Why did Jesus Christ Create the world?
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Or maybe noone created the world. The world was more than likely formed by gravity and mass within the universe.
It is always entertaining when someone is intentionally obtuse. What mechanism was employed in creation? Was it a finger snap or the natural mechanisms of gravitation?
The universe is part of a natural cycle. So then is belief, a part of nature. The human mind is natural to us and it is a tool we use to observe the things around us. This is how we are part of the nature of the universe and because we are inquisitive, we question the why of it.
No the Bible states Jesus spoke it into being.
not to get technical on YOU, vmartineswilson...but GODS Word says that CHRIST was with GOD from the beginning and that all things that were made were made by HIM...and the simplest answer is that HE wanted to.
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first, when i capitalize all the letters in CHRIST, JESUS, or GOD...it is a show of my respect and reverence for the owners of said names. it is not yelling...if i were to yell ALL my letters would be capitalized. second, the bibles DOES mention CHRIST as being in the beginning with GOD and creating the world.
Ephesians 3;9
9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Hebrews 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
and for those who say why believe literary instead of reality...the bible is reality...for those who believe, it is the Word of GOD, our guide to knowing our GOD.
Umm...I think you meant to say, "OR did he?", as using "are" isn't grammatically correct. granted, I shouldn't be saying anything considering that I know I'm not innocent when it comes to grammar mistakes, but still. I just thought I'd point that out.
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He did not create the worldare did he????
And Jesus didn't create the world, according to the Bible. His old man did.Jesus didn't create the world. Some lonely old vengeful dude did. Then he impregnated a virgin so that his son could be born and tortured and killed so human kind can feel guilty for the rest of their lives.
See it's so much simpler and far less confusing just being an athiest.It is not reasonable to start doubting as do the atheists ; it is very natural to believe in the Creator God.
How is it natural? If it were natural, then animals would believe in god.
How do you know they don't?
That is an unsupportable assertion.it isnt a matter of animals "believing" in GOD...they simply "know" instinctively that HE exists.when i was young and in school, one day while waiting for the school bus at school, i was looking for a place to sit down. the only place available was on a small wall retainer. however, just inside the wall was a huge ant pile. i debated for a few minutes of the wisdom of sitting there, but i really needed to sit down, so i finally shrugged and asked GOD to please tell the ants that if they left me alone, I would not harm any of them. i sat there for a good 20 minutes and not one ant came near me. many years later, when i was 18, i was hitch hiking. i had been walking along a long empty stretch and it was very hot. i really wanted to sit down and rest, but every where i looked were red ants. i couldnt find a spae that did not have them. then i remembered what i had done in school, and once again i asked GOD to speak to the ants for me. i sat down and rested, and i watched the ants. they went everywhere...yet not one came near me.
'they simply "know" ' - you amaze me with your answer, tlmcgaa70!
If humans could simply stop their thoughts, maybe there's a chance for us to 'simply know'.
For now, I guess it's: "For it is by faith not by sight that we walk"man was separated from GOD by sin. animals were not. no matter what an animal does, it is not sin. manknows right from wrong on a level animals cannot, because we know what GOD has commanded. animals know GOD exists and they obey HIM, both instinctively in their living as their individual natures dictate and in that should GOD command them, they obey. they do not struggle with questions over HIS existence or right to command them. they were not given the choice to accept or reject HIM. GOD showed HIS favor to us above the animals and all other creation by giving us that right to choose.
Lewsethics...it is ok that you have a hard time believing that...my life is cram packed with things and events you would also have a hard time believing in.
A baby cannot learn anything if it starts doubting everything that his parents or family friends or members of the family tell him.
It's all the same to me. It just is and that is all. Why should I be worried about things then or tomorrow, when I can worry about them now?
Living in the past makes us think about the past, living in the future makes us think about the future and living in the now keeps us reallistic.A mindfulness of now is required if one is to think about the world, its nature and our place in it.
Random chaos - you mean the world or our minds?
Creating/thinking about the now is creating the future. (There's no fun in realism but it is...real? Maybe.The future is created by decission, but let us pretend we weren't here to acknowledge the future or the past. Would there then be no present? We are aware of time and in being aware, we have created lables and causality as to the changes time brings about. But we know that the future is chaos, for we cannot see the future.
and apparently bitter, angry and condescending.
not so much, it is just hard to find words that are agreeable to everyone. They again, are part of the four noble truths, which again are absolute to the obserever.
I am not angry at anyone or anything, I just think it is all the same, no matter how we look at things. The context may be a little different, but the subject matter is all the same.personally mischeviousme, i did not find anything in your first statement to be bitter, angry OR condescending. it was a simple statement of your belief. i wonder if i stated that GOD is my world and nothing else is as important to me as my relationship to HIM...would I also be bitter, angry or condescending?
Not in the least. You can state your beliefs and I will either agree or not. It is the point of having a mature conversation, without prejudice or conjecture. When you are done, I will talk and it should be the same vice a versa. This is what is missing today. Patience and the will to be calm.
Plus it is hard to write ideas. The inflections we use with our speech, help us to better clarify what we are saying.people who are fully convinced of the real truth usually do not have difficulties conversing with others of a differing belief. most of the arguing about GOD comes from people who do not understand GOD or HIS true nature.
I don't think I understand God but I can certainly have a polite conversation. I think the opposite is true as well in many cases. People who are convinced of their truth often are the most argumentative and defensive. (Not saying you or everybody). Those who are not intimidated by others regarding their truth would be the most likely to have the best conversations.
It's difficult being human and in being human, we have all this baggage to carry. We unload or we suppress, some unload with anger, others with kindness. Suppression can lead to violence or it can quell it. It is the insanity of the human race.
couturepopcafe, what i mean to say is this...when a believer gets to the point where they finally realize it isnt their place to make others believe, that is GODs place and HE is the only one who can convince anyone of HIS existence, and we also accept that everyone was given by GOD the right to accept or reject HIM, then we are able to converse with others of differing beliefs without difficulty. we may not approve or even like their beliefs but that is in truth not our concern. how we act and treat others IS our concern though. we cant spend our lives worrying about the choices, or actions of others when we need all our concentration to keep ourselves out of trouble.
Not you - our simple atheist. It is my experience that many atheists tend to be condescending and bitter.
I am not an atheist, I just state the truth as I see it. I can see a truth behind God and I can see the truth from the atheist side. I am an observer and While I have personal beliefs, I think that they are, in my eyes, of no consequence when it comes to these discussions, I just state how I see it.
I was just stating that. I am not arguing or defending myself.
you are correct in that...but i know many so called christians who are also bitter, angry, condescending and down right rude.
People are like that, I must say I am human and I amno more to it than anyone else. We all have our moments.
We are all flawed. This is one reason why I tend to shy away from discussions of religion. There are Christians willing to damn people. I am more concerned about the state of my soul not the state of an other's soul. I do not abide snottiness, easily.
Snottiness is easier than constructive criticism. It is easier to be negative, because it takes work to be cordial or "nice", if you will.
How ever no one gets points for nice. Occasionally firm is necessary and other times rough is required.
actually, that depends on who is giving out the points...since i am "judged" by GOD, HE is my point giver, so i get points for being nice and points are detracted for not being nice. so for me being nice is doubly rewarding...not only do i please my GOD, i please myself to. it feels better being nice than mean. and sometimes firmness is required as you say...if roughness is required then it is to close to argumentativeness and therefore i have overstayed in a discussion i should not be participating in.
I am trying to think where the nice thing is in the Bible.
@ucv - IMO, people do get points for being nice. In these forums, for example, there are those who are consistently levelheaded in comments and I notice them as well as the ones who are consistently inciting riot.
We can be nice and firm (ok, poor choice of words). Are you from New Jersey? (just curious). You look familiar.
uncorrectedvision...i also tend to stay away from religious discussions...i dislike the way people treat each other there. and you are absolutely right about worrying about the state of our own souls and not anothers. we are responsible for our own actions, thoughts, and words. regardless of how others treat us, how we respond is what matters.
Is this not art? having a discussion of this magnetude and still we have not gotten angry. This is how the discussion should be handled, like it matters to the reader of the post, not the content of the phrases therein.
Your question presupposes the existence of Jesus.
He did It, For it pleases Him to create, He is the Father and the Creator of all. GOD as the son was there before the world was. Because He tells us so in the Good Book.
He is the one who speaks to Job in the Book of Job. Where ever God speaks in this world Directly to anyone, Jesus Stands there in the flesh. Before and after His crucifixion Or an angel Would or will bring the message. Moses; Saw only God in His spirit as a flaming Bush that did not Burn or which was consumed, because of the Message GOD wish Moses to receive.
Donnie/ Sinbad the ManHe created the world purely for His own glory.
The One True Living God of Israel and Jacob created the world.
Not Jesus.
You are confusing litarary form with reality.This looks like fun. No one agrees. Soooo, if Jesus is the Word, then when God said let there be light, the word was Jesus and light was created because of the word. Correct?
Jesus is not the word. Havent you heard? The bird is the word.
Laughing so hard I'm crying!
(thinking of Family Guy, and Peter singing)@J was a hippy - Wow, you are an old hippy Damn, now I'm gonna be singing that song all day.
It is called personification, and is used in many place in the bible, Emile.
Psalms is a great example, the "goddess" wisdom, do we believe her to be a real goddess? No. Yet she pesonifies the wisdom of the Lord.
Do not confuse litarary prose for plain speak.
That is like saying the world is flat because someone would chase you to the ends of it, or the four corners of it.So you throw the first verses of John out the window? That's interesting. Are you a JW?
I do not throw them out. I take them in context.
What would make you think because I do not believe that to infer the trinity, nor the God-hood of Christ, that I throw it out?
John is telling you that The holy Spirit, God's creatove force in the world, created the world. And that it was done with the intent of God's plan through Jesus Christ to be brought to fruition.
God saw what would occur wayyyyyy before creation. And thus Christ existed before cration in God's plan.
And once God decreed this plan, it was.
Matter of fact the proper translation for the name of God, I am, is not, I am, but, I will become, or I will be.
Thus when Christ told them...
John 8:58. Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. (it should read... before Abraham was, I will be.) Because Christ was the ultimate goal of God's plan for salvation, the only goal, without which it would be for naught.
The translation should read in the expectant future tense.
John is also saying that God's work through his prophets is done by the "Word", the "Holy Spirit". And that the Holy Spirit dwelled with Christ and he held full authority over its use and actions.
I throw nothing out.. I simply do not read the Gospels as a Polytheistic religion.
I leave that to the Chaldean Catholics.
No. I am not a Jehovah's Witness.Ok. Well, let me ask you this. I don't think the early Christians agreed on who, or what, Jesus was. And I suppose there is no reason to expect people to agree so long after the fact. How come you think it's important enough to be a cause to separate yourself from other believers?
I do not seperate myself from other believers, Emile.
I simply move among them speaking of what I see and know. If they chose to not associate with me because say,... I deny the trinity... which I have had happen... then that is there problem.
I base my understanding on the apostolic teachings.
And yes even then, 1st century, there were those who were creeping into the church and twisting the doctrine of Christ. Simon Magus being a perfect example. Considering it was he that introduced alot of the blasphemies and heresies we still have among us today. Including that whore, the Chaldean Catholic Church.
The Apostles speak in one voice as to the truth of Christ and who and what he was. A Man!
I don't need a bunch of men to sit around and devise creeds and doctrines, and claim they have just clearified them for us.
As I have said before, God does not hide the truth from us.
As to what denomination I am... I am absolutely no donomination.When you call other church organizations whores, it appears an attempt to alienate, if not to separate.
I do get what you are saying, but truth in a biblical perspective seems open to a lot of interpretation. Everyone does the best they can. I simply wonder, if God exists, would he be happy with all of the infighting and backstabbing. I don't think so. I wouldn't be.you are so right Emile R...GOD is not happy with the fighting...that is why we are admonished not to argue. in truth all argument is is people who are so sure they are right that they insist everyone acknowledge it, so they argue endlessly until they nearly forget what they are arguing about in the first place. from a "christian" stand point...when you start arguing you have already lost your cause. as far as belief in GOD goes...GOD gave all man the right to choose HIM or reject HIM. if HE gave all mankind this right, then who or what are HIS followers to rob them of that right by insisting they worship GOD? we can share and testify...but we do not have any right to force it.
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Yahshua was the word of God in that he was the voice of God (in his day) and spoke every word God gave him.
God's voice (not Yahshua) created everything..."Let there be light, and there was light"I was just having some fun. It appeared everyone was in disagreement, so I was playing along. It seems like a silly thing to argue. It's simply opinions.
Everyone disagreeing about a religious concept, say it isn't so. You know I have been thinking about it for a while and I can't think of a single time in history in which people have ever disagreed about religion.
The correct spelling would be "Yeshua", which is translated as "God's Salvation" or "God is Salvation." This is the Hebrew name for Jesus, the Son of God, the Word made flesh, Immanuel: " God with us." Jesus, Yeshua, came FROM heaven to earth. John's Gospel, Chapter 1, goes into specific detail about the Word and is a great place to start reading the New Testament! We could all argue on here all day, but the fact remains that believing is based on faith and the Bible states: "By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible."~Hebrews 11:3. About Christ's deity, being One with the Father, "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation."~Colossians 1:15. For insight into how one can understand things that are spiritually discerned, I would recommend reading ICorinthians 2:6-16. This is a truly thought provoking subject that is unfortunately very arguable as we have a large pool of believers and unbelievers alike. Makes for good discussion!
And you are confusing fairytales with reality.......
Wow, that is what you have. Can you bring a bigger set of tools to the table.
John 1:1-3 shows that the Word(Jesus) was with God in the beginning and all things were created by Him.
Jesus didn't create the world. He came in in the middle of the movie.
You must be bored. Why did you ask the question? You are off task for what you should be doing. Quit wasting time and do something constructive or functional.
Holidays got you down?Perhaps He created the world for His own Plea
sure. That's what it say about creating man in Rev Chapter 4. And that's exactly why people create things. We create poems, songs, books and many other things for plesure.; And, of course we create other things for comfort such as beds, chairs, heating and cooling appliences.
So at the risk of oversimplfying, I would say for His Pleasure.Since this was dropped on my comment, I will respond. Maybe the question wasn't off task after all. I shouldn't make light of seemingly insincere questions when there are succinct and sincere answers that may illuminate us.
I hate quarky programs. I have trouble following the poorly designed threads. It seems as if this is in response to my comment about the original question,"Why did Jesus create the world?"
If you are asking me if I took my meds . . . I don't get it. I stand by my initial response when this popped up my sign in page. Normally, I would let it pass, but it was exceptionally inane. I would reword my response if I could, "Get out of my face with your meaningless question."
It soon degenerated into the usual goofy debate. However, I noticed you spoke quite well. As a matter of fact, I came over and gave you a follow for your accuracy.
I noticed your situation. Let me give you a Devereux answer, "No. I am down to stems and seeds."
- Muldaniaposted 12 years ago
0It was probably the Christmas holidays, and there was nothing on TV, except for the Muppet Christmas Carol, so Jesus opened the chemistry set His dad had brought Him for Christmas and started to experiment. And the rest is history.
First of all, God created the heavens and the earth and everything within it. The term "world" is a general term that describes an existence of place which is individualistic in nature. As individuals each one of us create our own world as it is true that we are given freedom of choice (thanks to Adam and Eve who chose to go against God's instruction.) Jesus Christ as a human individual did not create the world. Jesus Christ was made flesh through birth by Mary to do one thing- To Save This World. There is also a difference through what is "worldly" and what is "spiritual". "Worldly" also is interpreted as "carnal" meaning it is refering to physical nature. All in all, Jesus Christ, who was only in human flesh so that he could directly help us on earth, was only an instrument of God's Will so he did not come to create the world but to help it. The verse in the Gospel of John, chapter 3, verse 16 tells the truth- "For God so loved the world, that He Sent His only Son, that those who believe in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."
YHWH is the God and the only creation of his is Jesus. It was
Jesus who created everything else. Jesus is not God as Christians believeonly creation is jesus??...so jesus was tried to be tempted by its own creation and its own creations hanged him....hmmm...interesting....
History is replete with sons hanging fathers. Besides, Christ was meant to be hung by his creations
The creator has always existed. He can neither be created not destroyed. But, you say, that is impossible. There is notheng that cannot be created nor destroyed. Well, according to science--Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Who saids that religion and science cannot exist in the same universe?
If energy cannot be created or destroyed, then it stands to reason that the universe has always existed and can therefor not possibly have beginning or have been created.
What do you think about that?I thinkj that God is the energy that gives life to the universe. What do you think of that?
We have verifiable evidence a universe exists, we have evidence energy and matter exists, and we have evidence that energy and matter cannot be created nor destroyed.
We don't however, have any verifiable evidence for any gods.
I think that placing belief in that which has no evidence carries no merit.
Why did Jesus Christ Create the world?
Jesus did not claim to have created the world; how could he claim it when the world already existed before his birth from the Virgin Mary.the being we know as JESUS CHRIST was around long before HIS human birth. in fact, HE came to earth on several occasions. off the top of my head are 2 such cases...HE appeared to Abraham while going to sodom and HE was in the furnace with Meshac, Shadrac and Abednego.
Paarsurrey, you know better
You know Jesus was Micheal in heaven before he was born.
You also know Jesus was the first creation of GodJW love to claim Jesus and Michael are one in the same. I've never had one give a valid reason for this belief. Where does it come from? I get the Jesus is Malchezidek argument, but I've never gotten this one.
JESUS was not Michael.
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
look closely at verse three...this includes all the angels including Michael.In the beginning was the Word...guess there is where most religions merge...
You to exist before His birth through Mary and yet you to do exist. something does not come from nothing it has come to point that two here in this world must come together to make a third it was not so before the fall.
Jesus Christ did not create the world; he himself was created by the Creator God whom he used to pray when in distress.
- Deborah Sextonposted 12 years ago0
A lot of Christians use John 8:56-58 to try to prove Yahshua (Jesus) is God.
John 8:56-58
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
That’s one reason to study the Old Testament
In Exodus 3:13-14
Moses says to God when I tell the people “the God of your fathers hath sent me ” They shall ask me, What is his name? what shall I Tell them?
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
So what Yahshua was saying is that “The I Am” (God) existed before Abraham and told him of Yahshua’s day
After all we’ve already learned Yahshua wasn’t speaking of himself:
John 12:49
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 14:10
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Psalms 33:6, 9
By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.if THE CHRIST was GOD then why did HE teach HIS followers to pray "to THE FATHER"? HE taught us to pray to the FATHER in the name of the SON. the CHRIST and GOD are one in that they are of one purpose...CHRIST taught us to be obedient to our FATHER (GOD)...just as HE HIMSELF was. none of the verses above means that CHRIST is GOD.
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I never said Christ was God. Wow did you even read what I wrote?
Yahshua is not God
I fully agree with you. The Christians misunderstand the context of "I am".
In Genesis 1:1 the scripture say: In the beginning God created heaven and earth (the world). He use Jesus Christ his only son to save the world. In John 3:16 the scripture say: FOR GOD SO LOVE THE WORLD THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE. And during the time when God created the world that was B.C. "BEFORE CHRIST", so meaning to say, when God created the world Lord Jesus Christ was not yet born.
perhaps the third time will be the charm...the being we know as The CHRIST existed long before HIS physical birth...i.e. HE has always existed.
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jesus Christ didn't create the world. According to the Bible, God the Father did, not Jesus.
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I agree with you
Psalms 33:6, 9
By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.
Those who are most adamant about understanding what the scriptures mean, are the ones who don't
Yahshua said he spoke of God and not of himself
John 12:49
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 14:10
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.I agree with Disturbia and Deborah Sexton that Jesus did create nothing; it was the Creator God who created everything.
It is useless deborah.
They have been so indoctrinated into the Cathilic doctrine of the trinity, that they cannot grasp that the "Word" of john's Gospel, is not Christ.
As it says... "For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies."
Considering "wine" speaks to doctrine, and fornication equates to whoring, which equates to straying to foriegn doctrines or gods... then I say it was pretty spot on as far as concerns the Catholic Church and the trinity.********************
I am happy you have ears to hear and eyes to see the truth.
According to scripture that makes you of God.
Jeremiah prophesied that the Gentiles would realize that their fathers had inherited lies
Jeremiah 16:19
O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.
Read John 1:3 for what this disciple knew of The Master, for "All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made which was made."
i dont think disturbia has read any posted comments for if they had they would have seen that verse posted three times already. when people say "according to the bible" i wish they would actually read and study it first so they actually know what they are talking about.
Again all the answers can't just be laid out for everyone to see. To find the answers one is looking for, one should have their eyes and ears open.
Even funnier. Sorry you don't understand. Your brain is shut lol
My mind is open to all beliefs. It is not belief however, that drives me to seek answers. It is my will to do that which I do and no amount of arguing or point chasing will change my way.
Even funnier. Well done. LOL U must be a archiologist, Palientologist lol Brain shut. lol
I am a subjective personallity and I will not let belief steer me away from other people, even the ones that disagree with a form of truth. While it may not be true for another, it is an absolute truth and we are all part of it. At least this my illusion and I'm happy to be in it.
If it amuses you, then I am happy for you. If I have made a person laugh, then I am happier for it.
So how do you know energy exists. You cannot see it. You can feel it. It is everywhere at once. It is all powerful. Without it, there would be no power in the universe. So, how do you know that it is not god. God is all powerful and all present. We also say he is all knowing. You believe in energy even though you cannot see it. So I cn ask you the same questions about energy that you ask about God. You say that you see it working in the lives of people. Well, I think many see that God is working in the lives of people. Therefore, I contend there is as much verifiable evidence for God as there is for energy.
There is no reason to believe that it IS god. Claiming that energy is god is a positive claim that requires evidence. I dont need to disprove your claim, you need to prove it. Until then, I shall suspend placing belief in your claim.
Well that is just your opinion that you cannot demonstrate to be true. First you have to demonstrate that a god exists and then, ONLY then can you start attributing values to said god.
No you cant. We can control energy by use of batteries. We get the same results every time we control it. We can SEE energy in lightning storms so ur claim that I believe without seeing it is not true.
I never said that. Are you just going to make things up about me? What's the point in that?
Again that is just your own opinion.
You based that on your own opinion which is not based on any verifiable evidence. You cannot just contend that there is evidence, you have to provide it.
Why did Jesus Christ create the world?
Jesus created nothing.
Jesus did not claim to have created the world; how could he claim it when the world already existed before his birth from the Virgin Mary.
Jesus himself was a servant of the Creator God; it is for this that when in distress he prayed to the ONE- the Creator God whom he used to say God-the-Father.
It is the Christians who invented Trinity; Jesus believed in no Trinity and did not pray to Trinity when in distress.I agree. Religious people make up all kinds of nonsense.
Same is true of the atheists; nevermind, after all the are human beings. It is good if they talk sense sometimes; I appreciate them.
Of course, everybody talks nonsense sometimes. I do my best to not talk nonsense and if I did by accident, I would NEVER assert it as true.
@jwh what u say non sense is perfect sense for religious folks...till science answers questions , religious's answer would keep people satisfied...who created universe?...religious answer creator...who created creator?..religious answer-none ,HE was always there...now doesnot make sense but this constant remains since thousands of years...
GOD and CHRIST exist outside of time. time exists for us, not them. beginning and ending are both qualities of time. time is a concept man can understand, thus we are told they have no beginning and no ending. we understand beginnings and endings, we dont understand a lack of beginnings or endings.man has a hard enough time accepting eternity, a time without time. and that is ahead of us...man simply can't accept that there is also an eternity behind us. no man can know the fullness of our CREATOR. nor can we understand HIS ways. yet, for those who live in obedience to HIM, HE gives a glimpse of it, and even that does not even scratch the surface of HIM.
I can accept that THEY exist outside of time. I can accept that in some way I cannot fully understand, THEY have always existed. if THEY have always existed, then it stands to reason there was never a need for THEM to be created.
and i say THEM because CHRIST was with GOD from the beginning...who else is the "US" in "Let US make man in OUR image"?@tlmcgaa nice concept...but a concept... anyways thanks for sharing ur views...
Awesome, @tlmcgaa70!
Deep and profound, but well-put. Indeed, God and Christ are timeless -- outside of the space-time continuum. That is, after all the domain of creation's source.
Perhaps it wouldn't surprise you to learn that the true selves (spirit, soul) asleep within each of us is also timeless.
These bodies are temporary vessels for the children of God during their rescue. Too bad so many of these children refuse to be rescued. They still think they are their Homo sapiens bodies.lone77star, you are right...i have known that for a long time now, but not so much because anyone told me but because as far back as i can remember i have felt the difference in my body. it gets more pronounced the more this body ages. who I am, never ages. i can feel the timelessness of my spirit. that is when i really realized that "I am". and i am not claiming to be GOD here..."I am" is a statement of my existence, of who I am. just as GOD was proclaiming about HIMSELF. i exist, therefore...i am.
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The original Hebrew did not say "Let us" or "in our image"
It was changed to that when the Greek Septuagint was written.GOD had one universal bible created for us. HE has protected it against mans attempts to destroy it and HE has caused it to be spread throughout the world. the is the KJV bible. if it says a thing, then that is what GOD wanted us to know. if some books were left out of it, then that is how GOD meant for it to be. if it says "let US" and "in OUR image" then that is how it was.
Everything you just said, is a manifestation of personal truth and is not the litteral way it was meant to be taken. It is said that when you actively seek the wisdom of a pastor, leave your brain in the parking lot. I would never take the spiritual words of another, for I have to take it with a grain of salt. Meaning, don't take it so seriously.
GOD alone is my teacher. if HE gave us this Book to guide us and to teach us wisdom, then I do take it very seriously. i know which parts to take literaly and which parts to take figuratively. i do not look to man to teach me about GOD...for by reason of the limits of the human mind even the most religiously educated man can, when all is said and done, only give his or her own interpretation of what the bible means. GOD on the other hand, the CREATOR of HIS Holy Word, knows exactly what HE means and there fore it is to HIM i look to for a full and truthful interpretation of HIS Words.
So then why do you accept the trinity? Which is a creation of man.
Do you think if you had read the bible without any knowledge of the trinity that you would have come up with it on your own?
And you know the catholic scholars added words and mistranslated certain verses in john? In order to support and give creedance to the trinity.
I am just wondering, TLM.
Here is a very goods study of the creation of the trinity. It speaks to each and every verse trinitarians use to support the trinity... and when you see what has been to make the trinity stick... you may just change your mind about it. And they ask you to have your bible out and your computer ready to go verify all they say.
http://dawnchristadelphians.net/books/trin/trinind.htmthe words "the trinity" belong to religion. i do not. GOD exists, CHRIST exists and GODs Holy Spirit exist. they have always existed. they are separate yet one. i understand this and accept it. it is a truth that man has a difficult time coming to terms with. i knew GOD, or CHRIST before ever i was taught about them or read about them. I met CHRIST when i was 3 yrs old and died. i have walked with HIM since i was old enough to comprehend that HE existed. I do not know a day in my life that did not have GOD in it. GOD is the same thing to me as the air i breathe...take GOD from me (if that were possible) and i would die. i will and have been rejected by certain family members because of my walk with GOD...and i would prefer to have GOD than them. than anyone.
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The Hebrew bible is the one Yahshua taught from and has not changed. It is still in circulation in Israel, it is the real one. The others are fakes.
But that's between you and God.
True children of God search and pray for truth because they know God is deep.
The bible is full of metaphors and parables so that only those who truely seek God will understand.
Matthew 13:10
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Matthew 13:11
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Matthew 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.i stand by what i have already said on this subject.
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LOL Okay.
Certainly if there is a choice between the original Hebrew or--
An English version written and completed in 1611, by 47 different people,
why would you ever choose the original?i am not going to repeat myself...if you didnt get it the first time you wont no matter how many times i say it.
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This is no joke
Just for the heck of it, please tell me how many of each animal did Noah take on the Ark with him.2Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
3Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
i can tell you it is more than what most people believe. when you take into consideration the verses above, and then read what was considered clean and what wasn't...animals with cloven hooves and that chewed the cud for instance, were considered clean, then you realize that many such mammals went in by sevens and not just by two's.*******************
I wanted you to respond without looking it upWhen it says "Male and his Female" I take this to mean 7 pairs. If we brought just 7 then there wouldn't be "a Male and his female". there would either be an extra Male or female animal. The Bible seems to count only the Males of Age. Like with the 5000 fed by Jesus. This was 5000 men who where of age (between 20-60 give or take), this number did not include the women and children.
deborah, i looked it up not because i didnt know the answer but because i wanted scripture to back up my statement.
Oh, but my dear @JwaH, you do assert nonsense as true. You hold your opinions to be true. Like on another forum claiming that "You weren't alive before you were born and you wont be alive after you die."
Your supposed "omniscience" speaks volumes. You may not have proof of such things, but a lack of proof never proved anything but a lack of proof. To claim that this disproves something is an argument to ignorance (an all-too-common logical fallacy).Clearly and briefly stated. Thank you.
Jesus Christ created the World? Now that is news to me! Why don't you check your facts by reading the Bible?
@anamika...ya he did...just 2k yr ago...
um, you are short a few thousand years. this world is between 6 and 7 thousand years old. i am making no predictions, just sharing a feeling...and that is that due to the number 7 being the perfect number and one GOD has used several times, i feel that this world will end when we reach the 7 thousandth year. yet even felling this i cannot say what day, week, month or year that will fall on. it is not given to man to know our endings.
No it is 2k yrs ...It began with christ only...u r wrong...please read original bible....
2 thousand yrs may have passed since the birth of CHRIST...but there were at least 4 thousand yrs of life on this planet before CHRISTs birth. you seem to think that the world came into creation the day CHRIST took physical form and was born here on earth...that makes no sense at all. i read the KJV bible, it is the only one i trust.
well even 6-7k doesnot make sense at all...so when we are talking some thing which doesnot make sense than why 6k , why not 2k ?
ummm, maybe because it isn't just guess work or random figure. it is the amount of time that has passed for us according to the bible. i am sorry if you can't comprehend that but it doesnt change it.
it would with time...like before vatican said earth is unique but now are open to possibility of lives our other planet...so slowly with time this time period shall change....
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The Hubble shows that it has been 13.7 billion years since the big bang.
And the Bible does not indicate how much time has passed. Show me the scriptures that say this.
You say you learn from God and not people..but neither God nor scripture taught you thatdeborah, i seriously doubt you are in a position to tell me what GOD may or may not have taught me. it is in the bible, but not one scripture...that is what one learns when they actually study scripture.
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Not in a position???
I'm an ordained and licensed minister and my husband is a Jewish Rabbe.
I also have my certificate of semichah
I've STUDIED scripture in Hebrew, Greek, and English.
Are you judging me?judging is not what christ preached...so juding , ridiculing , making some one wrong is against christ ....
i am not judging you deborah, yet you judged me a liar. yay for you on your accomplishments and titles. they mean nothing to me. i have spoken to many self proclaimed atheists who have also studied scripture. satan knows scripture to. yet none of them understand it. i have yet to hear you say something that tells me you understand it. i live in obedience to my GOD and HIS laws, in return HE teaches me understanding.
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You are responding to Pisean and not to me.
I never said you were judging me, I asked if you were.
Forget what Pisean said and read what I wrote
http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/89716?p … ost1920965
I never said you were a liar..I said neither God nor the Bible taught you that the world is as young as you say…I’ve read the bible and it is nowhere in there, and God wouldn’t lie about it.
You however insinuated that I am not of God, by your comment that I am not in a position …
I worked hard for my titles and I am happy for them. I don’t care if they don’t matter to you, they do to my family and me.
Of course you don’t feel I have posted anything that shows I know scripture.
I tried to show you who Yahshua was talking about when he said “before Abraham was I am”
Although you said you read it several times you also said you didn’t understand what I meant. You even thought I was saying God and Yahshua were both God.
If you don’t understand what I am saying, don’t say it’s because I don’t know scripture
By the way, nothing you have said makes me think you understand scripture either, just the opposite. I can see how far you have to go.deborah, this is turning into an argument..."i said", "you said" i meant", "you meant"...i dislike arguments as they are pointless and gain no one anything. i think this is the point when we should agree to disagree and leave it at that.
now i know why you lack understanding. you discount certain books of the bible. i dont mind being compared to Paul, who was not a false apostle. you must be old order jew. believe what you want about me, i dont care. i do care what GOD thinks of me, and since HE told us not to strive over words, i choose to stop before this gets blown out of control. i am not so vain as to think i know everything there is about GOD. if you need to be right in this so badly...i concede. you know more than i do.
Yes, Anamika, read it but diligently. Don't read the Bible as you read the other doctrines or books.
You might get an idea about this vastly discussed subject in biblestudents.com
What you read in the Bible may not at all mean what it says. And, there is not a verse in the Bible that does not have another verse which together make a pair. Read them together to make sense of what they both say.TMMason says I have a problem with over half the forums being religion. Agree or disagree?
@paradigmsearch. Whether I agree (or anyone else agrees) or not is meaningless. Do you have a problem with it?
John 1:3 couldn't make this clearer as to Christ's role in creating the world. That's part of any study of the Holy Bible.
God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) created the world, and in that truth resonates the answer to "why". God is, within in Himself, relationship . . . when the Bible says that "God is love" it's not merely being poetic or suggesting that God loves things or likes love, etc - the point is that God actually is love. That doesn't mean He is a feeling in our hearts or a force in the universe - God is the infinite, eternal being . . . but love, true love not our corrupted romantic notions of obsession or familial attraction, comes from the very being of God. Apart from God there is no authentic love.
We think that love is the opposite of hate, but benevolence is the opposite of hate - real love is the opposite of selfishness . . . love is the interest and desire in the other person's welfare above an interest and desire for your own, love is not feeling warm and fuzzy inside about someone it's sacrificially doing those things that delight the one loved. Love is not about you, it's about others.
Before creation, before man, there was love - the Father loved the Son, the Son loved the Father, etc, etc. The Christian concept of the Trinity, though endlessly debated, is not a doctrinal notion dreamed-up to advance some pope's rule over the masses - the doctrine of the Trinity is man's attempt to articulate the idea presented in the Bible . . . the Bible presents the Father as God, it presents Jesus as God, and it presents the Holy Spirit as God while clearly and directly declaring that there is one God and God is one. The Trinity is not trying to make sense of what man cannot comprehend (3 as 1 and 1 as 3) but is simply taking the text of Scripture as we find it.
So, as I say; God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) created the world, and in that truth resonates the answer to "why". God is, within in Himself, relationship . . . God is a relational being who loves, He created the world to manifest and celebrate that love. God made man that He might love man.Mickey Sr...may i please have your permission to copy and paste what you said to my facebook? i think there are some among my friends list who will gain much by it.
. . . anything, anytime - if you're sure it's a good idea (I'm always a bit surprised when folks say I put things 'well' or 'beautifully', etc - I think of myself as being seen as way too wordy and making things more difficult than they have to be . . . but, I write the way I think, so). Thank you for your generous review.
i know exactly what you mean...i have a great difficulty in expressing my thoughts or feelings in only a few words. i am sure short, sweet and to the point would be far preferable to many of my "books"...yet i have not quite figured out how to pull that little trick off. yet sometimes wordy is better...if it takes you (or the reader) to the place you want to get to. as you can see, i to write the way i think. and thank you for the permission.
Religion is never wrong...but which my friend...there are 400 known religions in the world...
As far as my belief is concerned (no one has to defend a belief, since it's only a belief, e.g. not a physical phenomenon that can be empirically tested), Jesus created the world to give our souls the opportunity to further perfect themselves. While on earth, in our limited earthly bodies, we experience trials destined by our soul's agreement while in heaven, that we do not remember the reason for in our earthly intellect. So everything really proves to be much of a challenge and opportunity for growth.
Quirinus. think of how a sword is made. it is thrust time and again into the coals until it is white hot, then it is taken out and beaten, this continues until it is ready to be sharpened. like a sword, we are thrust into adversity time and again, and taken out and beaten until we are ready to be sharpened. we are tried and purified. if we keep our faith in our GOD we grow stronger with each trial. we should rejoice at these trials because GOD would not waste HIS time on one who HE knows will be destroyed in the end.
Jesus created nothing; he was just a human being; he did not claim to have created anything in the universe.
DS. Is it not true that ELOHIM means GODS? Does it not say that the SONS of GOD saw the daughters of men, and KNEW them. There are more mysteries than you know the answers to. I do agree that Paul was a Roman infiltrator, and the cheif reason the church has been led astray.
Paul was a Roman infiltrator. That's a good one . . . you are a creative thinker . . . that is top notch fiction. The Church is always being led astray except where we happen to be preaching from.
Elohim is the plural of the word God. So it would be Sons of Gods...
I am not sure I would call Paul a Roman infiltrator. He was a Pharisee that was a Roman Citizen.
But I would agree that his message for the gentiles wasn't exactly what was being taught by the orginal apostles of Jesus. He even stated that he preferred teaching in places that had never heard of the message of the Christ before. He also stated that he got his message from the Sprictures and revealed by the arisen Christ. This is an interesting concept, many think Jesus was killed in 33CE. But, by Pauls own writing we can determine he converted to Christian in 32CE. Converted, three years later met with Peter and James, then 14 years later was present at the Church council held in 49CE.*********
Elohyim does mean Gods but it is not plural as you image, it is singular yet duel. It means God with two attributes. The duel God, not more than one God
No there are not mysteries that I do not understand or know the answers to, but it is too deep to explain on the forums,it must be a grand thing to know everything there is about GOD. i believe you are the first person to manage it. congrats.
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I know the Hebrew language and what it means.
I thought you were done with me. I mean, you saw Jesus when you were three, so you would think you wouldn't have an egoi am human, i struggle with my ego every day. knowing the hebrew language does not mean you know all of the mysteries of GOD...it is rather arrogant to claim you do.
tell me something...do you believe CHRIST is the Son of GOD manifested in the flesh?******************
I believe Yahshua was excepted as God's son when he became the person he was meant to be.
I do not believe he was divine.
To be divine means you are without limits
God was manifested in the flesh through his Holy Spirit which is God's power
Knowing Hebrew helps you to understand the deep mysteries of Godthen am i right in believing you discount the new testament as being valid?
1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.__________________
I do not believe in Paul's writings.
But Christ or Christo is the Greek word for Messiah which means the anointed.
The Spirit brought the anointing in the flesh.
So far you have compared me to Satan and now you are saying because I don't interpret those verses as you do that now I am the Anti-Christ.
Now when I tell you exactly what I think of you, don't run away holding your ears. What's fair is fair.
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Isaiah 44:
5. One shall say, I am the LORD's; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the LORD, and surname himself by the name of Israel.
6. Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
7. And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.
8. Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Isaiah 63:
11. Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?
Ezekiel 36:
27. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.just because i said even satan knew scripture but that doesnt mean he understood it does not mean i am comparing you to satan...i am simply stating a fact that says knowing scripture by heart does not equal understanding them. as for being anti-CHRIST...well, anti means against, so if you do not accept CHRIST as the Son of the Living GOD, if you reject HIS divine nature, then you must be against HIM...HE said if you are not for ME, you are against ME. CHRIST is/was not just a man blessed by GOD and called HIS Son. HE was with GOD from the beginning and took on the mantle of human flesh in order to fulfill GODs plan.
If Jesus said it; why not all the gospel writers make a mention of it.
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I am not against Yahshua I just don't believe he is God and therefore cannot be divine.
It doesn't say he was Divine, show me where.
I was raised in the Christian church and got out when I realized they taught lies as the word of God. I know what you guys believe and just because you think it says one thing doesn't mean it's true.
I see Apostle Paul and the Christian church as the Anti-Christeven if i showed you, which i have, you would simply state that that is not what the scripture said...say what you will, you are blind to the truth and you prove it by leaning on your own self wisdom. i have allowed myself to fall into this argument, against my better judgement. see i am human and i know when i am doing something wrong and still i do it. i dislike arguing and yet i sometimes cant help it when faced with such stubborn blindness to a false belief concerning CHRIST. you and i will never see eye to eye nor aparently can we agree to disagree. from here out i will do my utmost best not to respond to any more comments from you.
- Deborah Sextonposted 12 years ago0
Hebrew suffixes
yim Duel Plural. A duel plural describes something that comes in pairs but are one unit, such as eyes. There are certain things that are always written in dual plural. i.e. God, sky, and face
When describing God as Duel, it is mercy and justice, two attributes. He is merciful but He also executes judgement that is not always felt as mercy. Come on all! Boy, I take a six month vacation from HP and what do I find when I come back? The exact same religious pride that is evident in each and every like thread. A great many of you know my faith and stance on things from threads past.
Do you all want to know the greatest mystery out there? Are you sure you want to know it? Are you prepared to hear it? Here we go and in simple terms....
The greatest mystery is the mystery of our own individual journey of life. Let's keep it simple shall we? Let's not talk about afterlife or before life. I'm talking about your own existence and the journey of learning and tempering of ego and pride. Drop the masks for a moment and think about it. Isn't that what it really comes down to?
We are all different and therefore each of us express faith in different manners. There's nothing wrong with it. Yes, in my chosen faith we believe in proselyting and extending ideas and doctrines to others giving them the liberty and freedom to choose in favor or against what they are taught. In the end as long as we are all accountable for our own actions, thoughts and learnings we should be humble enough to accept a neighbor of a different style of worship.
I really couldn't give a bucket of poop how educated a person is. If that person fails to daily express actionable charity and compassion then they have missed the entire reason and purpose of life itself. If a person claims to be learned yet fails to be tolerant and understanding both online and off then that person has failed to integrate the intended outcomes of personal salvation.
I've been struggling for the past few years bridging the gaps between two local faiths that have been historic rivals for generations. Through these efforts I've seen miracles happen by the actions of many. Peace can happen but only through religious tolerance and understanding.
This is the great mystery! The journey of life! Be happy!!
- Deborah Sextonposted 12 years ago0
Psalms 22:
10. I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
In Context Psalms 22
1 My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.
2 O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer; And by night, but I have no rest.
3 Yet You are holy, O You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.
4 In You our fathers trusted; They trusted and You delivered them.
5 To You they cried out and were delivered; In You they trusted and were not disappointed.
6 But I am a worm and not a man, A reproach of men and despised by the people.
7 All who see me sneer at me; They separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying,
8 “Commit yourself to the LORD; let Him deliver him; Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.”
9 Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb; You made me trust when upon my mother’s breasts.
10 Upon You I was cast from birth; You have been my God from my mother’s womb. just how many times do you need to hear HIM say it? it is not needful for it to be repeated in every other gospel. it was said once, that is enough.
Did Jesus whisper it in the ears of Matthew only? If Jesus would have said it publicly then every gospel writer should have mentioned it.
ok...i see that you believe that since HE said it only once, and in your opinion HE said it in private...it apparently does not count. i am sorry for you.
John 12:39-41
King James Version (KJV)
39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.___________
He didn't blind me nor did he harden my heart.
I constantly cried out for truth and Matthew 7:10 saya
"if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?"
No He'll give him a fish.
Better get the mote out of your own eye before trying to extract one from other people's eye.
Every way you have judged me, is really you.
Most Christians, whether they realize it or not, do not and never have followed Christ, and this includes most who sincerely yet ignorantly claim otherwise. Instead, all they care about is following their church's teachings regardless of how contrary to Scripture those teachings may be. It is a terrible yet common tragedy that Christians the world over blindly, flippantly, and usually unknowingly discard the faith-example and teachings of the very person - Christ - whom they falsely claim to follow.i guess its a good thing that i do not attend any church and am not affiliated with any organized religion then, huh. you are right about most christians not following CHRISTs example. i am called cult because i believe in obedience to GOD and CHRIST.
you know, i dont have a problem with non believers, they have a GOD given right to reject GOD. however, i DO have a problem with people who claim to know GOD yet discount CHRIST as divine, they are full of false teachings. CHRIST was divine in nature, and there is no getting around that. to deny that is to reject HIM...in fact CHRIST speaks about the error of denying HIM...
Matthew 10:32-33
King James Version (KJV)
32Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.****************
I have not denied Yahshua, just that he is divine.
Show me scripture.
Just so you know, it means nothing to me if you have a problem with what I believe.
I have to follow scripture and not you.
You are Christian, that is your religion.
- Deborah Sextonposted 12 years ago0
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What Yahshua said:
He always spoke of God and not of himself.
John 12:49
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
God did the works and not Yahshua
John 14:10
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.Deborah > He always spoke of God and not of himself <
"Himself" is God.
. . . if by "of God" you mean all Jesus said was from God or in accord with God, your statement is correct - but if by "of God" you mean that Jesus never spoke about Himself you are observably mistaken . . .
"Who do men say that I am"
"I am the way, the truth, and the life"
'Before Abraham was I am"
"I am the light of the world"
"No one comes to the Father except through Me"
"I am the gate; whoever enters through Me will be saved"
"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away."
"Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest"
"Whoever believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."
"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in Me will never die"
"You are of this world; I am not of this world"
"When a man believes in Me, he does not believe in Me only, but in the one who sent Me"
"He who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me."
"The work of God is this: to believe in the one He has sent."
"If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I came from God"
"Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father."
etc, etc, etc . . .**************
In all of those he was still speaking of God, and spoke what God told him to speak.
I didn't say it Yahshua did.
God tried to get Moses to be his mouth too.
Am I suppose to say "because Mickey says it's not true I can no longer believe it"
Or believe what Yahshua says and what God showed me?
I'll choose God and Yahshua over what you believe.Deborah > In all of those he was still speaking of God <
"Who do men say that I am"
"I am the way"
'Before Abraham was I am"
"I am the light of the world"
"I am the gate"
"My words will never pass away."
"Come to Me . . . I will give you rest"
"I am the resurrection and the life."
"You are of this world; I am not of this world"
Again, He is God, so yes, in all those he was speaking about God. . . but He is certainly speaking of Himself in those remarks, right?
Deborah > Am I suppose to say "because Mickey says it's not true I can no longer believe it" <
oh please no - do you want me to simply drop my own understanding of things and adopt your as my own when you speak? If you imagine such a disposition is more likely the case for one identifying as "Christian" than others then you have an ill-informed notion of authentic Christianity.
- Deborah Sextonposted 12 years ago0
Based upon the overwhelming evidence in Scripture, while on earth as Messiah, Yahshua was truly a 100 percent man, versus the traditional Christian God-man, and in that respect was no different from any other human.
He literally EARNED his glory through perfect, sinless obedience to YHWH God, and because of his efforts the door is open, with him as the door (live life as he did), for others to potentially merit eternal life.
Where he is unique is that he, UNlike other humans, was/is a FULLY EMPOWERED agent ("shaliach," or "sent one") of God. Contrary to the commonly held erroneous Christian teaching, his sinlessness is NOT because he was born free of some sort of mystical "inherited" sin. Yahshua could have sinned but chose not to.
I reject and oppose false traditional Christian teachings that force Yahshua to be "God" (the intent of such manmade unscriptural doctrines is idolatry)You don't understand the authentic Christian teaching - you say ~
"while on earth as Messiah, Yahshua was truly a 100 percent man, versus the traditional Christian God-man" - but the "traditional Christian" teaching is that Jesus was and is 100% man (born of a woman, the 2nd Adam, dead at 33, etc). Then you say ~
"Contrary to the commonly held erroneous Christian teaching, his sinlessness is NOT because he was born free of some sort of mystical "inherited" sin. Yahshua could have sinned but chose not to" - but the Christian teaching is not that man stands guilty of sin that was mystically transfered to him from another and we fully believe that Jesus willfully chose not to sin.
May I ask you this: Jesus stood perfectly righteous before His Father because He lived His life without sinning, He was accepted by the Father because He was sinless - no one can be accepted by God without that same manner of righteousness, without that same manner of sinlessness; by what means do you assert that any of us accomplish acceptance before God, according to your understanding how do we achieve acceptance before God?***************
No. Christians do not teach that Yahshua was 100% human. They (you) teach that he was God who came to earth in Flesh.
He was not even 0.5% God, he was all human.
How are we to be accepted by God? Love him with your whole heart (1st Commandment)
Love others, keep his commandments
Please don't say we can't live a sinless life. Yahshua came to show us we can and must. That is an excuse adopted by those who wish to sin.M >> the "traditional Christian" teaching is that Jesus was and is 100% man <<
D > No. Christians do not teach that Yahshua was 100% human <
I'm not trying to be tricky here, and I do know what I'm talking about, but I understand your confusion; we are talking about things beyond our experience, ideas we can only try our best to articulate but our language leaves us wanting. Historic, Biblical Christianity does indeed teach that Jesus is 100% man - not mostly man but sort of God, not 50/50, but 100% man. The difficulty for non-believers is, we also teach Jesus is 100% God. Since the earliest church councils debated the use of "homoousios" or "homoousian" as more accurately expressing the nature of His being, we still struggle, not with the truth, but with the expression of of Jesus' nature.
The Bible, nor Jesus Himself, spell it out in didactic formulas, but both (the Bible and Jesus) make two points very clear - Jesus was fully man and fully God. There are passages that clearly represent Jesus as a man, yet there are also passages that clearly present Jesus as God - historic, Biblical Christianity does not try to concoct a scheme where this can be true, we simply accept it as true . . . because it's what God reveals in His word. Jesus is not only man, or half and half, or any manner of parts combined - Jesus is both fully man and fully God.
M >> by what means do you assert that any of us accomplish acceptance before God, according to your understanding how do we achieve acceptance before God? <<
D > Love him with your whole heart (1st Commandment)
Love others, keep his commandments <
Now, you ask "Please don't say we can't live a sinless life" but the Bible is clear that we can't . . . the purpose of the law was never as a path to holiness and to God. How holy, how perfect, how godly is the God whose ways can be mimicked by men? If WE can obey God's law, then what kind of a god IS God? This is why Jesus was in relentless conflict with the Jews of His day, because they taught that the point and purpose of the law was to win God's favor through obedience - and that was never the point and purpose of the law.
You say "Yahshua came to show us we can and must (live without sin)" but that is not at all why he came - He came to accomplish an atonement for sin. The blood of goats and bulls never cleansed anyone's sin - it was preparing the way for the true sacrifice. Jesus didn't come to teach us how to be good - He came because we cannot be good enough . . . look at how He speaks about the law ~
“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment"
. . . and . . .
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart".
No law can be given that rules over the heart. Jesus is telling us that, while you may follow the letter of the law and not actually murder someone or actually commit adultery, you're missing the point - following the letter of the law does not save anyone, the law was given to demonstrate to us the corruption of our heart, to display before us our need of a Savior . . . and we foolishly imagine that we can actually keep God's law flawlessly enough to earn His acceptance.
Jesus came and kept the law perfectly because it is His law, because He is God . . . He didn't keep the law to teach us how - He kept the law because we cannot. Jesus is the fulfillment of the promise in the garden. Only God can keep God's law and only God can forgive others for breaking His law - this is why He was arrested and executed, because the Jews were very clear about who Jesus was claiming to be . . . you cannot have Jesus as merely a good teacher, He didn't come to teach us the way to God - He IS the way to God, He is the God/man, the only mediator between God and man. God took upon Himself human nature and now He puts His own divine Spirit with us, this is the only way to true unity and eternal life - struggling to be good enough for God is an arrogant lost cause . . . trusting in His atonement and resting in His forgiveness is not an excuse to sin - imagining you can keep His law so perfectly that you are united to Him is excusing the sin that you know you yet struggle with.it is not unique thing...since writers of jesus's life seems to think not much different from other writers of those and previous era , we have 100% man and 100% god concept...
Jesus was only a human being; he never claimed to be a god or son of god in literal terms; he created nothing and died a natural and peaceful death.
exactly all considered prophets are humans and since they where humans they erred and in their error rose religion...so religion too must die natural death so that world can live in peace...
wow! i had no idea being tortured on a cross was considered dying a peaceful death. FYI...CHRIST suffered far more than physical torture when the worlds sin came upon HIM effectively separating HIM from HIS Father for the first time in HIS existence. only someone who has a relationship, a true one, can possibly begin to understand what that feels like. lets see you being tortured on a cross then you can tell me it is peaceful...i doubt i would believe you even then.
*********************
I was raised in the Christian religion and I understand more than you think I do.
Only Paul taught we could NOT live a sinless life, not Yahshua. I choose to believe Yahshua
I am a non-believer? In your religion and that's allDeborah, my point is not to charge with you not knowing what you're talking about - my point is that many (in today's 21st century N.America) own a very flawed understanding of historic Biblical Christianity. I don't at all doubt (in fact I would have been comfortable to assume) that you were raised in a Christian religious home. The fussing about Paul confiscating Jesus' teaching to construct his own self-serving new 'Christian' religion is as old as Jesus and Paul themselves - it simply does not stand against honest, thorough investigation.
Peter, chosen specifically by Jesus Himself to lead the 12 advanced the grace/faith based teaching of Jesus, apart from the law, long before Paul showed-up. And the Jerusalem council, those disciples of Jesus who He personally chose and trained, approved of Paul's teaching and encouraged him in his work. The confusion on this comes from two missteps; first, the arrogant insistence that we can keep God's holy law perfectly. Secondly, many mistake Jesus' ministry of sacrifice and a ministry of teaching - but He tells us Himself that what He says and does is in view of an atonement yet to be accomplished, and that after His work is finished the Holy Spirit will come and explain it all more perfectly. Jesus didn't come to teach or explain the way to god - He came to be the way to God.
Consider this; what is all the talk about faith and believing if the way to God is actually about obedience to the law? When Jesus spoke privately with Nicodemus, a righteous keeper of the law, what did He tell him? 'Keep up the good work' or 'Do even better', etc? No, Jesus told him “Unless a man is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God". What does that mean, why would Jesus say something like that if it's all about keeping the law?
Jesus would not speak clearly and directly until His time had come. Again and Again He would say "My time has not yet come" as He camouflaged His words in parables and symbols, etc. But He would say things like “No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine . . . apart from me you can do nothing.” . . . that is not saying 'you must keep the law' it's saying 'you cannot keep the law unless you are united to Me through faith'. Jesus doesn't teach our salvation is up to us and our goodness - He teaches our inability to keep the law and so our need of a Savior.
Deborah, I understand you choose to reject the idea that Jesus came to save us because we are without hope being unable to keep God's law perfectly, I am not trying to convince you that I am right and you are wrong, I'm not trying to persuade you to follow what I say rather than whatever it is you prefer to believe - I am only wanting to be sure that authentic Christianity is rightly presented and that the corrupted 'Christina' religion that you and so many have experienced is not advanced as genuine Christianity.
I'm not interested to demean what you believe nor to assert that 'my religion is better than your religion' - I am only wanting to see the authentic historic Biblical Christianity that I do believe accurately presented.
Even the atheists have so much interest in religion that they write on religious forum as they have nothing to offer; so atheism has no future; religion has a bright future.
- u mean humans have dark future?...that is only way religion can have bright future...religion enslaves minds and till it exist humans wont be free to think...they always would have some one thousands of years ago who has decided how to live...thats slavery...thats what religion sells in name of after life which not even those who formed concept knew exist....
- Deborah Sextonposted 12 years ago0
Mickey, God is a merciful God. All you have to do is forget everything you know, and ask God for the truth. Do it with a sincere and open heart, and He will show you and tear down all those man made doctrines.
Then you can find true salvation.
Many BlessingsD > All you have to do is forget everything you know, and ask God for the truth <
But Deborah, I am like the poster-boy for exactly what you suggest I ought to do. I was not raised in a religious home, we never when to church or ever talked about God. In my mid/late teens I began reading the Bible on my own . . . no one was trying to convert me, I was merely interested in esoteric poetry and metaphysical ideas, I began to peruse the Dhammapada, Koran, Bhagavad Gita, Apocrypha, as well as the Bible, etc. I was reading these books like I might read Jules Verne or a Green Lantern comic, etc - I was not troubled or even looking for truth.
Eventually I left all other material behind and was reading only the Bible - it struck me as wholly different from all other literature . . . yet, while I understood the sense of each statement and could follow the point of each portion I read, I couldn't 'get' the overarching meaning, I was missing the reason and consequence of the point of it all. When I read a passage that said that God is a Spirit and we are mortal and that to understand His word you need His Spirit, I did just what you suggest, I asked God to show me His truth.
Stunningly, life-changingly, I could instantly grasp the truth behind what I was reading, and all that I had read suddenly came back to me falling perfectly into place - the truth and the beauty and the unity of the Bible was instantly clear to me. Deborah, I did nothing but study the Bible for over a year, and then began to research church history and then theology. What I understand the Bible to present as the truth was not given me by man, I had no church doctrine defining truth for me, I didn't have to 'forget everything I knew' because I didn't know anything - God revealed His truth to me directly in His word through His Spirit. I'm telling you, if the best course is "All you have to do is forget everything you know, and ask God for the truth. Do it with a sincere and open heart, and He will show you and tear down all those man made doctrines" then I am your poster-boy.
You know, what's interesting about you folks who want to claim Jesus but reject Paul is that Peter, Jesus' handpicked leader for after His own departure, cautions us that Paul will be difficult for even Christians to understand and embrace but that God is using him to reveal the truth ~
"just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures."
The men who crucified Jesus were men who rejected Jesus' teaching that no one could be saved through obedience to the law, they killed Him because He presented Himself as the Savior who saves through faith apart from the law. It's a gigantic irony of history and a evidence of man's blindness that those who reject Paul but say they follow Jesus promote the very idea that Jesus stood guilty of condemning and was executed for opposing.
But, regardless of how you are I reason these ideas out in our minds, you didn't address any of the very valid points I presented you with ~
1. Peter, chosen specifically by Jesus Himself to lead the 12 advanced the grace/faith based teaching of Jesus, apart from the law, long before Paul showed-up.
2. The Jerusalem council, those disciples of Jesus who He personally chose and trained, approved of Paul's teaching and encouraged him in his work.
3. What is all the talk about faith and believing if the way to God is actually about obedience to the law?
4. When Jesus spoke privately with Nicodemus, a righteous keeper of the law, what did He tell him? 'Keep up the good work' or 'Do even better', etc? No, Jesus told him “Unless a man is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God". What does that mean, why would Jesus say something like that if it's all about keeping the law?
. . . how do the doctrines of the men you follow make sense of these observably contrary Jesus-based truths?I follow no man. I follow the meaning. Why should I follow that which I hold as true? I hold respect for the teaching and therefor, I act accordingly. It does not mean I follow anything other than my own life and the truths I have gained from it.
We all do the best we can, with what we know. It is better to remain a seeker, than settle on a false foundation.
A tree must have many roots and none too shallow.
If you read Genesis God spoke all things into creation until he decided to create man, then God and Jesus created man and God breathed life into man through the Holy Spirit. All members of the Triune God were present during creation though at all times.
- Deborah Sextonposted 12 years ago0
James 2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments
1 John 2:3
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2:6
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1 John 3:22
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
God in the flesh
Luke 4:1
And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,Accept the one who is weak in faith, but not to pass judgement on his opinions . . . one man sees a certain day as holy, another sees each day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. (Somewhere in Romans - probably 14)
**********
I am sharing because I want people to know. Where am I judging ?
Also quoting Paul means nothing to me, since he was a liar acording to him teaching the opposite of YahshuaI wasn't insinuating that you personally were judging, although I see where you got the idea. I was just pointing out that we are seeing a lot of varying opinion, and I find it remarkable that the bible dealt with that. It is also put in a way that is surprising. It deals with issues of the day. Which is right? The answer is broader than one would expect.
I don't know why I hooked it to your statement as if it were a rebuttal. I am right brained and impulsive. The thought was triggered, but not by a direct path.
Now as far as Paul being a liar, you might want to tone down the rhetoric. I can handle it, but I have been around more than most. Lord, knows. Besides, who else in the bible was a lying no good subversive influence? Just Paul? What about Ezekiel? That guy was a nut case!
I think you are misinterpreting what Jesus was getting at in those verses. He was stirring up the Pharisees and claiming diety for the most part. He was not setting a doctrine of salvation by works. Luckily, salvation doesn't depend on logical understanding of God. It is the work on the cross that saves.
Your devotion is admirable and even commendable. Too many people focus on the Epistles almost to the point of exclusion of Jesus's words. If you are focused on Jesus to the exclusion of Paul's teaching, then you still can't go wrong. He said everything you need to know. The rest is for people who want to know what the rules are. Unfortunately, there are more rules in our head than in Paul's teaching. Paul is alright, take my word.
You have no idea of my experience with this verse (and those around it). How, as a new believer, I got inundated from every direction by different sects. The nuances and dynamics of American Christianity were never of any interest to me. I got a crash course. It would make a funny short story. It is hard to make a point from that verse alone. The original author said more.
Here is the bible according to Chip:
Faith without works is not faith at all, so it can't save. Real faith always results in works. It is not the works that save . . . it is the river of life that flows as a result of faith (God's love). The works are put into motion by the current of the river. No one can brag about their faith, because faith is a gift from God. You don't muster it up . . . God does. If anyone lacks faith, they can ask for it and it will be released to them. If you don't want it, sorry about your luck.****************
Whatever you believe
I never once said you don't need faith
But
James 2
18. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.Sorry if I misinterpreted. It seemed to me that you were making a case for salvation by works. Why do you say "but" before the verse? The verse reinforces that real faith produces works. It doesn't contradict anything. Is English your first language?
This reminds me of when I first heard any of this. There were battling factions saynig the same thing in different words and thinking they were in oppoisite camps. What it boiled down to was, "Those guys over there go to Church on the wrong day, eat the wrong food, say the wrong prayer, etc." They needed Paul to straighten them out. He did in Romans 14.
. . . a humble, direct, and intimate account of just what Paul, Peter, John, and Jesus taught . . . and what the historic Christian faith presents as the truth from Ignatius & Polycarp through Ambrose & Augustine on to Calvin & Luther to Newton & Edwards to today - there is plenty within Christendom that is far from Scriptural, but there has always been those who God blesses and uses to reveal His truth.
Faith without works is no real faith at all, just as an apple tree cannot truthfully be counted an apple tree if it produces no apples and just as if it is a genuine apple tree it will produce apples . . . our faith does not save us, it evidences the grace by which God has already saved us. And God doesn't grant us gifts if we have enough and just the right kind of faith - faith itself is a gift from God.
Again, you've offered here a contemporary, and in your own words, presentation of just what Paul, Peter, John, James, Jesus and all of
Scripture declare to be the truth.************
I see you are a Pauline doctrine follower. Faith does NOT bring about (result in) works that is what Paul taught. He said it was Abraham's faith
James Knew this and came along and told them the truth.
James 2
21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22. Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
It was Abraham's WORKS that showed his faith. If he had not preformed the works, either people wouldn't have known he had faith, or they would have thought he didn't.
. . . again, you've not at all addressed the factually Biblical points I've asked you about. You've introduced points that (I assume) you imagine stand in conflict with the points I've asked you about but that is not responding to the points already set forth, it's merely redirecting to other points you are more comfortable dealing with - I will be happy to offer my own understanding of the points you introduce here after you respond directly to these ~
1. Peter, chosen specifically by Jesus Himself to lead the 12 advanced the grace/faith based teaching of Jesus, apart from the law, long before Paul showed-up.
2. The Jerusalem council, those disciples of Jesus who He personally chose and trained, approved of Paul's teaching and encouraged him in his work.
3. What is all the talk about faith and believing if the way to God is actually about obedience to the law?
4. When Jesus spoke privately with Nicodemus, a righteous keeper of the law, what did He tell him? 'Keep up the good work' or 'Do even better', etc? No, Jesus told him “Unless a man is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God". What does that mean, why would Jesus say something like that if it's all about keeping the law?
. . . how do the doctrines of the men you follow make sense of these observably contrary Jesus-based truths?You miss the deeper meaning of the statement. It means that the laws of God are not meant to be understood by the feeble minds of men. We do not understand the laws of God for they are intangible to us. They are the laws of a higher meaning, but only few are meant to see them.
Excuse me, but in those passages, it is the Law delivered to the Hebrews that he is speaking of. You are talking wisely of different laws. As far as the laws you are talking about . . . who can argue? As far as the Law that MickeySr is talking about . . . who can argue? It is like comparing the law of gravity to law against murder. One is on the books at the courthouse, the other is incomprehensible although we see it in action every day.
Too much flippin' time on his hands....idle hands are the devil's workplace.
Amen, brother Druid Dude. I can take correction. I have a ton of work to do. I am not idle, but distracted from the task at hand. I get the drift. Back to work with me. Thanks for the quote from Benjamin Franklin.
mischeviousme > You miss the deeper meaning of the statement <
What statement?What Jesus said about God's laws. They are from the teacher to the student, so that the student will teach others. "Be still and know that I am God". He was speaking of the proverbial "I", as in you. The laws pertain to all of us and are meant to enlighten, not entrap.
How do you explain the tons of laws that observably don't 'enlighten' at all? What is 'enlightening about not being permitted to eat shellfish, pork, rabbits, or certain birds? How is not being permitted to shave but being required to grow a beard 'enlightening'? How does a prohibition against mixing fabrics like linen and woolen to make garments 'enlighten' anyone? By the time Jesus came the Jews, those God gave His law to, had drawn the most ludicrous rules of conduct from the law, they obviously where not enlighten by there much attention to the law.
The point and purpose of the law was to proclaim God's holiness and to demonstrate to us the futility of trying to justify ourselves through 'good works' to a perfect, holy, divine God. It is the greatest mark of our foolishness and arrogance to imagine that God judges us by our conduct and finds anyone He can fellowship with.
Which came first, the law or the promise? The covenant or the law?
*********************
I didn't know you ask me anything. Your posts are long and go in circles.
Why can't you give a list of questions. Short and to the point.
1.
2.
3.
4.D > I didn't know you ask me anything. Your posts are long and go in circles <
I am sorry if posts are confusing for you, I will try to be more brief and direct (though, I wonder how you own any confidence in your capacity to understand ancient texts translated from the dead language of a culture so unlike your own if my own lack of directness gives you difficulty).
I'm asking you this; if salvation is by obedience to the law and Jesus' purpose was to teach us that and demonstrate that saving path of obedience, and Paul's teaching was totally contrary to Jesus', then how do you make sense of these observably contrary Jesus-based truths?
1. Peter, chosen specifically by Jesus Himself to lead the 12, advanced the grace/faith based teaching of Jesus, apart from the law, long before Paul showed-up.
2. The Jerusalem council, those disciples of Jesus who He personally chose and trained, approved of Paul's teaching and encouraged him in his work.
3. What is all the talk about faith and believing if the way to God is actually about obedience to the law?
4. When Jesus spoke privately with Nicodemus, a righteous keeper of the law, what did He tell him? 'Keep up the good work' or 'Do even better', etc? No, Jesus told him “Unless a man is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God". What does that mean, why would Jesus say something like that if it's all about keeping the law?***************
Stop putting words in my mouth!!!
Your posts do not confuse me.
They are long and boring and say the same thing over and over. A Third of the way down, I lose my desire to read them.
Saying that I'm confused when I didn't say that, is the way most Christians interpret the Bible. Listen to what people are really saying.Deborah, I am sorry, it was not my intention to put words in your mouth . . . and, I'm not sure why your demeanor with me is so belligerent - I understand we see things differently, but I am not counting you an enemy but am trying to understand what it is you believe, why is it that you appear so hostile towards me? You said you didn't know I was asking you a question because my posts are too long and go in circles - I took that (I think reasonably so) to indicate that my manner of expression was confusing to you. I wasn't trying to offend you, I was apologizing if my posts were confusing - is there a reason I'm not aware of why our discussion has to be so combative?.
So, numbered and to the point I'm asking you this; if salvation is by obedience to the law and Jesus' purpose was to teach us that and demonstrate that saving path of obedience, and Paul's teaching was totally contrary to Jesus', then how do you make sense of these observably contrary Jesus-based truths?
1. Peter, chosen specifically by Jesus Himself to lead the 12, advanced the grace/faith based teaching of Jesus, apart from the law, long before Paul showed-up.
2. The Jerusalem council, those disciples of Jesus who He personally chose and trained, approved of Paul's teaching and encouraged him in his work.
3. What is all the talk about faith and believing if the way to God is actually about obedience to the law?
4. When Jesus spoke privately with Nicodemus, a righteous keeper of the law, what did He tell him? 'Keep up the good work' or 'Do even better', etc? No, Jesus told him “Unless a man is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God". What does that mean, why would Jesus say something like that if it's all about keeping the law?We are not worthy of such a lofty position. We may live many lives before we can attain the right frame of mind or we never see it at all. The real question should be; How do I know that I am ready or worthy of such a thing? The answers really aren't up to us, we just have to observe and act accordingly.
I tend to agree with all sides of the belief coin. I see everyone as being vallidated in the way they choose to think. That is why we have brains, to think and to form opinions and have observations that help us live better lives. We must at some point give up on the whole "My idea, your idea" thing, or else the idiology will lead to something negative, as it always has.
***************
You don't have to read mine since I addressed only one to you.
Deborah, God loves you. Jesus loves you and that's what matters.
- Deborah Sextonposted 12 years ago0
Regardless of what anyone thinks or believes.
The Interpretation Of The New Testament Bible Says:
What it says about Yahshua (Jesus)
He is the "son of Elohim (God)," but the meaning of "son of God" is misrepresented by those who promote Yahshua as "God the Son" - a phrase not found in Scripture.
He is the "son of man" (son of adam), which points to his role as the representative of the kingdom of "Israel" and/or as Messiah (Dan. 7:13,14).
He is the "sent one" In Hebrew it is called shaliach, the unique agent of YHWH (God).
He is the High Priest mediating between YHWH and mankind.
He is deceptively represented as God himself.
He is the "lamb of YHWH." Revelation chapter 5 CLEARLY shows that "lamb" is NOT God! The distinction is obvious.
He lived the life which pleased God and was our example. We are to walk as he walked. He had faith, loved the God of Israel, showed love to everyone and kept the commandments.
He is the one chosen by YHWH to be the King of Israel to rule from his God-given throne in Jerusalem in the coming Messianic Kingdom.
He learned and demonstrated uniquely pure obedience to YHWH's true (NOT Rabbinic) eternal instructions (torah), thus becoming perfect through his own efforts as a 100 percent man, a glorious and most magnificent accomplishment that those who promote him as God erase from history and from the minds of their deceived followers.
It is because of this perfect obedience Yahshua became the one who brought us perfect faith, and merited the unique and supremely exalted status YHWH has given him.
It is ONLY through walking as Yahshua that one can obtain true salvation.
Even those who may merit eternal life without acknowledging Yahshua will still achieve it because of his accomplishments and YHWH's mercy.
Yahshua, as the personal agent of YHWH - speaks as YHWH's fully empowered emissary.
According To The New Testament Interpretation
Yahshua will return at the time appointed to finally fulfill the promises of a worldwide "Kingdom of God" ON EARTH (not in "heaven" as Christianity erroneously teaches, thus confusing and frustrating the actual "gospel of the Kingdom" message)!What is "The Interpretation Of The New Testament Bible", is that a commentary or specific translation?
**********************
I should have said Gospels.
I don't believe Paul's writings are a part of the bible, just that man made a bad decision in including them.
I already posted what the Gospels are about, the Kingdom of God. Yahshua as our example who he was and his teachings.
If you can't understand that, I can't help youI am familiar with the notion that Jesus was merely a teacher & example, I can understand the idea behind that - you said "The Interpretation Of The New Testament Bible Says" with "The Interpretation Of The New Testament Bible" in all caps and saying "says" not 'it seems to me' or 'I think', etc, so I thought you were quoting from some commentary or particular translation, etc.
Do you count John & James & Peter's NT writings as properly included in the Bible as Scripture? And, do you count all 4 gospels as properly counted as gospels and rightly included in the NT?
- Deborah Sextonposted 12 years ago0
The simple truth is that the MAJORITY of verses in the Scriptures, even in the New Testament, show the Trinity or any other concept of a "God incarnate Christ" to be utterly false; therefore, those that promote that Messiah is God purposely overlook the weight of Scriptural evidence because they must in order to promote their blasphemous teachings. It is for this same reason traditional Christian and counterfeit Messianic leaders prefer to promote a "mysterious" interpretation, since they realize once people grasp the simplicity of the actual Truth the eyes of many will be opened to the REAL Messiah and REAL God
Jesus said that he came in His Father's name, yet (we) many did not believe.
There will come another in "his own name", him they will receive.
This one is referred to as the anti-christ. He will have many followers, but they will not be of God. They will receive a mark, as a sign of allegiance to him. The Bible refers to them as condemned. So, please choose carefully whom you will pledge allegiance to.
I have already made my choice.I come from my fathers name. Does that make me the anti-christ? I have stated time and again, the teachings of Jesus were in the form of metaphore, most of us were not in class long enough to read beyond the words and we assumed that it was all litteral. I will not contest you however, for it may be absolutely true for you and I believe that that is enough. I cannot tell you that you are wrong, it would make me look like all the other know it all a-holes out there and I am not one of them.
I am adult that has realized that what you believe is what you believe and who am I to disagree.Right on. It is one thing to express a belief, and another to demand that it is accepted. There is a certain peace in knowing that we don't know much compared to what there is to know. Martial arts is not a religion, but the discipline can lead to natural wisdom.
I have 2 types of student. One that wants to learn martial arts and the other that enjoys the philosophy. I have had followers and I have had students. I prefer the student, I don't have to answer all of their questions for them.
That's rich. I was a vocational instructor. There is such a thing as a dumb question. Sometimes, I was too dumb to answer the good ones.
If I answered all questions all the time, none would learn and would not learn for themselve's. They would want to learn only what made me happy and that is not the idea.
******************
I have, to God and not some idol.
Paul was the first of the anti-christ and those who believe in the Pauline doctrine.
Yahshua said at the time, the anti-christ are already in the world. It's not a future thing. It is a past, present, and future thing.An interesting take on scripture (twisted, as it is).
Paul died preaching Christ, and him crucified!
Paul also taught on the anti-christ, and how he will be revealed, and who he is, etc.
Perhaps you ought to take heed to the message, rather than "shoot the messenger".******************
Try reading the bible with spiritual eyes.
Paul taught against everything Yahshua and the Apostles did.
That's why you have to read scripture for yourself.
There was suppose to be only 12 Apostles, not 13. And they had to be students Of Yahshua while he was here and they had to remain with him until he ascended into heaven.
Paul did none of that.
He told 3 lies about his conversion
Try reading Acts where they chose the Apostle to replace Judas.
Is this post in response to my asking you; if salvation is by obedience to the law and Jesus' purpose was to teach us that and demonstrate that saving path of obedience, and Paul's teaching was totally contrary to Jesus', then how do you make sense of these observably contrary Jesus-based truths?
1. Peter, chosen specifically by Jesus Himself to lead the 12, advanced the grace/faith based teaching of Jesus, apart from the law, long before Paul showed-up.
2. The Jerusalem council, those disciples of Jesus who He personally chose and trained, approved of Paul's teaching and encouraged him in his work.
3. What is all the talk about faith and believing if the way to God is actually about obedience to the law?
4. When Jesus spoke privately with Nicodemus, a righteous keeper of the law, what did He tell him? 'Keep up the good work' or 'Do even better', etc? No, Jesus told him “Unless a man is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God". What does that mean, why would Jesus say something like that if it's all about keeping the law?
. . . and, Do you count John & James & Peter's NT writings as properly included in the Bible as Scripture? And, do you count all 4 gospels as properly counted as gospels and rightly included in the NT?*********************
No This post was not in response to you.
Question 1 : Paul did not teach the faith/Grace doctrine and neither did Yahshua. Yahshua said to keep the commandments, have mercy, and faith.
2. The council sent him away because the Holy Ghost had already told them to send Paul away. Paul had a mission, to fulfill Balaam’s prophecy.
3. I believe in faith and obeying the commandments. I don’t believe in Faith/Grace alone. Is it ok if I have faith? Thanks
4. Being born again is to become as a little child. The slate is clean and you begin again and obey the word. But if you sin again it’s counted against you.
About Paul
God Didn't Want People To Think That, What The Apostles Taught Was The Same As Paul So He Separated Them *see below
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Acts 13:1-3
There were some prophets who came to Antioch and as they were fasting and praying the Holy Ghost told them to separate Barnabas and Paul, from the church, so they could do the work God had called them for.
2. As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. 3. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
Remember, Judas was called by God to fulfill prophecy.
Paul was called to fulfill the prophecy of Balaam in Numbers.
Balaam means "devourer of the people" or simply "devourer" or "destroyer,"
Balaam led Israel into sin by suggesting that Moab's women seduce the Israelites into sexual immorality and idolatry, causing about 24,000 Israelite deaths (Numbers 25:1-9; 31:16). Why would God leave the sayings of such a vile man in His Book? Well so people would know not to be tempted away from God, not to be fooled. If they knew the word, they couldn’t be.
There would be someone arise that would as a stumbling block, lead people away from God. Not with women the way it had always being done.
He would lead many into sin without them knowing it. What better way to do this than teaching lies.
John says
2 John 1: 10-11
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
Paul States That He was the chosen light for the Gentiles and would bring salvation to the ends of the earth. Yet In Acts 10 God chose Peter and at the same time that He told Peter, He also told others.
No one had ever heard of Paul's Gospel before, as it was something new. The Twelve Apostles didn't teach it and certainly, never did Yahshua.
Paul Taught all we had to do was have faith and didn't have to seek righteousness
Paul claims he had a Gospel
Romans 2:16
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to MY gospel.
Paul was who Balaam prophesied about.
Revelation 2:14
But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.************
I am breaking this up by replying instead of editing, so each is not too long.
Paul taught it was Okay to eat things offered to idols, because they knew there was one God
1 Corinthians 8
4. As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6. But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
7. Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
8. But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worsePaul taught it was OK, but Revelations coming after Paul says:
Revelation 2:14
But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
Anyway - back to the original question. close to 300 replies - I hope I'm not too late. My Hub on the Readers Digest version of the Bible story puts it this way...
God knew that Lucifer was going to rebel. He also knew that He couldn't just destroy Satan right then and there. So He did the only thing He could do - let Satan prove whether or not his way was better than God's way.
See my Hub for more details <--- shameless plug
Thanks and God-bless!The Bible clearly declares that He DID.
So, either you are wrong or the Bible is.
I choose the Bible version over yours.
Where does it say that?
Not a challenge. I just have never read where it said that.AshtonFirefly,
There are a number of passages that attribute various divine things (characteristics, abilities, deeds, etc) to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit . . . in some cases the very same thing is attributed to more than one of them at a time. Perhaps the most familiar and often referenced passage that answers your question is in the beginning of John's gospel, when talking about Jesus John states ~
"All things were made through Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made"Hmmm...
but verse three of that passage simply states that all things were made through him and without him, not one thing was made. (paraphrase) In direct quote, and idk which translation you use but this one says: "All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made which has come into being."
It didn't say He made it, it simply said that it was made through him. ?
I am content with "through" indicating His identity as creator . . . the reality of the triune nature of God is demonstrated in this - I don't assert that Jesus made the world and the Father did not, or that the Spirit absent from the work . . . the Bible is clear that God made the world, it is also clear that when the Father made the world it was His Spirit moving across the face of the waters and that He made it all through Jesus - God made the world and God is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
That is in speaking of the spirit, which was not named Jesus. Jesus became a person named Jesus when he was born to Mary and she named him. The spirit has no name, and is not bound to a particular body, in that we all have that spirit which is the breath of life. This is how Jesus could say that he knew us from the foundation...because we were there also.
If Jesus created the universe....to whom was he praying in the Garden of Gethsemane?
In that God/Jesus to some, are inseparable entities, Jesus created the universe. Many people don't support that. Many separate Jesus from God/creator, while at the same time understanding how and why they are one thing, but then, so is everything in the creation. Peter, the disciple said that Jesus was a man, approved of God. I agree. He was one of us. I believe that God/creator made us because God has no material form, and through us can experience it. I believe that we were made to lift the rock...to push the stone.
Matthew 16:15-17
King James Version (KJV)
15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 8:28-29
King James Version (KJV)
28And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
29And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Mark 3:10-12
King James Version (KJV)
10For he had healed many; insomuch that they pressed upon him for to touch him, as many as had plagues.
11And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.
12And he straitly charged them that they should not make him known.
Luke 1:34-35
King James Version (KJV)
34Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Luke 4:40-41
King James Version (KJV)
40Now when the sun was setting, all they that had any sick with divers diseases brought them unto him; and he laid his hands on every one of them, and healed them.
41And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.
Luke 8:27-29
King James Version (KJV)
27And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.
28When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.
29(For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.)
I think that God/Jesus created the world because He wanted to create something beautiful. Unfortunately, man sinned
We are all sons and daughters of God. "I come, not to bring peace, but a sword and division. Division between a mother and daughter, division between a son and his father." Had Jesus claimed to be God among the Jews...they would have stoned him w/o trial. Raising Jesus to godhood denies his humanity and makes the whole thing pointless. I wouldn't let anyone sacrifice themselves because of something I did, and personally detest such people. To let an innocent take the blame. Really?
****************************
The word Godhead was translated from the Greek word Theotjta which was translated from the Hebrew word Shekhinah meaning divine presence, Sacred Power of God, Holy Ghost. Everywhere else the Hebrew
Shekhinah was found it was translated as Holy Ghost, but not here.
People think the Godhead means some kind of thing where God, the Son , and Holy Ghost dwell.
Everyone might want to research thisso, you detest someone because they sacrifice themselves for you in an act of love? they give you a gift and you detest them? doesnt say much for you. and the jews attempted to stone JESUS because HE claimed an equality with GOD...
John 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Philippians 2:5-7
King James Version (KJV)
5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:********************
Mercy is better than sacrifice
Hosea 6:6
For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
The only thing you can do for people like this is pray for them. They are obviously seeking answers in their own hate. Only God can reach these people
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