Christian Discussion
I gave you the answer straight from God's word regarding the new bodies God has promised us. I gave no interpretation for this, just the scripture. You will get a similar version from another believer who relies on God's word to answer the question. I can't say what you'll get from anyone who arrogantly speaks their own words, rather than the word of God (yes, we've all been guilty of that and so much more at times).
God's love is perfect. His people who are made in his image are not yet perfect, though praise be to God he has DECLARED them perfect in his sight and one day when he comes they will be perfected!Yet given what is written, we cannot tell the difference between those speaking the words of your God or the word of yourself, especially when someone presents a contradictory word out of the same Bible that you don't like
But you said people's love is the love of God because it is in his image Right? So either the love people display is not truly in the image of your God or the love of your God is not perfect.Some of God's word is designed to be extremely clear and there is little disagreement in such places. Some of the word is purposefully designed to be discerned - hidden gems to be found, revealed by God himself.
I say humbly that I certainly haven't been given all revelation about the hidden gems.
What I'm about to say may sound arrogant to you, but it is actually opposite of arrogant because we are not relying on ourselves (as arrogant people do), but relying on God:
Guided by the Spirit of God, many of us generally can tell the difference between those speaking the words of God and those speaking on their own, based on how closely they stick to the actual scripture and how accurately they reflect God. (That doesn't mean we don't all slip and put in our own inaccurate thoughts here or there.)
I am confident that many here on these forums are my true sisters and brothers speaking the very words of God (yes, with their humanity at times entering in). I can tell the difference, though I understand that one without the Spirit of God cannot.
We may offer a poor, hazy reflection of God's perfect love (as a rocky brook might offer a poor reflection of your face), yet any love we show does reflect (though imperfectly) the perfect love of God, who is love.You alone can tell the difference between who is saying what because you have a special power that others don't. I have the spirit of God (which has never been shown to exist) and you don't
so I'm special..
Nope, no arrogance there
Sorry, but this is an example of the very definition of arroganceDr. Lamb - It is certainly not me ALONE who can tell the difference, but untold numbers of God's people! You also have been OFFERED salvation and God's Spirit, but you must make your own choice.
Arrogance = Relying on one's own wisdom, strength, "truth", etc.
Humility = Recognizing your own great limits and humbly relying on God's wisdom, strength, truth, etc.How does God give you his wisdom? Little voices or conversations
Psalm 111:10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise." (NIV)
Proverbs 4:6-7, "Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you. Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding."
Job 28:28 "Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom, and to depart from evil is understanding." (NKJV)
Proverbs 1:7 "Fear of the Lord is the foundation of true knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline." (NLT)
James 1:5 "If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him." (NIV)
James 3:17 "But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere." (NIV)Not going to answer my question then. Isn't there something in the bible about honesty?
That is how God gives wisdom. Your question was answered according to the word of God.
God bless you, Rad Man.It's almost like you don't know. You don't do you. Be honest. How does God give you knowledge? Do you here his voice or do you have conversations with him?
God gives wisdom through his word and his Spirit. As you get to know God through his word, with the help of the Spirit who leads us to the truth, you will gain wisdom. So, for example, as you learn more and more of God's love for you and for all, you will gain the wisdom that God is love and you have no need to fear anything when you are in him and with him.
Occasionally believers audibly hear God's voice. I have "heard" a voice on only a few occasions, and even then it was likely not God the Father's voice, but a messenger. It may be that I was transported to a spiritual realm, so that I was hearing spiritually and not audibly at all. I don't know that God the Spirit can be heard audibly to our natural ear; I think he is heard only spiritually.
More often than us hearing in the natural way of things, the Spirit will "lay it on our hearts". We may be given a word that the Spirit instructs our hearts to heed (say, for example, to give someone a specific amount of money, which we later discover was the exact amount they were in need of), or we may experience something so often that it is beyond what we can assume by coincidence. God often even honors our requests for specific "signs" when we are attempting to follow his will (Because of Gideon's insecurity, he kept requesting signs, but God was patient with him).
"And behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains... but the Lord was not in the wind; after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake: And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice. And it was so." (1 Kings 19:11-13) Here we see how God is most likely to speak to us - in a still, small voice.
When God moves from the usual subtle manner to an outright supernatural occurrence, it tends to startle and even scare us naturally inclined people (I've been taken aback by the supernatural on more than one occasion). I think this tends to occur more often when we are already filled with the Spirit.
If you really want to hear from God, perhaps you could follow Samuel's example, and say "Speak, Lord, your servant is listening." But since you aren't his servant, maybe if you said, "Speak Lord, I WANT to be your servant"... Of course this assumes you actually WANT to hear from God and be his servant when you discover that he does in truth exist. And only you can determine that.
"Anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." (Hebrews 11:6)Nice, Oceansnsunsets. I agree with most of that. I think that many don't hear, because they don't want to. Since I think the reason we are here is for experience of separation, those who are still here enjoying the experience of material life don't "hear" God, because that would defeat the purpose. When we start to hear God, that may mean we are feeling the need to end the experience.
I see that was to me, but the post replied to was not from me but from Cat333? The forums are glitchy some, and I hope it gets better soon. This happened the other night, where someone responded to me, but it showed another post?
Or you could be just listening to your subconscious. Do you ask your God for things and then receive them?
We can follow our own desires and/or the leading of demons, or we can follow the lead of the Holy Spirit.
You might look at it as who/what is "feeding" our subconscious (I'm honestly not sure if this would be an accurate way to look at or phrase it or not).
If someone is instructed by the Spirit to give just the right amount of money to someone, how can this be merely their own subconscious, which would have no way of knowing the need?You gave someone just the right amount of money and you think that's divine intervention. Is that like when we give children $5 for lunch and the lunch costs exactly $5.
The Vikings thought that an eclipse ended because they prayed. Sound familiar.
Why doesn't your God whisper something in your ear about me that you can't know about me? Why not, I mean if he is giving you dollar amounts to help others why not give information to help me. You do want to help me see God right?
You may actually believe that because it validates your untruths.
2 Timothy 1: 3 I thank God, whom I serve with a clear conscience [c]the way my forefathers did, as I constantly remember you in my prayers night and day, 4 longing to see you, even as I recall your tears, so that I may be filled with joy. 5 For I am mindful of the sincere faith within you, which first dwelt in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice, and I am sure that it is in you as well. 6 For this reason I remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 7 For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power and love and discipline.
Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, 10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher. 12 For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him [h]until that day. 13 Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 14 Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.Those who have witnessed the light - honor the Heavenly King.
Those who protest and deny - will never pass into the light.
- SirDentposted 11 years ago
01Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
There are many who sleep and will not know when the Lord comes until it is too late. I am reminded of the ten virgins, five were wise and five were foolish. The wise virgins kept their lamps trimmed and ready, watching and waiting because they knew the Master was coming. The foolish virgins used up their oil and their lamps went out. They had no idea the Master was coming and were not ready for Him.
We must be ready to see Him when He appears. We can't be ready if we are asleep. We must keep our lamps trimmed and burning because when He comes, we won't have time to get more oil.
Trust in God to keep you. He will give us all the oil we need if we do. - SirDentposted 11 years ago0
Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
Many say they want truth but when it is shown or told them, they reject it. They even go so far as to make an enemy of the one speaking truth to them.
This shows me that what they want is to be lied to and told everything is all good and nothing bad will ever happen to them. No matter how many times I am called a liar, made fun of and mocked, I will speak truth.Or perhaps you don't have the truth after all. Just maybe others don't see your truth because it's not the truth at all. It doesn't help to just claim it's the truth, you have to demonstrate that it's the truth. All you've done so far is post scripture.
SirDent speaks the truth, Rad Man, take it or leave it!
Or perhaps you don't have the truth after all. Just maybe others don't see your truth because it's not the truth at all. It doesn't help to just claim it's the truth, you have to demonstrate that it's the truth.
Sorry - a bible quotation is evidence the bible contains that verse. It is certainly not evidence of truth as half the bible is false to fact.
I'm sure you do understand that when someone wrote down something 16,000 years ago, claiming it was the work of someone 400 years prior to that who in turn claimed it was the words of Jesus, a man that cannot be found in any other record, well, it takes a little more than being in the only book to have those words before deciding that it's all true. You have to demonstrate that it's the truth whether it is your particular holy scripture or not - others do not take your personal scripture as Truth with a capital T.2 Timothy 3:16, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness."
2 Peter 1:21, "For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."
Acts 5:38-39, "If this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown; 39but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God."
But you don't have any truth. I reject all the nonsense you preach. Does that make me your enemy? The truth is - your beliefs are divisive nonsense. But - you don't want the truth.
It is your right and your choice to reject the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ, Righteous Atheist.
Truth divides - light and darkness are divided, the works of God and the works of Satan are divided, the "sheep" and the "goats" are divided, the crop and the weeds are divided, goodness and evil are divided...
"The word of God is alive and active. Sharper than a double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12)
Within a certain context, Jesus, the prince of peace, himself stated "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword" (Matthew 10:34).
It is not true love to offer you a "feel-good" religion. It is true love to offer you the TRUTH! That truth will divide you from others, that truth will divide even you yourself, as it divides your inner being!
Enemy of the cross or not, I love you still. In truth, if you were before me hurting or in need of help, I would sincerely and lovingly give it to you. Many have persecuted God and his church before one day finding the truth, and becoming our sisters and brothers.
Whatever your final choice may be (and neither of us really knows yet, just as we don't know how much longer you have to make the choice), I hope the best for you. May the God of all compassion and mercy be gracious to you.
- Deepes Mindposted 11 years ago0
This is a PSA: I actually decide to peek in and I see my name mentioned a few times. I haven't really been active in a few weeks. Leave Deepes out of any points. I'm not in this.
Haha. Is it her fault you are famous and your name pops up everywhere? I think not.
I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone directly. That's why I posted a general reply rather Than a direct one. I am aware that my name was first mentioned by a friend, but it was repeated by others. My comment was a general one to friends and non friends alike.
On a side note, its kinda nice to know I'm thought of even in my absence. Gives me the warm and fuzzies
- Motown2Chitownposted 11 years ago0
When did it become impossible for us to see each other as individuals? I'm entirely fed up with being lumped in as part of this "gang" or "group" that's out to insult and wound and aggravate Christians. There are two reasons for this: first, I am one. But I am in no way afraid to acknowledge flaws within my belief structure or the institutions that perpetuate it. Second, I am a person who thinks for myself and is willing to address those thoughts individually with anyone who cares to ask about them. I'm not afraid of what anyone thinks of me and I'm not afraid to say what I think or feel. I do not need to hide behind a big, bad gang. That said, if you want to talk about me, I'd prefer that you talk to me - because I will certainly ALWAYS extend that courtesy. Thanks.
Enjoy the rest of the night, folks.I can only assume you're talking to me Michele, unless you are angry with Melissa or Radman for lumping you in with them?
I'm actually speaking in general, because I don't like it, but specifically I am addressing you and Emile. Melissa and Rad are both familiar enough with me to say what they think about me directly to me. I get frustrated with the overall assumption that because we are friendly, we must be some sort of collective out to rule the world (or at the least, the HP forum...lol).
It will happen often that people agree with each other. Just as often, people will disagree. But at the end of the day, we need to all put our big girl panties on and deal with it like adults. Adults talk to each other when they have something to say, not to everyone else.I don't believe I was wrong in saying that you were friends with them.
I did talk directly to you about it today and you apologized for coming across unkindly.
You do seem to be at it again, but that's ok. I was ready to lay all this to rest, but you seem to want to pick it up? I really don't enjoy the bickering. Melissa and I finished our discussion.I see you've alluded to me directly. Back off. Please. I call them as I see them. If you don't like it you might check your own big girl panties.
And you don't see your's and Beth's little show of unity as cross-validation... It happens quite a bit. Enough that I've wondered whether you two are a matching pair of socks.
Pot...Kettle.
Seems like those big girls gave you a wedgie.Your explanatory post came at the same time as mine. I was just about to address it. Sure, it isn't uncommon for those who occasionally agree to appear united. Beth, I'm not back at anything except saying I don't like that people make assumptions about me without talking to me. Emile, I agree with your points about that. As to your request to "back off" I have no problem with that. I've no need to either reach consensus on this issue or to be right at anyone's expense.
Beth, my smart aleck remark last night was playfulness. It really had nothing to do with anything. I found Melissa's remark funny. I followed suit. Apparently, you aren't the only one who has trouble with people "getting" your sense of humor.
Sigh. What a mess these conversations turn into. It's really no wonder that most people choose to participate anonymously. If you have any sort of sensitive nature at all, this place can be brutal.Hey. Instead of a few Hail Mary's for the faux pas, just play scrabble with her to make amends. That should do it.
Actually, that could work!
I am a huge fan of online Scrabble. I've lost many an hour of sleep playing that game.That's one reason I leave the lap top at the office. When it's here I convince myself I can't sleep so I can go downstairs and play.
I would just like to clarify that the only time I mentioned your name, I was talking about "Christians"... I included myself in that group.
At one point I said "Melissa and her group" although never mentioned you. I guess you assumed you were included in that post.
So, just to be clear, this morning, when I had an issue with you, I discussed it with you.Just to point out... that issue was over a smiley face and a two word quote from a 1950's movie. No over-sensitivity there...
Talk about over sensitivity.
. Can you say pot kettle?Do you? Are you any good? I love Pogo scrabble, but few will play long. They leave when they get behind. I don't understand that. When I'm losing (which isn't often) I stay to the end out of courtesy.
Actually I am good. But it's just about the only game I like.
Do you play on Pogo? If so, if you want to play some time tell me your user name and I'll try to figure out how to look you up when I'm near my computer and signed on.
I don't play pogo no. I don't have time cause if I play any online game, I have like 50 scrabblers waiting on me to play. (Scrabblers are viscous, they will force forfeit you if given the chance.) I have work and kids so I usually can't play till late night or one of my days off.
You wouldn't want to try FB scrabble would you?I fear Face Book. I refuse to join. I bought a new couch and everyone was saying 'oh, you should join face book and post a picture'. What's up with that? Why would people want to see a picture of my couch? It's so mundane. It sounds like everyone is sharing the most minute aspects of their lives. I find the trivialities of life boring. I'd hate to share or have to feign interest when others did.
Yes. I'm awful.Are you saying you don't want to see a picture of my lamp? You obviously have no heart.
Actually, Emile, I find that interesting. I hate details and the mundane as well.
Oddly enough, I have no one on my FB home page. It's all organizations, b/c everyone's posts feel intrusive. If you ever decide to join FB, just ask. I will give you the full tour of how to not be annoyed by the 500 friends you have, but never spend any real time with, if you can help it.Maybe someone could start a thread, and we'll all post a picture of our ugliest piece of furniture.
It could be fun, you never know.Could I just take a picture of the Christmas tree lit up next to me now and feel the same amount of shame?
It is March right? I thought I was late taking my tree down...lol
That's okay. Sometimes it's nice to stretch out the season a bit.Literally, all of my Christmas decorations are still up, but to be fair, it snowed Monday. Don't judge. My Monday was beautiful.
I'm not judging. I just put my decorations away myself. But, we were in a turmoil here. I let a family of seven move in, to help them out. New to the country and struggling. They moved out a couple of weeks ago and I've been occupied getting the house back in order. I'd moved everything around to make room for them.
That was lovely of you. You have the gift of hospitality.
Not really. I just had room and thought it was the right thing to do. They were funny. Thought I'd be upset when they moved out. I don't get people. We just kind of looked at them when they asked if we'd be mad. I don't think people understand the value of being able to walk around half naked. We've been reveling in the privacy since they finally moved.
I'm telling you. Callous and cruel are my middle names.
I keep up with family on my Facebook, but mostly I promote my book and post advice and encouragement daily
I don't really see any "groups" or gangs here. Short term maybe, but it seems pretty changing and dynamic to me.
I've seen other forums that were way more cliquish than this one.There are some that are friends outside of HP. I can bring up threads where we've argued with each other too. The group thing is an illusion perpetrated by people with exclusion issues.
It's kind of weird though, there seems to be a ton of fighting between a lot of different people the last few days.
It seems like there's a new fight or two every day.That's how it usually goes. It doesn't help when people bring arguments from one thread to another.
You're probably right. I've only just been coming here a lot recently (practically living here, it's a little embarrassing that this is my current social life) so I'm just getting used to every one I guess. I used to just pop in and out, but lately that's not the case.
I'm essentially useless to the world right now, so yeah, I've been here too much too.
Some of us are friends away from HP, Jane. We respect and value one another in spite of our differences. We argue a lot on the forums, but we do coincidentally agree on some things in the middle of it all. You should hear us outside of the forums. The way we argue away from here would get all of our accounts shut down... LOL. But the key thing that bonds us is the understanding that our religious beliefs (or lack thereof) are only one aspect of who we are
I didn't know that some of you knew each other until today. That's cool.
We met here on the forums and gravitated to each other. We have very different stories, perspectives, and personalities. We argue as much as(if not more than) we agree. Unfortunately, the others have a hard time accepting that I'm right and as such the smart one...lol
Yup. He's the "smart one." At least we let him think that
I'll take that as partial admission. Works for me...lol
You need to make up your mind. Are you going to be the smart one, or are you going to be the devastatingly handsome yet unavailable essence of male perfection? You and Rad can't keep switching back and forth. It confuses us poor hapless females.
Right?! They really need to pick a seat and stay in it!
I'm both. Rad just hasn't come to terms with it yet
You know, you two could settle it like gladiators... in an arena...in togas and sandals...with sharp pointy things and baby oil... and jello... and...
Wait, what we talking about again?Hmmm, we have a perplexing conundrum here. Let's take it for granted that your better looking, and if you can tell me what's wrong with my first sentence I'll give you smarter as well.
What's wrong? You mean other than you repeating yourself by using two different words to mean the same thing or that you used two big words (presumably with autocorrect) . By the way, I'm proud that you learned them...lol
I'm sorry. Who are you again?
Just kidding. Good points, but it's been my experience here that few want to see people as individuals. I'm constantly accused of thinking things I've never thought and saying things I've never said. I'm considered a believer for disagreeing and an atheist for disagreeing, depending on the party involved.
But, I also see a lot of feeding off of each other here and to say there aren't those who tag team an opposing view by belittling and attempting to intimidate with hostility is wearing rose colored glasses. Imo.
- Motown2Chitownposted 11 years ago0
Oh...and no, I have no problem with your statement about me and Melissa being friends. I'm also friends with others here outside of HP. It doesn't shame or bother me to have that made public.
lol... So hard to imagine why you thought that I thought that would shame you???
Oy. I was truly hoping this was over 10 min. ago.Beth...there isn't anything to be over.
I don't like something and I say so. End of story. I can't (and I mean I am fundamentally incapable of doing so) hold a grudge. More than that, I don't like to. Takes too much energy and makes people miserable to be around.
That's all. I'm not mad or anything. Promise.I understand, but did you see my post about not having mentioned your name? So in my mind, it was a whole lot of hoopla over nothing. And you did say you had directed it at me, so I felt I should address it.
Hmm. It wasn't over mentioning my name per se...although you did use my name, my real one, in a response to Melissa. It was in general regarding the gang/group accusations. I'm really over it. Wasn't ever anything more than irritated anyway.
- SirDentposted 11 years ago0
Mat 15:32 Then Jesus called his disciples unto him, and said, I have compassion on the multitude, because they continue with me now three days, and have nothing to eat: and I will not send them away fasting, lest they faint in the way.
Let us address each other with decorum.I believe in this world there is more room for love than for hate.
- SirDentposted 11 years ago0
Mat 15:36 And he took the seven loaves and the fishes, and gave thanks, and brake them, and gave to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude.
Mat 15:37 And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the broken meat that was left seven baskets full.
Mat 15:38 And they that did eat were four thousand men, beside women and children. - Rad Manposted 11 years ago0
Well, I guess you are smarter than me as well. It's okay cause I'm older and will most likely die first. I've got you there. In your face (imagine Homer Simpson's voice).
Three down, one to go!
And yep I'll give you the age thingYou will NEVER get my vote for smartest. I'll out history you every time.
Yeah well I'll out... I'll out....
Yeah I got nothing.No, no I really won't. I don't want to win the competition that badly.
Oh, you mean I'll have more kids than you? Well, yeah. So my role in the group (pack, clan, click whatever) is the human Pez dispenser?Roflmao. Do we get clan tartans? Just saying
Every time I see a Pez dispenser, I'm going to think of you.
I'm having kilts made for the guys as we speak.
Clan Brattahan we be.I hate purple, and I won't wear a skirt OR a kilt. Damnit
She said she's having them made for the GUYS. Pay attention, silly.
That.
I'm not wearing a kilt or a skirt either.
I'll have mine framed and hung on a wall but you'll never catch me wearing one..
Rad Man on the other hand...
I'd wear it. I'd be willing to bet RA is wearing one right now.
A kilt is easy when one humiliates himself all summer wearing spandex cycling shorts (me).
I am lucky enough to live in a place where this is not humiliating.
Not me.. I don't have the legs to pull it off
Melissa - just one kid would out birth him. If my Pez dispenser only gave me one candy, I'd be pissed!
- SirDentposted 11 years ago0
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. - SirDentposted 11 years ago0
“God, that comforteth those that are cast down.” - 2Co_7:6
Remember when you were a child and skinned your knee or got hurt in some way? Nothing could comfort you like mom could. She knew just the right words to say and how to treat your wounds.
God is like a mother because He knows how to comfort those who have been cast down. Jesus told His disciples that He must go away but that He would pray to the Father to send another comforter. The Holy Ghost can comfort us like no one else can. He knows what we need even before we do. He has the power to comfort when things seem to be the worst they have even been.
We should let God comfort us when we feel cast down, trodden underfoot, hurt, bruised and abused. No one can help us like He can.Does a grown man need mommy to kiss is booboo?
+1
Took the words right out of my mouth.SirDent, my brother, came to my defense when people here attempted to falsely and slanderously say I would advocate the victimization of children. SirDent is truly a man of noble character!
Thank you, SirDent!Interesting Beth. I get associated with the KKK and you say nothing, but nod in agreement.
If you do not understand something, ask. You shouldn't make up stories b/c you think making others look bad makes you look good. If you need a lawyer to defend you, you might want to hire someone else. I seldom agree with a single word you say, I wouldn't be the best one to hire.
Yes, the morally repugnant will defend the morally repugnant.
When there are many words, sin is unavoidable, but the one who controls his lips is wise.
Prov 10:19So says the crowned forum queen. Perfect.
Are you now "name calling", EncephaloiDead, calling me and others "morally repugnant"? Surely you would not "resort" to this, as you have said another "resorted" to name-calling when she called out your scoffing/bullying. I hope you never call anyone a hypocrite after this clear display of hypocrisy.
How many times have you called everyone who isn't born again a sinner. Is it just okay for you?
I don't actually tell people they're "sinners" except to say we're ALL sinners, and that God has so mercifully offered a way for us to be cleansed and made righteous and sinless through Jesus' sacrifice of himself. This is truly beautiful, wonderful news.
But it's B.S. How can you claim you don't call anyone a sinner and admit that you call everyone a sinner and then you claim you are no longer a sinner. Just everyone else but you.
I don't say anyone IN PARTICULAR is the sinner, but that we are ALL sinners. Then by the GRACE of God, ALL who come to him in faith are cleansed from any and all sins - God makes ALL his children righteous, and God permits ALL to come to him and become his children if they choose (He will not force them).
In other words, you would never say exactly what you actually do say.
I never actually tell people I golf, except when I go golfing.
It is your words here that are morally repugnant, I don't know much about you personally other than you are JCSimonelli who was recently banned.
Yes, I believe she had a "moment" when she went pretty much incoherent and called someone the spawn of Satan. Not jokingly, seriously. Which I guess I had always know people did or the joke wouldn't be around, I've just never seen anyone actually do it.
Don't tell me, let me guess, she said that to another Christian?
No, actually. To a very respectful... well honestly I don't know what the hell he is. The really smart one that is currently arguing with Headly in another thread.
Your words speak for themselves.
There was no slander involved. Anyone who wishes to go back in the thread and see for themselves is welcome to.Falsely accusing me of supporting the killing of one's children in order to spare them pain on earth, and falsely accusing me of supporting violence against children through exorcism are both SLANDER, as I said not one word about us killing children or engaging in violent behavior toward children, and I would NEVER advocate such. You can deny it all you want - it was in fact slander.
Since I have done you no wrong, janesix, but only hoped well for you, I must conclude that there is more to your desire to support slander of me. What is the purpose of this slander; what is to be gained from discounting me through false portrayals?
Some of you here are very "see-through" in your motives!Perhaps you misspoke. Because a lot of people were concerned when you went on about how it's better for suffering children to go straight to heaven.
"A lot" of people were "concerned", huh? It wasn't so much that I misspoke as that I left myself too open for those who desired to manipulate my words.
God alone has the right and the responsibility to determine when his children go home to him. Being in heaven with God is far better than being here (at all, and most especially in a state of great suffering). This is truth. Yet recognizing this does NOT imply we take any murderous actions, and to say I am saying such is slanderous.
Were you truly concerned? Because even if you looked at it statistically it was HIGHLY unlikely I would promote murder of children. It appeared less about concern and more that you wanted to portray me as evil for your own purposes.Speaking for myself, I don't care how you are portrayed.
I am concerned about the thought process spreading. Parents who think that way -STATISTICALLY-are more likely to load the minivan up with the kiddies and drive it into a lake.The "thought process" spreading? When speaking of the faith of others helping us, I referred to scriptures in which the parents' faith led our Lord to free their children from demons (which Jesus did lovingly). I said nothing more. Do you now wish to censor the word of God, so that no one will ever mention those scriptures again?
Parents who think what way - That people, including juveniles, can have demons in them? I understand from other posts that you do not accept the truths within the word about the devil, demons, evil spirits, hell and the like. It seems we either believe the word or we don't; If we pick and choose...Do you eat bacon? Do you eat raisins? Do you do any of the hundreds of things the Bible tells us not to do? Yes, yes you do.
Yes, the thought process that people can be possessed by demons is exceedingly dangerous and gets children killed. Are you OK with that?
ARE YOU OKAY WITH YOUR RELIGION CAUSING CHILDREN TO DIE?
Yes or no. Not any crap, yes or no.What's even worse is that sometimes people murder there own children because they believe they will go straight to heave because of their innocence.
That's the part of Christianity that drives me batty. Christians think the institution is perfect, that no harm could ever possibly come from it. They refuse to acknowledge the horrible things that it causes so they never get fixed. They just keep happening. Then Christians can shrug it off with the "Not a real Christian" crap.
We were talking of the word of God, not an "institution". It is not the word or Christianity that causes "horrible" things to happen, but the twisting and distorting of the word and the way. This distortion is from the devil, not from the word and not from Christianity.
Yeah, still didn't get a yes or no.
Hearing lots of excuses. Lots of bending definitions. No responsibility.
*Sighs* That's why our religion causes so many deaths.
The LAW with its many, many commandments and its penalty of death for disobedience, which no person could fully keep, was fulfilled by the perfect, sinless Jesus Christ FOR US. Since the righteous requirements of the law have been fully met in Jesus, we no longer must try to keep to the letter of the law. Now we live by the Spirit and obey the Spirit of the law.
So you would like us to censor the word of God - remove anything that might be twisted or misused by the wicked? But wait, that's everything, because the deceiver (that is, the devil) can twist and misuse any and everything.You didn't answer my question. Are you OK with your religion causing the death of children? You type novel-length posts, a simple yes or no should be easy.
My "religion" or the "way" of Christianity does NOT cause the death of children. The twisting and distorting of God's words by the wicked causes deaths of the innocent. The wicked may distort any and everything. We can't eliminate the truth in order that no one will distort it.
That is somewhat true, but you did say God causes the death of the children. Then, you said that was a very good thing.
That is absolutely NOT true. I can pull up thousands of examples of parents killing their kids because of their faith in God. THOUSANDS. It is indeed Christianity.
Hold the phone here! Have we just done a role reversal?
Nope. I've always admitted the role of Christianity in the wide variety of horrible things that it's been a part of. Not to is blind and dangerous (Those who ignore the past.... yada yada)
In this instance there's no wiggle room. Bible says kid is possessed by Demons. Parents believe it. Kid dies as a result of the attempted removal.
This is a case of the parents listening to the Bible-like good Christians-and the kid dying from it. Straight cause and effect.
Nope, the parents that do it are embraced by the church and considered members of the community. Sorry. If the Bible is telling them their children are possessed and they have them exorcised and the kid dies from it, it IS your religion. Mine too.
I can admit that and work to change it. You apparently can't.
Again, Yes or No? Is your faith so weak that you can't say either?
Melissa - I've already made clear my position that it is not the word of God or the way of Christianity that is causing the death of children, but rather the DISTORTING of the truth that is causing the deaths; therefore, I clearly cannot answer a question that involves a false assumption within it with either a yes or a no.
Does the word of God say that "you should not suffer a witch to live"? As a result, children in Africa are being tortured and killed by Christians, just like the history of the church in the West a few hundred years ago? You're saying that Satan wrote that verse that is causing so much pain?
I can do one better than that...
How about the countless indigenous tribes that suffered extinction at the hands of well-meaning Christian missionaries that were spreading the word of God? (And smallpox, influenza... hell in some cases the common cold)
Nope, not real Christians... their purpose was twisted by Satan. They were all evil. Evil, evil missionaries led by Satan.
They obviously were guided by the devil and warped the meaning of
"And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation."
So, the parents that read the Bible, believe their children are possessed by demons, seek help from Clergy and kill their children during the process aren't listening to the Bible-that says children can be possessed by demons- and they aren't real Christians-because they sought help from their clergy?
Really?
And, there you have it, the "clause" of all clauses for the hypocrites to fall back upon as they wag their fingers at others.
Please see the response to Rad Man I just posted, which addresses your concern.
I defended someone you picked on, that's all. I love you still, Encephaloidead. We all sin in many, many ways. May God bless you!
Right, right, right. No need to obey the commandments anymore because you can censor it. I get that. You like bacon, we're good.
What? Only you can censor Gods word? Are we back to eating bacon or not?This is not censorship of the word of God, it is fulfillment of the law by Jesus Christ himself.
We don't live by the law, but rather we became aware of sin because of the law and we became aware of our need for a Savior by way of the law. This was the purpose of the law.
"The righteous shall live by faith". We live by our faith in Jesus, not the letter of the law, which brought death, as the law required death for those who disobeyed it (i.e., all of us). All praise to Jesus Christ and God the Father for freeing us from the law that brought death and giving us the way to life!
The Spirit of the law is the same for ALL who are led by the Spirit; it is the law of love. If we love God and love others, see how we will follow the ten commandments, regardless of whether we even know them - In love we will put God first; in love we will honor our parents; out of love we will not steal from anyone; out of love we will not sleep with their spouse; out of love we will not murder them and so on. So love fulfills the Spirit of the law.
And if we fail even at this? God will give us more grace and help us to become more and more like him - that is, more and more loving. All praise to God!If the law was fulfilled in the life and death of Jesus, why would you need the ten commandments or follow them? Why would you use anything in the old testament to condemn homosexuals or anyone else? Or do you just pick and choose at will what you want to follow and what you don't like?
And why the hell can one eat bacon but not drink a cup of coffee? Just as an aside...
Isn't cj/cat/whoever a Mormon anyway? Didn't she say that in one of her original threads? A group that several Christians would not consider to be a "true Christian" anyway?
From what I understand yes... although from what I understand the feeling is mutual.
Unfortunately, my faith requires I claim as Christian all those who claim to follow Christ. You know, because of that whole judge not thing. One big dysfunctional family.
cat333. Praise God dear sister. Thank You for sharing the love of God as you do. Well done good and faithful servant. Keep going precious child of God. Phil 4:13. U will! I love your clear and scriptural answer. You are right on; the law was given to point us to the reason we need a Savior. Not one, no not one except Jesus can keep the law. Praise God through His blood we are forgiven and made clean as snow. AMEN. May God continue to work in you and in all who choose to come to the forum and share the love of Christ Jesus. Hugs Galore. My Love in Christ Jesus, Skye
I don't need a savior. We are our own saviors. With God's help yes, but we have to do the hard part.
How can we be our own Savior? We all fall short the glory of God. In other words no one forgives our sin except Jesus. No one except Jesus went to the cross and died a brutal death for our sins. No one but Jesus gets us into heaven. Yes we have a part to play. We must ask Jesus into our heart as Lord of our life and repent of sin. We can work on ourselves until we are blue in the face but we will continue to make errors. Our good works do not get us into heaven. There is life after planet earth Our Spirits pass on to eternity. If we do not know Jesus we will be judged for our sin. We make the choice in this lifetime. ME SELF AND I get me into allot of trouble. I make decisions that are based on self that put me and others in harms way.. This world is not about self but what we can do to help others. Without God it is empty. We all need a Savior. I need a guide, teacher, comforter, friend and helper. I need Jesus who forgives me and helps me to walk this life with Him. There is no better..Jesus fills the hole I once had that nothing else filled. May God Bless you dear woman. Love Skye
No one here has a problem with the fact you need a guide, teacher comforter... whatever, and that you have found an invisible friend to fill that hole, but your lack of being able to be your own person and find meaning in your life does not mean we need the same guide, teacher, comforter... whatever, as you. Many of us are quite capable of finding meaning in our lives and we look to a great number of scholars, thinkers, philosophers to help us understand ourselves and the world around us, not just one invisible friend.
To focus on only one and not the others is close minded and will only serve to make one ignorant of everything else.Perhaps God is calling you today to repentence. Just maybe He is callling you. We are mortal and we do die. There is eternity. Seek after Christ because He is the one who died for the sins of the world. Death will usher us into the presence of God. If you deny Jesus while you live than you too will be denied eternal life with God. You will be seperated from Christ for eternity. GOD IS LIGHT. There will be no light, no peace where there is no GOD. This is why us Christians come to the forum. It is not to say we are better it is to tell you the good news of SALVATION. No one, no one but Jesus will get you into heaven. Not by works do we go to heaven so none can boast. We must know Jesus. What if we beleivers are right? John 3:16. Out of all the nay sayers in all of time not one stands out? Why is that because his philosophy is just that. Man made jargon. Only Jesus stands out because HIS Word is life and truth. His word has always stood the test of time. NOT one can disprove the WORD of GOD. Do not put off Jesus before it is too late. We too had to ask Jesus into our hearts as Lord and Savior and acknowledge we were sinners. Jesus will change your life. He is the way truth and life.
My Love, In Christ. SkyeYour invisible super friend is not calling me, that is all in your head.
You nor anyone can know that, it is just another irrational belief.
No, he didn't, he was crucified just like many others were crucified for being convicted enemies of the Roman state.
Irrational fantasy.
If that means I don't have to spend an eternity with deluded, irrational, ignorant Christians, I'm all for that.
Irrational fantasy.
No one here wants to hear that, we can read the bible for ourselves, thank you very much.
Irrational fantasy.
I know you believe that no matter how good a person is their entire lives, they will still burn for an eternity if they don't accept your invisible super friend. Morally repugnant.
You aren't right, if reason and logic have anything to do with it.
Jesus will not change my life one iota because we are not sinners and we don't need an invisible super friend because we have grown up into adults and no longer fantasize childish things.It is a pity you hate Jesus and Christians. Why I am not sure? Who so harmed you that you so deny Jesus and God the Father? The Creator of the universe? The Light of the World?
The enemy of this world; Satan deceives the world. He is the father of lies the god of this world. He is a thief. He comes only to steal, kill, destroy. John 10:10.
I feel for you E. Truly I do. One day before it is too late I pray the blinders fall off of you. In Christ Jesus, SkyeIs there some reason why you made up that lie considering I never said anything of the sort?
No one harmed me, quite the contrary. I reject your childish believes because they are exactly that, childish.
That is just another irrational childish belief. Are you ten years old?
And, I hope someday you grow up to become an adult.Why do you think that disagreeing and criticizing a belief equals hatred? You disagree with atheists. Does that mean that you hate atheists?
JMcFarland - Jesus did indeed fulfill the requirements of the law for us; we need only accept this gift from him. "There is no difference, ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". In Christ, there is not even male or female (Galatians 3:28), so then there is no gay/lesbian or straight IN CHRIST, but rather we are all ONE with whatever differing gifts and difficulties we possess.
Being gay/lesbian or straight is so temporal. In heaven we are told there will be no marriage but rather we will be "like the angels" (Mark 12:25), so then there will be no gay or straight. Even as we age here on earth we become more and more asexual. Many people focus on the homosexuality laws because they feel free from condemnation when they focus on ones they aren't tempted in or don't violate. Jesus came to free us from the penalty of death, regardless of which law we were breaking (and all break the laws).
According to the law a "witch" was to be put to death, just as according to the law we ALL are to be put to death for something. But God in his mercy paid with his own death / the death of his beloved Son, so now none of us, including witches, are to be put to death. Instead, we are all free to answer the call and come to God, witches or anyone else, and he will lovingly receive us and transform us in his own way and time (which will not be completely until we are at home in heaven with him).
Melissa - If one exercises their freedom and eats bacon and praises God for the bacon this is commendable; If one refrains from eating bacon because they are trying to please God this too is commendable. If one exercises their freedom and drinks coffee and praises God for the coffee, this is commendable; if one refrains from drinking coffee in order to please God this is commendable. "The kingdom of heaven is not a matter of food and drink" (Romans 14:17). We may even have wine; we are warned only about drunkenness because of the dangers and damage this may cause.Really?
That's the question you chose to answer? The coffee one?
OK, so let's go with coffee... imagine you had to give your child coffee or he would die. (Actually, this really isn't a made up scenario... It actually happened) God said no (Or actually one of the wives of some preacher person somewhere did because she didn't like it). Do you go against that?So I guess it stands to reason that if one exercises their freedom and murders and praises God for the murder this is too commendable?
Dr Lamb - The kingdom of God is not a matter of food and drink, therefore no food or drink needs to be a concern once we are freed from the letter of the law, which was already fulfilled by Christ himself.
Murder, on the other hand, violates the Spirit of the law, which is love. Murder (humans killing the innocent) therefore is never going to be commendable before God.You remind me of a friend who doesn't eat pork, but eats bacon.
I thought you guys thought a sin was a sin.
And here I thought the Kingdom of God was not a matter of food, drink or murder therefore no food, drink or murder needs to be a concern once we are freed from the letter of the law, which was already fulfilled by Christ himself.
Is murder different than killing for you. For instance in times of war, is killing others murder or is it only murder if they are from your own country?Isn't that something you should telling your God who ends the lives of many innocent children every day?
1. It would help if you actually responded to the person that you're talking to, showing their posts so that it's easier to follow what you're saying, rather than responding to yourself.
2. Who determines what the letter of the law, vs. the spirit of the law is? You? Who decides that? Isn't it, by definition, open to interpretation - and if it's based on personal interpretation, isn't it therefore subjective, and cannot be classified as the word/will of god?
JMcFarland and Melissa - I'm not sure what you're talking about, but I am NOT a Mormon. I do not accept the book of Mormon, which contradicts the word of God it claims to be an addition to. I am a Christian; I have no particular denomination.
You seem to stand as accuser with the Atheist against every believer with the exception of 2.
I'm sorry... is there some reason that I should change my opinions and stand with those I obviously don't agree with to show some sort of Christian solidarity?
I don't like dead children. I don't like philosophies that lead to dead children. I think we should probably stop encouraging them. I don't think Jesus liked dead children either. I could be wrong, but I didn't get that vibe from him.Which of the believers did you think preferred children being dead?
I think the Christians I was speaking to preferred to ignore the fact that the way they are presenting the word is dangerous and leads to dead children rather than admit that their religion has flaws that could lead to such a thing.
In their compulsion to prove that Christianity is just peachy and all those who disagree with them are wrong, they have adopted the attitude that any and all collateral damage is fine because nothing is more important than their faith... which therefore makes it perfect.
Christianity is not perfect, there are parts of it that are quite dangerous and by ignoring those parts in the campaign to convert, Christianity is actually proving the atheists right. I think that some Christians would actually wade in the blood of children rather than admit that the secular world has a point. So yes, I believe that if the options are admitting that the faith is flawed or dead children... some Christians would prefer dead children."If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea."
Mark 9:42
"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."
James 1:27
"Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
Mt 19:14
"For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me."
Mt 25:35-40
Jesus heals boy with unclean spirit: Mark 9
Jesus heals Jairus' daughter: Mark 5
What scripture's are you reading that cause you to believe that?Beth, what do any of those scriptures have to do with anything we are talking about?
Here are your words:
"Christianity is not perfect, there are parts of it that are quite dangerous and by ignoring those parts in the campaign to convert, Christianity is actually proving the atheists right. I think that some Christians would actually wade in the blood of children rather than admit that the secular world has a point. So yes, I believe that if the options are admitting that the faith is flawed or dead children... some Christians would prefer dead children."
I printed verses from the Bible which have to do with children. I could print a dozen more though it would be redundant. Comparing your description of Christianity and children and the bibles description of Christianity and children... I am not getting the same picture. This is why I asked where you have pulled your synopsis from as I don't believe it's biblical and if it's not biblical, it's not of Christ.Oh, I was comparing the actual dead children that come from people believing their children are possessed by demons -because the bible says that can happen- and them killing them. Do you want links?
Do you mean to say you have some links to stories about some incredibly awful parents? Yes, I can imagine. They come in every form with every excuse.
Here's the thing Melissa, life is not a pissing contest and though you may not believe it, I'm not trying to be mean. When it comes to the love and mercy of God, we are all in desperate need. We have all gone to bed broken hearted and woken up not wanting to face a new day... this is life for the saved and the unsaved. Our need for God is great and it cannot be reduced to a game. It's time to decide who you will serve. You don't have to agree with me, you don't have to take sides with one or the other, but when it comes to your Creator and you... you need to decide if you love Him or not.
If you ever want to talk privately, I know you dislike me, but I would set all this ridiculous garbage aside and just talk to you any time you wanted... phone or email. I would love to go on a walk right now and get to know you as a real person (on the phone) if you could ever find it in your heart to put forum crap aside. Just let me know... I don't gossip... I wouldn't share any thing you said. If you need prayer, just ask. Anyway... that's all I wanted to say.Mat 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Good night and God bless you.So parents that believe what the Bible says are incredibly awful parents?
And if we could skip the personal crap, that'd be good. You want to discuss the point, that's fine.
Just for the record, I love my faith. I'm proud of my faith. I live my faith daily. I'm not angry because my son died. I'm not angry at all. I've got a great support system. I'm psychologically healthy. I don't need a savior, I've already got one.
If you could wrap your mind around the fact that you don't have the only version of Christianity in the world, that'd be great.Melissa in all sincerity who is your Savior? I am curious. I am very sorry for your loss dear woman. I cam not imagine your pain. My heart and prayers do go to you Melissa. May the God of comfort always wrap His loving arms around you and keep you in His peace. In Christ.Jesus. You say you are psychologically healthy? That is all fine and wonderful. Does that include spiritual and emotional health? I do not get what you mean by psychological. In Love, Skye
Thank you Skye for you condolences. The only reason that I brought up my psychological health is that Beth seems to feel that the pain of my loss has made me angry and bitter, it hasn't. Actually, I'm a much better mother, wife and friend than I've ever been. I love deeper and I forgive easier. I'm emotionally and spiritually stronger than I've ever been.
I don't wake up broken-hearted and not wanting to face a new day. I am not in need, because I have been given everything I need to make it through life. I've shared my story about how I found my faith before. It's excessively long and I'm not going to go into it again... but trust me, my faith is as strong as anyone's here.
I do thank you for your concern though, which I feel is genuine and heartfelt.
Edit: I do agree with Jane. I think that we do have to save ourselves. My view of the process is probably different than hers, but I think each person's journey is different.
I think the road has been paved, but it is our responsibility to find it and walk it. I don't think we get carried.I wasn't thinking about your loss. I was thinking about you. For some reason you assumed I had that on my mind. I'm sure opening up and talking about the most painful thing in your life, with a total stranger, someone who you're not fond of... is the last thing on your mind. I only meant I was here for you if you ever needed a friend or wanted to open a dialogue.
Wow, I mean wow. I understand you are attempting to help, and that's nice, but you really need to understand that you need not assume she is friendless and familyless and so you offer your "friendship" as help from someone you admit she is not fond of. Offence could be taken by that.
"I know you don't like me, but if you have no one to comfort you I'll do it."
Just saying.Sometimes you try way too hard to find offense. It's a lot easier not to.
Maybe you should take this post to heart and use it yourself sometime, since you're the very same person who told me that everything I've ever said to you, whether I was trying to our not, was somehow offensive to you.
You make stuff up a lot. I said you weren't very nice to me. That's not quite the same thing. Good to see you.
seriously? Making stuff up? You're now denying that you told me that everything I've ever said to you was unkind or offensive? I don't think I'm the one making things up, here Beth. That lie will be on your conscious, not mine.
But, Beth never lies, at least, that's what she has to constantly tell herself.
Seems like a sweeping statement on my part. I spose it's not beyond the realm of possibility. I don't remember you ever being particularly nice to me in any way, if that adds credence to your claim. Oh well, such is life.
You assume others take offence easily because that's what you do.
I know you don't like me much, but if you have no one else to talk to perhaps I can help you become a better Christian. Would you like to open up a private dialogue so I can help you with some of your issues?
Did you have a problem with me reaching out to another hubber? I wasn't offering to fix her. Im pretty sure she can't fix me either. I don't believe we are qualified, as humans, to go around fixing one another. I thought it would be nice to chat with her as two women... off this slightly diseased forum, just connect as real life ppl. How that concerns you in any way, I don't know, but games like this... are such an incredible waste of time. If you don't have anything positive to add, just don't say anything.
I glad you are trying to reach out and touch others, just try not to insult as you do it.
"if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all"
ThumperLets see if you can follow it shall we? I am going with "when hell freezes over."
Games... games, games, games. Like junior high, only we're adults.
Here's the part where no one can actually talk about an actual subject and the personal attacks begin.
Been there, done that. Y'all have at it, it's not interesting or constructive. I'll leave you to it.How is that a personal attack. But - thanks for proving my point.
If you can't say anything nice........Yes, we know you have been there and done that, hence the problem.
Beth, with all do respect you clearly have no idea what the conversation is about and yet you keep pretending you do. Perhaps you are misunderstanding. You seem to be so intent on defending other without even know what you are defending that your comment are not even on topic.
When you want to talk to me, speak without the mask on.
Then we can talk about *due respect.You certainly latched onto Eric's mask thing haven't you. It was explained to him why the mask is necessary, but perhaps you didn't catch that part. He was under the impression that masks are only necessary for those looking for trouble, the example he gave was the KKK. He seemed to be unaware as to why spiderman or batman would need to remain masked.
But I can live with you not responding to me. BTW. Is 37 your real last name?
Your personal problems are not our personal problems, your desperation is not our desperation, your broken heart is not our broken heart and your beliefs are not our beliefs. It's quite strange that you just can't seem to understand this, we are not you.
Did you even read what I wrote or are you just being obtuse?
Monkeys, dogs and fish all bleed, too. Are you the same as them?Either one, my post still stands no matter how you look at it. We are not you, we don't have your personal problems and don't need the solutions that you feel are good for you. It's really that simple.
I am one of them she thinks that way about.
Mat_15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
Mat_17:15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
Luk_6:18 And they that were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed.
Act_5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
She also does not follow the Bible.You do not include him in the group you were speaking of?
I don't believe it is a personal attack if he believes you do indeed include him.
If you don't, he would only be wrong, not personally attacking.
A personal attack would be to call you a name or insult you.Nope, apparently it's fine for other Christians to question my faith and not consider it a personal attack, but it's horrible when atheists do it to Christians.
It's really cool when you have no idea about anything I do... like the time you accused me of cheating on my husband because I disagreed with you. That was fun
Perhaps I should have been more specific in my PSA from the other day. When I asked to be excluded from conversations, that included references to me as well as my name directly.
Sorry for any confusion.I'm pretty sure we are not able to dictate the conversations to that extent. I recall you talking about me in detail for pages on end whether I was in the conversation or not. I was talking to Melissa, you have implicated yourself in the conversation to the Nth degree compared to my veiled reference that had very little to do with you.
Which in and of itself is an interesting statement. First, I'm not dictating anything. Made a simple request at this point not to be included in a conversation that I was not part of. Second, your mention Melissa's accusations of every Christian "except 2". Its no secret that myself and Motown are the two who are friends outside of hp with Melissa. So if your reference "had little to do with me" then why even mention the "2" that Melissa doesn't seem to persecute? It's interesting (and slightly disappointing) that you state you respected my request the other day then turn around and change.
I also find it interesting to note that you say you "dislike mob mentality" attacks and gang ups. Uet I have noticed in this very thread that you jave joined in with othere speaking against not only Melissa (who is a friend) but Dr Lamb AND Encephaloi (neither of whom are friends). So I have to ask, do you REALLY dislike "group attacks"? Or do you just dislike them when YOU are the focus?
On second thought, you don't have to worry about answering that. I know you don't like or respect me anyway. Nevermind.
I'm going to try something different today. I'm going to again wish ypy well (even though you doubt my sincerity) and move on. But this goes back to what I've been trying to tell you. You cannot ask for what you are not willing to give. Any time I've had anything to say about you has been AFTER you have made references to me. This has gone on since we first metIm not reading that until you chastise JM for not only using your name, but sharing personal information about you right after you asked everyone not to do that.
Not really concerned whether you read it or not. As I stated, I'm trying something different. For one, I'm truly making an effort to avoid those who judge with no understanding or attempt to understand. As our relationship with God and Christ is a personal one and he deals with us differently, we are in no position to judge how God deals with our brothers and sisters. As you set the tone for our relationship a year ago and given the fact that you stated that you aren't here to understand, I doubt that we have anything further to discuss. But if you ever decide that you truly wish to learn and understand me, I'm always open to try and set a new foundation as I actually do like you genuinely. Until then, you remain blessed
Deepes There is no other that laid down HIS life for the world so that we could be saved from our sin. NO not one. There is no one that will ever love us more. No not one. There is none, no not one that will always be faithful and true and just. That one is Jesus Christ. My mind is open to the creator of the universe who gives life and takes life. He is the breath of life. Deepes why would you so deny Jesus? What if us believers are right? One day every knee will bow and tongue confess; Jesus is Lord. Do not be to late for Jesus. He loves you. Believe it or not Deepes, I love ya too. I feel allot of compassion for you. I know what it was like to live on my own; self-seeking motives. It was lonely and selfish. I was searching in the wrong places for peace. Jesus is everything but imaginary. He is alive. One day you WILL know the truth. I pray it is not too late. JOHN 3:16 Have you ever read the Bible other than your philosophers and or scholars that teach you about the world? Love , Skye
You may want to know anything about who you're addressing prior to preaching at them. Deepes IS a believer, dear.
Also, since I'm the atheist, not him, Pascal's wager and appealing to fear or emotion does not work on most atheists, and it certainly does not work on me. If you want to discuss it, fine let's go. If you just want to preach, make false assumptions and sermonize, don't bother.If you leave off the "dear" it sounds more friendly.
I'm really not all that concerned with what you feel is friendly, Beth. I do not trust your judgement on friendly, interpersonal relationships or what is considered offensive.
So then you would like me to continue on or... lol.
I'm sorry, you asked me once why I thought you came across mean or condescending... I'm just saying, that without the dear, it sounded like you were sharing information with her. You throw the "dear" on and all of the sudden, she's a stupid child and you're the wise teacher, you know? Oh well... just an opinion. I'll try to keep that stuff to myself.
Maybe you missed my request the other night. As I had not been very active in the forums lately prior to tha last day or so, I asked not to be brought into discussions because Melissa mentioned me and others followed suit. I'm trying to do a few things differently one of which is trying not to get totally dragged into certain discussions.
Yes, missed it. Totally won't try to correct misconceptions or false statements about you anymore. My bad.
Skye made an honest mistake. But it's more than clearing up any misconceptions. In the comments that prompted my request, my name was brought up one way but repeated in a manner by people that question things that are personal.
But I do thank you for stepping up for me
Hmmmm, Deepes, I don't see how or what JM did wrong here. She simple stated that you are a believer. I'm not sure (and I didn't see the previous comment, but I don't think it matters in this case) you can control the forums like that. You can tell people not to reference you if you like, but you don't get to control them.
Is it wrong for me to have reference JM here?I didn't say or imply that she did anything wrong at all, nor am I trying to control the forums. Given that she missed the request, I simply repeated a request. I've explained my reasons for my request. Just a simple preference at this point. I know I have no control over whether or not my request is honored (in fact it wouldn't surprise me if certain individuals kept it up just for giggles; ) ). No matter what happens, I'm no longer at this point going to address too many personal references from any who do not fully understand me nor care to. Those who truly know me will be okay with it and those who truly do not seek to judge or attack will do the same or else reveal their true intentions here
I don't think you have to participate in a conversation just because your name was mentioned, you can, if you desire, correct someone if they misrepresent you, but JM didn't misrepresent you so I don't see the problem.
Once again, I didn't say that there was a problem. I merely repeated a request. It had nothing to do with anything or anyone else other than D.M making a request. As this is EXACTLY what I'm trying to change and avoid (the personal stuff not related to the forum topic), as well as the fact that I clarified myself a few times (though apparently my clarification is not accepted apparently), this is my final comment on this situation.
I apologize I meant to reply to Encephaloidea.. Big OOPS. My mistake. See I am human and I do make plenty of errors. But one thing I know for certain Jesus is Lord, Amen. . I am humble and very sorry deepes or anyone else i may of offended by entering the wrong name. Forgive me please. Thank You, Love Skye
Dear, Sister Skye,
Thank you so much for the majority of your message. I must admit that I am confused as to what this has to do with my request not to be brought into discussions. As I am a Christian, I am fully aware of everything you mentioned and already believe in God and the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. So if we believers are correct, we, along with many others, will be fine. Thanks again for reminding us all.
With Christian love, D.M.
Portray you as evil? I don't even believe in evil, I guess you think everyone thinks like you, trying to portray others as evil.
The concern is for the children.Rad Man, you say "I don't even believe in evil". What exactly do you call murder, rape, child molestation and the like?
Please seek professional help before you hurt someone, or worse.
- Beth37posted 11 years ago0
How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, Nor stand in the path of sinners, Nor sit in the seat of scoffers! But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night.…Ps 1:1-2
Is "blessed," the same as "self righteous."?
bless·ed adjective \ˈble-səd\
: having a sacred nature : connected with God
: very welcome, pleasant, or appreciated
—used to make a statement more forceful
Full Definition of BLESSED
1
a : held in reverence : venerated <the blessed saints>
b : honored in worship : hallowed <the blessed Trinity>
c : beatific <a blessed visitation>
2
: of or enjoying happiness; specifically : enjoying the bliss of heaven —used as a title for a beatified person
3
: bringing pleasure, contentment, or good fortune
4
—used as an intensive <never had one blessed minute of instruction — Charles Scribner Jr.>You could have just said "yes."
Held in reverence?
Self-righteousness (also called sanctimoniousness, sententiousness, and holier-than-thou attitudes) is a feeling or display of (usually smug) moral superiority derived from a sense that one's beliefs, actions, or affiliations are of greater virtue than those of the average person. Self-righteous individuals are often intolerant of the opinions and behaviors of others.Humbly I say to you, we believers have no righteousness of our own, Righteous Atheist.
Philippians 3:8-9
" I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith..."You say that, but your self righteousness is apparent.
By GRACE I have been saved, and this is not of my own doing, but the doing of the Lord, who offers that same grace to ALL. I have no boast in this; it is all God's doing! To him be the glory both now and forevermore! Amen and amen.
Calling us wicked sinners, again? Funny, how the verses you post here are meant to put others in an inferior light compared to your "blessed" superiority.
In fairness, there are other verses that call everyone sinners..... Which we all have broken even our own moral codes at some time, never mind a possible moral code of god.....
That is why Beth posts them here and why we reject them as hateful nonsense.
I didn't call anyone a sinner, though ocean is right, we are all sinners and have all fallen short of the grace of God. If I was calling anyone anything, it was the word "scoffer" that came to mind b/c you and Dr. Lamb were scoffing at Sir Dent. You were scoffing at Sir Dent were you not? Maybe I misunderstood, but I don't believe so. If you scoffed and I pointed out that you scoffed, I don't believe that is "hateful nonsense." It's just an observation.
- Gee, how did I know you were going to say that? Oh yes, the fact that you never take responsibility for your actions.
Exactly, your immediate response was to resort to name calling. That's just an observation.If Bob makes fun of someone (scoffs or what we'd now call bullies), and Ann then says Bob was scoffing or bullying, does Bob have any sympathetic grounds for complaining that Ann name-called?
Where does this logic end? If no one can call scoffing or bullying such, should we also avoid calling those who rape us rapists, those who steal from us a thieves, because we are then "name-calling"?
If called out on bullying behavior, wouldn't the better and bigger thing be to apologize to the one you bullied, rather than complaining that someone else called you a bully for bullying?So, you're now calling us bullies because we laugh at childish beliefs from grown adults?
When the adults grow up, of course.
So, now you equate us to rapists and thieves?
Here is the definition of bullying, so that you are educated and need not use terms falsely:
"Bullying is the use of force, threat, or coercion to abuse, intimidate, or aggressively impose domination over others.""Does a grown man need mommy to kiss his booboo?" is a form of taunting; it classifies as "verbal abuse"; it's intent is clear. It IS a form of bullying!
I did not equate you to rapists and thieves. I said if one can't call a scoffer or bully such, must we take this logic further and refrain from calling rapists and thieves such because this also could be labeled "name calling"?
I don't see that the one who confronted your scoffing did any wrong; she was defending someone. I think you, Encephaloidead, and Dr. Lamb owe the one you scoffed at an apology and you both could benefit from a lesson in compassion and kindness, but based on what I'm now witnessing from you, I won't be holding my breath for that.Are you also demanding an apology from the person who associated me with the KKK?
I'm not demanding anything from anyone; I think an apology should be given to SirDent, but I don't expect it will be.
I don't know the situation you're referring to with the KKK association, so I can't say if they should apologize or not. I haven't been on here long, so I can't say with certainty, but in truth, I haven't thus far witnessed anything that would cause me to associate you with the KKK. And I don't try to slander anyone, so regardless of any differences between us, I will in no way attempt to portray you as someone who would support the KKK. God bless!
Better still, perhaps it's intent was to show a grown person that they don't need their mommy standing by with bandages incase he scraps his knee.
I can see that you too need to read the definition of bullying so you may educate yourself and not use the term falsely.
Yes, you did.
Based on your posts here that condone and encourage your God to murder innocent children, I doubt you know anything about compassion and kindness.God is incapable of murder as he MUST determine when our lives on earth begin and when our lives on earth end, and eternity for us begins. This in no way implies any lack of compassion or kindness.
That is exactly what a murderer does, they decide when someone's life on earth ends.
It is the exact opposite of compassion and kindness.What is called when someone decides when someone's life here on earth ends and the one in heaven begins?
Yes, I saw the scoffing at Sir Dent's post. To that, I would just say that it seems to me that the equivalent of pain from a child to adult, is still there. Mock as some will, this life IS super painful at times. It just downright hurts, and we have been through it or know others that have been. To that kind of pain, there is some hope for people, comfort to be had which is a welcome blessing. To say its like an adult needing a boo boo to be comforted was goofy to me, even if they disagree with Sir Dent.
Edit: To everyone, no matter what their views, there is often a type of "pain reliever" sought after. That is pretty human. Even those that do the worst to end their pain, are seeking freedom from the pain. The point being, its not that much different from when we were kids and got hurt. Feeling better is nice no matter how it comes I think. Sir Dent was sharing his thoughts on that I think.Sure, and religion offers exactly the same "Feeling better" solution as does the needle to the junky and the bottle to the alcoholic.
Ahhh, I can see why you say that based on some other things I have seen. However, I would have to disagree from my point of view and understanding, because I think that needles and bottles in those situations actually hurt the person more than help them or numb the pain.
If the comfort is true and real, and the hope is also, that is very different from the killing effects of the other things compared. Or I think so anyway. I understand that you think very differently and find some beliefs harmful, so I can see why you might try to make the parallel. Its only all true as it is, that they are the same though. If there is hope in God truly, and comfort and meaning to even the greatest pain we encounter, that is true hope and help, not like bottles and needles, imo.As does religion, which does nothing to solve anything and only serves to exchange one bad vice for another.
As opposed to the killing effects of religion on the mind and in societies?
That's funny Beth, You didn't call anyone a sinner, you called everyone a sinner. That makes it okay?
No one cares what you believe about yourself based on the rubbish contained in the bible. If you want to believe you are evil sinners with no self esteem, that is your prerogative. Obviously, it is a very unhealthy attitude that doesn't help you in any way, an attitude in which one should seek professional help rather than just accepting it, but again, you are free to do so. No one will suffer more than you and the people around you trying to live with such a morbid worldview.
However, to blanket the rest of us as if we share your personal problems is not something anyone is going to accept or sit idly by while you demonize and lower us to your standards. We know we are not evil sinners just as we know the vast majority of people on the planet are not evil. Hence, it is an insult to our intelligence for you to say that to us, but we understand that those words are just the result of having no self esteem and a morbid outlook on life, and all we can really do is laugh at the immaturity or feel pity.
I personally see no reason to feel pity as that outlook is self-inflicted and childish, so I would much prefer to just laugh at those immature believers who have yet to grow up and be the responsible adults they are expected to be. If they refuse, they will only be laughed at even more.
ALL are wicked sinners UNTIL we come to God THROUGH Jesus Christ, and then we are DECLARED righteous, only because of what Jesus has done, dying in our place on the cross, and not because of anything we have done or will do.
Yes, that hateful nonsense, exactly the stuff we reject.
Still, you have to admit that IF we have done wrong things, and IF there is a god that has moral rules or codes, and that IF then he has forgiven the wrongs done to him in his "greater court" of justice, then how is that a bad thing? I am saying, the idea itself is not a bad one, even if you aren't into the idea of there being a god to answer to.
IF there is, it is pretty great, is it not, that he makes a way to be forgiven if people are sorry they did something wrong? We live in a society that seems to esteem doing right, and shuns and punishes for doing wrongs. Just thinking it through on a practical level there.Because we can make up endless amounts of "If" fantasy scenarios to justify anything, but unfortunately for those scenarios, reality takes over.
I am speaking of good ideas vs bad ideas there. Not just trying to make up "if" scenarios. They matter in that case to the point being made.
Sounds like boot camp brain washing. Strip every thought out of them and then put your own in when they are weak and vulnerable.
Says nothing about women. Either God doesn't care about women or the men who wrote it did think women had value. Which one do you think it is?
The words of God have been passed down from ancient days when "mankind" and "men" referred to both men and women, thus both men and women are referred to, and "men" in most cases in ancient writings, including the books of the bible, can be translated men and women.
That's a rationalization to say the least. Are you saying the bible does't refer to women as her and men as him?
Now, don't be silly. I'm sure she speaks Hebrew and Aramaic perfectly...or at least Greek. Surely she speaks Greek.
I'm certain the bible also refers to women or does it always say men or man?
Let's see…
Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT
"However, you may purchase male and female slaves from among the nations around you.You may also purchase the children of temporary residents who live among you, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property,passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat them as slaves, but you must never treat your fellow Israelites this way."
Male and female.
Exodus 21:7-11 NLT
"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are."
Man, daughter, slave, she.
It's all there. She must have made a booboo.You don't understand the words because you aren't being led by the spirit. Your argument is invalid.
It can be verified in nonreligious writings that "man" in ancient days often referred to both males and females. This is not to suggest that the writers did not also specify both males and females at other times. It's the way it was; it's not my opinion.
This may help. Read thru it and see if it increases your understanding of the matter.
http://www.ushistory.org/DECLARATION/DOCUMENT/index.htm
- SirDentposted 11 years ago0
Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
- SirDentposted 11 years ago0
Cat and Beth, I appreciate the support. You are both great people and true friends.
Thank you, SirDent! May God bless you for your kindness!
- SirDentposted 11 years ago0
“Thou shalt call his name Jesus.”
- Mat_1:21
A name given of God to Mary the mother of Jesus. The name Jesus in the original Greek is Ie?sous. The definition of this name is Jesus, the Son of God, the Saviour of mankind, God incarnate.
Oh what a Savior we have in that he took our place and entered into the realm of death so that we may live. Next person who says cross-validation gets linked to the above conversation.
If my eyes rolled any further back in my head right now I'd be having a seizure.Yeah, apparently Emily took a psychology course at some point and decided to show us her Freud impression...
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/109430? … ost2555811
Wonder what the doctor would feel about the above lovefest?
- SirDentposted 11 years ago0
1Co_1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
- SirDentposted 11 years ago0
When you see lemons on a tree, you know it is a lemon tree.
Reply when you figure that out.Oh, I don't know if I can get that one... it's ever so cryptic.
It would help if you could see the tree... oh but you can't. So you are just guessing. Wrongly... obviously.
So yeah, I can discount your opinion Have a good day.
- SirDentposted 11 years ago0
Mat 5:14 Ye are the light of the world.
A light is meant to shine in darkness and show the way. Do you show the way? Is your light hidden under a bushel?
Jesus once said, "I am the light." As long as He was here on this earth, He was the one who illuminated the path of righteousness. He said, "I go away, now it ir your turn to light the way."
Let your light shine. Stop hiding your identity. Bring others to the path of righteousness so they can be saved.You think you are shining a light the same as jesus did? Wow!
- SirDentposted 11 years ago0
I asked the Lord, "What do you want to say this morning to your children?"
Tell them I see their sorrow and their grief. Fear not because of what the enemy is doing for I am with you. Stand strong, for the day of my coming is near. Keep your lamps trimmed and ready so you won't be found lacking and unaware.
A light shines in darkness and darkness flees. A light illuminates so what is there can be seen. Keep your eyes open and do not fall asleep.
May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all."Absolutely nothing, mind your own business and leave people alone, you don't speak for Me."
God talks to you? Did he actually say those words?
Me too. Mostly it's more of an intuition thing though. It's like talking directly to my soul at times too. Has it always happened to you? What's it like? I hope you don't mind me asking.
It started only after I gave my life to Jesus. I used to hear Him a lot more back then than I do now. Back at first it was like just chatting with someone but as time went on, I heard Him less not because he stopped talking but because I stopped listening as much.
It was always a voice I heard, not a loud screaming voice but a soft voice.That's interesting. I've heard several people say that before. How has it affected your life, if you don't mind me asking? I'm just really interested in other people's religious experiences.
It changed me completely. The old me that ran around to clubs, cursed, and drank was not there anymore. I used to play music in bars and watched people get drunk, fight, have shootouts etc. . . No longer did I have a desire to do that. What didn't bother me before, bothers me now.
That is really wonderful, I'm happy for you:)
So you are more irritable AFTER finding Jesus?
True that.
On a non-argumentative note... it always confuses me how converting to Christianity makes some people nicer and others nastier.
I do have to give him proper respect though, there's not a bar in his part of the state that I would step in at gun-point. There's also not a bar down there that's not filled with Christians. Ask them, they'll tell you.
I wouldn't think it makes one irritable after converting. I know that for me, I simply lost interest in clubbing as I wasn't comfortable in those environments. As such, I redirected that energy into writing and other interests.
I never really had all that much interest in clubbing in the first place... but Christianity didn't affect it either way. There is nothing inherently bad about music, dancing and people having fun. I wouldn't feel I was violating anything with my faith if I decided to go out.
I think there is a whole lot of stuff that is wrapped up in the morality of Christianity that has more to do with the culture rather than what Christ actually taught. I think the public image or Christianity is that you have to be/not be a certain kind of person, look/not look a certain way, and go to/not go to certain places to maintain the "lifestyle" that is believed that a Christian should have rather than from any real directive from Jesus.
Thank you sister skye2day for your kind, encouraging words! May God bless you!
Thank you brother SirDent for your words of prophesy this morning.Hello, sister Beth, I see many are coming against you, so I wanted to give you a word of encouragement:
"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. Remember the words I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the One who sent me." John 15:18-21You do realize no one is being persecuted? Claiming that does not make it so. No one is anti Christ. None that I have seen, anyway.
How dare you minimize my suffering! I am in sackcloth and ashes. JK
Cat, you are very sweet and your encouragement is always welcome and appreciated. Thank you.Well, people can come off as a bit jerky, but that bit of 'encouragement' basically says anyone who questions someone claiming to be a Christian is persecuting them. I doubt many professed Christians would profess Christianity if they were truly persecuted.
I think we envision persecution to be burning at the stake, imprisonment, torture etc., but I s'pose it can be things as simple as feeling pressured to remain silent for fear of being mocked or rebuked. I personally do not enjoy the mob like mentality that takes over at times, it makes actual grown up communication more than difficult.
That being said, you are absolutely right! Speaking only for myself, I have not endured a hair of the suffering my beautiful brothers and sisters have... especially in countries where speaking anything biblical is off limits (illegal, even.)
I still appreciate Cat's efforts to be supportive. She is obviously a compassionate person.Millions of Christians have been martyred for the name of Jesus Christ. We will be persecuted. For over 2000 years of recorded history Christians have been persecuted for loving Jesus. We will be until Jesus returns. He will return. Every knee will bow and tongue confess Jesus is Lord. Many will go oops big times and it will be too late. Jesus is the way truth and life. John 14:6 , Romans 10:9-10. Choose Jesus because He so loves you. He wants none to perish. That is why He came into the world. John 3:16. Love, Skye
Isn't it also true that for 2000 years, Christians have been persecuting others - often martyring other professed Christians? Christianity began with Roman pagans almost immediately after gaining political power, through the crusades, the inquisitions the witch hunts, Catholic vs Protestant, early American settlers, puritans, pilgrims, etc?
I think, we stretch the word persecution here a wee bit. But, if it makes you feel good to feel put upon...go for it.
No I do not feel put upon?? Not exactly sure what that means but I get the drift. No problem. Jesus is my shield and my buckler. He is for us not against us. Any arrows that may come my way ping right off of me and go back. Jesus loves you girl like no other. He only wants our love. Skye.
- SirDentposted 11 years ago0
Acts 14:22 we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
- SirDentposted 11 years ago0
Psa_37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
Actually, it was real respect. I worked with families down there. It's a rough area, damn rough.
What kind of work did you do down here? What area?
I worked as a service coordinator for Birth to Three. We went into homes with kids who had medical issues/developmental delays and arranged things like speech therapy and physical therapy in home. I was up north for most of the time but they had some shortages down in Mcdowell/Mingo/Wyoming/Logan area so I covered four or five days a month.
Mingo county is where I live. It isn't as bad as it used to be but still not as good as it should be.
The people were all good people, they just REALLY liked their privacy and were kind of guarded. It was a voluntary program, of course, but it is ran by the state... so a lot of suspicion. Once they warmed up though, I was hard pressed to leave a house without a meal in me.
Before we go back to fighting... is Miner's still open? The food was amazing.Not sure where that is. Seems I have heard of it and it may be in the Delbarton area but not sure.
- SirDentposted 11 years ago0
Psa 4:8 I will both lay me down in peace, and sleep: for thou, LORD, only makest me dwell in safety.
Good night and God bless you. Dr. Lamb, you wrote:
"You remind me of a friend who doesn't eat pork, but eats bacon. I thought you guys thought a sin was a sin. And here I thought the Kingdom of God was not a matter of food, drink or murder therefore no food, drink or murder needs to be a concern once we are freed from the letter of the law, which was already fulfilled by Christ himself."
I hope this helps, Dr. Lamb - Now that the letter of the law has been fulfilled by Christ, it doesn't matter if a person eats pork or bacon (unless their own conscience is bothered) since the "kingdom of God is not a matter of food or drink". Murder is an entirely different story - murder violates not only the letter of the law but also the Spirit of the law, which is love.
Yes, many say "a sin is a sin", and there is a context in which this is a truthful statement - The blood of Jesus covers over EVERY sin, small or great, and make us clean and righteous. Once cleansed and freed from all sins by Jesus himself, we are forgiven of any and all sins, so that it doesn't matter what the particular sin was. So a person who was a murderer but has repented and is hidden in Christ can say with the same confidence as the one who lied but never murdered: I am made righteous by my Savior.
However, in another context, we do not equate one sin with another. As a follower of Christ, we need not worry about what food we eat, knowing that Jesus Christ has fulfilled the letter of the law and knowing that the kingdom of God is not about food or drink. But since we have the Spirit of God, we strive to keep in step with the Spirit, and so we are careful not to violate the Spirit of the law. "Love does no wrong to its neighbor, so love fulfills the law" (Romans 13:10). When we walk in love, in accord with the Spirit, we cannot murder, which violates the spiritual law of love.
JMcFarland, it is the Lord who decides all this and whose Spirit prompted men to write it in his word. The verses can be found throughout the bible. For example, "The entire law is summed up in a single command: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself” (Galatians 5:13-14).This is why I don't like you're religion. You pretty much get a "free pass". You get to do what you want, regardless of the consequences to other people. And then, all you have to do is accept that Jesus was real, died on the cross for your sins, and ask for forgiveness to get your ticket to eternal happiness in Heaven. While decent non-Christians get to spend an eternity in Hell simply for not believing. While they may have been practically a saint in life. Then you have the Charles Manson's of the world getting into heaven just with a few words. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
It seems like a cop out, and a way to do what want without ever having the responsibility of facing the rotten things in life you've done (not you in particular, I mean anyone).
Too cheap, and too easy.Obviously that's just the sales pitch.
If Christians truly believed that was all it took, they would never question each other. No one would ever say anyone wasn't a "real" Christian because of *insert thing they don't like here* There wouldn't be any "telling a tree by it's fruits"
They would know that all those horrible gay and lesbian abominations that they keep saying are going to hell would be walking through the gates beside them.
Lip service... sales pitch...saying crap they obviously don't mean... however you want to put it.I don't think all Christians are out for free passes. I have more faith in Humanity than that. I also think there are some very valuable lessons and wisdom to be found in the Bible.
TRUE repentance is rare, I think many "born again Christians" aren't truly repentant. All I have to do is look at my Facebook page to see that. They talk the talk, but don't walk the walk. I don't expect people to be perfect Christian angels, but I can tell when some one is lying, and when they actually feel the guilt and want to do better.
Still, it's true what I said. And there are plenty who DO think that way.Also, Melissa, people like you don't carry Bibles around in their pockets, and bang people over their heads with it at every opportunity. People like Cat do.
Why use a Bible when almost every car trunk has a tire iron?
janesix - Are you bothered that I refer to scriptures in a "Christian Discussion"?
No. I am bothered that you go around preaching things that aren't true, many things that aren't even in the Bible, and that are only your interpretations. You're interpretations are what I don't agree with. I don't like your thoughts on how you see the world.
I have nothing against you personally.In all sincerity (and I am not being "smart" about this) where do you believe I have made errors, so that my words are not biblically sound?
Honestly, I really don't have the time or inclination to go back through this huge thread and find the things you say that I disagree with. I've already told you in earlier posts some of the things that I disagree on.
I'm sorry to have bothered you with the request, janesix. Truly I did not mean for you to go back through the thread. I thought perhaps you might recall some. I was specifically looking for anything I said that was not biblically sound, rather than ones you simply disagreed with. Thanks for responding anyway. Take care and God bless you.
You haven't bothered me. This is the internet, I don't even know you. I just disagree with your personal interpretation of the Bible. I have my own. Everyone has their own interpretation.
There is no such thing s "Biblically sound". It is ALL personal interpretation.Relying on our own interpretations is dangerous, but there is One who guides us into all truth - the Holy Spirit himself. And he is there for all believers who will take hold of him and rely on him.
I disagree with you on that point, Jane. When it comes to the law, we can all say we interpret it differently, but when we go to court for a speeding ticket, the judge only has one viewpoint. He may be merciful if we truly sought to understand, but God help us if we created our own laws (religion) to suit our personal preferences.
Salvation itself is a gift that cannot be earned, so yes in that sense it is a free pass. But the Christian life thereafter is certainly not easy.
janesix, you say you don't like Christianity because as a Christian we get to do whatever we want, and perhaps at first glance (if tuned in only to the fact that any and all sins are erased once someone puts their faith in Jesus) this might appear the case. If you will read the next paragraph about striving to keep in step with the Spirit and obeying the Spirit of the law, you might see how a Christian must live a careful and wise life.
The funny thing is that in people's hatred for Christianity, they will make opposing stereotypes and complaints - Some will say (as you do) that it isn't right that people get a "free pass" and can do whatever they please as a Christian; others will make the exact opposite argument about Christianity and say it is too restrictive, not free enough for them. Our human nature without Christ is to reject and hate the message of truth, and we insert any and all excuses for our rejection.
I've never met any of these people you say are practically saints. Even the best of people (or those who APPEAR the best) are often selfish, prideful, greedy, hypocritical, judgmental, dishonest, rude, thoughtless, biased, uncaring, etc. People are often blind to their own tendencies. ALL are in need of a Savior.
Jesus said to those who were righteous in their own eyes: "The prostitutes and tax collectors are entering the kingdom ahead of you." (Matthew 21:31).
The prostitute, the thief, the murderer and so on recognize their need for a Savior much more easily than the prideful, judgmental, selfish, uncaring, hypocritical people.
Once saved, the prostitute is not to go on prostituting, the thief is not to go on stealing, the murderer is not to go on murdering. It must be TRUE repentance, so that they are sickened by their own past behavior, and now being a new creation in Christ they chose to follow Christ.Cat -
again, why do you assume (wrongly) that disagreeing or speaking out against Christianity amounts to hatred of it? I don't hate Christianity. I don't hate Christians. I disagree with them. I argue points with them. I disagree with a lot of what the religion stands for, but that does not equal hatred of it. It seems that you have a persecution complex, and that it somehow makes you feel good to feel hated or persecuted. You're not being persecuted. Disagreement is not persecution. Argument is not persecution. Do you think that anything but absolute acceptance of Christianity equals a hatred of it?.
" Our human nature without Christ is to reject and hate the message of truth, and we insert any and all excuses for our rejection."
I don't hate the message of truth. I'm no longer a Christian. How do you know what I hate? I don't hate anything, actually. I am sickened or saddened beyond belief of certain things that go on in this world, but I don't feel "Hate". And I certainly don't hate Christians or Christianity.
I don't think YOU get the message of truth at all.
Gotcha, so, we can murder as many as we want as long as we repent. Is that why Christians are over represented in prisons?
Dr Lamb - If someone WANTS to murder as you say, then they clearly have never repented. True repentance involves a complete change of direction so that the person who was once a murderer now abhors their past and would not now murder any more than those who never murdered.
Keep in mind that many a murderer who has never really repented will claim belief in Christ, but Jesus has said "Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom". Only the truly repentant, only those who become a new creation in Christ will in fact enter his kingdom.
Those in prison turn to God with great frequency for many reasons, including, 1) they are those whose sins are obvious to themselves and to everyone else , so they more easily recognize their need for a Savior, as opposed to the prideful people with HIDDEN sins; 2) their desperate situation pushes them toward calling out to God; 3) many evangelists are going into the prisons with the words of God, so the opportunity to discover God is increased."Dr Lamb - If someone WANTS to murder as you say, then they clearly have never repented."
When did the change occur, then? Believers murdered abortion doctors, murdered gays and witches, murdered thousands in the inquisition and murdered in the crusades. God himself murdered a world full of people, murdered Egyptian children and the people, both innocent and guilty of mistreating strangers, of Sodom and Gomorrah.
So if believers now would not murder, when did it change? Or are you invoking the logical fallacy of "No true Scotsman" and calling it truth?1 John 4:20 "Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen."
The "No true Scotsman" fallacy. Gotcha.
Partially because, as you will be aware, many of those murders were ordered by God. Just ask the murderer and they will tell you that - especially the Inquisition, witches and Crusades. And the abortion doctors, of course, as well as the evil homosexuals.
Plus very few actually murdered a brother or sister, just a stranger that was living in sin and in violation of God's orders.Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness."
And from this you deduce that you can tell the difference between a true Christian and a fake one? That you are a god?
I would disagree, and I think that most people will.If you add the two together, it basically means that anyone not agreeing with her is not a Christian... throw in the fruits of the tree and you have the self-righteousness judgmental hat-trick.
I swear, same three verses...every time.It does seem that way, doesn't it? God has given her the ability to look inside and judge - something no other person is allowed or can do. Doesn't seem quite right somehow...
You have no idea how tedious it is. Seriously, none. It all goes back to not taking responsibility for Christianity because that would imply that it was imperfect. It's a neat little way to get rid of all those people who embarrass the institution by blowing up buildings or shooting camps full of children. That such.
It's also good for dismissing troubling non-fundamental Christians. Those are particularly offensive because they screw with the cult mentality.
Melissa Barrett - Christians debate many topics and we recognize there is much we have not been given revelation about. But the three verses you call the hat-trick verses, and which you are hearing from others so often that you say, "I swear, same three verses, every time" are generally agreed upon by Christians, and they don't make anyone self-righteous or judgmental. As you know I was not directing the verses at you (though you're accustomed to these same verses being used in reference to you), but I was using them to make the point to someone else that many who CLAIM to be Christians are not in truth Christ's followers. Most Christians have enough discernment to recognize that those who murder "in the name of God" are not Christians at all.
So these are the verses you keep being given:
1 John 4:20 - "Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen."
Matthew 7:21-23 - "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness."
Matthew 7:16 - "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?"
Since you are hearing these same verses "every time", I would like to take this opportunity to present something to you that I hope will be helpful.
You've mentioned elsewhere how much your husband loves you, so if you will, consider for a moment that someone claims to be a friend of your husband, and they even say some good things about him. Yet that person is CONSTANTLY bashing you, his beloved wife. How does your husband respond?
Seriously, will he be okay with a "friend" bashing you - calling you names, saying how awful you are, trying to pick out every flaw, accusing you of all manner of evil things, and so on?
Believers, the "church", are together the BRIDE of Christ. God is our husband!
How do you think God will respond to someone who continually bashes his beloved wife?
No matter how angry you are initially, please honestly ask yourself the questions. Am I wrong in assuming your husband would not tolerate anyone bashing you? If you do in fact love God, please don't be that person who makes it a practice to bash God's wife.You really have to work on your definition of bashing.
My husband loves me very much. However, he isn't an idiot. He is well aware that disagreeing with me is not "bashing" me. So yes, he lets people disagree with me all the time. It doesn't upset him one bit. He doesn't believe that everyone who disagrees with me is personally attacking me. I don't believe that everyone who disagrees with me is attacking me.
Furthermore, HE doesn't always agree with me. He tells me when he does. He is not bashing me.
The persecution thing is getting old... and sad. There are a couple billion Christians on this planet. I don't have to agree with ever single one of them on everything or face Gods wrath.
Do you seriously, honestly believe that God is commanding me to agree with you? Really?
What verse is that?
In addition, I am a Christian. I demand YOU agree with me, if you don't then I can tell you aren't. Because of your fruit and all.
Have you really thought this through?
So you would believe the word of a murderer over the word of someone decent and moral? This is what you are saying in a round about way. Believe the murderer when he says God told him to murder but don't believe it when someone tells you about the Love of God, though they did not murder anyone.
I think I talked a little with you about all this before. Crusades were fought by Catholics who sold their farms and homes to the Catholic church to fund their crusades. The church ended up with lots and lots of property.
I may be wrong but I think the inquisition was done by the Knights Templar who called themselves Christians but were not by their very own deeds. By their fruit you will know them.
Witch burnings I don't have enough info on to decide or discern what really happened.
Now a little Bible lesson for whoever reads this. When Jesus stood before the people after being arrested, PIlate offered them the release of one prisoner. The people decided which one to release. They chose a murderer and thief over a man who did no wrong. The people today are of the same ilk, (generally speaking).With no other information, it would seem prudent to believe the murderer. God has a very long history of both murder and giving orders to murder; it would seem reasonable that an unchanging God will continue to do the same. The one claiming God loves people He has every intention of burning for eternity, though...well, that one doesn't make much sense.
Yes, the church ended up with property. And the people God told to kill marched off and did just that. It's what I said.
So God told the Knights Templar to murder - again, what I said. But be careful with that "fruit" thing - you come perilously close to the same logical fallacy as well as violating God's right to be the only judge that Cat appears to follow.
Witch murders were most often a simple land/possession grab, because God told them to. What I said.
Yep - the people chose a reformed murderer and thief over a rabble rouser that was destroying their way of life and belief. Much like murdering gays, wasn't it? Or anyone else preaching that the accepted "interpretation" of God's word just might be a little wrong? You don't like to hear what they have to say, and they are different and threatening your belief, so kill them. Christians have been noted for that for a long, long time. I do seem to remember reports of going after the gnostics way back in the 3rd and 4th century...My last reply for the night. Jesus told believers how to know who were real and who were not. It is not judging as you believe it to be but discernment of the spirit. If we have no way to tell, then the gospel cannot be preached to the lost, which is also a commandment of the Lord.
God removed cancerous people from the earth. Who in their right mind would only want a small part of a tumor removed? God gave land to Abraham and while his descendants were in Egypt, it was taken over. What would you do if someone moved into your house while you were gone on vacation? Would you leave them alone and find a new house or remove them?
If murderers were believed, there would be none put into prison. Ted Bundy would still be alive and still killing most likely, same with Jeffrey Dahmer and many others.
Believers are called liars constantly in these forums, but yet many would still rather believe killers and thieves. It makes absolutely no sense to me at all.
If a tree bears bad fruit, it should be cut down and cast into the fire. If a tree bears good fruit, it will be used to the glory of God.
I hadn't heard about the gnostics in the 3rd and 4th century. I wonder if they were trying to de-convert believers or something similar. I do know that in the early days of the church many believers were turned over to the authorities for a reward by pagans.
One last warning. You should be careful how you treat believers and how you talk about them God loves His children and does not take kindly to them being put down.You put me down all the time. Just sayin'
We're going to have to have a long talk about this spiritual discernment one day too.I see. You can "discern the spirit" then, instead of judging what is inside a person. Quite a trick, to discern what is not there, and then claim it is OK to judge after being told not to because God says you have to after all. This is called "rationalization", you know.
Yes, God murdered. Instead of healing, He chose to simply murder - probably easier for Him, but certainly didn't do much for the corpse left to burn forever.
Nothing wrong with believing a murderer - it depends on what they say. If they claim the sky is blue, believe them. If they claim God spoke to them, don't believe. That's pretty simple, really, and is the same path that could be taken with the theist as well.
No, the gnostics just didn't see eye to eye with the more powerful church. They found that a bible (there wasn't one then), priests and the whole church thing unnecessary as a prerequisite to worshipping God. They found God inside themselves, so to speak - something that was quite an anathema to the Christian church. Eventually they were chased down and killed as heretics, all because they worshiped the same god, just differently.
One last thing; you fear your god yourself if it makes you happy. I find nothing to fear in fictional tales from centuries ago.Really? Is your Daddy gonna get me?
Thanks - Christianity in a nutshell.
The templars were the victims of the inquisition, not the perpetrators. Several hundred of them were caught, tortured and burned at the stake as heretics. The inquisitions were ruled by the Catholic church, who went after lapsed heretics previously forced to either convert to Catholicism or die.
The witch hunts were much the same, except for the most part, it was a war against women. It was so severe in some areas that there were no women left in some towns - every single one of them had been accused and ultimately killed as a witch.
I'm sure you're going to say it was all the fault of the Catholic church, ignoring that, with the exception of Eastern Orthodoxy, the Catholic church was the ONLY church at the time, and without them, we would not have the Bible as it exists today. Except that excuse loses steam when you focus on what happened after the Protestant reformation. When the protestants gained power in certain areas, they turned around and started accusing catholics of heresy and burning THEM as well. Your only recourse from the bloodshed that both sides believed they were doing according to the will and laws of god, incidentally, is to say that NONE of them were "true" christians, because YOU"RE a true Christian and you wouldn't burn anyone at the stake. I'm sorry, but that excuse is just that - an excuse - and not a very good one.This is the "day of favor" (prophesied long ago in the Old Testament and fulfilled by Jesus Christ) - we have now been set free from the law and its death penalty by God himself, who fulfilled the righteous requirements of the law when he died in our place. We who are in the day of favor are now instructed to live in love, mercy, peace, forgiveness and the like BECAUSE OF WHAT JESUS HAS DONE (receiving the death penalty in our place, and opening the way to him for ALL who will believe).
Any person who murders, claiming God so instructed him, and so profoundly violates this law of love in the day of favor is clearly not in truth following the lead of the Spirit. We don't pat ourselves on the back for discerning this truth; it is written clearly for ALL who will study the word with the guidance of the Spirit.
Here are some of the many, many verses that support what I am saying to you:
2 Corinthians 6:2 " I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation."
Galatians 5: 14-18 "The entire law summed up in a single command: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law."
Galatians 5:22-23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control."
Matthew 5:9 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called the children of God."
Matthew 5:43-45 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.…"
Romans 8: 9 "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ."
Romans 12: 14 "Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse."
Romans 12: 17 "Do not repay anyone evil for evil."So your claim is that no one in the middle Ages was a true Christian, yet you somehow are. Right. Sure. No true Scottsman, and you're somehow willingly forgetting that they used the Bible to justify their atrocities too. You're a pick and choose Christian who thinks you have the only right way throughout history. I don't buy it.
I enjoyed the part where she said we are all sinners except for herself.
I have NEVER said we are all sinners except for myself, Rad Man, that is a complete FALSEHOOD. I am 100% included in with ALL who are sinners!
Putting words in others mouths makes you very see-through.So - because Jesus died for you - you are allowed to sin? Is that why so many self professed Christians continue to go against the word of god? Because they get a free pass? You get to murder and rape because Jesus dies for your sins? Disgusting - have you no morals to guide you?
From what I can gather this particular type of Christian is particularly dishonest.
"we are all sinners except for those Christians that repent"
So you guys are the only ones without sin?
"I never said that, how dare you?"
Can't even be honest with themselves. It's a good thing we have laws in place to punish murderers because they think they have a get out jail free pass card.
You most certainly said on many occasions that if true Christians repent their sins are forgiven. You have repented so you are sinless. Have you not repented? Is not dishonesty a sin? Time to repent.
No, JMcFarland, my claim is that those who are led by the Spirit of God will not murder in the name of God. Every person in the Middle Ages was NOT a murderer! Many true Christians were there!
2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness." I honor all scripture as inspired by God (this does not mean God didn't use men to write it and that they didn't say inspired things in their own limited ways at times). You will find NO scripture instructing believers to kill even the guilty in the "day of favor", that is since Jesus' sacrifice on our behalf and our freedom to come to God and be made right through him.
Misusing the bible is a great atrocity and it grieves me that many have misused it for atrocities. The devil is very clever. What is a more effective plan for leading people away from God - to encourage people to speak against God as unbelievers, or to twist and distort things and carry out horrific acts disguised as "believers"?Grieves you huh? Interesting. How many people in the Middle ages were not murderers and where are you getting your facts from? Can you give us a list of the names of the TRUE CHRISTIANS? You wouldn't be making that up would you? Thanks for leading me away from god. I despise your god if you are a representative of a true christian.
One moment of thought tells you that ALL people are not acting out murders in ANY time period, including the Middle Ages. Now being a "murderer" in our hearts, that is an entirely different subject.
You were already apart from God, you have called yourself "Righteous Atheist". Please stop playing games with me.So - no facts then? Just making stuff up. I thought your God burned liars along with the unbelievers. Not so?
Many true Christians were there? How could you possibly know that? Christians were torturing and killing Jews, Catholics, protestants, children, Muslims, scientists, future Saints, heretics, homosexuals, all in the name of god and Christianity. They believed they were true Christians, acting according to what the Bible dictated. You can say that they weren't true Christians all day long, but they would probably call you a heretic for disagreeing with them. Christianity has several hundred years of bloody reign, and that's something that has to be realized, even if it makes you feel icky. Many Christians acknowledge the facts and work to overcome those atrocities to present a message of love. Others, Luke you, just want to deny that those acts were committed by Christians at all to distance yourself from them. It's dishonest. And it's not bashing Christianity for a fellow Christian to take a stand, acknowledge that these things happened and they were horrible and try to look past that bloody time period and spread the version of Christianity that they believe to be true. Denounce all you want, but you're no different. You think your way is the only right way, and that others should agree. Inquisitors had a similar mindset.
Since there is no word given to instruct us to kill even the guilty in the day of God's favor, then those who did so were not following their instructions as Christians to walk in love, forgive, repay no one evil for evil, etc. Therefore, no Christian led of the Spirit killed in the name of God, but only those who followed their own desires and nature.
The majority of Christians throughout history would disagree with you. You're entitled to your opinion, but that opinion flies in the face of Christian history almost since it's beginning. While it's true that your opinion may be correct despite the odds, it's equally likely that your interpretation is incorrect. I'd go so far as to say more likely. As you've repeatedly said, your opinion is just your opinion and means nothing. Why then do you automatically assume it to be correct, when it disagrees with others who claim to be listening to the same spirit, more educated in theology and apologetics (like the early church fathers who insisted on prosecuting and persecuting and executing heretics)
Received the death penalty in our place? So if he hadn't God would have continued to order killings of those who say for instance were not virgins on their wedding days? Paints a nice primitive picture. So what we have here is a human sacrifice, but not because he was God, so God sacrifice himself, but wait he didn't die at all because he was said to have walked around afterwards a went upwards to heaven. Do you think it was a long voyage for his physical body to get to heaven? I have to say it's a little embarrassing to be talking about sacrificing people for the Gods. Don't you think? My God is so powerful and kind that he didn't want us to sacrifice anymore animals or humans to satisfy him anymore (once did) that he killed himself. Only he didn't really die did he?
Rad Man - Humans were never sacrificed to God; the lamb was sacrificed as a foreshadowing of Jesus.
"The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23). According to the law, we are all (including me, lest you again lie against me) to be put to death for our sins. But praise be to God that in his mercy he fulfilled the law for us, since we could not fulfill the law ourselves, and he died in our place!
Jesus Christ did in fact die, but he was raised again to everlasting life! 1 Corinthians 15:3-6 "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time..."
Jesus' "earthly", natural body is not in heaven; it is his new spiritual body he now possesses and which we who are his children will also one day possess. 1 Corinthians 15:42 "The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body".Notice the slight contradiction?
He did die, then Gods are either mortal or Jesus was not God. He appeared, so he didn't die? When he appeared he didn't have a human body? It's confusing because it's all made up. There are many Christians that have told me God rose to heaven with his human body, but I guess they are not real Christians as well.Philippians 2:7 "He made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness."
God set aside his divinity when he came as the man Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ had a human body while on earth; Jesus Christ now has a spiritual body in heaven.
God the Father has always been seated on his heavenly throne, but God the Son came as a man (God in human form), died for us, rose again, and is now seated alongside the Father in the present-day heaven.
It's confusing UNTIL your spiritual eyes are opened and then it all makes PERFECT sense!
God has a spiritual body in heaven, as evidenced by the verses about the spiritual body. Misunderstandings of this sort are in no way indicative that someone is not a true Christian. The only persons believers see are not true Christians are those who deny it by their lives - those that murder people in the name of God; those that hate their brothers and sisters in Christ...I'm getting really over the who is and who isn't a real believer argument. Just that in it's such moot point at the end of the day. But I'd like to throw in a last opinion here. Just because we don't agree does not mean we are hating anyone. Stop. Just stop. No one hates anyone. Period.
I hate Rush Limbaugh... and you aren't a real Christian.
Really? I don't hate Limbaugh - I pity him. He has given up every shred of self respect chasing the almighty dollar and still has to live with himself.
True. Okay, so I don't hate him. So that leaves me with... well, I don't hate anyone I guess. Damn it.
I'm not fond of him myself. But I think I dislike Pat Robertson even more. Now I'm really screwed.
Yes you are Mo. I see your fruits. They are kumquats. You have kumquats for fruit. You are spiritually orange and sour. Repent now.
I can't take kumquats seriously enough to eat. In the words of a favorite comic, I don't even bring them home anymore; they just go to waste.
If you regularly watch that particular comedian, you ARE going to hell.
Liberal.No you're not. Your a fake liberal. True liberals don't bear kumquats for fruit. Silly Billy
I'm a true liberal. You can tell because I said so, and I'm going to ignore parts of this great big Book that don't line up with my own ideals and only post the parts that happen to coincide with the ideas I already have. How convenientLook. I can't eat them. They have a dirty sounding name. Carlin and I agree. Hence, I am a true liberal. If you don't see things the way he does, I question your sincerity.
I am a true moderate. I know I am the only true moderate because there is no one else on this earth who is even claiming to be a fake moderate.
I claim to be mostly moderately true... I am only marginally moderately fake.
I think I'm fairly moderate when moderating but always a model monitor when monitoring moderate monitors moderating mollified mollycoddlers.
Meh.Weird, I was literally *just thinking about you and you posted. You're you right? Am I still me?
Chris, I really hate duplicate accounts. Why can't everyone just be themselves and no one else? It makes everything ring completely false.
Chris, let me ask you, because you're one of the most Christian like Christ followers I know, and I actually do respect you. Do you have any problem admitting that Christianity had a bloody history, and that Christians have done terrible things in the name of God? Or do you think everyone who did those things was a demon possessed fake Christian attacking the bride of Christ (which really doesn't make any sense in the way some people are using it, because the bride of Christ is the church)
No, I have no trouble admitting that there is a bloody history associated with Christianity, although I doubt you'll be surprised if I say that my problem is that so many people only want to see that and nothing else.
Nevertheless, it is all too true, as Pascal once said, "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
Every man (and woman, I mean it in the general sense) must examine their own heart, try to keep their conscience clear but also be certain that what they are doing is really in accordance with God's will.
And many people who have committed bloody acts in the name of God (including a great many of the leaders) through history didn't really know what is in the Bible. This is not an excuse, bloody is bloody. And as has been pointed out so often, nothing drives people away from Christianity better than the actions of Christians.
Still, I drop in and out of this conversation and the whole 'demon possessed' thing is a totally new one on me.It may sound odd but it feels a little funny to "hear" someone say that about me. I suppose it should make me feel good but in reality it gives me pause to examine how Christ-like I really am.
Do I deserve it?
I claim to be completely fake most of the time. With the exception of the late afternoons and early morning and late evening and early afternoons and the rest of the day. LOL
Stop all the joking, people. The misconception may arise that we can occasionally be friendly. Wouldn't want that to get spread around.
Stop all the joking, people. The misconception may arise that we can occasionally be friendly. Wouldn't want that to get spread around.
Crap you're right. I'll return to drawing pentagrams and sacrificing black cats in the name of the Great Dark Lord now.
The spirit shall forever reign in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Jesus provided a specter presence to share the Word of God.
For those who believe in him shall never perish but have everlasting life.
The spirit of the righteous shall dwell in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Praise the Lord.
When the Devil sees that the individual is confined, he leaves the individual because the Devil cannot create his chaos in the prison. Therefore, once the Devil has left the individual, the individual then turns to Jesus who gave his life to save them. They then find their strength through acceptance of the Christianity that bears Truth, Love and Righteousness. Through this avenue, the criminal rejoices in the Heavenly Father.
Man has built an edifice that the devil cannot operate in? Are you sure you aren't giving architects and builders a little more credit than they are due?
It is not the building - but the individual that is freed from the Devil. The Devil cannot expand the sins of an individual that has become incarcerated - only the individual can achieve that. When parted from the sin, many turn to the Heavenly Father for solitude and resurrection. Thus the Devil is defeated within the individual through spirit redemption, not the physical edifice.
Men cannot sin while in jail? And Satan cannot help them do it?
Where in the world do you get these ideas? Because there is certainly nothing in the bible about it...
(You should also know that most parole boards look kindly on prisoners "getting religion" - it just might be a reason to "rejoice in the Heavenly Father" so to speak.)blah-blah-blah-blah-blah
negativism is not going to do any good in this matter.
positive advancement taming the criminal mind comes from Christian acceptance.
We rejoice in the spirit that has awakened many of the incarcerated criminals.
Praise the Lord.
I see, everyone who is not what YOU consider a true christian is ruled by the devil.
the problem is you do not see. so as a blind person, you presume too much. the spirit of the Lord will always offset the actions of the devil. therefore, you must open your blinded spirit if you are to observe the righteousness.
- SirDentposted 11 years ago0
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
I love the words in red! - SirDentposted 11 years ago0
Mark 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
Mark 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses. Melissa - You seem to be missing what I said entirely. You were the one who said you get the same three verses about not really being a Christian "every time"; I wasn't even directing the verses at you, but was using them to demonstrate that those who are murdering in the name of God demonstrate through their actions that they are not of God.
It has nothing to do with you bashing me in particular. I've noted you repeatedly bashing Christianity itself; this is very different than you simply disagreeing with me or others.
Here is a sampling of your own words against Christianity (there are many others from other places on these forums):
Melissa says, "There are parts of it (Christianity) that are quite dangerous"; "Are you okay with your religion causing children to die?"; "That's why your religion causes so many deaths"; "The parents that do it (cause death of their children) are embraced by the church"; "I can pull up thousands of examples of parents killing their kids because of their faith in God. THOUSANDS. It is indeed Christianity"; "How about the countless indigenous tribes that suffered extinction at the hands of well-meaning Christian missionaries that were spreading the word of God? (And smallpox, influenza... hell in some cases the common cold)"
These are just some of the many things you have spoken against Christianity. I am not saying this is true of you, Melissa, but when you speak SO MANY words AGAINST Christianity, it gives the impression that you are claiming to be a believer for the purpose of legitimizing or permitting your words against it (the thought often goes that speaking against one's own country is okay, but not against someone else's; speaking against one's own ethnicity is okay but not someone else's, etc.)
Just as a man who truly loves his wife does not tolerate well ill words about her, so also we must keep in mind that the "church" (believers, Christians) are the "bride" of Christ, and though she may be yet imperfect here on earth, God has made her "perfect" and flawless in his sight through his own sacrifice for her, and he may not tolerate well words spoken against his beloved wife.I understand that in your own mind there is only one kind of Christian, and you are that kind. But I have found that some are more Christlike than others and you are NOT one of them.
As an unbeliever you speak against Christianity. Why wouldn't you? You do not state that you are a believer.
You can see for yourself her own words against Christianity. I am saying nothing about her.As an believer you speak against Atheism. Why wouldn't you? You do not state that you are a unbeliever.
No, I didn't see any words against Christianity, only your particular version of it, the part that makes you look un-christlike.
You just did dear, and then there is that very long post where you did say plenty about her.
Just my opinion, I'm in no way defending her or pulling her into a conversation. I don't need to, she can handle herself just fine. She's all grown up.I was giving you credit, Rad Man, that you were not calling yourself a believer and then speaking against the faith, the word, Christians and so on.
I am now "un-Christ-like" because when speaking of the faith of others helping people, I pointed out scripture in which the parents' faith brought about Jesus' actions in freeing people from demons? That doesn't even make sense. Jesus was the one referring to demons regularly.
If someone says Christianity causes deaths, and says of the killing of children "It is indeed Christianity", how are these not "words against Christianity"?
I'm letting her words speak for themselves. I wasn't addressing her or talking about her when I gave verses about true Christians; she implicated herself.You did it again, you complain that she speaks against your particular version of Christianity and then claim to have not said anything about her.
I said I was letting her words speak for themselves. To say the killing of children "is indeed Christianity", which is absolutely not true, is speaking against Christianity in general, not any particular version of it.
She indeed said that. She stands by that.
She said that if Christianity tells someone to do something and they do it and a kid dies from it, then Christianity is to blame.
She is sorry if you are in denial. She also knows that you will not be the one judging her so what you think of her words means dick.
She desparately wishes that it wasn't against her faith to judge other people, because she is terribly embarrassed by the actions of other Christians. She thanks God she follows Jesus instead of other Christians.The thing is though that Christianity never told anyone to do anything violent that could cause a kid to die, so Christianity can't be blamed for what Christianity never said to do.
Read the examples above and reply.
And Christianity indeed tells people to kill, murder, rape, still, lie, torture etc.
Christ didn't... but then, Christianity doesn't necessarily follow Christ. Actually, it almost never does. Too bad so many Christians follow Christianity.
This is Christianity. Your denial of such makes sure they continue to exist.
Melissa, the child with the hateful sign is an example of a Satanic perversion of the word of God. This is NOT true Christianity.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him" John 3:16-17The boy basically photo bombs Westboro's protest.
His little homemade sign says "God hates no one."
Except there's no reason to think her opinion and interpretation is the truth.
No, I never thought her opinion was valid. I was a Christian once, yes, but the doctrine and beliefs I followed do not resemble hers in the slightest, and we were Southern Baptists. She's even too fringe for Baptist theology.
Her interpretation of Scripture and opinions about it do not automatically equal truth, especially when so many other Christians disagree with her assessment.
Except Cat has a cheering squad telling her that everything she believes is absolutely right, no matter how destructive it is.
The sign is a result of 6 Bible verses that say that are interpreted, even by those "real" Christians on these very forums, as saying that homosexuality is an abomination. Those believers, who are accepting the word as written, are defending the Bible and God in a from-the-heart belief that what they are doing is helping to prevent sin. They are all saved. They all believe in God. They all have the holy spirit... (Because you are given that when you become saved, yes?)
That's not the Devil, hon. That's Christianity. And at the heart of things, a good portion of Christians have interpreted the word in EXACTLY the same way and believe EXACTLY the same thing. They just haven't made the sign... and probably wouldn't use the exact same words.
Of course it's against Christianity. That is what she is trying to tell you. You clearly sounded like you were in favour of not letting children suffer and even suggested that she ended her childs life early to end the suffering. So, if doing so doesn't sound very Christian than what can we deduce? Are you sounding Christlike?
I am in favor of God, the author of life, taking his children who are suffering to himself.
Occasionally a person whose child is dying is in the difficult position of making such a decision and communicating this to medical staff. I don't judge whether the person keeps them alive or lets them go to God. I would seek direction from God, so I can't say which decision I would make if I were in that position.
And every single one of those things is true. You would rather ignore it and pretend it didn't happen, I would rather try to fix it so that it doesn't happen again.
Pointing out the truth isn't bashing... it's saying "Hey, maybe someone might want to do something about this."
Unless it doesn't bother you. I have a feeling, though, that it would have bothered Jesus.
I follow Jesus. Christianity is so unlike what Jesus stood for. You seem to be fine with that. I'm not.Melissa - I don't pretend people haven't twisted the words of God and done horrific acts "in the name of Jesus"; however, these are not the acts of those who know God and follow him. Rather they are the acts of those who are deceived. They may even believe themselves to be followers of Christ, but they are in reality followers of Satan, not God.
The TRUTH is not that Christianity has caused the atrocities, but that the deceiver who twists and distorts is the one causing the atrocities. We need to make sure we're pointing the finger at the right one. Acts of darkness are perpetrated by those who belong to the darkness; those who belong to the light act as children of the light and are not murdering in the name of God.
Please don't pretend I'm fine with any distortions of the word, any acts of violence, or any other acts of wickedness. I am extremely troubled by evil, and all the more when it is claimed to be in the name of God, but we need to know who the enemy is. The enemy is not Christians or Christianity; it is Satan and the rulers of the dark world.
Ephesians 6:12 "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."OK, missionaries go to Africa to spread the word of God. Their colds kill the entire tribe.
Were they twisting the word?
Parents read the Bible believe their kid is possessed by evil spirits. Take the kid to clergy. Kid dies during exorcism.
Who was twisting the word there?
Shall I keep going? Or is denying responsibility for those two examples sufficient for you? I can bring up tons more.If in the word we see Jesus commanding demons to come out of people, but never harming a single person in so doing, and we are told in the word that we have the same authority to command demons to come out in the name of Jesus, but then we have a clergy performing some sort of violent exorcism, I would say, yes, that clergy twisted what we've been given in scripture.
Even if he was lovingly performing the exorcism? If he truly loved the child and was trying to rid it of "demons"? No violence.
Hint: Yes, I can pull up links where "loving" exorcisms killed the child. Being told you are possessed by demons can be a bit stressful.
Yep, you missed the ones about the kind missionaries too... were they warping God's word?You are blaming Christians for unintentionally spreading a cold virus?
Are there still missionaries?
Yes.
Do they know that they could potentially kill entire villages with their diseases?
Obviously.
Do they keep going?
Yes.
Regardless, it doesn't have to be intentional. Christians, following the Bible, killed thousands. Are you OK with the collateral damages? Obviously. Would you like more examples?
The point that I'm making... AGAIN... is that Christianity causes bad things to happen. Now, it doesn't ONLY cause bad things to happen. Sometimes it causes really good things to happen. However, if you continue to ignore the bad things, then they never get fixed... which means they keep happening. If you willfully continue to ignore the bad things, even when SHOWN they are happening, then yes you are choosing to allow those things to happen.
This is all pretty simple. Have you ever really sat down-without the knee-jerk "My faith is the most perfectest thing in the whole wide world" glasses and really looked at what it causes. Have you ever said "Hey, the Bible says that children can be possessed by demons... I wonder what that statement could ultimately lead to?" or "Hey, the Bible says that homosexuals are an abomination... I wonder if that could lead to prejudice?"
Then, when you figure out "Oh crap, I guess bad things could happen from both of those statements." Then you might want to ask the holy spirit "Would Jesus be OK if the Word, even accidentally, caused prejudice and dead children?" (or, would Jesus be OK with entire villages of people dying because of his words? Because he never really struck me as a collateral damage is fine kinda guy)
When you get the (hopefully) obvious answer, then you might want to pray for guidance on what, possibly, you might be able to do to help stop such things from happening.
Or, conversely, you could say that anyone pointing out this is obviously a big mean fake Christian that is personally attacking, you, God, and every Christian (real one) out there.
Wow.
Keep the faith, Cat. Do not get weary in well doing.
Righteous Atheist and Rad Man -
"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" Romans 6:1-2
Forgiveness of sins is absolutely NOT a free ticket to continue sinning. The one who has been freed from the bondage of sin now lives as a slave of righteousness.
We are ALL sinners (myself included). God DECLARES us righteous in spite of our sinful tendencies, not because of anything we have done, but because of his love for us and his fulfillment of the law for us and the payment of his own death for us.
May God bless you both.So - this is why you are allowed to continue to sin. Interesting - is this why so many Christians are murderers and rapists? Because they get a free pass to continue sinning?
We are not "allowed to continue to sin", Righteous Atheist. Once freed from our bondage to sin, we are now free to go forth in acts of righteousness. Nevertheless, we have One who we can turn to and who will faithfully heal us and restore us when we do mess up. All praise to God for his faithfulness!
It is not that the Christians are murdering and raping; it is rather that some of the murderers and rapists are recognizing their need for a Savior, putting their faith and hope in Jesus, turning from their past wickedness and now embracing the truth of the good news about Jesus Christ. Matthew 21:31 "I assure you: Tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God before you!"So - you are without sin then? You said you continued to sin. How many can you murder before it doesn't work any more?
Not being allowed, isn't the same as not being able. We are told to go and sin no more, that is the goal, but we are human and it is in every human's nature. That's why Jesus paid the price for our sins. We are told to confess our sin and repent (turn away from it) when we fail.
Interesting. I always wondered why so many of you sin. You get the free pass after all as long as you repent. Disgusting.
Wouldn't it be better for all if you learned some morals instead?For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
That's everybody. Do you think *I think I'm better than you?
The difference is, I recognize that I cannot please God without the forgiveness of sin.
So I seek Him. That's it... I confess my sin openly, I ask God to forgive me and when I confess my sin, "He is faithful and just to forgive our sin." He may still allow us to live with the consequences here on earth. If I kill someone, I'm most likely still going to jail, but if I look at the sin, hate the sin and turn from the sin, b/c He hates the sin, He will forgive me. It may seem complicated... but it's so simple a child can understand. That's why He tells us to come to Him like children.No - it doesn't seem complicated at all. It does explain why so many self professed Christians continue to kill and rape - I get it now. As long as you say sorry and repent you are good to go so you continue to sin and then repent afterwards. Thanks for explaining it so well - and in childish terms as well. Much appreciated.
You sure it wouldn't be better for you to develop a moral code instead?The truly repentant are not going to make a practice of sin, they will not "continue to kill and rape" as you say, Righteous Atheist. 1 John 3:9 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God." 1 John 5:18 "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin. Rather the Son of God protects them, and the evil one cannot harm them."
We do all continue to have our sinful human nature (see Romans 7:15-23, for example), so that it is often a struggle to do the right thing and we do slip here or there, but we do not continue in a lifestyle of sin, continuing to rape or kill.So now, not only are you capable of discerning true Christians (everyone who agrees with you) from fake Christians (everyone else who tries to follow Christ, but disagrees with you) you are also claiming who is and who isn't truly repentant as well. Aren't Christians supposed to be humble?
Furthermore, several Christians, yourself included, admit to still sinning despite your repentance. By your own definition. Doesn't that mean that you are not truly repentant and not true Christians? I can't really imagine Jesus finding arguing with other Christians (your brothers and sisters) and flinging scripture at people who don't care about scripture to be a wise use of time. It's certainly not making me interested in god, and it's not making me think highly of "true Christians" if you're the example.The Spirit has told ALL Christians how to discern the real followers and teachers from the deceivers. Christians don't need to agree on everything and they may debate many topics (e.g., can one lose salvation), but the central messages are generally agreed on by those who follow the lead of the Spirit.
I will not look at an individual and say whether or not they are truly repentant for any act. But I will say that if persons continue to rape and murder they are showing themselves to be unrepentant by their own actions because if they were truly "made new in Christ" the new creation would not murder and rape.
I am humble before my Lord. I understand that my own opinions count for nothing, and I listen and look for HIS wisdom. I am constantly learning. I hunger for rebukes from the wise. I fully acknowledge my imperfections, weaknesses, shortcomings and so on. I recognize that I can do nothing without God, yet I can do all things through him who gives me the strength. I understand that any person now opposing the message of the cross may one day become a believer and be given far greater understanding and discernment than I've been given.But not people, so you are not humble.
And yet you continue to give it. Why?
For those who don't repent the sin remains and for those that do all is forgiven. Everyone has sinned, but yours is forgiven so you are without sin. It's a good thing we have secular laws or we could murder as many people as we want and then simply claim that it's okay because I've repented and won't do it anymore until someone else messes with me.
It is more that she is COUNTED or CONSIDERED by God as one without sin, not that she (or I) are without sin. "The righteous will live by faith". We are covered in the blood of Jesus, so that God does not see our sins when he looks at us; he sees Jesus' sacrifice on our behalf; he sees Jesus' righteousness. We are HIDDEN in Christ.
Believers cannot as you say, Rad Man, "murder as many people as we want and then simply claim that it's okay because I've repented..." Below I've copied my response to Righteous Atheist who made similar statements.
The truly repentant are not going to make a practice of sin, they will not "continue to kill and rape" as you say, Righteous Atheist. 1 John 3:9 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God." 1 John 5:18 "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin. Rather the Son of God protects them, and the evil one cannot harm them."
We do all continue to have our sinful human nature (see Romans 7:15-23, for example), so that it is often a struggle to do the right thing and we do slip here or there, but we do not continue in a lifestyle of sin, continuing to rape or kill.And we are back to human sacrifices again.
"We are covered in the blood of Jesus, so that God does not see our sins"
How barbaric.
So it's not that you haven't sinned, it's that God (the only one that knows sin) can't see your sin. Which means you have no sin while others do. Man, I wish there were a God just so I could see you face when you stand before him"Jesus, God himself, is the only sacrifice!
You are right to say "So it's not that you haven't sinned", "it's that God can't see your sin". By his own design and in his own wisdom, God came up with a way to COVER our sins, so that the righteous Father who cannot look on sin can now be RECONCILED with his beloved creation who cannot help but sin.
ALL those who accept the gift of salvation, who are covered in the blood of Jesus, who live by faith instead of works, ALL are hidden in Christ and are looked upon by God as though they have no sin.
You too are offered this gift. You may either say "yes, cover over my sins and see Jesus instead when you look at me", or "no, I want to stand in my sins and myself pay the penalty that Jesus already paid".Actually what's happened is that someone has invented a way to do as you please and live guilt free.
You may not understand this, but I live an ethical/moral life without the need to please any God. Perhaps you can't do that so you imagine that a God that you aim to please can't see your sins.
You see I hurt no one and I can do that without the fear of God. When I do error, I apologies to the person I hurt and take responsibility for my actions. I don't repent to God, and then pretend nobody can see my mistakes. It's not that I'm better than you it's just that well I'm honest.Psalm 19:12 "But who can discern their own errors? Forgive my hidden faults."
Btw, congrats Rad Man on being the only person ever to have lived who can honestly say "I hurt no one."
I am aware of many, many of my faults and shortcomings (and others no doubt linger without my current awareness), and I readily and honestly acknowledge that these exist. But thanks be to God when he looks at me he sees me as flawless in Christ Jesus my Lord, and this is true for ALL who are his - his collective "bride" who will be presented to him as beautiful and perfect thanks to the covering of Jesus himself. All praise and glory be to our Righteous Lord! To him be glory forever and ever.
"All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." 2 Corinthians 5:18-21
Wow. I didn't realize that there were people alive today who don't sin, but you've made it pretty clear that there are - all those that are "truly repentant". At least in your opinion, and that of the people claiming to write for John.
Not sure I can agree with either you OR John, as I've met an awful lot of Christians, all of whom say they are born again and not a one of them are perfect. All sin, even by the twisted biblical definitions.
- SirDentposted 11 years ago0
Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Isaiah 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. - SirDentposted 11 years ago0
Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
- Deepes Mindposted 11 years ago0
It's interesting to see how easy it is to try to shine a spotlight on the actions of others and decide whether they are real or not while simultaneously trying to cover up, rationalize, and justify our own actions. But at the end of the day, all of us who believe must keep Matthew 7:1-5 in mind as it relates to our treatment of one another as Christians as well as those that lack belief
This post looks as if you are judging someone who is judging? But in any case I wish you the best. You will be missed my friend. Live long and prosper.
Just making a general observation of behavior that I am guilty of at times myself.
Thanks Rad Man, but I highly doubt my absence will be noticed after a whileDon't take this the wrong way, none of us would. I'm not here to be appreciated, as you can see. I'm here for several very selfish reasons. I'm aware I can and will effect no one. I find it entertaining and I practice skills that I am lacking in.
- SirDentposted 11 years ago0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnmDRGYHtGc
One of the best songs ever written and sung. When people speak against the God I love, I defend my God. If people speak against his bride, I'll defend her also.
You can speak against me, even slander and make false statements about what I'm saying, but in the end it is my God who defends me.That's one messed up post. Does your Gods bride defend you as well?
Gee, that's kind of what I'm doing. Defending my Jesus and what not.
I don't expect God to defend me. I'm pretty good on my own. I also don't think I'll be defending everyone who calls themselves a Christian even if I disagree with them. I have a faith, not a cult.Do you think an all mighty, all powerful god needs you to defend him? The guy that destroyed the entire earth witha flood? That God?
Why is it so hard for you to admit that Christianity has been responsible for some horrible atrocities? Does it expand to other religions? Do Muslims who fly planes into buildings not act according to the will of Allah? Are they not true Muslims, then? Or is it the fallacy of special pleading only for your belief system?
You're out here daily dating people are twisting your words and making false statements about you. It seems like you do care about your reputation quite a bit, and I don't see a god stepping in to defend you. Maybe it means you're wrong. You may want to rethink that.It's not about God needing to be defended. If someone spoke ill about your loved one and you defended them, would this really be because they NEEDED to be defended?
Are you angry about the flood? Do you not know that the one who gives you every breath you breath is not obliged to give you breath eternally? Do you know that the earth was filled with violence and creatures who were not merely human but had mated with the fallen angels? Do you think God did wrong to bring down his judgment? Why not rather be thankful he has made a promise never to do so again until that appointed time of judgment?
The deceiver and his forces have been responsible for the horrible atrocities of perversions, torture and murder, whether they do it through those who falsely and deceptively claim the name of Jesus, those who follow demon gods, or whoever. This is not the doing of Christianity. This is a lie against the bride of Jesus.
I'm here for a little while and then I'll be gone. These are all FALSE words that have been said about me: I have claimed to be the only one without sin, I am a Mormon, I have said it is okay to continue sinning, I have encouraged parents to kill their children to spare them from a life of suffering, I have encouraged parents to kill their children through exorcism. Not one of these statements is true. When many attempt to falsely bring charges against you, to intentionally put false words into your mouth, then it really makes you aware of what a spiritual battle you are in, and how important the message must be for so many to want to twist it!
My God is and will continue to defend me! I do not complain when he allows me to suffer a little while. I thank my God that I share in his sufferings to that I will be overjoyed when I also share in his glory!None of my loved ones are supposedly all-powerful deities that could erase the universe with a simple snap of their fingers. Any god who is offended by dissent and disagreement who needs a created being to defend his "honor" against those who do not accept him comes across as a simpering idiot with ego issues - not a god. And a god that would behave that way is not worthy of worship. Do you think your god is a petulant, insecure child? Because you're kind of treating him like one.
Why do always assume the worst about others who disagree with you? The flood was an atrocity brought about by your god, if the story is to be believed, but that doesn't meant that I'm automatically angry about it. I don't think the flood happened. I have no anger towards your god because I don't think that god exists. I'm angry about a lot of things that his followers do when the follow the example of the Old Testament god who had no qualms about mass-murder and genocide, and not the example of Jesus who they claim to worship and follow. You're saying that because god gave everyone life, he has the power to take that life away. That amounts to a parent saying "I brought you into the world, and I can take you out of it". It's childish.
No, it's not a lie against the bride of Christ. You saying that the people that did these things are not "true christians" is ultimately meaningless, because they would say the same of you. You can post verses that support your opinion. So can they. So what? Ultimately, it's two parts of Christianity that disagree. It's not surprising, there are over 40,000 denominations who can't agree on much. Again, it doesn't automatically make you right and them wrong. It makes you a person with an opinion. Everyone else has opinions too. Yours has no more weight than any other, and I haven't seen a single example in these forums of you taking responsibility for the things done in the name of your god by people who were also interested in defending and following his word who did it differently than you did. You just want to denounce all of those other Christians because they make you feel icky. I understand it, but I don't have to agree with it.
You say he will continue to defend you, when no one has seen him defend you at all. He's absent. Where is his defense? How in the name of Pete do you think you're suffering? People are disagreeing with you and criticizing your posts - the words that come out of your mouth. How, in ANY sense, does that equate to suffering? Is anyone torturing you and causing you physical pain? Are you in danger of imprisonment or execution? Are your rights being stripped away? Are you being prevented from speaking your mind? The answer to all of those questions is a resounding NO.God does not NEED to be defended, as I mentioned in the last post, but we nonetheless defend those we love.
Parents are only the MEANS by which we come into the world. The AUTHOR of life, God alone, who provides us every breath we take, is the One and only who has the right to determine when are lives begin and end.
Our opinions count for little; God's everlasting word is what counts.
No, there are NO verses that support a "Christian" engaging in atrocities (such as murder) in the day of the Lord's favor when we have been given the message of love, reconciliation and the like. God is still a God of justice, along with being a God of love, and a day of judgment has been set; however, the message to the people is that they have the wonderful opportunity to come to God, be cleansed and freed from their sins, and live with God for eternity, rather than face their due penalty of death, which Jesus so lovingly took for them.
Many follow demons rather than the One True God, including many who masquerade as children of the light.
How do you know how God defends or what future glory awaits his faithful ones?
Psychological suffering is a form of suffering. Regularly having your words twisted, being falsely accused, etc. is not a psychologically healthy experience. I am not here as the many who say "I don't mind what people say; It doesn't bother me". Rather I confess to you that I have a sensitive nature. I was sent here with the message in spite of (or perhaps because of) my many weaknesses.
Just so I am clear on this - you are here to defend your god? And you don't stop to wonder what a feeble sort of god needs you to defend it? What are you defending it from exactly? It can be hurt? How pathetic. You must not be talking about the god in the bible that can wipe us out with a word. Which pathetic god are you defending?
God doesn't NEED to be defended, Righteous Atheist, we defend the ones we love. Yes, God hurts. Yes, this is the God in the Spirit-inspired word - the one who weeps over his children, cries out in pain, longs to gather them as a loving mother, and so on. All this is recorded in the word he has given and maintained for us.
So - the god who murdered every living soul except one family because he was annoyed at them asked you to defend it? Sure you are not making this up? - because your weeping, cries in pain god burns liars for eternity.
Show me where it says your pathetic weenie god weeps and cries out in pain like a little girl.God did NOT ask me to defend him. He is my loving Father and I am his loving daughter, and I chose to defend the one I love, as we defend those we love, whether they NEED it or not.
Regarding the flood, God "started over" in a sense not because he was merely "annoyed" with the people he created, but because the people were violent murderers and he was grieved that he had even created them (not to mention the fallen angels had mated with them and corrupted them). Genesis 6:5-6, “And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.”
I will show you where God weeps, but not like a "little girl". You see people are so silly (or perverse) they turn everything upside down - God weeps, animals do not; yet people try to portray the absence of weeping as superior and weeping as inferior. It was my own silly tendency - as a little girl I almost never wept, even when I required medical treatment (and I still don't really cry from physical pain), but as I matured spiritually, I weep all the time over spiritual matters (I have shed a tear for you, Righteous Atheist, though you probably don't believe me). You will find many grown men who never wept in their natural states, weeping as they are spiritually awakened.
Here are verses about God hurting and/or weeping:
Jeremiah 8:21 ” For the hurt of the daughter of my people am I hurt."
Isaiah 42:14 "For a long time I have kept silent, I have been quiet and held myself back. But now, like a woman in childbirth, I cry out..."
John 11:35 "Jesus wept."
Also, God's prophets who had the Spirit and heart of God, all wept for the people.
You try to mock, but "Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap." (Galatians 6:7).So it doesn't NEED defending. But you are defending it anyway. What are you defending it from exactly?
Feel free to shed as many tears as you like for me - whatever makes you feel good about yourself. But - no I don't believe you for one second.
Jeremiah 8:10 Therefore will I give their wives unto others, and their fields to them that shall inherit them:
Isiah 42:15 I will lay waste the mountains and hills and dry up all their vegetation;I will turn rivers into islands and dry up the pools.
Keen to know what you are defending your imaginary friend from though, because he seems capable of taking care of the business of murder and rape just fine without you. Do tell.I'm curious, do you believe the story as a global flood that killed all life on earth except for what was in the boat?
Careful. You are speaking with The Defender of the Creator of the Universe.
Are you Zelkiiro? Why not post as yourself? Were you banned from the forums?
Why do you think every one is using all these duplicate accounts, Radman?
Everyone? Who else but cat333 is doing it?
Who else is doing it? But yes - cat333 was banned as cjsimonelli and doesn't believe in rendering unto caesar.
Oh... well I hate to assume that's true without her verifying it. I was avoiding these threads for a while so I never really read CJ's posts so the voice doesn't sound familiar. It's funny how no matter what face you plaster over a profile pic, the voice still comes thru the same... even when ppl try to disguise it.
Weird - you assumed I was doing it but when it is another believer.
Well, I had already known you were... things you had said earlier... I never caught CJ and I only read Cat for the first time the other day. Do you remember spinning in circles endlessly as a child, then falling on the ground and looking at the sky? That's me most the time.
But you are wrong. Guess that probably won't bother you, but you know what your god does to those who bear false witness. Or maybe that doesn't apply to you?
Stop winking, either you mean what you say or you don't.
Wrong about what? That you're Zman? Yeah, I don't know who you are, that's why I asked.Awww - and who are you #37? The wink goes with watching believers go against the word of god as though it doesn't apply to them.
STOP WINKING! lol
Everyone knows me as beth37. I'm not gonna use my real last name, right? That kinda makes sense, but the problem is all of a sudden JordanBlue turns up saying all the things I might say, only under a fake id... and then AngelaWestinghousetheIV makes an appearance and pretends to be a new addendum to the group... oy vey. When does it end? Just be yourself. It's so convoluted.
You keep playing guess the sock puppet. You keep getting it wrong. The voice must not come through as much as you think it does.
No. I am. No. That is cat you are thinking of. You know - The Defender of The Creator of the Universe. Odd you did not attack her - how come?
Hey cat333. Bless you dear precious sister for sharing the truth. I was thinking of jumping in but it is like clanging cymbals. Today I am led to write a hub. I wanted to say God Bless and keep going dear child of God. U Will! Phil 4:13. This post may get some grief (like I am cowardly or something similar) perhaps not. No worries, I know who I belong to. Amen. Hugs Galore sista. Love ya, Skye
And you wonder why your religion causes so many conflicts.
Thank you so much, sister skye2day! May God bless you and may your hub bring glory to him!
Wow - he needs glory from hubs as well as defending?
I'm going to have to weigh in on this. I agree with RA. God would need no defense. Were God offended, God could certainly act in a manner to assure all knew it. I would assume the same would be true of Jesus.
You are defending your ideas, your beliefs. I realize it must be difficult. I saw where someone posted a picture of a child who probably belongs to someone in the Westboro Baptist Church. Attempting to graft beliefs such as that onto your own, in order to make you feel guilty, is unfair and only done to elicit emotional response. It's a cheap shot. But, the forums are full of those.
Anyway. You need to accept that no one is attacking God, Jesus or anything metaphysical. They are simply questioning your beliefs. As should you. We all should. Only by introspection can we understand why we think what we think and put ourselves into a position to realistically understand how our actions affect the world around us. And, your interaction with the world is said to be as important as your interaction with your God.If you're talking about the pic I posted, you misunderstood it. Maybe you are talking about the pic Melissa posted.
Thank you for your sensitivity, Emile R. And you are right to say God NEEDS no defense.
I am defending the living God, not merely ideas or beliefs. I have had to discipline myself to make my beliefs line up with the word of God. And it hasn't always been easy. In my natural state, there are things I would love to have different. For instance, I would have women as the spiritual leaders of the family, lol, because so often they seem to be more spiritually aware and spiritually beautiful than the majority of men (with obvious exceptions; no disrespect to my beloved brothers in Christ); yet I don't decide because I am not God, and I think it is precisely because women tend to be more spiritually beautiful that they have initially been given the second role, so that God can as he always does make "the first last and the last first".
May God bless you, Emile R!What are you defending it from exactly? Little diddums god is crying that some one doesn't believe it exists?
Ummm. Have you actually read the book you are referring to? I know Paul didn't appear to think much of women, but women were leaders in the early church. Your ideas line up with the 'word of God' as your specific branch dictates and as a male dominated society taught your specific branch to dictate. Nothing more.
Give the rest of the world some credit. Heck. Give your God some credit. Come to the light and out of the dark ages.Historically speaking, yes. Women were leaders in the early church. Paul didn't disassociate from women leaders, but as a Jew he did firmly believe that men should lead. Don't discount the ideas that some saw a pagan influence in having women leaders. 'Male dominated' is an easy thing for 21st century people to say, but what would we have thought had we lived at that time in that place? What about Paul's Jewish-oriented ideas vs. some of the more pagan-influenced ideas found in Rome or Corinth?
Yes, women were leaders in the early church and they make up the majority of those in the churches today. Further, God pours out his Spirit generously on both women and men in these last days (as he prophesied he would in the old testament book of Joel), so that both women and men prophecy (speak the words of God, bring messages, teach, etc.). Even further, it was women who Jesus Christ FIRST revealed himself to upon rising from the dead. In many ways women (who were created second and so on) have already become the "first" while men in many ways have already become "last" (again, there are many brothers that are led by the Spirit, and this is not meant as any disrespect to them who have fulfilled their call).
This truth that the "first will be last and the last will be first" is the way it works with God so that it may be based on his mercies and gifts, and not on that which was obligated by the order of things - the Jewish nation Israel was called first, but the Gentiles (the rest of us) are answering first (Jews will still come to salvation); the firstborn privileges were so often going to an "undeserving" later born. Why take offense for example as a "gentile" who was called second to a Jew, when you see that God has designed a way for you who were last to be first? While humility is not valued in most societies today, in the kingdom of God humility is of far greater worth than pride; the humble get the honor.
To deny the INITIAL order of things is not truth, regardless of what our nature desires (and my nature desired to say there never was an initial order when it came to men and women). But that is not truth. But you are right that God values women and men equally, and in making the "first last and the last first", the men are abandoning their instructions to be spiritual leaders in the household, and women are becoming "first" as they in greater numbers now spiritually lead.You make many assumptions that simply are not described in scripture. God values men and women equally (now) solely because society does and women will not tolerate being second class citizens. Not because God changed anything at all.
We see that all through religion, and specifically through Christianity. Slaver is not tolerated today, but God is fine with it. Terrible, sinful and evil clothing is common, but not tolerated by God. Homosexuality is tolerated, but not by God. If you are honest, you can clearly see this - whether you accept it (you don't appear to) is up to you.I think you might accept that people can *honestly* see things differently. Irritating, but sincere. The Bible has enough in it to support all kinds of interpretations.
"I the LORD do not change." Malachi 3:6
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." Hebrews 13:8
"But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first." Matthew 19:30
"So the last will be first, and the first will be last." Matthew 20:16
"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:28
"Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." Galatians 3:8
"It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you (Jews) first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. For so the Lord has commanded us, 'I have placed you as a light for the gentiles, that you may bring salvation..." Acts 13:46-47
"She is your equal partner in God's gift of new life" 1 Peter 3:7
"The older will serve the younger." Genesis 25:23I presume, then, that you stoned your children for not being respectful? Or did God change His mind?
But I do understand; it is but one of a great many falsehoods in scripture. You know it, but to admit it even to yourself means your God is a lie. So you don't, but you really should expect others to recognize that the religion has changed in almost every thing it does or says over the past two millenia. Very little of the original though remains.There is no falsehood in scripture. There is only the misunderstanding of those who read... or hear of stuff from other ppl, but don't actually read themselves.
If you have read the bible as extensively as you say you have then you know He does not, so skip to the chase.
but the bible says he does. And he doesn't. If god does not change (Malachi 3:6) then how can both be true?
Jeremiah 20:7
"O LORD, you misled me, and I allowed myself to be misled. You are stronger than I am, and you overpowered me. Now I am mocked every day; everyone laughs at me"
2nd Samuel 24 - God told David to take a census of his people - and then punished him for taking a census of his people
Genesis 22:1 - God tested (tempted) Abraham.
Furthermore, in the Lord's prayer in Matthew 6, it says "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one". Why would you have to pray to God to NOT lead you into temptation? Wouldn't god be leading you OUT or AWAY from temptation?I numbered your statements for clarity, I hope you don't mind.
1) God persuaded him to prophesy, he did and found himself in shackles. He was much like Jonah in that he did not wholly give his heart over to sharing the msg, he simply obeyed b/c he felt God was leaving him little room to back out of the task. The word "deceive" in this text is very much the word "persuade". God does not deceive, I can post a dozen verses that say there is no evil in Him.
2) God was angry at David for taking the census b/c it was pride that caused him to do it. The bible says that Satan instigated the census (I chron 21:1) but in deed God allowed Satan to test David. (2 Sam 24:1) God does not tempt mankind to sin.
3) What was the temptation here? It was not a temptation at all. God tested Abraham's faithfulness, God knew he would pass the test, and he did.
4) "Lead us not into temptation" is not the worry that God will, it is only a full thought with "but deliver us from evil." It is simply man's request to be kept safe from the enemies schemes. The verse doesn't say "I the Lord will do my best not to tempt you." The verse you posted are man's words... man's request... we are limited in our understanding. Our requests will most often be made from a human perspective.Even if all of your other points are valid, I'm concerned with your interpretation of David in Samuel. The bible explicitly says in 2 Samuel 24:1 "Again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah" It says the Lord incited David against him. Samuel says nothing about the Devil being there. So if 1 Chronicles says the Devil did it and 2nd Samuel says god did it, they can't both be right, can they?
I was just thinking about that today... about how God knows mankind. Our love of mystery and puzzles and actively solving them. Can you imagine if He'd just given the 10 commandments and nothing else? A set of rules, the end.
He tells us to "work out our faith with fear and trembling."
So since we have this* verse and we know that in God, there is no evil, we then put the pieces of the puzzle together where things may seem cloudy.
*James 1:13 "When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone..."
Here's a good commentary on the subject:
10-13. David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the Lord, I have sinned--The act of numbering the people was not in itself sinful; for Moses did it by the express authority of God. But David acted not only independently of such order of sanction, but from motives unworthy of the delegated king of Israel; from pride and vainglory; from self-confidence and distrust of God; and, above all, from ambitious designs of conquest, in furtherance of which he was determined to force the people into military service, and to ascertain whether he could muster an army sufficient for the magnitude of the enterprises he contemplated. It was a breach of the constitution, an infringement of the liberties of the people, and opposed to that divine policy which required that Israel should continue a separate people. His eyes were not opened to the heinousness of his sin till God had spoken unto him by His commissioned prophet.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commenta … el-24.html
This was a beautiful answer, Beth! I replied before I saw your response.
Great answer. Most ENGLISH if not all English translations render the word "misled" when it is usually meant to "entice or allure". So that is a NOVICE mistake. Jeremiah is saying that God enticed him speak as a Prophet when he did not think he could speak well, or thought he spoke as a child. So Jeremiah is recounting that. The Hebrew - Masoretic Text does not render it as "misled".
Most of the debate and biblical knowledge (if you will) being offered is being pulled from here it looks like.
http://www.evilbible.com/Biblical%20Contradictions.htm
19. God tempts men
Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
God tempts no man
James 1:13
And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel.
- II Samuel 24:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
- I Chronicles 21:1Julie got her degree in theology and religious studies, what was your degree in again?
They were educated by the SPIRIT/GOD himself, the only "Educator" that gives TRUE wisdom!
That's nice dear.
However, JMcFarland can read and knows what the Bible says better than anybody on these boards.
Edit: I forgot about DoubleScorpion, who holds a similar degree.Sorry, I used a name other than her posting name.
I thought that was her real name but wasn't sure. Thanks.
No problem, it was my mistake to use it. I went back and edited it out. Both you and her have my apologies.
Reading the word without the Spirit is like swimming without water - pointless.
Here is the relevance - If someone knows the scripture better than anyone, as you say, but has read it without the guide of the Holy Spirit, then the reading of scripture was as pointless as swimming without water, as it cannot be adequately or fully understood without the Spirit of God himself.
Still not relevant.
They weren't discussing the "meaning" of anything. It was implied she didn't know the words. She knows them better than anyone here (exception possible DS).If true knowledge of the words involves knowing them in their true sense, then one who has ANY Spirit-led knowledge of God's words has more knowledge of them than one who can recite every word, but doesn't "know" them spiritually speaking.
Still irrelevant. Sorry. You're just preaching now. No particular spiritual knowledge needed to know the words... which is what they were talking about.
So, if we don't possess the magical ju-ju, we're sunk. Words written in a book are thus completely incomprehensible to us, therefore we need your interpretation to help us understand correctly, is that right?
It's the interpretation given by the Spirit you need, Encephaloidead. The more we rely on the Spirit for interpretation, the more accurate our interpretations will be. Most Spirit led Christians do agree on at least those Scriptures that are most basic and essential to the faith. The Spirit is the One who guides us into all truth. The more we study the word with him, the more spiritually accurate our understanding will be. Of course, we are all still being taught and led by the Spirit, so none have reached perfection yet (and will not until taken to God), and the Spirit will give revelation as needed, sought, etc.
Sorry, but I keep telling you I don't possess the magical ju-ju you keep calling Spirit. I see no Spirit, I hear no Spirit. Where is this Spirit?
If you recognized the spirit, you would be a believer.
Gee, that's really helpful, thanks a bunch.
Or if you just thought you recognized it.
Or you wanted it badly enough to fabricate something you then called "spirit".
Or it made you feel good to be a part of a "spirit" - really good.
Or...but you get the idea. If you don't question the "spirit", and test the "spirit", you will never know, but few if any do.I question the spirit all the time. Most people call it a conscience. Pretty sure most of us have one. Those who don't make the news quite quickly... usually because police found a nasty surprise in their basement.
The Bible speaks of the spirit of God extensively. You can't make up your own version of God or you have nothing. If your beliefs aren't based on the Bible, you have created a false God.
Thank you Beth for your new and interesting way of saying that I'm not a "True Christian". Once again, unless you can walk across water, I'm pretty comfortable discounting your judgement.
You cannot make up your own rules concerning science or any other religion. Why would you feel safe putting your faith into a doctrine that was based on human teaching and not the inspired word of God. I don't call you anything, I don't know what's going on between you and God. I know He loves you. I know you need Jesus, just as I do, in order to be saved. But no man made God will save you.
This may surprise you Beth, but my views on God, Jesus, and the Spirit come from my own reading of the Bible. No one ever told me what it said. No one ever told me what it meant. My church doesn't do that. We discuss the Bible but there is no doctrine, no dogma, and no preacher telling the congregation what everything means.
I don't need Jesus because I have him already. Thanks for your concern.Yes, it's called a conscience. Like I said before.
You said you've read the Bible... where in the Bible does it say the Spirit of God is your conscience?
Where in the Bible does it explain the Spirit of God?
But, that's exactly what you did, the Bible was written by men, didn't you know that? It's all human teaching.
But, it never actually explains anything about the "spirit of God", what it is, where it is, how it interacts with humans, how to contact it, nothing at all.
I cannot disagree with this, and believe you would question your conscience. But that is not what I refer to when I say "spirit"; that was intended to be my best guess at what Beth means when she uses the word. Some kind of unnatural thing from another universe that tells her what is right and wrong, what she should do and how she should live.
That needs questioned heavily, and tested over and over, to know if it is there, if it is real, and if it is worth listening to. Which is what people never do, at least that I've heard of."Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. 4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error."
I Jn 4 1-6OK - when was the last time you demanded the spirit perform an act violating natural physical laws? Or did a statistical analysis on what actions the spirit is supposed to have done? Or took a hard look at what the spirit has done through you that you could not have done no matter what?
Or do you just "forget" to test and assume it is all good because spirits are good?See? Nothing in there at all explaining anything about the spirit of God.
It when you start believing that it comes from outside of yourself that there is a problem. I agree.
Here's my take on it... Everyone has a conscience. (With the notable exception of psycho/sociopaths). That conscience is surprisingly universal. There are some variables in different cultures and different upbringings, but overall it is surprisingly the same for every human on the planet.
The reason I think that is because of the similarities in morals shown by most laws and most religious systems. Not exactly the same, no, but very close. More alike than different anyway. Doesn't matter what your faith is (or if you don't have one), there are certain things that 9 out of 10 people would consider wrong.
My belief, from the standpoint of my own faith, is that God put that there so we wouldn't exterminate ourselves. The "spirit" is just an extension of that that comes when you start reading the Bible. It just means that Biblical teaching are influencing the conscience...
Nothing mystical and magical. Not from outside. Nothing unique to some humans and not to others. It's when you start thinking that it is mystical and magical and you are the only one who has it or even that only a certain club has it that it creates a problem.God is the Great I AM. He cannot be created or recreated to fit our needs or beliefs. He does not fit into a box of what makes sense to us or what works best for us or our family. He is the Alpha and Omega and He holds the universe in His hand and uses the earth as His footstool. You may think I'm just being a jerk, but I only offer you biblical truth b/c it is the hope of the world and I do wish the best for you.
I've read the Bible Beth. Your opinion of what it means means very little to me, nor are you offering any truth.
Honestly, if you said that God was in the Bible, I'd read it 5 times and pray for guidance just to make sure.Yeah, that's why I'm listening to him instead of you.
Then you know this:
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Jn 14:16
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.…Jn 1:1-3
If God is I AM, and cannot be recreated to fit our desires. If everyone agreed on that premise and, I think theists who disagree on other points do agree on that one. I also think agnostics assume if God exists that is true. I would think atheists would agree, if God existed, that would be true.
There is the problem. Every theist alive is attempting to make the I AM fit their box. The problem is their box isn't only their box. That box contains their needs. It contains their understanding of the thoughts others have had and felt worthy enough to push; and you have accepted because it addresses what you perceive as a need. It contains traces of the bias involved in creating the sect you and those you have accepted as authoritative voices have gathered their beliefs from, so there are trace elements of the beliefs of many who came before them.
I AM equates to a microcosm of humanity when confined to religious dogma. A tiny collective WE ARE shouting within your head to convince you it is I AM.
If I AM is fact it exists everywhere. It would have to or it couldn't claim I AM. Every attempt to deny someone else's understanding is basically saying YOU AREN'T. Not really. One expects this argument from an atheist. It would not be unreasonable to get it from an agnostic.But it is interesting to see theists consistently pushing this argument.First of all, I thought Sir Dent wrote that and I was extremely confused.
To boil my meaning down... No matter what I think, you think, Melissa thinks or ED thinks (each group represented) God is. He is what He is, and Who He is, and not one of our beliefs change that.Yes. I could see your confusion. Sir Dent and I have somewhat different writing styles.
But, I agree. What is, is. No ones beliefs will change that. Which is why I sometimes wonder why we argue vehemently in defense of beliefs.You mean, invisible and undetectable, virtually non-existent?
True, none of your beliefs will change that.
Now here we part ways, at least to some extent.
There are indeed morals that are nearly universal; the golden rule is one such. But there are hundreds of "lesser morals" for lack of a better term, that are most definitely NOT universal and that tend to overrun the more important ones simply by mass of numbers of every day usage. We don't worry every day about treating others as we wish to be treated, but we certainly cover certain parts of the body. Different parts for different societies, too.
I don't see most morals as universal as you do.Yeah, that's that 9 out of 10 I was talking about. You see it even in animal testing and research. MOST animals will respond the same way to the same stimuli but there's always the outliers. There are those who will go against their conscience as well. I know I've done it before, I'm guessing that many people have at least once or twice as well. But that doesn't mean I didn't know it was wrong somehow.
Problem is, you didn't know it was wrong when born. Only after being taught it was wrong, and different cultures teach different things. That 9 out of 10 is things that differ, not agree. Or so I gather from reading of other nations/cultures and TV shows; I've spent very little time out of North America.
Actually, I think you are born "knowing" that certain things are wrong.
Yes, cultural difference exist, but the biggies are universally the same. Murder is frowned upon in pretty much all cultures. (As witnessed by laws and religious writings). Within that in every culture, there is moral relativity... situations where it's more OK than others. Still, the knowledge that it is wrong is obviously there.
Laws against thievery in almost every country, all major religions too... again with moral relativity going up and down the scale. We know it's wrong. Lying, rape, torture of innocents (protection of innocents as well) laws in most nations and most religions.
Our reactions to situations are surprisingly the same as well... Children in distress, people injured, fires, etc. all elicit similar responses across cultures/countries/faiths.
Again, talking about the majority.
I'll find links to some interesting stuff on feral children and isolated populations. I used to have the info lying around. But there are some interesting indicators towards instinctive morality.Murder is banned everywhere - in one's own tribe. Some find it fine to kill outside the tribe. And there have always been human sacrifices, sometimes from within the tribe.
Same with thievery, except that a few cultures do not recognize personal ownership of hardly anything. Nothing to steal, everything to "steal". In addition, some find thievery fine as long as it is the poor stealing from the rich. Shoplifting from WalMart is OK, or from anyone with deep pockets. This is one I very highly disagree with; theft is absolutely rampant in our own society, and it is because it has become moral to steal. There is no other explanation for the number of petty thieves around.
Rape is quite all right - if he marries the girl, even against her will, and continues to rape her. Right? Gang rape is quite acceptable to peoples of India, apparently, and some African countries. At least the men seem to think so, although the women not so much.
I was thinking more of morals not involving harm to another human, but even there there is considerable divergence. More than most of us think.No arguing there. Trust me.
I just find it interesting that we know on a societal level and even on a religious level that certain things are wrong.
I would be hard pressed to really find any examples of moral wrongs that don't hurt other people. The only things I can think of are the sexual issues. And yeah, lots of hang ups on those, but unfortunately most of those hang ups are also kind of universal... or at least common enough that they are within spitting distance. I would agree that those are almost all completely cultural/learned.
Melissa, you write of the Spirit, "Nothing unique to some humans and not to others. It's when you start thinking that it is mystical and magical and you are the only one who has it or even that only a certain club has it that it creates a problem."
1) This sample of scriptures shows you that it is a certain group that receives the Spirit, namely all those who have responded to the offer of salvation that was made to everyone, and now through faith in Christ Jesus they have become the children of God:
“Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38
“You received God’s Spirit when he adopted you as his own children.” (Romans 8:15)
God “anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.” (2 Corinthians 1:21-22; see also 2 Corinthians 5:5)
2) In this sampling of scriptures we see that the Spirit does in fact give power in the spiritual realm; the Spirit does give that which you are referring to when you say "mystical and magical" (as an important note, mystical and magical are words more accurately used for the supernatural in the Satanic or demonic realm, such as those related to magic arts and black magic; spiritual and supernatural power are the words for God's power given to us through the Spirit):
“But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you.” (Acts 1:8)
"And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness." Acts 4:31
“And the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness. For example, we don’t know what God wants us to pray for. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words.” (Romans 8:26)
“Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of the knowledge of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.” (1 Corinthians, 12:7-11)
3) Here we see from the inspired Scriptures the centrality of the Spirit related to the determination of whether one is saved, and the encouragement for those who profess belief to examine themselves to make sure that they have in fact come to a true and saving knowledge of the Lord of the universe - our dear Lord Jesus Christ, who is the Word in the flesh:
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." (John 3:5)
"You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you." Romans 8:9-11Yup - this is probably the most divisive and conflict creating concept humans have invented. Thank you for reminding us why this religion causes so much division and is responsible for so many wars and unnecessary deaths.
Well said.
Sorry to ask again but - you still didn't tell me what it is you think you are defending this god from?
"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth." John 16:13
Yes, "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1
If you only knew how heartbreaking this post is, Encephaloidead! If any part of you in truth desires that the Spirit does reveal himself to you, then I in truth pray that he does! You break my heart more than almost anyone on here!
It is highly unlikely the magical ju-ju will be making an appearance at my doorstep, I tend not to be psychotic.
I remember when,
I remember, I remember when I lost my mind
There was something so pleasant about that place
Even your emotions have an echo in so much space
And when you're out there without care
Yeah, I was out of touch
But it wasn't because I didn't know enough
I just knew too much
Does that make me crazy?
Does that make me crazy?
Does that make me crazy?
And I hope that you are
Having the time of your life
But think twice
That's my only advice
Come on now, who do you
Who do you, who do you, who do you think you are?
Ha ha ha, bless your soul
You really think you're in control?
Well, I think you're crazy
I think you're crazy
I think you're crazy
Just like me
(Gnarls Barkley, Crazy)
Sure are lots of us psychotic folks running around, way more than to be expected, especially amongst us guys and gals who love God!
I was a believer when i was in Bible college, home from being away as a missionary with my parents in Africa. Bad things happen when you start making baseless assumptions about strangers that you don't know. At all. You wouldn't know me from Adam if you passed me on the street. You certainly don't appreciate it when strangers make assumptions about you, from what I've seen. Why don't you try treating others like you demand to be treated?
I really don't care if anyone believes me, and I try not to talk about my education much or my background because of conversations like these. It's much more fun when people underestimate you.Yes, I was aware that you said you were a believer in the past. Christians debate over whether a TRUE believer can lose salvation or not, and I'm not sure if it is simply a matter of semantics or not. I have no revelation on the matter. I won't try to discern whether you were in truth a believer or not - at the very least I believe you believed you were, and it is quite possible you were a true believer. But I will say this: IF you were a TRUE believer, then watch out, precious girl, because your loving Father is coming back to reclaim what is his!
Again, your ignorance of the situation has just caused you to make a horrible, horrible statement. Like you couldn't even imagine how horrible.
But that's bound to happen when you judge people without knowing their story.Melissa, this is NOT a judgment. It is a wonderful thing if she was in truth God's and God will come lovingly for his daughter!
You know what, honestly, I'm glad you are happy in your sheltered world.
I would really appreciate it if you dropped it on this one, before I TOO get banned.Let me tell you something, Cat. I'm sure that it won't affect you in the least little bit, but it's the truth.
If I EVER had a thought presently or would in the future about being a Christian again, I will remember you and this ignorant post and abruptly change my mind. I will NOT become like you. I will NOT worship your god, and I will NOT change my mind. I would rather burn in a hell for eternity (which I don't think exists) than become anything resembling you and your cheering squad.
If you're supposed to be drawing people TOWARDS your god, you can mark in your little scorecard that you just chased someone away from even considering it in the future, permanently. If you have a conscience, let THAT one sink in to it. Maybe your spirit can advise you on that. I'm done.Ive seen you do that before jM. If you were to miss out on Christ, it would solely be your loss. No one's getting any brownie points here. I would like to see you come to the knowledge that God is real and that He loves you, but it doesn't matter who spoke to you last before you made that decision. God does the calling, you do the responding, the bunch of us just scatter some seeds.
No, if I were to miss out on Christ, it would be because his followers were so abhorrent that I wanted nothing to do with his message after they delivered it. "Christians' are left behind to spread the good news. It's their job. They're messing it up and turning people away more often than they're collecting souls.
YOU know some of the story, and you're defending statements like that based in ignorance of the entire situation. That's almost worse. Ignorance can be overcome. I don't know what to call what you're doing other than making excuses for it.Why does everyone always say we are or are not defending someone? I have nothing to do with the ridiculous tangent you're both on right now... I simply saw your rebuttal and have heard you use that before. You cannot use anyone as an excuse if you deny Christ. If you have read the Bible then you know HIM. If you reject Him, then you reject HIM. Pretend no Atheists or Christians exist. Either God sent His son to save you from an eternity apart from Him or He didn't. If He didn't, then you can tell Him that on the other side. I personally have kept nothing back from you.
This is actually the really funny part of a believers argument, they actually believe we purposely and intentionally reject God and Jesus simply because we have read the bible and have not turned into religious zealots, that we have not become them.
The word "indifference" does not appear to exist in their lexicons.
I have found it better no to share personal experiences - there will always be some who try and use the pain against you in order to push their rather offensive beliefs. Sadly - when they say "love" they often mean "believe as I do - I know better than you and it is for your own good." Dent used to do this a lot - seems he has finally learned how offensive that is. Glad to see they can learn. Maybe the cat333 sock puppet will learn and stop but I doubt it.
And now who's hurting people on purpose Beth?
Seems par for the course for you.
Now run off and tell every one how sweet and kind you are and how you are doing Christ's work.
Maybe, but most certainly, there are a great deal of things many here are saying to you that you are missing out on, expect those things are based in reality and have to do with understanding the world around you.
Yes, YOU would like that, but you never take into consideration what other people want for themselves. We are not you and don't have your personal problems.
We don't hear any gods calling us, we only hear the constant bombardment of nattering from Christians who want us to be just like them and will do and say anything to make that happen.
If God was indeed calling us, the din from His followers most certainly is drowning it out.
You know what?
Nevermind, Cat. You have no idea what I went through, and the ignorance and atrocity of this statement ALONE should have you on the wrong end of your god's judgement.
I'm going to shut up now before I tell you how I really feel about what you just did and get myself banned for it. For the last time, I appreciate that you think you're doing god's work, but you're completely ignorant about my circumstances. You should not comment about people or situations that you know NOTHING (and I do mean absolutely NOTHING) about. Why don't you ask god to reveal to you what happened to me, and then maybe - just maybe - you'll understand and apologize. I won't hold my breath.WOW... JUST WOW.. There is so much that is wrong and messed up about this statement on so many different levels
Or is it that so much is RIGHT about this statement that it's almost scaring people? I am referring to her Heavenly Father coming back for her, if she was in fact his. But...
If her earthly father loved God and died, and this played a role in turning her from God, then don't you think her earthly father would also in a sense play a role in this coming for her (as God is faithful through generations). Am I speaking things I should not? Or is God sending JMcFarland a message?you. don't. know. what. you're. talking. about.
Please stop talking about me and my life. Seriously. Just stop. You don't know anything about it.Oh dear God, please just drop it, you're making it worse.
Seriously, if you continue to go on, even after you obviously are causing her pain, then you are going against any claim to Christianity you ever had.Surgeries cause pain, too, but they are not for our harm but for our healing.
I am speaking of what I don't know, but God knows. And God loves her. Do you hear me, Julie, God loves you! Your father loves you and your Father loves you!
Why are the rest of you trying to silence me? Don't you think they want her to have eternal life with them?I'm going to speak very very slowly...
Horrible horrible things were done to her in Christ's name. Things that you couldn't possibly imagine. By telling her that you hope that Christ finds her, you are telling her that you hope she has to go through it again.
Now, here's where you say "But that was them twisting God's word"
And you know what, it doesn't matter one bit. That's how she feels. I am telling you how she feels. If you continue on, then you are doing it on purpose.
Hurting somebody on purpose is evil. It's against everything that Jesus stood for.
Now, make up about 15 reasons why you are right and I am wrong... but frankly, I wouldn't believe anything that came out of your mouth about Christ right now... Your Christ is not the Christ I know.To be clear, you can speak the truth of God's Word without addressing anyone in particular.
Here's why, you've invented a fictitious God in your mind which makes you feel always right and you assume everyone wants this fictitious God in there mind to make them think they are part of a select group that will live on in the afterlife for eternity.
Some prefer reality. Don't you think that if your God was as powerful as you say we'd all be believers?
My understanding of spiritual gifts (namely that od prophesy) is that spiritual discernment and God given understanding of the person you have a word for are necessary in order for the word to truly reach the spirit. Some of your words were well spoken in regards to God waiting to receive JM. You words about her personal walk were not the best, to be honest. As a walk with God and Christ is a personal and individual one, it is not up to any of us to question the walk (at any point) of another. This is not a message trying to silence you at all (as I respect a majority of your contributions here). But your comments were very offensive. Given your word choice and your liberal use of the word IF, you indirectly projected your doubt as to whether she was a TRUE Christian or not during her time as a believer in Christ.
If my words of advice are of any use, I'd advise you to stay within sharing the gospel and the bible and stay from the personal statements regarding the walk of another.Your points are well taken, Deepes Mind, and I thank you. In all sincerity I was using the word IF to indicate that I believed either was possible (either she was in fact a believer or she was not), as I have no revelation on whether a person can lose salvation or not (whether it's just semantics, etc. when people debate this).
Anyway, I only saw the post where she asked me to stop AFTER SirDent so suggested it and so I went looking for it (I had only seen her other post until that point), and I am dropping it.
Thank you again.
"Whoever heeds life-giving correction will be at home among the wise." Proverbs 15:31As far as losing salvation is concerned, I have always heard that you never lose your salvation as it was given when Christ gave his life and as such God does not take it back. Of course there are scriptures in the bible (such as John 3:16) that state that salvation is solely limited to those who believe in the death, burial, and resurrection. But it has been discussed that when Christ died, he asked for forgiveness of ALL. He never said "all who believe". With that being said, I do believe that salvation is freely given, but one must accept it. We were given the free will to choose (both here on earth as well as when we meet him face to face) if we will accept or not. I also think that ultimately since we have all made mistakes (or sinned), that God will look over the full course of our lives to determine who he accepts and who he does not. But ultimately, it is up to GOD, not MAN. This is why Matthew 7:1-5 is so important. It has been said that God speaks and deals with each person on an individual level as our relationship with him is a personal one. We cannot question the relationship that another person has with him. As your walk is your walk with God, so is the walk of another.
Deepes Mind - While I've struggled over a few verses and the testimony of some who say they were once but no longer are believers, it seems no one can lose true salvation, as we are "sealed" in Christ by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:14), as he sets his seal of ownership on us (2 Corinthians 1:22), as he foreknew those who are his (Romans 8:29), and as Jesus said in John 6:39, "And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day." If a true believer has fallen away, then God would seek him. "If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off?" (Matthew 18:12) A key word in Matthew 18:12 seems to be "owns". So perhaps the security-of-salvation debate is more about semantics?
I agree with you that "salvation is freely given, but one must accept it". However, I can't find any scripture that suggests our choice to accept or not is "both here on earth as well as when we meet him face to face", as you say. It's a much more urgent matter that someone make the choice to believe while here on earth if they will not be given that opportunity again after death and upon meeting him face to face.
You say, "I also think that ultimately since we have all made mistakes (or sinned), that God will look over the full course of our lives to determine who he accepts and who he does not." But God isn't accepting us based on our record, but rather based on our acceptance of his gift of salvation through Jesus Christ. He will look to see if our names are written in the "Lamb's Book of Life" as spoken of in Revelation (rather than looking over the full course of our lives) when it comes to his "acceptance" of us. God does consider believers' works in rewarding them (labeled as crowns in the word), but not when it comes to "acceptance" or salvation. Now for the judgment of unbelievers who will face the "White Throne Judgment", he will look over the full course of their lives to see both the good and bad (since they are not covered by the blood of Jesus and declared righteous thereby), and from the way the unbelievers have lived their lives, he will determine their judgment.
God does speak to us both collectively in his word and, as you say, on an individual level (which would be through the Spirit).
I have not made an actual judgment of your friend's salvation (I do not say whether Jesus is her Savior or not), but I have expressed my concerns about the authenticity of one who continually attacks Christianity, the brethren, the word and so on, and continually aligns herself with unbelievers who (more understandably) attack the things of God. It was not as though I were uninvolved and looking to come against her, but rather she forced the issue by continually attacking me and others and the faith itself. You do not seem to mind her words against us, only our confrontations of her. You do not seem to mind her judgments either. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and say perhaps it is simply loyalty to a friend, and loyalty is a desirable quality.
We all make many mistakes and we all sin in many, many ways. It is good to be swift to forgive. And 7:1-5 are beautiful verses warning us about judging. But we are also cautioned in the word to examine and discern false teaching and false professing of Jesus Christ the Lord. We are further instructed "Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but rather expose them" (Ephesians 5:11).
You had no hesitation in confronting me and calling me out, and I thanked you for the rebuke. Why do you resent me confronting her and calling her out, when if she is in truth our sister, she might also be thankful for a rebuke?
Peace be unto you, brother Deepes Mind.It appears that we are on the same page (though with slight variations). I do have to point out specific point you made. You stated that there is more of an urgency in someone becoming a believer here on earth if they are not given that opportunity after death. I have heard a lot of our brothers and sisters in Christ make that statement a lot (which is Pascal's wager by the way and is a tool of evangelism that is not as effective as people think it is. I wrote a hub about it). The concern that I have with this particular statement is that this idea implies that God's grace and mercy is only extended to us and is only limited to our time here on earth as long as we are alive. The concern here is that we believe God to be all powerful, knowing, etc... and the Word says that his grace and mercy endures forever. I would think that forever could also mean after death. I also would point out that the Bible even stated that not all who cry out Lord will enter into heaven. So even if someone is true (so to speak) in their belief and their faith and the works that they do in His name, there is still the possibility that those will not be sufficient. But God's grace is. Ultimately, the final word on that is God's.
Loyalty really has nothing to do with anything here in this conversation. It is a matter of having an understanding and knowledge of my friends that others do not have. In another thread as well as earlier in this thread, I made a request that my name not be brought up in certain discussions with certain individuals. In light of that as well as my friend's earlier request to be left out of some things, I will not be discussing my friends other than to say that my friends and I do not agree on everything. In fact there are times where we hardly agree on anything. But the mark of our friendship is the respect that we have of our differences as well as the understanding that our religious beliefs (or lack thereof) are only one aspect of who we are and we have other interests that bind us. I understand that you can only go by what you see here on the forums, but I assure you that you do not see everything that is discussed outside of the forums (including whether or not one of us is about to go too far).. That's the last thing I will say of any of my friends here.
Now, Moving in a more general direction, disagreement with certain things do not constitute an attack. It appears that you have more of an issue with the way people may disagree (Which I will address later in this post.)
As a Christian, I do also have questions that I ask God regarding some of the things that happened in the bible. This does not shake my faith in him, but it doesn't mean that one cannot question it or have any concerns. It also does not mean that one cannot have an opinion as to how he/she feels about what occurred in the bible (especially given what we know and believe of God). With that being said, I agree that there are some bad things that happened in the bible (from my limited perspective). It is easy to say that everything God does is righteous and in his judgment he is just in everything that he does because he is God, but that does not mean that it doesn't appear harsh. I also agree that a lot of people throughout history have done bad things in the name of God. It is very easy to say that those people that did those things were not true Christians or that they were deceived by satan, etc.., but in my opinion, that is a measure of avoidance of the possible truth. As I mentioned before, we cannot judge who is and who is not a Christian (even when examining their fruits). A majority of these people pulled their beliefs directly from the same Bible that you and I read and as such are able to justify their behaviors. Westboro Baptist Church comes to my immediate mind of a more contemporary example. They and others sprinkle enough examples of some of Christ's teachings into their messages of hate to make it seem relevant and valid to others (especially of a like mind). Denouncing the actions of a person or a group is not the same as attacking or questioning a faith. It is showing them how a specific action may appear to go against the message of Christ and his love. The biggest issue that we face in the Christian community is that more often than not, instead of saying "Hey, your actions aren't lining up with what Christ taught, let me show you scripture examples of what I mean", some Christians (and others) say "Hey, your actions aren't lining up with the bible speaks of Christ's love, so YOU'RE NOT A TRUE CHRISTIAN". The first statement is speaking to trying to correct a behavior. The second statement is questioning and attacking the faith of another person as well as passing judgment. The verse you referenced in Ephesians speaks of calling out and exposing the actions (deeds) of a person. It does not say anything of calling them out on their faith. There is a difference between a rebuke of an action and an attack of a faith (especially if you share the same faith as another)
I will answer your second question first. Who said that I resented you for your comments? My initial statement of how your statement was wrong was not a call out, nor was it a confrontation. Because of my word choice, you incorrectly perceived it as such (again will explain shortly). My initial statement of your comments being wrong was made because I recognize that you did not truly understand the true impact of your words. In order to truly understand, you would have to know the story and understand the one you directed those words to (which of course the only person that can tell you that story would be the person you addressed). I only elaborated a little further because you asked me a legitimate question regarding your response, so I clarified some of my thoughts about it. There is a statement I like to use: "In communication, seek to understand before seeking to be understood". If we do not truly understand the person whom we are addressing, we run the risk of making comments in our lack of understanding that can damage relationships as well as future communication. So I wasn't rebuking you at all nor speaking out of resentment. I was reaching out and basically explaining that your words may not have been the best because (and see, I'm guilty as well), they appeared to be questioning and judgmental of whether or not someone actually believed (which I previously discussed). So to address your initial comment, I did not confront you. I was not angry in my message or anything else negative. I was pointing out that your comments were off base due to a lack of understanding, and as such offensive.
Now to my other message of something that I noticed. Three different Christians made a comment regarding your comments. I noticed that with one Christian, you Thanked and expressed a lot of respect for. With another Christian, you thanked, but questioned them about their comments. With the third, you outright accused of continually attacking you and the faith. If you look at all three messages, each of the three Christians basically delivered the same message to you, which was that your comment may not have been the best one to make, yet you had three different reactions. Why is that? Why Show complete unquestioning appreciation for one person, yet question the other two delivering the same message? Is it because of the presentation of the message? If yes, then keep in mind that this same idea applies in how we present the word of God to others. It may be the same word, but the presentation makes a difference as well. It's like an egg. Some like it hard boiled and given as closest to it's original form as possible, Some like it scrambled to that it can be incorporated into other things. Some like it fried and pressed down maybe with some things running over. Some preparations are not for everyone.. Just a thought
And unto you, sister CatWe are in agreement on the central message of the cross, Deepes Mind, and that is what makes you my brother and I your sister. You are very intelligent and have been gifted, and you possess patience and gentleness.
You wrote to me, "disagreement with certain things do not constitute an attack. It appears that you have more of an issue with the way people may disagree." What I have considered personal attacks (which are by the same handful of people repeatedly) are such things as name calling (e.g., You're a liar); false accusations (e.g., "You said you were the only one without sin"); the manipulation and intentional twisting of my words (e.g., you said it's okay to sin; you encouraged people to kill their children so they wouldn't suffer; you encouraged people to perform exorcisms and kill their children), and so on. This is slanderous. What I consider attacks on the faith are such things as continually standing in opposition to the brethren, as well as blaming the word, Christianity, and Christians for various evils. Even if someone perverts the word of God to "justify" their perverse actions, this is seen clearly as the work of the one who perverts and deceives. How in truth can the Way, who is the word in the flesh and Jesus Christ himself, or his bride be responsible for the wicked acts of darkness committed by those who profess to be children of the light but in truth do not belong to the light at all but rather belong to the "family" of the very accusers from the dark world that oppose the one true God in every deceptive manner possible?
I maintain that Hitler was NOT a Christian based on 1) his fruit (torture and murder) that I see COULD NOT come from the Spirit (of which the fruit is love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, and self control), 2) the easily discerned twisting of God's word by him when we read Hitler's words, and 3) the role he played as enemy to God's own firstborn children, the Jews. I have otherwise pointed out that those who profess to be of the light but carry out the evil desires and actions of darkness are not truly of the light, but I have not made definitive judgment about the salvation of specific others who claim belief. I have not made a conclusion about Melissa, but have pointed out both the impression she is giving and the harm she is doing to the faith. That being said, I do not call her sister because I simply don't know...
Which leads to a question you asked me. Without having yet seen the post where I was asked by the person herself to stop (which I hope itself would have stopped me), I was so advised by Sir Dent, you and Melissa, at least two of whom were aware of matters I was not aware of. You wrote, "I noticed that with one Christian, you thanked and expressed a lot of respect for. With another Christian, you thanked, but questioned them about their comments. With the third, you outright accused of continually attacking you and the faith. If you look at all three messages, each of the three Christians basically delivered the same message to you, which was that your comment may not have been the best one to make, yet you had three different reactions. Why is that?"
This morning God led me to this verse, which then comes to mind immediately upon seeing your question and easily sums it up - "The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets" (1 Corinthians 14:32; Some translations it reads more as subject to the control of prophets collectively and others read that the prophet himself should control his spirit). Recognizing Sir Dent as a man of God and a prophet, I heeded his words. Recognizing you as a brother, but not really knowing much about you due to very limited exposure and also sensing what I perceived as your loyalty to the one I see as a troublemaker, I took your words also, but with more limited embracement. And not even sure that Melissa is truly my sister (though not sure that she is not either), but either way recognizing that she is not a prophet, I was not as moved by her words (even when they contained some truth). This was due not only to the expected natural reason of my general expectation of negativity coming from her at this point (as she has not spoken one kind word to me, but has spewed out many, many unkind words), but even more so due to her overwhelmingly misled words spiritually speaking and her attacks within the majority of her interactions regarding matters of the faith, both with me and with many other Spirit-led Christians. In fact, her post in this situation was in my mind the LEAST offensive post I've received from her, if for no other reason than that I for once thought she spoke some truth and I was more offended at myself than at her this time.
You say you were not really giving a rebuke, but even if it were, you were preventing me from acting more unwisely, and it was well received. I further rebuke myself and have determined that 1) I need to more often consult with the Spirit and wait to be led before too hastily replying (I have not been on these forums long, and I am seeing what "dangerous" ground they can be spiritually speaking), and 2) even in situations that would be far different, if a person and I have had previously negative interactions with each other, then I am NOT the one to communicate God's love to them, and regardless of the love I in truth feel for them, I will leave such communication to those they may receive the love from.
Many blessings to you, brother Deepes Mind.
I suspect you are not being completely honest. Are you lying for Jesus?
Aww thanks Cat
And Thanks Sir Dent. Both of you keep up the good work!! Hi skye2day I said great post and it was. Did you go to Bible College
? Thankslol. Nicest thing I've heard all day. Thanks a lot.
Welcome back Bro.
Going to try and show the difference between a test and a temptation while I am here.
A test is something you pass. Like in school, when you pass the test, you move on ahead. If you fail the test, it must be taken again.
A temptation is the idea or nudge top do something that is wrong. IE a man lusts after a woman that he shouldn't be lusting after. The temptation itself is not wrong but if the man acts upon it, it is sin. Even Jesus was tempted but remained sinless.God does not tempt man.God allows things to happen. It is in pain we grow and He draws us to Him. GOD is love. He is Almighty God, Heavenly Father. Would a loving father tell his daughter it is ok to drink and drive because she is not that loaded? No he would not. He would take her keys. Our sin gets us in trouble. The devil is the tempter. He is THE father of lies. He is the enemy of our souls. Do you get it he hates all of mankind. He hates Gods creation. He wants all to go to the pits of hell with him.He is doomed and defeated. He will be gone in Hell one day forever. It is written. Revelation 20. He tells us it is OK to drink and drive. He tells us it is OK to rebel. He tells us God is evil and dishes out destruction. Man dishes out their destruction. Satan temps us. He wants to devour man. He knows scripture. He was one of the highest of angels. He wanted to be above God. He and one third of his followers were thrown from heaven.
None not one is righteous. That is why Jesus came to save us from our sin. John 3:16. His blood has atoned for our sin. Jesus came so we could have life and have it more abundantly. John 10:10. Jesus came to save us from sin. John 3:16. A choice we must make in this lifetime. Whom will we follow? No sin is unforgivable. We need to acknowledge we are sinners and need Jesus. He will change our hearts and redeem us. He is God. nothing is impossible with God. In Christ Jesus. Skye
The enemy of our souls is the tempter, the adversary, the father of lies, the enemy, the devil, Satan. . He comes ONLY to steal, kill and destroy. John 10:10 The devil hates all people. He hates man. He wants all man to perish. He hates that God created man! He wanted to be God.
Jesus came so we could have life and have it more abundantly. John 10:10 The good news is Jesus has already defeated the devil. The devil knows his doom.I wanna offer you some tips I think might make the forum easier for you to navigate.
First, on the top right of your screen it says "threaded" and "chronological". Click on "chronological".
Second, when you just want to make a posting, to no one in particular, click on "post a reply" on the bottom right of the box.
Third, if you want to reply to a specific poster, click "Reply" on the left of the box under their post. Then the post will be directly in response to their post.
I hope that helps.Thank you precious woman. got it. I need to be off of here. I been online to long today. Hugs. Skye
You helped me as well, Beth! I've been under "threaded", and couldn't understand why it didn't always have a "reply" option yet others could reply in the correct place. So when someone was telling me to reply to the speaker, I was thinking "Well, I don't see that option". I'm admittedly technologically challenged. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one, skye2day. Still catching on here, I guess.
I see, JMcFarland, that you are attempting to set a trap for my sister Beth. Here is your answer:
James 1:13 "When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed."
But wait, doesn't it say in Scripture that God "tempted" the Israelites (Exodus 15)? No, actually it doesn't - this is an inaccurate translation of the original text in certain bibles, and demonstrates why we have to be very careful in studying scripture. Every time it says in God's word that “God tempted them”, the actual, literal translation of the Hebrew word is not tempt but “test.” According to the original language, it should in fact say God "tested" them. Testing for obedience, faith, etc. is a far different thing than tempting us to sin!I don't think that you're in a position to judge my intentions or the meaning behind them. I'm asking Beth a question, and I'm not sure that it's fair to assume that she will need assistance.
Were you not setting a trap?
I had confidence that Beth could answer the question, as she is a Spirit-led believer. I didn't know if she specifically knew that the word "tempt" is accurately translated from the Hebrew as "test" or not. Her answer was beautiful.See, it's that mentality that is the problem. No one hates anyone, no one is out to trap anyone. No one is being persecuted.
You have to admit, there's a lot of crazy stuff said on these threads.
Not really, there's just a lot of people taking things personally that aren't personal... therefore a lot of butthurtedness that's unnecessary.
I've read the same threads you have. It's always the same ppl getting bashed that say there's a bit of persecution here. And it's always the same ppl doing the bashing saying they're delusional. You can't spin it. It's just fact and we all know it coming into it, but that doesn't mean ppl don't have a right to say it's not right.
I get insulted all the time... generally from the same people who say THEY are being persecuted. I've never felt "persecuted" I've never seen anyone called delusional that I can remember.
Like I said, people taking stuff personal. I think it might be you trying to spin things... because well, I explained the because in my last post.And with you being biased.
Seems that's how it generally works.So you being right wasn't enough? You like the last word, take that too. I will remain silent on the matter from here on out.
Yes, you were indeed telling me I was right rather than being snarky and sarcastic. Is that halo heavy? Oh, I forgot, I'm getting the last word... except you posting another snarky response saying that I was getting the last word.
I feel so persecuted.
What is there to trap if the bible is everything you say it is?
How long have you read Hebrew?It seems you THOUGHT you had a way to trap her because you thought the word contradicted itself, saying in one place that God tempts no one to sin, and speaking in other places of what you interpreted as tempting, or what you read as "tempt", though the actual original word was "test". But testing and tempting are very different things. A test is designed to see if someone will make the right decision; in the case of tempting, someone is trying to entice the person to sin. God does test, but it is the devil who tempts.
you have no idea what I'm thinking, and - once again - you're in no position to speak for me or judge my intentions. I asked a question. That's it. Maybe the reason you see hatred, suffering and persecution in everything that contains nothing of the sort is because you think you're some kind of magical mind reader who knows complete strangers intentions without bothering to clarify. I'm pretty sure that kind of behavior is frowned upon.
Chris Neil, Gods mercies are new each day. Mercy is not getting what we do deserve. Grace is the free and unmerited favor of God getting what we do not deserve. But for the grace of God my life was spared. God saved me from a self centered life style that only led to destruction. He pulled me from the mud pit He saved and redeemed me. All Praise to GOD. He is awesome love.
Chris keep standing for God and sharing the truth. Phil 4:13.
Romans 10: 4 "Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes."
Acts 13:39 "Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses."
Romans 3:22 "This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe."
Galatians 3:24 "So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith."
Galatians 4:4-5 “When the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.”Your words mean a lot more that quotations from writers 2 millenia ago that were more concerned about making a bible to control the masses than spiritual matters.
Try thinking rather than quoting nearly sense free sentences.Where did you learn what you know about your line of work? Or about government?
Did you read it and form an opinion on its correctness or did you just make it up on your own?My sincere apologies, Wilderness. I will here say very little because, while I have been freely speaking with others, I sensed I was to respond to you only with Scripture (Every time I'd go to write something to you other than Scripture, it seemed the Spirit was saying, "No, leave it at the Scripture"). I know that makes me sound nutty, hasn't happened before and has actually been quite frustrating. But until I'm given a word that I can communicate with you in any way other than giving you Scripture, that's what I'll limit myself to beyond this explanation of my posts to you. Take care, Wilderness.
There is no spirit talking to you, it's your own mind and the reason why your own mind is telling you to only use scripture with wilderness is because you recognize his intelligence which makes you afraid of his intelligence tripping up your own thoughts.
In saying I'm responding only with Scripture because I was intimidated by Wilderness' intelligence, then aren't you here insulting every other unbeliever who I would then perceive as "dumb" enough to speak freely with? No, there are many intelligent unbelievers, including some of those in these forums.
I personally take no offence. Wilderness is a very smart cookie, nice diversion but why is it you only respond to him with scripture? Come now, tell the truth for Jesus.
Intelligent people are the ones I most ENJOY my discussions with (whether they agree or disagree with me), and I was actually frustrated at the increasing sense that I was to give nothing but Scripture to Wilderness, as there was much I wanted to say to him. But it didn't change. I think there may be a very significant reason in the spiritual realm. It's all above and beyond me; I've been given no revelation on it and don't want to put in my own interpretation of it (especially since the two possible reasons I have in mind are as far in either direction as they can go).
Stop it! You two, blathering your nonsense, are embarrassing me, and that's hard to do.
Somehow I missed these replies; my apologies.
There really isn't much reason to spout biblical quotations to me; outside of a few purely historical verses nearly everything needs interpretation, and quoting the verse does NOT say anything about what you mean to say. As a result, I seldom even read them - they are, at best, a poor indication of what is going on in your mind.
So sure - we can part pleasantly and when you decide to use your own words, plainly giving YOUR thoughts and meanings, come on back.
That kind of sounds alot like a conspiracy theory. I like conspiracy theories
Do you have anything to support your claim?
Um, no. You misread scripture there. Big time.
As much as it pains me to read such as this, I do understand the need for structure. The need to be told what to think. The insecurity which leads people to these lines of thought.
I don't begrudge you your needs. I wish you enlightenment.There was no self loathing in her statement, nor was it anti biblical. There was an order placed by God as well as instruction to respect and love one another as Christ loves us. You are confusing Edith Bunker with Eve.
There is, imo, a display of need. A need to be told how to act. That's why we have to sift through all of these ridiculous posts of scripture. But, it's mouthing words with no true understanding of the reasons behind the words. Everyone, at some point in their lives, goes through the motions they think are expected; without understanding why. They seek to please. But, arguing in defense of what is truly indefensible couldn't please anyone on earth. Much less a god.
And, there may be no self loathing but there is a great deal of insecurity involved in arguing in defense of beliefs that are not supported by fact. And, laziness. Simply wanting to believe isn't justification for belief.
Please don't fall back on the love as Christ loved us line. I don't find a modicum of love in the posts of those brandishing virtual Bibles and crying persecution anytime someone disagrees. Heck. My last post here was followed by a Christian posting some scripture about people sneaking into the ranks of the faithful only looking to deceive. I assume his comment was directed at me.Im not gonna fall back on any lines, you're just interpreting it the way it appears to you. That's the norm, right? To look at something and assume that's the way it is? I'm not offering insult when I say you're perspective is a common misconception. The Bible has to be read in whole. For God to be understood, He must be understood in whole. Those of us who love Him with our whole heart will not, even by death, fully comprehend Him, but we do know what is in His nature and not in His nature.
Beth. Do you think only those who agree with you have read the Bible? I doubt there is a person who enters these discussions who hasn't read the Bible. Do you think the tens of thousands of sects that have branched out did so because they didn't read the Bible?
I've read the Bible. I disagree with 90% of what most of the evangelical posters here have to say on the topic. What does that mean?
Anyway. The only reason i made the comment on not using the love as Jesus loved line was because you did use the line and i consider it inappropriate. Considering some of the comments made toward others. Not by you, but the person you are attempting to defend.Im defending the faith... the word of God, I just think you misunderstood it.
And I'm glad to know you have read it in whole. From what I know of you, that shouldn't surprise me at all.You do realize the person you are defending is now claiming God is speaking to them directly? Does that bother you, in the least?
lol. It doesn't. God has spoken to His ppl for generations. In the OT He spoke thru burning bushes, in the NT He spoke to Paul on the road to Damascus... He talks to those who will listen thru His spirit today. It's not hocus-pocus type stuff, it's an impression one feels usually. Some may actually hear from God, some may just think they have, but it's not for me to question, that's between them and God.... same as for those who say they are saved. That's between them and God, I can't see their hearts.
You guys do scare me at times. My mother was a devout believer and lived at the foot of the cross. Her whole life. She never made that claim. I might have believed it from her.
No insult taken. I get it and Im sure I would have loved to have met your mom. If she loved God as you say, I'm sure she heard from Him all the time. I don't mean it the way it sounds... all spooky and weird... I wrote a hub on it called I've Heard the Voice of God. I wrote it for Radman when I first joined a year ago when he had the same question for me.
Sorry, you're wrong. I haven't read your hub but i know you are wrong. I'm sure my mother would have mentioned hearing from God.
True faith doesn't need to hear, anyway. Full understanding doesn't need validation.I get the sense your mother was a true Christian, Emile R, but not everyone speaks of "hearing" from God because it isn't generally an audible voice but a spiritual voice.
Also people have different gifts and God has different plans for different people. Those with the spiritual gifts of prophecy and wisdom (which I can tell you right now I have, Beth has, skye2day has, SirDent has, etc., etc.) will be given greater sensitivity to the Spirit's voice as a necessary part of their specific gift. Other Spirit-filled Christians possess other gifts that are equally valuable. In fact, the gift of compassion or love is the greatest "gift" (see 1 Corinthians 12:31-13:13). If your mother possessed this gift of love, then her gift surpassed any others!
God's Spirit is not silent, but he continually guides and directs his children (He's put himself inside us for a reason, after all). Now I did question if this sense was truly coming from the Spirit and thought perhaps I would not sense it the next time I went to write a reply to Wilderness, and yet each time the sense was stronger and stronger so that I dared not defy it.
I understand, Emile R, that you dislike my posts on women and men, though in the end they are very uplifting to women. But what specifically is this statement regarding me about: "Considering some of the comments made toward others. Not by you, but the person you are attempting to defend"?
What are these comments you're referring to? Did you think I should not have confronted the "test" given by one (though you don't mind her confronting me on all manner of things)? Did you think I should not have confronted those who have intentionally twisted my words (though you don't mind them twisting my words)? Should I not have revealed the words of one speaking against Christianity, who comes against EVERY Spirit-led Christian on these forums (though you do not mind her words against me or Christianity in general)?
Or is it simply that you don't like Scripture and I rely on Scripture?None of it really matters. You do what you enjoy doing and they do what they enjoy doing. found the comment I originally replied to over the top. But, let's be realistic. Most of the comments here are. When you go toe to toe on cosmic questions everyone is bound to talk out their a##.
I read through the comments from last night. Everyone from both sides attempt to insist those they agree with are either more intelligent, better educated, more cosmically tuned in or generally have a better bead on the topic. The claims border on the ludicrous.
Ego appears to rule. I'm not inclined to preen anyone's feathers, or ruffle them. None of you are inclined to listen to each other. What could I possibly think made me special? What purpose would continued conversation serve?
My nature or "needs" were actually the opposite - I don't just take anyone's word for things, but constantly question, challenge and so on. In fact, my tendency in the natural is to border on oppositional. But belief is not an option for me, since my Lord has already revealed himself to me. Therefore I discipline myself to bring my will into accord with his; to align my beliefs with His Spirit inspired word. And while I was at first offended (yes, by the God I love), he has since revealed to me "great and unsearchable things" that I didn't know and that have showed me that there never was any reason for offense, but that in Christ all are one, and that greater things have been reserved for those at first considered the lesser, and that he makes all things beautiful in his time.
- SirDentposted 11 years ago0
Joshua 1:9 Have not I commanded thee? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed: for the LORD thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest.
- SirDentposted 11 years ago0
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. Totally unrelated, here is what I do for fun. First public performance for the band, so it starts rough but it comes together at the end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ml6tYR7 … e=youtu.beYou guys sound great. Love the blues. (Don't be upset if I say you gotta getcha a new lead singer... maybe it was just nerves, but he wasn't on key.) Other than that, it was a good sound.
Edit, oh you're right.. he gets on board toward the middle.Cool, I'll assume you were the drummer and not the singer.
He's actually a good singer, he just had a bad case of nerves.
Yeah, I'm the drummer.
Nice.
You know, you're kinda cute...for a Christian.I'm a mean ugly hairy mountain bear, and everyone around here has heard me growl so don't you forget it!
I beg to differ.
Bears can be very huggable!bears are snuggly. You're a Panda bear. How cute.
- SirDentposted 11 years ago0
There comes a time when enough is enough. JMcFarland asked Cat to stop. It is in the best interest of the whole thread if Cat did stop addressing her, besides being respectful of her wishes.
The Gospel of Christ is not forced upon anyone. It is up to the individual to decide whether to follow or not. If they don't that is their business, If they do that is also their business.
In the Bible, not all who met Jesus accepted Him. To be honest, only a few actually did. Many are called but few are chosen.Thank you Dent. Sincerely and from the bottom of my heart.
+1
As always, Sir Dent, you have good timing with a needed message.I have seen her post where she asked me to stop, and I will honor it. I also appreciate you as a man of God, Sir Dent. God bless you!
May God's will be done.
- SirDentposted 11 years ago0
Psa_119:105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
- SirDentposted 11 years ago0
Psa 4:8 I will both lay me down in peace, and sleep: for thou, LORD, only makest me dwell in safety.
Good night everyone. May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. My sincere apologies to any and everyone I upset or offend. May God bless you!
- SirDentposted 11 years ago0
Psalms 4:3 But know that the LORD hath set apart him that is godly for himself: the LORD will hear when I call unto him.
Psalms 4:4 Stand in awe, and sin not: commune with your own heart upon your bed, and be still. Selah. - Motown2Chitownposted 11 years ago0
Reading through these forum threads, I often feel that the biggest issue is whether we are engaged in conversation or debate. In conversation, it seems to me, people engage in the exchange of thoughts and ideas with no purpose but to enjoy each other's company and understand each other. In debate, the goal is to persuade one party or another to see things "our way" based on whatever evidence we present about a chosen subject. In conversation, and discussion, IMO, there is no reason we can't disagree, criticize ideas, and step away, still without animosity. In debate, the imperative is to persuade. So, the question, it seems, is are we having a conversation, where we pack up at day's end respecting each other's right to disagree, even though we may not respect the ideas, beliefs, or opinions of the other, or are we continuing a debate whose only purpose is to persuade, and therefore must continue until we reach that objective? I know that in my experience, I have encountered both mind sets, but conversation is generally enjoyable and never pointless. Debate can be exhausting and make one want to walk on hot coals as an alternative to participation. Also, if debate is the road down which we choose to walk, then our personal histories and personalities need not ever be brought into the equation. Conversation allows for that, IMO.
Maybe we just all need to come in certain of what it is we're coming into. We might avoid a lot of ruffled feathers and hurt feelings that way. I personally dislike debate and generally choose not to engage, but I love conversation. I try to determine a thread's current tone before diving in.At the risk of pissing off EVERYONE (which is really not fun) I don't feel like most of the time we engage in either conversation or debate. Debate is, yes, about persuading based on evidence presented but there are rules and structures about rebuttal and presentation, even in informal settings. So often, and (as I've said often) I see this on both sides, there is one blanket statement, usually without any backing evidence or logic, and then a continued denigration of the other side for refusing to simply capitulate to that statement.
IMO.It's true. Sadly, if one isn't prepared to debate, they shouldn't. If, in an effort to persuade, one can't present proper evidence, then they should really acknowledge that opinions, beliefs, and ideas are what they are, instead of throwing tantrums (and for a bunch of adults, we sure throw a lot of them here) and insisting that they're evidence. If you can't debate but want to converse or discuss, just do it, but be honest about what you're doing. I see people with a debate mind set being getting annoyed NOT because they're jerks, but because we aren't honest with them or ourselves about what we're presenting. For example, the minute we start presenting ideas, beliefs, or opinions, we need to acknowledge that. We should stop and examine ourselves at that point rather than getting pissed when someone else does it.
I'll concede that point
.
Which is another point. No one ever concedes points here either. It's like if they say "Well, you're right there." that their entire argument and everything they ever thought/believed is wrong. Which is not helped by the assumption of the other party (which thinks exactly the same way) that conceding one point really does invalidate everything that the admitting ever thought/believed.
(If you can follow that, low coffee levels)Hey! That's big enough to share; may I have some?
Of course. I think all posters here can have their fair share.
Can my share have whiskey in it after last night?
Of course.
Just no driving after, please.I'm Irish, Chris, if my last name wasn't a clear indicator. We are required by blood to appreciate whiskey.
So if someone Irish doesn't appreciate whiskey, does that mean they're not Irish?
They're not TRUE Irish. Whiskey is our fruit.
Aha! So I'm Scottish and you're Irish, and now there is also a "No True Irishman" argument!
Ohhhh.. I get it. You don't like this so you don't belong anymore. .. got it
Actually that's really a Scottish thing rather than an Irish thing. The Irish will allow anyone in until they screw up, while the Scottish let no one in that isn't one of them. I know as my family is from Scottish Cape Breton and while I was born there they don't consider me one of them and will not hesitate to let me know. Rather important distinction.
I want you to know, I totally support you in your discussion... you have every right to chat... I'm just saying, ('cause I've never pointed it out to you before) you go off topic too.
You see Beth I'm on the topic that everyone else is discussing. It's not like I'm asking other what their favourite colour is.
Although now that you bring that up, mine is green.
So my birthday presents can be planned accordingly...
I want you to know, I totally support your bringing petty arguments from thread to thread. I am a big fan of the "Beth Show" and really want to see it in every thread I read. I was wondering if you could call me at home every 10 minutes to discuss how offended you are, maybe come and speak about it at my woman's club meeting? Is there anyway we can sign up for regular text messages about it?
And now, the Melissa show is preempting the Beth show. Back to our regularly scheduled discussion after that.
After, of course, the regular Emilie commercial break. The one where you know she is selling something, but you aren't quite certain what it is, don't want it, and wonder who the hell would.
Up next, Emile. We can all thank Beth once again for changing the discussion. She reminds me of my dearly missed mother in-law who would always walk into a room talking with no regard for the current conversation.
Did she follow people through every f****** room in the house doing it too?
lol... it's so hard not to defend myself... it would be so easy to lash out and speak the truth all in one, but it's not what Christ would want is it? He humbly accepted death, even death on a cross for the love of others. So who am I to be offended? I am nothing. So I'll let it go. It's nothing.
Ohhh. Then comes rad man. Then back to Melissa and Beth. Now me. How long do you think the round robin will run?
It just takes one comment or one question to be off topic. Someone has to make it. It only seems to be an issue when I do it, but if you don't want to admit to that, I can live with it. I just wanted to point it out.
What you have to understand is that your drama is not so much fun as is hers. To her, that is.
But no one's is as fun as yours... It's so fun that you have to flip-flop opinions so you can create it equally so no one feels left out. That's mighty nice of you.
Nice is my middle name!
Unfortunately for you, I don't flip flop opinions. I simply believe in equality and fair play. Concepts you don't appear to grasp.Sure I do, I treat everyone the way they treat everyone else. If you don't like the way I'm treating you, then you probably need to think about that.
Seems super-duper fair to me, bffMatthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.I've never complained about the way you act toward me. Not in a long while. I just assume that's who you are. You can't help it.
Oh, don't be silly
It's a conscious choice. I'm actually a very sweet, kind, understanding person. Stop laughing, you wouldn't even recognize me outside of these forums... but, when in Rome...
The argument in Eric's thread going over into another thread. The argument in the cheating teenager thread coming into this one. There are more examples, I don't feel like going back and finding the threads... Lots with ED.
Can you confine the bickering to the actual thread that it started in please? The drama is easier to avoid if you keep it localized.And you figure it's me, eh? I'm the guilty party that causes it? We can go with that if you'd like. It doesn't really matter. You'd find another reason to spit fire if you couldn't use this as an excuse.
I didn't see mo bringing the fight to the other thread or rad bringing it to this one. That was all you.
And yes, I persecute you so
Thank you, Sir! Your generosity is appreciated!
If there is one blanket statement that may not be entirely accurate, it would be that religions cause good people to do bad things based on Michelle and Melissa. Other than that, the statement does indeed have a lot of evidence to support it.
So many believers here who purposely or ignorantly make false statements based on their beliefs. And even though the evidence is presented to show those statements are false, the believers either reject or ignore it, once again due to their religious beliefs.
How can anyone state that both sides are denigrating the discussions when that's obviously not true?When reality and the truth are staring you in the face, you just KNOW.
Yeah. Keep telling yourself that. That's how I knew.
- SirDentposted 11 years ago0
Proverbs 27:14 He that blesseth his friend with a loud voice, rising early in the morning, it shall be counted a curse to him.
- SirDentposted 11 years ago0
2Corinthians 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
Sir Dent, you happen to be the only one on topic. lol
You're a good guy, sir dent. Way to pull the conversation back on a direction in line with the thread name.
That's a great thing to tell poor people so that they don't revolt and take your money. They also tell poor people that money can't buy love.
- Elouise Lucasposted 11 years ago0
how do i remove myself from this thread. I am not interested in the two of you bickering back and forth
There are more than two of here, but you can simple go to the top right of this page and hit the unfollow button.
Hi, Eloise.
In the top right, you should see a green oval with a number. If you are following, it should read unfollow. Click and it will change to follow, indicating that you are no longer following the thread.
- SirDentposted 11 years ago0
Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
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