Dishonesty Within the Ranks of Christians
PhoenixV
Is there a desire to win souls in these conversations?
I ask because it seems to me that I am viewed as pushing my view and/or proselytizing.
It's not my purpose at all. I wonder if it is a goal for some of us. It is not apparent, truth is truth.
I really cannot see any "urgency" or "goading" from you (which is-edit- *also, my style, in my opinion). But truth.
I guess i do wonder if it SHOULD be my goal. Just wondering about your (and any one else's) thoughts about it.Follow Christ, friend, not other imperfect Christians. We don't have it all figured out, but Thanks be to God, Jesus Christ is our intercessor and friend.
Exactly, very wise words indeed. Thank you!
Holy cow! There are over 1200 replies on this sucker and it can't be more than a month old.
Shows you what a good controversial title will do, eh?Hey God!!! Get'cho self together!!!... etc.
Not "straight" enough??? I think you DID get it.
God CAN do whatever he wants, simply because he's more powerful; AND we just have to deal with it, as it is... without adding to or subtracting from...
You got it!... you just don't want to... there IS a difference.
You have shown yourself to be a GREAT decipherer.
So, your God is a bully. And you're ok with that.
Why do you think I dislike the Bible so much?I know why you don't like the bible...
And God is not a bully. He is the grown-up. He left us in charge with instructions on the fridge...And the children he left in charge let him down?
Hi everyone
Hi Jonny!
It's not that easy. We each are in charge of ourselves. No one to blame.On a pretty depressingly consistent basis, yes...
Hi Jonny,
I don't know about the children in charge example, but I agree God is in charge in that example, lol. I see what Genaea is saying. The rest isn't pointed at you, but in general for all here that care to read it.
I think there is a misunderstanding on the part of some here that to respond to a possible god and in this case Jesus and his Father God, that we need to look elsewhere than Jesus as the "standard". Even in the Lords prayer Jesus spoke of "forgiving us our debts, as we forgive our debtors..." This and a lot of other passages allude to our now "imperfect" nature. No one is perfect, though we are to try and be like Jesus. I only mention it because when people forget or ignore this part, it becomes far too easy to blame the already imperfect people for being imperfect and sometimes really bad even (the fringe supposedly being spoken of, like Westboro Baptists, etc...) as the REASON for rejecting God or ignoring Jesus' message, etc. This means those that engage in that thinking, might REALLY be missing out on something big and good, for the imperfections we knew we would see. (No, this is not an attempt to excuse the bad, and people also need to remember Christians stand before God as well, and that there are tares, and wolves, etc.) Not everyone that says "God, God, didn't we do this and that in your name...." will even be recognized as one of his. So my point is, we KNOW there will be some really hypocritical and evil people parading around calling themselves Christians, and hurting the cause of Christ.
So the "standard" matters.... Its super easy to reject God by looking at the imperfect on earth, the created, instead of the creator in this case. Its just a trick to hurt people, so its why I bring it up.
- Pennyforyourthotsposted 10 years ago
0How sad that you would let those negative examples dictate your thoughts on Christians as a whole. I say you should not generalize when speaking of any one group of people or another because every group is comprised of individuals who are very different from one another even though they may share the same label to you.
I think I agree with you on these thoughts. The problem in this case is that we aren't even really clear on what negative examples are being talked about, which fringe examples are the reason given for demeaning the whole. Since its not clear, the best I can assume about it is that the OP is speaking of the fringe groups like the Westboro Baptist people, for example.
Even then though, this whole thread doesn't really make sense, but it could almost begin to make sense of a little of it to me.
I refuse to believe a "god" exists that would accept a murderer in heaven because that murderer believes in him, but would send a do-gooder to hell simply because he does not believe. Sounds a little pompous to me. He tells us to make us stay in line and have good morals. Yet, his morals are pretty questionable.
Hi Crunchymama,
The understanding I have of the gospel is that anyone that has sinned or done wrong against God and or fellow man, and if they turn from that and ask for forgiveness, those are the ones that would be allowed to live an eternal life with their creator, in a new heaven and new earth.
Those that don't turn and repent of their sin are left with what we were all left to contend with after getting to live this life. God has offered up a way to be forgiven, and if it is ever suggested that it would be better to NOT forgive whatever the crime, of the truly repentant heart, then I see that as a sad idea, a worse idea than a forgiving God.
So if it was just as you said, I could understand, but the god being spoken of here and Jesus didn't seem to reveal that message to people in quite that way. Another way of putting it is that no one is asking you to believe in the god you describe there, including Jesus or the apostles. So hopefully that might ease some thoughts to the contrary. I know it is often portrayed as such by those that choose to believe that way, but its not in the gospels. Think of the thief on the cross if you know that story.... He responded, and asked that Jesus remember him when he entered into his kingdom. Jesus extended grace to that man, even as he was dying. I would WANT to be with a God that DID forgive, as opposed to didn't forgive, is my point.
I refuse to believe a "god" exists that would accept a murderer in heaven because that murderer believes in him, but would send a do-gooder to hell simply because he does not believe. Sounds a little pompous to me. He tells us to make us stay in line and have good morals. Yet, his morals are pretty questionable.
- Emile Rposted 10 years ago0
Think about what you've just said. Single file with one leader. That's ridiculous since there are tens of thousand of sects within Christianity and who knows how many religions among all of humanity. You seem to think you know some truth that has been denied billions of others. Do you even stop to think how silly that claim is?
Butt in? What exactly do you mean by that? Humans are butting in simply because they don't agree with you?
We get furious when one yells 'Get back in line"? Out of curiosity you think yelling at someone else is appropriate? You have the right to yell at others? You think that's indicative of a spiritual understanding?
Someone says in their heart "No one tells ME wha-a-do!!! And I better get my candy STAT!!! Aren't you so very special that you can look into the heart of another human being and judge them. Forgive me if I don't think your philosophy is indicative of anything spiritual.It was a hypothetical scenario that you seem to have taken to heart... and become defensive... Do you think I wonder why?
What would make you bring up a hypothetical scenario such as that? Come on Genaea. Don't play coy. Stand behind your intent.
Well, now that I have your attention...
The kingdom of God is in actuality something of a dictatorship. We lowly humans get no vote. We were created. We cannot know all that our creator knows...
He has left his parameters. He gave us a living image of his heart and he left it up to us to decide whether or not we'd like to participate in the "pizza party" at the end of the schoolyear.
If you comply with the request to shrink yourself down to nothing and LISTEN... You will be ready when the "end of the year" comes. get it???
No comply... it's you and the janitor in the detention room with homework.
Can't see one pizza eater opting to ... well ya know.
There is 1 rule maker who made the rules alone. I was nowhere around when he laid the foundation of the earth. I, personally, cannot pretend to know more than he. It actually sounds idiotic to me to think such a thought.
We cannot gain enough signatures to win a grievance against God.
My earlier scenario identified the thought pattern of one who is defiantly trying to obtain what they want, no matter how impossible. It was the mindset of a stubborn single-file line walker who wants to walk alongside the line and still get the same reward as them who simply walked in the line.
Being sorry for our wrongs and receiving forgiveness is what addresses the guilt issues we have as a human race, and accepting eternal life from the one that paid the price for it all, is turned around to be so awful. Not everyone wants to be sorry or forgiven or wants life perhaps. We want to judge God for it all. We get what we choose and want, but if its not the ideal outcome, is that the fault of someone else? It seems to not be a good argument, and illogical.
We expect to pull one over on God, when he already knows our hearts and minds. Its a good thing I think to point out where the arguments might fail, in case some might think they will work in the end, when they seem illogical at the outset. Isn't it a good thing, since we are all talking about these ideas, to point out where these ideas/arguments might fail, so we can be thought out on it all? This might be the most important thing in life, and it deserves a second thought at least. Even if one doesn't agree with the ideas or believe them, there are some ideas floating around that even working within the idea, don't make sense. Let us call an idea wrong, that is actually wrong for logical and reasonable reasons. What we prefer, want, and like aren't good reasons for assessing something as reasonable or not. Life doesn't work that way every day of our lives, and it makes no sense to expect it to be such at the end either.The here and now is nothing compared to eternity. Choices we make, here and now, are not soul threatening because we have no concrete knowledge of anything but the here and now.
I think, what many religious fail to understand is that they are not different. You claim everyone wants to judge God. Who could judge God? The judgment lies in viewing the concepts of God and determining of each concept could truly be representative of a being worthy of worship, worthy of hoping for an eternity in its presence, worthy of glory.
If we begin with the assumption that such a being exists then we can determine which concepts are not representative of that being. You see people judging God. I don't. I see people simply stating that some concepts do not do justice to a supreme being.I think assuming the worst about God could be a form of judging him. If hell is the main thing this is all about, then that is a good example of what I mean. For instance, I know you have been here when many of us have spoken of not knowing absolutely 100% for sure of an everlasting, ongoing, perpetual burning of bodies for eternity. Some have spoken of an eternal fire, and an eternal state. Some believe it is annihilation of people. Not ongoing torment. Perhaps, a form of going back to the non existence we had before we each came into existence.
I am not overly committed to the idea of people judging god, but they sure seem to, and even more, his followers. What I mean most often when I speak of people judging god, is they are judging his character or lack of, as is portrayed in the bible, for example. They are judging this god. If that is all you mean, that we can't judge that god but can judge the revelation of him through that means, then that is fine. I don't really have issue with that, but it kind of misses my points to a degree. I am speaking in ideas, as I so often go, and are the ideas themselves reasonable or not, more moral or not, and do we act like they are so strange when applied to god over how we each live in our societies today. We expect god to be SOOOO entirely different than the authorities we accept in our societies. I think this is unreasonable, just as an idea. Its transparent, the contradictions I mean.
You bring up a fair point about eternity, if I am understanding you. Yet you are asking I agree with you, over Jesus' teachings in this case, that our choices here and now aren't soul threatening. Says who, you, and some others? That seems fair. Yet, I am being asked to consider the teachings of Jesus, from a long line of people asked to pass along the good news of an eternal life after being given the amazing gift of this life. Then I am being asked to abandon those teachings for a mere human's ideas. Yet that is myself also. Thus the age old questions about literary criticisms and how truth comes down to us through history, etc. People can totally reject it, but it may just be a fact that we all will literally face our maker, and that maybe it is God the Father. If it is, he has made sure we have the knowledge of him, and that he has given us minds and our consciences to seek and learn more, then respond. In the mean time, we are making choices our whole life long. In the end, its not some human's courtroom we will be in but God's. (if its all true, and I think it is, but I understand you do not.) If its God's courtroom, this whole universe I mean, and he is the one responsible for each and everyone of us being in existence, he is very much in his right to judge us as he sees fit.
If its all wrong, or a severe distortion of the REAL truth of Jesus as he brought it, then that would mean that God was inept at that particular time in history, even after making sure Jesus came as a man, a baby, only to let his real revelation be SO screwed up as I think you are suggesting it would be. That doesn't make sense to me, after ALL that. Its having faith in something else, but not a very realistic, what else. It would have to all just be a complete bunch of baloney, but then I still don't think it could be, because of history, and now, humanity, etc. Far too much is explained by the way it is portrayed in the simple teachings of Jesus and the apostles, and the prophets, the more I learn and observe. Its uncanny.
I guess the idea is, that God had a hand in the transmission, down to us. It wasn't so fumbled all along, it was intentional. Of course other teachings would come in, they always have, and still do! Of course there would need to be a way to weed out those that added too or took away from the message. Having contradictory teachings isn't a teaching at all, and it wouldn't be gods message to us. I am always amazed, at the level of faith and belief used by non believers when they speak of how long it was after the time of Jesus, how it couldn't be the real truth for any number of reasons....... I find there to be nothing even comparable, in an honest study of it all. It is literally very impressive, just as it would be IF it were gods revelation to man, using humans along the way to record it. My prayer is that those that might ever remotely want to seek a possible real god, would open their hearts and seek him and it says they will find him. I truly believe not all want him, not all want the truth if he is included in it. If its genuinely just a non issue, just one of another of thousands or more beliefs out there, then it would be treated as such. People from all those other views also display dishonesty, and do bad things, and ALL beliefs/views have people that go against their own moral codes. It could just be that while not pleasant, God could be making sure that everyone's questions ARE answered, and that all the excuses are not allowed to be given, because he knows our hearts anyway.... (if he exists, and Jesus is the way....) Thats true in our lives too..... the truth is often not what we want, its not the way we would do it, but we listen to the experts or not, and go to the best sources.....not to the quacks that distort and practice bad medicine, using medicine/doctors as a metaphor, lol. Pointing out how messed up the quacks are and the damage they cause, does nothing to help the conditions. Pointing them out and rightly saying, "that can't be right!", is NO excuse to ignore the main physician's instructions for the condition.It's difficult to address long posts, point for point. The gist I'm getting from you is that you want to be reasonable but you want to give quarter, in case they are right. I suppose I get that. You're unsure so err on the side of caution.
But, one must not be surprised when assumed to be of like mind with those one publicly agrees with.Sorry so long. Of course I want to be reasonable, as I think that is the best way for all of us to be about all things. None of us can change whatever God has in store for those that reject the free gift of Christ by his payment on the cross. By believing in Jesus' words, it won't make hell real or not, it just is or not. We can disagree with God on this, on that idea of an eternal state or punishment, whatever it is.
Yes, I am always surprised when people lump people together into the wording like in the OP and ever since in the thread. Or stop talking to people they say have attitude when they exhibit way more of the same, ongoing. I am surprised because I think it is unreasonable, AND on the other hand, shows the deeper thoughts about people that really just believe differently from you and your friends. Its strange is all, and I so I comment on it in case anyone might wonder about that being a clue to something more going on.
Its actually not so much about the people you are trying to talk about in the OP or not. Its about Jesus himself, in what has come to us through the revelation God has allowed. You don't have to disagree with the fringe, or the "not so fringe groups". You DO seem to want to justify lumping or assuming about all of them I notice, as fringe, despite attempts to get you to be more fair. Jesus would be this fringe element you speak of, yet you seem to have some hesitation with him, and I actually really get that. I think there are deeper reasons for that.
If you want to not think about how Jesus talked about hell way more than heaven, that is fine, but its in the texts that survived, and if not wanting to believe those, then what ARE you going by, for info on Jesus' teachings? I mean what other texts, what better revelation that is more correct, clear, true and more agreeable? I am saying, just call Jesus the fringe you seem to be, but not wanting to go there and just go after his followers and all the demeaning things you say about them. Do you see the disconnect?
Its a struggle, and I get that. In the effort to see things clearly, we just need to be very honest because of the emotion that arises and our state. (and probably much more.)
For wanting to be so much more moral than Jesus, his Father, and their followers in this possible regard that isn't even 100%, one could just address the whole issue of morals as Jesus laid them out. Yet don't want to. Wanting to claim to be more moral than all of them, by sticking to one's own lack of morals when/if we have them (I do...). Sticking to them being in an unforgiven state rather than forgiven by the one that matters in the greater court of the universe.
Its a bottom line thing. We are all sinners on our way to our eternal death state at least, if Jesus was right. Our sins, when we are raised after this first physical death, will either be considered covered, or uncovered. Forgiven or unforgiven. There are super simple terms laid out. "Forgive us out debts, as we forgive our debtors." Some are sorry, some are not sorry, some will have repented, some have not. We can't hold so tight to not being sorry nor repenting or confessing to the one true God, AND want to be in his eternal heaven and earth that he prepares for those that do respond. It is what is being suggested though. Entry for all, even for those that rejected and didn't want anything to do with God or his son and his payment for those sins. Perhaps he will hear that argument at that late date, but wow what a huge wager when the odds aren't looking so good because it seems to be laid out.
So in effect, holding on to our right to sin against God as we please (and maybe against others) Maybe being sorry to others but not to God and not wanting his forgiveness nor his terms, and then in effect judging him for having possible said terms and the consequences he laid out. It would BE judging HIM, not his followers anyway, nothing else will matter then. Judging his right to be in his position. Its not so burdensome, Jesus took all that on himself. What is in the way are distortions and lies, to keep people from their life in eternity, from their ultimate potential. That is where the crux lies.... in the lies vs the truth, and what is at stake. Good vs evil, life vs death.Just one point. I don't think anyone has rejected Christ. What they do is reject these ridiculous and egotistical interpretations. I'm not certain why this is such a difficult concept to follow.
You don't think anyone has rejected Christ?
If you are reading my posts, I am addressing that. You need to share why a non biblical interpretation is BETTER than the biblical one, and what you are going off of. I asked this. I am asking also, what are you going off of, rather than the bible, that is to be more trusted and accurate, than the bible? I have not seen an answer. I don't know of one, if not one that is just a version of Jesus made up in our own heads, and based off of what?
Also to be clear, when I speak of Jesus and the rejecting of him, this is what God will be looking at come judgement day, to see if the person has accepted the free gift of forgiveness and life that comes through him. Since the topic is hell/salvation, that I see you having the biggest gripe with, I think it all ties in. Its less egotistical I think, to drop our egos and be humble to gods plan over our own, as if our own plans could outdo his anyway. Our egos DO get in the way of our focus I think, and confuse the very simple ideas being talked about. I think for anyone going to the hell we are speaking about, they will have rejected Christ. The opposite is to accept him as he laid out. If we aren't making up new versions of Jesus and what he said, then what Jesus, what standard are you going by? That is my biggest question to you.Honestly, this insistence that an alternative interpretation is somehow non Biblical is troubling. How does someone interpret something if they are not using that something in order to interpret it?
Think about Christ when teaching. Think about the sayings of Christ. How many of them are quoting chapter and verse of the Old Testament? He didn't need to because he showed, by his actions, how righteous his understanding was. The example of Christ was the point. Not the words of the OT. Not the words of the gospels. Not Paul's ideas of what it means. Just the example of Christ. That, in my opinion, is why nothing was written down by him. Words can be misconstrued, reinterpreted, warped, etc. Actions speak volumes and are not so easily misunderstood.Honestly, I thought you had to be talking about some extra or other revelation, as Jesus himself often explained things to people from the scriptures, that has and always will be around. We are no different in having to reason through things, except we don't have Jesus in person here. Isn't this really just about you not realizing you are doing the very same thing you are accusing others of, insisting on a correct interpretation over others? I assumed what I did very fairly I think, but stand corrected and need to nearly start over. I took you at your word. Specifics will help.
Its confusing to be honest. Can we start again with some specific examples of the fringe ideas you are lumping all the rest of the people into without warrant? That would be a great place to start. I thought hell WAS one of those things. By the way, Jesus was Jesus and we are not, so we don't have exactly the same first hand God knowledge he had in his head, nor his perfect nature. Of course he stands out among all people HE esteemed his own teachings, and encouraged his followers to share that good news with the lost world, as IF it could be done. So we need to have them to refer to. Now I am glad I know what the source is, the gospels.
You have to make your case clear, and it seems to be shifting on top of not clear. What exactly do you want from people, if not really just conform to your own interpretations of teachings, or else be lumped in with those you disagree with? I think its alarming you see nothing wrong with what you are doing.
Bottom line I think is this... What do you Emile, go by, when finding out about Jesus' teachings, since Jesus isn't here to be that only perfect example? The gospels, correct? (Since you made it abundantly clear you aren't referring to any other teachings or revelation in the above post.) Then, the next question is like one in my very first (or 2nd) post I believe in this thread that went unanswered.... What do you use as a measuring rod against the revelation from Jesus that you approve of? Thanks for answering these questions.I have repeatedly told you I am not lumping everyone together. If you didn't understand the intent of the OP then we are starting from different points.
I am not attempting to correct anyone. Simply pointing out that their interpretation is theirs. If they would stop attempting to shove it down everyone's throats as 'God's will' that would be nice.You said, "I've been supportive of Christians for the most part. Probably because of the respect I hold for the ministry of Jesus and the goodness I believe is the heart of the universe.
I've lost the ability to support you guys. The lies and innuendo, the games many play circumventing the truth, the total lack of regard most show toward their fellow man in order to prop up their egos. The gyrations around verses in order to circumvent the spirit of the intent.
I'm done finding reason to attempt to find reason in your arguments. You've allowed the fringe to define you to those outside the faith too long for me to continue to give the religion the benefit of the doubt.
It's really very sad that these have become the face of Christianity."
You are not saying that the face of Christianity (in Emile's eyes) has been defined by the fringe elements you spoke of? How am I missing this OP altogether? I do recall you saying you had "had it" (in essence) with a few people, or were frustrated..... so do you retract some of this OP? Because otherwise, I am operating that it is in play. Its like a song and dance, when I address your points, its that I am always wrong in my understanding of what is being said? Do you find this to be true of me all the time, is that normal in the past? The "you guys" and no longer looking for reason in the arguments, etc.Did you miss this part? "You've allowed the fringe to define you to those outside the faith too long for me to continue to give the religion the benefit of the doubt."
Maybe, you didn't understand my intent? I'm simply beginning to find it difficult to deal with some of the drivel I encounter and not see those who I consider to be reasonable Christians not stand up against it. If you agree with it, that's OK. But, I must be given the freedom to come to my on conclusions as to what that means.But still, beneath a load of requests, you fail to point to, "the beef".
I don't wonder why, I think you are just overlooking the obvious.
I know it's not my business, but...Consider one of the fingers pointed. I thought you might have figured that out already.
Are you saying you need some help expressing the problem you have with "them"???
I do know and remember, precisely, your arguments.Seeing as how it appears you believe yourself to be God, I'm not surprised you believe yourself to have a good memory. Do you also think you can walk on water?
My argument remains the same. You do not speak for God. If all of Christendom agreed, I'd think maybe you guys had a handle on a valid interpretation of the book. Since they don't, I am left to assume you are grabbing what works for you and attempting to pass it off as God's will. I'm not buying it and remain offended by the egotistical belief that failure to agree is blasphemous.It does not take God's mind to hear.
I remember what I read. It's called visual learning. I thought you knew.
Again, you do not listen to Jesus. HE said that not all who call themselves his, are recognized by him.
How may one still toss out "the baby..."???
I believe everything Jesus said. That being one of your main points of contention.
Unfortunately you will not win points by insisting that biblical words, properly understood, are "my own words".
God knows the heart.
"I know they told me, Lord, but they said it mean!!!" I cannot see it flying. But I am not God...Ah. Biblical words properly understood. I see. So the majority of Christians who wouldn't necessarily support some of the bizarre claims you throw out just don't properly understand?
Gotcha.
We have all seen it, many times, Emile R. Pushing any argument into the corner by insisting that "God" designed it, God don't like the way we run the earth; God is on our side, not yours because -- he made us superior.
You know as well as I do that an argument with Cgenaea will never be won because the esoteric, unprovable is always invoked.
Move on, is my recommendation.Just a couple of things in response to this, and I have seen something similar said before. First, I don't agree with the repeated assertion that Genaea believes herself to be God. I almost responded to that before, but predicted you might say that you were joking or something like that. Yet you keep saying it, and I just wonder at that, when its so obvious she is not. The sarcasm would be more funny perhaps if you weren't taking what she does in expressing her views so utterly serious, and having such issues with them.
You and I also have strongly held views, as we all do. We each hold these views because we think they are right, and express them on occasion and when asked, etc.
The idea that all of Christendom needs to be in agreement for there to be a valid interpretation of the Bible is a faulty one I think. I have seen it suggested before but its not exactly true. This also relates to the idea of relativism. That would just be consensus, and numbers, and we all know that doesn't make a case a case necessarily at all, as several people can be mistaken. While this doesn't make Genaea's view correct, it doesn't prove she is wrong either like I think you think it might.
The closest that any of us truth seekers can get to the most truthful interpretation of this book, the Bible, is to use more of the Bible in its other parts to back up or not. The way I see Genaea being judged for not having the exact right interpretation is given through another person's eyes in this case, yours, and through your own interpretation. In other words, you are interpreting her interpretation and don't seem to realize how absolutely sure of yourself you seem to be, yet we all know cannot be. (Being absolutely sure she is absolutely wrong on so much, not realizing you are suggesting you are absolutely sure and not seeming to see how annoying you find that same trait in her.)
I share this in an effort to encourage more peace and patience with those we disagree with, less judgmental attitudes with or without sarcasm. It seems kind of like a bad case of incessantly going after the splinters and missing the logs, sometimes, no matter who is doing it to another. Its not helpful, and we get the memo you so utterly and totally disagree. When I get to that point with some and I do, I cease reading those posts, and trust others can very plainly see the persons actions for what they are. Unless I am a glutton for punishment, I don't get why I would if I felt so incredibly strong about some as you feel about some here.
What is happening I think is she is voicing her views you don't care to hear, and rather than leaving her "be" after making your points numerous times, we get to the point where a whole thread is necessary? If it is her ego and other things happening, then what is it when you keep on engaging too, that there is not contentment to leave it alone and the need to gain support from other Christians to show similar disdain?
The ones not rejecting Christ.... do they accept Him? We each stand on our own on this, no matter how many fringe people and groups have lived along side in life. My point is, they aren't an excuse, and not even a point, yet you want them to be. Almost desperately so, it seems. Who cares about the fringe if morals and truth are our goals? You aren't fooled by any fringe element on here, nor am I, no matter what side they are on. There are super fringe atheists here on HP for example.
If your goal is to create such a deliniation between all the people that we all might "frown upon" them together, of their shameful ways, then what explains this? Are you suggesting I take a stand with YOU(?) for the high ground, your version of it, or else what? You have been shown now and long ago, how many Christians aren't sure of an eternal fire where people will be standing there burning for eternity and never dying... So you are asking for something you have been already given, then telling me not to be surprised I will be lumped with some undefined non specific fringe element? All because I say I am not sure, because I am not sure 101%?. We aren't required to, as Christians. What is required is really simple. Not easy, but simple to grasp conceptually, in how it was communicated by Jesus who you seem to esteem some. I have made a long case about why this isn't the bigger points being missed in the context of these ideas.
You are right, we can't judge God, that is a fair point. How could we? I think some want to almost sacrifice our eternal souls to make a point to God of how much we think he is this supposed cosmic bully. Are we willing to be divorced from our sin or not? Would we want to lay it down, have it answered for? The sin and sinful ways are going to go far from the Kingdom of God.. Not all want this. God lets them and doesn't override that. Many want the sin and don't want to be sorry or have it pardoned, even though it hurts us and others so often. I keep mentioning these points because I wonder how logical it is to keep expecting such illogic from God to do more than he already has. We do wrong against him and others and ourselves. He and Jesus do not. The part where we take responsibility or not, is laid out in Jesus' teachings. If you know of other teachings that negate the ones that God seemed fit to come to us, then why not share those here? To not answer is to not follow through on your own points made over and over in this thread.Matthew 12:30: "He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad".
Here is where Mark tells us "this is why your religion causes so many conflicts".
Sorry, not going to apologize for God.That is one of the many reasons this religion causes conflicts. I see you blamed god instead of accepting personal responsibility. It is all god's fault.
Wondered how you would spin it since I already employed your tag line.
Well - you did blame god instead of accepting responsibility didn't you?
Accept responsibility for all wars ever fought right now bB... religious wars and secular wars as well... just to cover all the bases.
Perhaps not me, directly but certainly folks I am related to if you go back far enough. Except of course the monkey wars. Those weren't my relatives. Mark?
Uh... no... Im pretty sure it's all on you my friend. Be expecting a call from the UN any moment.
Too lazy to read it huh? Just defending the believer. No matter how many conflicts your religion causes - you always leap to defend it - why is that?
My religion doesn't cause wars... bBeran does. He is accepting full responsibility as of today.
I didn't respond to the charge the first time so as not to supply easily spun fodder. Are you seeking confirmation that I agree with Jesus, that those who are not with Him are against Him? I wholeheartedly agree. Valuable information for those seeking to instead create a Jesus to suit how they want Him to be.
Doesn't it go without saying really? That those who aren't with him, are against him? He had some very radical ideas and claims. Why is this a point of contention I wonder, when it just seems obvious?
If this continues I am tempted to audit this thread and post the hate and vitriol parade against believers which is evident throughout. In retrospect, perhaps that horrible display is exactly what the OP was calling for. It would be an unpleasant task, and despicable read, but also a revealing truth.
Don't edit anything out. Make sure comments from both sides are left unedited.
If I do it I will use complete statements, but not complete posts, otherwise I would simply be reposting the entire thread. The vitriol may only be a sentence out of several paragraphs. It will be their direct words in context. Anyone who wants to defend what I believe would be evident as indefensible would be free to respond with their defense. I don't really want to do it, but do feel it should be exposed in a concise format. I think even the contributors to it would be surprised at what they have said when presented undiluted.
Well, I suppose you should do what you feel is best. I am beginning to understand that what is considered vitriol varies by belief system. I have had some pretty heinous things said to me and then seen attempts to chastise me for responding. I don't take attacks on my character lightly.
I fail to see the irony.Hopefully, when you do your little dance with the comments you can make that clear; I'm sure.
I've never attacked your character, yet you've said I am worse than a Nazi prison camp guard manning the ovens, (something you say is true of any who believe in hell), and in this thread did you not just compare "fundamentalists" to jihadists, kept warm at night by the dreams of burning everyone in a bonfire? The Nazi thing did not originate in this thread but the other comments are from just the last few pages. I don't suppose you consider any of that an attack of character. Those are just samples without really looking. That is why your declaration about not taking an attack on your character lightly is very ironic.
You are exactly right. What you say there, is an example of the playing out of what I say in my post just prior to this. Exactly.... that is the point.
Some believe what they will nonetheless, and have the "need" driving the whole mechanism. So SOMETHING else must be at fault, and the winner to get that "fault award" is the target. In some sick way, this makes sense perhaps, though grossly unfair. Thank god others see what I saw, and also the claim of innocence all the while. Yet the concern is that those others get their fair share of fault and blame! Its simply, amazing. Not in a good way.No. I have compared the ideology to Nazi ideology. Are you a prison guard?
I did compare the fundamentalist mindset to one of a strict Muslim take on things and speculated that they would enjoy forcing others to live by their views. I'm not certain I see the problem with that comment. I have been called a blasphemer, a slanderer of God, compared to Satan, a person without access to the spirit, a person without the ability to discern correctly...oh, and of course I'm hell bound. All of this by a few professed Christians I do label fundamentalists. I assume someone who sees that many flaws in their fellow man would certainly think they would be better in charge of our lives..If the idea of continuously attempting to set oneself above others on a cosmic scale is not in line with a hope to see this view forced on all of humanity; I apologize.
However, if you don't expect someone to respond when having been slandered I'm not certain how you have survived here on Hub Pages.Clearly you don't recall our previous exchanges. Not only did you make a point of making it personal, when I pointed it out thinking it surely wasn't intended, you doubled down. It has probably been at least a year. It came up again in another thread a few months ago and you freely doubled down again. Now you wish to redefine it?
If you saw it as a double down I'm certainly not going to argue that point. I do think, if someone bothered to think the idea through to its logical conclusion they would be horrified that they had signed on for it. I just don't consider anyone so evil as to willingly support it; as I see it.
Hateful and vitriolic as your allegations are, at least you have the conviction and integrity to stand by them even when on display.
I consider the ideology of hell to be more hateful and vitriolic than any belief structure that has ever been created. I don't see it in line with Christ. If I respond to it with what you perceive as hatefullness and vitriol please accept that from my viewpoint whoever pushed forth the idea that they were cosmically more approved than another human being started it first.
This is a parallel to my experience also with the same, for whatever that is worth to you. Only not so long ago. My observations are more recent, but I have been gone a lot since last Feb and Summer.
I remember the Nazi camp/oven manning conversation.
More of an assertion that if you follow the "tyranny" of God; talking about that hell stuff... You are no different. Specifics will come.
I think I do remember it being about people (on God's side) being happy about the punishment of hell and standing behind it just like the Nazis did. The OT was highlighted, because of course, God showed little mercy then. Genocide was the topic.
I have had that conversation. Doesn't seem like a whole year...That, again, is a falsehood. I don't perceive God to be tyrannical. I see attempts to make him appear such as offensive. I realize you don't understand the difference. You've made that amply clear. But, please, don't put your words into my mouth. Thanks. If you don't understand just move along.
Yes she had no problem making it personal although I gave her opportunities to clarify otherwise.
It isn't people on God's side. You don't get to claim God's side. It's those who appear to revel in some belief that they are cosmically superior to others, by claiming God is on their side to the detriment of others. People don't go to hell for disagreeing with you. Believe it or not.
My problem is I see people as basically trying to be good, and sometimes failing. You see them as basically trying to be bad, except for you and those who agree with you. The two philosophies would, naturally, produce different cosmic outcomes even if begun from the same starting philosophy.I think she wants everyone to forget those examples, and the ones you posted from them earlier today. This makes sense of all this other song and dance stuff we are seeing without merit, while accusing all the more for things that turn out to be nothing, Not even just in comparison to those levels of things being said, but just literally nothing....
On a more random note.....
My only goal is to get her to wake up. Does anyone else remember the old Emile like I do? Am I only seeing it so starkly because I was gone for so long? I know Beth has to see it at least..... Emile was accused by some that now support her wholeheartedly for stalking Beth one time, because she came to her aid so much or something. That was one among many things....
The same spirits that used to be here and seen through other people, seem to be here again though the people are gone. How strange is that? Now some people seem to be gone, and with just a shell here. I miss them and its heartbreaking. A good and loving friend, even if that would be a stretch to call myself that even in the old eyes looking at it, would do just as I am here these days for another friend. I hope they would for me.I've seen a lot of good stuff from her in the past and she had and perhaps has a good relationship with Beth. She took me to task long ago calling me a Nazi for believing in hell, so although we have had some good exchanges, I did take personal offense and she has never wavered on the point. Still not clear on why if all believing in hell are Nazis, Will isn't. I do know what you mean though.
Of course!!!
thank you for the eye of criticism. It is sharp. You see it like I do. And many others.
I honestly believe it to be the season...
Reasoning, especially insightful reasoning, is a huge conduit for marvelous accomplishments. As you stated, it was once a "simply fair-minded" approach. But how long does our father allow one to remain lukewarm? You know that it's his least favorite flavor.
When you view God, things change. Time for decision. Some, to keep from looking stupid, back-peddle from his presence.
Hence...
Make sure you point out the vitriol against the believers themselves, not at their beliefs. That is what you said you would do, is it not? Beliefs are fair game for criticism, etc. They have no feelings to be hurt. It should be a long list of personal attacks you're compiling of believers and non believers alike, yet is strange no bannings took place if that actually happened.
I don't blame you for wanting to get some fair response, but there is a lot more going on than is clear to the casual observer. For instance, a number of things could be generating the negative behavior we see.
Behavior that suggest shock and awe at being told and shown how wrong and non factual the put downs are, as if they didn't do it at all. Not only that, but seeming to be absolutely sure they are not in the wrong, while others are doing the very same and maybe worse to them. Their sheer confidence is all that is needed with their supporters, as far as proof.
What actually explains the phenomenon and ironies I think are included in the teachings of Jesus, the very thing so often in question. The bible and its teachings comments so much on the character of man, morality, good and evil, etc. I also believe it is in each of us to have a conscience given from God, even if that person denies God. That God given conscience doesn't allow for maltreatment of anyone really, the slander and put downs, to actual more serious persecution. So I think they reason away that uncomfortableness that arises when treating people we have seen even just today is soothed by denying it, and claiming it is being done to them instead. Some seem to ACTUALLY believe they aren't doing the very thing they are, while claiming you did nothing when it happened to them, or did or are doing it to them! This is unworkable for obvious reasons, and the problem persists.
What explains such behavior outside of different psychological conditions is once again, the bible and its take on man's problem. Seared consciences might be one answer, closed or blinded eyes that don't want or can't see, and any number of other things. This makes sense of the support of bad things we see, and the prophecies do also. Many have mentioned them like calling good evil, and evil good. The illogic, inconsistencies, not calling a spade a spade but claiming they are, are all just some of the clues exhibited that something is very wrong. Something that is much bigger than I can fix with reasoning and encouragement, and not returning in kind, etc.
Its a noble effort to try, but HP in the past has leaned toward support for one side in particular, and many of us have seen it. It helps support what you are trying to fight really, and I can always hope for better in the future. The mental game playing is just something i have had to choose to not be a part of any longer with those it happens with. Its my small way of being able to deal with it after trying everything else.
I am here to discuss the things that I think really matter, and those include life, people, origins, God, religions (because they all mean so much to so many people), and much more. My assumption going into any conversation is that we are all on at least the same page of esteeming and expecting reason, logic, facts, and morality to be the same generally, among us all. When I see people going deeper into a topic and begin to see those disappear one by one as they often do, then we have lost the basis for reasoned and fair discussion. I knew better than to get involved in this one, yet I did, because of my past dealings and hope I could see some reason or rethinking. It went downhill and each of those things disappeared before long...the reason, logic, facts, morality, etc. What matters are fair judges with the same ideals, and that is something this whole world is esteeming less and less. Thus what will unfold in time, that was predicted, and hopefully that clue will count then, but I worry it won't to the ones that will be hurting others ongoing.I agree. What I proposed from this thread would in the end be but a thumbnail image of what we see in the forums at large. Surely a waste of time if the hope is to have the purveyors own up to it or even see it for what it is. Do you think it would be a waste of time as an expose for other readers though? I don't really want to wallow in the mire and not sure I even want to see the result.
Bberean, why do you say this to me? I wouldn't ask you to ever apologize for God.
I am just fleshing this out with Emile, seeing if the points go through or not.
I am with Jesus, btw. I think he got it all right.Sorry, I meant this as a concise agreement with some of your points, not as levied against you in disagreement. I can see where that could be misunderstood and I apologize. I felt I was reiterating part of your statement in quoting Jesus.
It was rhetorical. He loves you. You are of his heart.
Yes, that kind of scripture is exactly what Mark is talking about. No need to apologies for any God's, but perhaps it time to stop defending the harm that the bible (not God) has caused so many people, just as it's time to stop defending the Quran for causing harm to so many people. The bible, quran and the book or mormon have been used to harm people for who they are. Homosexuals have been killed are are still being persecuted and slavery has been used because of the words of these so called holy books.
Will you not apologies for any of that?People will use what they want to justify wrong actions. Jesus was giving folks a heads up there, not calling for violence against anyone.
With the exception of ourselves. He's asked us to cut off our hand or gouge out our eyes.
No need to apologies for the actions of others, that's not what I said. It would be nice however to apologies for the harm that has come from the result of misunderstandings of the scripture. One could say that I'm sorry if my holy book can be misunderstood to enough of an extent to cause harm to others. Causing harm to homosexuals is a misunderstanding right?Your call for an apology is to infer responsibility and accountability by myself and or scripture for the wrong actions of others. I am sorry to see mankind treating one another so poorly. Shall I take responsibility and apologize? Explain your logic.
Simple, your holy book has caused harm to others that wouldn't have happened without your holy book. Do you feel your holy book fairly treats homosexuals and do you feel they are being treated fairly as a result of what your book says?
Not as a result of following the bible, no. Using it as an excuse for wrong doing? Sure, that happens with lots of things as people will look for excuses to justify their actions.
What does the bible say to do with homosexuals and unruly children?
Love them, as you love yourself. Uh... Jesus. Were you listening?
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
"7 “Do not judge so that you will not be judged. 2 For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and [a]by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?"
Matthew 7:1-3
"and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
Mark 12:30-31
Don't apologize for God. Apologize for your own misdeeds in how you pass judgment on others.It is not judgment to recognize. And "there is no God!" is not a "speck".
Love God means, say what he said, do what he says.
Now, if I were walking along happy and obvious to the quicksand ahead...I would definitely want someone to shout loudly, with intent, "QUICKSAND AHEAD!!!"
That is the kind of "love" God expects of us. He showed me how to love, his way.
Men don't have a clue...And, of course, by "love" you mean judge and despise, yes? I don't think Jesus showed you to do that, because he never did that by his own example. Mary Magdeline was a prostitute. Did Jesus ever have a heart to heart with her, telling her how evil she was? Or did he extend love and tolerance to her, and genuine forgiveness, which caused her to love him and to want to turn away from her lifestyle by seeing that example of love and tolerance? He loved her for who she was, he didn't judge or despise her for what she did. Jesus preached love and tolerance, and most self-proclaimed Christians today know nothing of these concepts. Not all, obviously, I'm one who happens to be very tolerant of everyone and their sins. If you ask me, is it wrong to cheat on my wife, I'll tell you plainly that you aren't showing love to your wife by cheating on her. So yes, it is sinful. But you know what? I'm also a sinner. I have fallen short of the glory of God many times. What makes their sins worse than mine? Are you denying that you are a sinner? What makes the sins of the fornicator or the adulterer or the prostitute or even the murderer worse than your own sins? Even the non-believer. Are his sins worse than yours or mine? Maybe, but is it our place to make that decision or should that responsibility of God?
Thank you, Mr. Avitt for your question!!! I am thrilled you asked. And even MORE thrilled that the woman, was your illustration of love.
Picture this:
Jesus: Woman, Your sins are forgiven. Go, and sin no more.
Woman: Ain't no God ever helped me! Just some fairy tale my granddaddy told me! Get the hell away from me! And take your silly blasphemous and conditional forgiveness with you!!!
Oh, and also, this
"Men don't have a clue..."
was an extremely sexist comment and it betrays your own self-righteousnessMen, meaning human race... you a feminist? I'm a girl, so I understand.
i'm absolutely not a femenist. Femenists are in the business of trying to subjugate men, the same way they claim that men subjugate women. I'm about true equality. No one is any better than anyone else, just as no sinner is any worse than any other sinner. I try really hard, and it isn't always easy which is why I said try, to live up to Christ's commandment to love our neighbor as ourself. So yeah, I'm not a fan of femenism because I think that it is just another form of discrimination and intolerance. Instead, I try to live by the example of love and tolerance that Jesus Himself showed to us.
"11 Don’t speak evil against each other, dear brothers and sisters.[a] If you criticize and judge each other, then you are criticizing and judging God’s law. But your job is to obey the law, not to judge whether it applies to you. 12 God alone, who gave the law, is the Judge. He alone has the power to save or to destroy. So what right do you have to judge your neighbor?"
James 11-12Those ideas..... I can be on board with....
By the way, welcome to HubPages, William Avitt!Who did JESUS say his brothers and sisters are??? You know, I read that scripture today! Funny that...
I think my stance has been obvious in that although I admire chivalry, I think it misguided in this case. I would hardly call it flattery if I think its misguided in that he is valiantly supporting the accusers of the brothers and sisters while admonishing the innocent of charged. I can admire and even empathize with his chivalry and what I believe to be misguided chivalry, because I was myself recently in the same position. I saw not long ago a woman who I used to think was fair minded, exposing herself to inevitable unfair punitive action. With my own misguided chivalry I placed my own head on the chopping block to create a bigger target, that I paid an exceedingly high price for, to my later regret, because the lady did not merit the act. As far as anyone being a heretic, thats just a running gag.
The degre if desperation now is obviously clear. Just another clue.
You were right just there that it wasn't warranted at all, after all. Glad I'm not the only one that sees it.The amount of effort you are exerting to refuse to attempt to understand both sides is telling also. Glad others see it too.
Irritating when its thrown back at you. Isn't it?No, it isn't because what you are saying isn't completely true. Some people on HP need to be reminded that something has to actually be true to be actually true. I have listened to your responses, and reasoned back and forth with you. Reason can be attempted, but not forced. You are no longer engaging in reasoned responses, so its time I wind things up. As usual, I gave it several attempts before being thoroughly sure, to my own detriment.
Edit:
All I have done since I got in here is try to understand your side. That is what is untrue. Your points in response have to make sense and fit, and have a logical factual parts that fit. Something, anything that makes sense. It isn't to be done, because it doesn't work. This is why I see a lot of the anger and vitriol, as truth isn't on the side of untruth and I think its harder to support and makes people angry. Rather than looking at ones own self to see if they are doing anything wrong, its so much easier to do what we are seeing. Judging, accusing, and blaming, even some pretty horrific things as of these last few pages.Another self righteous post? Damn. Wonder how I got so lucky as to warrant two of them.
Because it isn't self righteous, its the truth, and I am responding to your posts. You seem to not be interested in real truthful dialogue. So there is no point in me saying another word to you. I made sure before I came to a decision, but I am sure. You can malign me all you like now, and won't get a response from me because I won't be reading your posts either. People aren't so stupid as many on here take everyone to be.
You now have the support of those you used to be saying the very same things to, that I am saying to you. If you insist on not seeing screaming irony in that, so be it. They are still at it, the way they always have been. Now you have joined them, and have their approval, congrats. I am the same as you have always known me. Any of us can beg you to see this, but that seems pointless at the moment.
As with so many others here, this isn't about truth, logic reason and facts anymore. So all I would have left at my disposal is to treat you in like manner, and I won't do it.Too pointless and hurtful. I don't care if you see this as a self righteous post either. It isn't ,but this isn't about truth anymore. Your judgements are not fair. Things have gone opposite with you, and I will look at your posts as such. I have had to do this with many others, and recall talking with you about this in the past. You understood it or seemed to.
Take care Emile, and I wish you the best.
He may not know you as well, but I can't for example, understand taking your comment as sexist and you being self righteous, as if you did have all the answers or something. It does make sense to me also that humans don't have a clue, compared to God their maker, in this context.
I don't think they are any better at eating crow than they are at swinging wildly.
People are coming in perhaps assuming the best about the OP, and thinking OMG, thats awful! That is what I did. I think next, we see who is mainly being "gone after" as its quick to pick up on. Perhaps its a getting on the bandwagon, to help fight this horrible injustice of a person that speaks how they want to speak that might not be liked by many or all here. She doesn't stop..... But its not criminal and I have pointed out the problems with what I have seen. Some truly don't care, this is a one sided thing..... He speaks like he knows she has done some horrible judging and acting towards others for being so brand new, she may have had a point in her one response.
I sometimes think people truly assume others of a different mindset or belief are truly stupid.
The fierce passion with which he speaks, indicates he knows me for sure. And hates my guts already... L O L...
However, you are correct. Humans want feel good. Cuz it's real good... God says... well you know what he says...
"The fierce passion with which he speaks, indicates he knows me for sure. And hates my guts already... L O L..."
I don't hate you. If I come across as speaking with passion, it is only because I am very passionate about God and the church and it really bothers me when people are judgmental of others in the name of God because 1. it flies directly in the face of what Jesus and the Bible actually teach and 2. (and this is the really important one) Christians who are self-righteous and pompous and judgmental and for some reason feel it is in their job description to tear people down, they aren't doing anything to minister to people and bring them into the church. All they are doing is pushing people away. And that isn't good. And it makes the rest of us look bad. So I take umbrage with people who are constantly making me have to apologize to non-believers or weak believers who could be on the verge of backsliding because of the harsh judgments of fundamentalist Christians. I don't apologize for the word of God, but I am constantly having to apologize for people who pervert it to facilitate their own self-righteousness. And just to be clear, I'm not talking about you. Also, if I misunderstood your statements, I apologize.
To answer your question, Jesus said that all who hear the Word and obey are his brothers and sisters. I don't understand where you're going with that, howeverMy Everlasting Love
is evident in the words that I speak. I have nothing but a sheer desire to please God... not men / and women, Mr. Avitt...
It is not good to tamper with the words of God, as they are.
They are the way that they are for a reason.
We cannot say we love a man and not warn him of his impending danger, just up the road.
This is not a playdate.
"It is not good to tamper with the words of God, as they are.
They are the way that they are for a reason."
Or to flat out ignore them, right? So why do you ignore the multiple times that Jesus and the authors of the New Testament warn us against passing judgment on others? Now, does this mean that we shouldn't help our brothers and sisters when they aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing? Of course not. But if you are going to try and turn someone away from their sin, you first have to acknowledge that you can't turn them from their sin at all. The most you can do is encourage them to see the sin AS sin and have a desire to turn away from it on their own. And the only way you can do it is with sincere love, understanding and forgiveness.
For example, your friend is having an affair on her husband. Do you go to her and tell her she needs to stop and that she's going to Hell and that she's not living up to God's commandments? I would hope you wouldn't, because all that's going to do is breed resentment in her. I would hope that you would just go to her, and talk with her, and ask her why she feels the need to do this to her husband and encourage her to talk to him about what their issues are and explain to her that you love her unconditionally, but that she is making a huge mistake and that she is going to end up hurting everyone involved. Tell her that above all, and (this is the important part) EVEN IF SHE CONTINUES WITH HER SINFUL LIFESTYLE, that you are her friend and that you will always be here for comfort and advice and whatever she needs. I won't lie for you, I won't support you in making these wrong decisions, but I am not going to shut you out or turn you away because you are engaging in something I don't agree with. That is the attitude that we need to go to others with. And it is of utmost importance that we understand ourselves first, and then reassure them, "Hey, judgment belongs to God. I'm not here to judge, only to guide and if you choose not to accept the guidance I offer, that's ok because I still love you and we can still be friends." That is what Jesus expects of us. Hate the sin, love the sinner. And always recognize the fact that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
You don't get the reference meaning mankind? Quite a reach in an effort to be offended.
It wasn't a reach at all. I took her at the way she worded the comment. You see, using the plural (men) denotes that she was speaking of people of the male gender. If she truly meant "mankind", she should have used the singular "Man". She should have said "Man doesn't understand", because there is only one mankind and thus can not be pluralized. She wrote the comment improperly, which led to me misunderstanding the comment, which later led to me APOLOGIZING for misunderstanding the comment and her intentions behind it. But since you seem to want to take things out of context, I wouldn't have expected you to point out that I voluntarily corrected my own misunderstanding and apologized for it. And I never was offended.
Lol. How hypocritical to claim nobody should judge while in the same breath judging for the perceived judgment. See how contradictory your simple interpretation of this teaching is? Your use of those verses in that way makes clear you have no understanding of what's being taught to who or how they fit in the context of scripture. I doubt you want to, as you inappropriately wield them in unison with the unbeliever seeking to escape accountability, and to do otherwise would not make you popular with the world. The unbelievers will applaud your support and shared tactics.
As a matter of fact, Sir, it is you who does not understand or know the Word of God. I offered really no commentary on those verses, I just quoted them. I'm sorry the Word of God offends you, but it is what it is. As for your assertions that I was judging while saying that others shouldn't and that I am therefore a hypocrite, I put to you that I am just fulfilling my scripture-bound duty.
"9I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13But those who are outside, God judges."
1 Corinthians 5:9-13
In this verse, Paul is clarifying something that he wrote earlier, and which was taken way out of context and misunderstood (imagine that). The early Christians were distancing themselves from non-believers and treating them like a lower caste (again, imagine that) and Paul explicitly said that was not what he meant and that they should stop doing that. What he meant, as he goes on, was basically to not tolerate anyone who claimed to be a believer but was acting contrary to the teaching of Jesus and the Apostles, and to set them straight right there on the spot. You see, Paul knew that if the early church continued to act in that fashion they would be seen as no better than the Pharisees and no one would take them seriously (once again, imagine that). When people act contradictory to the teachings of Jesus, and claim to be doing it in his name, they make all of us look bad, which is what we have in this world today. We are not to be of the world, but Paul makes it quite clear in Corinthians that we absolutely are to be IN the world and not to separate ourselves from it and act like we are better than the non-believers. That is for God to determine, not us. However, if a self-proclaimed believer is teaching the wrong thing and doing the wrong thing, it is absolutely our place to set that person straight in order to protect the integrity of the church.You contradict yourself with judgment dripping from your continual posts of how you don't judge. You don't even see it. This is hardly the venue to correct this. Your examples are out of context. You quote 1 Cor 5, but whatever to do you do with 1 Cor 6? There are a great many other examples which need to be understood in context, which requires spiritual discernment. Your even mixing judging between believers, judging non believers, and what is meant in the different examples by judgement. We don't judge a person's final destination, but we certainly are to judge doctrines, teachings, beliefs, fruits and behaviors in order to warn where they will lead if continued or pursued.
Contending for the faith vs placating itching ears. One is offensive to the world the other embraced. As predicted by Jesus Himself, one is continually waning in these last days. Of course, the other builds mega churches. Welcome to Hubpages. I have no doubt you will find an adoring audience. I will watch with interest.1 Corinthians 6 goes on to continue to talk about correcting believers when they are in the wrong, as you are. Paul points out that we have courts with which to judge whether someone has broken the law and he says that likewise the church should be the court by which believers are judged as to whether or not they are violating God's law. It isn't my place to judge you as a person, however it is 100% my place, and the place of all believers, to judge the false doctrines of our believing brothers who have gone astray. You see, you keep wanting to attack me for telling you that you shouldn't be judgmental of others. Of those who are OUTSIDE the church. That responsibility is reserved for God, because God can look inside their hearts. We can't do that, so we are not called to judge them. However, we can understand the word of God and so we are qualified to judge whether or not other believers are following the law. I've shown you multiple Scriptures that say you shouldn't judge, and that by the manner in which you judge others, that is the manner in which you will be judged by God. And I can't understand why this is so offensive to you. Let God judge those who are outside the church. He's the only one who is qualified. You keep wanting to turn everything back on me, I have
Scripture on my side. Scripture agrees with me. What have you got?Spirits are like fingerprints... this one, I know well... got many followers already. Don't know what's up with the "disguise" yet... but it doesn't matter. Oh!!! Ran away last time...never speaking to me again...
God is not like THAT!!!!!!! He is never hiding under a shroud of secrecy. His sheep know his voice... and though I do know THIS voice... I'd never follow...
Jesus is the way... this one edits... you are witness...Again, I don't understand what you're saying or asking of me. I haven't ran away from you
Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but are you calling me the devil? Because I'm preaching the love of Jesus and using Scripture to back up what I am saying? Because I'm saying that we are called to love our neighbors as ourselves and that we should leave the responsibility of passing Judgment to God, are you saying that makes me the devil? I really hope I am misunderstanding you
It will be interesting to see what doctrine ends up unfolding though. Sounds like it could be popular and lucrative. Might fill a really big church.
There is a ton of contradiction and inconsistency going on in this thread. To me, its the biggest clue of all really, when all else fails.
There's the problem. Superman appears to be contending for his understanding of the faith. Yet, here's a post by you supporting a statement that he lacks spiritual discernment because he disagrees.
I'm not following how this is indicative of an impartial observer.No, you are wrong on that Emile. I simply said there is a TON of inconsistency and contradiction going on in this thread, and that is true. Please be more careful, and try to see how obvious it is that you need to find fault with certain people, and why you support others that agree.
This is another example of your unfairness
So from what I can gather and from that fact they you seem to agree, we unbelievers are unable or shouldn't judge the morality of believers because they have different rules that we can't understand. Let's say you decide to live by biblical laws and kill your disobedient kid, who are we to judge right? Is that what you tell the police and judge "Your honour you can't judge me because doing so requires spiritual discernment"?
Sorry, guess what? We are humans as well, and we know when you've done something wrong. Perhaps your spiritual discernment is blocking that from your view. Spiritual discernment is your get out of jail card and it's only fooling you guys.
"This is why your religion causes so many fights."
No, that judge/standard mete thing only works well on the output to scratch ears. It is honey. The non fundies (whatever that is) are big bad bullying wolves with all that "ugly/tainted" bible talk.
The others, put band aids... Give tea n stuff...
I really believe the bible to be true...
The "or else" has already been established. You have become one of "them", Welcome to to the club btw, there is a small membership fee, but it comes with a T-shirt.
"But, one must not be surprised when assumed to be of like mind with those one publicly agrees with."
Strange statement from one who HATES to be juxtaposed with those with whom she openly (without fear or shame) agrees... maybe this one deserves some thought. Not another clever or well-spoken defense of hatred of all that is good.Part of a tactic I have been talking about is the use of conscience to manipulate, mobilize or to enlist others to target their spiritual foe. They have identified their spiritual foe, now they want to employ others to work against them, in their stead. People with some or good conscience makes the best soldiers. They might try to make some shallow argument or they will try to shame others into aiding them in their endeavors. Usually, more often than not, they will play on the conscience of others to manipulate them. If they can't shame them or use other conscience related strategies into becoming involved in their tactics and aiding them, then they will reassess that person as also a spiritual foe to contend with.
- Rad Manposted 10 years ago0
So, we have no real way of knowing what was going on in Hitler's head but he says he was on the right track, which he clearly wasn't. He clearly misunderstood the bible and he certainly was a misguided Christian. That said by your way of thinking if he repented in his bunker before his death he's as good a in.
I'm still not sure what the relevance of loving Jesus is? What would it matter to a God that is all good?
Example, two brothers from a father they have never been in contact with get a letter from their mother claiming to be from their dad, which states that he exists, loves them and will return. He says they should behave, but most importantly love him. One of the brother steals, murders, rapes, but believes the letters are from his Dad. The other suspects the letter are written by their Mom to keep them in line, but cares for others, gives to the poor, gets a job helping others and is kind to all. How is the more ethical/moral person? Who if the father shows up should get the fathers respect?
It's really just that simple.
All that being said you can pretend that the bible doesn't say that speaking poorly of the holy spirit isn't unforgivable or that it's misrepresented, but there are many Christian's who feel it's relevant can factual.I can give no better example than that of how you're the one leaving parts out, not me. You seem pretty determined to believe that, even though that is neither a good representation of the Bible or of most Christians. So I will leave it at that. You believe you have bolstered your argument, and I know you have bolstered mine.
One thing I will say, just because "most Christians" don't think it's relevant does not mine I do. But for me, as I've said over and over and over again, it's part of a bigger picture. Not a small part, not an unimportant part, not an insignificant part. But still part. And I've studied and wrestled with it myself.Okay, so you admit it's part of the picture, the story, but you don't believe that it's true? Do you believe that speaking poorly or saying the holy spirit doesn't exist is unforgivable?
I never said I don't believe it's true, nor did I imply it. What I believe is that as long as you're alive, you have the chance to repent and turn. Not mouth platitudes, not try to bs people or God, but actually feel remorseful for your sin and accept God's gift.
Judas Iscariot did not turn, even though he was remorseful. He did not accept Christ's gift.Okay, I glad you think we have a chance, but that's not what the good book says. Now, I don't think one should go and do whatever he likes because he's done something unforgivable anyway. Let's just hope that if there is a judging God, he's not the God of the bible, Quran or book of Mormon.
But the Good Book does say that. It does NOT say that once we've said the one bad thing (and there's actually not much agreement on what that bad thing is, btw,) we're damned forever. It does say that once we know the truth, we need to straighten up and fly right.
Sure, straighten up and fly straight, but it also says that may not get you in heaven and one of the things that may prevent us is speaking badly of the holy spirit. It says that's unforgivable.
Which is something that has been looked at up, down and sideways. It's not like theologians, and also people who are not theologians but are interested in holiness or at least in understanding what the Bible actually means, haven't come across this before. Or that they haven't thought about it. And the consensus, at least among conservative theologians, is that if literally anything said "against the Holy Spirit" kept you out of Heaven, then none of us would ever make it. Which would completely nullify Jesus coming down and dying in our place. And of course, if we can't be forgiven no matter what, and therefor Jesus' coming down was pointless and futile, and we know it wasn't, then there must be some explanation other than the most draconian one.
Does the bible say it's easy to get into heaven? If you stick to what it's said that Jesus said it difficult to get into heaven. Notice those who say that nothing is unforgivable are those who are wishing to get into heaven. Something like those who play lotteries. I have a chance.
You're right in that it certainly doesn't make it sound easy to get into Heaven. But difficult is not the same as impossible. And of course, all things are possible with God.
If its true that some distorted the scriptures and teachings of Jesus for power or politics, ruling of the masses, etc, AND if God allowed for his revelation to us to be so tampered with......
(bear with me....)
And then if people that became believers did so, to avoid the eternal flames only...
I wonder if it turns out to be otherwise, and there IS just an eternal annihilation of their soul, will they be upset with God for allowing them to be part of His eternal life, because they didn't quite get that other option of just a non existence?
In other words, they might have wanted an eternal death state of being, or non existence, OVER eternal flames/burning? My point in asking is no matter what, its the wrong focus I think. Its life vs death anyway. I wouldn't want to not be part of the eternal life, no matter the alternative. I don't want to any part of the eternally contempt side of things. This is assuming the worst, that people MIGHT have been successfully able to outdo God in what is meant to be HIS revelation to mankind. (IN the context of the playing out of many discussions here in this thread and in the past.) Thinking this out gives some perspective on the greater point of it all.You hope is eternal life! Eternal. When I was really small I wanted to live on earth forever, just to see what comes next. I love that part (seeing what comes next). I like exploring on my bike or in a car and seeing what's around the next corner, it's just part of my personality. But, I no longer want to live forever because I've realized what getting old does to you and to the people around and I've seem what happens when the old get old and lose the people they love and are left alone. Now, how would that change in heaven? Are we going to just imagine an better place where the old don't get old and everybody knows your name? Do we have houses, cloths, television, cards, food? Do we have to listen to the same stories of others forever? Do we sleep, what the hell can we do forever that will not bore the hell out of us? Can we decide to check out?
The whole concept is silly and immature and is simply preying on people fears and superstitions. It sounds like you want to go to a party with your favourite people, but will never be allowed to leave. The stuff horror movies are made from.
I find it curious that some want to not be accused of judging god or rejecting Jesus, as if there is some downside to that. Perhaps it is because there is some downside to that.
On another random note, on the topic of our "being guilty" before the one that gave us our consciences, or not.... On that idea...
Perhaps the discomfort we feel is like much of the other discomfort we feel in life and feel the need to address. Like discomfort when engaging in something that hurts us. Its uncomfortable, and we don't want our possible guilt to be a topic. Yet it has been suggested long ago, that our guilt is what brought us death, and then its been suggested that can be "righted" for those sorry for their wrongs, and to gain forgiveness and gain back the life lost. We want it all, to engage in the things that bring guilt, and we want to not have to be sorry for them, and we want eternal life, all at the same time. Then judge the "fundies or crazies" and even God himself and put them all down, for being so ridiculous....all while never looking in the mirror. No one denies this isn't a pretty topic, a tough one. The difference is there is good news, a remedy. Not all want this, and yet are not content with that outcome to the degree we see what we see.It's not so much that we reject God or Jesus, it's that we just simply don't believe you or what those like you say. Do you see the difference? If God or Jesus knocked on my door I wouldn't reject him, but you and those like you are not God or Jesus. You are just people with an opinion. Do you see the difference?
"I find it curious that some want to not be accused of judging god or rejecting Jesus, as if there is some downside to that. Perhaps it is because there is some downside to that."
I had to kiss the page!!! (now my screen's all wet...)
God KNOWS the heart... the mouth reveals it, in time...
To say, without saying, is a marvelous tactic that slips our very own mind, at times.
The Lord is simply amazing to me! He revealed this stuff eons ago! He knew!!!
All Hail!!!
Ok, my time may be limited, I'll try to go fast.I just hate people lying about me. Weird that.
I think a lot of our actions can be explained by what Jesus taught. I mean everyone's actions. Its not always pleasant to us, even hard at times. I think it is the key to this life and the next. Of course this is foolishness to some, but I wish it were not, and I am trying to as I can. Its important stuff, and not really that complicated in and of itself, though it is amazing. I don't think God had to do anything more than make us and just leave us to be our own undoing. I think God went above and beyond, and was sympathetic to our greater plight and state. So thankful....
- Rad Manposted 10 years ago0
"I am asking also, what are you going off of, rather than the bible, that is to be more trusted and accurate, than the bible?"
Right here is your biggest problem. How about logic and or reason. Is it reasonable to assume that the God that created the universe loved it when we sacrificed animals for him on an alter, but decided that was to much of a burden for us so he made himself a burnt offering so we no longer have to mess up the alters?
"to see if the person has accepted the free gift of forgiveness and life that comes through him."
Free gift? Well first and for most a gift is supposed to be free, one only says it's free to disguise the fact that it's not. If you are ever in a mall and someone ask you if you would like a free gift you know there are strings attached. So what strings are attached to this "free gift"? I have an offer you can't refuse. oceansnsunsets, I believe you to be genuine. I appreciate that quality. As you hopefully know, no one has "called" her anything.
The words of scripture are a mirror. Properly dividing scripture at the precice time, produces a memorable impression. I am starting to see that, clearly.Thank you Genaea, and I admittedly don't see everything.
The scriptures are actually pretty hard to take at times, because it "steps on our toes" and who of us likes that? No one, generally. That this might be seen as a person being wrong is possible, but harder for me to know without examples. So I am keeping an eye out to see if more are offered up. I was going off of what she shared had happened in the past and responding.
In the meantime, what we do have to go off of is how we see people dealing with issues ongoing and how they treat those they disagree with, and that is a hard test. At least it is for me, because it asks of all of us to dig deep for patience, etc, as needed.
Oops. My skit has the WRONG woman...
Jesus: ... living water...
Woman: you aint got no living nothin!!! You must be asking questions or peeking around.
There is no God!!!In the last days, they will be eating and drinking and partying, on one accord.
As in the days of Noah...
Can you hear him???
"It's a storm a'comin' y'all... best git up, and get ready..."Sir, have you pictured Jesus at the well with your encouragement in sin???
"Girl, I know yo struggles. It's hard to keep a man!..."
He said, "Follow me."
Will you please, because I want to be clear... define judgment.
I have passed judgment on no one. Please give me one judgment on my part, if you can. I am oblivious. And speaking nonsense, if I am judge.
Are you missing me? Or am I missing myself?Well, my original reply about being judgmental wasn't directed at you, but then you replied to it with this:
"It is not judgment to recognize. And "there is no God!" is not a "speck".
Love God means, say what he said, do what he says.
Now, if I were walking along happy and obvious to the quicksand ahead...I would definitely want someone to shout loudly, with intent, "QUICKSAND AHEAD!!!"
That is the kind of "love" God expects of us. He showed me how to love, his way."
And I took that as you trying to defend the practice of passing judgment on others and trying to justify it as being out of love for them. If I misconstrued your intentions, then again, I apologize. I don't know what is going on in your head, but I am enjoying having this conversation with you. And I don't want you to think that everything I've said has been directed at you personally. It really hasn't. You have your position and are defending it, I have my position and am defending that. But there is no animosity or anything like that against you. I did read a comment you posted earlier about dealing with homosexuals by loving them as we want to be loved ourselves. That is absolutely the correct attitude to have. No one's sin is any more heinous than anyone else's sin. And, as I've said before, we are commanded to love the sinner and hate the sin. But yeah, if I have you wrong or have offended you in any way, I sincerely apologize.Oh, my post. Yeah, that... uh... I'm not gonna call you a beautiful mockingbird, if you're quackn' n' waddling.
Im not gonna call you an orange tree, if rotted figs are falling to the ground, as you speak.
Discernment is important in the life of one who wants to follow Jesus. We gotta watch, as well as pray...Fair enough. I'm not at all saying we shouldn't encourage people to live properly. Absolutely we should. And I outlined how to properly do that in my adultery example. But most Christians don't live by that example that Jesus showed to us, and, sadly, that is why this thread exists in the first place. The original poster was expressing disappointment in Christians that act in that way and are very judgmental. And it is really sad because, as I said, that behavior turns people away from the church and does not in any way help to win souls for the Lord.
If Jesus was right, and we are all resurrected one day to stand before God, I wonder if it will "fly" that there were people that were judgmental or fringe so I rejected the whole thing or avoided church for that reason.
Thing is, God knows all hearts, including when people are giving excuses. So its good to bring that up, that reminder to people. Its made into something much larger than it turns out to be. I know as I assumed the worst with the OP, and have been asking.
I think the most I can find is that some don't like how others speak out about God, and their relationship with him. They also have views and speak out on all kinds of things, but its some particular people this is being made about, their vocalizing and HOW they do it. Instead of opting on using other options to deal with hearing unwanted views of things, this option was taken.
So I brought up many things about how important all of this is, life now and eternal life, and is it worth making the excuse of those we don't like how they talk, to lose our eternal souls (the most extreme example). Of course it isn't, but its being played out like they are at some horrible fault for saying things perhaps very different from themselves. I see a LOT of hypocrisy on here also and am pointing it out. Not to judge or wag a finger, but most on here don't like hypocrisy and may just not be seeing it. When/if its all just insisted upon, we can see the problem for what it is.Being new, I thought you might want an overview of what has been going on, because it would be hard to jump in at this point, and the OP is so sure, I think you might be assuming the worst with them, but I would give it some time to see if the "crimes" are really worth the treatment. I think some are just mad some won't shut up. Those same won't ignore the person and engage in what we see instead, and blame them for the conflict. We don't look inward enough sometimes, or if we do, we truly don't care.Hey. I think you are not getting what my problem is. Opinions are like, well you know. We all have one. We won't always agree. I don't think we were meant to. But, those who consistently put forth the claim that their opinion is that of a higher power and....
You know what? I've explained this ad nauseum. If you are still putting forth that argument, I'm not certain further explanation would serve a purpose.
Discernment is important, (and scripturally sound) especially today. Is it possible that God has sent Mr. Avitt aka Superman to protect you from the accuser?
Highly doubtful. But, if it makes you feel better to believe so....bully for you.
A more fun (and equally ridiculous assertion) might be to suggest it's my sock puppet.
Edit. I do find it interesting that pointing out a perceived problem is an accusation when done by me, but when done by the fundamentalist it's somehow sharing God's love. What's up with that?Why, I think so! Mr. Avitt was sent to protect me for sure! Didn't he say he was "saved"???
I wonder what would happen if I asked him/her about the Holy Spirit that rests, rules, and abides with his/her people...
I did not take that comment to be passing judgement on anyone, and I have been following along for a while.
I think those that would take it AS judgement, are just mad she is reiterating her view of what the bible is also warning about. She is vocal, and the message hits hard because people maybe don't like the message about turning from things, and I know because its hard for me too. She isn't wrong however in using the "quicksand ahead!" example, if there were to be something like quicksand ahead. This is the person you want WITH you on the trail of life, not mad they seem judgmental for pointing out pitfalls.
That there is far more going on behind the scenes makes sense of how this all gets turned around, as it often is in the forums. Just thought I would share my response to the comment you thought was judgmental, and you can take it or leave it.Reiterating one's view is not the same as claiming God said it. Everyone has a view. Those who attempt to push it as God's cannot claim blasphemy when someone disagrees. They can't claim God is being slandered when their opinion is challenged. Actually, they can. And this is the result.
Reiterating one's view is not the same as claiming God said it. Everyone has a view. Those who attempt to push it as God's cannot claim blasphemy when someone disagrees. They can't claim God is being slandered when their opinion is challenged. Actually, they can. And this is the result.
Its just interesting, because normally if you would disagree with such statements, you might just assume this is someone's view, that they are claiming God said it. What skin off your back is that if someone even mistakenly might have that view? It is the same thing. You seem to keep missing this point. YOU and I ALSO have a view of what WE think God says and means in scripture, and I GET that you are being careful to now let any of that be shared now for obvious reasons, but normally its fair game. To some degree at least, you don't want to lay out the hypocrisy and I get that. To deny that YOU interpret or have views of what God said through the bible is absolutely the case. Its a lot of what we do on these pages, discuss what we think God has said.
The irony almost is that your actions I think show that you actually might put a lot of weight into the words some speak here that you are saying don't matter, or are dishonest, etc. That would explain the response more to me actually.
If you think it silly if someone calls it blasphemy, share that. Do you not think we all see it? Its not your usual talking, I get that, but I don't think its so criminal. You have made the points over and over. I don't see your OP as justified still, but I assumed the best and waited and asked. You have now shared a list at least twice that I caught, and I responded. I think we have covered all the bases, and while I am not happy with the results, I can let it be what it is. What else can I do. Its a free world, and your thoughts as presented in the OP till now are allowed, but I don't agree, and I even have pointed out and stood up where I thought it was wrong. I have given you what you say you never get from the other more mainstream Christians, and yet you want to think I am not getting it or not doing advisable things. Its nothing new, the making it a no win situation for one particular group here on HP, and its why so many leave or get banned while others get away with so much. Many Christians all seem to get what is going on there, but I also can't help but try and be a voice of reason to the rests, to just make sure and double check you are on or can get on a right track of thinking, when I seem to see the opposite going on. I think its my own disappointment in part, that I am dealing with if I am honest. I didn't expect what I see, and I DO have a bad case of assuming the best about all kinds of people, only to let myself down, and I shouldn't do that.I find it humorous they I have addressed these comments when they occurred from several people within the exchanges on this thread, and others, and now am being accused of not addressing them.
We see what we want in order to come to the conclusions we want. I'm not going to argue over this. I stand by the words in the OP, whether you understood my intent or not.
Edit. I would like to point out that the last thought in your comment does come across as self righteous.I am saying why not be happy with addressing them, and that surely I missed a lot. You are seriously not content to just show you disagree, and not seeing how you might be giving a lot of credence to others views that you want to be wrong or think are wrong.
You can't say I haven't tried to understand your intent. The last comment you can think is self righteous, but its an honest admission on my part and its 100% true. I do this also with some selective memory of past events and my husband would be the first to agree. He says I only remember the good, and sometimes want to only see the good, and it was not meant in any way to be self righteous. You know, if I remotely thought it was or could be, I would never say such a thing, because of the accusing way of so many here. Thanks for your judgement though, its noted.
I just truly disagree with you in your OP, I even thought it had to be for shock value. I don't think you are being a fair person in much of what you have said, or a fair minded person, and not seeing your own actions while judging so many others. Its a one sided way we see on HP, and in the past you stood up for the same. I think this is the easier path to take honestly, and there are benefits that go with that, and possible pitfalls. One thing being left out, is that there are other reasons at play that seem things so "off" sometimes, when it comes to the topics of good and evil, cosmic truths, etc. So not all is as it appears. My belief system makes complete sense of what I am seeing. I think all want to make sense of their strongly held views, and then we are left with what we see.
Sometimes, people are truly wrong, lacking in facts or morals, etc. Sometimes, they are not, but they need to be truly wrong, lacking in facts, reason and morals, in the eyes of others. I am ok with the wait, and I trust in goodness, love, and truth more than anything.
I agree with you Mr Avitt, I believe that Cgenaea does have the correct attitude
I find you have a very admirable and chivalrous demeanor Mr Avitt. You are quick to apologize for obvious misunderstandings that are no fault of your own, in some cases.
I agree with you an Cgenaea about " loving them as we want to be loved ourselves" as far as everyone is concerned, in general. Personally I am not willing to "label" all individual sin as "heinous". I think some are worse than others, but I agree with the spirit of your message, speaking of sin in totality.Well, this is interesting. We'll all be witness to find out if disingenuous fawning and flattery can divert the conversation.
Probably not, since he's also throwing the word "herectic" around. Maybe he's trying to distract while he collects wood for the bonfire to burn everyone in.
I'm sure it's a fantasy that keeps him warm at night.
Such a shame that we don't live in a theocracy that allows the burning of heretics, homosexuals and atheists any more. I'd say he may be more comfortable in the middle east, except they have the antiquated rules but a different god, and his beliefs would probably land him in some dangerous hot water.
I'm sure many fundamentalists would love to have a Christian form of an Imam, so they could issue fatwahs and send people out in the streets to beat us, or douse us with acid if we didn't bow to their interpretation. Their interpretation being every knee will bend to them, since they have the holy spirit and we don't.
Unfortunately, without that power they are left with the nany nany boo boo defense.Without the political powers, they're left to decide that not getting their way on everything amounts to persecution.
This is not "encouraging people to live properly". It is truth, that's it. Biblical truth.
Jesus did not pet the lady at the well, he confronted her. I confront myself daily. So check! there... he told her the truth over her lie to herself... he did not give her lollipops and soda. He told her, "I got something to give you for that. Water..."I think you're missing the entire point of the story of Jesus and the Samaritan woman at the well. He never confronted her or chastised her. He merely told her things that no one should know in order to prove himself to her. And she went away and told others of him. There is also something else that you're missing about the story. The woman was of a shunned caste and Jesus treated her no different than he treated the Jews. Jesus showed her love and understanding, but never judgment
I don't know where you are going to church, but they seem to understand who Jesus was pretty well. At least, it appears you do. This comment is dead on.
Well, since you were the person I was originally trying to reach in the first place, I appreciate that. Not all Christians are pompous and judgmental. The most are, and I apologize on their behalf for that. Don't give up on Christians because of the horrible ones. Hold them accountable for their actions, but don't judge all of us because of them
Well, I don't perceive those posting as Christian hubbers indicative of the majority of Christians. So, no. I wouldn't judge the faith by anything written here. I'm simply saddened by the fact that sometimes it appears that people I consider reasonable will not speak out, as you have. To ensure off the chart opinions aren't seen as agreeable.
I do get the 'brothers and sisters' thing and understand a desire to gently comment. But, there are those who forge ahead like a bull in a china shop. Who expect to be agreed with and cheered on, or you are accused of being against God or blasphemous. When people I considered reasonable express agreement and offer support to this type of behavior I begin to question the reasonableness of their entire position.So - most Christians are pompous and judgmental, but we should not give up on that belief system because of that. Can you give me a good reason not to do so please?
Well, you're going to believe or not. That's up to you and nothing I say will be able to convince you otherwise. My point was that you shouldn't judge all of us based on the actions of the fundamentalist zealots.
Why not? I know what you told me I shouldn't do - it was not "not to judge you all based on the actions of the fundamentalist zealots" it was "not to give up on Christians" based on the fact that - by your own admission - most of them are judgmental and pompous.
Give me a good reason not to give up on Christians based on the behavior of most of them please. Who should I be judging Christians on? If not the behavior of most of them?
In any case - I am not judging Christians - I am judging the ideology. If it helps make most of them act this way - I judge it a poor ideology.It isn't the ideology that's wrong, it is the false way these fundamentalist groups interpret the ideology to best suit their agenda of being able to persecute those who don't believe the same way they do, and it is to make them feel superior. I can't tell you why these fundamentalists feel the need to feel superior over non-believers because, frankly, I don't understand it. It goes against everything that is taught in the Bible, as I have already pointed out in my comments above. But I can make the same claim about a lot of Atheists, that they feel intellectually superior to people who choose to believe in God, and they can be just as pompous. Do I judge all Atheists based solely on the ones who are supreme jerks? I do not. Because that would be unfair. Just like I don't judge all Muslims based on the actions of those who want to blow up buildings and behead people who don't agree with them.
The Bible, at least in the New Testament, which is the foundation of the Christian faith and since Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament on the cross, the only part of it that really matters, teaches us that we should love our neighbor. And it specifically says time and time again that we are not to judge others, because we are all sinners and we have all fallen short of God's glory. So the reason I say that you shouldn't judge all of us based on the actions of even the majority (I hope it isn't the majority, but based on the believers I know personally, I can't say that it isn't) because there are those of us who don't behave that way. You're an Atheist. A lot of Christians will want to sit here and tell you that you're going to Hell and that you need to accept Christ as your personal savior and that unless you do I have nothing more to say to you. I'm not going to do that. Because 1, it's not my place to decide who will get into the Kingdom of Heaven or not. I will let God make those decisions and 2, I don't know that you're wrong and I'm right. I have my reasons for believing in God, and I know for myself that he exists, but I have no proof. No one does. And I know that it is very easy to write religion off because there is no proof. And I don't hold that against you. I don't believe in ghosts. I've never seen one, I've never seen any credible evidence in the existence of ghosts, therefore, they don't exist. I can't fault you for looking at God the same way I look at ghosts. There is no reason for me to believe, just like there is no reason for you to believe in the existence of God. And again, nothing I say can change that for you if you've made up your mind. But what I CAN do, and what I choose to do, is treat you with all of the dignity and respect that you deserve as an intelligent human being, just as I expect to be treated that way. Christianity is right for me, it doesn't have to be right for you. That doesn't diminish you as a person and more Christians would do well to realize that.But - the ideology teaches you that I am going to hell. The bible is clear on that - including the NT.
Whether I believe or not is a completely different question to me judging the ideology. The fact that you have decided to pretend Jesus in the NT did not tell me to fear the one with the power to send me to hell is neither here nor there.
But - does that mean I should be judging Christianity based on the small minority prepared to pretend that this is not the case? You are the one labelling yourself "Christian" and when I read the bible I find that to be an offensive ideology.
As I said - I am not judging Christians - I am judging your ideology. You do believe what Jesus said - don't you?I absolutely believe 100% what Jesus said. And Jesus talked very little on the subject of Hell. There were a few times when He described there being wailing and gnashing of teeth, but Jesus never really preached damnation. He preached redemption and forgiveness. Just as we as Christians are commanded to do. I'm not here to tell you you're going to Hell. Again, that's not my place. It's my place to share with you the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to love you unconditionally, whether you choose to accept it or not. What happens on the final judgment is between you and God and it's none of my business.
"But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him."
Your ideology teaches fear. It also teaches I am going to hell.
Why should I not reject this? You have not given me a good reason yet.Lol no, you're taking that wildly out of context. The point of that wasn't that you should fear God. Jesus was teaching the people, who did fear the church and who feared being sentenced to death by the Pharisees, that they shouldn't be afraid of the Pharisees at all. Sure, they might stone you and kill your body, but God has final judgment. Would you rather obey the corrupt church so they don't stone you, or would you rather follow God and know that he will save your soul? That is the entire point of what Jesus said. Sure, you can go along with the Pharisees out of fear that they will stone you, but then you might go to Hell for not listening to the true word of the Lord. This passage isn't to instill fear, it is to relieve you of your fears
I am not talking wildly out of context. It is clear - I should not fear the Pharisees - I should fear the one who has the power to send me to hell. Great - don't fear this fear that instead! lol
But at least you agree your god sends those who do not listen to hell - right? Which is where I am headed according to your ideology.I agree that, yes, some people go to Hell. But it isn't my place to say who is or who isn't. On this Earth, here and now, we're all in the same boat. We're all sinners. I can't tell you you're not going to Hell any more than I can know that I'm not. I hope I'm not. I believe in the healing blood of Christ. I try to be true to the Scriptures as I understand them, and I seek to learn what I don't understand, but no one knows for certain until that time comes.
You seem really fixated on this Hell thing. Why do you think you're going to Hell?I am not going anywhere. Nor am I a sinner.
My objection is to this fear based ideology and the sort of behavior it spurs. How do you beat your slaves? As Jesus commanded? According to the bible - I am going to hell to be punished for not believing. I find that a distasteful idea that makes no sense at all.
You have still not given me any good reasons not to reject this ideology.Interesting to see your doctrine unfold. Your unsure of the penalty and unsure if Christ has even saved you from whatever that penalty may be.
I'm not unsure of anything. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is salvation through Jesus Christ. Are you saying that you get to choose who receives the gift of God and who is deserving of death? Because we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Or do you claim to be without sin?
As I have explained elsewhere I view myself as Paul viewed himself and how realistically everyone should view themselves..., as the chief of sinners. I also know I am forgiven, not for any merit of mine, but through the grace of our Lord.
I am genuinely interested, with how you have downplayed hell and warning any of it, when you say the wages of sin is death, what do you think that means? What is salvation and why is it needed if your promoting the idea none are in danger of anything you need to warn of? Isn't the warning what you take issue with?*sigh*
I never said no one is in danger of Hell. In fact, I said the EXACT opposite. Some people will go to Hell. EVERYONE is deserving of Hell. We are saved from Hell by the free gift of God, through the blood of Jesus Christ and our faith in that sacrifice. But I can't see into anyone's heart. I refuse to tell someone they are going to Hell because the Scriptures plainly state that that decision is reserved for God. We are called to be teachers, not judges. We educate, we do not condemn.So if you see someone who is on that path, and I am assuming you are able to "judge" what that path would be, (not the person but the trajectory), are you not to warn of it? Why will they be interested in Jesus? Because He will make their life better with no problems? Because He will make them wealthy? Because of the easy path it is to follow Him? Say they are rich already, enjoying the pleasures of sin happily. What need have they of Jesus? RA makes clear he is not a sinner. Or do you warn them there is a need? What is that need? They have all the money they could want and all it will buy. On what grounds do you contend they need Jesus if you don't warn of the potential for hell, and their current path leading there?
If you would warn them of hell, let's go back to the beginning where you explain your railing against the "judgmental fundamentalist zealots" as you will be establishing yourself as one by your apparent definition. If you don't warn, how are you the watchmen on the wall you should be?Again, I rarely speak on hell. It is definitely a "not-so-fun-die" argument. Lol!!!
I like to tell of the good things he has done for me. The comfort he has given me when I was too ashamed to stand...
"This way!!!"
Not, "Wheresoever you choose to tread, Dumplin' He's own awl roads!!!"
The gift of God is received via faith alone. It must be received via faith.
"Oh, that's alright, Honey..." does not produce faith. But hearing the word of God, properly, creates a firm foundation.
Why did Jesus come? Did He "save" anyone? If so, from what?
___________________________
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
I've judged no person with that post. I absolutely point out where the Fundamentalists, I'm assuming like you, are getting it wrong. And they are hurting the church and causing people to turn away from it because they are acting like the Pharisees acted. Doing the EXACT things that Paul taught that we shouldn't allow to happen. Again, I've backed up everything I've said with Scripture. What do you have?
How do you determine the "horrible ones" without employing judgment, pray tell? Could it just be judgment you don't agree with that you find unbiblical?
No, any judgment against non-believers in unBiblical, as the scriptures I've cited show. Also, any judgment between 2 believers where one believer is at risk of leading others astray or making the church look bad IS Biblical. I've shared scriptures to support my understanding of God's law. Do you have any? Or are you armed only with your condescending words?
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First of all, if you'll notice, that comment was directed at someone completely else. Also, I know what the Bible says. It seems to me like you've been driven away from God by the same sorts of "believers" I've been decrying this entire time. But if you want to have a clear and open discussion about the Bible, again, I would be more than happy to discuss it with you. And if you want to continue to have hatred and resentment in your heart for Christians, that's up to you. And again, based on the actions of a lot of them, I can't blame you. I've tried to assure you that I'm not that way. Whether you believe it or not is up to you
Yes - I realized that was not directed at me - sorry.
But - please stop lying about me. I have no hatred and resentment in my heart for Christians - I have told you several times it is the ideology that I reject. You have yet to give me a good reason not to reject this ideology. Yes - all Christians say they are "not that way"
I am open to being given a good reason. Why have you not done so?I can't do that. You misunderstand the ideology. As do many Christians, so I don't blame you for that. I will be more than happy to help clear up any misunderstandings you have, as I tried to do with the verse you quoted above, but I can't make you understand the ideology without knowing exactly what it is that you find so distasteful. God doesn't want you to fear him. You don't follow God because you're afraid of Hell. If you do, your intentions are impure and God will not honor you. You follow God because you sincerely want to
I don't misunderstand the ideology. I can read as well as anyone. Fear the one with the power to send you to hell. Clear as a bell. Much as I am impressed that you know what god does or does not want, the bible speaks of fear many, many times.
Again, I'm sorry you find the Word of God offensive, and I'm sorry you don't properly understand it. Probably because you've been led astray yourself. I will be more than happy to help you discover what the Bible truly says and what it truly means to be a Christian, but you have to enter into it with an open mind.
Much as I love to see 2 different versions of The Nonsense arguing - this just makes my point. This religion causes nothing but conflict.
They must be lacking spiritual discernment. They should simply ask bBerean for the correct answer, he says he has it therefor has the understand those two are looking for. However if those other two claim to have it as well that would mean spiritual discernment is a load of crap.
When I first saw Superman, I must admit at first I was taken aback. But then I recognized the passion within him and wondered if he were heaven sent, an answer for quiet unspoken prayer to the Lord, seeing that the path of the righteous is beset on all sides by the iniquities and the tyranny of evil mankind. And I thought blessed is he who in the name of charity and good will shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children.And that he would strike down with his words, with great vengeance and furious anger, those who attempt to poison and destroy the brethren, so that we would know the name of the Lord
Guess this is where you pop a cap in my ass.
lol, you and RA know your pulp fiction
JULES
There's a passage I got memorized.
Ezekiel 25:17. "The path of the
righteous man is beset on all sides
by the inequities of the selfish and
the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is
he who, in the name of charity and
good will, shepherds the weak through
the valley of the darkness. For he
is truly his brother's keeper and
the finder of lost children. And I
will strike down upon thee with great
vengeance and furious anger those
who attempt to poison and destroy my
brothers. And you will know I am the
Lord when I lay my vengeance upon
you."
http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Pulp-Fiction.htmlYes, vengeance. So now we have vengeful and jealous. What else do you have? Kind of reminds of the school yard bully and his minions. The minions follow because they don't want to be bullied by the leader. I think it's time to grow up and stand up to the bully who isn't real.
Even dogs will not be lead by an angry unstable leader.
Well I was truly hoping Super-Pulp Fiction would accommodate you with his debate, but alas he was wafted away by the cheap perfume of disingenuous fawning and flattery.
You know there would be no conflict at all if you just had spiritual discernment.
This appears to be a typical fundamentalist tactic. Dig into the mud. Therefor, the Christian will be averse to the idea of following. Thus, the fundamentalist can convince themselves their 'stellar arguments' ended the debate
This divisive, Christian against Christian display is revolting to me. This is how they hope to bring people to Jesus? This fighting over "my doctrine is better than your doctrine and my denomination is more right than yours is because I said so" is juvenile and repulsive. This is the doctrinal version of a pissing contest. When did Jesus ever do that? Paul and Peter sure did though. Maybe they're trying to emulate the apostles, not the founder. Who knows. But this display of this kind of mentality is why I simply can't take their message seriously. Because of how they act with it.
What I find silly is the part where they say If you just believe exactly what I believe, you'll be a better person and learn the secret handshake and you won't be tortured forever. When I look at how they behave, however, especially towards each other, why would I want to be like that? It must be a huge ego trip to convince yourself that no matter what you do or say, you're just like god, and you're doing what he wants you to do, but that doesn't make it true. I don't see it. Maybe if their version of god is a colossal jerk. Maybe that's what they're going for, but there's no way I would want to wilfully strive for that.
The the concept of there God is one of a colossal jerk, that's why some claim one needs spiritual discernment to understand. We start with an admitted jealous God who needs his chosen people to atone for being human by killing livestock in a particularly bloody fashion. He then realizes that this isn't working so he comes down to earth with us, but can only convince a few people that he is who he says he is, so because of his own laws they put him to death which isn't death for him because he is also in heaven. Then we are supposed to believe that he made a sacrifice so we wouldn't have to keep killing goats which was his own law anyway and the only way we can get to heaven and avoid the pit of fire is to love the version of him that came to earth 2000 years ago. He could have simply avoided all that by understanding that we are humans and will do what humans do (caring for each other) rather than the ridiculous rules he made up.
I liken it to us not allowing dogs to sniff each others butts. It's what dogs do.I'm honestly about ready to check out on this entire forum. Although I don't share your feelings about Peter and Paul being involved in a 'pissing contest', I do agree that getting bogged down in these doctrinal issues (to put it nicely) hurts more than it helps. And then some of the believers and some of the non-believers also get into these contests.
Not contest Chris. War... (ooh I swyped your name and Christ came up!!!
)
I understand the frustration. For some reason, I am unphased by all of this.
It's like, I have NO feeling that I should stop.
Born to argue??? Maybe...
Me and my mom used to go at it! I'm NOT going to church! I'd yell. Yes you are!!! She'd screech (high soprano)... I reasoned her into many corners. but then she'd play the parent card...
We all know that no, will try to concur yes, til the trumpet sounds.
I want to be found, about my father's business, correctly, when I see my white light.
It is not wrong to spread truth over lies, no matter how many times it takes. I'm here every day. I'd rather it be worth my time.
No judgment or negativity in this post. I love your way.
It is troubling. And, I have contributed to the conflict. But, I do think more thoughtful and deeper thinking Christians should, at the least, speak out to defend their good name. These subversive interpretations shouldn't be allowed to be viewed as the primary Christian philosophy.
But it's a conundrum. If they speak out they are attacked and when they attack back they feel they become what they are fighting. I guess there's no real solution to the problem that is fundamentalism.That's the thing. The Christians, many of whom I know and like despite our differences, simply ran out of cheeks to turn after being repeatedly criticized, attacked and ridiculed - not by non believers, but by these fundamentalist types. They're going after those that share a belief in Jesus because they disagree over interpretations and actions far more vehemently than they disagree with those who don't buy it in the first place. It's repulsive to see that kind of behavior over and over again, chasing away some truly good, loving and honest people. Pretty soon only the fundamentalists will be left on HP. I think that's what they want. But if that's the only version ofJesus left here, I doubt many will want to join the club. What kind of good is that doing to win souls? Not a damn bit.
If she had said, "Keep your damn fake water!" What would have been his response to her?
And please back up your opinion with scripture. We seem to have a disconnect.But that wasn't her response to him. I don't think I understand what you're saying or what you're asking of me. We may, indeed, be having a disconnect because I don't understand what you're asking of me or what opinions you're wanting me to cite with Scriptures. I'm more than happy to do that, but I don't understand what you're asking of me.
There are two types of Christians that i have come across.
The first type being nice people that want to help others. They will share their religion with you if you want them to but will not force it upon you or make you feel inferior because you don't believe.
The second type being stuck up A-holes that look down on you like some bit of muck on their shoe. They believe they are better than you, they gossip a lot especially in church. They're kind of like that gang of kids in school that constantly make you feel uncomfortable. They will be nice when you first meet, but will then try and force religion upon you. If you don't like it, they will most definitely go back to their gang and talk about it.
This is why i stopped going to church. Too many nasty people disguising themselves as lovely beings behind the mask of religion. I feel for the other Christians that are actually genuine people who have to put up with people like that.And that's just really sad, isn't it? Those stuck up, judgmental Christians are doing more to turn people away from God than the devil ever could. Seriously, what's so hard about "Love your neighbor as yourself?" You said you stopped going to church, I sincerely hope you haven't turned away from the faith. We need more Christians out there showing love to one another and to non - believers
No, i haven't lost my faith. I was criticised for not going to church often enough, this was down to the types of people in that church.. Going to church is a personal choice, it isn't mandatory - though some believe it is. God will still hear you no matter where you are. You aren't rushed to church on your deathbed to ask for forgiveness or whatever it is you need to ask for in your very last moment of this life - you speak to him where ever you lie. If he can hear you there, he can hear me throughout the whole week whilst i am working. Some Christians agreed, the gang didn't.
The first type being nice people that want to help others. They will share their religion with you if you want them to but will not force it upon you or make you feel inferior because you don't believe.
Yes, just the kind of Christian that man is calling for, in these last and evil days.
Making one to feel inferior is the work of the bible. No one may measure up... we are inferior to God. That is why the instruction to take self (and your fragile feelings) out of the picture.
God says, "I told you to turn left." We say, "I know, Lord! But this way is much prettier."
He does not like disobedient servants.
The huddle went like this, "I know you are gonna face some tough competitors! When I went, they booed and hissed and acted all kinds of ignorant. They will do you too!!!"
Do they boo and hiss at you? Or do you get a round of applause?
If no, why? Was Jesus a liar???
There are nicer ways to push religion on people, darling. You are obviously part of a church gang that believe you are better than others. The reality of it is, more people believe in religion than you may care to notice - Just because they don't want it pushing on them, because they don't want to be apart of a group of judgemental people, doesn't mean they are any less better then you. When i say judgemental, i also mean petty judgemental.
"Ohhhh, look at what he's wearing"
" Oh dear, she doesn't have a clue what she's doing with that child. [Bicker bicker bicker]"
Let's be honest... if god were to come down into a church, who do you think he would throw out first? His genuine followers or the gang stood in the corner?
Some people have genuine reasons for not believing. i lost my faith for a very long time. My mum and step dad were killed when i was 9. I grew up without them and i convinced myself that there can't be a god - after all, what god would take parents away from 7 children and leave them orphaned? Later being scattered around England, Scotland and Wales?
What kind of god would do that???
So i lost faith. when i reunited with my family 5 years ago - 9 years after being separated, they forced religion down my throat. I obviously wasn't having any of it and they 'all' bar my nan and grandad disowned me.
They are fellow Christians
They, are fellow A-holes
You will be happy to know though, before you judge me, that i have regained faith but i have not regained faith in the church.
- Emile Rposted 10 years ago0
Reading through the conversations last night, I've begun to wonder. I know Superman said he goes to church. He seems to have a level headed understanding of Jesus.
What sect does he belong with? Did he come to this understanding through the church or of his own accord? I get the impression he has great fellowship with like minded believers.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but those bent on attacking his understanding....you guys go it alone. Right? None lead but what you are viewing as the holy spirit. (notice the lack of caps there. It's important)
If I've understood each of you correctly, I see a trend developing.
I like you super man. You appear to attempt to embody the spirit of Christ. It's always a pleasure to make this assumption. Even if only fleeting. It warms the heart.I realize he seeks to sooth your itching ears and this will make him quite popular, but will you be consistent? You have made clear on more than one occasion that to even hold a belief in hell is to be worse than a Nazi death camp guard manning the ovens. Is there now a red caped guard dressed in blue, or will you find an exception for him, somehow?
That's why i said if only fleeting. Those with a good understanding of the spirit of Christ have the hardest road to walk. Because they understand on some levels. They want to be his disciples. And that is difficult in this reality. With these eyes. With billions and billions of others one must find the means by which to be the embodiment of the spirit.
We all stumble and fall, but holding to the example will help us rise again and try again.
Yes. I find the doctrine of hell abhorrent. There are many I respect who hold to it. They rise above it, in this reality. Love God, love man. You have to understand love in order to understand how personal belief of cosmic consequences does not need to negate your ability to love, without redefining and bastardizing the term.An exception, only? I'm thinking he will be recruited and bound with the kryptonite of insincere flattery, to do their bidding. The antithesis of superman.
At first I thought we had the passion of David, come to defend the innocent, against Goliath. A Shepherd to fight the wolves as opposed to one that would fall in with their lot. C' est la vie
So!!! Round of applause, it is... Jesus, definitely was not a liar...
I'm sure the fundamentalists will attack me for this next, but I'm Catholic. I've been to just about any kind of church you could imagine, though. Most of my understanding of Scripture has come from many sources. Some of it from official church teachings, a lot of it through debate and discussion with others and some of it from my own understanding. I am blessed to belong to a great church. Even though Catholic teaching is very much against any kind of birth control, my wife has had her tubes tied. We felt that was the right decision for us and after much prayer on the subject we felt we had God's blessing. And we haven't had a single person in our church judge or condemn us for doing it. Most everyone is understanding that people need to make decisions that are right for them and everyone was supportive. It wasn't a decision we made lightly, but we have 4 kids and like I said, we prayed a lot about it. So yeah, that's me
Well, chin up. Your actions here have been a fine testimony to the love of Christ.
I have no idea what that means and your comments directed at me through this thread (and others) showcase the fact that whatever it might mean is of little consequence
Well I never!!! ...of little consequence... does she know...??? Ha!!!
I'll show YOU who's of little consequence.
L O L...
I have tried to get that message through for a long long long time.
God, is where the concerns should lie. But not many people believe that...Look. I am going to take Johnny's advice and walk away from this pointless exchange, but before I go I will reiterate. You do not speak for God. You are not defending God. You do not get to define God. The best you can hope for is to be the embodiment of the spirit. But, honestly, genaea. You need guidance from someone who can help you understand what the spirit is before you can begin to attempt to find that path. The path you are sharing here is far removed.
I believe the bible is a manual to life. However, with all manuals, sometimes you have to tweak it to fit your own circumstances. Just because the shed manual shows you how to build a shed roof, doesn't necessarily mean you can't build a gable roof instead. So long as it works, then it's a success. The bible helps you make right decisions, but there are many decisions in life that are the right ones. In this life, it's incredibly difficult to follow those guidelines to a T. I'm glad your church supported you. Some churches would have torn you apart like a joint of meat thrown into a lions den.
Don't go a tweaking on the bible. (Sounds like a Country smash hit.. Danger there! Men at work. Slippery when wet...
OK so maybe tweaking was the wrong word to use, but i'm sure you get the general gist of the reply. Sometimes you have to make different decisions
You ol Catholic tube tyer!!! Is that the attack you've wished for? Or do I need a bit more bass???
I'm divorced twice with two children who belong to different men... I win!!!
Won't stop me from knowing, bowing to, and telling truth. Truth leads to correction. I need it too sometimes..- Emile Rposted 10 years ago0
Actually, oceans, it isn't one individual. It's a mindset shared by many. Agree with us or you are stupid, making it up as you go, led by satan, lacking relationship with the spirit. Take your pick.
I'm sorry if you don't understand the problem. That's ok. But defending one side without actively seeking an understanding is not, in my opinion, advisable.I am going with the examples you are seeming to provide, Genaea is the sole focus here, and you are not sharing more. I did respond to the other list like this one. I do get it actually. To me, its very clear, but what isn't clear is the outrage for the "crimes." I am not seeing the comments you speak of, but have in the distant past, or maybe truly missing them. Even so, I already responded. I am not unclear on how some here want to make some people be, while acting like they are doing nothing wrong.
I am only mentioning it over and over in case people might care about it. I think they do not. I can stop, but the truth remains.
"Its not one individual....." Why not point it out as it happens? I also see it not being one individual on the bandwagon response....
You see, when you point out a perceived fault of mine, it shows I am/was assuming the best about you. I know of at least one other person you mean, and I addressed that. I understand now how much this means to you that you hold on to tightly to things despite working through the ideas to see if they even hold water. Truth is, you seem to be mad that people say things like "making it up as you go?" Do you even read my posts, and not see what you yourself post? I think I have said my part a few times over. That is sufficient. Oh well. I find you and your side to be unfair, and am so glad you are not my judge. So glad.
Who could have sought more understanding than me in these last several posts from me, since I got in here? Because of how you have conducted yourself more fairly in the past, is WHY I gave you the benefit of the doubt. One sides quirky ways of talking are being magnified, one side seems to be completely ignored by you. I did seek understanding, and this is part of why I find you to truly be unfair in your assessment of these things. Oh well, people do change I guess. Btw, this isn't defending the comments like you are stupid, led by satan, or not led by the spirit. I think those are not supportable. As I said before.Oceans. It is my contention that everyone 'makes it up as they go'. We read. We seek understanding. We draw vastly different conclusions. These are our conclusions. We are all seeking. To present an opinion as fact while implying other opinions are made up is hypocritical and dishonest.
None has the right to attempt to convince others they are not worthy of opinion because, by their opinion, others lack spirit. It's rather selfish.
You can believe whatever you want. As can I. What we do with our belief makes a difference. I can't stand by and not speak out against what i consider arrogance, selfishness, etc. This doctrine is predicated under the assumption a magical key exists. I chose to speak out against it because I believe this belief is solely designed to be used to step on the backs of others in order to raise oneself in one's own eyes. I don't believe it is a cosmically approved belief.
You are advocating that one belief structure be allowed carte blanc right to function without opposition. Could I ask why?You don't see how you chastised one person and stopped talking to them for saying the exact same thing about making it up as you go, well ok. How can anyone present an opinion as fact, that is splitting hairs and claiming you have some insight into another's mind almost.... if you are simply going off the semantics in order to justifying judging others while not wanting to be judged by them. I have pointed out numerous times also, what I see as hypocritical and dishonest.
The fact we are all in here and discussing anything I would have THOUGHT meant we automatically knew we all have opinions. Why do you let it be such an offense to you when SOME say you lack spirit? You are almost giving credence to the idea for the severe knee jerk response, are you not? I will tell you Emile, that I don't think a truly spirit filled person should be telling a non believer they are not filled with the spirit, as they are. If that is how it was said, as you present there. I don't think Christ would do that, and its more of a topic you would speak of in church or among friends. Its not going to win anyone over, but I haven't seen comments like this in a while to be honest. I think what is happening is you are letting some views of what I think are more of a Pentecostal background or leaning, really get to you. I don't blame you though for asking them to stop that if/when it happens, because its not helpful in any of the discussions we could have here really, that I can think of. If I am wrong, I am wrong, and would look into that.
If anyone has REALLY made you feel that you are unworthy of an opinion as you say there, then I do also disagree with that. Of course you have an opinion, and all I have seen indicates others do as well. Also, "in the eyes of who?" In whose eyes, do you think they are not saying you have an opinion? God's? If so, why are you giving so much credence to that, if you just think they are so out of line and wrong anyway? Emile, you DO have an opinion obviously, and you ought to share it in forums. The thing is, we can be fair or not, fair assessors of things or not, and can fall into the trap of doing the very same things we are being accusers of ourselves, Right?
I think you sharing your beliefs about these other beliefs here sheds light for me at least, because it does explain your strong reaction some. If you think people here are supporting and sharing ideas that indicate stepping on the backs of others in order to raise themselves up in their own eyes, share how and why you think so, WHEN they do it, and then I can agree with you perhaps. The people you seem to be speaking of, for stepping on the backs of others supposedly, get the most heat of all, and show the most strength of all I think. They take much more heat than they ever give. How, in having your opinion here, are you not having your opinion heard, and why can't others disagree with you? People that are strong in their belief don't call the shots in the cosmic realm, nor could they. I would love to hear what you think is the cosmically approved belief, and what you use to discern that others are wrong when you think they are, and you clearly do. The forums should be a great place to do that or a hub. At least the others are laying their views out for all to see, and they get huge response. Disagree with their doctrine, and admit you have one of your own too which is strong enough that you have to speak out against others.
Your last sentence there is absolutely false, just to correct that error. So your question is moot, because the statement before is false. Can I ask you why you would say such a thing? That doesn't sound like me one bit, and you should know better. I think all views need to be tested and hard, and not afraid one bit to test my own or others belief structures. I am also able to admit I have views and others do as well. Holy cow Emile.....The one you claim I 'cut off' was simply accepting the pointlessness of continuing the exchange. Summary dismissal of the validity of another thought process does not set the stage for a productive exchange. Funny, because it was the second person here who had offered to provide backup from the OT for belief in this doctrine of Satan and hell. Neitherhhas followed through and I perceived the snip as the need to cut me off at the pass because justification does not exist. I felt I was doing both a favor.
But,, I'm afraid I do see you as giving quarter to one side of the debate without actively attempting to understand the other. It's simply how I perceive your comments, thus far.I don't claim it, you said it, and I recall it because it was so strange to me. You have since said the same thing more than twice, and don't receive the same. Its kind of a big thing to do to in a place like this, and very quick too, as he brought up excellent points from the OT to support the ideas of Jesus on something possibly unpleasant in eternity. Why would they follow through with more than the verses provided as proof, when you say you are ceasing interaction with them? So I see it very different, and just pointing out the "not ok for one, but ok for me to do over and over....." Making it up as you go along is worth one thing at one time, but not at others.
From what I am seeing, I don't blame you for thinking for what you do about how you think I am giving quarter to one side, even with my responses, but I totally disagree. I don't think with what I have said, that makes any sense. I think you might be going off of feelings more than the facts in some of these cases, and not asking what might explain those feelings. Often our feelings have good reasons behind them, in terms of explaining them, but I think we aren't always at ease with those reasons. So its easier to respond in other ways that are more soothing perhaps. I don't know, just contemplating what would explain this all to me, because I try hard to be fair and stick to the facts myself, and they aren't measuring up to me. We can disagree..... You will have to bear with me in that change. It was never this way before. I can be done, and ought to be. Most of my points have gone unaddressed, the ones that really matter in all of this. I can understand that, and see instead little quips of simple disagreement. One can't say that I haven't tried to be as fair as I know how to be.No one would accuse you of not attempting to be fair. I think we all attempt that. The problem usually lies in a difference of opinion as to what fair is.
Anyway, to reiterate. My opinion is simply that. I'm well grounded enough to understand that. Claiming the back up of a deity and insisting there is punishment involved for not agreeing with my opinion would not be representative of being well grounded. It would be a pointless and embarrassing display of ego.To this I would just reply, that is why in part, I wondered about other books or revelation. Wouldn't what you just said, describe the Jesus you seem to respect. Wouldn't it? To anyone that has read the gospels, Jesus spoke of negative consequences. I am not sure I understand the wanting to be so divorced from that if we are using the same texts as how we know about deities. How is that being well grounded if that is what is being done? If you say that isn't what is being done, then what explains the seeming excising of the tougher verses as needed or desired?
On the flip side, we see punishment and shame being dished out here and now for those not agreeing with some people's opinions. That is a for sure thing going on. Is that an embarrassing display of ego, since its smack dab in front of us? From the OP on, this isn't up for debate even, its so bold. And now i feel like I am asking the same questions over and over in different ways, in my extreme desire to share what I am seeing that seems so obvious. I am thinking its not going to happen, not with my efforts alone.Well, at the risk of being once again called blasphemous....I think it's important to remember Jesus didn't write anything. His ideas are filtered through other minds. If the image of the man becomes too fragmented by opposing ideas then one has to wonder why.
You can't simply say the Bible is the irrefutable word of God. If you do then you've got to begin to resolve the contradictions. Impossible task. So, then you start picking and choosing what supports your philosophy. Dangerous task.
I simply think the actions of Jesus must be used as a filter for understanding intent. If the actions are at odds with your understanding, your understanding may be off.
And the objective appears to be achieved ..., for a time
It's a marvel and a wonderment and, oh, so many startlements to see the fundy atheists so adamant about winning souls for Jesus! Praise God. All good things work
What's in a name? You shouldn't judge by a few letters strung together. Actions and words strung together are more indicative of who the person is.
Now that is something I can agree with, even though these last couple of months we seem to disagree on a lot.
This is why fairness matters so much.As I previously stated. It appears that the term 'fair' has become subjective. If it only applies to those who support a particular opinion, it doesn't fit the definition as I understand it.
I agree. Fair is only fair if it can be agreed upon. I'm sorry, but someone repeatedly saying that they are fair doesn't really mean much to me.
To me, the epitome of fair is when people on both sides of the discussion are willing to recognize and speak on it about a particular individual. If someone thinks that fair is only fair when they only support, applaud and seek confirmation from one side while continually lambasting and criticizing the other, that is not fairness. That's preaching to the choir and getting a pat on the back from the people whose position you already agree with. How is that the definition of fair to some people?And I wild totally agree to that also!
Don't take this the wrong way. But, you've attempted to call me out several times here. I don't remember you making a peep during the conversations that led me to this juncture. I'm not certain you are in a position to be fair and impartial.
Yes i have called you out several times for the reasons stated because of the sheer change I see in you. Others aren't getting the responses because it's par for the course for them and their character over the years that I've seen.
If you wondered at my silence at all in the last several weeks andontjs, it's because I want here. My activity would show this and when/ if I was here it was for a hub comment here and there. I am shocked at what I'm seeing as I look back.
If you care to bring up more particular examples so I can respond to more as I have these last couple of days I will gladly share how I agree or disagree with those too. I do make a big effort to be as absolutely fair as I can be. This is also what what led me to respect you so much in the past. You even did it when you got heat for it and were targeted. I recall it well.
Now your newfound supporters were the very ones you used to stand up to, for being unfair and partial only to their friends and own side. You used to SO much dislike the bullying tactics we see too often on here that if I recall, you had respect from all the different sides! That isn't even easy to do! Perhaps I'm recalling too positively again lol.
These are clues to me even if you don't care to see it as such. Not a whole lot exains such things and this is where I won't speculate about it. It's just sad to me. So these last several days that I've had time to even be in here, are me reeling an responding as I always have. With me, it's the same as usual. Perhaps this was always the real you and the othe person I thought I knew was the "unreal" one for lack of better.
Right now in here people are talking of horrific things and they are unwarranted and you stand by.... But hey you've got their support! It's an upside to some people, and it is what it is.I don't look to see where people have been. If you haven't been here, I'm surprised you are so quick to jump to conclusions.
I an not inclined to attempt to justify my opinions to anyone by hunting down exchanges, rehashing them, and attempting to gain your support. I don't need validation for my opinions.
I'm sorry if you don't understand the abhorrence I feel toward behavior patterns displayed by the fundamentalist mentality.
My 'newfound supporters' as you call them appear to agree on this issue. I wouldn't assume we would create some voting block in order to bully in the manner I perceive is being perpetuated by those supporting this fundamentalist attack. But, hey. Anything is possible, eh? You've apparently tried and convicted me of crimes undone, so I'm sure it is possible for you to see future action in a similarly jaded light.Well of course you wont check it out before or after, judging me for not being here to back you up when you suggest you were having a hard time with the treatment.... In this way you can maintain your belief about me that I am not an impartial observer, nor a fair judge, or/and all the other things you want to believe about me. It must all be true as your mind has it set out, because I think that is the most acceptable to you.
It was a response to show why I didn't do that, and it makes logical sense, and is factual. These things keep being a recurring theme in my rebuttals, but no mind is paid because these are things that can't matter to some people. Forgive me if I keep lapsing as if I was responding to the old Emile.
I hesitated for days before responding to this OP, because it was clear in the OP even that this isn't about reasoned, logical and fair argument. Even showing how the ideas fail and how unfair things are and hoping for some clarity, it isn't forthcoming. Another sign I should listen to my gut...... I will have to just accept things.No one owes you clarity. If you are confused it is up to you to unconfuse yourself. I have no idea how you came to the conclusion anyone was upset at you for not being there to back them up. My point in that comment was you have no idea what you are talking about (you admitted you weren't privy to the conversations), yet feel compelled to make judgments. I'm a little confused on how an intelligent individual, under those admitted circumstances, could attempt to pass off the comment that they were fair as anything more than a thinly veiled rubber stamp for behavior patterns they already agreed with.
What would those horrific things be? The intentional and malicious smears and sweeping generalizations of Christians with radical groups? We should create our own adage similar to Godwins Law (although the atheist actually thinks thats comparable to an actual formal logical fallacy, than just hyperbole).
A good name means a lot and is representative of a good reputation. Although some believers (mostly heretics) , might not think there is nothing in a name, but it does mean something.
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;Hey!
I went back and found this comment, which preceded the "grasping at straws" other heretic comments..... This "mostly heretics" is referring to me, you guys! Its a running gag that we have that goes back over 8 years. 8 years at least we have been friends and debating on many sites long before we got here. So the heretic believers he was talking about, was me, lol.
Phoenix, you make a fair point about a good name, and while you tease me like this, I appreciate what you say here, and know you were joking in using the term heretic and don't really want me burned at the stake nor do you dream about that of me or anyone when you are alone in the privacy of your own place, lol.
He teases me about my heretical beliefs.... a running gag. Sorry if this takes the fun out of what was being assumed.....Happy to clear it up, and the other comments remain. It makes sense in this context.
Some of the mentalities we see displayed here, will I think be the prevailing kind or type of mentality that will be in play toward the end of things. We live in an interesting time for sure. This will be fought and won, or not. If not, we know what happens next. This is what I meant in an earlier post about sticking close to the truth, to the fair judge that knows all and all angles and sides and all hearts and minds. Lord knows I am not perfect, and struggle too. I have never denied that. Its a time thing.... a matter of time. My prayer is that people wake up, that the scales fall off, some will want to know and seek, and not be bound by such things that hurt so many. To any that would ever want to possibly know the truth, whatever that is, (and I think it is God)
Even without God though, this all should not be happening among rational, decent and moral people that esteem good over bad. This is another clue, or meant to be, that something is amiss. No one is curious enough to have explain, the unexplainable? I think they are and are suppressing it for now, but hopefully not forever.
Our preferences and judgements of a possible god that would disagree with our preferences in his final assessment, are only just that. Why do we fight SO hard against the one that made all this, all of us, as if he had so much evil in store for us, rather than continued good like we have had in this life? We fight so hard against ideas that we KNOW help maintain good and free societies in this life, but if God were to do it, it is so immoral.I see the word hateful thrown around a lot from the Christians on these pages. While I despise a lot of Christian theology, I don't despise the Christians - even when they stand behind them. I can't think of a single Christian that I hate on hubpages. There are many that I don't care for, and many that I will no longer interact with, but that doesn't mean that I hate them. What is meant by hateful? Speaking against doctrine? Speaking against the action that doctrine often sparks? Speaking out against certain actions and words of believers? Is all of that hateful?
It seems that hate is being applied as inequitably as the term "fair" is. Believers don't see the things they say to unbelievers as hateful, even when it is pointed out. In fact, they often insist that it's being said out of love. I see this as a double standard of the highest order. It's one of the reason I have a hard time believing that the majority of them in this forum have an interest in fairness, rationality, respect or conversation. They simply want to assert that they are fair, rational and (of course) exactly right in their position - even against other believers who disagree with them, let alone the atheists. it's absurd.Fine. Here is but a sample of what I proposed doing, taken from this thread not long ago. Please show me how this was presented lovingly, or even neutrally. You think "hateful" is a stretch? Considering how it is used when supporting political correctness both by protesters of different issues and the media, "hateful" is much more clearly illustrated here. Show me what other purpose was served if not that:
It's pretty clear.This is funny. That quote here:
was taken from a quote by Phoenix previously. I was simply curious if being accused of the same thing he had accused me of would be considered offensive. Do you bother to read the comments on the thread in their entirety, or do you just hunt around for stuff to complain about. Because, this is a little hypocritical.Not at all. I only included that as it set the stage for what was to follow. You can go ahead and include his entire quote as preface and it does not negate my point one bit. Nice try though.
Seriously? Restating his comment is terrible for me, but not terrible for him to say it in the first place?
Do you read what you write?
I can see we have a kangaroo court in session.I think the point by Phoenix in that scenario was misunderstood by her. He was doing something creative in hopes of making a point, as I saw it, lol. He can speak for himself though, but I saw the misunderstanding earlier. The least of those comments you shared that prefaced the others. Yet the need to EMPHASIZE the non point...... as if its key and now turning on you, lol.
We see an extreme dishing out, that if commented on is turned around to a severe degree. It is almost as if those making the comments you shared, are acting then like the victims! Its fairly unbelievable, yet we see the dishing out again and again from the OP on, and claiming to be nearly victims as we see. Acting like others are just stupid or not understanding, or not willing to understand all the sides, etc. What isn't to understand about these comments!? Again, the way I see my held views supported in such things is something I cannot begin to make up. Its not pleasant, but it is explained.Stop to think for a moment. You are saying Phoenix was being creative. But, I was being unkind. Same words. But, somehow I am at fault.
You guys really need to get a grip. I can't follow this hypocrisy without doubling over in laughter.I don't have an issue with your repeating the comment from Phoenix, why would I. I have an issue for all the other horrifying comments you and McFarland laid out, that you are avoiding responding to, like the plague. As Bberean said, nice try. It doesn't fly. You are super transparent. Stop making people pay for discussing with you. He was keying in on your response to the brand new person, and making a point. I don't have a problem with it, and you missed the whole point, or maybe you didn't. Repeat away. It doesn't take away from the comments about what you said about Phoenix and others in general. Not from the point of the OP till today.
You don't get to turn things around and actually change truths of matters. Even if you fool yourself, truth stands on its own.Do I honestly need to go back through the thread like bberean and find the offensive comments directed at me?
No. I won't. You guys are welcome to represent this in any hypocritical manner you choose. I'll address what I feel is fair.I lied. I took the time to find one. See below.
CGENAEA WROTE:
So now you want to pretend as if... lol
I guess you're good at "coy" too. wink
You are the most avid slanderer and judge of God himself, that I have encountered on these pages. I take umbrage with that.
Simply for having a difference of opinion I am met with that. Please, gyrate around that and tell me that was a good Christian comment. I have never slandered God or judged God. Nor have I slandered Genaea. That was a lie that was known to be a lie when it was posted.You take issue with Jesus' word about hell, and judge he and God for that, yet blame believers it seems to appear to me. I myself have said that I find you to judge God as he is portrayed in the Bible. People do this all the time, your friends do it a lot. I don't know all CGenaea has seen of you to say you are to the degree she says here, you would have to ask her. Coy, sure. Judge of God, yes..... I have already spoken to you in fine details just this weekend on that topic.
Ask Genaea what she meant, and be happy she didn't say about you what you said about others today!
What about your other quotes Bberean shared. Those are just some. What about the OP you never made the case for and pretend others just don't understand how innocent it is of you? Do not think someone sharing with you this post makes you escape what you and J said...... Its not remotely the same, and not hypocritical either like you so need me to be.
I am done speaking with you,so if you have anything else to accuse me of and others of, do it quickly. I knew if I didn't respond, you would accuse all the more of having something to run from or hide. I am just running from the immoral tack being taken here and the seeming insanity. I have already stopped reading and responding to others as you well know from our past exchanges when I thought I knew you. I am done, because this tempts people to stoop to the same treatment of others out of desperation of being accused in such manners. I won't be a part of it.This is ridiculous. I disagree with your interpretation so I judge God? Geez. Are you God? It appears you believe yourself to be. I'm afraid if that is the case in your eyes I'll be an atheist. You are just another guy.
I can see you will say whatever you want, whenever you want and that is just fine and dandy. Anyone else has to have your approval to have an opinion.
Edit. Sorry I wasted the time to find one of the comments. I'm glad I didn't take more time to find them all. Apparently, there is a very serious disconnect from reality with you guys.And you have said this about others too, not just me. Its a pattern I see, not having to rebut actual points. I am female by the way. Correction of your last incorrect statement about me, that simply is false about needing my approval. We are all here to say what we want to say, while we are still allowed to say it. Adding on more accusations is just that....
As for people claiming others views are wrong and not being able to admit we ALL (including you) have views (aka interpretations), where the VERY same could be said of you yet isn't, seems another missed point. Are you God, are any of us? Do we or you sometimes in our judgements act like others are doing that, missing that WE would also be doing that? (aka, you?) This is my recurring theme, while being alluded to OR outright called a hypocrite at times. While missing the glaringly obvious... I don't make you do this, you are choosing and digging in your heels.
Saying whatever I want, whenever I want would look more like the OP and so many other posts in this entire thread.... I am sure you don't know what I mean, or want to know..... This seems to be no mirrors allowed zone.Response to that last edit:
Its a belief, there are many or "them all." Anyone watching or being involved, knows why you won't retrieve them "all." or even a couple more. Come on. This is what happens when our errant but faithfully held beliefs are held above the reality of any situation. In my short time here in this thread I regret becoming a part of, I haven't seen her give back one tenth of what she receives and that is me being very generous. She is like a whipping boy for crying out loud and everyone sees it and knows it. No doubt whatsoever.You have played an active role in showcasing the problems addressed in the OP.
It was about the slander of me and God (though we are servant and master, respectively) you make up my intent in your head on a consistant basis... words of SCRIPTURE his you to the point that you wrongfully attribute and assume that YOU have been called a name...
It was also about the SHEER judgement of God himself! As if you can point your finger at HIM???? for being: unjust, whiny, tyrannical, immature, a lover of genocide/rape/lies, immoral, a horrible communicator, and/or UNREAL...think about that last one for a second.Again, you are not God. If you could accept this (everyone else knows it) you'd understand how false your allegations are.
Neither are you though. I have pointed out several times where you make judgements on others that are more in a "god" category. Where here exactly are you saying she is acting like God there? I even read it again in case I missed it? Also, do you really not see how often you take that same role, but in even a more actual way? I am looking out for it now because it is something you seem to so detest in others, but why not see it in yourself?
This is how I know you are not right in so many of your judgements of everyone, because of the non stop contradictions and inconsistencies while judging particular others so harshly. Yet you don't see how you play god yourself in your judgements? This is just one of the ongoing inconsistencies I see while casting more judgements. She made some great points there actually pointing out even more that you don't address at all. This is also repetitive behavior from you when I have done the same.
Honestly, I have never seen so much judgment without back up from you, and not seeing in yourself what you detest in others.There you go again. Spotlight got new batteries???
I am not sorry that my words come across a little Godly sounding...they are his words. Everyone with the mind of Christ knows it... lol...Genaea. You don't sound Godly at all. That's the problem. You just think you do.
I thought you were the one who thought I sounded that way... make up your mind! Or don't...
Well, I'll quote scripture back to you for what I think of your take on this thing. I think it fits your 'interpretation' to a tee.
Matthew 24:10
At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
Matthew 24:11
and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. (although I don't think you are doing any more than hoping to deceive)It's funny how we are talking about your interpretation and you think I am implying Jesus was a schizophrenic. Well, not funny. Just very telling.
Anyway, someone pushing multiple gods and claiming others have no idea what they are talking about is humorous. Keeps me laughing.
Its about held belief about people, with strong faith even.
Certain ones must be wrong, even when they aren't, and those making the comments must be innocent and victims, and for the discussing of it, you get drawn in too as one to accuse...
Its the same ole, just with a new addition to the team as I see it. My long absences from these forums I think helps me to see this change more clear and obvious, cut and dry almost. The rest of you probably saw the process as more subtle.
I'm sorry, does the term "heretic" from a Christian bring back loving, positive sentiments to you? When I think of the word "heretic" , the only thing that comes to mind is the inquisition and burning at the stake. What connotations does it bring up to you?
I'm sorry, but he later said Heretic was a running gag. I fail to see the humor. Maybe YOU can enlighten me. Did being convicted of heresy ever bring love to people? I'm pretty sure it brought torture and horrific death.
If you think that pointing out the irony in such a historically loaded and dangerous term from a fundamentalist is hateful, when really the actions of those that threw that word around previously IS hateful, then have at it.
If the OP wanted to expose dishonesty it has certainly been on display in this thread, unfortunately not from the camp it alleges.
Difference of opinion. Well, maybe not. Like I said. One side seems to display a seriously weak grasp on reality. That might be part of the reason we can't see eye to eye.
Agreed. So all we have to go on is how people conduct themselves ongoing, see how fair they are with everyone, even those they disagree with, and their character. It comes through. When two sides are opposing each other and each says the opposite, we go by other things to make determinations.
A side with more numbers and more tactics they are willing to stoop down to, gives off an impression that its a losing battle to even try here. Its just an appearance though. The anger and vitriol and maltreatment we see ongoing is explained when we see people are defending against these actions but don't have actual truth and morality to back them up. They are frustrated perhaps they can't actually have their cake and eat it too. I wish people would wake up and make better choices and avoid all that extra drama, but it can't be forced.This is so sad. I feel as if you are describing the side you are attempting to defend.
I see that my original assumption that these unhealthy views were held by only a few was wrong. I am saddened to know this. But, so be it. Reality is what it is. Thanks for opening my eyes.Of course this is what I would expect you would say. I am not surprised, and I don't mind it one bit because its become par for the course for several days at least. People are smart. Its at the point that if you say I hold unhealthy views, after everything else you have said, that I can walk away with the idea that I very likely hold healthy views. This is true of a good handful of others here as well. What is hard for me is the change as I have indicated so often now. Is there anything else? I will hang in there and hope for the best for opening of eyes.
This whole thread, starting with its title has to be a bummer for HP, to be honest. It keeps coming up in the feed, and is so negative against a whole group of people. Of course some support and love it, but most would surely admit its a turn off and not conducive to anything good and worthwhile on a site we all invest some time and effort into.
Its just another form of the bullying and thugging of a group that believes differently. I could NOT have tried any harder to ask questions and probe into the topic to see what could be being talked about? I assumed the best, so I asked, "Are we talking about the fringe that calls themselves church leaders and that abuse kids? Surely that kind of thing must be meant, right?" Oh no...its much less like people saying, "you lack discernment, or get behind me..." Or people that believe Jesus believed in the hell he spoke of more than heaven. If I am mistaken and its about "christians" picketing funerals, correct me now, but I asked this long ago. Its a big drama meant to just gang up for more people not standing up to those horrifying Christians that call others (wait for it... big gulp) things like "coy, judge of god."
I for one, am ready to stop bumping it as it gives off the impression its a good discussion going. Its not, its one of the worst I think. Sadly, by a person that USED to be so fair and would stand up against the likes of those behaving like herself.The best way to make it stop coming up on the feed is stop posting. It's over. You guys have made it clear that this behavior is acceptable and preferred. That was all I was asking and the question has been answered.
Move on.This behavior is not preferred, but unfortunately it is accepted by more "churches" than I care to admit. Jesus commanded his followers to "Love your neighbor" and "Judge not lest ye be judged" and all of the other Scriptures I've cited (and so far as I've noticed, I'm really the only one who HAS used Scripture to back up my statements) which tell us exactly what Christ expects from us, but most fundamentalist Christians tend to ignore those passages. And it saddens my heart, as I'm sure it does the Lord's as well.
Let not your heart be troubled. It pleases the Lord when we use his "spirit" to interpret and report "good news". (You still haven't told me whar you believe of the Holy Spirit of the living God, btw)
He hates a lying tongue, however.What do you mean what do I believe about the Holy Spirit and the living God? I believe in a triune God. One God with three facets; the God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. One deity, three functions. God the Father is He who dwells in Heaven and hears us when we pray. God the Son was Jesus Christ, God born of a virgin on Earth to save us from sin. God the Holy Spirit is He who dwells inside of us and guides us through our every day activities. One God, but differently identified depending on which function He is serving at the moment
Uh...
God the father, son AND holy spirit.
Three that agree like one...Three that AGREE like one? So you're a pagan? You worship three separate and distinct gods and not one God with 3 parts???
If that is what you've gotten from this thread it shows you've paid no attention and are simply restating the same false premise born of your bias that you express in the OP.
Oddly, two Christians did take the time to post and understood the OP. Somewhat sympathized with the points and expressed dismay that there would be those who would cause the OP to have to be made in the first place.
I feel, somewhat, lighter hearted. Knowing you guys aren't completely indicative of Christendom.You should be happy to know distorted versions of "Christianity" such as you and Will promote will flourish as the genuine gospel is shouted down. Will will be happy to see Catholicism reducing it's standards in favor of ecumenism and it's membership will swell. We live in interesting times.
Ho hum. Is this another 'I've got the spirit, you don't, so nany nany boo boo' posts?
If so, we've covered this ground. Not buying it. Sorry.I'm not the one promoting a twisted form of Christianity. The Christianity I promote is the one of love, understanding and forgiveness that comes straight from the Bible. I've shown you the words of Christ and Paul. You are the one choosing to ignore them and I will leave it to God to show you the truth when the time is right.
I'm quite familiar with Catholicism and have addressed it in many threads. I know all about your god, your idea of Jesus, Mary and your gospel. I was surprised I hadn't spotted it right away in your early posts, but you were a bit elusive regarding it and understandably so.
Your hatred of Catholicism is well documented. Way to show the love there.
No hatred of Catholics but I do indeed hate false doctrines and religions, from Catholicism to Scientism and everything in between that would mislead those seeking truth. Just contending for the faith.
And doing a poor job, if I do say so myself.
Just kidding. bBerean. Everyone has to believe what they think to be right.Actually, it was my search for the Truth, a lengthy and very open-minded and sincere one, that led me to Catholicism
So showing up on the thread of one of the most kind hearted genuine people I know who happened to be a Catholic and recommending that people read a book that compares Catholicism to the whore of Babylon is not hatred of Catholicism? Interesting. It's just you pointing out what in your opinion is "false doctrine"
Did I deny a hatred of false doctrines including Catholicism or did I proclaim it? You and Emile will, I suppose, try to spin that into a hatred of Catholics but were that true I would be happy to see them in that institution.
I'll put Catholic doctrine up against yours any day. Catholicism is the most Biblically sound doctrine around, and Catholics don't even claim to go by Scripture alone. Because the Bible doesn't teach us to. In fact, the Bible teaches that oral tradition and written tradition are equal. But then you have Protestants, who do claim to practice Scripture alone, and they come up with things like Once Saved, Always Saved and that drinking even a little alcohol is wrong and that dancing is sinful, none of which is anywhere near the Scriptures.
I am a Protestant that doesn't believe in those things actually. Many I know don't believe in most of those things. Just to clarify some.
But it's only your belief that their doctrines are false. An opinion. Comparing your behavior and your actions next to that of the Catholics I know, I'd chose them 100% of the time, were I ever inclined to go back to church. Your methods do nothing but push people away from you and the doctrines you preach. Isn't that the opposite of what you're supposed to be doing? Do you save a lot of souls on hp that are drawn to your actions?
Oh, there is also that little point of it being a thread established specifically to answer any questions about Catholicism. Turns out not for the tough ones though. I guess it was meant to be an unchallenged promotion of that belief system.
Kind of like you guys are attempting to turn this thread into for your belief system?
She answered several tough questions, and there was no question specifically in that one post in which you promoted the whore of Babylon book. You may have asked questions in other posts, but not that one. Was that not an attempt by you to turn an open and genuine desire to answer questions into a promotion for your disdain for her beliefs?
So unless you already agree with the OP's position, don't ask the questions they solicit? Good luck with that.
This has been my experience too. I gave it a good shot too.
Try to keep up oceans. He's bashing Motown in that post. You are referencing me. Correct? I'm sure there are plenty of pertinent posts to blunder off of for complaints against me. Stay focused.
I was responding to his simple point there about the OP, no need to make it about more. I did go back to see what you are referring to. I don't read JMcFarland's posts, and haven't for a while. That is true of only a couple people. You couldn't have known that, so I can see where you could be confused.
So, your commenting inappropriately equates to my confusion. These crazy rules have my head spinning.
Not at all, my comment on his comment about the OP, actually did equate. I had the same experience that you don't like the questions that come from what your OP solicits, etc. If that is confusing to you I am sorry. You showed me that you were referring to another post, that he was responding to, that I haven't read. Then told me to keep up oceans, keep up. So I clarified.
OK. So, you don't read the exchange, respond without understanding what you are responding to and that should make perfect sense, because I should know you don't read some people's posts.
Truly oceans. Your logic is dizzying.No, your accusational distortions are dizzying. You can't blame that on me.
I said very clearly that Bbereans simple comment about your OP, was also my exact experience. This is not difficult. You tried to make it about more, and the "more" is something I had not read, nor was responding to. Your beliefs about others even when shown to be wrong, held with great faith, are dizzying to me, personally.Bberean wasn't commenting on my OP. He was talking about another thread. Do you think if you reiterate the same false statement often enough that it will magically be correct? Are you currently clicking the heels on your red slippers?
Wow. I don't read her posts, period. I read his though. Here is what I was responding to, for your further clarification, though I hate almost to keep removing your firmly held beliefs about me with which you seem to be having so much fun!
" bBerean wrote:
So unless you already agree with the OP's position, don't ask the questions they solicit? Good luck with that."
To which I said, "This has been my experience too. I gave it a good shot too."
So...
Its possible I am in error that in this thread, he is talking about another OP than this one that has been such a hot topic of debate. I took that chance, and don't apologizing for not reading the prior post. If he WERE to be talking about this OP, what he said happened to fit it to a "T." You took umbrage with it being my experience also. So I cleared that up for you, that I was not reading JM's posts. Even with that knowledge, you share a post like this, and really expect people to keep on seeing you are morally superior. EVEN WITH my possible error on which OP, your comments are unfair, mean and unwarranted. I never even needed to say a word, or point any thing out, you are doing it all for yourself. Unfair judging types that need to also find fault with certain ones as you do, don't really impress me either, and of course you will side with them and they with you. This will never make something moral, or right or even decent.
His point about a possible other OP, fits THIS one to a "T", so I stand behind my comment to him, as that HAS been my experience, and I DID give it my best shot. Why do I bother like you will wake up and begin to care?
Its true, you have not appreciated the questions THIS OP has solicited. Have you been lucky with that? Its not looking so good.
Yes, and in so doing giving them a chance to show why their doctrine is not false. Why open a thread promoting something you aren't prepared to defend?
So she was supposed to purchase a book calling her faith the whore of Babylon and then refute it point by point when your mind was already made up and you weren't genuinely going to listen to her answers anyway?
Not sure where you got that from. I did recommend an excellent book. I didn't tell her to buy it or answer to it.
Oh, I dunno... I suppose I got it from this, merely one page over:
"Yes, and in so doing giving them a chance to show why their doctrine is not false. Why open a thread promoting something you aren't prepared to defend?"
The thread was not for her to defend or argue her beliefs against you, it was to answer questions. It appears that you're pissed that someone can open a thread, set boundaries NOT on what YOU can say, but in how THEY will respond and not play the game you want to play, so you respond by pushing a book comparing their cherished beliefs to the whore of Babylon. Sounds like your problem, not anyone else.
I'd venture to say you know nothing of Catholicism. My Gospel is the same as yours. My Jesus is the same as yours. The difference is, I know Him and you don't seem to. I was never dodgy about my Catholicism. When asked, I answered. I'm not ashamed of being Catholic. You also, like most Protestants, know nothing of how we see Mary, the woman who was blessed to be the mother of GOD. She was chosen to carry God inside of her. What have you been called to do? Other than lead people away from the church by your example of intolerance?
False assumption on your part. I have nothing to do with Protestantism, and having spent a great many years studying comparative religions with Catholicism as one of my focusses I am quite familiar. More so than most Catholics I've met as it seems by and large they have a laity quite comfortable in being ignorant regarding the doctrines of the church and for the most part the clergy seems to prefer it that way.
If you're not Catholic, you're a Protestant. That's what Protestantism is. It is the PROTEST of Catholicism.
Not at all surprised you believe that. Christians have been around since Christ established His church. Long before Catholicism and much longer than Protestantism.
I said I was a protestant, but its in that default mode of just not being a Catholic. I have no denomination actually.
I actually agree with you about the earlier Christianity. The bare basics.I don't know man. You seem to be protesting Catholicism. It seems to fit the definition to a tee.
oh my word. So then where was the "christian" church as you refer to it before the Protestant reformation? Who is part of this church now? Can you show your lineage back to the Apostles? Because the Catholic church CAN trace its lineage back to the Apostles
BS. Peter was not a Pope. Christians have been persecuted and hid during the early church in order to survive. Teachings passed down orally, bits of scriptures and the indwelling of the Holy Ghost was and is all that was required. There are assemblies of believers in small groups all over the world who have never had anything to do with Protestantism or Catholicism, but I am not about to put you on their track.
If you really want to pursue this I will post links to where I have laid this all out before, but you aren't going to like what you find.Probably since nobody likes bs solely intended to imply someone is cosmicallly superior.
You have read all his links and find them BS and implying he is cosmically superior? No extreme benefit of the doubt here either I guess, to one side, against the extreme on the other? Since you asked for examples, I will just point it out as I see them from here on out. So sure are you..... that you talk so bold about other's BS.
BTW, how to catholics not get lumped into any cosmically superior way of being? You could say that about ANYONE, btw, that thinks there cosmic view is right, but you reserve it for one particular group that you think is wrong. You have a view that you think is right about the cosmos, and I don't see anyone saying this same thing about you. How nice of them, right?
Jesus never tolerated the idea that there is no God... didn't "hug" a one...
Them...I don't even think he discussed. He was with believers who had all the wrong ideas.
But to allow what he does not, is sin.
To answer the assertion that there is no God (our FIRST priority) with, "Kindness" is not Jesus. At all...
Not long ago, you asserted that people outside of the faith are to be judged by God alone. But it seems that the bible itself, asks a DIFFERENT question, not at all surprisingly...
Who are you that judge another man's SERVANT...???
A SERVANT does the speaking for his master, relaying the message precisely. Adding and subtracting carries stiff penalty.
Then why the difference from the mind and mouth of Jesus??? Hell, spirit, it's all in there. How much of Jesus has been "tainted" while editing scriptures to feel "peachy" for others?
He is love...
That's why we TRUST him to know what it is...
"This way..."
How many roads did you say lead to Jesus again???An rqually challenging would be how many do you ignore so you can feel peachy.
Haha I Swyped peachy and it came up preachy. Equally accurate.Preachy is accepted, if you just gotta call me names...
But I omit none of it to feel peachy or preachy. Love will forgive foolishness. Loyalty cannot.
There is not enough evidence for God, is a silly statement. Agreed???
Will I be loving or loyal... you decide.
"11When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love."
1 Corinthians 13:11-13
Paul places love greater than even faith here. To love your neighbor as yourself is the greatest of all commandments.Jesus replied: “'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment.
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."
John 14:15
If you do not love your neighbor as yourself, then you don't love God either.This is so very sad. You purposely ignore the other part of his words. He says the second is like it. Which means it is of equal importance. On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.
No, Superman was just confused, and Phoenix was correcting the error. He thought it was the greatest commandment but it isn't. Assuming the worst again.......
They are of equal importance. By Jesus's words. I wasn't assuming the worst. Phoenix was leaving out part of the quote.
He was in simple error. His explanation makes more sense than that he was purposely maybe trying to leave out the 2nd of two greatest commandments.
Not only that, its a favorite of many lately, and often many leave off the first one and call the second one the greatest. Its just something some of us have observed. If you want to assume he is wanting to purposely leave off the second part, when it was already stated and not correct the simple yet obvious error, then that is fine, but it makes a lot less sense in general. From the things we have seen from you, your take does make sense to me, in that light.Also another valuable lesson is that like most of the things Jesus said and taught, they were quotes from the Old Testament - Deuteronomy 6 5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Correct. If they were equal or both the greatest, He would not have said the First is the Greatest and then told us the second.
Way to interpret your way out of a sticky dilemma. Unfortunately, the different translations appear to back up the belief that Jesus was saying both were necessary and of equal importance.
Its answered by a simple reading of the text, the actual verses say it as such. Too much drama Emile. Here, you justify my first comment to you that you denied. I was right after all. I observe a deep seated need in you to find fault with those you simply disagree with that go to these strange lengths to create problems where they don't exist. I was right after all but was going to accept you weren't assuming the worst. This confirms you were. Simply amazing, Emile.
Where is the drama? A second is equally important: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
What do you think equally important means? I'd be curious to find out.I answered that already, when you did. You may or may not be purposely trying to miss the point of Phoenix's post then. Please go back and see he simply corrected the error, and wasn't trying to leave out the loving your neighbor part as some diabolical scheme. It was already stated, and presented by Superman as the prime command when it wasn't. He already stated the second verse, and Phoenix went back and added the actual first and greatest one. You need to see it as he was doing something wrong, and that supports all my other points is all I am saying.
Ah. So, superman was making a point, but he was wrong. Phoenix was making a point and he was right.
Gotcha....not really.
Superman's point is a valid one. Many rush to the love God command. But, they don't understand the love your neighbor one is of equal importance. His point was valid. I see it all of the time. Many claim to love God and that is easy. He isn't here to chastise anyone if they step out of line. Loving your neighbor is the hardest commandment to follow, so the most ignored.Because anyone can claim to love God and no one can prove them wrong. In order to love your neighbor, you actually have to love your neighbor. Can't be a hypocrite when it comes to something someone can actually see you not doing
Exactly. Man, I am more and more impressed with Catholics every day. There was one who just left who was really a fine example of someone who understood Christ. And now, here you are.
I wasn't raised Catholic. I chose to become one because of the example they lived by. I've been to Baptist churches and non-denominational churches and all kinds of churches. Baptists are by far the worst at leading by example. Catholics are generally very loving and accepting and, at least in my experience, don't judge you or talk behind your back. And when you go to confession, the priest isn't judgmental. He's there to genuinely help you transcend your sin and break free from it. I love Catholicism
Gotta know what God means when he says love... it's not the marshmallowy kind. It's the correcting kind. He came to correct. He does not want ANY to perish. He loved us enough to show us the path. He didn't do that for nothing.
There is only one path to him. He wants us to find IT... or die trying.This is what every judgmental Christian tries to say to justify their judging of their fellow man, completely ignoring the Scriptures that command us not to judge. More picking and choosing the bits of the Bible that suit your prejudices instead of changing your prejudices to conform to the Bible
What judgment have you seen from Christians here??? You see the mirror of biblical scripture, that's it... I haven't judged a soul. Not even you who does not believe half of what Jesus said from his lips as biblically written.
The mirror of Biblical scripture, from people who have never once used Scripture to back up their judgments on others? I am the only one who has used any type of Scripture to back up my claims that you are commanded to love your neighbor and forbidden to judge your neighbor, unless it is self-proclaimed believer who isn't living up to the teachings of the Bible. No one else has used Scripture for anything. Because there is no Scripture to refute the Scriptures I have cited. It is your side that has no Biblical ground to stand on, not mine.
Sounds to me like you are trying to defend yourself and your church, William. If either was genuine, I doubt that defense would be necessary.
Just suggesting, that's all.An astute observation, Mr. Jonnycomelately. Proof is the pudding and butterscotch can never replace vanilla - as far as a good defense. Jesus could sure use a guy like you. Have you in the past or ever considered to give Him a chance?
In order to give the teachings of that Man of History a "chance," I have no need to take on the religious nonsense and rhetoric of christianity, thank you.
The Christ, the Buddha, The Divine Consciousness, OM, One, each will be the focus for different persons, yet they are all the same Centre. My focus is my business and my responsibility.
Religiosity, in all of its manifestations, is a human concoction that seeks to afford control over other humans. It serves to separate, to bully, to deny communion between peoples. It has nothing to do with the pursuit of unity.
You're right, I shouldn't have to defend the Bible, especially to self - proclaimed believers, but apparently I do. They refuse to accept the truth that we are commanded to love our neighbor, they constantly leave that part out of any attempt to quote Scripture and they are constantly trying to turn it around on me being Catholic, which is completely irrelevant when they are ignoring the Bible and apparently now they're trying to claim that I am someone else masquerading, because how dare their be 2 Catholics! I've tried to be loving, understanding, polite and everything Jesus wants me to be and they show time and time again their true viperous natures. The OP was a cry for help, almost begging to be shown members of the Christian community that present themselves in the example and image of Jesus Christ and all anyone here has done is show him more of the same. Shame on all of you. You are driving someone AWAY from God and you don't care. You are all selfish beings who only want to mock and feel superior. I am done defending the Word of God to you. I leave you to His righteous judgment
My apologies, I assumed you were familiar with the verse. The way that Superman posted it was factually in error was all, that it was the first and greatest commandment. He was close though, but considering we are talking about 1st and second place and its an answer to a question about a big topic, it matters. It wasn't even a big deal, and one now has to wonder at your problem with the simple correction. Here it is in a copy paste since you don't know what I am referring to even after all that explanation. From Matthew 22: 36-37,
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
If you read that against Mr. Avitt's original response, you will see what was meant.William Avitt said: To love your neighbor as yourself is the greatest of all commandments.
Jesus said: “'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment.Yes, ignore the rest of Jesus's train of thought. That is always helpful.
William Avitt: To love your neighbor as yourself is the greatest of all commandments.
Jesus replied: “'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment.
Current List of various twists, distortions and excuses regarding this obvious misrepresentation of The Word of God, so far (with possible new updates)
1.William Avitt: If you do not love your neighbor as yourself, then you don't love God either.
2. Emile R. You purposely ignore the other part of his words. He says the second is like it. Which means it is of equal importance, They are of equal importance. both were necessary and of equal importance
4. William Avitt : Because anyone can claim to love God and no one can prove them wrong. In order to love your neighbor, you actually have to love your neighbor.
5: Emile R. Superman was quoting from 1 Corinthians. Sharing Paul's statement. Not Jesus's. . My understanding is he was quoting Paul.
6. Emile R. Love is the highest of all commandments. Both are on equal footing because if you ignore one you don't fulfill the requirements of the law
7. Emile R Yes, ignore the rest of Jesus's train of thought. That is always helpful.
8. Emile R Anyone who attempts to push forward the philosophy Jesus said was the most important is attempting to do his will.
Superman was quoting from 1 Corinthians. Sharing Paul's statement. Not Jesus's.
Are you referring to I Corinthians 13:13, "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."
Mr Avitt spoke of the greatest commandment, and Paul isn't there, but the verses I shared before show Jesus specifically talking in the same wording Mr. Avitt was. I did go and look to see if it could be construed to be contradicting Jesus in I Corinthians 13. It isn't, its not talking about neighbors specifically either and Mr. Avitt was, though its inferred. In the Matthew passage, Jesus did specifically mention neighbor like Mr. Avitt did as well. Just fyi......Then you know you point about him talking about Paul in the Corinthian passage is wrong then. Ok. Or I am open to seeing the verse you mean that shows Paul is talking about the greatest commandment.
I was simply pointing out that superman had a valid point. I've cut and pasted his post here, for your convenience. See it how you will. My understanding is he was quoting Paul. You guys do that to. Right? Quote around the book?
"11When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love."
1 Corinthians 13:11-13
Paul places love greater than even faith here. To love your neighbor as yourself is the greatest of all commandments.To love your neighbor as yourself is not the greatest of all commandments according to Jesus. Its the second. Paul referring to love being the greatest of faith hope and love is good stuff too.
Many people leave the God part out very often, though not assuming that was intentional here. Its a misquote and a biggie considering the topic. They are the two greatest commandments according to Jesus. Paul would have backed him up on that I think. Yes, we quote around the book but pushing to find fault with Phoenix for a simple clarification was just not necessary I thought.The point was Love is the highest of all commandments. Both are on equal footing because if you ignore one you don't fulfill the requirements of the law. Insisting that someone misspoke when they attempted to point that out shows that you didn't understand the point made.
Phoenix wasn't wrong for the simple correction about the actual greatest commandment and didn't deserve the comments that followed that went after his character.
Well, sure. Of course. What was I thinking by commenting that it was sad someone didn't understand a simple point. Definitely character bashing. Definitely. I'm so glad you are here to put a negative spin on my every move. Where would I be without your constant harping?
My "harping" is that you are doing that very thing to those you disagree with here. Lets not turn this around. Its also pointing out how you give extreme benefit of the doubt to some when not warranted while extreme viewing of the negative of others. Its not ever the negative about those you agree with, or vice versa. If it were, and you were more fair, it wouldn't be such a big deal.
Alright. Let's address this accusation. Who have I given extreme benefit of the doubt to?
I have been firm in voicing my disdain for this arrogant philosophy displayed here. I have been firm in the fact that I am aware that mine is an opinion. I don't see that from the Bible thumpers I'm dealing with.The "new" person, who you disagree with on many levels based on all your other statements over time. Hell is one thing. Incorrect verses that have shown to be wrong to the degree you defend with another passage while putting people down. Believing in hell is ok for this new person but people that believe Jesus said it plain as day have "hell" to pay for that.... (A joke, to be clear.)
Its just a taking of sides game, I have seen it a lot. Your horrible putting down of one side as quoted earlier (very worthy of reporting), but defending someone in clear wrong that back pedaled because you were on their side. I can't believe you are even asking about this, its been throughout. He was in simple error, and you defended with an improper other passage. Benefit of the doubt when clearly just an accidental mistake, but that was blown out of proportion to demean the other side. That is just the most recent.
It was a simple mistake anyone could make. The strange going after Phoenix and insisting like you did about him purposely missing the point when you were missing the point of the actual greatest commandment. It was simple and factual error you defended because of WHO it was. A person you don't even know but you have uncharacteristically complimented above and beyond, more than I have ever seen from you. See?
To add and clarify, what you say there that I say is character bashing, is not what I am saying is character bashing.
Love isn't as difficult a concept as you are attempting to make it into.
Yes it is, because don't you see? If you really love someone you will be mean to them and treat them like an outcast because they don't believe like we do! If they're not one of us, then the only way we CAN show them love is by casting them aside and treating them as though they are beneath us. Not by, you know, being kind to them. That's just silliness
Or here's a thought! We can do like Jesus!
"What must I do to be saved?"
"Sell all you have, follow me."
NOT!!! "Nutn Honey, come sit on my lap so I can give you a great big sloppy kiss!!!"Not a big fan of turning the other cheek or washing the feet of those people then? Shocker!
Ah - hard to tell. Still waiting for you to give me a good reason why I should not reject this ideology based on the actions of it's adherents.
Why the multiple personalities - as a matter of interest?
Sounds a bit like Harry Potter trying to get under Voldemort's skin!
It gives an appearance of numbers which has come in handy for a couple already. That and it's effective? A couple of explanations from where I stand. I don't speak for them though... Just my two cents
Gon elevate my self ta God fits the last thing I ever do...
Not gonna ever happen.
We gotta listen. To God... not man or woman...in this case.Well, if we can make sure no one listens to you that's gonna be a coup. People who think they, alone, speak for God can be dangerous.
and the second greatest is like it, "Love your neighbor as yourself." The law and the prophets are summed up in those two commandments. You are right about the first and greatest.
For someone that accuses others of playing or even being God and not liking that idea, you do a version of it here again yourself actually. Judging who are the true christians or not, or the face of christendom seems more like the job of God. Also, that this Christian sides with you against the Christians you don't approve of (Genaea in particular, then apologizing several times, then doing it again), might be some reason you approve even when they believe in hell like the other fringe? Yet Superman is not fringe in your eyes and a good face of Christendom? Inconsistent and very strange, and its the very strange things that deserve a second look, and cause faulty views to unravel. This is how we uncover real truth when its a he said she said disagreement. When two opposing sides just keep saying the opposite things, the clues give insight into the truth. Those on the side of truth like this kind of thing like you used to, those that are not on the side of it won't like it so much as we have seen for years in these forums.
Then the support saying this not loving Christian ways, and I actually think its very loving considering all we are talking about and how high the stakes are.
- Emile Rposted 10 years ago0
@superman
I hope more find a way to your understanding. I appreciate you taking the time to share it. - Emile Rposted 10 years ago0
@oceans. People can disagree on what Jesus said and meant. I do think those who appear to embody the spirit have a better understanding of who Christ was. If that's negative judgment. OK.
As to hell. I've said it before. We can all believe what we want as to what an afterlife would entail. That does not give us cause to attempt to turn this life we share into a living hell. - Emile Rposted 10 years ago0
That's good. My husband was raised Catholic. He said he'd go to confession and then get punished when he got home. Apparently the priest was a snitch.
I get what you are saying about Baptists. My parents went to a Baptist church. I never understood why. The people there were very mean. They really caused a lot of heart ache for my mother. But, she just kept plugging on.
Sounds like you've found a good place to be. That's important. - Emile Rposted 10 years ago0
@oceans Please stop rambling on about me. This constant complaining is not helping your cause.
Your OP and since has done the same to Christians everywhere. I can see why you would want me to stop pointing out the inconsistencies and lack of reason, morality and contradictions you keep on posting. Its why you won't respond to the actual posts either because its like bumping the proof of my points. I get it. We can make a deal, that if you stop doing those things, I will stop pointing them out? You used to like a good debate, and seeing who was correct, especially when people are putting others down. Has that changed too?
If you stop, then I will, deal? If you carry on, then I make no promises. I think that is more than fair, and you have been allowed to say horrible things for far too long, while nitpicking on "nothing's" from others, as it turns out. I don't think that is fair.I don't know whether you've noticed or not. I hate to point it out, since I've already done so within the last hour or so. But, there are actually Christians who have understood the OP, responded intelligently to the OP and were not offended by the OP. So, 'Christians everywhere' is a stretch.
We're not Christians, don't you see? I belong to a cult that will one day produce the Anti-christ and you're just all sorts of messed up and you just don't understand true Christianity. I'm evil and you're confused, but neither of us are Christians. Don't you get it?
Well, sure. We just don't have the ability to properly discern. We lack the spirit. Or, more simply put, we don't agree with them so off with our heads.
More drama, and things not said! Or did I miss it......
Actually oceans. They have been said. To multiple people arguing against this brand of Christianity. You really need to learn the difference between drama and reality.
It wasn't drama to say, "Well, sure. We just don't have the ability to properly discern. We lack the spirit. Or, more simply put, we don't agree with them so off with our heads."
Its dramatic to say off with our heads, no? If not, really?
Yikes, did he actually say all that, or are you making this up that Bberean said that about you? That is not cool to say if he didn't say that.
Read the posts oceans. This mentality is what drove the beginning of the OP.
'If you aren't with us, you are against God'. Amazing that you are shocked at this point.That is a strange way of answering no, he didn't say that at all. Thanks. More of the same. I'll stop when you do.
Oceans, how much do you know about Catholicism? I first started studying them because I was confused by the fact my Catholic friends and I seemed to agree until you looked closer and I found we used the same terms but meant different things.
It is appropriate symbolism that the crucifix never lets Christ off the cross as His work was never completed. No salvation unless the church says so. No salvation unless you complete approved works. Salvation is tenuous, can be lost and regained. Is this the same Jesus you believe in? Protestants were right to protest. I'm not protestant, but most of them have that part right. Sinless Mary? Why not just make everyone sinless and spare Jesus the trouble if that was all that was required?
There are so many problems, this is just the tip of the iceberg and their origins betray why. So tell me, is that the Christ you know? Saints can do things to win you favor He could not? Rituals can assist in your salvation? Are you aware of their belief in and use of "relics" with mystical powers? They can't even have a church without one in it. Like I said this is just a small snapshot. Is that Christianity or do they just steal the terms and use if for marketing? The problem is, most Catholics don't even know all this.Now everything should be ooootay. I'm sure she'll back up and say everything vitriolic is perfectly fine and makes stellar sense.
Wow, before I even have a chance to respond, this is in line with all my other observations. Thanks for that Emile.
I would say call me psychic but you are pretty easily predicted.
That you say and stand behind this:
"Now everything should be ooootay. I'm sure she'll back up and say everything vitriolic is perfectly fine and makes stellar sense."
has me standing behind any comments of how of how incredibly in error at times, assuming of the worst about those you disagree with, and unfair you are. I almost asked if your worldview and conscience stand behind this kind of treatment of others, but this response above, answers that.
Not that are privy to what it even is, but we can tell a lot about it all the same. It all comes out one way or the other, I miss the old Emile, very much. Its not just a switching of sides to the other, but very intense and mean spirited. Like a different personality almost. I haven't even answered yet, and you can't resist this, and stand behind it. But I and others are the "bad guys...." makes perfect sense to me!
It is appropriate symbolism that the crucifix never lets Christ off the cross as His work was never completed.-- UNTRUE
No salvation unless the church says so.-- UNTRUE
No salvation unless you complete approved works.-- UNTRUE
Salvation is tenuous, can be lost and regained.-- TRUE, and I challenge you to find a single scripture that supports the false and dangerous Once Saved, Always Saved doctrine
Sinless Mary? Why not just make everyone sinless and spare Jesus the trouble if that was all that was required?-- Because not everyone was chosen to serve as the mother of the living God
Saints can do things to win you favor He could not?-- Christ can do all things. No one prays to a Saint for something that Christ can't do, we ask for their intercession on our behalf because "the prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective."(James 5:16) Who is more righteous than those who are already in Heaven?
Rituals can assist in your salvation?-- UNTRUE. Salvation is the free gift of God through the blood of Jesus Christ
Are you aware of their belief in and use of "relics" with mystical powers?-- UNTRUE. There is nothing magical about relics. They do not compel God to do anything, rather God works through them. Do you not believe in miracles?
They can't even have a church without one in it.-- UNTRUE
You know nothing of Catholicism. All you know are the lies told to try to tear down Catholicism.Keep them ignorant. Exploit their tendancy to follow superstition. Keep them beieving God can and does answer prayer. Discourage them from asking awkward questions.
This sheds even more light on something I was thinking previously. Thanks for sharing your thoughts again.
Catholic veneration of Mary involved in the processes of salvation and redemption.
Not scripturally supported. Non sequiturs
Catholic veneration of Mary as intermediary - intercessor- protector
Not scripturally supported.Mary is venerated by the angel who visits her to reveal the truth that she is with child in the Gospel of Luke. The angel says to her, "Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you." Hail is a greeting that at the time would have been reserved for royalty. Even now, the theme song of the President of the United States is "HAIL to the Chief". For the angel of the Lord to say hail to Mary, that speaks volumes about her place in the grand scheme of things. She gave birth to the Lord! She had a more intimate relationship with Him than she had with her own husband. No husband and wife bond is as intimate as that of the bond between mother and son.
Also, veneration is not the same as worship. Do you notice how pronouns that refer to Mary are not capitalized as they are with Christ and God? I write "she" and "her" when speaking of Mary, but "He" and "Him" when speaking about God. Because they are not on the same level. But she is definitely deserving of respect, which is what veneration is. A deep respect or regard for. Not worship
I encourage readers to look into it themselves rather than take your or my word for it. It is all accurate.
The problem with that is there are many anti-catholic resources out there spreading the same lies you are spreading. Why not get the truth from a knowledgeable Catholic's mouth? What possible reason would we have to lie about what we believe? I will gladly explain to anyone who cares to learn the truth about Catholic teachings and would be more than happy to use Scripture to back them up.
Real scripture or scripture like your greatest commandment thing?
That was real Scripture. I may have miscategorized loving your neighbor over loving God, and it wasn't my intention to say anything flat out wrong. However, everyone here has been ignoring the primacy of the love your neighbor commandment.
Yes, loving God is first and foremost. You can have a sincere love for your neighbor but not for God and you won't be saved. HOWEVER, you can NOT have a sincere love for God and not love your neighbor. It isn't possible. If you loved God truly, you would be compelled to show love for your fellow man. That is the only reason Jesus put love for God first. In truth, they go hand in hand and Paul knew this when he wrote that love was greater than faith.Now we are getting somewhere. Loving God with all your heart heart mind and soul is the First and Greatest Commandment period. All the rest is your opinion.
All the rest is my opinion as in "Love your neighbor as yourself"?? No, afraid not. Nor is the bit about Paul writing that of faith, hope and love, the greatest is love. I have given very little opinion. Almost everything I've said is Scriptural sound. The rest of you lot can't say the same since I am the only one backing up my words with Scripture
All the rest was Jesus's opinion. Too much information for you to filter?
Are you sure you don't want to start a new thread for this question? I think it might be a good idea, or else it could get crazy long an we are bumping this one over and over for such a different topic? I can answer over there if you like?
Just give the word either way, then I will answer this. Thanks.No need. I have addressed this in other threads. I just wanted to make sure you were aware of my allegations, which you can investigate yourself and find true. If you want assistance or resources in investigating them feel free to email me, but I don't need to influence your investigation otherwise. Most Catholics don't even know the teachings of their church, it's pagan roots or it's place in prophecy.
Ahh, you want me to stop what I see as more than fair and accurate as I show along the way, but you won't commit to stopping. Ok then.
I knew I should have said welcome back. I need to listen to my gut more! People tell me this too, as I am often right but I hesitate to make sure on things......
You are right, saying off with our heads is hilarious, especially now.
I do feel that the Queen of Hearts is alive and well among us. The quote seemed appropriate.
Ill take note that you like people to give you the benefit of the doubt when unsure of your complete motive, all things considered. Most people like that done for them. I think we all would.
- Emile Rposted 10 years ago0
Who are you to judge another man's servant? Do you have any idea how arrogant that comes off? You are implying that you are a servant and another person isn't. Servants don't usually speak for their master anyway. Which makes one less inclined to wonder who is really behind your words.
- Emile Rposted 10 years ago0
Was that directed at me? It's hard to tell. The page isn't updating, but I find it difficult to fathom you directed it elsewhere.
No. We don't agree on the purpose of the OT. Again, that is a disagreement, not an affront to God on my part. - Emile Rposted 10 years ago0
OK. Let's start from scratch. I have said over and over again. What we believe to be true on a cosmic level is a belief. We all have them and we all have the right to them. How those beliefs affect our actions is what is important on this level of existence.
Yes, I find belief in hell abhorrent. I, personally, believe if heaven exists the worst sinners will be embraced by God first, because they need his love the most. Sue me.
Anyway, cosmic beliefs set to the side. Jesus is the example to look toward for behavior patterns. He made a simple statement. : You shall love the Lord your God with all your hear, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength."The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these ."
I put the word these in bold. Because it matters. It's like superman said. Anyone can claim to love God. You can't question that. It's a private thing. But, loving your neighbor is there for the world to see.
Anyone who attempts to push forward the philosophy Jesus said was the most important is attempting to do his will. That is pleasing to see and I will comment on it positively when I see it.
I am not giving anyone the benefit of the doubt beyond what is fair. I think he embodies the spirit of Christ in his words. I'd do the same for anyone who embodies the spirit of Christ with their comments.
As to defending with another passage, I think you misunderstood. He was pushing that love was the highest commandment (by my understanding). Phoenix was attempting to hem love in to a narrower parameter than what Jesus intended (by my understanding) If you see that as demeaning him I think you might step back and see if you aren't actually the one attempting to find more fault here. I see this all of the time. Someone puts forth that Love is important and the fundamentalist parries with a comment that Love of God is the point. The point is much bigger than that. - Emile Rposted 10 years ago0
Except for number 5 which I was simply attempting to point out that superman was quoting Corinthians, not Mark. Where's your beef? How has anyone twisted anything? There is no other commandment greater than these, so if someone is attempting to embody the spirit of those greatest commandments......that's twisting? Perhaps, someone is gyrating (other than those you hope to paint in a faulty light?)
- Emile Rposted 10 years ago0
The problem, as I see it, is that you use your belief in your vision of God to ignore his will. That will being Love. Oh. But that's right. You define love differently, so that it all works within your belief structure.
- Emile Rposted 10 years ago0
I'm afraid I have to say I have found you to be rather mean spirited in this thread also. Not really a different personality for you, just bolder with it.
Thank you. From the person that talks about with another just today like this,
Emile: "I'm sure many fundamentalists would love to have a Christian form of an Imam, so they could issue fatwahs and send people out in the streets to beat us, or douse us with acid if we didn't bow to their interpretation. Their interpretation being every knee will bend to them, since they have the holy spirit and we don't.
Unfortunately, without that power they are left with the nany nany boo boo defense."
which was in response to this, "JMcFarland wrote:
Such a shame that we don't live in a theocracy that allows the burning of heretics, homosexuals and atheists any more. I'd say he may be more comfortable in the middle east, except they have the antiquated rules but a different god, and his beliefs would probably land him in some dangerous hot water." Which came after the same two were discussing the below:
"JMcFarland wrote:
Probably not, since he's also throwing the word "herectic" around. Maybe he's trying to distract while he collects wood for the bonfire to burn everyone in."
Emile wrote:
"'m sure it's a fantasy that keeps him warm at night".
This is just a few hours ago now.
Page 67 isn't much better, where we find from you:
"It's what your belief all boils down to. Billions and billions incinerated. Just so you can feel an itsy witsy bit better about yourself. It's really weird when you stop to think about it. If you stop to think about it. But, I wouldn't imagine you'd do that."
I feel sort of let down almost, as these types of comments right help to create a lens of the gauge I ought to use for interpreting your current comment to me. I do admit to letting loose tonight, because its my last chance with you, for one, and I truly think you or at least others needed to hear what I shared. It all needed to be answered. Of course you see me as mean. I don't tell you what you want to hear, but this isn't a change I have made, but you. For your benefit, I am not just caving in and being a fair weathered friend like you seem to have suddenly gained for the change, no matter when or how subtle its process was. Point remains you have friends now that treated your before, the same you are treating me.
Yet its a 180, to match your own. Classic description of a fair weathered friend or acquaintance. Path of least resistance too, uncharacteristic but also observed with its "rewards." Still, I will take these words to heart, but my heart and spirit actually want the very best for you. I really believe that you or others might feel like what I am doing is mean spirited and that you really might think you have not maligned me or anyone else It is not, what was I hoping to gain other than the obvious consequence, The possible yet remote gain at some point, was worth it I think, though not placing bets yet for the odds. Nothing is impossible for God.
Thanks for your comment there.
- Emile Rposted 10 years ago0
Morally superior? I've never made that claim. Now, it appears you are channeling behavior patterns of another and making up stories about me, to make yourself feel better.
Like how Genaea feels an itsy bit better about herself for the possible hope the incineraton of billions? (Not verbatim, going by memory....) All that read it will recall that
I am not claiming to quote you saying anything quite like that, "I am morally superior", its the spirit, the tone, the actions I am observing. Everything else you are saying, the judgements. No one admits it like that, but you judge it of others doing it with their religion. Its inherent, obvious. None of this makes me feel better, its horrifying. Its why people go and stay gone, its why I shouldn't come back, because people aren't even starting out on the same page, but I always assume we will be, with the simple morals, reason, logic, etc. Let down every time, its predictable, minus the surprise changes here and there like with you this time.OK. Good.I'm glad you finally made that statement. I didn't say it, you just got it from my words. That's been my point all along. That is the problem with the fundamentalist mentality. Whether things are said out right, or implied; the posts come across as smarmy, believing themselves to be cosmically superior, needing to shove their heels in others backs in order to believe themselves superior. That they have 'spirit' where others don't, that others are making it up when they don't agree, that they are 'evil mankind', they are compared to satan, etc etc etc
So, now we know how I am coming across and the mindset I started this thread to discuss is coming across. Do we address all of it, or just the parts you find offensive?
"So you are saying that Mary has no "active" role in salvation, redemption, protection, or intercession for salvation?"
Mary absolutely played a vital and active role in salvation. She was the vessel through which God came to Earth. No Mary, no Jesus. She gave Jesus to the world through her womb. She raised him. He nursed at her breast! She absolutely played a vital role in salvation. As for protection, do you not believe that you have a Guardian Angel? Do you not believe that those in Heaven watch over us? And if not, why do you begrudge those who do believe it? How is it wrong to look to those in Heaven for guidance and protection, the same as we may seek guidance and protection from our friends and family on Earth? Is it blasphemous to ask a friend for advice or to pray for you? If not, then why is it blasphemous to ask for advice or prayer from one who is in Heaven? Surely the saints in Heaven are closer to God than your friends on Earth.No Mary's Grandpa, No Jesus. You have no scriptural support for any of these beliefs. To paraphrase your earlier post "It speaks volumes" Well that's called confirmation bias, fallacy of incomplete evidence and non sequitur. That is why you have to change "active role" to "vital role". Regardless, you have brought no scripture.
Neither of you got any historical support (support of fact or reason for that matter) for this.
Please don't tell me we have to "hail" Mary's grandpa...
I think the problem is that he has a well grounded understanding of Christ. It's difficult for some to fathom there is more than one Catholic out there who has it. Being heretics and whores of Babylon they just shouldn't have a better understanding of Christ than the fundamentalist.
Sir Dent said: A scenario bout judging.
Where I live we do not have streets and sidewalks. We have a two lane road and that's it. It is against the law to drive on the left side of the doulbe yellow lines. Punishable with a ticket, most likely unless you are intoxicated.
If I see a person walking on this road toward me in my lane, do I stay on my side to keep from crossing the center line, which is illegal? If I do not move over, the one walking will be hit with my car.
Now I ask, which should I do?
----
I think, in context of the current disagreement, we'd have some ask.....are you with us or against us? The answer would determine whether the pedestrian got mowed down. On the up side, they'd claim it was in the name of God so they'd feel pretty certain all was good.
Mary was a vessel. She has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with salvation. She was USED to bring Jesus.
Not even Jesus gave her special credence.
When people die, they are conscious of nothing. I read that in the bible once.
A prayer to a friend in heaven, goes unheard.
Jesus said pray to the father.
Jesus never once said, ask your favorite dead person..."When people die, they are conscious of nothing."
So you don't believe in Heaven or in Eternal Life. Got it. I suppose this goes along with your firmly held doctrine that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate and distinct beings. You have lost all credibility. By your own admission, Jesus was not God. He was a separate entity.
" I read that in the bible once."
LOL, no, you most certainly did notThis is what you THOUGHT you read. Or, at least, what you read and misunderstood:
"2 It is the same for all. There is one fate for the righteous and for the wicked; for the good, for the clean and for the unclean; for the man who offers a sacrifice and for the one who does not sacrifice. As the good man is, so is the sinner; as the swearer is, so is the one who [c]is afraid to swear. 3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one fate for all men. Furthermore, the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil and insanity is in their hearts throughout their lives. Afterwards they go to the dead. 4 For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. 6 Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun."
Ecclesiastes 9:2-5
What this ACTUALLY says, is that those who are in Hell know nothing of God and that they have already been forgotten by God and by all who are alive in Heaven. The passage draws a distinction between those who are dead and those who are among the living. The righteous and the wicked. It is very clearly speaking of those who are dead to Christ and those who are alive in Christ. Those in Heaven and those in Hell. The saints in Heaven are alive and are not part of the dead who "do not know anything."Did you MISS the little part that reads, the living know that they will die"???
Any dying going on in heaven???
Think only with the mind of Christ.
My family (they who DO the will of my father) know that God the father and son are THREE ENTITIES They ALL confirm...
So you've got another think coming...Maybe you'd like to drop the charade? Rest up for tomorrow???
The nonsene can wait...
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