Josh Duggar, of 19 and Counting fame, it has surfaced admitted to/be charged with previously (as in historically) with molesting 5 underage girls - 4 of whom were his sisters, and one a neighbour girl. He has stepped down from his job at an Anti-LGBT charity/cause/thingy.
His parents were aware of the offending and sent him away years ago. His mother, whilst famous for having an enourmous tribe of children, is also known for her participation in a robo-call around the time of SB 1040 I think in relation to transgender people in bathrooms - calling transgender people child predators (whilst all the while have one under her roof for many many years).Thousands have come to his defence, saying it was a mistake, and God has forgiven him.
This is a man who molested FIVE children (siblings even), and a person who feels, and lectures that LGBT people are eternally damned, and child molestors solely because of their sexual orientation or gender identity. All the while having a HUGE skeleton in his closet. He also has children of his own now...
Why are people defending him? He made a living demonising the gay population - most of whom have no interest in children for sexual needs (I say most because I am not stupid - there are child predators in every walk of life unfortunately....but MOST are not), condemning them for eternity for who they love in their ADULT relationships (who God made them to be IMHO) Yet, he commits a HEINOUS crime, and all it takes is a prayer or three and he's forgiven?
Can someone make sense of this for me?
What he did was egregious. He should have been imprisoned for this act. He is a child molester pure and simple. However, his parents covered for him. This is a family that is totally dysfunctional beyond belief. There was talk about his molesting underage girls a while back.
This may not be the only skeleton in the Duggar family closet. He also has four children including daughters. This man is dangerous. He is crying now because he was caught and the family "wholesome, pure, Christian" image has been tarnished. He KNEW exactly what he was doing to those poor innocent children. I did a similar forum post on this "person".
The law of Karma or "reaping and sowing" (Galatians 6:8-9)
"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting"
and the fact that "there is nothing new under the sun" (Ecclesiastes 1:9) tells us reincarnation is Biblical. For Josh Duggar to be forgiven means he has or shall incarnated as each of those molested children while another life-force is in the body he did it to them in.
That also suggest every tree we cut down for any reason we were those trees during different incarnations, the grass we cut, weeds we pulled up, the seeds Monsanto GMed the people working for that corporation were those seeds, insects we killed, mice killed and everything we may have done in our present, past or future bodies will be done or we will do for another in those bodies. That is what the phrase "whatsoever man sow so shall he also reap" means.
Thanks for stepping in, The0Nature boy! Seeing the big picture helps us deal with the smaller.
and Jesus would ask, do none of you have skeletons?
...and did Josh Duggar really think his past would not be dredged up?
It would have been different if he had focused on the issue of child molestation, admitted his mistakes, and offered a solution to the problems of early sexualization/ acting it out on children, siblings even.
Instead, he took a self-righteous, judgmental platform against others. A platform which was never used against him. Until now. Here is his return of Karma.
In attempt to discern accurately, I would say it is an issue of extreme egotism. That it was never dealt with properly, is apparent.
It always comes back around.
And it is a good thing... because then one has the opportunity to confront one's shortcomings realistically.
That is how so many people escape man's observing them, they make great laws against things, preach against things and in secret is doing the same things. The names of those caught doing what they opposed are to numerous to name all of but man are finally waking ut to that so they are becoming exposed.
Speaking of karma, here is something strange:
The number priests being trained here in America, due to shame and embarrassment for their sinful actions against young boys, has dwindled. We need to know the whys of their behavior, but we do not. Some say it is because they are not allowed to marry and have a normal sex life with a wife they could love. Or perhaps they do not truly feel/perceive God's love. Anyway, since there are fewer men willing to become priests here, Catholic churches import Catholic priests from other countries. Recently, I wandered into a couple of Catholic churches and to my great thrill, I discovered priests from India in two different churches! Through attending their services, I found there that their fervor was real, comprehension of Spirit, profound and their enthusiasm, absolutely infectious.
Thank goodness for these Catholic priests from India!
It is a fact that India has a long tradition of devotion to God. It is becoming less as they become more materialistic. But, I believe India will always be a place of deep devotion to Spirit. To bring that devotion to the West is a very good thing, in my opinion.
Maybe Josh will search deeper to find devotion to true spiritual reality within and without.
There is always hope. And his children will benefit. I also believe that true love and children and can change a man's heart.
And focusing with body heart mind and soul is enough,
no preaching required.
Jesus came to reveal God's power to forgive.
God and Jesus give us forgiveness and unconditional love.
Where would be be without it?
The reality about this nation is she is "Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth" of revelation, the nation where all the corruption you find in any nation of the Bible is still being manifested. That is why she is the first nation to be destroyed before the rest of the world as the symbolism of Daniel 2 and Revelation 17 & 18 suggests.
Here, the unspoken law is "do as I say and not as I do" in every form of schooling from home training -- for the most parts -- to religion and government while in India most teachers have always tended to live what they taught. Today their schooling is becoming more westernized which means teaching segregation of every kind which is why we hear of so much western like corruption happening there.
The difference with India and the US primarily, with some other European nations following, is the people of India who claim to be spiritual are not doing it for an easy way to earn a money like here, most of them actually believe in what they are doing. When I was a preacher, during my gestating before my "new birth", I found many were only preachers for the easy way of earning a living, they weren't doing it because they believed in what they were teaching. That's the difference between India and the US.
It's all part of the basis of the religion, vicarious redemption, pushing your sin onto an innocent man so that you can be forgiven.
So Duggar can easily get forgiven and get into heaven despite what he did. And someone who lived a good moral life can go to hell simply for not pushing their sin onto Jesus. This is one of the reasons why I can't believe Christians when they say they love Jesus, they only "love" him because he's taking responsibility for the evil and corruption that they believe all human beings have. If Christians truly loved Jesus and had a personal relationship wouldn't they want to take their responsibility on themselves?
As a non-Christian I can't understand why anyone would defend him, even back when I was a Christian I would have seen him as a traitor of everything he was meant to stand for (the salt of the world). And the irony that Christians who are against gay rights continuously end up being exposed as being self-hating closeted homosexuals or having some other form of skeleton in the closet cannot be overstated.
He may not have the name Duggar on his or her body but the life-force will eventually be raptured to the next plane.
"Hell fire" is is the burning desires of the flesh which can never be satisfies so long as one has the carnal mind and this material world will always have a carnal mindset. No life-forces are lost, they only continue reincarnating until every material sowing has been reaped by the life-force in the body upon whom the sowing was sown.
Apparently him being a teen when he did it somehow makes his f*ck up not as bad. Oh and god, cant forget that one.
Just out of curiosity, off the top of anyones head are there any famous/well known atheists that have had their skeletons yanked out of the closet that blatantly contradict everything they stand for?
As bad as the situations are, I find it a rather funny coincidence that most of the time when you hear stories like this, the person is a bible thumper...
Ha! Unless you're gay, then you're on yr own.
Child molestor? forgiven! Murderer but asked for forgiveness? forgiven. Bigot with huge skeletons in closet? Forgiven!
Gay, lesbian, bi or trans? Off to hell with you!
Then why mention God and what He forgives in when you don't believe in God's will anyways? Don't contradict yourself.
It doesn't matter what God feels, it matters what you feel based on deep analysis and reason. That's all, jlpark. God has nothing to do with the matter.
Understand yourself why, don't involve God into any of this. You won't find ANY answers by doing so. I won't answer to your "and all it takes is a prayer or three and he's forgiven?" You figure it out.
But there's a bias happening right now. Mainly because you're gay. Conversely, this guy Josh, is bashing gays and supports child molestation.
I'll ask you the questions you SHOULD be asking yourself: Why does he believe child molesting is "better" than being gay? What does he see in child molesting that he doesn't see in homosexuality? Why do YOU personally think being LGBT is okay and child molesting is worse?
Those kinds of questions will further your knowledge to realize your issues.
Thanks for that Phil. I have answered your questions for myself, and I will acknowledge that I am biased - but MOSTLY because I am a parent. Yes, I'm gay, and to be labelled in general as child predators by an ACTUAL child predator to demonise us, condemn us to Hell etc is annoying (in the least), and hypocritical - it's the children I feel for.
I brought God into it - because Josh and those who support him feel that God has forgiven him. Harming a child is, and should be, unforgivable. Is it not in the Bible that if one causes a child to turn from God (and molestation can cause those affected to at least question the very existence of God if He can let something like that happen to them), then they may as well have put a rope around them with a heavy stone attached and bathe in the nearest lake? (paraphrasing as I can't remember the verse). It confused me that someone like myself is apparently 'unforgivable' (unless we denouce who we are as a person), but meh, child molestation, not an unforgivable sin.
I understand why I think what I do about what he has done, and those who support him...and it's mostly (it would be false to say that my sexual orientation doesn't come into it just a wee bit - but it's not the main bit) because of the children. Innocent victims that no one is thinking of.
But thanks for putting it in a way that made me think a bit further about it.
jlpark - correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you were studying to become a Christian minister at one time. If so, you no doubt are aware that Christianity became the largest and most widespread religion in the world through bullying tactics. I'm from America; the natives here were brutally slaughtered, and the survivors were told to forgive and to resort only to non-violent protest. Those who expressed, or even admitted to, their perfectly justifiable rage were threatened with eternal hell in the next life.
Native Americans originally tended to be very family and community oriented societies; the Cherokees, when they married, planned for 7 generations into the future. If someone was homosexual, the tribe made arrangements for each party in the couple to play various roles. In old Hawaii, unmarried homosexuals helped take care of children and the elderly. (I live in Hawaii, and see a lot of similarities between them and Native Americans on the Mainland.) Though all societies are sexist, Native Americans were less so than most. Christianity teaches that humans dominate nature; Native Americans see themselves as part of nature's web, and therefore treat it with the utmost respect.
Nowadays, reservations are rife with child molestation and rape. This is because the Native Americans who remain have been stripped of their cultures. But at least they're Christians...
Yoleen, the 'studying to be a minister' would be Julie (JMcFarland) - not I.
However, I do know of the trouble caused when a nations first people are colonised by another, with it's own religions, culture etc - my country has a fairly recent (in the scheme of things) colonisation by white people (about 175yrs ago even), in ways that could be very much frowned upon.
I quite like the Native American's way of thinking re: family and community orientated thinking, and the part of nature's web. I feel saddened for what has become of them in reservations where their unique culture has not be respected, nor their religion.
Certainly not I.
I guess you could do pretty much anything and say "oops, sorry God!" and all God cares about is that you apologized and acknowledged that you screwed up. Meanwhile, an atheist whose biggest sin was not paying a parking ticket burns in hell. Sounds like some awesome logic God is using!
I'm inclined to try to understand why everyone does the things they do, even the horrific things, and the totally backwards environment Josh Duggar was raised in contributed to this horrible thing, I'm positive. I just can't find it in me to forgive someone who molested multiple girls and then went on to condemn gay people for their sexuality (which harms no one). It's pure filth and the whole situation makes me incredibly angry.
PS It is important to deal with egotism and human frailties realistically when people are young.
To tackle with tough love is one thing, to enable with over-leniency is another.
This is one of the main reasons I can not grasp heaven or a god. No god would forgive that type of thing and then place that molester in heaven where his victims would be. Makes no sense. Basically implies mess up as much as you (rape, molest, murder) want as long as you eventually really want forgiveness and believe. I have no desire to spend eternity in the same place as my abuser, I am sure others wouldn't either and really if the god chose to take in nasty perverts I wouldn't want anything to do with him/her/it.
Peeples - thank you for putting into words what I was feeling. I felt I was clear was to why I believe (or don't...) the way I do, but this incident just made it all clearer.
Why don't we get them all, line them up and shoot every single one of them. While we are at it, lets murder all the murderers, thieves, liars and cheats. Why stop there? Why not just eliminate every single person who has ever made a mistake? That way only those who are always right will be left.
The logic of placing a thief and a murderer as the same is beyond backwards! Murdering someone isn't just a mistake. Raping a child is not just a mistake. Molesting someone is NOT just a mistake. All "sin" is NOT equal.
You mentioned sin, I did not. The Bible says, "The wages of sin is death." Let's just kill them all and get it over with. Of course, in reality, the one who is sinless should start the rest of us off.
I never implied I was "sinless", but can you really say YOU believe a rapist is equal to a thief?
How can anyone imply they are not equal? Both are meant to destroy. Anyway, I have watched this thread for nearly a week now. It is getting tiresome and old.
Gosh, well I'd much prefer someone 'destroy' me by stealing $20 from my purse than destroy me by raping me.
It is absolutely and ridiculously offensive to victims of severe crimes to have all 'sins' treated as equal.
Ok I got it. 20 dollars, is OK to steal. I am going to stop following this thread. Have a good day.
Weird how you would leave with a rather pitiful straw man hanging about.
Sometimes it's best for people to just stop talking. I wonder if a thief stole $20 from him and a pedophile raped his daughter if he'd feel the same way. Just makes no sense how anyone can rationally believe they are even similar. Glad I don't have to worry about going to heaven with all those rapists and molesters.
Basically its like saying a kid who steals a chocolate bar from the dollar store should be punished to the same extent as someone who shoots up a school or rapes kids left and right.
All 3 are bad, but I'd rather go bankrupt from missing chocolate bars than die or get raped by some lunatic
Well you have to consider the severity of both examples. You're biased by making it seem your principle is worse because of the example whereas 20$ is nothing to steal basically. how about if the cost of theft was as valuable as the cost of rape. Then what ? Equal your examples or don't make them at all in order to improve your argument.
I'm implying that if you were to steal like 5000$ instead of a mere 20$.
Stealing millions is not even equal to rape! Money can be replaced, but what a rape victim loses can never be replaced. Changing the amount of money does not change the act.
There are just as many quotes in the bible that support different levels of sin as there are ones that say it's all the same. Another flawed issue with the bible.
What Josh Duggar did wasn't just a sin; it was a crime. While sins might be forgiven, crimes require punishment.
In the case of juvenile sex offenders, what is required is reporting, punishment, treatment, supervision and, above all, protecting all children from any contact with the abuser. In the case of Josh Duggar, he was a repeat offender, assaulting at least five children (one was only five years old), and he perpetrated multiple assaults over the period of one year. After the first time he was caught and 'reprimanded' by his parents, he repeated his behavior.
I'm not saying it's okay, but there are varying degrees of harm.
The effect of someone stealing $20 from me is very short-term and probably doesn't change my life. We just had someone break into our car and steal a bunch of stuff from the console and it sucked, but that causes me WAY less personal harm than (hypothetically) my brother molesting me when I was a child.
I truly don't understand why that's hard to grasp.
That's still a pretty easy decision.
Money is money. Stuff is stuff. What you suffer and lose when someone rapes you just can't be compared.
And lets all be honest, no one would be defending him if he was a non white liberal. It amazes me how many people will support a person, no matter how bad their actions are, just because they share beliefs. If George Takei (my equivalent, an awesome liberal I agree with politically) molested a bunch of kids I would stop liking him immediately!!
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