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The book of mormon teaches that the American Indians were from Israel. That is the corner stone of their faith. DNA proved that the American Indians were not from Israel but in fact were from Asian descent. Proving that the BofM is a lie and a fictional book.
From the country of Israel, no. From the same geographical area of the world? Absolutely.
I have to add that it is quite sad to see so much hatred from one person. A little tolerance can go a long way towards erasing that most damaging of emotions from within us all.
i dont really understand the hatred comment. to who is that referring?
Lately there has been a rash of new threads started, all condemning the Mormons for their faith. All by the same person.
Somebody hates the Mormon faith, if not Mormons themselves.
i see. there was a question recently in the Q&A section that asked if atheist hated God or something of that nature. 1 or 2 responses was somewhere along the lines of not hating God, but being mad at or not liking believers. then whenever this type of question or discussion comes up, i almost always see this quote from at least 1 person. "more wars have been fought over religion than anything else". not only have i never seen proof of it, its hard to believe wealth and power wouldnt be the leading cause. anyway, my point of all this is just to say i understand the concern.
I believe that Native Americans were of Asian descent.
but what does it matter?
Why would the Mormons think otherwise? And why would it be important to them?
to consider this topic will show us how the Mormon religion has gotten off track, and as we all know… religions do go off track!
Yes, Native Americans were of Asian descent, coming across the landbridge in Alaska. And before that, the Asians were of African descent, as were all men.
If the Mormons think otherwise, well, that's what happens when you depend on peoples from years ago for your science. It's wrong.
im not disagreeing the DNA, archaeological, and historical evidence dont look good for the mormon religion. im not disputing that. i was just commenting on the hate towards mormons really. that i disagree with.
Religion gets of track yes.. But not the bible
Got it. All religions get off track, except yours. That one is always right. A well thought out concept.
Mine? It's the bible... I have nothing to do with its contents.
"Religions" based on Christianity get off track; idolatry and related religions were never on track; ancient Judaism as a religion got off track when the people of God closed their ears/eyes to the Spirit and never recognized the fulfillment of their scriptures through Jesus Christ (but God has yet a plan for their salvation, just as he had a plan for every other nation's salvation when he opened the Way for us all). Passingtheword is making the distinction between "religion" and the real thing, which includes an actual relationship with the one true God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) and the Spirit inspired and maintained Word (what we call the Bible). Since the Spirit leads us into all truth and since God's Word (which became flesh in Jesus) is given to us, we want to be careful when following any "religion" or leader, since we then can easily get off track ourselves. We do well to make sure we are following the true Word, not any person. The true gospel is for ALL people, from every nation and tribe! It may even one day be yours because God is awesome in power, and all things are possible, and because he is a loving and forgiving God. And I pray exactly that, Wilderness - I pray you are my yet unborn brother-in-Christ who will have his spiritual eyes opened and become zealous for the Lord, even as you are now zealous in the things of the world. In Jesus' name. Amen.
As a Christian, I'll not pray for you to become zealous. If you ever decided to meander over to this side of the fence, we'd be happy to have ya. But I'll not pray for you to be zealous. I'll not pray for you to become anything, because 1. I have respect for you faith or lack thereof enough to not presume to pray for you unless you ask or give permission 2. Because I love you just the way you are and don't want you to change unless you want to change of your own accord, and 3. Because zealous people do things for obscure reasons and the less of them we have, the better.
"It is fine to be zealous, provided the purpose is good." (Galatians 4:18) I see God has designed you, Wilderness, with a zealous personality, so my prayer for you is that your zealous gift will one day be used for the good. I do want you and also me, as well as all of us, to change and keep right on changing for the good - "The Lord--who is the Spirit--makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image" (2 Corinthians 3:18). So I do earnestly and humbly pray for you, Wilderness, that you will come to a saving knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ! Even if you hate me now, I pray that one day I will call you brother and you will call me sister, and upon leaving this brief life, you will be at home eternally with our Lord and Savior. Based on God's Word that "he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9) and his promise that "if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us; and if we know that he hears us - whatever we ask - we know that we have what we asked of him" (John 5:14-15), I ask according to his will that you, Wilderness, will not perish but will have your Spiritual eyes opened and will be saved through Jesus Christ. In Jesus' name I pray it. Amen.
So, I assume you stone people on a regular basis.
Really? The native Americans came across the Bering strait over 14,000 years ago - long before Adam and Eve. Long before, in fact, the earth was created according to the bible that does not get off track.
how do you know when adam and eve were alive?
The bible says so. And the bible is never off track. Didn't you read the whole thread?
Silly isn't the word for such a catastrophe.
Thank goodness we have the ability to "interpret" His words and make them fit reality with just a few simple changes here and there.
lol. i did. that doesnt really answer the question though. the bible actually does not specify a creation date.
Genises 1:1 In the beginning God created...
Genises 1:2 earth was void. Take the word was to the Hebrew and it means became void. So the earth was created then destroyed . No one knows when Genises 1:1accured. And if you read the bible it said that man was created on the sixth day God rested on the seventh day then he created Adam. The bible is still on track. You have to study the bible if your going to sat that.
Except several of those civilizations from 14,000 years ago (e.g. the Hopi) were still around in recent history. If God destroyed the earth between then and now, he apparently missed a few.
All-powerful, all-knowing...just can't quite aim correctly.
The age of the earth is not written in the Word, and conclusions about it depend on the concept of "day" in the creation account - does "day" represent a time period, or were events greatly sped up during creation? (It's interesting that the evolutionist's theory as to the order of evolution follows the biblical account of creation, so that evolutionists unwittingly provide support for creationism). The amount of time that Adam and Eve were in the garden is also unknown. We can't determine the age of the earth from the Word, but we also can't trust the world's account of the age of the earth because the dating methods are absurdly flawed, as shown when rocks of known age are "dated". For example, in the case of Mount St. Helens, the 1980 volcanic rock was dated by the radiometric method as being 2.8 million years old!
Oh look, it's this old chestnut again. Must be fun to twist and torture your holy text in an attempt to make it look un-ridiculous.
It takes no twisting - the definition of "day" is not only a literal day, but an age (e.g., the "day" of the dinosaurs). It only takes enough perception to recognize all things are not to be taken literally, and enough sense to realize there are things beyond our knowedge!
Sorry, but the events that unfolded us do not line up with genesis at all.
Last time I looked the order of events differ between Genesis 1 and 2 which suggests two different writers at work here. Sooooo which order are we going with?
Light = some 14 billion years ago.
Earth = some 10 billion years later.
Birds = after land animals, not before.
Humans = 200,000 years ago.
Need I go on?
Wow... Are you sure? Where did you get your information? A book? Soooo how does gen 1and2?
Gen1 God created heaven(sky and above) and earth (dirt) right? So all is created according to gen1 right?
2 and the earth was was in Hebrew means became) without form (form in Hebrew means waste desolate desert) and void(to be empty ruined) destroyed
so think of this.. When planets are made aren't there dust and gases in the air that prohibits the sun from shining on the surface? When everything settles and the clouds open up. Gen3 let there be light
So you decide what came first. Birds and animal? Please explain.
The problem with your position is that you start from a conclusion, then scrabble about for ideas to support your conclusion; this is not the way to build a case. That is, you assume the Genesis account is factually true (itself blind faith) then look for scientific sounding phrases to prove your case. However you are not I'm guessing an astrophysicist who considers observation and established evidence, proposes a hypothesis to describe the observation, considers what evidence would be required to support the hypothesis, searches to see if evidence can be found, then submits for peer review.
By the way, in Gensis 2 man is created before the plants.
I am not ashamed to say that you lost me.... I guess you are an geologist archaeologist astrologist... Your the man.....
Man was created on the sixth day God rested on the seventh day. Then God created Adam (man take it back to the Hebrew )....chapter 2
I am sure you use the strong conformance to back up your get knowledge of the bible. I am sure you know that the strong helps people take all the word of the kjv of the bible to the original language. Your so wise.
"When planets are made aren't there dust and gases in the air that prohibits the sun from shining on the surface?"
No. As dust and gas collect from the forces of gravity, the sun shines on the surface. Dust and gases, mind you, created from exploding stars; stars that gave out light.
As more and more mass collects and collision become ever greater the surface becomes mostly molten, without dust in the air, if there is any air yet. The sun shines on the surface.
As the earth cools and collisions CAN create dust, the dust will rise into the air but never in quantities sufficient to turn the surface of the earth dark (a collision large enough to create that much dust would split the planet); the sun will still shine on the surface.
So no, your clever machinations of reality to fit your theology have no basis in truth. There was light long before there was earth, regardless of what the bible says.
Man i think you are saying the same thing that i said minus the bible. Get a kjv of the bible and take out your strong concordance( i am sure you have one because you have so much knowledge of the bible and astrophysics) Read gen1-2 and take the words back to the original language( Hebrew and see what you come up with. But i am sure with someone that is so wise like yourself has done that already.
No, I said there was light both in the cosmos and on earth both before and during the eons it took the earth to form. Light existed before earth, in other words.
Near as I can tell, you are trying to say that the reason the bible says there was no light was that it was there but invisible on the surface of the earth due to massive dust clouds. A nice try at changing what the bible says to match reality, but it doesn't work.
God created the heavens and the earth. So the heavens are created in verse 1 right? Then he said let there be light right? What have i add or twisted.
Man created on the sixth day Gods rested on the seventh day then God created a man to til the ground right?
Ill i have is what is written. All you have is what is written. Don't act like you were there or you discovered this. You have as much Faith in what you have read as i have in what i am reading. And what i have read, the bible lines up.
And all that i am sharing is my conclusion to My studies.
"1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."
So far, so good. Except we have earth with no light, just as you said
"3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day."
And here we see God making light some 10 BIllion years before the formation of earth, after earth was formed.
Do you see the confusion now?
So even though our dating methods are so ridiculously flawed, you're still going to believe what silly little people have told you about the age of everything? It's been shown (though the evolution pushers try to hide it as best they can) that rocks of KNOWN age, for example, are never accurately dated, but somehow we're still supposed to believe the ages when rocks of unknown ages are dated! You don't personally know if any of the dates you gave are correct, but you're going to put so much faith in human efforts at "determining" ages? And what if somehow the whole creation events, described by men carried along by the Spirit as best they could describe to the human mind, is so far beyond our little human comprehension, that we really can't make any sense of what the infinite all-powerful God could create and how he could create it, so that the whole discussion is absurd! Do you believe in the magically fantastic big bang theory? Do you believe everything people tell you? Try this - ask the One true God to reveal himself to you. Then when he does, because those who truly seek him find him, then you will already know the truth without any person having to tell you. Once you experience God for yourself, you won't have to follow people. It won't matter what this or that one says, you'll SEE and the Spirit will guide you into all truth. Set the creation thing on a shelf, it's beyond our comprehension anyway, and it really is comical when we try to wrap our little minds around something so outside our comprehension. The entire logic of evolution is absurd and comical. You would NEVER believe that a radio station ever came into existence without a creator, no matter how much time we gave for it to happen, and yet a single cell in the human body is more complex than the entire radio station, and we're supposed to believe that given enough time the human being could come into existence without the Creator! In love, I challenge you, just seek him, and I pray you will find him! In Jesus' powerful name. Amen.
Christian apologist sites are not good sources for scientific information, like, at all. Answers in Genesis is lying to you. Fox News is as truthful as The Onion, and only one of the two are meant to be fictitious. Your laughable disproving of dating methods were debunked decades ago, and to top it all off as the delicious icing on the cake, your religion is a hollow lie conceived by bureaucrats to keep mindless peasant-folk under their control.
LOL... Tell me, how do you have a rock with a "known age" if there is no reliable way to know the age of a rock?
Are they sprouting up outside your window?
Or are ya trying to sneak in the tired carbon dating argument that anyone with a junior high science education can explain... yet creationists still cant wrap their minds around.
I hate the "I don't understand it so it must be wrong." arguments.
Thanks for the advice, and I've decided to do exactly as you said. So 10 hours ago I started praying and I prayed all night for Jesus to reveal God to me and finally about an hour ago it happened, and it was glorious. I instantly understood everything just as you said, and I asked Jesus why science paints a different picture than the word of God. The answer didn't come right away, but it did slowly crawl into my mind… The lord told me we were given our brains to think with and all the evidence is before us, the fact that we can see the light from stars in other galaxies billions of light years away is proof that the universe is billions of years old for the light has been traveling towards us for billions of years. He then asked me to go forth and educated the feeble minded so here I am.
Thank you Jesus.
Really? Ah wow that's well cool. Your claim is equally valid and uncontestable as any claim I ever heard in Church, it must be true :-)
Rad Man, MelissaBarrett, Zelkiiro: God set the stars in the exact time and location for us, to provide us with light. He made the earth and all the universe to exactly suit our needs. Every little detail is just so. There is NO possibility of all these things occurring by chance and it is foolishness to imagine they did! Time has been established now for us, but the eternal God is not bound by time. The manner in which he created does not have to fit into our limited knowledge and understanding. The wisest people recognize how little they know. God is infinite in his power and wisdom. He is the Creator of the universe. You cannot determine the age of anything from the Word because it wasn't designed for that. But be careful following people and their "wisdom", because people are liars and the spirits leading them are liars. If you were to seek the true God in Spirit and in truth, then yes, he would be found by you. And he may yet be someday. Despite your mocking, despite your insults, despite your hatred, that is yet my prayer for each one of you!
"I'm a better Christian than you because I don't know science."
Thanks. I was unaware it was a choice. I'll go erase all that information I learned in College so that I can be a good Christian too.
Is it alright for me to keep the English knowledge? Or does everything have to go?
You are aware arent you of the number of exo-planets that have been detected orbiting other stars in the galaxy aren't you? Many of these in the so called goldilocks zone where liquid water could exist on their surfaces. Within the next few decades it is expected that we will be able to quantify the composition of their atmospheres.
You are aware there are billions of stars in our galaxy, the vast majority too distant to see with the naked eye, so if a star's pupose is to light the Earth then these are all redundant?
I 'sought the true God in spirit and truth' for over 20 years, and you know what, he told me personally that evolution is the method he used; that our scientists are working it out; and creationists are barking up the wrong tree.
Rad Man, MelissaBarrett, Zelkiiro, and Disappearinghead: Science is not in conflict with the Word, but many of the THEORIES are. The existence of stars and planets beyond us in no way negates the fact that God designed our planet and the immediately surrounding universe in such a way that exactly and brilliantly suits us. And, no, there is no possibility of chance happenings leading to this great masterpiece, or any of the multitude of masterpieces within the greater masterpiece. Misusing the facts (e.g., the fact of change), evolutionists push their fantastical conclusions. You would NEVER believe the radio station mentioned earlier came into existence without a creator, but this idea is far less absurd than the evolutionists' ideas because a single cell inside you is more complex than the entire radio station! Be careful when it comes to the "wisdom" of humans; yes, even your college professors. As it is written, "Stop trusting in man, who has but a breath in his nostrils. Of what account is he?" I'm not impressed with college degrees (I have three bachelors degrees and a masters degree, and I'm not impressed with mine or anyone else's degrees). All people speak both lies and truth; but the Word and the Spirit are truth. The fear (i.e., respect) of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, so if you want true wisdom, you'll find it in only one place - from the Lord through the Word and the Spirit. According to standardized IQ tests, my IQ is in the top percentile, so that it takes 100 people to find one with a matching or greater IQ. Yet the only thing this high IQ does is give me just enough intelligence to know how little I or anyone else knows! Mellissa Barrett, can you be a true Christian without the Word and the Spirit, since Jesus himself is the Word ("The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us")? I don't recognize the spirit in you, but maybe you are a Christian.as you say. If so, I don't care who's better; and so you will no longer feel a need to compete, let me place myself in the bottom position (In fact, I am no "better" than anyone, but am guilty of every category of sin). Now from my lowly position, with full acknowledge of flawed words, actions, etc., I nonetheless declare this truth to anyone with ears to hear: "This is what the Sovereign Lord says - your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself, who foils the sings of false prophets and makes fools of diviners, who overthrows the learning of the wise and turns it into nonsense, who carries out the words of his servants and fulfills the predictions of his messengers" (Isaiah 44:24-26).
Yeah, my IQ results say the same thing. I don't put a lot of stock in them, because I still can't find my keys or wallet. My IQ also doesn't stop me from being ignorant at times. Go figure.
Now, besides being highly judgmental, here is your problem. You are ignoring several bible verses in your attempt to argue creationism. The very first is Matthew 22:21.
I have absolutely no problem declaring that evolution and the big bang are 100% accurate scientifically. They are. No questions asked. Now, that has absolutely no bearing on my religious beliefs because science is a completely different realm. You are trying to take away from Caesar the things that are Caesar's. Basically, it's none of your business. By trying to disprove science with the Bible, you are degrading both. Scientifically, your arguments are nonsensical. They really, really are.
Admitting that doesn't take away from God whatsoever. It just takes away from you. Believe it or not, it is quite possible to accept scientific fact and Biblical fact and apply them both in their own realms. The only reason NOT to keep them separate is because you are trying to convince yourself, or others, of the existence (or non-existence) of God.
The problem with that is you are not going to uneducate anyone. No one is going to suddenly become ignorant of everything they've learned... and it is ethically reprehensible to try to keep somebody from learning. All you do when stating things that are scientifically wrong is dilute the message by reducing the credibility of the messenger (In this case, you.)
You are trying to prove God by disproving science. You're on the wrong field playing the wrong sport. God has to be proved by religious (spiritual, emotional whatever, it boils down to personal proof) Science is proved a completely different way.
Now, whether or not you recognize the spirit in me is your problem, not mine. I personally think "the spirit" is a ridiculous term that was created by Christians as a fallback answer when they were too uncomfortable acknowledging that sometimes their faith makes no logical sense. It's become a silly, separating phrase that makes the faithful look unintelligent and dishonest.
Science provides us with truth about the world around us, so it would seem that any conflict would have to disprove those truths. So far, that hasn't happened.
Our planet is not made in such a way that exactly and brilliantly suits us, not by a long shot. Where would you get that idea? Most of the earths surface is either covered in water or uninhabitable to live.
Sorry, but evolution is fact. The masterpieces you refer are the result of evolution.
Complexity doesn't automatically mean a creator is required, that is a fallacy.
Funny how the most ardent believers who don't understand anything at all have multiple degrees.
Sorry, I don't see any truths in gods and spirits, nor do I use fear to learn things.
High IQ and multiple degrees, did you win the Nobel Prize, too? What's interesting is that you show the complete opposite to having that IQ and those degrees.
You should probably just be speaking for yourself.
True Scotsman fallacy?
How does one recognize spirit in another?
You murdered someone?
I have ears to hear, but what you're saying is not a truth.
The radio station analogy to evolution is an interesting concept; let's see if we can't make it a better one.
First, consider that it isn't the station that needs built, just the blueprints. The same as the DNA "blueprint" in a sperm that is then used for construction of the organism.
So let's draw the blueprint for the radio station. Start with the blueprint of the foundation, analogous to the parent organism. Perhaps the first single celled creature.
Then take one million copies of that blueprint and spread it among one million people with pencils. Similar to the one million organism colony already existing.
Blindfold each person and let them make one mark on the blueprint. As if there were a random mutation to the DNA. Maybe from a gamma ray, maybe from a chemical contact, maybe from an error in copying the DNA string.
Take the blindfolds off and check the blueprint, as if the organism reproduced and survival of the fittest checks to see if the baby survives and reproduces. If the new mark on the blueprint will aid in expanding the building towards some kind of radio station (regardless of desired frequency, AM or FM, height or anything else but a building to make radio waves) it is left alone. If not, erase it, as if the baby had died.
Do that every 6 hours (hypothetical reproduction time span for the original organism) for 2 billion years. That's 1,460,000,000,000 new marks on each of one million sets of blueprints. Or 1,460,000,000,000,000,000,000 new pencil marks.
Do you think that somewhere in those one million sets of blueprints you will find a set that shows a larger, functional, building with an antenna on top? Not a perfect one, certainly, and not even a particularly good one, just one that will produce radio waves? In 1 and a half sextillion "different" sets of blueprints?
Seems rather likely to me, and if we consider that the original colony grows in size on an exponential graph, with correspondingly more "blueprints", it becomes a near certainty.
Melissa Barrett: I am not trying to disprove SCIENCE but THEORIES that misuse the facts of science. The scientific fact is change - things change and adapt, and we can even see some speciation from time to time. But from this fact it is neither good logic nor good science to say that because things change we therefore MUST have evolved from the lowest to the greatest organisms without our Creator! All the "evidences" for the fantastical conclusions within evolution theories are fluff evidences, that neither prove nor disprove anything except the simple truth of change; while the necessary evidences for the proposed transformations are missing by the MILLIONS (and they say they're searching for THE missing link, LOL)! God has declared to us throughout his Word that he is the Creator and that he created us in his image. Anything that denies this truth is not from God, but from the evil one. You quote Matthew 22:21, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." That is exactly what I am doing; as it is written: "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it (1 Corinthians 10:26). All of creation is God's! Maintain what is true within your education, but yes "unlearn" the lies! Why are you relying on human teaching when our knowledge is so limited? If I or anyone else tells you something outside of the Spirit and the Word, then why trust it (We are not talking of science you see but of theories about the science you see)? But if we rely on the Spirit and the Word, then it isn't us speaking it; it is God's own Word and Spirit (no, it doesn't make anyone special; God has declared that in the end times he will generously pour out his Spirit on his sons and daughters). If you do not have the Spirit, which you indicate is a term made up by Christians, then how can you have truth since it is the Spirit who guides us into all truth (John 16:13)? Do you believe the Word of God, which is inspired and maintained by the Spirit, or do you believe the words of people that contradict the Word and the Spirit? You cannot have it both ways.
Do you understand what a scientific "theory" is? Because it is not the common "theory" we use in everyday language; it is an idea that has been tested and checked to exhaustion to the point that it is now considered fact.
Do you then deny that organisms mutate? That bacteria mutate and become resistant to specific antibiotics? That natural selection, survival of the fittest, will produce a race/species particularly suited to the environment? That even larger creatures can and do suffer mutation to their DNA, resulting in a different creature than the parent? That natural obstructions (seas, mountain ranges, etc.) can and do isolate communities of organisms whether plant or animal?
Do you believe that these things never happen? Because that's what evolution is all about...
Your SCIENTIFIC knowledge is wrong. Period. I believe what scientists tell me about SCIENTIFIC knowledge... because that's what they do. They are the experts. What they say is verifiable. You, again, are attempting to disprove scientific theories with religion.
Your SCIENTIFIC THEORIES are wrong. No matter what your religious websites tell you. Those websites are doing the same thing you are regurgitating. The are trying to disprove science with religion. They are twisting science to try and fit religion and explaining in a way that the ignorant believe it. It's called pseudoscience.
Once again, my religion doesn't have anything to do with my scientific knowledge (or vice versa) and yours shouldn't either. They are apples and oranges.
Once again, you are diluting the message by discrediting yourself, the messenger.
It's quite fine to say "This is true within the scientific realm." and then say "This is true within the religious realm."
It's like saying that Jesus walking on water is possible within the religious realm, but completely impossible scientifically. You accept that without arguing that the science is wrong... without trying to prove that it is scientifically possible to walk on water... yes? Or do you spend hours arguing that it is scientifically possible to walk on water?
Because I'd love to watch that conversation.
I am guided, religiously, by my faith. Call it spirit if you like, I prefer less melodramatic, less mystical terms. However, when I go to the grocery store, I rely on my economic knowledge. When I decide whether my kids need to see a doctor, I rely on my medical knowledge. When I fix my car, I rely on my mechanical knowledge... and when I discuss science, I rely on my scientific knowledge.
I don't take a Bible with me under the car when I change my oil.
If something becomes a theory, it IS a collection of facts.
For someone who claims to have multiple degrees and an IQ in the top one percentile, your understanding is abysmal and argument is below high school caliber.
There is nothing that makes any sense there at all, it's just religious gobbledegook.
Wilderness, as I also said, change is a fact of science, and I do not dispute the facts of mutations, adaptations, survival of the fittest, differences based on the environment, and so on. NONE of this contradicts the Word. Praise be to the Creator that he made the creation to change and adapt! The errors in logic come not from any of the observable scientific facts, but from the fantastical conclusions reached from the simple facts. This is a true statement: things adapt and change. However, this fact does not make the reverse true: because things change, we therefore MUST have evolved from the simplest life forms to the greatest without a Creator. The reverse of a true statement does not have to be true. The claim that the evolutionist's theory about the origins of life must be true based on the truth of change is as illogical as saying that because it is true that we live in America if we live in Rhode Island, it is also therefore true that if we live in America we necessarily live in Rhode Island. Do you see the error in the logic of the theoretical aspects (not in the observed and tested truths) of evolution theory? The evidence is there for the NONDISPUTED facts of change (mutation, adaptation, survival of the fittest, differences based on environment, even some limited speciation); the evidence is not there for the fantastical conclusions from those facts - If these conclusions were true, we'd be finding MILLIONS of transitional forms in the fossil records, etc., but it's all the vital evidences that are MISSING! Evolution has intermixed fact and fantasy; keep the facts, but throw out the fantasy!
Melissa Barrett, you're free to rely on whatever you will, but as your sister-in-Christ (if you are a believer), then I exhort you to rely more and more on the power and wisdom of God in ALL things!
To those of you throwing insults at me (seriously, would you in person?), I have only this to say: I will defend my Lord, I will defend the living Word and I will defend the Spirit, I will even defend my brothers and sisters in Christ from every tribe and nation, but I will not defend myself. Instead I'll quote one of my favorite quotes (not from the bible): "As for the things my enemies have to say about me, I know far worse things about myself than they've ever said." May our merciful, loving and longsuffering God bless you in the year 2014!
You are correct in that we cannot say that we DID evolve from simpler organisms.
What we CAN say is that it COULD have happened (evidence we see that is happening today shows us that). Coupled with a pretty good trail of fossils and other evidence, we are absolutely sure it DID happen.
As opposed to the idea of an invisible creature in the sky (forever undetected and undetectable) that "popped" all plants and animals from the dust of the earth in one day. Possible, but requires that the creature made millions of species that died out before we came along, all in one day. This one not only has zero evidence it happened but lots of evidence it did NOT happen.
I will just add that every fossil we find is by definition a transitional fossil. We have millions of them despite your claim to the contrary. What you really mean is that we have not unearthed the fossil of every creature to have ever lived on earth and therefore evolution didn't happen. Do you see the problem with that statement?
You will take your choice as to which makes more sense, as will I. That you will make your choice based on what is comfortable and desirable for you to believe does not make it right and does not mean I should choose the same way. That you choose to claim evolution happens (including evolution of Homo Sapiens), but did not happen, does not mean I should accept the faulty reasoning as true.
LOL, yes I am a Christian... I just don't feel any particular need to roll around in it and foam at the mouth. Apparently, that means you doubt me. So be it. I'm comfortable enough in my faith that I don't need to froth to prove to my faith to myself... and I really see no reason to prove it to anyone else. Nor do I walk around with this brothers and sisters in Christ silliness... nor do I talk of being taken by "the spirit."
Wanna know something fun? I actually get asked questions about my faith and why I believe the way I do... I don't have to knock on anyone's door to find that. Then they listen when I give "testimony" (Another silly word I hate, but the word is more fitting to being asked questions and answering them rather than screaming it at the top of one's lungs so loudly everyone blocks you out.)
I've had atheists volunteer to go to my church, not because I asked but because they asked me about it and I gave answers. Several are still members.
My point is you might want to tone the hard-sell down a little bit...if you are trying to convert. I, personally, have no desire to convert anyone anywhere at any time. If God wants them, he'll find them just fine without my help.
But all that is a digression.
I don't need to rely on God for things that I am quite able to do myself. That's why I was blessed with a brain. And while my faith is one of the most importing things in my life, it isn't the ONLY thing. It was never meant to be the only thing. If you read your Bible, you'd know that.
Really take a look at Chapter 22 of Matthew. Understand the situation Jesus was in. He understood the value of separating what was Caesar's and what was God's. I think you might need a refresher course.
Wilderness: Those who do not already personally know God the Creator can say we evolved without our Creator (though evidence for anything beyond the undisputed change of organisms is still lacking - fossil records have not supported evolution theories in the way that was expected by evolutionists, but have shown more distinct "kinds" and have not shown the millions of transitions for all the cats, dogs, mice, horses, cows, etc. that would exist). It seems to me you are letting the unknowns and our understanding of time get in the way of any consideration of your Creator. The eternal God is not bound by time and if things were created in some rapid manner outside our understanding, then perhaps it would be "as if" billions of years old, though not. Anyway, we don't know how long people existed; we don't know how long Adam and Eve were in the garden while the animals lived and died, etc. Things that are impossible with man are possible with God! My belief in God really isn't a choice anymore since God has already revealed himself to me and sealed me with his Holy Spirit. He reveals himself continually, so that I have experienced supernatural healings, events, etc. You can dismiss me as out of my mind, and that's okay because I understand that the things of the Spirit are foolishness to those without the Spirit. But, Wilderness, I'll continue to pray that what is now "foolishness" to you will one day make all the sense in the world, and you will one day be my brother! Research the prophesies - Jesus and his birth, his death, the nation of Israel, the rising and falling of nations, the end times, etc. It's all so specific and is all being fulfilled! I wish I could express to you how genuinely I'm praying for you, and I say this with no pride or condensation whatsoever. It is not God's will that any perish, and I am praying according to his will and believing in faith that one day you will come to a saving knowledge of the God of heaven and earth, your Creator and the one who has loved you from the beginning. Don't let me or anyone else get in the way, just let him reveal himself to you. One day every knee will bow to Jesus, and the time of the end is rapidly approaching, so on behalf of Christ and in true love, I urge you to choose life while it is a choice!
You're right - there are lots of things we don't know. We don't know every change in DNA between Lucy and modern humans, for instance, although we know enough to know there is a direct lineage. We don't know exact lineage of every creature to exist. We don't know to the day when extinct animals died.
We DO know things, though - we know how long man has been here, given that the definition of "man" is somewhat vague. We know that Adam and Eve, created in a flash of time from a handful of dust and Adam's rib, were myth only, not truth.
You have no idea of God is bound by time, although I understand you are quite willing to make the claim. This is common throughout religious belief; belief becomes confused and interchanged with true knowledge. You cannot know if God is bound by time as you don't have the faintest evidence of what He is composed of, where He is, where He originated or anything else. Only what you have come to believe (there's that belief thing again!). The same thing holds with what is possible with God - the only evidence you have is that some person thousands of years ago made the claim that God can do anything, and had no more proof than you do. Belief confused with knowledge.
Sorry, I don't believe God has revealed himself to you. You have no pictures, you cannot describe His form, temperature, color or any other attribute He possesses. He has revealed nothing, and what you believe is His revelation is your own imagination. Imagination and desire can convince gullible people of anything.
All forecasts (prophesies) will be fulfilled - if they are vague enough and "interpreted" in such a way that they DO happen. As there are no specific prophesies in the bible (dates and places, please, with exact actions to occur) it's not a problem to "show" they are happening now. Just has they were shown to be happening a thousand years ago, 500 years ago, 1500 years ago, or whatever other date we wish.
Sure - God (or Jesus or any angel) can reveal themselves to me. I do require a revelation that cannot be mistaken for imagination or desire. A physical presence, in other words, and one that interacts with not only me but with the environment in such a way it remains for at least several days. Photographed and measurable with whatever instruments I choose to use. Reveal Himself in other words, not something I've dreamed up all by myself.
As of now, I prefer truth to an imaginary world populated by imaginary angels, gods and devils. Or gnomes, fairies and leprechauns. Unicorns, werewolves and dragons need not apply. Yes, I know the time is rapidly approaching when everyone will bow to the Christian God - it has been so for over 2,000 years now. Very rapid, I have to say, and very sad that we continue to hear the same story for so long without anything happening.
So basically you have claimed to know things nobody can know, but said CJ is a liar for claiming to know things she can't prove. I didn't even know Lucy had kids. What were their names and do you have pictures? I couldn't find them on Facebook.
Do you wish to discuss or be silly?
Was my assessment incorrect? I thought you would recognize it was correct and it wouldn't be necessary to break it down.
Some scientists believe this to be true. Nobody, including you, "knows" it. Like I said, you don't even know if Lucy had kids, or if the myth of macro evolution where true, if Lucy's "people's" lineage died out or lead anywhere at all. Do you? Let's start there, and if you wish I will continue working my way through your post.
Start with forgetting Lucy; think only her people. Assume she was not the only example of her kind.
Then look at the similarities being passed down, ending up in home sapiens. Check the similarities through all the different species and how they could so easily have come from the preceding species. Note there there are no other species available that carry nearly the same amount of similarities.
Do we absolutely know? Of course not; there is no video record. Is there sufficient record of changes to be very certain? Yes, and in more ways than one. Compared to the theological claim of instantaneous formation of woman from a rib, with evidence found ONLY in a single book known to lie, I know which I choose.
It is very common for the ID proponent to demand total, 100% knowledge (of evolution but never of the bible somehow); this will obviously never be available. Any more than it is available for your own immediate parentage - the question becomes where do we draw the line between belief and knowledge? The "theory" of evolution is no "theory" in the common, unscientific, usage of the word; it is fact. Evolution DOES occur and can be seen all around us, including in homo sapiens itself. That is sufficient to make a claim that we likely come from preceding species; an untested and unsupported claim from unknown, ignorant goat herders that didn't know what a sperm or DNA was is not.
You may take those concepts as useful definitions for "belief", "evidence" and "knowledge" or you may make up your own. You may decide to use any claim by any person under any circumstances as absolute knowledge, but you won't get much support or agreement from the world. You may decide that any claim from the Christian bible (as opposed to all other scripture) is absolute truth and knowledge, but you won't get much agreement on that one either.
Fossil records are not required to show evolution is a fact.
More religious gobbledegook.
Wilderness, it is God's Spirit that reveals himself to us, not the physical Father who sits on his throne in heaven - no physical body, but present in power, love, wisdom, and so on. I've experienced God's presence and power so many times, though sadly so few, and here are a few examples: 1) When my ankle wasn't healing right after a third degree sprain, I gave it to God and began singing, "Take my feet and let them be swift and beautiful for thee". Suddenly pain like I hadn't felt since the weeks earlier when I first sprained it began shooting all through my ankle and I was taken aback, stating I asked for healing, God, what are you doing? Thereafter the ankle was fine, as if never sprained, so that I didn't even experience the troubles I'd been told I would with such a bad sprain. 2) Let's get real personal with this one, just to show you your salvation means more to me than my dignity - from the age of twelve when I started menstruating (sorry, yes, I said it) to the age of twenty-five (a total of thirteen years) I experienced such extreme pain in my abdomen each month (maybe from a cyst; I was too scared of doctors to go) that everything would turn black and the ringing in my ears would start as I about passed out, I would have to lie down wherever I was, etc. At the age of twenty-five, when I was telling God to take away the pain or take me to heaven right then, I heard him very clearly state, "Focus on me, not the pain," and I experienced the type of out-of-body experiences generally induced by drugs, so that I felt my spirit/soul/whatever lifted off the bed and high above (yes, my body was still laying there on the bed; no, I wasn't and have never been on drugs). The pain was gone, and while that might make sense to the naturally-minded, given "pain management techniques", here's what doesn't make sense in the natural realm - thereafter, now for fourteen years from age 25 to age 39, I never had to use any "pain management", I didn't need out-of-body experiences, because at that time God took me out of my body away from the pain, he healed my body, and I have never since experienced the pain! 3) When almost hit by a truck right at the passenger door of the car I was riding in, and saying "NO, I don't want to be hit by the truck" (yes, I actually said something that simplistic and corny sounding when about to die), suddenly I literally saw the truck moved back so that it was no longer about to hit me, and we had enough time to swerve and be missed. 4) When counseling kids in detention, I experienced the power of the Spirit in such powerful ways (God really does have a heart for the least, and these kids locked up in detention were the "least" by most human standards) - If I felt led to say to a young thief, "you can't serve both God and money", then out of all the thousands of verses in the Word, I would open up the precise verse that said "You can't serve both God and money." Sometimes the youth and I would simultaneously feel such jolts and warmth, that freaked out, we'd stop in amazement and say, "Did you feel that?" I could go on, but you get the idea.
The prophesies of the godless are not fulfilled. Many false prophets have been proven false. We know all prophecies of the day of Jesus' second coming are false because Jesus specifically said we wouldn't know the day or hour, but the day would come like a theif. The Words of God are fulfilled and they are specific. Within the Jewish text exists all the prophesies of Jesus the Messiah, but Jesus was not received by them at the time, since God's plan was to open the door to all nations to come to God (and Jewish people will still be saved, just after all nations have a chance to receive Jesus). All these were prophesied: the fall and difficulties for Israel, the rebirth of the nation of Israel even though it appeared impossible, the increase in godlessness, the falling away from the faith, the disobedience of children, the increase in wars and natural disasters, ""wormwood" or cancer, the globalization of nations, and so on.
The time since Jesus' death is collectively known as the "end times", and it is relatively brief compared to all "time". As we see the above mentioned fulfillments of end-time prophesies, we discern that the time is very close. The "end times" can be compared to a pregnancy - we've been pregnant for awhile, now we're beginning to experience labor pains, but no one knows exactly how long our labor will be.
When I say the eternal God is not bound by time, this is my understanding from the Word and the Spirit: He is and he was and he is to come; he is eternal and all powerful! It may be that processes were sped. But regardless, it is noteworthy that numbers have great symbolism - so the seven "days" may simply be a way of stating that everything was created in completeness, since seven means complete.
Take care, Wilderness, and stay open to the Spirit!
"...I heard him very clearly state,..."
Deep voice or high? What language? Slow speech or hurried? Male or female? Childish or adult? Because people hearing voices out of nowhere typically need professional help.
Did you video the truck? Measure it's location before and after "moving back"? Because any cop will tell you that such observations are notoriously unreliable, and triply so in a high stress situation. I have myself driven around two "impossible" accidents without a scratch but I don't attribute it to the presence of a god. Just quick reactions, proper action and a knowledge of what my car could do.
The result is that when you claim "the spirit" made itself known to you it just reinforces the idea that there was no revealing at all, just your own imagination. You can produce absolutely nothing but a handful of coincidental actions attribute to your god but actually have zero reason for doing so. Correlation in time does NOT indicate a causal relationship. Meaning that asking or praying for a result, and seeing the result subsequently happen does NOT mean god did it. Just that one thing followed another in the time line.
Other people will swear that Nostrodamus's prophesies have all come true - why would you think otherwise? Just because you don't like the idea he is a prophet or that only prophets can read the future? Truth is, no one has ever successfully given detailed, specific prophesies more than a short time in the future. As in "I will go to MacDonalds now". None have ever been fulfilled except by extreme twisting and spinning of the prophecy into something never meant.
Just like spinning 2,000+ years into "end times" which are "soon" but never happen. Come on, CJ - not a single one of those prophesies were ever intended to be 2,000 years away, not a single claim it was to be "soon" meant more than a handful of years. Even you don't mean more than a decade or so, but then neither did those 1,000 years ago that said the same thing. They aren't going to happen.
EncephaloiDead: If by "evolution" you mean things CHANGING (mutations, adaptation, some speciation, etc.), you can call it a fact; if however, you are including the theoretical aspects about origins of life and so on, then, no, it is not established and will not be established as true fact (though you can call it whatever you want). "The bigger the lie the more people will believe it." And yes, if once upon a time evolution from the simplest to the greatest organisms occurred, the fossil record would bear witness to it. Instead we're left with only simple facts related to change, which were never disputed in the first place and do not contradict the Word of God.
Wherever you get your strange ideas about evolution does not preclude the fact evolution explains how all life on earth came about. It would do you a great service to actually educate yourself before attempting to discredit something you don't even understand.
Or, is there no more room alongside your multiple degrees and incredibly high IQ. Did you print off those degrees from a diploma mill?
That explains religions.
The fossil record does bear witness to evolution, but as I already stated, the fossil record is not required to show evolution is a fact.
Evolution and the scientists and people who understand it don't care about the Word of God being contradicted. The Word of God contradicts reality, so it has no purpose other than to deceive.
Wilderness: When I say Jesus is coming "soon", I do actually mean it could be more than ten years from now, but I'll be surprised if it's more than 100 years away based on all the rapid fulfilling of end time prophesies in recent years. There's a reason that almost every preacher now says it's coming "soon", while a few decades ago only a handful stressed how soon it was coming. People can claim prophesies were fulfilled, they can claim anything they want, but the prophesies in the Word are right there in front of you so there can be no twisting. Prophesies about Israel becoming a nation again, for example, have been there for all to see, and now have been fulfilled.
The Spirit will speak to you in your own language, and you don't need to audibly hear him, but if you listen with a sincere heart, if you seek him in Spirit and in truth, he will be found by you! It's funny how many "coincidences" those of us with faith experience! So for thirteen years I was in tremendous pain every month, I experienced God's supernatural presence and healing, and now for fourteen years the pain has not returned, but you want me to believe this was a "coincidence"? It was a coincidence that pain shot through my ankle when I gave it over to God, and that the poorly healing ankle from that exact time was healed beyond what was even to happen in the long run. It's a coincidence to open to the exact one or two fitting verses out of thousands and thousands of verses OVER AND OVER again (and over and over again). It's a coincidence to trust God to provide when your husband's in a treatment center and there's no paycheck for the mortgage, and then a check comes in the mail IN THE AMOUNT of the missing paycheck AT THE EXACT NEEDED TIME from some Bank of America form you happened to fill out just because it came in the mail almost a year ago, and it said you might receive about $300 dollars, nowhere close to the paycheck or mortgage amount that God provided! It's a coincidence that when you saw the truck about to hit you at the passenger seat of the car your sister was driving, the truck suddenly WASN'T right there hitting you. It's a "coincidence" that when in a car accident with your husband that looks like no one would survive, and in which your not so trusting husband suffers for years, you and the 25-week-baby in you are absolutely fine because you lay in the hospital room singing praises to God and trusting you'll both be fine (despite premature labor starting). It's a "coincidence" that after you finally learn that God cares even about the little things and can keep you from the stress of searching for lost items, so that you actually start asking him when you can't find something, suddenly instead of things staying lost for hours or days, you sense the EXACT location of things OVER AND OVER again exactly when you asked your loving Father. It's a "coincidence" that every victory you pray for is yours. It's a "coincidence" that whenever you need something revealed to you, it's revealed. It's a "coincidence" that when you leave your full-time job counseling suicidal kids in detention because you don't believe it was a healthy job full time, but then you miss it and you say to God, I think I'd be a better counselor dealing with suicidal kids only part-time, just then your sisters happens to give you the paper, and look, the person who replaced you there just left and out of the blue they decided to make the position a part time one. So you return to serve the kids with God at your side, and he tells you consistently he's with you, and remarkable things begin to happen with the youth. It's a coincidence when God reveals ahead of time who will fight against you but will not overcome you, and it happens just as he says. And it's a coincidence when he tells you the season is about to change and it happens just as he said. It's a "coincidence" that even many human desires are honored, so that long ago I asked God to cover over my poor eating habits (i.e., my habit of "eating like a man" as my husband would say and of binging on sweets) and not let me get fat, and so at almost forty I still weigh only a little over a hundred pounds. And similarly, it's a coincidence that I asked God to keep me youthful and attractive as I aged, and now at almost forty without even using anti-aging lotions, I'm consistently mistaken for about twenty-five, and my friends who are my age or even younger are mistaken for my mother and the grandmother of my young children! The list could keep going on! Wait, no, thank you Heavenly Father, you are awesome and great and have blessed your lowly and underserving servant beyond anything I could have imagined. I will tell of your goodness and blessing forever!
The first time I experienced the Spirit in a powerful way, I pushed it away also. I was in graduate school, in a prayer group of women, when suddenly I felt the sensation I was being moved inward toward these women, even though I wasn't moving, much like the feeling of your feet in the sand when the water comes. It freaked me out, and I kept opening my eyes to see what was happening, and each time the women's faces were closer and closer even though I wasn't moving. So I said to God, "This is too much for me, I wasn't raised like this, I wasn't in one of those churches..." And immediately it stopped, and I realized how foolish I was to push God away! Sometimes it's an experience like being "high", which I compare to the experience of when I was on laughing gas at the dentist (I never did drugs), so that it comes in waves, and whooshes, and heat, and actually could knock you over like the people you see on TV, only for me I'm so overly "self-controlled" that I stand stubbornly against it and never do anything "weird". And it makes me understand why it is written, "Do not be drunk on wine, but be filled with the Holy Spirit." And the Spirit makes you cry when nothing else does, and he makes you love people even who hate you and speak against you and wrong you in any way. He lets you feel things you don't otherwise, so that when I asked the Spirit to let me know what it was like to be a certain woman at my work who was so ridiculed by others for her appearance and manners, that I was filled with such overwhelming grief that I couldn't stop crying for her. Through the Spirit you're grieved by evil, you have a passion for the truth, and your passion is driven by love and the welfare of others. You have the courage to confront, the courage to stand against the crowd, the courage to face down demons. As a fearful and socially anxious soft-spoken person in my natural state, it is to God's glory that I fight the good fight, that I'll enter a room alone with a young man twice my size who says his demons say he should kill me, that I'll make myself a fool for the sake of the cross and for all those who one day will be saved by it!
Okay, that was long so I'll try to sum it up. God answers every prayer you ever have without exception, yet you were in a terrible car accident, you husband is in some kind of treatment centre and often tells you that you eat like a man, but your thin and young looking because that what you prayed for. You live from from paycheque to paycheque but don't want full time work and you prayed for that and got it, but you've never prayed for a lot of money and or a husband that isn't in a treatment centre.
Did I get that right?
And since God answers all her prayers, you would think she might have thought to pray for world peace or a cure for cancer or maybe to feed all the starving children.
Sure, but obviously she wants to be skinny and young looking. There is a person with value and integrity that we should getting advice from.
EncephaloiDead: Are you one of the evolution-pushers who demand unquestioning adherence to your beloved theories, and who manipulatively portray believers in the Creator as "stupid" so no one else will dare question the theories? Or why the remarks about my degrees and IQ? The degrees are from a state university (for my safety, we'll leave the state unnamed) and I honestly don't think I'm so intelligent because of either my IQ or my degrees, but they do give me just enough sense to recognize other people aren't so smart either and all their "learning" often amounts to nothing!
Since the Word and the Spirit and the message of the cross is yet foolishness to you, and you rely on human teaching, here are some quotes from experts, from scientists, from former evolutionists that might be of interest to you: As stated by Dr. Gary Parker, a biologist/paleontologist and former evolutionist, "If Evolution were true, we should find literally millions of fossils that show how one kind of life slowly and gradually changed to another kind of life. But missing links are the trade secret, in a sense, of paleontology. The point is, the links are still missing. What we really find are gaps that sharpen up the boundaries between kinds. It's those gaps which provide us with the evidence of Creation of separate kinds. As a matter of fact, there are gaps between each of the major kinds of plants and animals. Transition forms are missing by the millions. What we do find are separate and complex kinds, pointing to Creation" (Parker, G. (2013). Are there any "holes" in the theory of evolution? Yahoo Answers. Retrieved from http://answers.yahoo.com//question/inde … 234AAH83R9). Seiglie writes, "If evolution were true, then where is the evidence of different types of animals now "evolving" into other types? Where is the evidence of cats, dogs and horses gradually turning into something else? We do see changes within species, but we do not see any changes into other species. And, as mentioned, we see no evidence of gradual change in the fossil record either. Yet evolutionists continue to assume that transitional forms must have existed." Darwin himself had to acknowledge the necessary evidence that is clearly missing, stating, "The number of intermediate varieties, which have formerly existed on the earth, (must) be truly enormous. Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory." (Darwin, C. (1859) The Origin of Species (Reprint of the first edition) Avenel Books, Crown Publishers, New York, 1979, p. 292). As noted, "Despite the bright promise that palaeontology provides means of 'seeing' Evolution, it has provided some nasty difficulties for evolutionists, the most notorious of which is the presence of 'gaps' in the fossil record. Evolution requires intermediate forms between species and palaeontology does not provide them" (David Kitts, Ph.D. Palaeontology and Evolutionary Theory, Evolution, Vol. 28 (Sep. 1974) p. 467). "The more scientists have searched for the transitional forms that lie between species, the more they have been frustrated Evidence from fossils now points overwhelmingly away from the classical Darwinisims which most Americans learned in high school." (John Adler with John Carey. Is Man a Subtle Accident, Newsweek, Vol. 96, No. 18 (November 3, 1980, p. 95). "If throughout past ages life was actually drifting over in one continual stream from one form to another, it is to be expected that as many samples of the intermediate stages between species should be discovered in fossil condition as of the species themselves All should be in a state of flux. But these missing links are wanting. There are no fossils of creatures whose scales were changing into feathers or whose feet were changing into wings, no fossils of fish getting legs or of reptiles getting hair. The real task of the geological evolutionist is not to find 'the' missing link, as if there were only one. The task is to find those thousands upon thousands of missing links that connect the many fossil species with one another" (Byron Nelson, After Its Kind, 1970, pp. 60-62).
How is it that we can be missing by the millions these vital transitional forms, the whole basis for the anti-biblical ideas (those beyond the truths of change, adaptation, etc.) within the evolution theories, and yet still embrace the evolution theory as a serious consideration? When young people are taught by seemingly knowledgeable authorities that evolution, with its unrestrained imagination and fantastical theorizing beyond the simple truth of adaptation and change, is a fact and that there is no respected alternative, then too often they will believe what they have from the beginning been taught. It's almost as if they've seen this proposed evolutionary process; after all, they've been seeing man's drawings of the transitions their whole lives!
"If Evolution were true, we should find literally millions of fossils that show how one kind of life slowly and gradually changed to another kind of life."
What kind of complete and total idiot would ever claim that we should be able to find millions of fossils for any specific species (or believe it, for that matter)? Whether changed by evolution or not, there simply is not anything like that kind of quantity of fossils for anything. It is, after all, extremely rare for an organism to fossilize at all, let alone for us to find it after it has and recognize it for what it is.
Sorry, typical theological nonsense from someone either lying through their teeth or not understanding paleontology or the chemistry of fossilization. You pick which one.
Not at all, evolution is not being pushed by anyone, it is an explanation of how all living things came to be as they are today. I don't need to portray those who believe in creators as, they are perfectly capable of portraying that entirely on their own.
You're perfectly free to question evolution, but you have to actually understand it, first.
Sorry, but I found it astoundingly contradictory, your claims of having BS in anthropology, sociology and psychology, and an MA in counseling psychology and high IQ to your posts here.
Those beliefs don't have a monopoly on foolishness, there are a great many religions that are just as foolish, if not less.
As opposed to non-human teaching?
Yes, I'm thoroughly aware this is a very tiny minority of scientists who believe in magic. But, there is a vastly huger group of scientists that don't.
Unfortunately, we are very lucky to have any fossils at all, considering the process required to make them. As an alleged paleontologist, Parker should have known that. He should also know there is no such thing as missing links.
The "god of the gaps" argument?
It is also a false conclusion to say separate and complex kinds point to creation, they don't, there is no bearing or connection whatsoever between them.
Again, you keep trotting out the fossil record with quotes from that very tiny minority of magical thinking scientists. Those quotes are from the 1970's, too.
Such hostility! Kindness is not popular around here, is it? I'll begin with this: No, I've never prayed for money. Yes, I only want part-time work because I am the mother of a four-year-old son and a one-and-a-half year old daughter; and I asked for part-time employment because I believed it was best when working with suicidal kids (it was healthier, I was better able to help them, etc.) Yes, I prayed for youth and protection from my eating habits as I aged (if you know women at all, you get that this is a deep rooted desire). Yes, God grants even requests such as these, and don't you like to give gifts to your children? "If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!" (Matthew 7:11) No, I don't get everything I pray for, but it sure is "coincidental" how many answered prayers PEOPLE OF FAITH get! While I do pray for individuals hurting, no, I don't pray for world peace, a cure for cancer and such things because 1) wars and cancers and such were already prophesied and will continue until the end no matter what I pray, and 2) because peace and the cure for all disease and death are already awaiting the time when God creates the new heavens and new earth. I do speed Jesus' coming, praying "Come, Lord Jesus, come" precisely so that suffering people will suffer no longer. It is better for you, though that he delays his coming, as it is written, "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). It doesn't make me "special" for God to answer my prayers, he's promised to do good to those who love him and believe what he says! Yes, we go through difficulties as believers or unbelievers, and we believers need these for establishing our faith as genuine, for developing perseverance and character, for bringing us eternal glory when we respond with continued faith, etc. If I am spared an accident, I'll praise God; if I'm in an accident and spared any harm, I'll praise God; If I am killed in an accident, wow, then I'll praise him face-to-face!
Your major concern is your appearance? Is that your gift to mankind? Please explain why a country which is largely Christian would also be largely over weight as well, given as you say a prayer would resolve the bodies ability to drop weight? Please explain why there are so many bald christians when a simple prayer would grow hair. Do you have any statistics to back up your claims? Are there simply no Christians in any hospitals?
So your answer is, basically, it's ok to pray that you get to be skinny while millions of children starve because Jesus will eventually get around to fixing that?
I don't say this very often, but my religion is better than your faith. The atheist non-religion is better than that faith.. Monkeys societies are better than that type of religion... not primate societies, actual monkeys. Hell, even insect societies are more caring.
Seriously? One day someone will fix the suffering so you will do nothing, even something as insignificant as praying, to stop it?
Do you OWN a Bible? Really? If so, go over, pick it up and find me where vanity is more Godly than helping-or even praying-for your fellow man. Go ahead, I'll wait.
Your post was to prove Poe's law... right?
"but it sure is "coincidental" how many answered prayers PEOPLE OF FAITH get!"
If you think most, or even any at all, of your prayers are actually answered, you might run a little test. Pray each night for something impossible under natural laws to happen and record the next day if it happens. Maybe for your car to run without gas in it or for God to instantly put a new addition on your home.
At the end of the year look back at the 365 prayers for impossible events, things that absolutely must be attributed to God and not chance, yourself or the neighbor's dog, and count how many happened. If it's more than zero, the world will beat a path to your door.
So Rad Man, I focus on the glory of God, truth, and love; I pray for people who are sick and hurting, I pray for the lost, I help kids who are suicidal, I'm kind even to those who insult me, etc., and you want to manipulatively pretend my focus is on my appearance? I talk with God continually about all manner of things. Because I've happened to ask God to cover over my binging tendencies and keep me thin and youthful despite my poor habits, and he's honored my request, you want to say my "major concern" is my appearance, and pretend I think this is some kind of gift to others? I'm sorry if I've offended you, but why the insults, why the hatred, why the manipulation and false portrayal of me? I'm not sure this country is largely Christian any longer and answered prayers are based on pure and simple faith, not the label of "Christianity". If God answers this prayer for one, and that prayer for another because it is part of his plan, why would all his people have the same answered prayer? Are you always so manipulative, Rad Man, and would you be so obnoxious to my face if I gave testimony to the various prayers God had answered for me? Why so hateful and dishonest?
Sorry, If my words hurt you, they were not intended to hurt at all. But you just call me hateful and dishonest and I'd like you to either apologies or show me and others where I was hateful and dishonest.
You are the one claiming that it's part of Gods plan that you are slim and youthful, I certainly didn't make that up.
Melissa Barrett: I pray regularly for starving and hurting children, I give them money even though I have little; you're intentionally manipulating my statements - I can't pray for an END to all the hardships of life when God has already made it clear that this awaits his coming! Because I happened to ask God to cover over my poor eating habits when I continually speak with God about all manner of things, you're pretending I therefore don't care about hungry children, and you're judging me and saying you're better? From my first interaction with you, Melissa Barrett, in which you tried to "one-up" me in my prayers for Wilderness, you've been a hater. This is not born of the Spirit, this is not keeping the unity, this is not fruitful! As it is written, when you judge and condemn others, you judge and condemn yourself! Have I attacked anything but the THEORIES of evolution? Have I spoken against anything but godless evolution theories and the hatred and insults of others? I hope not, though I admit the natural part of me has certainly thought of some pretty fitting remarks! I will consider that maybe I shouldn't care about my appearance AT ALL. But don't pretend I don't care about hurting and starving children, and unless you're praying for them and helping them all your waking hours, you probably don't have much room for judgement!
Actually, 20 percent of my waking hours doing volunteer work is my goal. I hit it most weeks. The other time is dedicated to raising my family and earning a living. So, much like bringing up your IQ and college degrees in YOUR attempt to one up, I actually- according to your "challenge"-do have room to judge. Just for the record though, I wouldn't have brought up either that or my IQ if you didn't throw down the gauntlet.
I feel no particular need to have unity with others in my faith. I have no desire to defend them when they are being offensive. Jesus didn't say I had to stand with my brothers and sister's when they were going against his teachings.
Praying for someone to become Christian against their wishes is vaguely like rape. At best, it's pretentious and holier-than-thou, at worst-if granted- it is changing their faith against their will. Also, if you are arguing against evolution as a representative of the faith, I'm gonna call you out on it. You are not representing Christianity, obviously. You are only representing YOUR opinions. Christianity has no view on Evolution.
Now what you said was: While I do pray for individuals hurting, no, I don't pray for world peace, a cure for cancer and such things because 1) wars and cancers and such were already prophesied and will continue until the end no matter what I pray, and 2) because peace and the cure for all disease and death are already awaiting the time when God creates the new heavens and new earth.
Which sounds an awful like you are saying you don't pray for world peace, a cure for cancer and such things. Likely because that's EXACTLY what you said.
Does God give you information that you can use in your conversations?
It's not nice to call people names like that.
Wilderness: "Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. The tempter came to him and said, 'If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread." Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 'If you are the Son of God,' he said, 'throw yourself down. For it is written: 'He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone'.' Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test'." (Matthew 4:1-7). What I will do, Wilderness, is continue in faith, continue to both praise God my Heavenly Father and continue to call on him to meet all my needs. I'll continue to pray for you, as well, because, Wilderness, it is you He's laid on my heart to pray for with urgency.
And besides, if you never test your prayers you can always claim that many are answered and you can make the claim without lying. Make it out of ignorance, yes, but without lying.
Have you ever considered mentioning that you have never actually checked or counted when you tell people that your prayers are answered? Or that it is usually you providing the answer you attribute to God?
Convenient, isn't it, that you are precluded from testing the claims of the bible or the very concept of a god? I guess were I proclaiming that everyone should worship a nonexistent creature, and follow the orders I claimed it gave us all, I would demand that no one test MY words, either...
is being skinny despite unhealthy eating habits and maintaining a youthful appearance despite natural aging a need that you're asking God to meet? Or is it just a vain, slightly selfish desire of the flesh, which humanity is told to try and overcome? In the meantime, there are children dying of starvation every single minute. THEY have needs, which, if not met, will result in their death. Will gaining weight or aging normally (a process that you believe God put in place) result in your quickening death if unmet? Do you not think that God has more important things to concern himself with than your inevitable weight gain and wrinkle lines
Here's the thing. If you want to keep trim and healthy, get off of the couch and do some exercise. Don't binge on sweets. Commit to a healthy eating pattern and do some exercise. Why ask god for these things, when you're perfectly capable of doing them for yourself with a little bit of dedication and commitment. Why waste your prayers on something that YOU can control, and use them for something that can actually make a difference if they're successful. Asking god to keep you skinny is nothing more than refusing to take responsibility for yourself. I don't recall Jesus ever saying that god will take care of all of your vain desires. I do recall him standing up for personal responsibility, and the assurance that genuine NEEDS would be met.
I believe you are truly beautiful and would love nothing more than to give you a huge hug. You continue to amaze me.
I love you too, Rad :-) *hugs* Get your butt down from the great white north and come to florida.
Actually - I'll make it even easier. I'll be in Maine the week after next :-) That's almost in your neck of the woods.
Back off Dudley, she's my hopeless dream. Neither of us have a chance, but I have a better chance than you.
Devon says "according to the sovereign state of NH she's mine, she has my name. back off".
All in good fun, of course :-)
You mean the book that teaches us how to beat our slaves?
I've read that more people have died by communist countries then religious wars
that wouldnt surprise me either. i think on the large scale of things religion is probably not as high on the mass crazy killer list and some would like it to be.
You do know why Hitler killed all those Jewish men women and children right?
Belief in superior and sub races triggered the Holocaust. You might find this link interesting.
http://www.thedarwinpapers.com/oldsite/ … 12HTML.htm
Look at OP's posting history. All he does here is slag of Mormons. Very negative.
Where is the hate. Growing up as a Mormon all of this was hidden from me. I was told if i read or entertained things like this i was not going to the celestial kingdom. The lds church really wanted to keep you under their thumb. Read what i tell you believe what i tell you. The bible tells us to test all things even itself. Hatred no... Sharing what was hidden from me all of my life... Yes.
The hate is in coming to this website and going on and on and on about it. Seriously, you never even made a hub. It is like bursting into a knitting circle, never knitting anything, and spending two whole years yelling about the freemasons. I don't care is you get over it and move on, I just don't want to hear about it any more.
Give me an honest answer, and leave any of the whole "I NEED TO TELL YOU THIS AND THIS ABOUT MORMONISM" spiel out of it for five minutes.
Why are you here? On Hubpages, specifically. There's like four Mormons here, a bunch of religious people and atheists who like to yell at each other and will never change their opinions and a whole horde of people who don't give a flip about Mormons or anything you'll ever have to say. So what's the point? You are getting absolutely zero return out of this shoddy investment and it just baffles me. Surely if you really wanted to spread the word about whatever it is you're going on about, you would do it in a much more productive manner-- where more people who actually care will see it? Where you're more likely to actually convince someone or something? I mean, this is just basic economics here. Absolutely nothing is being achieved here and the absolute waste of effort is getting to me more than the actual anti-Mormon novel you appear to be writing over a series of threads. Like, go somewhere else where people will actually give a care.
Why have you chosen such a shoddy vehicle to share a message that appears to be so important to you? Why Hubpages when there are so many better options?
Shannan I just need to share what i have learned. The Lds church needs to be exposed. All of my comments reflect hubs. I am showing that all of the Lds stuff is made up. And thing to distance Lds from the true and only God. Like a told you before this page is something i do a few minutes a week even a month. My stage is on the campus of byu....well was my stage. But before i left we had over 70 student that were teaching the falsehood of the Lds church. That is teaching.... and it is still going on now. Shannan you see hate what i am doing is showing that the Lds church are hiding and lying to people. Something simple like the America Indians are Jews. Which is a lie. It's a lie... You don't see that?
My name is Shanna, not Shannan. I know what I believe and I know why I believe it. I will not try to convince you of anything, nor will I explain myself. I am firm in my convictions. You cannot sway me or alter my beliefs, that I promise you.
That's a very interesting thing to say, however it does show closed mindedness. You would be hard pressed to find a single non-believer who wouldn't immediately become a believer if a God ever presented Himself to the world, whether it was Jesus, Allah or Zeus, they would alter their beliefs in a heartbeat.
That is fine. My job is to get those who are not as brain wash as you to see the whole truth. And it has worked and is still working. With in two years almost my whole family have left the Lds church. 4 generations!! Over two hundred that i and my friends have seen. This will not stop.
Since Israel is located on the Asian Continent - what's the big deal?
I think he is serving a noble purpose. He is attempting to educated people about the practices of the Mormons and possible even educate some of the Mormons. Secret handshakes one needs to get into heaven? Stories make up so men can have multiple wives and slaves. Blatant racism.
These things need to be exposed. Why does it bother you that he exposes them?
I don't see "your religion is wrong" and "my religion is right" as serving any higher purpose. It is swapping one indoctrination for another.
I get that. Set aside that he/she just switched sides and look at the information he is giving. The more I read about the Morman's the more I'm flabbergasted. Did you know that the only reason they ended the blatant racism is because Jimmy Carter told them that they would take away their tax exemptions?
Here is an interesting read and one you may want to use sometime:
How I Escaped the Mormon Temple
After being in the LDS Church for 30 years, I began reading the New Testament. What was there shocked me.
On a Friday in January 2006, at home in Alpine, Utah, I received a phone call from my third son, Micah, that changed my life.
My family and I loved living in "Zion," the result of a decision that my husband, Michael, and I had made as young adults to join the Mormon Church. For eight years, I had been a professor at Brigham Young University (BYU), the flagship school of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS). Michael was a high priest, a bishopric member and high counselor, temple worker, seminary teacher, and Sunday school president. Our first son, Josh, and second son, Matt, had served the church's obligatory two-year evangelizing missions. Our daughter Katie pleased church leaders as well with her faith in Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith.
I looked down on Christians who followed the Bible. They had part of the gospel, but I had the fullness of it. I kept the laws and ordinances of Mormonism. When I took the sacrament of leavened bread and water each week at our Sunday meeting house, I was letting the sin janitor sweep away all iniquity. I believed the Mormon Church secured my eternal life.
Life in Zion
My husband and I had joined the LDS Church at age 25 after Mormon missionaries knocked on our front door. We had both attended Protestant churches growing up, but we rarely if ever read the Bible. We assumed that joining was a Christian option (85 percent of LDS converts come from biblical Christianity). We were unprepared to counter the missionaries.
Immediately and always active in the church, we raised our four children in the faith in Indiana. Serving untold hours in church callings, reading Mormon scripture, tithing, attending meetings, keeping a health code, and doing genealogy so we could redeem the dead in the temple—these were a few of our offerings to the Mormon God.
In all the years of serving the church, I thought I knew Jesus. We believed he was born first as a spirit child to Heavenly Father and Mother, and came to Earth to receive a body. He atoned for our sins in the Garden. Like the Pharisee in Luke 18, I thought I knew him better than others through the exclusive instruction I received in the temple.
In 1999, I completed my doctorate in education and was hired at BYU. We moved to Zion.
And life was good there. On Sundays we sang:
Great is his glory and endless his priesthood.
Ever and ever the keys he will hold.
Faithful and true, he will enter his kingdom,
Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.
Sound like Jesus? Nope, this hymn is about Joseph Smith. Here's the first verse:
Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!
Jesus anointed that Prophet and Seer.
Blessed to open the last dispensation,
Kings will extol him and nations revere.
Like Heavenly Father and Jesus before him—like Smith himself—Michael was working to become a god. This is one reason we attended the temple regularly.
Then, something unexpected interrupted our perfect Mormon life.
Three weeks before the end of his two-year mission, Micah called to tell us he was being sent home early—a horrific disgrace in Mormon culture. He had been reading the New Testament. There he encountered a different Jesus than the one I was taught about in Mormonism—a God of grace, not of works, so that no one can boast. Micah was riveted.
To a roomful of missionaries at his parting testimony, Micah had professed faith in Jesus alone and not the Mormon Church. He told them he had found a deep and genuine faith—one that didn't include Mormonism. It did not go over well. Church leaders told us that Micah had the spirit of the Devil in him, sent him home, and subsequently, back in Utah, invited us to bring him before the high council. To prevent excommunication, we put Micah on a plane out of Utah. His expulsion put our family in turmoil.
When he boarded the plane in Utah to begin a band and ministry in Florida, Micah pleaded, "Mom and Dad, please read the New Testament." We commenced. As I read, I became increasingly consumed by reading about the God of grace. I barely ate or slept. It's all I wanted to do.
After Micah's expulsion, questions about Mormonism that I had harbored for years—about my patriarchal blessing, about the church's history of racism, about the scope of Christ's atonement—kicked into high gear. I heeded Micah's advice, and began reading the Bible in translations easier to understand than the LDS-authorized King James Version.
In John's gospel, I read, "These are the very scriptures that testify of me yet you refuse to come to me to have life." Salvation did not require the Mormon Church, only Jesus. I began to see clearly that Mormonism taught a different gospel than what the Bible taught.
When I read what Jesus said in John 6:44, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them," I knew I was being drawn—sucked, pulled, conveyed, transported. In physics, an event horizon is a boundary beyond which the gravitational pull is so powerful that there is no escape. This was my event horizon. As I read the Bible, my appetite for God grew exponentially. I felt myself drawn to him at an ever-increasing speed.
Then, on a chilly October evening in 2006, Michael and I settled in with Katie in our basement to watch the movie Luther. My heart pounded as I learned of the reformer's struggle against the Catholic Church. I seemed to be facing a similar struggle: Did I believe the Mormon system of obedience to laws and ordinances would secure my forgiveness? Or did I believe what the Bible taught, that Jesus alone was the Way, the Truth, and the Life?
That night, speeding toward the point of no return, I lay face-down on the carpet, arms extended, and cried out to Jesus, "I am yours. Save me." Instantly I was sucked over.
From that point on, God became personal. I talked with him. He sometimes answered. I had stark dreams. Once I surrendered my will to his, he seemed to be gently leading me somewhere. He showed up at unexpected times and taught me through other people and through circumstances, through the Word and during prayer. It was bizarre at first—unnerving. I'd never experienced anything like this. Some days I pulled back to catch my breath. He got me a job I hadn't applied for so I could leave BYU. He sold our home the day after we resigned from the Mormon Church. This must be what Christians call a personal relationship with Jesus.
I discovered this Jesus could not be confined by the laws and ordinances of a religion. Jesus is real. This palpable relationship transformed me.
About a month after Katie came to Christ, she dreamed of a stone courtyard in the shape of a circle. She saw herself as a small girl, led by a man through the one entrance, which looked like a sheep gate. There were small pools of blood on the ground, but she wasn't afraid. This courtyard was where Jesus had been beaten and whipped until near-death. The blood was his.
Katie looked right at the man, who was wearing a cream-colored robe and a shawl over his head, and immediately trusted him. He knelt in the dirt to gaze at her, directly at eye level. Taking the shawl off his head, he touched it to the bloodstained ground and gently began to cover her with the blood, starting with her forehead. He smiled at her as if she were the joy set before him.
This is the Jesus my family and I now know. He loves me personally. I devour his Word and find him there. He knows me and teaches me. I do not need the laws and ordinances of the Mormon Church to be saved. Only my beloved Jesus.
Lynn Wilder is the author of Unveiling Grace: The Story of How We Found Our Way Out of the Mormon Church (Zondervan).
Retrieved from: http:/wwwchristianitytoday.com/ct/2013/December/how-I-escaped-Mormon-lds-temple.html?paging=off
I am not a Mormon, but having been referred to as an "Indian" in the past (I prefer Tsalagi,Cherokee,or Indigenous) you may find my opinion interesting.I see the Book of Mormon ,and all religions as a collective Moral Technology. Like all technologies it continues to evolve. The question of truth or fiction is an interesting topic for debate, but as far as the usefulness of a particular religion is concerned,I feel it has no bearing.Without morality we are doomed as a species.Consequently,any religion that inspires good will among men is essentially "true" because it has fulfilled it's purpose,regardless of any falsehoods that may arise along the way.
But the Book of Mormon inspires racism, slavery and polygamy. What purpose is that fulfilling?
I haven't read the entire Book of Mormon,and it's been a while, but if what you are saying is true,then according to my definition of Moral Technology, ( must teach positive values that are beneficial to all) The Book of Mormon is a false teaching in all respects.
The bigger the lie the more will believe it. - Joseph Goebbels (Adolf Hitler's Propaganda Minister)
Even the Apostle Paul taught throughout all Asia, converting many to the Gospel of Jesus Christ (Acts 19:26). The Israelites had access to Asia and those whom Paul converted, were adopted into the House of Israel by covenant (Romans 9:4; Ephesians 2:11-22).
I rather doubt that Paul made it to what is now China, Tibet or Siberia. Not even Korea or Vietnam and probably not to most of Russia.
Rather extreme exaggeration, then, much like the world wide flood destroying all life that we know never happened.
There is no reasoning to be made among people who don't even believe in what the Bible says, so It's kind of useless even trying to share anything.
I have much I can share, but I cannot share it here where there is so much strife. Instead I will pray for you and all the others who display so much hatred and persecute the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Matthew 5:44-48). So much so that you feel a need to continually cause contention which is contrary to what the disciples of Christ are asked to do (Proverbs 26:21; Titus 3:8-11; 1 Corinthians 3:1-3; 10:30-33; 14:33; 2 Timothy 2:14-26; James 3:13-18).
We (as members of the Church) know that we should work toward forgiving those who did this offense and let God be the judge who rewards all of us according to our deeds. The Savior said to His disciples, "I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good unto them that hate you and pray for them which despitefully use you: That ye may be the children of your Father which is in Heaven...(Matthew 5:44-45). "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another" (John 13:34-35; see also Chapter 15). The Savior has spoken so clearly on forgiving others that there is little room for private interpretation. He said, "I the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men (D&C 64:10).
There is nothing that will bring more joy to us than to be kind, considerate, charitable, long-suffering, and ready and willing to forgive the trespasses of others against us, and there is nothing that will bring more condemnation to us than to harden our hearts and to be bitter and vindictive in our feelings towards those by whom we are surrounded.
On several occasions before Jesus Christ was crucified He tried to comfort and console His apostles concerning persecution. Jesus said, "These things I command you, that ye love one another. If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you" (John 15:17-19; see also John 5:16; 15:20).
"Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold your reward is great in heaven: for in like manner did their fathers unto the prophets" (Luke 6:22-23). These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world (John 16:33).
I think persecution is kind of strange because the people who promote it think that they are doing God a service and yet it goes against the very commandment the Savior repeatedly admonished His disciples to keep, and that is, to love one another.
I believe that all of the scripture references I have given reveal that we can't hate, revile, harm or persecute others and then say that we are disciples of Christ" (Matthew 7:15-23; 24:5-15). Christ warned that there would be others that would come in His name who were not really His disciples or prophets, He said, "Ye shall know them by their fruits."
In conclusion, I believe it would be a much better use of time for these people to come and add their faith with the faith of others to find ways to work together for the cause of good. I know that people can change and they can become an advocate for good. The Apostle Paul persecuted the church of God in his past, but turned around and became a strong advocate for building up the Lord's kingdom upon the earth (Galatians 1:11-16; Acts 9:10-22; 13:9).
I sincerely forgive the people who feel like they need to persecute others this for what ever reason. I pray that the Lord will help them recognize they err and forgive them. May God bless you all.
Are you attempting to use your religious beliefs to shut people up? Censoring people using your personal beliefs?
Rad Man, I will be happy to answer your question if you can deny that posts like this are only meant to shut Mormon's up; or in other words cause others to fear so many don't seek for the truth that we have (Isaiah 29:13).
Forums like this are designed to educate people on the goings on of a specific religion. If the religion has nothing to hide then there would be no harm in discussing the practices. Mormons are free to show the errors that are being submitted.
Theses post are just information. Not to shut down Mormon. What have i posted that is not true?
The bible is the truth. That is why Joseph smith send it is full of errors. Because he wants to hide the truth from Mormons in order to spread his own doctrine.
how do you prove that the Bible is the truth when it contradicts itself, is not historically accurate and condones genocide and slavery which in today's terms are morally repugnant? Or do you just want to SAY it's the truth and not know how to back it up?
Tell me some contradictions. Of the top of your head. Don't search the internet for now.
Who went to jesus tomb? When did they go? What did they find? What did they do with the information? Unless you're claiming that Jesus died on two separate occasions, John says that he died on the preparation day for the passover, while the three synoptic gospels say that he died on passover. What were his last words. Now. .. since I did it all off the top of my head as requested, you cannot consult the Bible or any apologist material to answer them.
Aside from all of that, you failed to answer my question, only my accusation. How do you prove the Bible is true? Even if you can do mental gymnastics to excuse away the contradictions, it doesn't prove that the book is true, and without the veracity of the Bible, you have nothing.
(You have nothing) lol. Give me a chance. Ok passover day was also called preration. Preparing for the three meals of that feast. It is somewhere in leviticus. To explain more i have to open my bible. But ill do it later. And in order to give you a seat on other account I must open my Bible. Give me a little bit.. Why do i know its true? The prophecy of Isaiah Where is says Israel became a nation again , will have to defend themselves against Five Nations , That they would defeat the five nations Due to the power of God. That they were received the nation without a fight. This all occurred in 1948. I have a lot more but I must open my Bible. Give me a little bit. The Hyksos ( I know it's spelled wrong.. but I'm not using my internet) expulsion resembles the the Israelites
being released from Egypt. the Pharaoh of the times they was
brother of Moses ahmose. the order of the plagues are the proper order that the plagues would occur. Est..... Let's not be nasty Lits just share information
Here's the problem with biblical prophecy. When you havea bunch of people in power who are familiar and accepting of the texts, is easy enough to make those events happen.
There is no evidence that the israelites were ever enslaved in Egypt, especially in mass numbers like the Bible portrays. Furthermore, if the exodus story were true, (and even jewish scholars claim that its not, and certainly not in the way the story dictates) God took credit for hardening Pharaoh's heart, making all the plagues happen.
Do you want to know what I have? 18 years in the church, two years in the mission field, four years of Bible college and ten something years of study after realizing I'm an atheist. It would be unwise to dismiss that knowledge or experience.
I've spent ~20 years in church, myself. I always wondered why the pastor only taught from very select passages (Psalms/Proverbs, first few chapters of Luke, all of Paul's letters), and I was always miffed that the other books got the shaft, so I hunkered down, took my time, and read them for myself.
It didn't take long for the Bible to strip away my faith. Mistakes all over the place, horrific laws that the church never talks about, historical inaccuracies...it wasn't pretty. As Penn Jillette once put it, "[W]e need more atheists, and nothin' will get you there faster than just readin' the damn Bible."
No offence to you, but you credentials me nothing. Judas and Satan also had good credential. This is not a low blow I am not saying you are a bad person it is just a statement.
Do a study on the hyksos and the hyksos expulsion, If you want. I think it could be the exodus story. scholars say one thing one minute then something elso another minute. It all ends on their own beliefs.
you say that you mean no offense, and then compare me to Judas and Satan - two of the biggest villains in the Biblical story. What were Judas' credentials? Did he have credentials? Satan is interesting, since the story of his fall is not even in the bible at all. It's jewish legend. But if that legend IS true, then it is irrefutable proof that you can know with absolute certainty that a god exists, but you can still choose not to follow him.
So scholars just choose what they want to believe? It has nothing to do with the evidence or finding out the truth, right? It's all just faith?
I Knew you were going to get mad.. This is what i ment. Judas knew alot about Jesus because he walked with him. Satan knew alot because he was with God. That is what i ment. You know alot because you studied. that being said : "No offence to you, but you credentials me nothing. Judas and Satan also had good credential. This is not a low blow I am not saying you are a bad person it is just a statement." to your last questions
Yes, Yes and no.. But they choose... yes and no...
There is a big difference between knowing alot due to study and knowing because you actually knew a person (God)...
I can know alot about Shakespeare, but I would only know what was written...Knowing him personally would completely change my "knowledge" of him.
Sorry to butt in...But this conversation hits home to me as well...
First of all, I'm not mad. Amused, maybe, but certainly not mad.
Secondly, you told me that I had nothing, when in fact i have a relevant college education in the field.
Thirdly, if you have to repeatedly say that you're not trying to offend, you know that your statement is potentially offensive. out of all of the biblical characters, you choose (quite specifically) the two worst. That's hardly a coincidence.
In the absence of being able to walk and talk with anyone from myth or history, an education is the only way we are able to gain knowledge and understanding. Discrediting the educated just points to the fact that your education on the subject (if any) does not compare, so you attempt to minimize its importance. Incredibly easy to see through.
We should be politicians. We are always getting sensitive. It does not matter what paperwork you have people can still make mistakes. I used the most extremes because they were the most knowledgable. I was trying to give you a compliment because of your
Me.. I left byu and end of sophomore year. Iam in the process of completing my criminal justice degree in a few months. for the past 4 years i have been studying theology (online lcu) and ofcourse my
own private time with the
lord. Well I've been on this page long enough.I have to get insome work done I'll be back tomorrow
Is it a contradiction as you see it, or is it that both this and that are true? If one witness said to you, "He stood up when he saw his wife" and the other witness said to you, "He ran when he saw his wife", are they contradicting each other, or did he do both - first he stood up and then he ran. What might appear a contradiction at first isn't necessarily so if you dig deeper or let the Spirit guide you. The Word is historically accurate, even if it means the concept of "day" refers to a period of time and/or our dating methods are severely flawed, as they are found to be when dating rocks of known age. Slavery is not condoned in the Word. But just as Jesus humbled himself even unto death on a cross to benefit us, so also the one who is a slave is called to take the same attitude as that of Jesus Christ. In the end, the first will be last and the last will be first. As for genocide, our lives are ALL for a very limited time here on earth; if God decides to take some earlier than others, what is that to you? He gave them life; he didn't owe it to them, so if they were killing or otherwise harming his people (the Israelites), why would he not act if he so chose to? But the ultimate glorious plan was to bring people from all nations to himself, and so through Jesus Christ there is no longer slave nor free, male nor female, Jew nor Gentile (all people other than Jews), but all become one, just as it is written! God's Word is flawless and brings light to our souls, but without his Spirit it will be meaningless to you. So my prayer for you, who may yet be my brother who has not yet been born, is that God will open your spiritual eyes and you will see the one who is the Word - Jesus himself! In Jesus' name I pray, Amen.
So in other words, there are no contradictions as long as you can spin things and explain the obvious contradictions away. If you need to do somersaults in order to make all of the pieces fit, it's not intellectually honest. There are contradictions and then there are things that can be spun to mean anything you want. You cannot be a married Bachelor. These are contradictory and exclusionary terms. Similarly, you cannot have someone die on two completely different days, unless they died twice. You can not have a group of people go to the tomb at several different times - or one person alone, unless they are describing different events, and they are clearly not.
Pray for me if you must, but it doesn't do any good. Prayer has the same success rate as random chance, and your chances are the same, no matter what God you pray to.
Incidentally, a book that instructs you on how often and how severely to beat your slaves which are your property CONDONES SLAVERY, and it doesnt matter how you try to weasel out of it.
How many times have you read the bible, and what is your degrees in? Please don't preach at me. I've heard it. Do you respect my right to disagree with you and come to the conclusion that I don't buy any of it?
By the way, as to the conquest of Canaan, you have it backwards. See, when god "gave" the land to the Israelites, the problem was that it was already inhabited. The children of Israel were the aggressors, acting on the command of god to exterminate all of the people already living there - including their animals and their unborn children. Divine command theory is great - you can use it to justify a large number of atrocities - but if you buy the Divine command theory, you can't say a dang thing about Muslims who, on the orders of their god, fly planes into buildings. The only thing you can say is that they're following the "wrong god". But that's just an assertion, and they would likely say the same thing about you.
Where did you find a verse giving instructions to beat slaves in the Word? I've read the bible in its entirety (most of it many times) and have never seen that verse (sorry, I have no degrees in biblical studies; my BSs are in anthropology, sociology, and psychology, and my MA is in counseling psychology). I hope this helps regarding the accounts of Jesus' death and resurrection: it says in Matthew 28:1, "After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb..."; When Jesus appeared first to them, he instructed them to go and tell the disciples, which they did; following this, Jesus appeared to the disciples. In Mark, it specifies that Jesus appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons, and that she went and told the others. Why would one writer mention both Marys and the other mention only the one? Does it really take summersaults to explain? Maybe this will make sense - I'm a small, soft-spoken, shy person and my husband is a large, loud, popular man. If someone ran into the two of us at an event, one of them would say "I ran into Aaron and Cat at the concert", while another would easily say, "I ran into Aaron at the concert". In truth, we were both there, but Aaron was more noteworthy to the witness. So Mary Magdalene, noteworthy because of the fact that Jesus had cast out demons from her, was the only one mentioned by one of the authors.
The land in Canaan (Israel) had already been given by God to Abraham and his descendants (Genesis 12:7 and 13:15) to be an everlasting possession and was based on a covenant. We don't always get the significance of this sort of thing, but it's interesting to note that even when God creates the new heavens and new earth, as he has promised, there will be a new Jerusalem.
I hate for people to be hurt (I'm not really naturally inclined to good, but God did design me with a merciful heart). I sympathize with Muslims, since I understand the power of the deceiver and how easily we all are deceived, but I also hate violence and am angered when anyone, especially my brothers and sisters in Christ throughout the world are hurt. When Muslims kill people by orders of their "god", I am grieved.
There is One true God, and I don't say this because someone told me, but because I intimately know him and have experienced him. In fact, my earliest memories are running around outside in his presence. I've experienced his presence throughout my life, and I've even experienced supernatural events and healings myself. Here are a few examples: (1) When my ankle wasn't healing well after a third-degree sprain, I began singing this hymn to God "take my feet and let them be swift and beautiful for thee." Suddenly pain like I hadn't felt since the actual sprain weeks earlier began shooting all through my ankle and scared me to death! Well, from that point on, my ankle was healed and I never had any of the problems people said I'd have (like discomfort during certain activities or when it rained). And this was only one of a couple of supernatural healings I've experienced. (2) When counseling youth in juvenile detention, we often spoke about God, and interesting things began to happen - If I felt led to say to a young thief that it is written that we can't serve both God and money, then out of the THOUSANDS of verses in the bible, I'd immediately open to the verse that said exactly that! When the youth and I would talk of God, suddenly at the same moment we'd both be overcome with warmth, waves, jolts, etc., so that we would stare at each other in disbelief and say "Did you just feel that?" God is real and there is absolutely nothing a person anywhere could say to convince me he doesn't exist because I'm sealed by his Holy Spirit, who has already revealed truth to me.
I will pray for you because I believe God has planned every interaction, and that he has planned for me to pray for you. I'll pray with tears and pray earnestly because contrary to stereotypes, TRUE Christians LOVE and love more deeply than you can imagine. Yet we love only a fraction of how much God loves. The truth? God is and was and is to come. The truth? God loves you more than I could tell you, even as I say he loved you enough to give up his rights as Lord and come down as the man Jesus and die a horrible death on a cross so that you who right now denies him might one day turn to him and be made righteous and live with him in the glorious life that follows this brief one! Yes, I know you've heard it, but my sincere prayer is that you will finally HEAR it, that is, hear it with ears that discern the truth, and that God Almighty will draw you to himself and open your spiritual eyes. I can respect your right to believe anything you want, but because I love you and because I love the God who loves you, I can't let it go at that... So even if nothing I say convinces you right now, I will continue to pray for you and pray for you and pray for you... and claim your soul for Jesus, because it is written that it is not God's will that any should perish but all come to a knowledge of him, and it is written that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us and we have what he asks; therefore I ask, Father, because it is your will and because you will give what I ask according to your will, that this one will be saved! In Jesus' powerful name, Amen!
Exodus 21:20-21 NLT
If a man beats his male or female slave with a club and the slave dies as a result, the owner must be punished. But if the slave recovers within a day or two, then the owner shall not be punished, since the slave is his property.
Maybe this is simply splitting hairs but i don't see that as a mandate to beat slaves. I don't think it's a mandate to own slaves. I bet if you look you can find a more appropriate verse for rebuttal.
Mandate, no, but it is certainly instructions on how to do it right, in a way acceptable to God.
Implicit in that is that it's OK to both own and beat slaves.
Right, but it does say that you can beat your property with a club as long as the property doesn't die as a result.
Maybe not a mandate to beat slaves, but just enough to make sure they recover in a day or two. I'm sure a lifetime of these kinds of beatings would have no effect at all on the slave, at least not enough that we can recover from owning slaves in a day or two.
Our laws tell us if we beat some one so bad that he dies you will go to jail for life for murder. If you beat someone just as bad but he doesn't die you might go ro jail a few days for battery assault. And you might not even go to jail. Now that being said. Does our law condone injuring someone as long as you don't kill them?
Condone? No. Provide for a lesser penalty? Yes.
The key is that our law prohibits injuring someone, with penalties. The bible encourages such action, just limits it to non-life threatening injuries.
Firstly, it's illegal to own slaves and secondly it's illegal to even hit anyone let alone with a club.
The prescribed punishments for offenses in Exodus were death, restitution where appropriate, or being exiled (I don't think they had jails, or much ability to otherwise "punish"), so it seems when it says the person who beat their slave should not be "punished", it is likely saying they should not be put to DEATH unless the slave died. We also do not consider the death penalty for injuries, but only murders. This does not imply that God encourages or is pleased with violence, and if you read his Word in its entirety, you will see that his greatest law for us is LOVE!
I'll take it you didn't notice he condones slavery?
When options for punishments were few and the law was enforced by ordinary men, so that they had to be kept simple, to say that the offender should not be "punished" for beating a slave unless the person died, likely means they should not be put to DEATH (restitution wouldn't apply) unless the person died. This absolutely does not imply slavery is condoned. It means murder, but not assault, is to be punished with death. It doesn't mean God himself won't punish, it doesn't mean he looks favorably on the aggressor, or that he wants anyone hurt; it simply means he is only authorizing the death of the one who commits murder, but not the one who commits assault. God was on the side of Joseph, not the side of his brothers who sold him into slavery, and not the side of those whose slave Joseph became. So it always is with God - "the first will be last and the last will be first". And that is why the blessings that by law went to the firstborn were repeatedly given by God to the youngest; why the first chosen Jewish nation will come to God behind the latter chosen "gentiles" (everyone who is not a Jew) who accepts Christ; why women who were created after men are blessed and are filling up the churches and taking the lead in spiritual roles; why the poor were given the gospel first and are called blessed and used by God; why those who are rejected and lowly are called by him. As it is written to the spiritual leaders in Jesus' day, the prostitutes and tax collectors were entering the kingdom ahead of them! Such is God's heart and God's plan. God is on the side of the least, and the slave by the world's standards is the least, so when Jesus returns, how honored will be the slave! This is God's heart - "The least will be the greatest!"
You go, Deb. I'm not religious, but you have as every bit as much right to celebrate your religion as I have not to practice any religion.
I grew up in a Mormon town in western Colorado, and 90% of my friends were Mormon kids. They invited me to special milestones they experienced in their Church and I'm still in contact with them today.
The simple fact is that Mormons are more family oriented than many others. They're often more forgiving than others (in my experience). They create communities that are clean, where children are raised to think of others and where children respect their parents and other elders.
People should be free to believe (or not believe) as they wish. I've always held that were I ever to become religious (it's not an option), I would choose the Mormon faith because of its contribution to society.
Keep your head up - and keep in mind that your faith depends on the belief of the unseen. There's nothing wrong with that. Those who will attack your religion on its tenets are typically not very happy with their own lives.
To each their own I say. If your faith offers a sense of family and provides comfort, enjoy it. This is your life after all. You get to pick what makes you happy.
The only way one can choose wisely is if they know all the facts.
Were that true, RM, we should all cease making decisions immediately. Because not one of us knows "all the facts." Instead, the smart thing to do is to make a decision on the "facts" that we feel are legit, and not tell others what facts they should or should not accept. It's that old, "let he who is among us who is innocent cast the first stone," thing.
I've been around awhile and I've yet to find a stone-caster who was innocent.
All i am doing here is sharing what was hidden from me when i was a Mormon. I ll even go as far as saying i was lied to.
Yes Mormon help others out but they act like they are the only ones. Look at the salvation army... They have helped countries. You don't see them boasting that they are Methodist. No... Mormon 's do that... They want everyone to know what they did.
Family based... All faithes teach about the importance of family. But they teach it from the bible not from a made up book that tells you that you will be a god some where and continue to have babies with several other women. How family oriented is that?
When i left the lds church it was like leaving everyone. Everyone was told to stay away from me... Everyone.. But that's ok. Most of the have left the church too.
Worship what every you want but know what you are suppose to believe. Like the lds church make you believe everything they believe if not you are questioning the faith and must find a testimony of Joseph smith to get in good standings with the church.
The church doesn't make you believe everything. The church doesn't make you do anything. Everything you've mentioned here, I am aware of. I was told it by professors and teachers. I'm sorry you feel that you were lied to or that things were kept from you. I think the church has realized more recently that they hurt themselves when they try to do damage control and sweep some things under the rug and has made more of an effort to be more transparent, because none of what you post is ever some shocking revelation (at least the parts that you don''t exaggerate or use out of context).
Do they still have work to do? Yes. The church is not perfect, and I do not expect it to be. I question things all the time, and I still completely doubt certain aspects. Yet, I still believe many of the basic principles. Of all the churches I have to been to (from Lutheran churches to non denominational-- even Catholic mass in the Vatican!) I have found that I prefer the feel and many of the teachings of the Mormon church. It was the best fit for me. Am I brainwashed? I don't think so. I've taken several years now to deeply consider my religious beliefs and compare them to other beliefs. I've searched deep into things people have told me, and what I've been told growing up and I have largely settled on beliefs that I am comfortable with. Just because the Mormon church is included in those beliefs does not mean I am brainwashed or that I am ignorant.
There is something to be said for the more unorthodox Mormons who believe basic truths in the church but are more open minded. There is also something to be said for discourse instead of rumor-mongering.
That's fair, but do you mind if I ask you a few questions because I'm rather fascinated by Mormonism?
Do you believe Joseph Smith is now a God at a seat beside God?
Do you believe that the native Americans are Israeli tribes from a few thousand years ago?
Do you believe the Mormon scripture 2 Nephi 5:21 in that it states that God cursed the Lamanites with dark skin?
Do I believe he's now a God?
Not currently. I do believe that we all have the potential to be like God, however. We cannot replace God entirely, but I find I rather like the idea that one day (after the end of the world/Second Coming/whatever you subscribe to) we can be given our own worlds to be caretakers of. However, I'm not completely concrete on this whole concept. It's a bit nebulous for me and I'm still conceptualizing it.
Do I believe that the Native Americans are Israeli tribes from a few thousand years ago?
This is another one where I'm not 100% sure on. I think it's plausible that there is some Israeli heritage--perhaps not primarily. I don't know enough about migrations/ancient early history to really have made up my mind on this yet. When I get a break from school this is something I want to study more in depth, on my own. I don't want to be swayed by either side just yet, since I don't really tend to believe what people tell me straight away until I've studied it out on my own. I've heard about the DNA thing and many other studies or facts on either side.
Do I believe 2 Nephi 5:21?
You know, I don't think I do- at least not literally. I think it might mean something else- something that made the Lamanites stick out so the Nephites were aware that they were a bad group. I've heard a variety of mixed responses from Mormon church leaders that go both ways (some say it's literal, others suggest it isn't) so I've sort of formulated my own ideas. I don't think God would curse them with dark skin and then leave that around today. I don't think skin color was ever supposed to be a good/bad indicator. Something about that just doesn't seem fair or right to me. That being said, I don't presume to know the mind or will of God on anything. Those are just some vague conceptions I've cobbled together on things things that I'm still considering. You (or someone else) also mentioned the priesthood or lose your tax exemption thing, which I've been aware of for as long as I can remember. This is one of those things that makes many Mormons uncomfortable, I should think. There were several Mormon leaders who were openly racist. They weren't perfect men and they had major shortcomings. I think the priesthood ban may have been born out of those racist sentiments, but I'm just not sure. It's a sticky subject for many Mormons, but I think making up excuses for why we do certain things (so we can explain it away) hurts the members when they have to face the reality that leaders and the church mess up too.
It's kind of like the whole Word of Wisdom thing. As you probably know, Mormons don't drink coffee or tea, and there's not really any explicit reason for why we don't. As a result, many Mormons invented their own explanations, like "caffeine is a drug, and is harmful, so that's why we don't drink coffee or tea." I grew up hearing that and parroting it and never drank Coke or Pepsi. Then I got to college and realized that it was just an excuse and caffeine was perfectly allowable. It was kind of a funny thing for me to realize and suddenly I was a lot more aware of how frustrating it can be when you see someone blindly doing something and insisting it's right, without any cause. The main impetus was when I went home and ordered a Pepsi at dinner with my parents and they sternly lectured me about caffeine consumption. I was confused and angry because there was no bag on caffeinated beverages. They switched tactics to "It's not healthy! It's addictive!" and I pointed out that the unhealthy food they were eating fell into the same category, but I had never once heard them berate me for ordering a fatty cheeseburger or anything like that.
Anyway, that was a tangent, but just some interesting observations I've picked up on.
Shanna, kudos to you for being willing to openly and honestly answer questions about your chosen expression of faith. I do my best to keep an open mind and so the same with my own.
I think there is a huge misconception that everyone who chooses to identify with a certain denomination or religion does so like some robot. I question many of my own church doctrines and dogmas and refuse to defend its shortcomings except to point out that it's leaders are human, and thus subject to human failings. Like you, I believe the biggest problem is the cover it up, make it go away attitude.
But you are wise to wonder and to question and to seek.
The Church is not covering anything up, but there are many anti-Mormon groups out there who twist things around to make others think so. They have particular motives in mind for doing this sort of thing and some have just been misinformed and join in their efforts. I think that the worst kinds are those who used to be members, but aren't anymore. They kind of have an advantage because they have once received the orthodox teachings of the Church which helps them to create false accusations (1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 3:1-5; Hebrews 6:4-12; Jude 1:10-25). This kind of circumstance reminds me of the scripture in (1 John 2:18-19). Which says, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but] he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the father also. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father "
This letter was given right before the great apostasy occurred when groups of people persecuted the Apostles and Church members and killed many of them (Acts 8:1-4; 12:1-4;13:45-46; 1 Corinthians 11:22; Galatians 1:6-12). In attempts to keep the surviving members steadfast in the gospel that the Apostles had taught and delivered to them, they sent epistles to warn their members that others would pervert their teachings and try to lead them unto another gospel, which wasn't really another gospel. They just corrupted the Apostles doctrines and made unauthorized changes in Church organization and priesthood ordinances (Galatians 1:6-12). Just like the New Testament leaders, we don't advise you to go to someone who left the Church to find out what we believe in.
I personally do not see any difference in what is happening in our day with anti-Mormon groups towards the LDS Church. The reason being that we believe that the Church has been restored and the gospel that Jesus and His Apostles taught has been restored in its fulness. That means that God has restored the Church by calling prophets and Apostles and ordaining them with His Holy Priesthood to lead and guide His Church (Ephesians 4:11-14). What the Bible tells and warns is just as significant to us today as it was in that time.
When other people are teaching about our doctrine and they do not have authority to do so, they are doing what so many others did in Biblical history. This message of apostasy makes up much of the New Testament. The Apostles were warning the members about what was going to be taken away from the true church when they were killed. One thing that was going to be withheld after the deaths of the apostles was the priesthood authority in which those prophets and apostles held (2 Thessalonians 2:1-17). God gives priesthood authority to worthy male members of the Church so they can act in His name for the salvation of His children. In essence, the prophet acts as a steward to oversee the household of God here on earth.
The Apostles were unable to visit their congregation in the Churches they had established in the surrounding areas of Jerusalem because of persecution, so they sent other worthy priesthood holders with their epistles to establish the surrounding branches in their doctrine. An epistle in its best sense is more than a letter; it is a formal teaching instrument.
The message was that there was an apostasy from the truth that the apostles delivered and that it would be restored in it's fulness. It was restored when God called a young man named Joseph Smith as a prophet. Though Him the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ was restored on the earth.
I believe that the people who have been misinformed can know this for themselves by reading the Book of Mormon which is another testament of Jesus Christ. It restores the "plain and precious truths that have been lost or taken away in attempts to pervert the right ways of the Lord." (1 Nephi 13:24-27, 38-41). The Bible and Book of Mormon together help confound false doctrine and lay down contentions and establishes peace. If you want to prove that for yourself you will have to prayerfully read it in faith. Near the end of the Book of Mormon, the prophet Moroni teaches us how we can know the book is true: "When ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost" (Moroni 10:3-4, 5).
why do you assume that we haven't read the Book of Mormon - or the histories (including the arrest for fraud) of Joseph Smith? Just because we're not Mormons doesn't mean that we haven't educated ourselves on a lot of their teachings and beliefs.
I did with real intent and having faith in Christ pray and ask God whether these things were true. Yet I'm not Mormon. So the answer I was given seems to be different than the answer she was given.
See, that was always something I was confused by. There were many good people I knew with great intentions and sincere hearts who read and prayed about the Book of Mormon but just didn't get an answer about it. I didn't understand how that could be when I was younger. It was so confusing to me that Mormons and Catholics and Lutherans and more could be just as equally committed to and convinced by their religious beliefs, and yet all claim they were right. It's never added up to me. Religion is hard work.
As I've gotten older, I've sort of worked off of the Mormon idea that good people of other faiths are saved as well. It's not an idea that we talk about a lot in church or in religious classes, but I've heard it several times growing up and I like that idea. I'm not entirely sure how it would work. It's weird to sort of have this Mormon framework that I've grown up with and to find that it wasn't always the rigid framework I thought it was when I was younger.
What about that secret hand shake? Can't get in without it.
Sorry Shanna, I must have missed this last night in the huge wall of text this thread has become. I'm half Universalist so my answer to your first question is pretty easy . Of course I don't claim I'm right. Just that that's my conscious, spiritual voice, moral compass....whatever you want to call it, said that Mormonism wasn't my path. I did investigate the religion... or at least consented to have a missionary's version of it taught to me. I did ask, honestly seeking, and just got a different answer.
My faith is largely a works-based faith in which "All Good Dogs go to Heaven" so I believe that good people of all faiths eventually end up in the same place. I do understand rigid frameworks and the surprise that comes when you find that it's not all black and white
Thanks for answering Shanna. Talking to you is always a pleasure.
Studying the scriptures is different from reading a novel or text book. If we want to have the convincing power that comes through the Holy Ghost, then there are some steps that we have to take to have that witness (1 Corinthians 1:4-16). I believe that the teachings of God [the scriptures] are everlasting, which means that they are eternal, unchangeable, and without end (1 Peter 1:25; Revelation 13:6).
I believe the scriptures can answer any question or resolve any concerns or dilemma that we might have, but the answers might not come right away. There are a couple of reasons for that. First, the gospel must be learned in a line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little process (Isaiah 28:10). That process doesn't happen overnight and cannot be rushed.
We need to be patient as we exercise our faith in Christ to do what it takes to find the answers we are seeking for.
If we want to understand the scriptures, we must pray before we begin to study and we must seek for the Spirit to give us insight and understanding. Our prayers for guidance will be only effective as our efforts to be receptive to the whisperings of the Holy Ghost.
We should ponder on the things we read
We should learn how to recognize and listen to the promptings of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:12-16). Joseph Fielding Smith taught, "The Spirit of God speaking to the the spirit of man has power to impart truth with greater effect and understanding than the truth can be imparted by personal contact, even with heavenly beings. Through the Holy Ghost the truth is woven into the very fiber and sinews of the body so that it cannot be forgotten" [1954-56]. End of quote.
As we read and study the scriptures, the Spirit can confirm in our hearts the truth of what we are learning (Luke 24:32; Acts 2:37; John 14:16-17, 26; 15:26).
God hears and answers our prayers. He may not always answer as we expect, but He does answer—in His own time and according to His will. Those answers often come through the still, small voice of the Holy Ghost. We cannot rush the things of the Spirit. This is another reason why learning the gospel is a process. We need the help of the Holy Ghost. He is a witness of God's truth and through His power, influence, and promptings we can gain a testimony of what is true about God and His Son, Jesus Christ (John 5:32; 15:26; 16:12-15; Acts 5:32; 1 Corinthians 12:3).
I know that redemption comes to each individual through the merits, mercy, grace and atonement of Jesus Christ. We can trust in the Lord to help us find the answers we seek. He is our Savior and Redeemer. He loves everyone of us and wants to help us, and He will send the Holy Ghost to help us if we will just ask in faith and do our part (Luke 11:13).
so that doesn't at all address my question.
It does, however, seem like you're saying that in order to understand the true message of "scripture" then you have to believe in it first. How do you come to that belief, if you're unable to understand the scripture first? Can you think of anything else aside from religion that mandates that you believe first, then get proof later? With so many competing "scriptures" out there, how do you pick which one to believe only so that you can understand what it says or teaches? How does anyone convert to an alternate religion if that's the case? If you have to believe first, isn't that nothing more than confirmation bias? You already have the belief, so anything you read is just going to confirm what beliefs are already there.
How do you determine what the "holy spirit" is confirming, and separate that from your own consciousness? Here's the thing. believers from every religion in the world from Mormons to Catholics to Muslims - all believe on a personal level that they are getting confirmation of their beliefs through personal experiences. They can't all be right - but they can all be wrong.
All Christian religions teach truths, they just don't have the fulness. It makes since that others reading the same scriptures would get a confirmation from the spirit of the truths they are reading about. That doesn't mean that they have the fulness of the gospel which includes apostles and prophets who hold proper priesthood authority.
Yes, they all teach truths, even if few and far between.
They also all teach lies, which are MUCH more common. And there is no evidence that a single one teaches the fullness, or even has it to teach.
But you do right? It's seems funny that everyone seems to KNOW the truth, it's just a different truth.
so are you saying that there are a multitude of different "spirits" running around, each giving confirmation to the people that already believe that they exist, and this is why all religions claim to have a "spirit" behind them while teaching contradictory and exclusionary messages? If there is only one truthful "spirit" why does it not tell everyone the same thing?
Each individual has to determine how the Holy Ghost is working with them, but latter-day scripture gives us some clues to what we can do to recognize the witness of the Holy Ghost and gain a testimony. Joseph Smith received a revelation for Oliver Cowdery stating that he had already received a divine manifestation of the truth of Joseph's testimony of the plates which is the record found in the Book of Mormon. He said, "Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter: What greater witness can you have than from God?" (D&C 6:23; see also Luke 24:32; Acts 2:37; 17:27). The Lord told Joseph Smith, "But behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right. But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me." (D&C 9:8-9).
I bear record that when true doctrine is understood through the teachings or inspiration of the Holy Ghost it changes attitudes and behavior because we know for ourselves that we are receiving a witness of truth. When we invite the Holy Ghost to fill our minds with light and knowledge, he "quickens us" and opens our understanding of the scriptures (Romans 8:11; 15:13). He enlightens and enlivens the inner man or woman and as a result we notice a measurable difference in our soul; we feel strengthened, filled with peace and joy (Romans 14:17-19). We possess spiritual energy and enthusiasm, both of which enhance our natural abilities (Acts 20:28; 1 Corinthians 12:3). We can accomplish more then we otherwise could do on our own. We yearn to become a holier person. It is that testimony that we gain through the witness of the Spirit along with the understanding and wisdom we gain from the scriptures that confounds false doctrine and lays down contention (Matthew 22:29; John 5:39; Acts 17:11; Romans 15:4-13).
I know that the Father, and His Son, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are one in will, purpose, doctrine and effort (John 7:16-18, 8:28-29; 10:23-38). Just as Jesus Christ did nothing of Himself but as the Father had taught Him, the Spirit does the will of the Father and has the power to teach only the things that he hears. This means that we can prove all things for our self through the witness and teachings of the Holy Ghost because he only reveals what God want Him to reveal (John 14:16-18, 26; 15:26; 16:13-15; Ephesians 5:9-18; Colossians 1:4-29).
In conclusion, the Holy Ghost has the power to help us make our hearts and minds as one because he witnesses of the truth (John 17; 1 Peter 2:21; 1 John 2:6; Revelation 19:10; Ephesians 1:17-23; Romans 12:1-5). I believe we need to be one with them in purpose, doctrine and effort in one Church that the Lord restored to receive all of the promised blessings of the Gospel in it fulness (Ephesians 4:11-30). That means we need to seek for and receive His fulness and apply it into our lives if we want to enjoy the Holy Ghost in its fulness (Acts 2:37-42; Jude 1:3).
I personally was referring to the cover up/make it go away mentality of another Church, but thank you for your response. I've been exposed to Mormonism and twice have read through the Book of Mormon prayerfully. I've come to different conclusions than others.
A thought from my distant past as a child Christian, on the caffeine thing.
Many times in other sects, such things are used as a method of setting a member of that sect apart from the public. It gives them a feeling of "sameness", different from the heathen, that is quite helpful in maintaining membership. Where I grew up it was women's hair and dress code, along with a total ban on TV's and, a little earlier, radios.
It is quite possible that early Mormon VIP's started the whole caffeine thing for just that reason.
Thank you so much. I really appreciate your honesty.
Because of your candour please forgive mine, but I find it fascinating as I previously mentioned.
Because you like the idea of being a God you think it might be possible? I like the idea of being spiderman but understand it's impossible.
First of all there is no evidence of the tribes mentioned in the Book of Mormon while it is possible that a small percentage of DNA came from that region it would have been some 17 to 20 thousand years ago or longer.
2 Nephi 5:21 is very specifically about skin colour this can easily be backed up. The priesthood ban was most certainly born of racism and the racism came from the Book of Mormon and I believe one other Mormon book. Do you think this doesn't need to be exposed?
Not allowed to drink coffee, but racism and polygamy is tolerated? Who made up those rules? Some who doesn't like coffee, but is a racist and wants many wives?
Thanks again for the candour and please don't take my statements or questions as being anything other then my honest opinion and interest.
I dunno. I wouldn't say that I think it's possible just because I like the idea. I'm not really sure what's possible and what isn't, exactly. Having complete faith wasn't always my strong suit. I have to analyze everything. All I know is that I like the idea and I would like to believe that it is possible.
As for the skin color thing-- I'm sorry, but I'm going to let that go. I don't want to delve in to that right now. I don't want to discuss it when I'm not entirely sure of it myself and I don't want to say anything I might regret. I also don't want to risk incurring someone's wrath or pointed remarks. Sorry, but the religion forums have made me a bit head-shy in discussing things there. I'm still developing my ideas there.
As for racism, it's not currently tolerated in the church and I wish it wasn't tolerated back then either. That's all I'm going to say. And polygamy...don't get me started on that. That is one thing I struggle with, and many Mormons do. They sort of leave it alone because it's a huge stumbling block and they don't know how to deal with it. Most of them wouldn't be for it today and I think if it was reinstated, many Mormons would leave. It's complicated, basically. Very complicated. You have just as many questions as I do about it. I love my church's strengths, and the weaknesses and pitfalls, simply put, confuse me and make me sad sometimes. I don't always understand them and often I struggle with them, but there are benefits that I like. Like I said earlier, the Mormon church has the majority of the things I like all in one go and I feel at peace when I attend church. I draw comfort from many of the things I learn.
Admittedly, it stings a lot when people criticize me for finding peace in the Mormon religion. It stings when they assume I'm brainwashed for finding comfort in Book of Mormon verses or in humming a hymn. They assume that I haven't struggled deeply with my beliefs and they assume that I have happily and blindly skipped down Mormon lane without a second thought. I've grown up in non-Mormon areas and I've struggled with open hostility towards me because of my religion, and that's a hard thing to grow up with. I don't mean to tell a sob story here-- just explain sometimes how afraid I am to talk openly about my beliefs. So many people don't want to discuss, or ask honest questions. They simply want to poke holes everywhere they can, as if I've never poked holes there myself. They come to me with an agenda and want to strip away my beliefs from me and tell me that I can't have them, even when I try my best not to ever hurt anyone with them. It's just a struggle and I appreciate your politeness-- it honestly means a lot because I don't get it often.
The church is like a lot of things in life. There are things that I love and want to experience more, and there are the things that I struggle with and don't always understand.
Thanks again Shanna, you have helped and taught me plenty. I wish nothing but well and longevity and hope you continue to question everything. You've got my deepest respect. I don't agree but I do respect.
Thank you! I really do appreciate that. Thank you for asking questions and making me consider things without being harsh. I don't think I've ever been so open about the things I wasn't sure about, and I appreciated the opportunity to sort of get it all out and look it over. I can see I have a lot of work to do. I am very comfortable with respectable disagreement and I wish all the same to you!
If you ever have any other questions, I'd be happy to share my muddled thoughts.
Hi Shanna. I just want to start by saying you are a beautiful creation of God, who loves you so much you will only fully understand it when you are with him at last! I love God, who has been my God all my life (my earliest memories are running around outside in God's presence). I rely on the Word for truth - the written Word of God and the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us, that is Jesus Christ. It is God's Spirit who leads us into all truth and who will help us test the spirits to see which are from God and which to stay away from. I've been to many churches and they all have their problems, but I hesitate to criticize too much because the church is God's bride, and since even men who love their wives don't take well to criticism of her, I don't want to criticize God's "wife" as is the "in" thing amongst both believers and unbelievers (and anyway, we, God's people are all the "church" and the "bride"). I am uncomfortable with the Mormon religion for the following reasons: It directly contradicts the Word of God, which it claims belief in (e.g., It is written in the Word that we will not marry in heaven, but will be like the angels; yet Mormonism teaches otherwise); The only version of the Word the Mormon is permitted to read is the King James Version, even though all are translations of the Hebrew and Greek, so that there is nothing "special" about the King James Version, and I believe this restriction is intentional so that the average person will not understand the Word and will not see how it contradicts the Book of Mormon; I believe that in the Word it is evident that we are awaiting Jesus' return as the next revealing from God (not John Smith) and we are warned about all the false prophets and false teachings in the end days; I admire the strengths of the majority of Mormons, namely their greater morality than most others, but I fear the reasons for this greater morality - that they are striving to be so "good" in their own efforts because they are taught that righteousness is based on their works and not on the grace that came through Jesus, the only one who can make us truly righteous through his sacrifice on the cross; I am not so interested in what any person, even pastors, have to say, but I'm interested in what God himself through his Spirit-inspired and maintained Word has to say, but I noticed over time that a Mormon friend of mine didn't seem to know much about what God had to say and was constantly commenting about what the "leaders" of the Mormon church had to say. The words of any man or woman will contain both truths and falsehoods, but the Word of God is flawless and understood through God's Spirit. I pray that God's Spirit will shower you and that you will come to a complete knowledge of the truth, which is found in Jesus Christ alone. In humility and love I ask our Father to reveal himself to you and take away any doubts and confusion. In Jesus' name. Amen.
I just want to reply and say thank you for the loving, kind thoughts. I appreciate you thinking of me and wanting me to be happy and free of doubts. I do agree with many of the things you have said, but instead of marring your words with disagreement, I will accept your good intentions instead and leave it at that.
God bless you shanna... In no way do I want to hurt you. What I am sharing is about The faith not the people. But you need to know what you are spreading (LDS Doctrine). You love the Lord, I see that. Just keep this in mind when you continue to study... Jesus died for our sins Yes!!!!! a big yes. But they killed him because he did not conform to the laws of the land. Even to death. Look at what the LDS church does. Why did they end polygamy? Because the U.S. Government told them that they would all go to jail if they continue this practice.
Blacks allowed to receive the "priesthood" President Jimmy Carter told the LDS church, If they continue their discrimination of blacks, the church would lose their tax exemption. Then all of a sudden, hallelujah, blacks are allowed to receive the priesthood.
This is not how God works…
I don't know if it's how God works, but the OT full of discrimination and slavery all of which is condoned and sanctioned by the God of the OT.
In Shanna's defense, she is not spreading anything. She was honesty and openly answering questions that we're asked of her.
We believe that the Book of Mormon contains the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. That it is a restoration of the orthodox laws, ordinances, covenants and doctrines that Jesus Christ and His chosen and ordained apostles brought forth during New Testament times. If this is true, then it should show the same kinds of examples that are given in the Bible. I can think of two different stories in the Bible, one that shows where God marked a person and another one where God caused the skin of a group of people to turn black. Each of these examples show the power that God has to change someone’s skin color or mark their skin
1. Cain was cursed with a mark. The Bible does not say in what manner he was marked. However, it does tell with certain expressions of scripture that God placed that mark on Cain to distinguish him from the other children of Adam, which was to remind them of what would happen if anyone tired to slay or kill him (Genesis 4:13-15). This reveals that God has the power to mark his children. It doesn’t matter if we do not know what that mark looked like. It was visible to others. It was given because of transgression and that Cain feared of being slain because of that transgression.
2. Jeremiah laments about the miserable estate of Jerusalem in [Lamentations]. He tells of the Lord causing their skin to turn black. These scriptures show the power of God to do so and why he did this and other things. God first sent prophets which admonished the people to be obedient and then gave them warnings of what would happen if they rejected their teachings. When the people rejected their teachings, God kept all of his words given through the prophets and the penalties were given. It was because of their transgressions, sins, iniquities that God fulfilled all the warnings that He said He would do.
The Book of Mormon has a story which is similar. It tells that, “The skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers [Laman & Lemual], which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men…and their brethren sought to destroy them. Therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a mark upon them, yea, upon Laman and Lemual and also the sons of Ishmael, and Ishmalitish women…And this was done that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their brethren, that thereby the Lord God might preserve his people, that they might not mix and believe in incorrect traditions which would prove their destruction…And it came to pass that whosoever did mingle his seed with that of the Lamanites did bring the same curse upon his seed, Therefore, whosoever suffered himself to be led away by the Lamanites was called under that head, and there was a mark set upon him. And it came to pass that whosoever would not believe in the traditions of the Lamanites, but believed those records which were brought out of the land of Jerusalem, and also in the traditions of their fathers, which were correct, who believed in the commandments of God and kept them, were called the Nephites, or the people of Nephi, from that time forth. And it is they who kept the records which are true of their people, and also of the people of the Lamanites…Thus the word of God is fulfilled, for these are the words which he said to Nephi: Behold, the Lamanites have I cursed, and I will set a mark on them that they and their seed may be separated from thee and thy seed, from this time henceforth and forever, except they repent of their wickedness and turn to me that I may have mercy upon them…Now I would that ye should see that they brought upon themselves the curse; and even so doth every man that is cursed bring upon himself his own condemnation” (Alma 3:6-19).
I personally have not problem believing the scripture in 2 Nephi 5:21. If we study the Old Testament, we would find that Jeremiah, Isaiah, and other contemporary prophets of their time warned the people of Jerusalem over a span of several hundred years about theirs and Jerusalem’s outcome if they did not repent of their iniquities. The book of Lamentations shows how the people of Jerusalem had a similar experience as the Lamanites. In order for the curse to be lifted (Not necessarily the color of their skin) both would have to repent of their iniquities and turn back to the Lord and keep His commandments.
Lamentations 1:8. 18 say’s, “Jerusalem hath grievously sinned; therefore she is removed…The Lord is righteous; for I have rebelled against his commandments: hear, I pray you, all people, and behold my sorrow…
Lamentations 2:17 say’s, “The Lord had done that which he had devised; he hath fulfilled his word that he had commanded in the days of old; he hath thrown down, and hath not pitied: and he hath caused thine enemy to rejoice over thee, he hath set up the horn of thine adversaries.
Lamentations 3:40-47 says, “Let us search and try our ways, and turn again to the Lord. Let us lift up our heart with our hands unto God in the heavens. We have transgressed and have rebelled: thou hast not pardoned. Thou hast covered with anger, and persecuted us: thou has slain, thou hast not pitied. Thou hast covered thyself with a cloud, that our prayer should not pass through. Thou hast made us the off-scouring and refuse in the midst of the people. All our enemies have opened their mouths against us. Fear and a snare is come upon us, desolation and destruction.”
Lamentations 4:6-9, 11 says, “for punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, that was over thrown as in a moment, and no hands stayed on her. Her Nazarites were purer than snow, they were whiter than milk, they were more ruddy in body than rubies, their polishing was of sapphire: Their visage is blacker than coal; they are not known in the streets: their skin cleaveth to their bones; it is withered, it is become like a stick. They that be slain with the sword are better than they that be slain with hunger: for these pine away, stricken through for want of the fruits of the field…The Lord hath accomplished his fury…”
Lamentations 5:10, 21-22 says, “Our skin was black like an oven because of the terrible famine…Turn thou us unto thee, O Lord, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old. But thou hast utterly rejected us; thou art very wroth against us.”
Jeremiah wrote with certain expression of scripture to reveal that the Lord was the one who had devised a famine which turned their skin black. It happen to a people that were not as valiant, who persecuted His prophets, rejected their teachings and in many instances, killed them. Their circumstances give a unified account of how possible it is for God to change the color of someone’s skin when He is not pleased with them. If He chooses to mark or turn someone’s skin dark for whatever His reasons or purposes may be, He will do so if that is His will. He only did this for the good of His children, and mostly to keep them in the right way or to turn back to the Lord. I do not doubt God’s power to do so. I am not ashamed of this doctrine. It doesn’t make me hate people with dark skin. It doesn’t make me think that they can’t have the same blessing as I do if they accept the gospel of Jesus Christ in it fulness and obey it. God loves all of His children and His arms are always open and ready to receive those who will exercise their faith in Him and in His Son, Jesus Christ.
Interestingly enough, I've heard that same explanation using the same Bible verses before. I was researching a paper on the biblical motivations of the KKK in the south. If you go to their website, you'll see the same thing.
Not sure if that will mean anything, but it's certainly a similarity in beliefs that is worth exploring. I don't believe the Klan accepts Mormons though, they don't consider them pure in God's eyes, so I wouldn't think the verses from the book of Mormon would fit into their philosophy. Still they are of a remarkably similar philosopy, none the less
The reason why you will see other religions having similar concepts is because there was an apostasy. With the deaths of the Apostles, priesthood keys and the presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth. The Apostles had kept the doctrines of the gospel pure and maintained the order and standard of worthiness for Church members. Without revelation and priesthood authority, people relied on human wisdom to interpret the scriptures and the principles and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ. False ideas were taught as truth. This apostasy eventually led to the emergence of many Churches. After centuries of spiritual darkness, truth seeking men and women protested against current religious practices. they recognized that many of the doctrines and ordinances of the gospel had been changed or lost. They sought for greater spiritual light and many spoke of the need for a restoration of truth. They did not claim, however, that God had called them to be a prophet. Instead, they tried to reform teachings and practices that they believed had been changed or corrupted. Their efforts led to the organization of many protestant churches. This Reformation resulted in an increased emphasis on religious freedom, which opened the way for the final restoration. The Savor's Apostles foretold this universal apostasy. They also foretold that the gospel of Jesus Christ and His Church would be restored once more upon the earth. When the circumstances were right, Heavenly Father called a young man named Joseph Smith as a prophet. Through Him the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ was restored to the earth. Just like in New Testament times, a living prophet directs the Church today. This prophet, the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is the authorized successor to Joseph Smith. He and the present Apostles can trace their authority to Jesus Christ in an unbroken chain of ordinations through Joseph Smith.
Joseph lived in the United States, which was perhaps the only country which had religious freedom at the time. It was at a time of great religious excitement in the eastern United States. His family members were deeply religious and constantly sought for truth. But many ministers claimed to have the true gospel. Joseph's desire was to know which one was right. The Bible taught there was "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5). Joseph attended different churches, but he remained confused about which church he should join. He later wrote: "So great were the confusions and strife among the different denominations, that it was impossible for a person young as I was... to come to any certain conclusion who was right and who was wrong...In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how do I know it? (Joseph Smith-History 1:8, 10).
As Joseph sought for truth among the different denominations, he turned to the Bible for guidance. He read, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him" (James 1:5). Because of this passage, Joseph decided to ask God what he should do. In the spring of 1820 he went to a nearby grove of trees and knelt in prayer. He described his experience: "I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me...When the light rested upon me I saw two personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other-This is my beloved Son. Hear Him!" (Joseph Smith History 1:16-17).
In this vision God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ, appeared to Joseph Smith. The Savior told Joseph not to join any of the Churches, for they "were all wrong" and "all their creeds were an abomination." He stated, "They draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof" (Joseph Smith-History 1:19).
Even though many good people believed in Christ and tried to understand and teach His gospel, they did not have the fulness of truth or the priesthood authority to baptize and perform other saving ordinances. They had inherited a state of apostasy as each generation was influenced by what the previous one passed on, including changes in the doctrines and ordinances such as baptism. As God had done with Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and other prophets, He called Joseph Smith to be a prophet through whom the fulness of the gospel was restored to the earth.
We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelist, and so forth (Articles of Faith 1:3, 4, 5, and 6).
I testify that I know because of the Spirit that dwells in me, that some essential things had to happen for the Church to be restored. I am only going to share a few, but many others can be added.
While Joseph Smith translated the gold plates into English, and Oliver Cowdery wrote it down, they learned that one needed to have authority to administer the ordinance of baptism. On May 15th in 1829 Joseph and Oliver Cowdery decided to go into the woods and ask the Lord more about this important ordinance. Oliver wrote: "We diligently sought for...the authority of the Holy Priesthood, and the power to administer in the same."
As they prayed, John the Baptist appeared and ordained Joseph and Oliver to the Aaronic Priesthood by the Laying on of Hands and saying, "upon you my fellow servants, in the name of the Messiah, I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.
Through this process, Joseph and Oliver received all the keys that were held by John the Baptist. John was the valiant prophet who had baptized Jesus Christ. When John died, he still held the keys of the Aaronic Priesthood. That meant he still had the power and right to restore that priesthood power and authority. That authority had been taken from the earth after the deaths of the apostles and is why it was important that he return to confer it.
A few weeks later Joseph and Oliver went again into the wilderness area where they were visited by three of the original apostles that Jesus Christ had chosen during His mortal ministry. It was during the Saviors ministry that Peter, James, and John received the keys of the Melchizedek Priesthood from Jesus, which holds the power and authority over all the offices of the Church and are necessary for governing it (Matthew 16:19). They continued to hold these keys after the priesthood authority had been taken from the earth anciently at their deaths. By the Laying on of Hands, the New Testament Apostles ordained Joseph and Oliver to the Melchizedek Priesthood, including the keys of the apostleship to be special witnesses of the Savior (Acts 1:22). Through this process, Joseph and Oliver received all the keys and powers that were held by Jesus' original apostles. With this power and authority, Joseph could organize the Church of Jesus Christ on the earth again, without it there would be no Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints. I know for myself that the men, boys, and the prophet who presides over all of us in the restored Church, can trace the unbroken line of priesthood authority to heavenly messengers who were sent from the Son of God Himself. This was to restore this divine authority, so the children of men can effectively follow Heavenly Father's plan of salvation and receive all the blessings of the gospel in its fulness. I bear record that all of the laws and ordinances of the gospel are available to us through our faith, prayers and proper priesthood authority found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
This Church is a restoration of the New Testament Church, which was built upon the foundation of apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone (Ephesians 2:18-22; 3:1-21). Because of the restoration of these things, I know that the Church is not a break-off from any other Church; it is a restoration of the New Testament Church. I bear record that for this reason I know without any doubt that I believe in the same God and Jesus Christ that the Bible teaches. I know that through Joseph Smith, that the gospel Jesus Christ established was brought back and if all of God's Children would embrace this gospel, they would then see eye to eye with the Savior, and the promised blessings would be poured out upon the people.
If we want to know if these things are true, we need to be patient as we exercise our faith in Christ to do what it takes to find the answers we are seeking for. The gospel must be learned in a "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little process. This process takes time.
If we want to understand the scriptures, we must pray before we begin to study and we must seek for the Spirit to give us insight and understanding. Our prayers for guidance will be only effective as our efforts to be receptive to the whisperings of the Holy Ghost.
We should ponder on the things we read.
We should learn how to recognize and listen to the promptings of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:12-16). Joseph Fielding Smith taught, "The Spirit of God speaking to the the spirit of man has power to impart truth with greater effect and understanding than the truth can be imparted by personal contact, even with heavenly beings. Through the Holy Ghost the truth is woven into the very fiber and sinews of the body so that it cannot be forgotten" [1954-56]. End of quote.
As we read and study the scriptures, the Spirit can confirm in our hearts the truth of what we are learning (Luke 24:32; Acts 2:37; John 14:16-17, 26; 15:26).
God hears and answers our prayers. He may not always answer as we expect, but He does answer—in His own time and according to His will. Those answers often come through the still, small voice of the Holy Ghost. We cannot rush the things of the Spirit. This is another reason why learning the gospel is a process. We need the help of the Holy Ghost. He is a witness of God's truth and through His power, influence, and promptings we can gain a testimony of what is true about God and His Son, Jesus Christ (John 5:32; 15:26; 16:12-15; Acts 5:32; 1 Corinthians 12:3).
I know that redemption comes to each individual through the merits, mercy, grace and atonement of Jesus Christ. We can trust in the Lord to help us find the answers we seek. He is our Savior and Redeemer. He loves everyone of us and wants to help us, and He will send the Holy Ghost to help us if we will just ask in faith and do our part (Luke 11:13).
Thank you for explaining that all religions are racist, so it's OK for yours to be.
Just for the record, I don't believe that Joseph Smith was anything but a man. No visitations from God, no prophetic knowledge. So telling me what he said really doesn't affect me, it doesn't make your case any stronger.
Now if you are just here to preach, then I'll be leaving the conversation. I don't politely ask Mormon Missionaries to leave so that I can voluntarily seek them out and converse. I'll not be converting. However if you'd like to have a conversation, that would be great.
I would, however, ask that you kept it to your opinions. If Joseph Smith has anything to tell me, he can speak for himself.
I feel like you are giving me an elevator speech, and it's honestly quite insulting. I have my own faith. I am showing you the respect of not trying to convert you to my faith, please show me the same respect.
you're not really addressing any of the points and questions, are you? You're just preaching. Are you here to have a conversation or to preach at people? These are not the same things, you see - and I personally find the page-long blocks of text a little off-putting.
Are you using scripture to mask racism or are you using racism to justify scripture?
Do I believe Joseph Smith is now a God at a seat beside God?
Do you believe that man is a spirit child of Heavenly Father?
(Acts 17:28-29; Romans 8:17)
Do you believe that man has the potential to become like Heavenly Father?
(PS 82:1-8; John 10: 34; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Galatians 4:7; Hebrews 12:9; 1 John 3:2; Revelation 3:21; John 15:1-23)
Do you believe that as we make and keep our covenants with God, we have the potential to inherit a place in His presence? I do. I believe that this life is a time of learning in which we can prove ourselves, choose to come unto Christ, and prepare to be worthy of eternal life. It is also a time when we can help others find the truth and gain a testimony of the plan of salvation. When we die, our spirit will enter into the spirit world and await the resurrection. At the time of the resurrection, our spirit and body will reunite, and we will be judged and received into a kingdom of glory (1 Peter 5:1, 10; 1 Corinthians 15:38-42; 1 Thessalonians 4:16). What do you think happened to the people who were rose from the graves after is resurrection? (Matthew 27:50-53) . The glory we inherit will depend upon the depth of our conversion and our obedience to the Lord's commandments. It will depend on the manner in which we have received a testimony of Jesus.
Colossians 2 :13; 3:1-4; 1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 John 3:2; Revelation 20:6
the word god is a title. lord, ruler judge, king, god. That's why God is the King of King Lord of Lord the one and only, no one before or after. God's name is Yahweh I am That I am. The one and only. no one will ever and never been a King of Kings Yahweh.
Reread those scriptures.
Passingthewordalong says that, "The book of mormon teaches that the American Indians were from Israel. That is the corner stone of their faith. DNA proved that the American Indians were not from Israel but in fact were from Asian descent. Proving that the BofM is a lie and a fictional book."
1. The Book of Mormon its self never says that American Indians were from Israel. The members of the Church thought that was a possibility, but they just supposed it to be. The Church has done a lot of DNA studies and the people who are specialist in that field have already explained that they cannot use DNA. The signatures are diluted when there are interracial marriages. As far as me believing that the American Indians came from Jerusalem, I simply don't know. There is some research being done on the people of ancient Mesoamerica. It seems most likely the location for where the Book of Mormon story played out. The scholars are saying that the lands and the culture matches the description of that in the Book of Mormon.
Just like the LDS church does all the time. When they get caught lieing they change their doctrine. That why you think the Bof M never talked about this matter.
The “Principal Ancestors” Change. The one-page introduction to the Book of Mormon, which gives a brief overview of its contents, was added in 1981 when the LDS Church released a revised text of the Book of Mormon. The introduction was written by Mormon Apostle BruceR. McConkie, at the time considered to be one of the church’s most prominent theologians. The introduction stated, “After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, (and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians.”)
New editions published by the LDS Church, however, will no longer include the phrase “principal ancestors.” They instead will read that the Lamanites are( “among” the ancestors of the American Indian.) This new alteration has already appeared in copies of the Book of Mormon published by Doubleday.
2) the Great apostasy has not happen yet.
John 15:2, Every branch (believer, disciple, true Christian) that beareth fruit, He (God) shall prune it, that it may bring forth more fruit. (The true Word of God will continue forever.) The branches are the believers and/or teachers and the fruit are those who are taught. God will get those people ready (prune) and the cycle will continue forever.
This is what God promised.
The Great apostasy is talked about in 2 Thessalonians Ch 2. When the people thought that the day of the Lord had already began.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first (The Great apostasy) AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition (Satan). Do you see the word (AND) fall away and satan (AND)
The Great apostasy (the Great falling away) will happen when the anti christ (the son of perdition "damnable to die") comes and teaches his false doctrine (Rev 13). The people will be tricked into worshiping the beast (satan) and will be turned away from the true Christ. The great Apostasy.
Jesus promised us that he would never leave us or forsake us. Hebrews 13:5, And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; John 14:16 we will always have the Holy spirit we will always have Jesus
And your using BIble scriptures and you not even using them right. Stop messing with God's word. Do whatever you want with the BofM (it's made up anyways)
It appears the Book of Mormon gets edits as information comes in that contradicts it's teachings.
The Lord is the one in charge, and He is perfect and so are His ways. If there are any edits, they are to correct the mistakes of men. It says so right on the Book of Mormon title page. "If there are any faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgement-seat of Christ." I got this off of the scriptures that I use, which shows that this was published by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in . At least since that time we have not claimed to be perfect human beings. I bet that same statement was on the first publications of the Book of Mormon that were made. If so, then you can say that since Joseph Smith, we have not claimed to be without faults. I bet we can all find some skeleton's in your life and religion. But that really doesn't matter, right, because we only pick on the LDS Church? For some reason things never change throughout history. You can find scripture references in the Bible that show that being an apostle or prophet doesn't make a person without weaknesses and faults. Hope you can get passed the little stumbling blocks that seem to easily beset you.
I've seen that kind of disclaimer - that the (book, sales brochure, opinion, etc.) is perfect; it says so right in the (book, brochure, etc.) but always as kind of a joke.
Never thought I'd see it in earnest.
If Joseph Smith was perfect, how exactly was he arrested and tried for fraud for using a seer stone?
You realize, don't you, that most Holy books have the same disclaimer. Do you believe in all of them? I mean, they say they're true right the in the book. Our is it special pleading that yours is actually true, and the others are just mistaken?
Jmac... I know you don't believe in the bible. That's fine but i have a question for. Through your study of the bible what does this sound like. A book that is a continuation of another book that said the first one is wrong and that it has been tanted and not a reliable. I the bible what does it say about people that will claim this?
On this post i just want your opinion on you studies of the bible.
I know you think it is all crap anyways.
Don't you think that an all powerful God (God Allah Zeus what ever) would take care of his words?
apparently he's turning people different colours and killing entire cities, but can't write a book. God figure.
but there's nothing to say that they're his words at all. God never ordered someone to make a Bible. He never gave instructions for what should be included. He never gave anyone the authority to write or compile it. He never ordered for it to be created in the first place. And we know, from historical research, that the bible has been changed and altered over times. Entire passages were added - like the passage about the woman caught in adultery, for example, and the ending of the Gospel of Mark. It says so in the footnotes, and we know it to be true because the earliest copies we have (copies, mind you - we have no originals) don't contain those passages. The New Testament was collated together by a committee, not a divine mandate - and the only reason that the cannon was created in the first place was because an early church heretic named Marcion was creating a cannon of his own and editing out all of the passages of circulating letters/gospels that he didn't like. How can that be the divinely inspired word of a god who never seemed the least bit interested in putting his words in a book in the first place?
If I want to get Christian technical - the Bible was never referenced as the word of God. Jesus was the embodiment of the word of god "and the word became flesh and dwelt among us" One of the problems that I have with the Modern Christian church is that a lot of it seems to worship the Bible as an idol - and not the spirit of the message and the messenger itself.
God Intended for his children to live His gospel by faith, not by sight (2 Corinthians 5:7).
This is the last testimony that I will be sharing on this forum. I believe the scriptures show how individuals, even members today can be led to resist the Holy Ghost. It really doesn’t matter if that resistance comes as a result of fear toward God taught by the precept of men, or being misinformed through anti-Mormon influences, philosophy, striving about genealogies, or vain deceit after the traditions of men, because all these are not after Christ but are after the rudiments of the world, and the outcome from these things will still be the same (Colossians 2:6-9).
I do believe that Anti-Mormon influences create an atmosphere and attitudes the cause people to fear they are in the wrong place or to keep people from investigating. Going into this direction can lead people to trust in man rather than in God. When a person rejects the way God governs His Church, they can't receive the blessings of the gospel which comes through called, men, boys and the prophet who hold proper priesthood authority. They do resist the Spirit (Acts 7:51-60). People repeat this kind of history because many do not learn from it (Matthew 23:37-39; 27:18; Mark 15:10; Acts 13:45-48; 17:5-13; Romans 13:13; 1 Corinthians 3:3; Galatians 5:19-26; Titus 3:1-11; James 3:13-18; 2 Timothy 1:7; 1 John 3:18; 4:18-21).
Because of my experiences with the Holy Ghost, I know that God is not a respecter of persons; each of us has the same privilege to come to God, and get revelation through the Holy Ghost to know the truth for ourselves. It is through the Holy Ghost that every person can know that the existing orthodox teachings of the restored Church of Jesus Christ are true and are from God, our Heavenly Father. I bear record that this is how I know the New Testament Church that Jesus Christ established during His ministry, was brought back through the restoration prophet, Joseph Smith. I bear my humble witness that the Holy Ghost is within me and has given me assurance of these things and I lie not (Matthew 12:31-37; Mark 3:29; Luke 12:10-12).
I know the Holy Ghost is part of the Godhead and comprehends more than all the world. All of my experiences with the Spirit have taught me to trust God more than man. For these reasons I associate myself with him.
God in His infinite foreknowledge brought the Book of Mormon forth for the express purpose to confound false doctrine and lay down contention by revealing that Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today and forever. It gives another testament of Him, giving a unified account and witness along with the Bible. The Bible reveals that the Book of Mormon is the work of the Savior. They are comparable.
All of our Church approved materials such as the Book of Mormon, the teachings of latter-day prophets, Hymns, lesson manuals, Handbooks, the Ensign and other church magazines, etc. manifest that the Book of Mormon will never overshadow the Holy Bible because they all contain Bible references and give a unified account of the Savior and His dealings with His people. The Book of Mormon contains a unified testimony of the Savior with all the prophets since the beginning. For these reasons all latter-day curriculum centers on the teachings we find in the Bible. We even rotate teaching out of each standard works every year for a whole year and we cover every book in the Holy Bible. When members testify of the Book of Mormon, they are bearing witness of the Bible because it pertains to the gospel Jesus Christ brought forth during His mortal and post-mortal ministry and what every prophet has said of Him from the begining.
We believe the Bible to be the word of God as stated in our (8th Article of Faith). The Articles of Faith originated from the Prophet Joseph Smith’s earliest teachings and are part of the existing orthodox teachings of the Church that were revealed to Joseph Smith during the first beginnings of the restoration and they are what we believe in as a covenant people. As a result, since Joseph’s ministry, he and all Latter-day Prophets have taught the Gospel of Jesus Christ that is found in the Holy Bible.
What sets us apart from other faiths is that we claim and know there was a restoration that brought forth the fulness of the Gospel that was originally established by the Savior during His ministry. There was a falling away from that Holy Order (a great apostasy). With the deaths of the Savior and His apostles, God withdrew the Church and priesthood authority. This apostasy lasted until Heavenly Father and His beloved son appeared to Joseph Smith in 1820 and initiated the restoration of the fulness of the Gospel. We now live in a time when the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored. But, unlike the Church in times past, The Church of Jesus Christ will never again be destroyed (D&C 138:44, see also Daniel 2:44).
Latter-day scripture tells us what the fullness is; “And again, the elders, priest and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gospel which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fullness of the gospel” (D&C 42:12). It was less than a year after the Church was organized, when the Prophet Joseph Smith received this revelation from the Lord. At least since that time, the world cannot mistake what Jesus Christ has said is His fulness and what we should teach. Nor can anyone say that Joseph Smith or any of the members since His ministry “believed in or taught of a different God or Jesus than the Bible teaches.” The leaders and sincere members of this Church sustain, that together, the Bible and Book of Mormon teach the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and is the work of many prophets acting under the influence of the same Holy Spirit. I know these Books of scripture support each other and give a unified account that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever (see 2 Nephi 29:9).
I think my sharing on this Forum proves this. I have used scriptures from the Bible to share my testimony of the Book of Mormon. I bear record that they support each other and give a unified account of the Savior and His gospel. All people can pray in faith to know this for themselves through the witness and teachings of the Holy Ghost. I think it is not understood by most of Christendom that we don’t ask anyone to throw away the good they have already received; we only ask that they come and get more, “the fulness.”
God shares his power with each of us through priesthood holders so we can receive the sacred laws and ordinances of the gospel that will help us return to His presence. (The Apostle Paul had the fulness and proper priesthood authority (Romans 15:29). That fulness is what allowed the New Testament Gentiles that believed in his word and power to enter a covenant with God so they could be fellowheirs, and of the same body (members of the Church or household with the Saints), and partakers of God’s promise in Christ by the gospel:( Ephesians 3:1-19; 4:11-14).
The fulness has been the direction and view of the restored Church from its beginnings. It began when Joseph Smith prayed to know what Church he should join and God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ appeared to him and answered his question.
May God bless each of you in your search for truth, and may you find peace and happiness in this life and in the next. I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
Again, I'm asking specific questionsv that you are avoiding at all costs. No one asked for your testimony or a huge block of text proselytizing your beliefs. I can read, and I've read the book of Mormon several times. I don't buy it. So what?
Why should we believe the Joseph Smith golden plates and magic glasses story anymore than Gabriel appearing to Mohammed? Both make extraordinary but contradictory claims and we are expected to simply take them at their word.
Stumbling blocks that beset me? You should listen to yourself justify racism with scripture written by a know lier and polygamist. Where did those slates go? Why did they have to go if God wants for us to believe in him. Why can't any secular Anthropologists find evidence for any of the tribes described?
So you are going to base your salvation on a book that says , this is the truth; may be, God has revealed all to me but i might not have written it right but hopefully i did. The book of Mormon is not a modern day revelation. It a modern day cover up. Cover up to all of the lie and false doctrine that are being proven wrong. Please respond to my other reply to you. I would love to here what you have to say.
JMC.... You should start a form on the quesitons above.... first to the tumb. bible was not ordered to be made.... so we can talk about it there. This form got off the topic and theres to much comment to to respond to.
Oh and debhansencsm are you reading the other post? If you going to respond stay on the subject.
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