Yes, Christ paid for the sins of the whole human race, but?

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   SwordofManticorEposted 12 years ago

   The real question is, will Christ get everything He paid for?

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      Zelkiiroposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Supposedly all the world's sin was dumped on him during the blackout on the cross, so yeah. He got what he paid for.

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         SwordofManticorEposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         So what was He paid?

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            Zelkiiroposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            He sold his human life for the sins of the world. His human life was taken, and the sins of the world were given to him. Pretty simple transaction, and only slightly less painful than shopping at Target.

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               SwordofManticorEposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               I take it you dont take the question seriously. I hope I am wrong.

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               Rayne123posted 12 years agoin reply to this

               It sounds like you are mocking Gods existence and what he did for us.
               
               I believe that mocking God is a sin to the Lord

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                  SwordofManticorEposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Maybe you can answer the question?

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            SandCastlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Jesus didn't die to get paid something. He didn't do it for gain.  He died to save us. It was a free gift given out of pure love.

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               SwordofManticorEposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Of course He didn't die to get paid. How absured is that? It was He who PAID for the sins of the world. So will He get what He PAID for is the question.

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                  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  How absurd is that?

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                  SandCastlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  So your Question is, "Will Jesus get the souls he died for?". Jesus doesn't get the souls, God does. Of course God will get what Jesus paid for with his life (a life he gave willingly to save humankind). I agree with A Troubled Man-your question is a bit absurd.

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                     SwordofManticorEposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     No one gets souls. When the body dies, so does the soul. There is nothing absurd about my question, because if most of makind is doomed to go to hell, then Christ was ripped off.

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                        SandCastlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        That's your opinion that the soul dies. According to Christianity the soul does not die. No Christ was not ripped off. He would think it was worth it to save one soul, one lost sheep.

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                           A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           According to reality, souls have never been shown to exist. So, how does Christianity deal with reality?

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                              SandCastlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              Really, and how have souls been 'shown' not to exist?

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                                 A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 "souls have never been shown to exist"
                                 
                                 What you said is actually opposite to what I said? lol

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                                    Ericdierkerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    Wow what blindness! Are you really a devout empiricist. Did you not read all of Descartes and Marx and Hume and Locke? Your silliness was debunked in what they call the dark ages. What humor you bring us and a reminder that stupid includes smart people.
                                    A Troubled Man goes with the ignorance of your posts. But you are fun so please hang around and contribute.

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                                       A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                       I always get a giggle when a believer spouts something about being blind or can't see when it comes to their supernatural bunkum. It's like Harvey the Rabbit or the Great Gazoo, why can't anyone else see them?
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                       By that, are you asking if I understand facts and evidence? Yes.
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                       Descartes came to the conclusion that nothing can be perceived more easily and more evidently than ones own mind, Locke says we are all born with a blank slate, tabula rasa, before we perceive anything. With this in mind he rejects the concept of innate ideas and claims that all we know of the world is what we experience through our senses. Marx thinks religions are childish and rubbish, the opiate of the masses.
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                       That would have been a time when myths and superstitions ruled the planet and science was suppressed because of religion? Those dark ages?
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                       I'm so happy to have entertained you and also to have been the target of your personal insults.
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                       Absolutely.

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                                    SandCastlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    So you can't prove that they don't exist. You said that souls were 'shown' not to exist. How were they shown not to exist? Where is the proof besides you saying, "prove they do exist". There is no evidence that shows that souls do not exist, only opinions.

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                                       A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                       No, you nor anyone else can show they do exist.
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                       That is a lie. I never said that. If that all you're going to do is lie about what others say?

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                           SwordofManticorEposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           It ios not my opinion, it is written scripture. Christianity since the RCC, has messed up the plan of Christ. The world developes according to we Christians and our belief system, and for the last 2000 years, we have sure made a mess of things.
                           
                           Well if I were Christ and went through what He did to save all mankind and ended up only with a few instead of all, I would feel betrayed and ripped off.

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               SandCastlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               "Will Christ get everything He paid for?"....He already has everything. He sits at the right hand of God.

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      A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Crucifixions were free of charge.

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         Ericdierkerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Not true at all. Speak well or hold your tongue.

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            A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            It's true, the Romans did not charge Jesus a red cent for services rendered. He was even allowed to keep the cross as a parting gift.
            
            
            
            Okay Gandalf.

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               Ericdierkerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               There was a cost. Perhaps it is best you do not understand.

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                  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  What's so hard about understanding a myth?

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                     SandCastlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     So you were being sarcastic in the other post. You obviously do not believe in God and are trolling.

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                        A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        So, according to you, non-believers are trolls. How nice.

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                           SandCastlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           Trolls come in all sizes, shapes and have all sorts of beliefs.

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      aguasilverposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      John 6.
      
      32 Jesus then said to them, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, Moses did not give you the Bread from heaven [what Moses gave you was not the Bread from heaven], but it is My Father Who gives you the true heavenly Bread.
      33 For the Bread of God is He Who comes down out of heaven and gives life to the world.
      34 Then they said to Him, Lord, give us this bread always (all the time)!
      35 Jesus replied, I am the Bread of Life. He who comes to Me will never be hungry, and he who believes in and cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Me will never thirst any more (at any time).
      36 But [as] I told you, although you have seen Me, still you do not believe and trust and have faith.
      37 All whom My Father gives (entrusts) to Me will come to Me; and the one who comes to Me I will most certainly not cast out [I will never, no never, reject one of them who comes to Me].
      38 For I have come down from heaven not to do My own will and purpose but to do the will and purpose of Him Who sent Me.
      39 And this is the will of Him Who sent Me, that I should not lose any of all that He has given Me, but that I should give new life and raise [them all] up at the last day.
      40 For this is My Father’s will and His purpose, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in and cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day.

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         SwordofManticorEposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         What is your understanding of John 6?

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            aguasilverposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            It's a double edged sword, there are prepositions in the verse: none will be lost, but equally it states that we need to come to Him.
            
            The answer really rests upon WHO was given to Christ that could not be lost, was that ALL of humanity, in which case none could be lost, or was there a condition, that being coming to Christ and asking....??
            
            If there is a condition, and ONLY those who come to Christ cannot be lost, then what happens to those who refuse, neglect or ignore Gods divine exchange?
            
            What is the position of a human soul that will not accept eternity with God?
            
            God MUST provide a habitat suitable to that soul/spirit/person to reside in eternally after mortal death, and if the desire of the soul/spirit/person is to NOT spend eternity with God, where does God put them?

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               SwordofManticorEposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               John 12:32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw (drag) all men to Myself.
               
               John 3:35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.
               
               John 6:39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
               
               It is He who chooses us, not the other way around my friend.

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                  aguasilverposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Agreed, but what of those who refuse to be chosen?
                  
                  Do humans have a choice or not, I imagine our resident secularists would object to being forced to spend eternity with God after death, as much as they reject Him now, so what happens to those who reject Christ?

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                     SwordofManticorEposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
                     
                     Romans 3: 3What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?

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   Ericdierkerposted 12 years ago

   No He simply did not. There are too many out there that simply refuse to live up to the bargain. They take back their sins. I tell my 3 year old, "you will not be in trouble for throwing that rock at the house if you say you are sorry and will not do it again" He looks at me defiantly and says "NO", knowing full well the consequences.
   
   But let me finish that story, the only punishment he really can understand is my being upset. Perhaps that is enough. I hope it does not torture him.

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      SwordofManticorEposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      So Eric, have you never commited a sin more than once after you became a Christian?

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         Ericdierkerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Who you talking to -- Me? Of course. I am the worst kind of sinner because I know better. But my awesome friend will not give up on me. Sometimes he smacks me on the back of the head though.

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            SwordofManticorEposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Thats the thing Eric, our awsome friend will not give up on anyone. He will not lose one, and I know He will get everything He paid for Eric. That you can be grateful for as well.

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               Ericdierkerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Well that is our human condition. We think WE decide. We were discussing this about the sins of Peter(3xs) and the sin of Judas Escariot (1x) both did as God knew they would. Were both forgiven in equal measure? Doctrine says no, love says yes. Only John followed him to the Calvary yet all were blessed with the Holy Spirit. And what about that Thomas dude, how dare he doubt the Lord!? No matter what I do, God will do with me as he pleases. Not fatalism just faithism.

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                  SwordofManticorEposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Amen eric.

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      Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Have you ever wondered if we aren't approaching the question of sin from the wrong angle?  If he died for all sin, what we are doing is attempting to recreate the concept of sin as it applied prior to his appearance. Attempting to negate his action.
      
      He said love God and your neighbor as yourself and all law is fulfilled. I would think the only thing after this comment, that could remotely qualify as sin would be an action not completely brought about by universal love. Which no one can claim to do. All actions have a selfish motive somewhere. Which means we are all in the same boat, no matter faith or philosophy. I would think Christians were the worst sinners since they have more reason than any to understand and follow the words of Christ, but they choose instead to daily attempt to negate his words and actions.

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         Ericdierkerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Emile, I agree with you on the status of these sins. Love is the commandment. Doing or not doing other things is a life choice and simply a way to refer to something that is less than loving. For us now, that is truly the only definition of a sin. Something that deviates from love. So while we can say "I have sinned" we cannot say "you have sinned" --- how would we know the hearts of men?

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         SwordofManticorEposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Emily, from the bottom of my heart, I have to give you 2 thumbs up for your answer. What you said about Christians and sin is bang on. Most of us if not all have a selfish motive, but worst than that is that self-rightouse attitude in most of us, and that is far from Christ like.

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         Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         AGREE !!!!    When comments like this one is SOoo logical  ... some people can't grasp it,
         We should follow that trane of thought further and see where it leads.

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