We know the words and most know there is a good movie version that has John Wayne standing there in awe afterwords who said: "Surely this man was the Son of God!"
But I ask this question: Why did Jesus Christ say these words out loud?
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. .....
That is the question. But I add why did Christ also say these words out loud: "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"
Now notice my question is not why did He say such things, but why out loud? We all know that when Jesus spoke He taught. Here He seems to be teaching that even those who have not got a clue are forgiven. And here He seems to tell us that having doubts is normal in tough situations.
Being in mind-shattering agony may or may not have had something to do with it. Generally, when your nerve endings are tearing your psyche a new butthole, you'll find it pretty difficult to hear yourself think.
Try it at home! Stub your toe on a sharp corner and try to think about stuff without vocalizing it!
Yes, I hear you. Have you ever cussed in pain, to your self? I do not think so. But in your scenario I think he clearly would have said "Get me the hell out of here!!" Probably that would not explain forgiving the people who put you there. But clearly you have a good point.
You're right that He said things out loud for mankind's hearing, for our ultimate benefit.
He didn't have to go through the stuff he went through. He did it for us. He could've called legions of angels to carry Him away from the Cross and instantly stop His pain. Days before that, He could've stopped the entire process of being arrested and tried and scourged and etc. But He didn't. He made a choice, maybe a whole series of choices...........and how Blessed are we because He made the right choice!
When He said "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do", He was pointing out what they were doing! And He knew that after He resurrected, they'd look back and see the full impact of what they'd done. It also gave them (us) the example of forgiveness. He was letting people know that they can obtain forgiveness. He wasn't automatically forgiving them without the realization due from them of what they had done. That would come later, when (and if) they actually were sorry and repented.
When He said "My God, why hast thou forsaken me?", He was speaking from human pain, but with the example, once again, to show that He did go through pain and other suffering for our sakes.
Everything He did and said was for our sakes, for the ultimate sake of our souls. That was His purpose; what He was sent here for; what He was born into humanity for.
When we read the account of when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, we see the reasoning explained in direct words. The Bible literally says that He spoke what He spoke for our benefit.
Nicely said. And so you follow His teaching and "speak" here for all to hear. For our benefit. Thank you
Brenda what makes you think the forgiveness was not automatic? Jesus asked the Father to forgive them; did the Father answer the prayer or not? Did the Father say "err no son, I'm not going to do that unless they formally come and say a sinner's prayer?" At the raising of Lazarus Jesus thanked the Father for always hearing him, thus when Jesus asked the Father to forgive, the Father forgave unconditionally without first demanding repentance.
The bigger question to me is why he's cursing himself.
You know since he and God are the same entity.
It must be something to do with the doubt deal. Yea He is cursing Himself. And let me say this, if someone curses my child, they curse me also. Back in ancient history -- when I was a boy -- there were a lot of bloody lips because one guy called another Son of a Bitch.
I have to agree with the 1st answer from Brenda D,
But as for the 2nd question, I believe at that very moment our divine Father did abandon His son. At that very moment, all the sins of the world, past, present and future were with Christ. He who did not sin carried all the sins for all our sakes. I have been told many times from Christians that God cannot be with sin, maybe at that time just before Christ's death, He abanded His Son for that very reason. But I may be wrong.
Really cool concept. I always thought that there had to be some sort of "other transfiguration" for the sins to be transferred. And I always figured that Centurion felt and saw more than we can know. I must ponder this and pray on it for guidance.
A dead man is one who do not have sight of his father.
And his verbal expression of his blindness,
death receives the authority to complete its mission.
Note, his verbalisation of his doubtfulness of his father,
is not something he need to think to do.
It is just a natural occurrence..
Similar to this expression of many presently alive who do not know their father,
So the automatically ask "God where are you"?
Which signifies that they are still dead.
I think he asked the Father to forgive them because that was the whole point of the mission. It was about to reach its climax, "it is finished". He spoke it loud for the benefit of the hearers; that they would understand why he was being crucified. He was about to die for all the sins of humanity, past present and future. Our sin we commit tomorrow was forgiven at that moment 2000 yeas ago. Did the Father answer Jesus is perhaps a bigger debate? Some will say no, that even at this point, strings to Jesus' prayer were already being attached. I think the Father answered him then in the affirmative unconditionally.
As to why he cried out "Father why have you forsaken me" I'm not sure we should take this literally. He was quoting the first line of Psalm 22, but keep on reading this Psalm because it was prophetic of what was happening to Jesus. Just look at verses 6 - 8, 14 -18 which describe exactly what was happening. Verses 25 - 31 describe the eventual results of his sacrifice. Note especially verse 27 which proclaims his sacrifice will result in universal salvation. Verse 31 mirrors his statement "it is finished". In speaking the first line of this psalm Jesus is reminding the crowd of this whole psalm which told them what his mission was all about in a nutshell.
Very interesting reconciliation here. I like it. It is a nice and endearing thought. I have some issues with it. Like a look at the crowd. But that is not important, for clearly He spoke to all for all times. It is comforting to think that Christ would "quote" a portion of a Psalm. But for some reasons this subject is great debate for Christians and Jews alike.
Since you are referring to movies, "The Last Temptation of Christ" would probably explain that question.
Ericdierker- But I add why did Christ also say these words out loud: "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"
Taken from Psalms 22, I believe Jesus said these words out loud that others who were standing nearby could know how he was feeling at that moment on the cross, to bear witness that even the very Son of God experienced what it was like to feel separation from our heavenly Father.
Remember, He was without sin. Then suddenly He was bearing the sins of the entire world. Never had He experienced what it felt like to not be close to His Father. Jesus with with His Father even before creation. It is like always having your parent close by in your sights, close enough that you could talk to at any time and then suddenly you are left alone. Wouldn't you cry out for them?
I have to conclude that it was not His physical suffering, but the taking of the sins into a mortal body somehow. If we sing as David sang it is clearly the separation that causes the wailing and gnashing of teeth. Christ and David were on earth as they spoke such things, yet it appears that the separation from God was truly hell.
Reading the whole of Psalm 22, it describes exactly the scene of the crucifixion as it unfolded, and prophesies the end result, universal salvation in verse 27, and the "it is finished" in verse 31.
I don't read universal salvation as the end result, Universal salvation being eternal life after death. If I am mistaken, please correct me.
The passages in Psalm 22 do not seem to be speaking of spiritual afterlife but rather a physical existence as mentioned (in relation to the scripture you pointed out) in Isaiah 65:17-25.
Verse 27 "All the ends of the earth, will remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him."
So if all the World has turned to the Lord, that wouldn't happen unless, to use a Christian term, they were 'saved'. Thus universal salvation is fulfilled.
"All the ends of the earth,...." written in the days when the earth was considered flat and well defined, with edges that you could fall off, into Hell. We now know that to be a false understanding. How many other misunderstandings do we accept as "gospel?"
Jonny we still used the term 'ends of the Earth' today as a figure of speech to denote the whole World. So whether they thought the Earth was a sphere, a disk, square, or triangle shaped, it's not the point; the writer intended to convey all of humanity.
disappearinghead, it is amazing how it perfectly and metaphorically describes the whole of the passion --- and made more so by the fact there were not crucifixions at the time of David. Nor do I think they had the notion of casting lots for raiment yet. Without going to far into it though, one could easily make a case that the authors describing the passion were deeply influenced by this Psalm in their writing and relating. And we would be remiss if we did not understand much of the New Testament accounts are for the purpose of converting the Jews, who were bound by David's heritage. The end result in understanding changes little with either path one takes. If it is read with the intent of discerning the Love that God has for us.
All of this account was written by the Church of Rome, in order to construct the basis for a religion that they, "the Church," could control. They were building something that would appeal to all manner of psychological needs. Some of those needs are being expressed by all the christians answering this Question.
Each of you is building up, and up, and up, the religion which you feel you want to believe in. You are simply supporting your beliefs to make them valid for yourself. When others then agree with you, it further validates your own beliefs. There the authenticity of it ends.
Jonny, what a valid observation. We do what you say. I would phrase it differently and in a more positive light, but that is just so I would feel better about it. Yes it is nice to share our beliefs and build each other up. Does it get hokey pokey sometimes? Yes. Can we get carried away? Yes. But that is how us crazy Christians roll, and role. The authenticity does not come from us and many Christians forget that as they get all fired up. I know I do. Mia Culpa.
But have no worries friend, just about this time in the feel good, a fuddy duddy always comes along and returns our thoughts to earth. Thanks for keeping it real.
Come on in, don't dive the water is shallow, but it is refreshing. Kind of like those old healing baths. What was that one Bethsheba or something?
Take care Rad Man the world needs you.
Well thank Eric, however narcissistic I am not. The world will be just fine without me. I do however like to think my family needs me.
As for your question "why did Jesus say these words out loud?" we don't really know what he said or if he even existed do we? The gospels were written well after his supposed death so it's a little difficult to know for certain what was said or done. Making matters worse is the many differences in the Gospels which leads one to speculate which version is the closest to the truth. If you were to read the bible without the assumption that the scriptures are not fact, you'll notice things not seen before. Stories of a 6000 year old universe, giants, floods, miracles and human sacrifices begin to sound like fantasy.
Radman, I think the point is that for the sake of a forum discussion, we take the bible for what it is, then discuss what we are reading. Of course your point is valid, we have no certainty at all about what Jesus actually said, but then if we make these statements every time someone wants to start a discussion, very quickly we have no more interesting discussion.
I undersand, and I'll stay away from this one, but I just think it's much more reasonable to ask about what the bible says rather than what Jesus said. This way a conversation can develop more honestly about the ethics of what takes place without it becoming as personal and emotional.
I'll leave it to you fine folks.
But Rad Man, the whole damn world is filled with crap that is not personal or emotional. You can buy that at Walmart. Or you can buy it at a University or gradeschool, hells bells, they give that stuff away, and everybody's garage is full of it until a yardsale or is that a garage sale? Come hang out and get personal and emotional, it is safe here.
Rad Man to your point of Jesus. Think this way for a moment. Part of Atheism is a rally against religion. The hypocritical Pius Bastards running churches is enough to drive any sane man away. I think honest folks must accept some of that. Now look for a white horse or a hero in that fight. The guy's name was Jesus. He rallied the folks against religion. He took the Pharisses and Sadduccees down a notch, he exposed their hypocritical nature and their man made laws as fraud. He talked like Bob Marley and Mother Theresa and Ghandijji and Buddha all rolled into one. Love was his only Mantra. Whores and tax collectors and adulterers need not apply for they are already enrolled, tuition waived. Pull up a rock and share some stinky fish and stale bread and sing some songs. Loud kids and gross lepers come on down and give us a hug.
That is the guy I am talking about.
I just love the way you expressed that in the vernacular..... never heard it put in quite that way before, and it's so well done.
I have shed the "christian" stuff, in particular the dogma. However, my upbringing, which of course was influenced deeply by christian ethics, causes me to hang on to the concept of fair play and truthfulness about our human needs. Whether I think as a Buddhist, an Atheist, an Agnostic, or even reserving part of the Christ as something inside of me.
But the evangelical nonsense that tries to frighten me into accepting BS, not for me!
Jonny, give them my card, and suggest they come by for a good old fashion butt whoopin. Can you even imagine going door to door, when if they really gave a damn they would go with dollars -- shopping cart to shopping cart with hugs and some food, or beer maybe. Now back to Jesus, can you even imagine a dude hanging there all naked, beat up, slashed up, spit on and hammered through, forgiving those who had dunnit?
Yes, I can! He would be one who has been into the depths of his soul; understands the transient nature of everything in this world; has the concerns of others at heart, above anything that can happen to himself; has courage, ney I should say the courage of his convictions; a down-to-earth individual who feels even his friends have forsaken him.
There are such persons in this world today, but we would probably dismiss them as long-haired looney liberalists.
Well said, I would like to think some may dismiss me in such a way. How about that song "What if God were one of us, just a slob like......" I do declare I would like to roll up a dubee (do they still us that term - maybe a blundt?) fish some cold ones out of the river, and talk about whatever with this guy.
But wait, I am doing that with you. And that is cool. Thanks for sitting here a bit and letting me get to know you.
Thank you. I must get showered now, it's 7.05am in the southern hemisphere on the other side of the world.... have a good night.
I know he is said to do and say many good things, but he was not perfect according to the bible. I went to Catholic schools as a child and Mother Theresa was all we heard about. The entire world knew of her and we were told she feed the poor in india and dedicated her life to helping others. I recently saw a documentary that shed some light on what she was up to and let me tell it was not pretty. Witnesses came forward and described how she help people die a painful and sometimes unnecessary death as she thought pain brought them closer to God. It's amazing how the stories of her life were perhaps just stories and this was in modern times. Now, lets imagine what could happen 2000 years ago when nothing was written about his life until at least 30 years after his death.
Let me get my galoshes, umbrella and slicker out, somebody wants to rain on the parade. ;-) Here is a description I read of a famous actor. He is ugly, with hunched shoulders and nose to big for a fleshy face and ears borrowed from an eliphant. The man was not famous for his acting, but he had acted, love the theatre and was famous. The man's name was Abraham Lincoln. I suppose you could write a nasty review of anyone.
Rad Man, I believe this will interest you also. Please visit irrefutabletruths.com and search your way to The Life of Jesus. He was indeed a perfect man who suffered our human frailties in effort to show us the way. You say there is no teaching of him until 30 years past crucifixion. Not true, you only need know where to look. Please venture The Urantia Book and especially "The Life Of Jesus". It will blow you away.
I would never have a problem with that if were kept entirely out of the public and practiced behind closed doors where it belongs.
What's your problem ATM, you make religion sound like prostitution or drug taking.
ATM, there is a school of thought and some bible stuff that reflects your views. And a great deal should be private. But I think I like it in the public. On Sundays midday you can often find me under a big Norfolk pine yacking it up with and to my peoples. Some times passer bys stop in the shade for a bit and listen. Perhaps it may bother some neighbors but not nearly as bad as those cursed leaf blowers, or low riders with stereos so loud they rattle windows. I ain't saying what we talk about is for everyone, but everyone is welcome. Of course those of age are welcome at the local public tavern also. See my point?
I would much rather hear an army of leaf blowers and a parade of low riders than someone selling Jesus in public.
ATM, now where did you get that I was speaking of selling Jesus. Are you just doing your favorite morning exercise? Jumping to conclusions. I just have to wonder how you beat off the hordes of people who want to talk to you ;-) And to be sure, the pine tree is on private property and the land has a permit for such gross gatherings of people plotting to interfere with other folks lives. Today we will discuss how to act in love. And then go out into the world and force that danged love on people. You can run when you see them coming, they will have big smiles on their faces.
There was a man whom I used to watch and hear at Speakers' Corner, in Hyde Park, London. His name was Donald Soper. Whether one agreed with any or all of his preachings, his magnetism in gaining a crowd of on-lookers was amazing.
The reason I bring up his name, is that he had the courage of his convictions. He probably had his fears and self doubts, like most of us have at one time or another. Yet he appeared fearless. All the way through the Second World War, he remained a Pacifist. To be such was a social shame in Britain then. I admire a man with such courage and conviction, regardless of the details of his beliefs.
If any one wants to emulate a person such as Jesus, I challenge you to step outside of your comfortable churchiness and contemplate what it would be like to really stand up and be physically threatened for what you believe. Would you do it?
For me and you, here in HubPages, life can be very safe. Can't it?.
I agree with you but we do live in a different World now in the West. People are not persecuted for their faith, ridiculed maybe. Besides which Jesus' problem was with the religious leaders and I suppose the equivalent are the right wing evangelical church leaderships. Today any one in those Churches who questions their authority, doctrines or homophobic attitudes also faces social shame as your pacifist did. Perhaps little has changed except the severity of sanction against the nonconformist.
Perhaps nothing has changed if we take in the whole world. I suppose the opiate addict, analogy still has some truth. If you threaten to take away that religious dogma...........
Thanks Eric. I should have continued and added this: I am not refuting that authenticity, of individuals having any psychological need that is satisfied by beliefs of their own choosing.
On the Mediterranean island of Ibiza, Spain, there is the old city of Ibiza, on top of the hill. It is built with massive amounts of heavy stone. Can you imagine the work that went into such a building? Hundreds of people, probably over several generations, manually carrying those stones great distances, very hard and crippling labour, that no one would have volunteered for, or done without some coercing by authorities. Those workers presumably had their religion to fall back on. Without such a religion to give them some hope and solace, life would have been totally unbearable.
We see the same sort of need for religion today, in places like Haiti following the earthquake, and I suspect New Orleans following the Tsunami. A great and wonderful psychological prop in times of hardship (and in times of plenty, when the sorrow is replaced by joy).
However, to then take all that religion and turn it into a political tool for subjugating the masses, that for me is evil.
Jonny, you have an issue here. Seriously. You talk in a way that helps people love themselves, and therefor others more fully. You use fancy words but there is a bottom line.
What, you do not like Jesus but you act like him? What up? You suggest hope and joy can replace abject hateful lives, and then you call it religion? That is not religion, that is love. Of course there is always some white robed maniac trying to make a living out of it, or heavily robed fellow yelling from a pulpit that we are all hateful sinners and will burn in hell unless we give generously. That is religion. But what you are talking about is love.
Shortly after one o’clock, amidst the increasing darkness of the fierce sandstorm, Jesus began to fail in human consciousness. His last words of mercy, forgiveness, and admonition had been spoken. His last wish — concerning the care of his mother — had been expressed. During this hour of approaching death the human mind of Jesus resorted to the repetition of many passages in the Hebrew scriptures, particularly the Psalms. The last conscious thought of the human Jesus was concerned with the repetition in his mind of a portion of the Book of Psalms now known as the twentieth, twenty-first, and twenty-second Psalms. While his lips would often move, he was too weak to utter the words as these passages, which he so well knew by heart, would pass through his mind. Only a few times did those standing by catch some utterance, such as, “I know the Lord will save his anointed,” “Your hand shall find out all my enemies,” and “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Jesus did not for one moment entertain the slightest doubt that he had lived in accordance with the Father’s will; and he never doubted that he was now laying down his life in the flesh in accordance with his Father’s will. He did not feel that the Father had forsaken him; he was merely reciting in his vanishing consciousness many Scriptures, among them this twenty-second Psalm, which begins with “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” And this happened to be one of the three passages which were spoken with sufficient clearness to be heard by those standing by.
THIS IS THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION.
I do not quite get all the quotation marks.
And you speak with the authority of one who was there. And I do not quite understand the reason for the all caps at the end.
My apologies, I attempted to correct my source of quotes with my second post. The last sentence I capitalized only to separate them as my words. The answer was supplied by the Midwayer Commission. And as The Urantia Book explains, they were present with many other heavenly host. Imagine this, irrefutable truths and answers to life most complex questions.
That's interesting. A book written after 1924 couldn't have been written by someone standing there at the time of the crucifixion. It's an interesting thought but you can't possibly use it as THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION. It's simply one opinion.
Oh but I can, irrefutable truths. My answer was quoted from The Urantia Book and authored by the "Midwayer Commission" a distinct part of the heavenly host whom were indeed present at the time of crucifixion. The answers I posted pose no threat to mankind. It should only serve as comfort to all that believe.
The midwayer commission? Part of the heavenly hosts? Gee. Thanks for clearing that up. If you are that gullible, I guess you would accept that as THE ANSWER.
It always intrigues me when someone signs up here on HubPages, states a lot of religious stuff as fact, when they are not willing to come out of anonymity. No information about the authenticity of that writer. Nothing for us from which to gain confidence about the writer.
So..... we can presume that writer is a troll, who is just trying to stir things up with their opinions.
My earlier reply clearly answered the wrong question to the original post but here I have represented the correct answer to the original post. My source is The Urantia Book, which leaves no questions unanswered.
187:2.4 Before Jesus was put on his cross, the two brigands had already been placed on their crosses, all the while cursing and spitting upon their executioners. Jesus’ only words, as they nailed him to the crossbeam, were, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” He could not have so mercifully and lovingly interceded for his executioners if such thoughts of affectionate devotion had not been the mainspring of all his life of unselfish service. The ideas, motives, and longings of a lifetime are openly revealed in a crisis.
188:5.6 The triumph of the death on the cross is all summed up in the spirit of Jesus’ attitude toward those who assailed him. He made the cross an eternal symbol of the triumph of love over hate and the victory of truth over evil when he prayed, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” That devotion of love was contagious throughout a vast universe; the disciples caught it from their Master. The very first teacher of his gospel who was called upon to lay down his life in this service, said, as they stoned him to death, “Lay not this sin to their charge.”
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are did he?
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