What is wrong with a life of faith?
OMG! (the "G" stands for Gawd, not God) - what is with these athiests?
I am not a youngster. And I am not a believer. But I am envious of the serenity true believers appear to find in their life.
Now... don't try to proselytize to me, and don't try to prove your faith is the only truth. It may be to you, but you are not me, (or anyone else). My opinion is that a faithful belief can only be true if it is your choice, not something you were convinced of.
True believers seem so content in their life. They go through the same day-to-day struggles as non-believers, but their faith seems to lend them the strength to still find a silver lining in even the darkest of storm clouds.
So, my question is; Why do non-believers so stridently condemn and/or denigrate a believer's faith? If you are a non-believer, why are you so adamant in condemning believers just because their belief can't be empirically proven? Is a believers serenity in their faith harming you? Even though they can't prove the truth they believe - can you disprove it? (I don't think you can - barring the extremes of Biblical Literalists, which I think can be refuted)
What are atheists afraid of? Why do atheists attack believers with such ferocity? I am an I-don-t-know-believer because.... Duh! I don't know.
Come on atheists, so what if a believer can't prove they are right, beyond their undeniable belief that they are, how are they harming you? How can you be so sure they are wrong? Why do you attack them so voraciously?
To me, atheists that disagree with believers are one thing, but atheists that attack believers are showing their insecurity. So why would a strident atheist feel so insecure?
Just sayin'
GA{EDIT} to my own post. Let me qualify my post by saying I perceive a definate difference between those that live their faith in confidence and those that try to "push" their faith onto others.
For you live-your-faithers, good for you, I am jealous. For you pushers - get a grip, just because it is real to you does not mean it is is real to the rest of us.
GATo directly answer your question, nothing. It is a choice. What matters to Atheists and agnostics, perhaps, is how that faith (belief) manifests itself in society or in a government.
Believe what you will and if you are happy in that belief then good for you. As an Atheist, I claim no universal or constant truths that you are required to accept and unless you, as a theist, can provide a reasoned truth to your claims do not present them as truths.
As an Atheist I enjoy my life and my accomplishments and I would expect others to find their own comfort zone without the condemnation of others.Some Atheists can get suicidal at times- as being human is hard, but if . Believers do, they pray for help and- get it!
Better to be a believer.
My first guess is that you will get some interesting and varied responses to this one.
My own opinion when it comes to religion is "to each his own." Two things that turn me off are someone knocking on my door to try to "sell" me their brand of religion, and the other is someone "attacking" another person because of their religious beliefs.
Here we are again at the Christmas season, and yes I did say "Christmas" rather than "Holiday" season. As usual, we have athiests attacking others because they want to put Nativity scenes on so called public property. They threaten lawsuits and in some cases even destruction of the scene itself.
It would be different if the athiests were being herded onto a bus, hauled to the site, and forced to stare at the Nativity scene. But in reality they can walk or drive right by without even looking at it.
It would seem that the real problem lies with those who have become radicals on both ends of the religious spectrum. Those in the middle are comfortable in their choice of religious beliefs.Christians believe in helping others find God, as salvation is important. I'm not pushy though. I think the best testimony is living a good life.
Amen
Good point. I'd like to know why too!!!
There is nothing wrong with a life of faith...unless it is used to determine the rules and regulations for others...One can believe as they wish...but once they start using those beliefs to dictate how I am to live my life then there is a problem.
Legalize Gay marriage...Remove religion from politics...keep religion out of schools...in short...keep beliefs to oneself...and we can all live our lives as we wish..
I wasn't talking about myself per se...I was talking in general...It sounds like you want to determine the rules and regulations for others.
Not at all...I would like to see rules and regulation made based on ALL Human rights...Not just the "rights" of the believer...
Which is why I said what I said earlier...There is nothing wrong with living by beliefs...unless one is using those beliefs to infringe on others...i.e. Gay marriage not legal...or one certain religion being used to set the rules for all...or being taught as the only correct religion...
So unless we are going to use each and every religious belief system (to include the lack there of) to make political decisions or teach them in school...then we should just stick with the basics...
Just as a point...I was saying to remove the personal beliefs from the rules and regulations...which of course is not the case in this country...
Each and every human has the right to live and be treated the same as everyone else...so if a gay couple wishes to enjoy the "enjoyment" of marriage just like any other couple...why are we allowing our personal faith beliefs to prevent that...
Why do we use our personal faith beliefs to create laws that only benefit the few instead of ALL...
Each person hold a belief in faith that doesn't match everyone else...so why are we wishing to teach that is school...Even if we did teach...lets say Christian Catholic beliefs in school...everyone who was not Catholic would be all up in arms about it...because they don't follow the Catholic teachings...they are Baptist...or Lutheran...or JW...
I also believe that belonging to a religion should be a choice and not something one is obliged to be part of. Then that "faith" is fear based and is not to be envied at all.
I suspect that some atheists try and put down a person's faith is because they feel threatened by it. The thought that God, the Holy Father of Jesus, may exist is too scary. There is no atheist who can say that they have never thought of the possibility that God exists and that Jesus is the son of God. Some believe if you ridicule believers then it vindicates themselves. If they can shake a believer to lose their faith, it makes them feel they have the truth. Believe it or not, but many people are threatened by Jesus.
Or atheists could just say Christians are mean so they need to be told off or that Christianity is destroying the world.I came up with this theory, Claire:
Atheists don't need God, while theists do.
They get by just fine without any realization of a spiritual force beyond themselves and are just fine with being their own little source of energy.
I, as a theist, feel that I am watching out for the Big Source of All Life, who Jesus loved and the saints of all religions reveal.
Watching.They don't have the realization that they do need God. It's easy to say you don't need God when life is relatively good but in the bad times it may be a different story. We all need God for the salvation of our souls. Not everyone realizes that.
Your response is more inline with the original OP's question. Thanks.
I do not think yours is an unreasonable possibility because it is the often seen vehemence of non-believer's attacks on believers that I was speaking of. Not the mechanics or validity of either belief.
The question was not asking for a justification of belief or non-belief, but rather a question of why so many non-believers feel the need to attack with knives drawn.
GAI apologize for being off topic and responding more to other posts within the thread. When I begin a thread I don't mind that it evolves, and I forget that due to differing personalities some would rather stay strictly on topic.
Thanks. And no worries. I am used to seeing threads take off in other directions.
I try to keep on topic where ever possible because... well, because there was an original topic.
I am feeling benevolent today, so I won't tie your shoe laces together or put glue in your chair.
It is good to see your participation, so carry on.
GAI didn't see any promises about pigtails in the inkwell...
Too messy. I always liked the sneaky approach.
GA
You're a good natured guy GA. I wish there was a hundred like you on the forum. Merry Christmas.
I once tried an experiment. I was with a friend and we were just school kids at the time. I mixed some vinegar and baking soda together and got a reaction from the chemicals. Then my friend repeated the experiment and got the same reaction and we had observed both reactions. Then my friend looked at me and said something very strange, I thought at the time. He said 2 + 3 = 5 and I thought it all strange, at that moment, so strange that I woke up and realized I had been dreaming. The observed and repeated chemical reactions, did not actually happen, but the math problem of 2+ 3 = 5 remained true. Why so much faith in empirical?
Nothing! In fact it is a good thing, as you have already clearly explained.
"True believers seem so content in their life. They go through the same day-to-day struggles as non-believers, but their faith seems to lend them the strength to still find a silver lining in even the darkest of storm clouds." GA AndersonIf everyone were to be honest. Nobody knows if God exist OR not.
Nobody known’s the 99% unknown world so nobody can claim to know God.
Humans collectively do not know the unknown wild blue yonder of the 99,99999999 unknown Unknown Universe in order to know god.
I think I know the super hungry ego to know the unknown mean a lot of fear and fighting.If you acknowledge that so much is unknown to humans, then why claim to know that God does not reveal Himself, and thus may in fact be known?
Probably because out of the millions (billions?) of claims to know a god, not a single person has ever been able to show it. Eventually the false claims simply overwhelm everything and we don't believe any of them.
God is revealed by one's own intuitive perception of his Spirit and presence.
TWISIOne's own intuitive perception is limited to the 99% unknown world.
Most likely your perception of God would be different if you lived in the Middle East, China or India among the other millions of other Gods to choose from.
Or lack of God in many places in Northern Europe or Russia.
Since people believe three times greater in aliens existence than in Yahweh existence. Your belief on the another planet would be way different again.The people of Eastern religions know that all their "gods" relate to the ONE. They are manifestations of the One God behind all.
Do Jews, Christians, Muslims, and Hindus worship the same God? If so, people of all faiths can live peaceably in this world, can't they?
Why is Yahweh jealous of the millions of other Gods? Why would a country like USA, with the largest number of Christians have 25% of prisons and 50% the military of the world. Why are 90% of the wars about Religion? Why are more Christians locked up in prisons than any other group.
Could it be an addiction to slave masters and over obedience.We have 50% of the world Military because we seem to always be needed to fight some other countries battles for them.
Perhaps there are more Christians in prison because there are more Christians than members of other faiths? I don't know and had never heard this before.killing never stops killing,it's only increases it.
USA calls it the defense budget yet most of us in the world know it's about stealing other countries oil or drugs. No wonder lying is the greatest American pastime
Why not clean up your own backyard first.
Send those natives back to where they came from too,- your backyard,
God reveals Himself to us. A human can't show you God revealed, only God through His Spirit can do that. Even if you saw signs and wonders, as many have (either from someone who walks with God, or someone with demonic powers, giving false signs and wonders), you would not recognize these as of God (or of the devil) without the Holy Spirit's revelation and guidance. The most a human can do for you is pray to the Father that your spiritual eyes be opened, speak words of truth to you, share our testimony, spark your interest through our testimonies or lives, live as examples of Christ's love, etc. All these things matter, they are all seeds, but God alone brings about true revelation and spiritual awakening. And we pray in Jesus' name that it may be so for you, Wilderness!
I don't think it's working, maybe if you follow and repeat endlessly to Wilderness everywhere.
Maybe he might get too tired and submit without thought.You seem to be confusing prayers to the Father with words to an unbeliever. I'm not saying anything to Wilderness that would be "working" or not working. As for prayer, it does work, but the timing and method are not up to us.
That's nice. Some extra-universal ET puts thoughts in your head, but not into others. Makes you pretty special, doesn't it?
You do realize just how bad that sounds when it's put that way?You will never make a good slave, Wilderness.
I let them be slaves and fight devils, no skin off my bodyI fear I would not. It just isn't my style at all.
Self imposed slavery is not always a bad thing, though, it just isn't for everybody.Thinking for yourself first is not for everyone.
Maybe some are better off not thinking."Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living." Romans 6:16
How can you be a slave to a God who you love? I would rather say servant. Slave implies coercion.
I'm no man or God slave, except maybe those 3 month I thought I was a Christian.
Is your Government your servant or your master. Answer correctly then move on to why the Government used Religion as a tool to fight wars and pray before going into battle. Then you will know if your a slave. Or if your the strongest person in the world without the right to need to know yet do know fear and fight is not the answer.
No mafia is my family, sharing love and self reliance will set you free.The government is neither my master or servant. As long as Jesus is your God, you cannot be a slave to anyone else. Religion has been a very useful tool when it comes to dictatorship. However, Jesus breaks the bonds of all slavery. There's a difference between being a slave to religion and a slave to God. You can't love religion like you can love God.
God is love so He sets me free."However, Jesus breaks the bonds of all slavery. There's a difference between being a slave to religion and a slave to God. You can't love religion like you can love God. God is love so He sets me free." Amen!
God speaks. We hear and answer. It's not because we're more "special" since all are special - each one is a one-of-a-kind masterpiece. If anything, it's humbling to know that God through His mercy has chosen us who are no more special or deserving than anyone else.
For the vast majority of people who ever lived on the planet and for most of the population who have no idea who Yahweh is today. Are they still all special for not knowing anything about Yahweh?
If so, are we not safer from not knowing Yahweh and also from going to hell.?All people, even those who do not yet know God, are special. God created them uniquely and magnificently, and they have intrinsic value having been created in God's very image. Because all people matter, we speak truth in love to all people, no matter who they are or what they've done, in the hopes that they too will share in this eternal life that is offered to all.
God was not obligated to give us life and He is not obligated to give us eternal life. Life is a gift and eternal life an eternal gift. Having been given this present gift of life based only on God's goodness and mercy and not our deserving merit, how can we complain if anyone is not given the additional gift of eternal life? We thank God for this life, and we thank Him with ever greater gratitude for the ever more precious eternal life. We did nothing to deserve it, we are not entitled to it, and we cannot complain about anyone not being given it since we recognize that it is a gift and not a deserved thing or anything we're entitled to. We cannot truthfully say "I am special so God gave me eternal life", but rather in truth we say "God who is merciful gave me this undeserved gift, and He has offered to give it to you as well." Thank the Lord for the life you have. Turn to Him and He will give you eternal life!
When, how and to whom God reveals Himself is beyond our knowledge. It was prophesied that God would open the doors of salvation to people of all nations, and that has happened. Christianity has spread throughout the world and His believers come from every nation, just as foretold. Those who lived before Jesus Christ were also given an opportunity to accept the Lord as Savior when Jesus went to them and offered salvation. God is just and fair. Each one will be judged according to his/her own deeds and level of accountability. Those who claim their own righteousness apart from the Lord and false teachers who lead people astray from God are in dangerous positions. The Lord, who alone is perfect, will judge and bring about true justice. All those who look to God in faith and are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ, the perfect sacrifice for our sins and our Redeemer, will be counted as righteous and given the promised eternal life with the Lord."Those who lived before Jesus Christ were also given an opportunity to accept the Lord as Savior when Jesus went to them and offered salvation."
Jesus went to the aborigines of Australia? The Aztecs and Incas? The Chinese of the time? The Vikings of Europe? This is all news to me - there are no records of any such visits.
And yet only a few "hear" God speak. He chooses who shall hear and by that very action makes them special.
Or perhaps what the "chosen" hear is but their own conscience speaking to them - something we ALL hear. That they then attribute that still small voice to a god is the only difference.The LORD came and stood there, calling as at the other times, "Samuel! Samuel!" Then Samuel said, "Speak, for your servant is listening." (1 Samuel 3:10)
The Lord speaks. It is up to us to listen. It doesn't make us "special" that we listen. But it does make us the Lord's, and this is better than being "special".
The voice of the Lord is distinct from our own and He makes it known to us."distinct from our own". Can you tell me, what is the difference? How can you tell it is God rather than yourself? What makes you attribute this thought to God but that one to yourself?
We test through the Spirit. And the Spirit reveals and gives assurance. It is He who leads us into all truth. He testifies with our spirits so that we know that He is and that we belong to Him.
We think this or that, we expect this or that to happen, we tell ourselves this is right and that is wrong or this is good and that is bad, we have thoughts that we monitor and correct, thoughts we recognize are silly, etc. This is all us and even if we have an internal dialogue, we recognize it as all coming from us. But then there is that which comes from the Lord and we discern it as from the Lord through the Spirit of the Lord inside all of us who are believers. He gives us assurance, confirmation, knowledge of things we don't know, peace and comfort, and so on.
Sometimes God speaks audibly, sometimes through a thought or sensation, sometimes through other people, sometimes through Scriptures, and so on. Here's an example of a time God spoke and I recognized it as His voice and listened. I was asleep in my bed when the Lord woke me in the middle of the night with a stern command. "Go, check the stove." I went downstairs where my alcoholic husband was passed out / asleep and where he had left pizza and the oven on and might have burned down the house. This was the first time this had happened, it wasn't anything I was expecting, I'd been sound asleep, etc. But I immediately recognized that the command came from the Lord and listened. My own thoughts I don't pay so much mind to, even in similar situations. For instance, I've heard noises while sleeping, thought drowsily that it might be an intruder, but been too tired to get up and gone back to sleep hoping it's all fine.Interesting. What kind of tests do you make? I've never been able to conceive of any such a test - what it is you do?
I understand that you "perceive" it as from God. When we hear a voice we might compare it to what we've heard before, but that's a comparison of sound, timbre, etc. How to you perceive it is a god when there is no sound or anything at all our senses can pick up?
You dreamed a voice and attribute it to a god. Why? What was so different about this sound that it had to be a god?
These are the types of things we ask before acknowledging truth. We all make mistakes, which is why such questions are made - are you really "testing", or just attributing it to a god without ever knowing?We have our thoughts, our opinions and so on and we recognize it as such. But the Spirit within us gives distinct knowledge and assurance. It's when we know that we know that we know. I'm a questioning, indecisive, often insecure, analytical person who can see so many possibilities that it's often hard for me to know anything. No one would want me on a jury because I'd pretty much never get to "beyond a reasonable doubt" because I think there's almost always another possibility. But God gives a certainty that doesn't exist without Him. Upon hearing the clear command "Go, check the stove", I knew it was the voice of the Lord and so I obeyed (unlike any of the times when I myself thought there could be an intruder because of a noise while sleeping, yet I sleepily chose to take my chances and go back to sleep). I wasn't thinking about the stove, but was peacefully sleeping with no idea it was on, and I wasn't in the habit of checking the stove or worrying about it. The confirmation is the fact that for the first time "coincidentally" at the time I was commanded to check it, the oven was in fact on while we slept due to my husband being drunk / passed out with it on, and it could have been a life threatening situation due to his alcoholism had the Lord not protected us.
You're questioning and analytical, but can only say that you know. No testing (in spite of saying you did test), no questions, you just know. You would have trouble with "reasonable doubt" in a court, but never even try to find alternative answers after "knowing" a god has spoken.
You will understand, then, when someone that is analytical and questioning fails to agree that you actually know anything at all. It is the eternal difference between the believer and non-believer; one takes belief as knowledge and one does not. You believe a god spoke, but have no evidence that it was a god and fail to check; the only possible answer to the analytical is that your belief is not knowledge at all.Questioning and analyzing are for that which we don't yet know. So most things in life are yet questioned and analyzed. But when we know the Lord intimately, we no longer have any need to question or analyze His existence and that which He reveals to us. Once the Holy Spirit dwells within us, we know spiritual things through the Spirit. Though we cannot convince those without the Spirit, the Spirit within us confirms truth to us and will not allow us to fall from it.
God speaks continually. I gave you an example in my life, and in fact the example had "evidence". Had I "dreamt" a command to check the oven on ANY other night of my forty years of life, then the confirmation would have been lacking, for on any other night the oven would not have been on with everyone in the house sleeping. But in fact I was commanded to check the oven on the one night it was on while we slept. Why are you so determined to dismiss any evidence and falsely state there is none?Kind of what I said, isn't it? You "know" God and so don't question or test it, but you've never questioned and certainly never tested it!
As far as your "evidence", did you hear the thermostat clicking on and off in your sleep? Did you hear the hum of the element in the quiet of the night? Did you realize the husband had turned it on (heard the noise?) but not off? There have to be a dozen things that might have woken you to go and check that an oven that could do no harm outside of running up the electric bill was turned off. So no, there is no reason to think that a god told you to do it - you just like the idea and thus assign the workings of your own brain to a god. A god, after all, watching over you is far less likely than your own mind doing so and the conclusion of a god must therefore be placed at the bottom of the list of possibilities to be considered as a probable explanation.I test the voice of the Lord through the Spirit. I test spirits. I question whether things are of God or not. For example, I may say to God, if it's you telling me and you want me to do this, then give me this sign (something unlikely to happen). If I've experienced a supernatural manifestation, I examine whether it is from the Lord or demons. Some things the Lord makes clear are from Him, some things we question. But there is always confirmation or I don't state it as definitively from the Lord. For example, it is my belief that the Lord supernaturally calmed me during a panic attack recently, as I felt a peculiar presence suddenly sweep over me from head to toe and in one instant the wide range of physical and psychological aspects of the panic attack disappeared. Simply because the Lord didn't announce Himself, I haven't said definitively that it was the Lord, yet it was uncharacteristic of the typical progress of a panic attack and seems unaccounted for by other aspects of the situation.
As for the oven example, I was in an upstairs bedroom on the opposite side of the house; I heard nothing. I woke to the voice commanding me to go check the oven. I thought my husband was awake so I wouldn't have cared if the oven was on without the command. But he was passed out. Ovens left on for extended times have the potential to cause fires, especially in houses as old as our downtown house was. The Lord awakened me and instructed me to go to the oven, and it's the one time the old oven was on while we slept. Why would I question that this was from the Lord who I experience regularly and already know intimately?
I don't like the idea of demons, yet I attribute things to their attacks. It's not about what ideas we like.But "unlikely" and "impossible" are two very different things. "Unlikely" simply means the cause is not discerned but possible, "impossible" means a god did it. So why not ask for the impossible as proof instead of the unlikely that shows nothing? Particularly as the unlikely is such a great way to make the conclusion subjective, dependent on your own values and beliefs?
How do you "examine" whether something is god produced or demon? By asking yourself whether the results are good or not? Does that not beg the question by assuming the god does only good while demons do only evil? In other words, the preset belief system determines the conclusion, not the facts?
How do you know you didn't hear anything as you were asleep? I know I've heard things while asleep that only later did I figure out why I awoke - no reason to think it isn't a common occurrence. It's much like intuition, where we act or believe based on concrete physical events we don't even realize we collected through our natural senses.
Or course beliefs come from what we like - as demons reinforce the belief in the god "system", they are a good thing. They are also a great way to write off the bad events of life instead of following through with the concept that a god is guiding all that happens to us. That path leads to an understanding that the god isn't the benevolent creature we like to think it is, so negative aspects of our life are attributed to demons for no more reason than to maintain the belief of benevolence.Faith is the means by which we come to know the Lord. I don't ask for proof of what I already know, so I don't ask God to prove His existence, which would be a very faithless thing to do. And it would likely not be honored, as His design is that the "righteous" live by faith while in the natural world. One day He will be revealed to the world, including those who lacked faith, but for now it occurs through faith. I do seek His will and will occasionally ask for signs related to His will. More often I experience manifestations that I didn't ask for, but which generally occur while simply seeking Him (but sometimes occur spontaneously).
I examine whether something is of the Lord or demons by looking at where something supernatural has come from. I don't know if you previously saw a post about a man at a bizarre who approached me and asked if I wanted to hold a stuffed puppy. I thought he was a crazy old man and wondered why he thought I'd want to hold a stuffed animal (rather than giving it to my then two-year-old son). So as not to offend him, I took it, and unexpected to me I experienced a surge of spiritual energy, warmth, power, etc. I was in a secular setting, hadn't expected it, and didn't know whether it came from a good or evil place. To determine, I quickly looked at his pamphlets and saw that he and his wife were non-profit Christian missionaries who made the stuffed puppies for orphaned children in other countries to comfort them. The puppies were anointed, but this was unknown to me and came as quite a surprise. Had the pamphlets said they were of Satan or a false religion, I would have been pretty freaked out to have experienced a supernatural manifestation from an evil source and would have gotten out of there pretty quickly.
I know I didn't hear anything while asleep because I was too far away from the oven, which makes quiet noises. Not only upstairs, but at the opposite side of the house.
God is guiding all, but has given this natural world over to Satan to rule, as we humans chose to follow him rather than God from the beginning. We are being given a taste of what it is like to be ruled by Satan, but with God's goodness and mercy still in us and with us. We can choose to continue submitting to Satan or we can turn to Love, who is waiting in mercy for us.And there is the answer, in your first sentence. Faith is how you "know" God, not understanding that faith can never "know" anything. Faith is neither knowledge or based on knowledge, but instead on belief and desire and can never be trusted to produce truth. Not understanding this, the believer is forever at a loss as to why their "knowledge" is not accepted by that questioning, analytical non-believer that requires something beyond faith or belief.
The puppy tale is an excellent example of the lack of test or questioning of the believer. Satan could just easily (through demons) produced the literature that so convinced you it was God, and could even have produced the good feeling you experienced. But...no questions, no tests, just an automatic assumption that it was good because it felt that way and had the proper literature. Again, something no one analyzing anything would ever do, but something the believer does all the time and accepts as more than adequate. Subjective feelings, after all, are worthless to the analyzer when looking for truth.When we speak of knowing the Lord, we are not merely speaking of knowing that He exists, we're speaking of a personal relationship, an intimacy, etc. We "get to know Him" through faith. We understand that all these things come about through the Holy Spirit, and that without the Spirit it's impossible for you to come to know the Lord. The natural mind is at enmity with God and as long as you approach him in your own natural way, you will never find Him. You have to set yourself aside and simply, humbly, faithfully seek for revelation through the Spirit.
The unexpected supernatural manifestation could have been either from good or evil and I simply didn't know, so I looked into it. It wasn't even so much a "good" feeling, as it was quite startling. We see in Scriptures that a visit by angels often produced fear in those being visited, though they were always assured there was no need for fear. It's not about the feeling being good. I've often been overwhelmed by manifestations, pushed them away, even experienced some discomfort (especially behind my eyes) while either having the Spirit poured into me or transferring to an alternate consciousness (which I'm not always sure which is happening). I agree that Satan could have produced the feeling and that is why I promptly read on it to determine exactly what I was dealing with. My thought was simply, "either that was from God or there's something evil going on here; I need to see who's behind this". The unexpected sensations/surges/feelings didn't tell me whether it was good or bad, but only that something spiritual/supernatural was taking place. I had to see if it aligned with the truth I know through the Word and the Holy Spirit to determine from what place it had come.It is quite impossible to have a "personal relationship" with an undetectable, immaterial something...unless that "something" is actually yourself. Your thoughts, your feelings, your emotions.
Which, at it's root, is what you've been saying. You cannot (and refuse to try) to come up with solid evidence of that "something" outside of ignorance (don't know what made you wake up so it was a god) and feelings/emotions (a good feeling washed over you). The only conclusion available, then, is that your god is yourself; your conscience, your feelings, your emotions, even your thoughts.
But I'm really at a loss to explain that any other way, and I know very well you will refuse to even consider this. It doesn't fit with your faith or belief and so is wrong without ever being tested for veracity (and no, I have zero idea how to check or test for an undetectable entity controlling your thoughts).To the natural mind this is all foolishness. Through the Holy Spirit we come to know the Lord intimately, have relationship with Him and fall in love with Him.
Just as you minimize the "grand coincidences" occurring with astonishing frequency in the lives of the faithful, so also you minimize the supernatural experiences. We've all wakened with thoughts of this or that. I may awaken thinking "Maybe I should check if that noise was an intruder". THIS voice was recognized as separate from my own and it had an authority so that I actually listened (unlike when I go back to sleep after hearing noises and thinking I should check them out). I was instructed in a voice different than my own: "Go, check the oven", and amazingly for the first time in my life the old oven "happened" to be on while everyone in the house slept because my drunken husband was passed out with it on.
So likewise what you are dismissing as "a good feeling washing over" me was unlike any "good feeling" I've experienced strictly within the natural realm, but was a startling, jolting surge / waves of power unmatched by the good feelings experienced ordinarily. If you ever experience such, you will stop, startled and wondering what on earth just happened.
While perhaps present in very early childhood when walking with the Lord, for me such experiences began only after the Lord returned me to Himself in my mid twenties and poured His Spirit onto me in a manner I was not fully aware occurred and was certainly not expecting. These experiences are nothing like the "good feelings" I experienced in my natural state without the Lord, but are indescribably more powerful, real, alarming, awakening, empowering, overwhelming, humbling, electrifying, astonishing, addictive, arresting...If I hallucinated the voice "Go, check the oven", that's pretty amazing that it happened to be the only time the oven was on while we slept. And if I hallucinated the sensations that came from the stuffed puppy, that's pretty interesting that it happened to be made and anointed by Christians for the comfort of orphans. I mean, chances are it would have just been a stuffed animal being sold, and then I would have been confused as to why I experienced what I had. Funny how there's all these confirmations to my "hallucinations".
If you've never "hallucinated" a voice during sleep you have to be the only person on earth that hasn't.
Similarly, if you've never had a good feeling come over you you are one in a billion. Whether from a nature scene, a tactile feeling from a blanket, stick, brick or something else, a smell or some other sensation, we all get that.
So it's not odd at all, it's just that you attribute it to a god while others don't.The oddity wouldn't be hallucinating a voice while sleeping or having a good feeling. The oddity would be that whenever experiencing something out of the ordinary that is perceived as supernatural - a command or a jolting sensation, there turns out to be confirmation of the experience. The command to get up from bed and check the oven was needed for the first time in my life; the stuffed puppy handed to me in the secular setting of the bizarre that elicited an unexpected experience happened to have been anointed in the name of Jesus Christ. Without fail, there is always confirmation.
My mother had a similar experience. When I was a young child, she suddenly woke up in the night and went to my room for no particular reason. One of my soft toys had fallen onto my lamp (I used to sleep with the light one) and it was burning. What woke her up? There was no sound. It was God.
It's disturbing to me that there is no proof of a God, but I find I get a lot out of prayer, serenity. I cannot prove it but I recommend it. I really don't believe humans are just bodies...we have spirits too
But what is God? It's very generic. With our finite minds it should mean we can't know if God exists or not. But that is not the case. The Holy Father sent His Son who was human to testify to the truth. He came as one of us. That is what we can understand.
Were you there, when it happened 2000 years ago? Were you there on that very location with your own two eyes and ears experience God given Jesus up. When God already knew Jesus would be killed. If not, you only believe what others tell from an organized superstition
I would kill God, if God tried to kill my son, like in another story.Paul never met Jesus but he knew Him. Reading the gospels alone is not enough to know Jesus. A personal relationship with Him validates the gospels. That can only be experienced individually. You can't impart that experience to anyone else.
What other story about God killing are you referring to?God asked Abraham to kill his son Isaac
Thank goodness I'm not religious. or
Why not, God your the best, brillant idea, why would I question you, your the best, who needs a brain to think with.God who was going to offer His one and only begotten Son as a sacrifice for the sins of all people was testing the faith of Abraham, the one who was called "friend" of God. In faith, Abraham trusted the Lord and told his son that God himself would provide the sacrifice, which is exactly what God did then through the lamb he produced and later through the Lamb Jesus Christ. No harm was ever going to come to Isaac. God knew this and Abraham believed this because of his faith in and trust of God. Because of his faith and obedience, Abraham was made the "father" of the faithful - all those who live by faith in God.
In faith we are to give to God that which is most precious to us, just as Abraham was willing to give God that which was most precious to him, trusting that God would allow no harm to come to his son. God will never ask any one of us to harm our children (and not even Isaac was to be harmed, but was a test and a foreshadowing of Jesus Christ). We "give" God our children or anything else beloved to us by surrendering them to God and trusting that He will lift them up and keep them in all safety and bring about good in their lives and for all eternity.God claim to have killed a totals of 24,994,828 people, Not counting people who have killed, in the name God. Why trust him at anytime?
Why. do christian cry when someone dies, and then claims he/she is in a better place, I would be singing and dancing if I believed.
I can't imagine running out of ideas to kill anyone, still above any of this nonesenseGod is the author of life. He decides the number of our days. Each day is a gift and not an obligation to us. It's nonsensical to complain when our days come to an end, whether we had few or many. Humans murder. Because He is God, God determines the end of a life and it is not called murder but the end of our natural days.
Often we do sing and dance for those who have made it and are now with God. But we grieve our own loss - we don't get to see them anymore for awhile.
Hahaha, CP...that's the jovial christmas spirit.
I don't believe most of what is written in that Old Testament. If you look at the literal version, it is much different to what we have in our bible. In fact, it was an ET who ordered Abraham to kill his son.
My God gave me a brain to think with.My joyous spirit comes from the love, freedom and connecting the backbone with the brain.
People are basically good and even better when they use their backbone to free themselves from a delusional mind. How many really have the backbone to free their whole soul from being possessed or enslaved by a particular personal picky God with an adversary of a particular Satan or demon around every corner. Once your have sold that delusion by our mastering pretending to be your servant. Then you are bought and sold yourself into slavery, through Banker/Government debt prison as our debt will never be paid in your lifetime. Welcome to your own choice of hell on earth. The only true enslavement is believing bs what other tell you and not being able to confront every problem at it’s source in your own mindWhat does this have to do with the topic and question of this thread?
Do you click the wrong topic link?
GAMy brother is a Pastor; I question his faith, being a very curious person. I acknowledge Religion based on fear and faith on earth, yet do not understand it’s means to an End. Don’t even understand why atheist give so much time and attention to it. My personal artist profession is based on pleasing and loving the world. Have no fear of questions or fears of hell or great rewards for blind faith .
Would we be better off from harm and bigotry, if we abolish Government and Religion? Or just shrink both to a level of their over dominates and their debt enslavement styles forever.
Just words here,… no sticks, stones or nukes to punish anyone.
Just because a person cannot prove your God Yahweh exist among the other millions of Gods claims. It does not make him real or your faith real among the 99% unknown facts, yet to be discovered about the world, let alone the Universe and beyond.
No insecurity here and no regrets unless I stop loving the world anymore in the future.But, but, but....
You answered a question about relevance with another comment that has nothing to do with the OP.
Did you have a response for the question: "What is wrong with a life of faith?" Within the context of an explanation for the virulent attacks against the life of faith of a believer?
GAChristian hatred of atheists is the highest of any other group in American. Their hatred for Atheists is greater than against rapist. Who is in hell “couples who live together" “sex before marriage”, Adultery, homosexuality, porn xxx and abortionist. When the vast majority of people are swimming in the lake of fire over Fornication. Do they have enough room for rapist and atheist? Most Sex is natural and greatest pleasure in my world. Is there enough room in your Hot night club for me.
There is your first problem, you’re against things, I’m not. People can be like a trees, except trees can live 1000’s of years longer and do not fight with their own branches? Why would the tree be against the fungus that cools the tree’s roots or protects it from diseases? Fungus is like Religion or Government. BUT, when the fungus is allowed to dominate the tree, it will choke and kill the tree and beyond, kill the forest. Both are too dominate, today.
How much damage can the 2% population Atheist do to the 33% Christian population? How can atheist bullies-bully the ultimate bully God? Atheist sometimes gives me a headache yet never a day-to-day struggles in my life, not like Christian do.
Both sides cannot prove God existence, so give me the trees that do not fight with their own branches. I have faith in up-down/ sideways/ not so bad/ not so good nature of things. Do not have any faith in Heaven or Hell or smiling down on hell from heaven, it’s just too insane a concept for me.
I’m a non-believers and would not condemn your faith, just don’t understand it.
How many nonsensical answers can be given to my questions?You offer a lot to digest, almost all of which I disagree with, but at least you are on topic now.
You said:
"Christian hatred of atheists is the highest of any other group in American. Their hatred for Atheists is greater than against rapist."
"Atheist sometimes gives me a headache yet never a day-to-day struggles in my life, not like Christian do."
That certainly has not been my experience. And I have been around long enough to be exposed to quite a few Christians. I am puzzled that your life travels have brought you into contact with so many hateful Christians. Care to expound on why you are so sure that Christan's hate Atheists more than rapists? And how it is that you have day-to-day struggles with Christians that upset you?
"There is your first problem, you’re against things, I’m not. "
What is it that you think I am against? I am pretty sure I know what my "first" problem is, and I don't think it is that I am against something.
"I’m a non-believers and would not condemn your faith, just don’t understand it."
I think you may have jumped to an incorrect conclusion. Scroll back a few messages and I bet you will spot your error.
GA
I love the world first.
You love Yahweh- first, Let’s count the ways how Yahweh hates anyone who does not love him first
Christians has been more of a day-to-day struggles in my life, My brother did not speck to me because I’m not Christian. The last 3 girlfriends (in a row) quite me because I was not Christian. Three houses I was building were cancelled because I was not Catholic. I accept Christians yet they do not accept my Artistic green lifestyle without religion. They care more about how people are having sex and war.
The Atheist Menace: Worse Than Rapists, a New Study Shows at University of BC and Oregon
Study: Atheists distrusted as much as rapists - USA Today
• Discrimination against atheists - Wikipedia, the free ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists
States found that believers distrust atheists as much as they distrust rapists. ... A 2009 survey showed that atheists are the most hated demographic group in ..
I would disapprove if my child wanted to marry a member of this group….
Atheist: 47.6%
Muslim: 33.5%
African-American 27.2%
Asian-Americans: 18.5%
Hispanics: 18.5%
Jews: 11.8%
Conservative Christians: 6.9%
Whites: 2.3%
- See more at: http://newsjunkiepost.com/2009/09/19/re … CGS2r.dpuf
You are saying people are basically good? By good, do you mean because they are law abiding? How many people would be good if the the law didn't exist? If there were no repercussions for beating up others, how may men would refrain? We are born with a corrupt nature. There is goodness in us but nastiness exists in all of us. That is enough to contribute to the power of evil in the world. There's a difference between religious delusional minds and Christ-committed minds. It scares me how one can't reason with many religious people. They often stick to their religion in case they go to hell. That is delusional thinking. That's enslavement but if you want to be with God because you truly love Him then that is not delusional. It is a relationship that is free of the fear of hell. You don't worship God out of obligation but out of love.
You will think this is brain-washed talk and that I'm under coercion. I can't convince you otherwise but I know what I'm talking about.
Did Jesus ever enslave those when He was on earth? Did He behave like the government and enslave the masses? Did He force anyone to worship Him? That's dictatorship. A dictator would never allow anyone to choose who they serve.
It is hard to understand how one may know a true Christian, when they believe not, the Christian God...
It is also hard to understand how one may say, "You cannot prove your God, so shut up from my ears." And in the same breath, "push" their own NONbelief. As if...
Who can know what truth is??? We bounce around perpetually, about it, or we anchor... no other options.
I have peace, and all my storm clouds have silver linings; serenity beyond belief. True Christian?
Nevermind...Closest thing to god I've come across is through imagination. According to most scientists and most people, humans have existed for over 200,000 years. Meaning humans existed without God for 90% to 99% of their time on earth.
Long, long time after we communicated by art and grunting The smartest man in the cave connected the system of the stars in the universe with the natural causes of death on earth and imagine himself closest person to god or spirited by god based on peoples fears. When other tribes grunted differently and dressed different. Then Military war started and later, religion was born.
Today, it’s more about Gods, Guns and Gays, How many really are CONCERN about our health and nature’s health. Too many fear the great unknown afterlife still, than Life itself.You believe the guesses and allow them to outweigh. No problem for anyone but they who are wrong.
We have no idea how long life on earth has been sustained. We may guess, but we've done it a long time. Not even Science agrees...
I and many others, have chosen to anchor in the unchanging word of God. It works for us.
Now for the man with 50-60 years of life, there is NOTHING sure. I wouldn't trust it... but that's just me.
Your largely guessing your God is the creator of the Universe. I learn very little about bio organism and natural earth's history from the dark ages from men who dance with sheep and JC who can't write his own material.
I would rather come closer to the truths about world and stars from educated professionals scientist, who likely today, lived three times longer than land of the sheep.Are you referring to Jesus as "JC"? How do you expect Jesus to have preserved any thing He may have written? Carry it around with it and watch it disintegrate?
Darwin recorded through his own words, and he has even more followers with Evolution than Jesus has with Christians around the world. Who ever recorded Jesus words created the world's worse numerous of wrong translations ever.
There is more users of marijuana than Christians,
FREEDOM FROM DELUSION. A delusion held by one person is a mental illness, held by a few is a cult, held by many is a religion.As Jesus put it: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Matthew 7:13-14
I fly by the seat of my pants, "Castlepaloma -
I can fly anywhere, Man!
I grow my hair, Man! and...
I've been everywhere, Man
What are narrow roads and gates, Man!
I don't even care Man.
That's not the question. I'm asking you how you expected Jesus to preserve whatever writing He made and where He kept it?
Darwin did not exist 2000 years ago so the follower Jesus has had since then by far exceeds Darwin's following. It was much easier for Darwin to preserve his writings, since publications existed to print his books.
And your point about more users of marijuana being Christian? There is a huge Christian population.The Bible was written over a span of 1500 years, by 40 authors. Unlike other religious writings, The first newpaper in America was punished by Benjamin Franklin he quoted " I only believe Believe none of what you hear, and only half of what you see.”
Your asking people to believe what was written from thousands of years ago and from hundreds of hand me downs of wild and crazy stories vs. from your own first hand experience in life.
Good luck luck with thatI'm not asking anyone to believe anything. I'm just telling you how I came to my conclusion.
Funny. I can agree 95% of time about everything in the world. Yet most people in the world would not agree on giving up their entire soul to your personal God.
That means you have very little in common to share with the world and your thinking would be considered uncommon or not good sense way of thinking.
Would it not?Yes, it's too hard for most to dedicate their entire lives to God. It means self denial and we people have this innate nature to have big egos.
I have things in common with the world like being human with the capacity to feel human emotions like love. I go through daily struggles and joys just like everybody else. But I will admit that many don't understand me because they don't think it's the done thing to do to work only for God. People think we are here to be high fliers. To reach for the sky and be successful. It's not what Jesus was. Many Christians fail to understand that.
Even if truth is in the minority of one, it is still the truth.
I can only speak for myself. My relationship with my Creator has given me a grounding; a surety of purpose in life. In becoming a Christian I gave all the fears, crap, and excess baggage I'd been carting around with me for 50 yrs. to the Lord and he took the fear and uncertainty out of my life. Without that fear I now look at the world through new eyes. The things that used to weigh me down and make my life one continuous train wreck are now gone. For the first time since I was a small child I am truly happy with this life-and have hope for the next. Yet for some strange reason this really seems to piss off atheists-I feel sorry for them. So---believe or don't, that's between you and the universe; I'll walk towards the light.
Bob, keep going on your own personal journey. Believe what you want to believe. If that lifts your life in a way that nothing has before, then great..... your choice is respected.
It only "pisses me off" when you presume that your life and your choices somehow are supposed to place you in a superior position with your "God" while I must bow and scrape because I am a naughty boy.
Your beliefs and your understanding of life are not superior to mine, just different. And your "God" made this world full of diversity, so let's celebrate that fact, shall we?Ah, we're all sinners, don't ya' know. It's ok--no really, it is. Anyone who tells you different needs to open that book of their's and read it again. We will all get to where ever it is we are going one way or another-like it or no. I see my path lit before me. As long as we all leave this place better than we found it...
The bible is not for everyone, if it worked for you, happy for you, if it makes you happier., FOR whatever works.
The next step will be, can the bible stand up to "Live and Let live for Everyone" and "unconditional love"?As Castlepaloma has said, yes, that's fine for you to believe whatever you wish, whatever inspires you.... and you can apply as much passion to it as you like.
But it's the "sinner" bit that turns me right away from the christian religion and any other religion that rules by fear and guilt. The fear and guilt has been built up in you, Bob, by the human mind that is in your head and the heads of countless others. Believe that "God" drove the thinking if you like. But it's human guilt; nothing to do with "God."
I am not leaving myself open to perpetrate all and any bad deeds that I wish. For a start, there are sets of moral and rules and codes of conduct for each and every community/social group. If I break those rules there are punishments that go with them. Some individuals do need the sense that a "god out there" is watching over them. If it were left at that, I would have no argument. However, other humans sit in authority at the head of the church and use the bullying, lynch-mob tactics of the masses to do their bidding for them.
I refuse to be part of that.You say, "it's the 'sinner' bit that turns me right away from the christian religion and any other religion that rules by fear and guilt." Yet he was telling you that since coming to know the Lord, his fears have disappeared!
’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear, And grace my fears relieved... (Amazing Grace) We are first convicted by the Spirit of our sin, and this initially brings about fear and guilt/sorrow. Yet then our relationship with the Lord brings about unmatched peace and freedom from fear and guilt that far exceeds anything experienced without the Lord.
"There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)You are still trying to convince me and convert me CAT. Stop it! You are insulting me by your presmptions that what you believe is best for me. Simply honour my choice. That is all. Unconditionally.
You do this consistently and to others. Stop it! Do you not understand?
Or is it simply you own sense of being right?It's certainly not my intent to insult you. But yes, I believe the truth is best for all, and yes, I believe Jesus Christ himself is Truth. I am nothing but a messenger, so what reason would I have for talking down to you? It is only through His mercy, and not through my own merit, that I belong to Him and share the truth He's revealed. It didn't originate with me and it isn't my own message, but His message. And when you reject it, it isn't me you reject, but the One whose message and truth it is.
I won't stop speaking truth here or anywhere. But I will honor your choice and decision at this time.
No doubt, after my last rant, you or someone is going to say I have read too much into your quotes. Maybe I have, but inherent in your responses to me is the presumption that you have "got it right," and christendom has got it right, and anything else is wrong.
So, go your own way CAT.. once again we have a brick wall.You are right that inherent in my responses is a definitive "right" and an absolute truth that is not open to debate - Jesus Christ is the Way, the truth and the life. But it isn't me who's right, it's Him.
As you wish, Jonny, we can end our discussion here. Take care.
Well, maybe this response is more on target, (re: the topic's question), than it first appears.
You response seems to address a false, (as you read it), claim of superiority in "Bob's" comment.
I reread it to be sure, but I did not see a "superior" anything in it. It seemed to describe a choice that worked for him. So where did the issue of "superiority" come from? Was it a perception that upset you?
GAI may be wrong, but in my experience, both personally and listening to others, that sense of "being superior" is always there in the evangelizing christian's mind.
Well, I suppose you could be, and perhaps your experience has been shaped by the environment of your life.
I have seen the type you speak of - in all areas of life. But they are not the norm among my experiences. That was why I questioned the "superiority" label on a comment that did not seem to say anything of the sort. If it wasn't there, but you perceived it, then you drew that perception from your past experiences, (as you said).
I think most folks form their perceptions of things starting with the color of what they think they see, (or hear, or feel, or think), shaped by their perception of how it relates to them.
GAThere is an over dominate amount of Christians in North America. Still, I’m no better or worse than anyone including toward Christians. I think everyone is god, yet that would not coincide with an organized superstition.
Yahweh is one and only super nature being , All Knowing and All Powerful. Yet their God pays no taxes and their God is in need of money all the time.
Here is a way to raise money, For Jesus helps the poor and sick, and that’s a very good thing. As an artist, we are the poorest paid profession in the nations. Yahweh son could help me, and I help him.
We Could create a Jesus image sculpture contest and many of the rich churches from around the world could sponsor it. The most difficult part would be finding judges who have witness Jesus. Is Jesus black, or Jewish Or white with blue eyes , oh oh!!! their looking for a fight.
So a thread that started criticizing dogmatic atheism ends with its equal and opposite force. Where there is one there will always be the other.
I think you are partly right. I did start the thread with a biased question. But it was still a sincere question.
I think I got an inkling of an answer. And as you pointed out - from the roots, (dogma as you put it), of both sides of the question.
My thoughts are that some, (many? most? only the few most vocal ones?) atheists may feel either self-conscious and unsure of their convictions, (as in afraid they may be wrong), or they may just feel ticked off at the "superior" attitude of the proselytizers.
I am left with the opinion that it is the atheists, (again, the most vocal ones), that are the most vehement and strident in their opposition. Which to my way of thinking indicates a lack of confidence and surety in and of their position.
As for the most devout believers, I envy their serenity, but in the case of the ones, (also the most vocal ones), that proclaim a "holier than thou" righteousness - they tick me off too.
To finish this thread, I am left with the impression, (from a general perception of this and other religious threads on HP), that it is the atheists that are more obstreperously condemning of the two beliefs.
Just sayin'
GA
Thank goodness I do not belong to any one group or even better a onesided group.
As always, I find it remarkable these debates continue over the perspective -and false perception of Faith in relation to Belief. One can believe/disbelieve in practically anything, which makes associating it with Faith problematic.
Secondly, there can never be such a thing as "my faith", "your faith", "the faith" because again these are pseudonyms within the construct of belief and can therefore become personal 'gods' of sorts; become personal interpretations.
Even the very text used to support the ideology of believing makes the distinction, and even offers up a definition of Faith versus Belief.
Faith, by its very nature is an ever constant action of creation, not a leaning post in front of the Church In The Wildwoods. By faith, the worlds were framed by the ohm/ ruach / pneuma of Creator, so that the uncreated (invisible) took form and became created/creation (visible). The most interesting element of this definition is that this precise/exact power/force was breathed directly into the human being. Which means, the energy/action (and the abilities of said action) --not just the belief in the energy/action-- was genetically added to humans. Yet, for generations it seems this has been diluted to a barbaric ideology of mine v. yours because of the mind-game called Reason.
Sigh. I suppose it better for one to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster -or hang an stone around ones neck, than quench what remains of the Spirit, if this what said ability has come to: "my belief is better than your disbelief" and vis-a-vis...
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