Christian Discussion

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  1. janesix profile image61
    janesixposted 4 years ago

    (How do you know your religious "experiences" are psychotic, Janesix? What if they're not?)

    What if, then? Then God will show himself to me, I suppose. That's His prerogative, right? Could be He has a plan for me.

    More likely, though, is that I AM psychotic (or was,as I am not at the moment.) My doctors (a team of two plus two student doctors) certainly convinced me that yes, I certainly was. Plus, I have proven to myself, by going over some of the evidence, that I did indeed hallucinate at least a portion of my experiences.

    1. profile image52
      PerrySparkposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      And the Glory of God became as a beacon of wisdom unto my spirit.
      I recognized that the adversarial system of law did produce much hallucinatory fantasy.
      For those who do not possess the spirit of wisdom continue to develop and present vague arguments based on limited science.
      This leads to disorderly acceptance of immoral acts whereby the disenchanted chase a posterior probability that a random event or an uncertain proposition was created by themselves.
      The fear of subservient status brings fear to the disenchanted as they promote sinful admiration as if it were a moral event.
      This then leads the disenchanted to flagrant patterns of conduct much different than those usually accepted or established as consistent with principles of personal and social ethics.
      It is the evil or licentious behavior of the disenchanted that presents the greatest societal danger because it increases more violent, bitter, and severe criminal activity.
      When projecting that everything is man-made the disenchanted bark loudly in order to attempt to drown out the truth.
      However, truth will always triumph because the moral and ethical structure of society recognizes that only a lie must be covered up by additional lies.
      The truth never needs to be broadcast in opposition of itself and therefore is designated triumphant in any matter where lies are spoken.
      Where there is truth - so there is God. 
      Where there is lies - so there is the Devil.
      Those that speak truth walk with God.
      So - it is only natural that those that walk with lies walk with the Devil.
      Know this my pretty - for every action - there is a concurrent reaction.
      When using truth - the concurrent reaction is positive.
      When using a lie - the concurrent reaction is negative.
      And - my pretty - when combining partial truth with a lie, the concurrent reaction spreads criminal activity.
      Individual responsibility cannot be transferred to any other organism.
      Therefore - my pretty - you must seek the moral ground if you are to achieve the positive future you desire.
      Otherwise - my pretty - you will continue to lie in the negative path where the Devil expands the evil criminal immoral activity.
      God blesses those that spread the truth.
      Seek that path for it will take you places you never thought possible.

      1. janesix profile image61
        janesixposted 4 years agoin reply to this

        That's really creepy that you keep calling me "my pretty".

        I have no idea what this post has anything to do with what I wrote.

        This is the weirdest thing yet I've read on Hubpages.

        1. profile image52
          PerrySparkposted 4 years agoin reply to this

          my previous input was not written to anyone in particular.
          it is only a response to the original statement based on the overall responses by everyone to the forum.
          the pretext that it applies to single individual therefore is a wrong assumption.
          the need of the masses demands that truth be spoken so that everyone will begin to work through truth as the basis for discussion.
          personal accountability demands such action when discussing the truth about the world society today.

          1. janesix profile image61
            janesixposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            I am personally accountable for the things I do. I'm not sure where you got that I wasn't.

  2. janesix profile image61
    janesixposted 4 years ago

    "I've also had my brain checked for aneurisms about a year ago and everything was normal."

    Psychosis can't be "scanned" for. I've had scans for seizures, which really means nothing, except that I probably don't have seizures. Someone with a bipolar brain looks relatively the same as a "normal" brain.

    You can't "scan" a brain to see if you're crazy. Doesn't work that way. Unfortunately.

    1. Cat333 profile image74
      Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

      Brain scans rule out certain things (lesions, etc.), but you're right that they won't detect bipolar disorder, etc. I'm not diagnosable with bipolar disorder or other disorders with psychosis, according to the criteria and according to an evaluation by a psychiatrist.

      I can't say whether your experiences were psychotic or not, but I just thought it curious that they were "religious" in nature. Who knows...

      1. janesix profile image61
        janesixposted 4 years agoin reply to this

        I've been hospitalized three times. Religious delusion seems to make up around a quarter or so of psychosis. A really high percentage of my fellow patients (who weren't there for drugs/alcohol/suicide attempts) had religious delusions.

        1. Cat333 profile image74
          Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

          I saw the same thing when doing an inpatient practicum during grad school (I think I switched from clinical to counseling psychology around that time). In fact my friend (who was also a Christian) and I had a discussion about all the people talking about God and Jesus, and how it made us wonder if some of them had some sort of true supernatural experience (either with God or with demons), which was just being dismissed as psychosis.

        2. profile image52
          PerrySparkposted 4 years agoin reply to this

          Great - one patient diagnosing another patient.
          What's next - one devil declaring another devil God?
          OH - I see -
          that has already been done by the current USA Administration.
          No wonder the world population is so screwed up.

          1. janesix profile image61
            janesixposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            What? I'm not allowed to make observations about people I've spent a good deal of time with, because I have a mental illness?

            It's called observation, not diagnosis.

          2. profile image0
            Motown2Chitownposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            I don't see anyone here trying to diagnose anyone else.  She is speak lay ONLY of her own experiences, and taking enormous risks doing so, I might add.  Frankly, I've observed similar things, to sharing a room once with a schizophrenic woman who refused any and all drug therapy because she didn't want to put her baby in danger.  She believed that she was pregnant with the baby of Jesus and that she would endanger the baby by taking drugs. 

            Oddly enough, she was years beyond menopause and had been tested for pregnancy (and found to NOT be so) at admission.  So, am I diagnosing anyone by saying that she was a diagnosed schizophrenic admitting to very religious themed delusions?  Nope.  Just making observations.

            And, as I was not in a psychotic state, despite being a believer I did not accept her story as being anything even closely resembling a religious experience-simply a delusion.

            1. oceansnsunsets profile image86
              oceansnsunsetsposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              Motown, If you go to page 268 you will see Cat asking for clarification before assuming, from Janesix.  Cat asks,

              "You don't believe what - that I have two degrees in psychology, or that I have no psychotic disorders?"

              Jane answered,

              "Both.

              But I was talking about the degrees."

              Jane confirmed both, on the same page.  To understand what led up to that, the page before or so would help.  It is clear though and she has stood by it. 

              She doesn't believe that Cat doesn't have psychotic disorders, despite her explaining how she doesn't diagnose as one with them and how she would know.  She also doesn't believe she has the education she states she has, which allowed her to work in the fields she since explains she did.  I like Jane, but this seemed harsh and not necessarily warranted.  So only share this now, because you didn't seem to see that part of the discussion as you said she is ONLY speaking of herself.  She wasn't.  (Jane that is.)  Hope that helps.

              1. profile image0
                Motown2Chitownposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                Because she said she doesn't believe something doesn't automatically lead to her believing the opposite.  I don't believe a lot of what I see here, but that doesn't mean I'm calling people liars or attempting to discredit them.  I just don't necessarily believe in the veracity of everything I read on the internet.

                The only other thing is that when the advice or...opinions of someone in a given field is opposite to everything one has ever heard from others in that field, it might be a little natural to be skeptical.

                I believe, personally, that Jane meant no harm or insult.  She was, like we said, expressing her own opinions based on her own experience.

                smile

                1. oceansnsunsets profile image86
                  oceansnsunsetsposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  My point is just that if you said you have two college degrees, and that you are not psychotic, and I said and confirmed that I don't believe you.... You would have no problem with that then right?

                  1. profile image0
                    Motown2Chitownposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    Would there be a valid reason for me to point those things out or insist that they be believed?  And would you have any way of knowing whether or not those things were true?  Would it matter at the end of the day?  I've been called out a zillion times on things I've said here.  One Christian told another that he was making up a story about losing his wife to cancer to garner sympathy and score points. When I tell people that I've been a Catholic nun, they still insist on arguing with me about the teachings of the Catholic Church.  It happens.  I don't get up in arms about it.  And truthfully, I didn't see Cat getting that way either.  You seem more concerned by it than she has been.

                  2. JMcFarland profile image83
                    JMcFarlandposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    People disbelieve me all the time about my past and my education.   So what?   The truth is not reliant on what a strangers opinion on the Internet is.

                    Can you think of any point of repeatedly claiming you're a prophet of god, that you have two degrees and that you're intellectually in the 99% if not just bragging and trying to make your posts more authoritative?   Why should I just believe it when I've seen no evidence that it's actually true?

                2. Cat333 profile image74
                  Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  I gave no ADVICE to Janesix, and I do not intend to advice her on her mental health status or care (She is already covered there). We're both participating in a Christian discussion. The spiritual realm and much that can be viewed as psychosis but may not be in truth falls within Christian topics. This does not mean I think psychosis isn't real and it doesn't mean anything about how common or uncommon I think true psychosis versus supernatural experiences are (I don't even attempt to make that determination). BUT if we are blind to the truth of the supernatural realm and inaccurately label EVERYTHING that's supernatural psychosis, then we are unintentionally harming ourselves in MANY SIGNIFICANT ways.

                  1. oceansnsunsets profile image86
                    oceansnsunsetsposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    Unbelievers won't ever label a possible supernatural issue as supernatural, because they don't exist to them.  Not whatsoever.  You can understand that point of view I think, correct? I mean, even if you disagree with it?

              2. profile image0
                Motown2Chitownposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                I don't think I'm communicating clearly.  I don't think it's a big deal.  Argue away about it if you like.

                My point about having been a nun is that one might think I have a little more than a little bit of knowledge about Catholicism-but they still tell me often that I'm full of crap.

                Jane didn't tell Cat she was a liar.  She said she didn't believe her.

                Does that really matter if it's true?  People don't believe things.  To make a point Cat makes often, what's true is true.  One doesn't have to believe it to make it so. 

                Again, I just think it's a big fuss being made about a little thing.

                I'll gracefully bow out now, and leave the conversation for the ones to whom it is meaningful.

                1. oceansnsunsets profile image86
                  oceansnsunsetsposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  Actually I did get that you don't think its a big deal.  I appreciate your thoughts on the matter, Motown.

                  1. profile image0
                    Motown2Chitownposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    See, this is a part of what I mean.  The tone of that response could be read as that you think I'm heartless and don't care that Cat's feelings may have been hurt. I could also read it as very dismissive.  Truth is, I care about everyone's feelings, just don't think this should have gotten everyone all riled up.  You are certainly free to think that I'm uncaring.  I know better, as do many others here.  See how that isn't a big deal?

  3. janesix profile image61
    janesixposted 4 years ago

    "I'm seen by others as having a sound mind. I display no signs of psychosis to others. As far as coincidences, we're talking about CONSTANT coincidences."

    Neither did I. Until I did.


    "I have a couple of degrees in Psychology - I have disorders, but I don't fit the psychotic disorders"

    I just don't believe that for a second.

    1. Cat333 profile image74
      Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

      You don't believe what - that I have two degrees in psychology, or that I have no psychotic disorders?

      1. janesix profile image61
        janesixposted 4 years agoin reply to this

        Both.

        But I was talking about the degrees.

        1. oceansnsunsets profile image86
          oceansnsunsetsposted 4 years agoin reply to this

          Wow, the levels of insulting seem to know no bounds in here, and ATM echoes this below regarding the degrees. 

          Its not just assuming the worst anymore about people, its calling them liars about their own education.  I have seen some in here puff themselves up about things I wonder about including education, etc. I don't get that sense at all from Cat, and understand she brought it up because people are basically accusing her of being crazy.  She is expressive in how she shares what she believes, and has experienced.

          Its disheartening that people are so not at peace with just how others are and want to think, be, and express themselves.  She is different from others here, but hasn't hurt anyone.  I don't even get the whole thing with Radman either, the fixation on her understanding of the spirit of God and how she expresses her thoughts and beliefs there.  People can be so cruel.  Its funny, cause I said that I think multiple god's are illogical, and he thought that I put down all Hindus the other day, and said not cool, while missing the other points made.  Never mind that he shows no problem (as do many others here) with putting down one group in particular that differs from them.  That is very strange phenomenon, that behavior expressed many times over, while ignoring whole groups of others.  That this isn't a personal red flag to the people that do it, and that is isn't seen for the irony it is considering whose views are being gone after most, is a support for the attacked view.  I can only pray that people start to care at least a bit more about themselves, but if not that, then others that simply believe differently from them.  Notice....the need to go after it.  It is incredibly strong and seems a driving force for many around here.  Hours, days, weeks, months, and I have personally observed years of it myself now.  Incredible that it isn't its own sign to anyone but those that can seem to see it for what it is. 

          Edit: (This is not all directed at you Jane, most of it isn't.  Just the part of saying she is lying about having two degrees in psychology, and the part about being psychotic.  You are not in the big leagues around here when it comes to what I describe above.)

          1. janesix profile image61
            janesixposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            She doesn't even use the correct terminology. I can tell when someone is lying or not for the most part. I believe she is.

            1. oceansnsunsets profile image86
              oceansnsunsetsposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              I only have a minor degree in the social sciences, but have self studied it a lot on my own.  Other than the spiritual terminology she uses which probably confuses a lot of people or frustrates them, I don't see incorrect terminology that justifies the basically outright calling her a liar about it.  Her worldview wouldn't' support her lying about it either.  In fact the one post seemed to support her side, when she was saying she doesn't qualify for psychosis and gave her reasons. 

              Just pointing out, would it feel good to you if people said, "no, you don't have two degrees in _____ (fill in the blank), if you really did?  Its just a big accusation, and I have been watching some and don't see the justification.   Now if Radman, ED, RA, or ATM (and a couple others) said this, I wouldn't have the "wow" factor response I did with you.  You generally seem more fair, and intellectually honest most of the time. Thus the doubting she is really psychotic despite her explaining why she thinks she isn't and giving her credentials for it, and doubting those, etc.  It just struck me as "ouch", for her.  I am trying to also be as possibly unbiased as I can be. I see how she speaks about the things she does and can understand a measure of it.

              1. janesix profile image61
                janesixposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                I have been literally surrounded by psychiatrists for four years. She just doesn't seem the type. I know a ton about the subject, just out of self-defense practically. She seems to think that psychosis is something that is ongoing, which it isn't. It comes and goes, and doesn't last very long. Except in a few rare cases.

                EDIT: If Cat can convince me I'm wrong about her, then I will be more than willing to publically apologize.

                1. oceansnsunsets profile image86
                  oceansnsunsetsposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  I don't think she has any intention of proving to anyone she didn't mean exactly as she has said in these forums.  I think she expresses herself differently about her spiritual experiences than many here do,than most even.

                  So she will just have to get the "you are lying about your 2 degrees, and you are too, psychotic at time" comments I guess.  I just don't think that is fair, not for being different, and that is what I see here. I am probably not communicating this all the best.

          2. janesix profile image61
            janesixposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            What's wrong with being "crazy"? I am. I don't feel like I'm less of a person because of it. In fact, I think I'm a pretty good person. With a manageable illness. I don't like to see people deluding themselves. Psychosis can be fun. Until it's not.

            1. A Troubled Man profile image58
              A Troubled Manposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              That was very well said. Succinct and to the point, explaining so much with so few words. I love it. smile

            2. oceansnsunsets profile image86
              oceansnsunsetsposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              I don't judge anyone for being "crazy", and if you notice, most around here don't use it in the sense you are using it generally in these forums.  That you share what you do is part of why I have come to respect you like I do, you are very honest and open and that is commendable.  So, I should have "weighted" it out accordingly, compared to how others generally use that idea or suggest it. 

              Still, its a big thing to accuse another (I think) of being truly psychotic (if that is what was being done along with accusation of lying about her 2 degrees), even if you yourself have had some past brush with such things personally.  I can see your point of view that you kind of get to speak on it a bit more perhaps from at least that one angle.

              Diagnoses of truly psychotic patients, can be tested.  She seemed to be knowing what she was speaking of when saying she falls out of the line of being classified under any.  Many around here like to gang up on people and just say it out of hand like its nothing.  Its very real though, and I get the feeling in this discussion you both are speaking of it in that real way. 

              Do you believe there are spirits out there, good and evil ones?  Demons?  Just curious.  If so, that lends a whole other new perspective onto everything.  I know what the  materialists or naturalists would say, just curious about you, since you personally observed people having very real delusions having to do with a spiritual nature like you mentioned.  I have heard about people having delusions like that before death which can be explained a number of ways too.  I have heard my Catholic friends speak about how they know of people that truly felt very strong spiritual stuff happening before they died. 

              I think you are alright Janesix, I really like you, so I hope you don't misunderstand my comments.

              1. janesix profile image61
                janesixposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                I don't believe in demons or spirits (never have).

                Right now I don't know what I believe.

                Except that I KNOW people can delude themselves, for years. I did. Can you accept that I am HONESTLY worried about people who say the same things I did when I (now) know that I was psychotic? I'm worried about her, not dissing on her.

                1. oceansnsunsets profile image86
                  oceansnsunsetsposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  I am just saying that for such big accusations, I would hope you and others would know 101% almost that you were right and that she is absolutely lying about her college degrees and possible psychosis to judge her as if you were right and she is wrong. 

                  If you are genuinely worried about her, I don't know how accusations help.  All the same, I am glad you are genuinely concerned.

                  1. profile image0
                    Rad Manposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    Oceans,

                    We have here and individual who has admitted have issues with psychosis, who is getting professional help and is on medication and we have someone claiming to be counselling psychologist who seems to be advising her that her psychosis may be real. Does that sound reasonable to you?

            3. profile image52
              PerrySparkposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              22 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the Lord your God.

          3. Cat333 profile image74
            Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

            Thank you, oceansnsunsets. And you make very good points, as you always tend to do.

        2. Cat333 profile image74
          Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

          I have an undergraduate degree in psychology (graduated summa cum laude) and a masters degree in counseling psychology (I began with clinical psychology, but found I didn't like the clinical aspects, so switched to counseling psychology). I have several scholarly publications in the field as well. I worked as mental health therapist for a decade in a juvenile detention center. It became a sort of a "mission" ground for me, and I saw the Spirit act in powerful ways in that place. I'm now at home with a toddler and preschooler, though I left work not so much because of my children as because of a sexual harassment and retaliation case against my employers (the corrections field tends to be a little behind in their sexual harassment tolerance). God promised me an unlikely victory in my case (very few people win such cases and when they do they get little compensation) and he followed through with his promises - I was given a large sum of money, my sexual harasser was fired, my employers who retaliated due to my reports were dealt with, AND I even maintained the right to talk about my case despite the settlement money I received (something that pretty much never happens, as in settlement they're essentially "buying" your silence, which I refused to allow). God gave me promises all the way, made every unlikely thing occur, and gave me the victory. I do have some difficulties with the idea of returning to work based on some of the "trauma" of the whole situation. And I would only return to counseling as a Christian Counselor.

          1. profile image0
            Rad Manposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            I can't imagine a psychologist counselling someone with psychosis and telling them that their delusions may be real. That's what you seem to be doing here.

            As a side note do you think Freud's model of the mind, specifically the superego could explain peoples beliefs in God?

            1. Cat333 profile image74
              Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

              First, I'm not a psychologist, but a mental health therapist. Second, since my field is counseling psychology rather than clinical psychology, I didn't work as much with the "psychotic" population as with other persons with difficulties (though we certainly had some psychotic youth in detention). I made the appropriate referrals for those displaying psychosis (hallucinations, delusions, etc.). Still, I did pray with some clients. And I did wonder about possible spiritual truths behind some of it (as in the case of a young man who repeatedly kept requesting counseling with me, expressed a personal interest in me, and then kept telling me the voices and demons didn't like me and told him he should kill me).

              As for Freud, I'll be brutally honest - I think he was a bit of a moron.

              1. profile image0
                Rad Manposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                Fraud was a moron, but you've got this covered.

                1. Cat333 profile image74
                  Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  I don't have anything "covered" Rad Man. I haven't claimed to. There is much I don't know. I've shared what I do know, based on the leading of the Spirit, and you reject that.

      2. A Troubled Man profile image58
        A Troubled Manposted 4 years agoin reply to this

        I certainly don't believe you have one degree in psychology let alone two. But then, I haven't seen anything you've said in your posts that is believable at all.

        1. profile image52
          PerrySparkposted 4 years agoin reply to this

          Leviticus 19:31
          Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.

  4. janesix profile image61
    janesixposted 4 years ago

    " understand billions of people read the Word of God, but I am asking why believers would be particularly likely to experience psychosis, and psychosis of the exact same nature. If they were all diagnosed as psychotic, it would take the number of psychotic people to a level that is not normal or to be expected. "

    Millions of people also have similar psychotic beliefs in aliens and NWO government conspiracies. Psychotic beliefs follow fads just like everything else. In some centuries, it's fairies or dwarves. Whatever is popular at the moment. Religion is common in all ages.

    1. Cat333 profile image74
      Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

      Certainly psychosis exists, but it's rare. If we add in all the people with supernatural religious experiences, it elevates the number of psychotic experiences or people diagnosed with psychosis to a level that we wouldn't expect.

      I don't believe in aliens but I consider it possible that people have seen something they believe is an alien. I've seen drawings from biblical descriptions that look just like the "aliens" people report seeing. Who knows, maybe people are seeing demonic or other spiritual beings and labeling them aliens (or "fairies").

      Yes, religion is common in all ages. God has put this within us so that we may seek and find HIM.

    2. profile image52
      PerrySparkposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      1 Peter 5:2
      feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

  5. janesix profile image61
    janesixposted 4 years ago

    "am sure of a SHARED experience  - when at the exact moment I'm feeling intense warmth and "tugs" and "waves", and though I've said nothing of my experiences, the boy in detention I'm talking about God with suddenly grips his shirt and stares at me with huge eyes and says "Whoa, did you just feel that"

    Yeah. People like to feel important and copy each other and pretend all the time. Ever been to one of those "slain in the spirit" BS groups? I bet you have. People love to flop around and pretend like they are specially chosen by God for religious experiences. It's pretty sad.

    1. Cat333 profile image74
      Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

      EXCEPT that this young man wasn't COPYING me because I had not let him know of my experience right at the same moment (of warmth, tugs and waves). I was actually in some shock and awe myself, as I tended to be especially early on in my experiences with the Spirit. The boy let me know of his experience of warmth and a jolt without me having divulged my experience at the exact same moment.

      No, I've never been to a "slain in the spirit" group. I've never flopped around or pretended anything. I do understand people falling back when the Spirit falls on them and heals them, as I have to CONTROL myself to not fall back or make a sound (I'm really an overly self-controlled person). None of my thoughts are coming from any church experiences or groups. I drift from church to church almost like a restless wanderer (I move from place to place in the same way). I've tried every single Christian denomination, and while I'm thankful they speak truth for the most part (their disagreements aren't really so central), I find almost all of them spiritually "flat". My experiences are my experiences without outside influence. In fact, my influences should have me being "flat" as well spiritually speaking. But the Spirit is the one who has determined otherwise.

      People like to feel important and copy each other and pretend all the time. Ever been to one of those "slain in the spirit" BS groups? I bet you have. People love to flop around and pretend like they are specially chosen by God for religious experiences. It's pretty sad.

      1. profile image0
        Rad Manposted 4 years agoin reply to this

        It is pretty sad. Why do you continue to do it?

        1. Cat333 profile image74
          Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

          These are Janesix's words, not mine, Rad Man - "People love to flop around and pretend like they are specially chosen by God for religious experiences. It's pretty sad."

          I've never "flopped around", and I maintain that ALL people are called by God (though only some respond to the call; I won't get into the "chosen" part of it).

          1. profile image0
            Rad Manposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            Why would you copy her words and pretend they are yours?

            1. Cat333 profile image74
              Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

              I didn't. She's had my words in her responses to me and I've had some of her words in my responses to her.

              1. profile image0
                Rad Manposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                Do you not know how to format your posts so that we know what your words are?

                1. Cat333 profile image74
                  Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  Yes, I do, Rad Man. Without going back to review it, I'm going to guess either she or I left something unclear in this particular incident. I think you can see it's generally fine.

              2. oceansnsunsets profile image86
                oceansnsunsetsposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                People do that all the time also, I do by accident all the time and forget to delete them before I post my posts.  I guess he has never seen it before now?  That would make a ton of the posts in here very confusing and explains at least one post where he was giving me kudos for my response.  He must have just read the first part which was someone else's.  Confirms some things for me.

                1. profile image0
                  Rad Manposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  Oceans, I responding to that post as I thought I should. Don't take this the wrong way, but I find you sometimes difficult to read (could be my dyslexia). You seem sometimes to say a lot and not say anything. I wouldn't say this if I didn't know that others sometimes find the same thing.

                  Can you guys hit the formate button and learn how to communicate so other's words don't look like yours.

                  1. oceansnsunsets profile image86
                    oceansnsunsetsposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    I have admitted to needing to be less wordy, and clearer in my posts.  It is something I have to try not to do, imagine if I really let loose, lol. 

                    On the flip side, I feel sometimes that some here don't really understand what is being said, or the points being made.  There are many reasons I say this.  I can only guess as to what the reasons are.  Some could be they are reading too fast, or only skimming posts.  Perhaps they are not taking the time to fully comprehend points being made, to see if they are good or not.  Or any other number of things.  To be clear, I understand that my part in that with sometimes wordy posts doesn't help the person that might not want to really read or likes to just skim posts, etc.

    2. profile image52
      PerrySparkposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      2 Timothy 2:4
      No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
      James 2:5
      Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
      Revelation 17:14
      These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

  6. janesix profile image61
    janesixposted 4 years ago

    "EXCEPT that this young man wasn't COPYING me because I had not let him know of my experience right at the same moment (of warmth, tugs and waves). I was actually in some shock and awe myself, as I tended to be especially early on in my experiences with the Spirit. The boy let me know of his experience of warmth and a jolt without me having divulged my experience at the exact same moment.

    No, I've never been to a "slain in the spirit" group. I've never flopped around or pretended anything. I do understand people falling back when the Spirit falls on them and heals them, as I have to CONTROL myself to not fall back or make a sound (I'm really an overly self-controlled person). None of my thoughts are coming from any church experiences or groups. I drift from church to church almost like a restless wanderer (I move from place to place in the same way). I've tried every single Christian denomination, and while I'm thankful they speak truth for the most part (their disagreements aren't really so central), I find almost all of them spiritually "flat". My experiences are my experiences without outside influence. In fact, my influences should have me being "flat" as well spiritually speaking. But the Spirit is the one who has determined otherwise."

    Oh. My mistake. You obviously are a very special person. Not delusional at all.

    1. Cat333 profile image74
      Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

      ALL people are made the same offer - "EVERYONE who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved"; and ALL BELIEVERS have the Spirit within them and ALL may receive an outpouring of the Spirit, which gives power and ability they do not possess in their own weaknesses. Think of it more as an unrecognized and untapped, unutilized source of supernatural power that ALL BELIEVERS COULD HAVE. I am not "special" just because I seek God and abide in him and rely on the Spirit and say "yes" to the multitude of gifts he is waiting to bestow on those who are eager to receive.

      1. profile image51
        idealisticposted 4 years agoin reply to this

        Matthew 7:21 says something different

        1. Cat333 profile image74
          Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

          All that I gave is straight from Scripture - "EVERYONE who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" (Acts 2:21, Romans 10:13, Joel 2:32)

          "Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies" (1 Corinthians 6:19-20); "You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ." (Romans 8:9).

          "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you" (Acts 1:8). "Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines." (1 Corinthians 12:7-11)

          Matthew 7:21 does NOT say anything different - "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." In fact, it parallels Romans 8:9 in that those without the Spirit of God and Christ living in them are not God's own, no matter what they may say. They are like those who Jesus was speaking of when he said, "These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me" (Matthew 15:8), and when God through the Spirit likewise said, "The Lord says: 'These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me'" (Isaiah 29:13).

  7. profile image0
    Rad Manposted 4 years ago

    Cat, I'm not changing your words at all. I'm showing them to you.

  8. profile image0
    Beth37posted 4 years ago

    Imagine two jr. high rival football teams. They absolutely hate each other. Now, unsupervised, in the parking lot, the opposing cheer-leading buses sit parked next to each other. The girls slide the windows down and fast, and furious, the insults begin. I picture that having more dignity than this.

    Cat, I encourage you to exit this conversation and allow them the pleasure of their own company. Whether they believe you or not, is meaningless. You have shared your faith with them to the best of your ability... if I were you, I would allow God to move their hearts or not, as He chooses. Just my opinion though. You don't owe me any response. I just can't imagine there is anything left to benefit at this point.

    1. JMcFarland profile image83
      JMcFarlandposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      Weren't you saying you were leaving weeks ago?   If you're offering the same advice to others,  wouldn't it be beneficial if you followed your own advice,  first?

      1. Cat333 profile image74
        Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

        I said I didn't think I'd be here long; no, I didn't say I was leaving weeks ago.

        What is your motivation in constantly saying negative things to me or about me?

        1. JMcFarland profile image83
          JMcFarlandposted 4 years agoin reply to this

          The post that you're responding to?   Yeah,  wasn't addressed to you,  so your post is a little irrelevant

          1. Cat333 profile image74
            Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

            My apologies, JMcFarland. I had just been looking at the post that was addressed to me from you and confused them.

      2. MelissaBarrett profile image61
        MelissaBarrettposted 4 years agoin reply to this

        Amen

    2. Cat333 profile image74
      Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

      Thanks, Beth. It often seems unfruitful labor here, BUT I do feel compelled to present the truth even if no one listens (and who knows who may read and not participate). Also, I learn from this experience - what to say and not to say, things that benefit my writing, and so on.

      It seems like those of us who speak the truth straight from the word of God (as I know you do) are despised most of all by many in these forums. Those with the attitude that they're "Christian" but a Christian can have any opinion they want regardless of the truth, and truth really can't even be known, don't stir up much anger by unbelievers.

      1. profile image0
        Beth37posted 4 years agoin reply to this

        Oh look, you answered my post perfectly before I posted. lol
        You must be some kind of a prophet.

        1. Cat333 profile image74
          Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

          Made me laugh! Thanks, Beth!!

    3. janesix profile image61
      janesixposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      You seem to think you are a referee or something.

      Plus, you are always on the side of the "underdog", whether or not that person is really an underdog or not. You don't have to defend everyone. You really don't, not the people here. Cat has balls of steel, she doesn't need your defense. I think you have a good heart Beth. You're a sweetie pie in my book (I'm totally serious here.)

      1. profile image0
        Beth37posted 4 years agoin reply to this

        Yes Jane, I'm sorry. I can't help it... it bothers me to no end to see someone be bullied. When I see someone in real life bully someone weaker, I tend to turn into a mama bear. I do apologize for sticking my nose in, but I have to admit, it will probably not be the last time.

        1. janesix profile image61
          janesixposted 4 years agoin reply to this

          It's ok. I don't like seeing bullies do their thing either. I wasn't really trying to be harsh with Cat. It's a simple fact though, I just don't think she's being honest. That upsets me too. I don't hate or even dislike her.

          She says things that are really not good things to say to people sometimes. I wish she would think about how it might affect other people when she says those things. If she seemed fragile, I probably would be more polite. But I don't think she'll get the message with politeness.

          PS, I think you're a good person, and there's nothing wrong with being a peacemaker. I think you genuinely care.

          1. profile image0
            Beth37posted 4 years agoin reply to this

            Please allow me to say. They did the same thing to CG about her education, I believe it was.
            Here is my point; what's the point?

            JM says she went to bible college. OK
            Melissa says she was a lesbian. OK.
            Radman says his wife is a Christian and his kids go to Catholic school. OK.
            You say you suffer from Bi-Polar disorder. OK.

            Maybe all these things are true, maybe they are not. At some point maturity says, 'Let it go.' So what if you don't believe it? So what? It's a moot point. There has to be some point where we just lay off each other and talk about the main point. It is so incredibly small, this mob mind set. I encourage you Jane, b/c you are still seeking the truth... when you see them all go off on a tangent, don't join in. It doesn't behoove you in any way. It's not like at the end of the day any of those ppl are there for you... we are ultimately alone. Those of us who have a relationship with God have a confidant and a friend, but as far as these forums... we are alone.

            1. janesix profile image61
              janesixposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              This is my point though. She says she's a psychologist or whatever. Someone might believe her, and listen to what she says. She says things that are unreasonable, in my opinion, and may even be dangerous. I won't rehash all those things for now, unless you want me to be more specific. A gullible or naïve person could get hurt or hurt someone else.

              Tangents happen in forums, it's just how they work. All the time.

              I just wish she was more responsible with her words. If she wants to praise God or share her beliefs, great. I can go all day long with Sir Dent and other believers and have no problem. Cat is a different ball game.

              EDIT: To be fair, even I admit to saying dangerous things on the forums that I regret saying. Like finding God by locking yourself in a closet without food for three days (bad idea, folks, don't try that at home). We have to be careful what we say on the internet, and to other people in general. Sometimes people listen. Especially naïve or young people.

              1. Cat333 profile image74
                Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                Janesix - I didn't come into a Christian Discussion forum to give anyone mental health advice (which I absolutely have not done), and I even avoided mentioning my field for awhile with you. BUT it strongly related to our discussion in which you kept insisting that I'm psychotic because of my spiritual experiences, which is simply not accurate (and my experiences would NOT be diagnosed as such within the mental health field, which allows for religious/spiritual experiences).

                The efforts by many (you are not the only one in the forums) to dismiss the spiritual experiences I've had (or others have had and spoken of) by labeling them psychosis, imagination, and so on is significant as it is one more way of BLINDING people to the TRUTH, which is that the SPIRITUAL REALM IS REAL.

                I understand this particular truth causes controversy in our day. That doesn't make it any less of the truth, that doesn't make it any less vital to know and understand, that doesn't make me "irresponsible" for speaking uncompromised truth in a day when the popular thing to do is "compromise" the truth, teach a "watered-down" version of Christianity, allow everyone to have their own arrogant "opinion" on everything (ironically I come across as arrogant for insisting on the truth given to us by God in his Word, while unbelievers and even some "believers" arrogantly make up whatever they desire and this exaltation of their own opinions is not recognized as TRUE arrogance). I will boldly continue to declare the truth as given IN THE WORD to everyone, and those who have ears to hear will hear. God has different purposes for his servants and one is not better than another. He will fulfill his purpose for me, just as he will fulfill his purpose for all his servants who permit it.

                Speaking truth STRAIGHT FROM THE WORD OF GOD stirs up the most anger amongst unbelieves who participate in Christian forums. The more we do this, the more our words are attacked, twisted, manipulated, questioned, and so on. So be it.

                In my natural state I am "frail" (people rarely speak to me harshly in person no matter what I say, as very petite size, a soft-spoken voice and so on inhibit it). But the Spirit within my gives me abilities contrary to my nature so that what you are seeing is a boldness not possessed in my natural state (which is diagnosable as socially anxious, especially during childhood - think of Wednesday on the initial Adams Family TV show and this was what I looked/acted like). I am unwilling to "please" others by compromising the truth (both in person and in forums), regardless of my own nature, and will continue to declare the truths of God despite my nature and any rejection by any of those who have been frequenting Christian forums with what appears a primary purpose to challenge and reject God, Jesus, the Spirit and/or the Word of truth (who are all one in the same).

                1. A Troubled Man profile image58
                  A Troubled Manposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  As you can plainly see, Beth, Cat is not taking a beating, but instead, is dishing out the beating and has no problem making people angry.

                  1. oceansnsunsets profile image86
                    oceansnsunsetsposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    If so, Then can you explain how people coming to a Christian discussion that get angry at bible verses makes sense?  And how you trying to make the anger the fault of cats is logical in that actual scenario we see?  The attempt to twist things seems to not be successful.

                  2. Cat333 profile image74
                    Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    How do you equate speaking truth from the Word of God with "giving a beating"? What harsh words have I spoken toward you, A Troubled Man, Janesix or JMcFarland, three who recently have indicated they don't believe what I've said (or anything I say)?

                2. profile image51
                  idealisticposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  Commendable that you are standing firm in your beliefs.

                  1. profile image0
                    Rad Manposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    What is commendable about claiming to be a prophet, claiming she doesn't need faith because see has a direct line with God, deciding who is Christian and who isn't, telling people she has 4 degrees (2 in psych and is in the 99 percentile) but when asked about Freud's model of the mind reply that Freud was a moron or some such thing.

                    This behaviour your commend?

                  2. Cat333 profile image74
                    Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    Thank you, Idealistic.

                3. janesix profile image61
                  janesixposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  You think you have God-given abilities that make you have different characteristics than you normally would. That in itself speaks to me of grandiosity, delusional thinking, and is definitely something I would be concerned about if I were you.

                  I just hope you see it before you have an unpleasant psychotic experience. I've been there, I really, truly, feel sorry for you. These are not "normal' religious feelings.

                  1. Cat333 profile image74
                    Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    If you are genuinely "concerned" Janesix, I can appreciate that.

                    A couple of things to keep in mind though - I don't think I IN PARTICULAR OR ESPECIALLY have God-given abilities that make me different, but rather that this is something for ALL believers, though presently embraced by only SOME. When believers are "baptized in the Spirit" or receive an outpouring of God's Spirit onto them (all true believers have God's Spirit placed within them, but this is different), then these believers who have been baptized in the Spirit WILL display behaviors not typical of them. My personal example is that I, a naturally timid and "weak" person both physically (pretty much every ten-year-old surpasses my physical strength) and even emotionally weak in many ways (I'm HEADSTRONG but this is different than emotionally strong) am bold in the truth I present and unconcerned with the "popularity" of my message (again here in my flesh I'm probably more of a "people pleaser" than many). You will find such examples in scripture as well - Peter, for example, went from hiding and denying Jesus to boldly preaching the truth and Word of God, once the Spirit had come upon him.

                    I understand that this sounds like craziness to those who are unfamiliar with the Spirit. Yet I would rather appear crazy to the majority and speak the truth to those with ears to hear, then sound okay to the majority and compromise the TRUTH.

                    I wasn't seeking the SPIRIT or his power and manifestation when he first came upon me in my young adult years (and in fact I initially pushed him away, saying it was too much for me and I wasn't raised like that or used to that). I was simply in truth seeking God and really didn't have much of a concept of the power and presence of the Spirit.

                    You say these are not "normal" religious feelings, and sadly this is all too true. If you read the Scriptures you will see that they are INTENDED for the believers, for the "church" or body of Christ. Think of how little they say we use of our brains and how much more there is to be utilized. This is as it is regarding the Spirit for the body of believers - the power of the Spirit is there and is meant to be sought after, embraced and utilized, but far too many believers live complacently within modern day churches, at times even denying the power that is there through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

                  2. profile image52
                    PerrySparkposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20 AKJV
                    Romans 1:17 AKJV
                    For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
                    2 Timothy 3:12-14 AKJV
                    12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

                4. janesix profile image61
                  janesixposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  I thought I had a direct line to God too.
                  I thought I had God-given abilities too.
                  I thought I could heal people with spiritual energy, and my mind. I thought I was a central figure in turning the world around from evil to good. There are all kinds of "good" thoughts that I went through, over years. All of my delusions were of a religious nature. I had these thoughts on and off for years.

                  But then the thoughts turned really delusional, and of a negative nature. I was still supposed to save the world, but I had enemies, forces that were trying to stop me, etc. I was being trained for an epic battle. It was truly frightening. I started hearing voices, having command hallucinations (voices telling me what to do). Delusions starting becoming contradictory. I sought help. I got on the right meds for my situation. I finally got confirmation that indeed, I WAS delusional.

                  I wish to spare you the horror of all of that. The past month has been like a nightmare. You remind me of myself quite a bit. That's why I'm telling you these things.

                  1. Cat333 profile image74
                    Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    I do sense here that you are genuinely concerned, Janesix, and I really do appreciate that. I also admire your honesty, humility and forthrightness in what you share.

                    I'm glad you sought help and you're not experiencing the same negative hallucinations, delusions and such that you were.

                    May God bless you and show you his love and peace.

                    "For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind." (2 Timothy 1:7).

                  2. profile image52
                    PerrySparkposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    Hebrews 12
                    Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
                    12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. 4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 for whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

        2. A Troubled Man profile image58
          A Troubled Manposted 4 years agoin reply to this

          Someone is being bullied? Who?

  9. profile image0
    Beth37posted 4 years ago

    Rah, rah.

    1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
      MelissaBarrettposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      Aww Beth, just because you wave your pom-poms (quite a lot actually, from what I hear) for one group doesn't mean you aren't doing the same thing the other group is. You just think it's fine because it's your group.

      There's a word for that.

      1. profile image0
        Beth37posted 4 years agoin reply to this

        *The other cheek.*

        1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
          MelissaBarrettposted 4 years agoin reply to this

          Yeah, same thing for waving those around as the pom-poms. I'll take my moral advice elsewhere... thanks smile

          1. profile image0
            Beth37posted 4 years agoin reply to this

            God bless you and keep you,
            God smile on you and gift you,
            God look you full in the face
            and make you prosper.

            1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
              MelissaBarrettposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              You should probably pray for yourself. I'm already proper.

              Tell me, did you have the turn the other cheek response ready when you came in hurling insults? Now why would someone insult someone else and then act like it was THEM that was insulted when someone said something about it?

              There must be a reason for that.

              I mean surely there's a word for somebody who would create a situation where someone either has to ignore their insults or get a superior dismissal (from God, no less) when they respond.

              1. profile image0
                Beth37posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                ‘“The Lord bless you
                    and keep you;
                the Lord make his face shine on you
                    and be gracious to you;
                the Lord turn his face toward you
                    and give you peace.”’

                1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
                  MelissaBarrettposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  And may God give you the proper reward for using his words to win arguments and appear righteous in the eyes of others instead of using his words to glorify God. May God look into your heart, see your motives and thoughts and respond accordingly. May you get everything you deserve from the Almighty for the things you do with his words and the way you behave in his name.

                  1. profile image0
                    Beth37posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    I will use my words.

                    These threads have hit bottom. Personal insult is on level with the most ill behaved of children.
                    I did not point fingers at any side or person, I just thought the title of the thread was completely lost.
                    I wish you a good day, with words from the bible or the words from my own mouth... whether either are or are not palatable to you.

                  2. Cat333 profile image74
                    Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    I think Beth is genuinely trying to give a blessing because our Heavenly Father has directed us to bless our enemies.

  10. LauraD093 profile image83
    LauraD093posted 4 years ago

    https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hph … 3401_n.jpg


    everyone breathe and take a look at this url...

  11. profile image0
    Motown2Chitownposted 4 years ago

    I'm willing to bet that enough scripture has been copied and pasted on HP that we could make it an alternate reference site to Bible Gateway. smile

    1. profile image0
      Beth37posted 4 years agoin reply to this

      And enough manure spread to fertilize Iowa.
      (I love the Word... and it seems fitting on Christian Discussion.)

      1. profile image0
        Motown2Chitownposted 4 years agoin reply to this

        Probably.

        Sigh.

  12. profile image0
    Motown2Chitownposted 4 years ago

    Chris and J, this morning, yours were the first two posts I saw.  It seemed beautiful to me that the exchange took place where it did-on this Christian discussion forum.  Amazing to see Christlike and forgiving actions in progress on a thread made to discuss those things.  From a devout Christian, and one who is not a believer.  I pray with all my heart that this exchange isn't overlooked, because it really is something beautiful and godly.  smile

  13. Cat333 profile image74
    Cat333posted 4 years ago

    Rad Man, HeadlyvonNoggin, Janesix (and others involved in or following the conversation) -

    God has given natural rules to order the natural world, but these natural rules can't be forced into the spiritual realm. While here in the natural world, we get only little glimpses into the spiritual or supernatural realm. Once we leave the natural world by leaving our natural bodies, we enter the spiritual realm by the power of God. He is the Creator - he created both the unseen worlds and the seen world. Just as he created us and gave us life initially here on earth, so also he is the one who will "raise" us from the dead and create us once again, now designed to live eternally, if we are in Christ. It is written that we will even be given new spiritual bodies resembling Jesus' new body, as we now have physical bodies designed for life in the natural world.

    I understand the concern that eternal life would get boring (I get bored easily), BUT boredom (like all negative emotions) is a product of our separation from God and all he has for us and will NOT be an emotion experienced once he creates the new heavens and new earth.

    "Food is for the stomach and the stomach is for food, but God will do away with both of them. Yet the body is not for immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord is for the body. Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ?" 1 Corinthians 6:13-15 

    "He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and will present us with you."  2 Corinthians 4:14

    1. janesix profile image61
      janesixposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      Here's the thing. I too once believed in all kinds of spiritual things. Where did my beliefs come from? Books or websites I read, and then my interpretation of what those things meant. It's ALL interpretation. I interpreted facts and texts and mythology to fit my worldview. I didn't try to cherry pick, but I'm sure I paid more attention to things that seemed to go with my already present views.

      Where do you get YOUR views? Are they based on scientific facts, or just your interpretations of what you see/read/observe in the world around you? Are you basing things on "religious experience"? How do you know any of that is real? I have had it PROVEN to me that some of my "experiences" weren't real. Do you rely on intuition? I have explanations for that stuff too. My doctors had convincing information regarding that kind of thing.

      When things start to break down, when the evidence is there that your worldview isn't correct, can you then ignore that fact? Or will you try to force the facts to fit your views? Or just ignore them, like many people do?

      1. Cat333 profile image74
        Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

        A "scientific fact" is necessarily about and limited to the natural, observable world; thus beliefs and spiritual / supernatural experiences CANNOT be based on scientific fact.

        I will make this as brief as I can - my earliest memories (around age five or so) are running around outside with my sisters and WITH God - distinctly feeling his presence all around me, loving him and knowing his love, even a strange "cycling" sensation in my brain at times. No one in my life was very verbal about God (though my parents were believers). I hungered for his Word and read it at an early age, until at age ten I began having intense headaches EVERY time I read my Bible (yet at no other time and I was not in need of glasses). I stopped reading it. I only sporadically was taken to church. My mother raised me as a single parent and was often depressed, so in some ways I was on my own. I took some bad paths (developed an addiction to shoplifting; was interested in the Satanic and the sexually perverse, etc.). This pushed me farther and farther from God. During my adolescent and early adult years I still believed in God, but I pretty much ignored him and went my own way. I experienced nothing of a supernatural nature during any of these years. Then suddenly it was like I "remembered" him, I remembered that he was with me (though I hadn't felt his presence in so many years). It was like he was "calling" to me (spiritually; I didn't hear anything). I'd be in a car and noticing all the church steeples that suddenly seemed to be glowing brighter and brighter, and I'd just stare at them. I started hungering for him again. I was beginning graduate school and joined some Christian groups for the first time. In one of these groups, the young women held hands in a circle and began praying. Suddenly it was like I was being tugged inward, like I was moving even though I was standing still - it felt like when you're standing in sand and the wave comes. Waves and tugs and warmth came, and I was trying to stand against it. I was freaked out and kept flickering open my eyes during the prayer, and each time the faces of the women were closer and closer. I was trying to stand and not be drawn inward, like I was resisting it even. Then I said to God something like, "This is too much for me, you know I wasn't raised like that, I've never had THAT." And immediately it all stopped. And I was actually saddened and I felt foolish for pushing him away.

        Since that time I've experienced his manifest presence more times than I can count, and I've experienced supernatural healings. I think I've only just gotten a "taste" of what is there for us as believers. It makes you hungry for more. It's like being "high" and I compare the feeling to when I was "high" on laughing gas at the dentist (I never experimented with drugs). I often feel like I'm "searching" for him and hoping for more, but often having to wait and coming up "unsuccessful" in finding him. You can search for him and seek him, but you can't make it happen; you have to wait on him. He will make it happen.

        1. janesix profile image61
          janesixposted 4 years agoin reply to this

          Sounds like hallucinations to me. I've been there, so I know.

          1. Cat333 profile image74
            Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

            "For if we are insane, it is for God, and if we are conventional, it is for you" (2 Corinthians 5:13).

            Paul was intelligent by human standards, but he made himself "foolish" for the glory of God. David was a King, yet he made himself appear undignified by dancing to praise God. God's people throughout the Word were considered crazy, out of their minds, foolish, silly, fanatical and on and on. Those who wholeheartedly follow Jesus Christ are not "of this world" but God has "chosen them out of this world" (John 15:19). Their experiences and behaviors will not always make sense or seem sound to those who are of the world.
             
            Are there any spiritual or supernatural experiences that would NOT be attributed to hallucinations and psychosis by those who operate and understand in the natural realm alone?

            1. janesix profile image61
              janesixposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              You are equating silly behavior with psychosis. It's totally a different thing. Silly or foolish behavior is someone else's perception. Psychosis is a disease.

              "Are there any spiritual or supernatural experiences that would NOT be attributed to hallucinations and psychosis by those who operate and understand in the natural realm alone?"

              I don't know. I don't know if there's a "supernatural realm". There may be. We don't know. Thus the debate. If it can be proven by science, then it isn't "supernatural". Then it will be natural, and believable. I will only believe it if it is proven by science.

              In the mean time, I will just trust my ability of discrimination, since I can't always trust my senses.

              1. Cat333 profile image74
                Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                My point was that as God's people we'll be different, even if that makes us appear "crazy"/psychotic, foolish and/or silly. Some of God's people were perceived as foolish (e.g., Paul), some silly or undignified (e.g., David), some crazy (Paul, many prophets, Noah, on and on). God's people were not in fact psychotic, foolish, silly, drunk, etc.; they APPEARED this way to those who observed them without the Spirit.

                The mental health field does allow for spiritual experiences without labeling them psychosis. One very inconsistent aspect of my supernatural experiences with your theory of psychosis / hallucinations is that they have more often occurred during periods of LESS stress compared to periods in which I've been under much stress (opposite the expectation for hallucinations, etc.).

                1. Cat333 profile image74
                  Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  You state "If it can be proven by science, then it isn't 'supernatural'. Then it will be natural, and believable. I will only believe it if it is proven by science." If the supernatural cannot be proven by science and anything that is proven by science is natural, and if you will only believe that which is provable by science, then how can you ever believe in God by faith? It seems you are setting limits on yourself, and I understand based on your experiences. But surely there is a way for you to stay OPEN to the Spirit while still guarding against falsehood (whether by other spirits or your own mind). Much for us all to pray about, and I know many are praying for you! God bless you, Janesix!

                  1. janesix profile image61
                    janesixposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    Then I can't believe in God by faith. I will have to do without that. If God exists, it can be proven.

            2. janesix profile image61
              janesixposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              Think of this. In martial arts, some believe that the person can utilize the forces of prana, which are supposedly inside and outside the body.

              I have "felt' this while breaking boards. But what is it really? Is it prana? Or just some law of nature we haven't figured out yet? Or even a law of physics that we have, that just hasn't been attributed yet to the subject, or researched? Is it just a physical way of applying force, and aiming in the correct manner? Most likely, it is.

            3. profile image0
              Rad Manposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              You are not helping her. Please think before you type.

              1. Cat333 profile image74
                Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                You give yourself away, Rad Man. You pretend to think I am "crazy" and my own psychosis is concerning people, etc., but your words make it evident that you don't see Janesix and me both as people suffering with psychosis and both in need of help.

                1. profile image0
                  Rad Manposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  Oh, I think you need help, but I won't stand by and watch you pull others down with you.

        2. janesix profile image61
          janesixposted 4 years agoin reply to this

          Do you know that your brain can naturally produce DMT, a hallucinogen?

          1. Cat333 profile image74
            Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

            Looks like the research is mixed on whether the brain can naturally produce DMT, a hallucinogen. DMT has been found in the blood and urine of people, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was produced within the brain. Some evidence suggests it is, some suggests it isn't, from what I've seen.

            We know very little of what happens within the brain when we experience a genuine spiritual or supernatural event, either one that is from the Holy Spirit, or one that is from the demonic realm. We know the word for sorcery within the Word of God is linked to the word for pharmaceuticals. And perhaps suggesting some type of similarity in the manifestation, we are advised, "Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery (excessive indulgence in sensual pleasures). Instead, be filled with the Spirit" (Ephesians 5:18).

            Similarly, we see that some misinterpreted the actions of those filled with the Spirit to be drunkenness. In Acts 2:13-18 it is written, "Some, however, made fun of them and said, 'They have had too much wine.' Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: 'Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days."

  14. janesix profile image61
    janesixposted 4 years ago

    http://www.australiangeographic.com.au/ … megafauna/

    It's debatable. Either of us could be right.

  15. profile image55
    Sam Wightposted 4 years ago

    So here we go. I will now attempt to prove the existence of a god in a few parts.

    First part: the proving that we all have a spirit. When you hurt some part of your body, what do you say? "Ow, my (instert body part here) hurts!" How about this? What do you say when someone asks you how you are feeling? "I'm feeling very sad, but thank you." This thus proves that there is some separation between your mind and your body, that you have a soul.

    Here's more proof. Things, such as rocks, are physical objects and have physical traits that are public - viewable by anyone. Your mind has private traits - nobody can tell what you are thinking. This thus proves more that you have a soul.

    Now let's prove something else: there are heavenly beings. So now that the human has a soul, there are things that do not have souls, correct? Rocks, flowers, metals, ect. do not have souls. Humans are different. Humans have a physical body and also a soul, as we have proved. Thus it stands that if there is both physical and a combination of physical and soul, there must be beings that are entirely soul, such as angels, God, spirits, ect.

    Now this just proves that there are heavenly beings. Here is definite proof that god exists. Humans are humans, and we are amazingly smart and complex. We build human artifacts that are amazing. The world is one big artifact, but more complex than anything we have ever seen. This must imply that there is something like a human out there, but more complex. Thus, god does exist.

    1. JMcFarland profile image83
      JMcFarlandposted 4 years agoin reply to this

      You understand that simply saying something and making assertions does not count as proof,  right?   You have to actually,  you know,  prove it.   With evidence.   Even if you could somehow prove the soul,  that does not equate to proof of any God,  let alone a specific one.

      1. profile image55
        Sam Wightposted 4 years agoin reply to this

        How about this. Everyone in history admits that Jesus walked this earth, and they also admit that he died. There is undeniable proof. Criminal records, historical records, and thousands of other things all point to the fact that he died. But here is what the entire Christian belief hangs on: was he resurrected? Was Jesus truly raised from the dead because he had no sin, or was this just a hoax? Did he really die?

        Can you prove that Jesus did not resurrect? Because if not, Christianity has to be true.

        1. JMcFarland profile image83
          JMcFarlandposted 4 years agoin reply to this

          A) that's not true.   Not everyone agrees that jesus walked on earth OR died.   Reputable historical scholars with peer reviewed works say differently.

          B) even if it were true,  it's an appeal to popularity fallacy.   Do you have any non fallacious arguments?

          1. profile image55
            Sam Wightposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            This is fallacy to some, not to all, in this case, fallacy is an opinion or will be as both sides have yet to prove their case, so neither is incorrect or correct.

        2. JMcFarland profile image83
          JMcFarlandposted 4 years agoin reply to this

          Additionally,  another fallacy.   You're shifting the burden of proof.   It's dishonest.   I don't have to prove that he didn't.   You have to prove definitively that he did. You are making the positive claim.   Therefore,  the burden of proof is solely on you.

          1. profile image55
            Sam Wightposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            The burden of proof should solely be on you because you deny that he existed. Thus you should prove it wrong that Jesus did not exist.

            1. JMcFarland profile image83
              JMcFarlandposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              I don't think you understand what the burden of proof is.   I don't deny he existed.   I don't think that it's possible to know for certain either way.   The burden of proof always rests on the person making the positive claim.   You claimed that every person in history accepted that jesus both lived and died.   Not only is that the appeal to popularity,  but it's flat out wrong.   

              For example,  if someone were to claim that aliens exist,  would it be your responsibility for you to prove they didn't?   Or would you withhold belief until it was proven definitively that they did exist?   Do you genuinely not know how this works,  or are you being deliberately obtuse?

              1. profile image55
                Sam Wightposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                If you think about it, we're both making positive claims. You're defending your belief of athiesm, and I am defending mine of theism. That puts us both on the positive. Since I cannot attack you in any way, as atheists have no set standards, that puts you on the offensive, thus you have to attack me. Sorry, but that reasoning won't work here. We're looking for disproof, not proof. Because if you can disprove, you can then thus prove.

                1. JMcFarland profile image83
                  JMcFarlandposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  Do you know what an atheist is?  I'll give you a hint.  It's not a belief.  It's a lack of belief.  I lack a belief in any god.  How would you go about proving a lack of belief?  You are claiming a god exists.  I don't accept that claim without sufficient evidence.  The burden of proof rests on you.

                  Think about it this way.  In a court room, who's responsibility is it to meet the burden of proof?  The defendant does not have to prove themselves innocent.  In fact, no one is ever FOUND innocent.  They are either found guilty or not guilty.  The prosecution has to provide overwhelming evidence for guilt.  The defense only has to provide reasonable doubt.  You are the prosecutor.  The burden of proof is still on you, Sam.

                  http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php? … n_of_proof

                  If you still find the concept hard to grasp, enlighten me.  How would you disprove the existence of any other rival god?  How would you definitively prove that unicorns don't exist?

                  1. profile image55
                    Sam Wightposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    You believe on the lack of belief in the belief of a god. Exactly.

                  2. profile image55
                    Sam Wightposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    If I were to prove that unicorns don't exist, I would do it by trying to prove that they do. I would fail, and thus then the other side would win. How would you disprove that Barrack Obama is the President right now? Just thought I would give a better example than what you did.

                  3. Chris Neal profile image75
                    Chris Nealposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    I hope you know I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, but that's not true in all cases. If (as seems to have been the case for so many over in the Hitler forum) self-labeling is the true test and actions only add to the definition, not change it, then there are many atheists who actively believe that not only is there no God but that anyone who does not agree is either stupid or has some kind of psychological imbalance.

              2. Chris Neal profile image75
                Chris Nealposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                Good points. The two points that most of the apologists who I'm familiar with make are with the Apostles.

                A) That they went out and preached about Jesus. The question you are asking for proof of is the Resurrection, not His existence. Would those closest to a man who was executed as a criminal be so eager to keep on being associated with him at that time and place? Or to put that another way, when I discuss with Jewish apologists, they always talk about why Jesus could not have been the Messiah, the fact that there were many 'messiahs' (which is not an undiscussed topic in evangelical circles) and they always use the example of Bar Kokva. There are no followers of Bar Kokva today, and when he was captured his followers dispersed, yet those of Jesus not only did not but went out and preached Him with fervor.

                B) They were willing to die for their belief. If it had been a lie (sort of like the Passover Plot book) or just one or two had been fervent but the others weren't sure, would they have been willing to lay down their own lives?

                1. JMcFarland profile image83
                  JMcFarlandposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  being willing to die for something is not necessarily an indication of its truth.  Dozens of people died for Jim Jones.  Terrorists blow themselves up.  But I doubt you believe that their willingness to die is an indication that what they believe is actually true, is it?

                  I'm not saying that the apostles knew it was a lie, and were dying for it with that knowledge - although that also happens, which we see examples of in history as well.  I don't personally find the "they were willing to die for it" that convincing at all.

                  1. Chris Neal profile image75
                    Chris Nealposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    But there are some significant differences. Those who died for Jim Jones did so right then and there. Nobody who was wiling to die for Jesus did so right next to Him. And after Jones died, his followers broke up (what few there were left) and no one follows him any more.


                    Few people will be willing to die for something that they know to be untrue. Of course I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's rare. And at that time, in that place, we were rarely talking about what even by their standards could be considered a 'good' death.

                    Yeah, in and of itself that may not be the most convincing thing but taken as part of the whole, it can be fairly powerful.

        3. profile image0
          Rad Manposted 4 years agoin reply to this

          Criminal records, historical records? Birth records? Please show us.



          Can you prove unicorn don't exist? Because if not, Unicorns have to be true.

          1. profile image55
            Sam Wightposted 4 years agoin reply to this

            Non-Christian historians who recorded that Jesus lived -
            The Historical Record of Thallus (52AD)
            The Historical Record of Pliny the Younger (61-113AD)
            The Historical Record of Suetonius (69-140AD)
            The Historical Record of Tacitus (56-120AD)
            The Historical Record of Mara Bar-Serapion (70AD)
            The Historical Record of Phlegon (80-140AD)
            The Historical Record of Lucian of Samosata: (115-200 A.D.)
            The Historical Record of Celsus (175AD)

            Jewish Historians Who Admit That Jesus Existed -

            The Historical Record of Josephus (37-101AD)
            The Historical Record of the Jewish Talmud (400-700AD)
            The Historical Record of The Toledot Yeshu (1000AD)

            1. JMcFarland profile image83
              JMcFarlandposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              None of those are contemporary,  many are hotly debated in the field of textual criticism,  and not even Christians agree on them.   You know that,  right?  In fact,  multiple Christian historians concede that Josephus was a later interpolation.  The only question still debated was how much was forged.   Most of the "sources" you listed were taking about Christians and Christian claims about Jesus.   You said you had criminal records,  birth records and death records.   Are you claiming to have something that no biblical scholars who have spent their lives in the field  have?

              1. Cat333 profile image74
                Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                You can dismiss all the evidence of Jesus if you chose, JMcFarland, but it exists nonetheless. This is one of many, many examples:

                Evidence from Lucian (by Michael Gleghorn)

                Lucian of Samosata was a second century Greek satirist. In one of his works, he wrote of the early Christians as follows:

                The Christians . . . worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.{27}

                Although Lucian is jesting here at the early Christians, he does make some significant comments about their founder. For instance, he says the Christians worshipped a man, "who introduced their novel rites." And though this man's followers clearly thought quite highly of Him, He so angered many of His contemporaries with His teaching that He "was crucified on that account."

                1. JMcFarland profile image83
                  JMcFarlandposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  and Lucian is going on what Christians believe.  He got that information from Christian belief.  It's not a contemporary account of Jesus himself.

                  Additionally, I'm done with people who claim to be prophets.  I don't believe you to be a true prophet, and I really have no interest in conversing with you.  My comments were addressed to the person to whom they were intended, Sam.  Kthanks.

                  1. Cat333 profile image74
                    Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    JMcFarland - Either you're really stuck on the spiritual gift thing or it's an excuse (The many within the forums who declare truth to you through the spiritual gift of prophecy are not "special", but you seem to intentionally misinterpret what I've said.)

                    If you put falsehood out there, I'm going to put truth out there. It really has nothing to do with whether I feel like conversing with anyone or not. Of course you're free to ignore any of my posts.

                    Take care.

                2. oceansnsunsets profile image86
                  oceansnsunsetsposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  The power of sheer dismissal is very strong.  If only reality worked that way, including historical realities.

                  1. JMcFarland profile image83
                    JMcFarlandposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    I'm not dismissing anything, Ocean.  I would have thought you'd know better than that.  I'm examining the evidence where it leads, and not starting with a conclusion and working backwards.  I have never said definitively that Jesus never existed.  I don't think it's possible to know.  If I wanted to just reject it all out of hand, wouldn't I just do that and be done with it instead of continuing to examine it and discuss it?

                  2. Cat333 profile image74
                    Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    So true, oceansnsunsets!

              2. profile image55
                Sam Wightposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                Okay, if you really want to get into historical accuracy, why not look at eyewitness accounts from a wonderful book called The Bible. Hmm?

                1. JMcFarland profile image83
                  JMcFarlandposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  None of the biblical authors (who even christian scholars agree are unknown - the names weren't added for several hundred years) claim to be eyewitnesses.  You cannot use the Bible to prove the bible true, any more than I can prove that my Grimm's book of fairy tales is true because the book says it is.  That's a circular argument.  Do you know any arguments that aren't logical fallacies?

                  I know you understand circular reasoning.  the Qu'ran claims to be a direct message from an angel to Mohammed.  Do you believe it's true because it says it is?  Or are you using special pleading for YOUR book of choice, while eliminating all of the others?

                  1. profile image55
                    Sam Wightposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    They claim to be eyewitnesses, as three of them were apostles, and in order to be apostles, you had to be with Jesus since he began his missionary thingy. Can't think of the word. So thus the bible can be trusted.

                  2. Chris Neal profile image75
                    Chris Nealposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    Matthew, Peter and John DID claim to be eyewitnesses. Please explain how that is otherwise.

            2. profile image0
              Rad Manposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              Did any of those people meet him?

              The Jews that should have met him didn't think he was the son of God. They weren't convinced, but you are? What's up with that?

              1. Cat333 profile image74
                Cat333posted 4 years agoin reply to this

                Rad Man, you said, "The Jews that should have met him didn't think he was the son of God. They weren't convinced, but you are? What's up with that?"

                Here is "what's up with that" - "Did they stumble so that they would fall? God forbid! But by their offense, life came to the Gentiles, to their envy." (Romans 11:11); "For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery-- so that you will not be wise in your own estimation-- that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written (Romans 11:25-26)

              2. profile image55
                Sam Wightposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                I'm not trying to say that he was the son of god, just for right now get you to acknowledge that he was at least alive. Then we can debate that, as the resurrection is the all encompassing thing.

              3. Chris Neal profile image75
                Chris Nealposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                Which particular Jews are you talking about?

                And why would their disbelief be better proof that Jesus was NOT the Son of God than the belief of others that He IS?

                1. profile image0
                  Rad Manposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  Well, we had these very religious people with these prophesies and so they were wanting and waiting for him to come. But to the vast majority of the people at the time they didn't believe him, if they did, Jews would be Christians. Only a few followed him according to the stories and it wasn't until years later when some stories were written down did people begin to follow.

                  What changed between when he was alive and very few believed him and 50-100 years later when the stories were written?

                  1. Chris Neal profile image75
                    Chris Nealposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    Not quite. At the time, he was followed by a lot of people (the feeding of the 5,000 was the number of men who were trailing around after Him.) The Triumphant Entry was because there were a whole lot of people who were expecting Him to come in and crown Himself King of Israel (which is what they thought the Messiah would be, not the Son of God.) It's true that they all deserted Him when He didn't do that, and instead was crucified, but nonetheless at different points He had a lot of followers. A lot.

                    Very religious, yes. The Sanhedrin was indeed very religious. One of Jesus' complaints against them was that they had ladled so many extra rules onto Scripture that they couldn't recognize Him as fulfilling prophecies because they put more stock in traditions than God's Word. So yeah, their very religiosity prevented them from recognizing Him but that doesn't mean they were right.

            3. oceansnsunsets profile image86
              oceansnsunsetsposted 4 years agoin reply to this

              That is an impressive list, thank you.  People that are educated in literary criticism and history, and that care how we can know things of ancient history are impressed by such lists.  I wanted you to know I appreciate it.  And welcome to HubPages.

              I wish sometimes that people were fair in what constitutes as proof for people of history.  I don't find that most here want to do a fair study on what kinds of "evidences" there for all kinds of people even several hundred years ago.  Many here have pat answers ready to go, and talk very big, and think very highly of the power of sheer dismissal and denial.  I want to encourage you as you appear to be new.  Don't let the "outpouring" of what you experience here in any way let you think you are not on to something, in fact the response alone shows you likely are. 

              This list can give some the resources to test out for themselves whether or not these supply evidences for what you say they do.  I am a Christian, but I don't test any worldview as hard as I test my own.  It was kind of scary, in case what others were saying was true, but I wanted to know.  If it was worth trusting in, it would fare well on its own.  It has.  Most here have very strong beliefs as I have talked in depth with many.  Many that don't like the term even.  Many have very great faith as well.  I think we all do to some extent, its just is it well placed or not.  One good tip I had to learn the very hard way, is that you can't take almost anyone's word for anything here, and I would even include myself in that!  Test everything, don't be fooled by tone or words.  I have never seen a place where people say all kinds of things that if you look deeper, turned out to be absolutely otherwise.

              Long way of saying hello and welcome.    smile

              1. profile image55
                Sam Wightposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                Deleted

                1. MelissaBarrett profile image61
                  MelissaBarrettposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  Then you really shouldn't be here. Site is 18 plus.

                  1. profile image55
                    Sam Wightposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    You did not see anything.l.

              2. JMcFarland profile image83
                JMcFarlandposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                Ocean, you come after atheists and others that disagree with you daily because of their use of what you consider to be fallacious arguments and logic.  Yet you commend Sam for the same types of arguments.  Are you blind to the fallacies he's using, or are you willfully ignoring them?  Appeal to popularity?  Appeal to authority?  Outright false statements?  Shifting of the burden of proof?  Are you not seeing any of these?

                1. oceansnsunsets profile image86
                  oceansnsunsetsposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                  I saw one post, it was an impressive list!  I have seen some of those before, but you can tell he is studied, and new here.  I wanted to welcome him, I assume you have already.  I haven't read one post of his other than that one, as. I just got home. I clicked on his name, and he joined just days ago.

                  It doesn't hurt to be impressed by his list and nice does it?  I have not seen a fallacious argument, what I have seen seems fair.  I hope you kindly showed him his error with facts and reasons to back it if he actually did make them.  I dislike the unfair stuff more and respond to that, and there is plenty here in the forums, especially with outright falsehoods.  I encourage you to do the same with him, if he is actually dishonest, or actually unfair, and the same with me or anyone. The thing is, its often NOT fair rebuttals, and a lot of almost babysitting and back tracking needs to go on, etc etc.

                  1. JMcFarland profile image83
                    JMcFarlandposted 4 years agoin reply to this

                    I see.  That sheds light on a lot of issues I have with some of your posts.  Do you agree, then, with his assessment of the burden of proof and how he, as a theist, doesn't have it?