violence as was seen historically, because Christianity has mushroomed into so many different sects that it is no longer a binding force between vast numbers of people and across socio economic barriers. Nor, do they have religious leaders who attain a level of influence where they are seen as infallible.
Given a situation where a country mixes abject poverty with little to no education for the masses and it could easily revert back in those pockets. I would think.
They killed pagans by the millions. And what is hell a picnic.
There is an awful lot of smiting in the Old Testament. And most people seem to ignore the 'love thy neighbor' and 'turn the other cheek' ethos in the New Testament. Which is sad.
No, Christianity is not a violent religion.
Have Christians been violent? Certainly. Have some used Christianity as an excuse for violence? Yes. But that does not make the religion itself violent.
The problem with violence is ego, not religion. In fact, the key goal of most major religions is the removal of ego.
No religion is violent in origin. Violence are the act of human; driven by self righteous attitude, pride, vengeance, and survival instinct. It is a shame that in our 'hearts of children' the true desire in us are peace, love, mutual equality, respect and joy of sharing the same earth. In an act of self righteous, we tend to judge others by their beliefs, culture and the color of their skin. When the first retaliation begins, others pride are injured. Thus, the birth of vengeful spirit in them. When violence has gotten out of hand; everyone reacts with a survival instinct.
Our ancestors who should have taught us to forgive and let go passes the baton to the next generation. So the endless violence repeats it's cycle throughout history. It only takes one person with the courage to stand up and the having the boldness to change what is to show a peaceful and respectful way of communicating with his neighbor, And open the eyes of all the blinded heart to what could be ours if we can put our ego's aside. Whether it is Moslem, Christian, Judaism, Buddhist or any other religions. We seek the same thing. Peace.
But the path to peace does not come together with our selfishness to have it both ways; peace BUT my way to feed the ego. When I point the out the 'heart of children' at the beginning. I was referring to everyone's true needs, longings. But the deep things has been so distorted into something else all together.
A baby was not born to be violent. The environment and people who nurture the values in the child; programs the child to view and react to the world as the child grows. Who are the teachers? If we put a dozen of babies from all races of the world together, they will not resort to go for each other's throat but i bet they will try to get each other's attention to play and enjoy one another.
Let's end this 'My religion's better than yours' stuff, friends. There is really nothing to gain but widening an already existing tension. Really. We are not much different. The same human race. If only we refrain from the temptation to justify our beliefs, but show it in the 'grace'actions.
Peace to all.
Christianity for me has made me much less violent. I am not prone to acts of aggression. I tell those who give me a rough time to have a nice day and i look for good deeds to do. I sponsor a child in India through gospel for asia. I always have time to listen and to a heart to give.
Was i always this way? yes, but not to the extent i am today
Is Jesus responsible for this change? Yes absolutely
So as i am not planning a major world war (Hitler) I do not need a good cover to win over allegiances. As I am not a countries dictator (as such as in africa) I do not need a good cover to pass legislature. As I am not a power hungry person who is full of greed i do not admit my christianity hoping to garner favor (Georgy bush).
Religion, especially Christ, is the best cover to adopt and this is a fact.
But more to the question at hand. People need to read the words in red in a bible, lol and discern for themselves whether the bulk of Christian principles promotes good will toward man or not.
Mark 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Matthew 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
The correct answer should come easily
"Is Jesus responsible for this change? Yes absolutely"
Was it actually Jesus, or just your belief that was responsible? The two are quite different.
Its like anything, once you get involved you know more, see more, experience more.
Do you really believe that christianity is just another dead religion fulfilled by good works from a God whose arm is too short that it cannot reach?
No, I think people mistake the happiness and fulfillment belief gives them with an actual effect. Simply believing in something doesn't make it true, even if that belief makes you happy. I'm not discounting the power of belief. I'd be a fool to. I know it works, it's the placebo effect, essentially.
Following Christ is not violent at all. It's man who is corruptible, who has a great propensity for violence.
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