Witnessing

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   sandra rinckposted 16 years ago

   I am "witnessing" the prophecy unfold right now.  Seeing for myself what evidently was already said will happen.  And so it does... would you look at that.
   
   Really, I need to bust out my popcorn again but well the current economic situation has really gotten in the way of lifes simple pleasures. 
   
   I guess some tap water will do.   Please continue, I never knew witnessing could be entertaining.  It's like reading a really good book and watching it on the big screen. 
   
   

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   fierycjposted 16 years ago

   Big ups to all witnesses wherever they may be; especially those having to dodge bullets and missiles, all for the love of Zion. One love to all y'all - you rule, both in the kingdom of men... and of angels...

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   Lady Guinevereposted 16 years ago

   Does one have to read and beleive the Bible to believe in God?  Is that a pre-requisite?  If someone beleives is Jesus but doesn't believe in the current trendy Bible is that wrong?  Is that a pre-requisite to see Jesus and to hear him?  Are those who do beleive those things and are taught that it is only way--do they have the right to judge others who don't>  Are they our judge and jury? Is history and archealogical finds or not finds wrong?  Is the First written codexes wrong?  What makes this world any better than when Jesus was around?  Why can't anyone answer my questions?  Do you not know?
   
   I saw and spoke with Jesus on many occasions, but that doesn't cut it.........why?
   
   Those who call themselves Christians are not going my Christ, but by doctrne and anyone else to thinks or sees it different are called Un-believers, but I think it is the Christians who are the un-believers.

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   gamergirlposted 16 years ago

   What a terrible, horrible, deceitful process proxy baptism is.
   
   If a person is not baptized while living, they have exercised their free will, it's not like baptism is a new process or anything.
   
   Let the choices of man account for his compensation upon death.
   
   Mormons are weird.

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      Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      Must admit I have never heard of this. Not sure it is any weirder than eating the flesh of a dead person.
      
      Although - when you say "proxy" baptism - does that mean some one offers themselves up, because one of my next questions was going to be how they get permission to dig all these dead people up. Very messy I would have thought.

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   gamergirlposted 16 years ago

   Here's what's up, Mark.
   
   Mormon priests baptize deceased people via a living person.  It's *supposed* to be a relative or direct descendant. 
   
   That's all.  A living person is baptised, but with a turn of phrase the priest doing the baptism transfers the baptism like it's a $20 in the bank to someone who is dead, may not even have been a Mormon, whose soul has moved on to whatever waits for us when we die.
   
   It's presumption on the part of the relatives, and a sick twisted way to "gain souls for God."

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      Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      Well, even if I believed in the christian version of an afterlife - I don't see how that could work.  At least I now know why the "normal," christians think mormons are a cult. I thought it was the underpants and the annoying practice of door to door belief pushing.

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         gamergirlposted 16 years agoin reply to this

         Check out celestial marriage sometime, too.  It's definitely a read worth sitting through.

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            Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

            Golly gosh. I hardly know what to say. Not often I find myself completely dumbfounded, and I thought I had a winner with baptizing dead people. Although it does rather explain why I found Utah to be such an odd place.
            
            I hardly know where to start, but give me a few moments to consider and I will come up with something.

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   \Brenda Scullyposted 16 years ago

   lovely   lovely man

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   Vladimir Uhriposted 16 years ago

   I believe that baptism is public witnessing what happened to you inside. You proclaiming death and resurrection in the symbol of dipping. It is witness to God, world, angels, devil, yourself what happen to you in receiving new life. Since we do not know exactly why first Christians baptized for the death, this subject should be leave alone. We may wait for father revelation.
   I thought we are talking here about effective witnessing and not parade of atheistic unproved matters.

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      Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      Well, the conversation has moved on from that as one of our members witnessed to that fact that baptizing the dead achieves something. We were also talking about how offensive it is to non-believers when a stranger tells them they are a fool for not believing in their god and proceeds to witness to the glory of a dead person who did not exist.
      
      Although - you seem to think you have somehow proven something about your beliefs. I am keen to learn your definition of the word "proof."

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      gamergirlposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      How is the Mormon practice of proxy baptism an "atheistic unproved matter?"

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   Onusonusposted 16 years ago

   I'm just going to add another thing, the baptism is not complete without the consent of the person it is being done for so it takes a corolation between that person and that of the one who performed it.

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      Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      So - just as a matter of interest - how do you get this consent from a dead person?

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         Inspirepubposted 16 years agoin reply to this

         I am sure that if someone is in Hell due to having died without being baptised, you can take their consent as a given, Mark. If course they want to go to Heaven instead ...
         
         Jenny

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         Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this

         I don't, the dead person on the other side of the veil either accepts it or rejects it after it is done, but usually they will accept it, as their spirits have been known to be present at such occasions. And to answer your question, I did not offer it to provoke you; my belief of the ordinance and the reasoning thereof is stated in 1 Corinthians 15:29, because I believe in the resurection.

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            Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

            So - you have some statistics? Usually they accept it?
            
            Just as another matter of interest - how many dead people have told you that they reject it?
            
            What is your strike rate? Like 10:1 in favor of accepting?

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               Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this

               I've never felt that they have rejected my services, not based on any particular performance evaluation however last week I dunked a guy who was much larger than me and as he popped back up I somehow managed to get sucked right under the water. The witnesses made me do it over. For my own experiances I have had communicated several resounding concurences from the other side. But there are a few people who make record of these instances, that work in the Temple. they assert that it happens quite a lot.

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                  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                  So, the dead people speak to you and they usually tell you they are happy with what you have done?

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                     Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                     Basically. What youv'e never talked to dead people?

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                        Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                        I have talked to dead people. But I have never had them talk to me.
                        
                        See the difference?

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                           Onusonusposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                           

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   Eaglekiwiposted 16 years ago

   When my mother died we (me and my three sisters) were approached by the Mormon elders offering us a chance to be baptised ( by proxy) for our mother.
   I was 13 yrs old at the time.
   We attended youth activities with our local L.D.S Church and to be fair they did help us as a family ( when other churches didnt) when Mums death rocked our household, but that teaching ,along with several others, was the red light for sure!
   
   I am not 13 yrs old anymore!! , and the Mormon church, or Joseph Smith does not control my destiny.

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    megs78posted 16 years ago

    I sincerely believe that 'witnessing' is best done by actions, not words.  Live what you believe and others will see the beauty of your belief and that may be all it takes for them to 'want' what you have.
    
    Preaching is good for church for those who have gone to church to hear the preaching. 
    
    Set an example and that will be your witness.  (of course, if someone asks, by all means, witness to them, but not in a condescending, know-it-all way!  People hate that!  I know I do.)

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    Lady_Eposted 16 years ago

    Like you said, its become more difficult. A situation happened in London some months ago whereby a Social Worker talked to the sick person he was caring for about God and asked the person if she would like to be prayed for?  What did she do?  She reported the poor guy and He got suspended. Was all over the news.
    
    Another incident. A man was witnessing on the Train. Someone reported him and the train stopped. The London Underground staff asked him to get off the Train or stop witnessing otherwise the train wouldn't move. Some people were angry, some people stood by him. Eventually, he kept quiet and the train moved. As I got off the train, I patted him on the back and told him how brave he was.
    
    So to answer your question, the best way to witness is to pray to God and ask Him for Wisdom on how to go about it. It will soon get to a point where people get arrested for witnessing.

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       LondonGirlposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Good for LU - last thing I want when sitting on the Tube is some nut sounding off in my face.

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    Vladimir Uhriposted 16 years ago

    Idolatry is not only worship to other gods, but also mind problem. Some have false Jesus in their mind.
    
    Still we should come back to witnessing. One may to go visit the neighbor. One may say: I am private minister, your neighbor. I use to be a hypocrite but Jesus ask us to love one another. Then here I am. God bless you. May I come in?

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       Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       Now how would you know a false Jesus?  What does it sound like or tell you or any other specifics to know what is what?

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    spiderpamposted 16 years ago

    So true.

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       Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       So who told you that you did a sin and it was very bad?  How are you going to tell you child that how he came about was because he was conceived of a sin on your part.  How do you think he will feel about that?
       Did they also tell you that you were missing something in your life or heart?  Did you really think you had a choice or do you think it was pre-destined just like the Bible tells you so?  You do know about FREE WIIL don't you?  Does it work for you and how?

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    Gods Gardenposted 16 years ago

    I never could quite figure out what all the fighting and bickering reguarding religion was all about. Follow your faith..whatever it may be. Allow others to do the same. Choose the path for your own life. If others are interested in your actions, as you the person presents, they may choose to join you willingly on the journey. Whatever path you choose, respect one and others decision to do the same.

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       Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       So, when some one decides that their religious belief dictates that they kill all the infidels, you respect that belief?

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          Gods Gardenposted 16 years agoin reply to this

          Mark, Ive read several of your posts over the past 3 weeks. I will admit that your a smart well educated man and know as well as I do that religious zealots hiding behind the guise of faith to promote their own agenda are outside of the faith were discussing here. I'm not aware of any faith that promotes the killing of innocent individuals...if you are, enlighten me.

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             Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

             Well, to a certain extent, that is my point. Once you have decided that a god is speaking into your head, there are any number of reasons to kill the infidels despite whatever the "faith" says.
             
             Your faith, for instance has been instrumental in any number of wars, and involved in massive numbers of deaths because of god's imperative to "spread the word."
             
             Religion is just another excuse, and at the heart of all religious conflicts are tribal dominance issues. Oddly, the tribe with the most powerful god becomes dominant.
             
             Either way - your original response is well off-topic; your user name and personal information on your home page are clearly indicating that you have an agenda that involves "spreading the word," and I have trouble listening to the obvious next statement that will involve "it is not the faith, it is the believers," thus absolving the idea of a god and religion of any responsibility whatsoever.
             
             The logical next step for anyone who has decided they have the word of god, is to attempt to spread that word by any means necessary. I mean - if I had the word of god in my head, I would do my damnedest to make sure everyone else got it too.

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                Gods Gardenposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                This is what my profile states:
                I was born 100 years too late! I'm a simple man, with down to earth values. My Wife, Children, Grand Babies and Family are the most important people in my life. I fly the American Flag on my front porch every day and respect what it stands for and those that served allowing me to do so. A handshake and my word still are more powerful than any written contract. I love being in the outdoors or standing on a rivers edge. I've been on my knees by choice for two reasons in my life....and thats to pray and to ask my wife to Marry me ....This is who I am.
                
                Read the last two sentences:
                The beliefs of Christianity are vast and take many different paths, this is my journey. Join me and share yours...
                
                I did not state this is the only choice. I would not force my beleifs on anyone, its my personal journey and if others choose to walk awhile with me down that path then their company would be appreciated.

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                   Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                   I never said you would force your beliefs on anyone, I said it is the next logical step. You are apparently at the "try and persuade them," stage.
                   
                   Your user name includes the word "god" and the only 2 hubs you have so far produced are religious in nature.
                   
                   I would say you have an agenda that involves spreading the word.
                   
                   Wouldn't you?
                   
                   And just to get back on track with the original theme of this thread - Did you teach your children that a belief is just a belief and none were more or less correct than any others?

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                      Gods Gardenposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                      Be Careful Mark...You're making assumptions....
                      
                      As for my childeren, I'll let them answer that question for themselves.
                      
                      I was raised in the Catholic faith..though its been years since I've been to mass..Thus I'm on this journey to find my faith on my terms...I dont agree with the instutional proceedings of the church but I do beleive in the teachings of the church...still with me here?

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                         Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                         An assumption is not the same thing as making a decision based on the information at hand. You have chosen a user name with the word "god" in it. You have mentioned the "beliefs of christianity," and asked people to share their version of this religious journey with you. You have written only 2 hubs - both of which are religious in nature. I do not think I am making an  assumption here.
                         
                         Not really sure which teachings of the church you are talking about? Anti-abortion? Anti contraception? Anti gays?

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                            Gods Gardenposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                            Mark...I'm not interested in debating my beleifs with you, I dont play that game. Enjoy your choices/path, whatever that may be and I'll do the same. Again, their my choices and its my journey...enjoy yours

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                               Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                               I was not trying to debate your beliefs with you. I was merely pointing out your obvious agenda. Which you were trying to convince me you do not have.

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                                  Gods Gardenposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                  Mark..No agenda here at all, its my personel Journey. A reafirmition of my faith and my quest to learn more and be closer to God. I'm not preaching to you or anyone else nor am I tring to convert anyone. If others with like beliefs find peace in my writings then so be it. This Journey is for me and is not open for debate...I'll find my own peace and answers along the way. Its as simple as that, no hidden agenda, no traps just my quest to find the answers I need. I hope you can respect that.

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                                     Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                     I have questioned the reason why you have come to this forum.  I have seen your first hub.  It is the Rosary and that is Roman Catholic.  From my personal persective this group of people do hound others to believe in what they believe and I have gone so far as calling the group (not individuals) the "Borg".  I have also been on a journey and would like to share with you "the Long and Winding Road".  You may also be interested in what put me on that road and what "Brought me into the Light".  Perhaps we could share those stories.  It is my witnessing of my own personal experience.  Good luck in your persuit yourself.

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                                        Gods Gardenposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                        I'll read it, Have a good day! Looking forward to talking with you more after I read your Hub.

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                                     Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                                     lol
                                     
                                     I absolutely respect your right to do as you please. I never said you had a hidden agenda, just an agenda. Oh well....
                                     
                                     I will tell you a story though.
                                     
                                     There were these two farmers, and the place they lived was going through a drought. One of the farmers believed in god and was praying for rain. Knowing and trusting god would provide rain when he asked for it, he went ahead and ploughed his fields. Unfortunately, no rain came and he wasted his seeds and time.
                                     
                                     The other farmer - who did not believe in god and was not going to rely on a pagan ritual to feed his family had had the foresight to collect last year's rainwater runoff in large barrels and was able to irrigate his fields and bring in his crop.

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                   Ron Montgomeryposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                   I wish more people would express their faith in these terms.  Eloquent and inclusive rather than self righteous and bullying.

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                      Gods Gardenposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                      Ron, Thank You for your kind words...Have a wonderful day

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       Ron Montgomeryposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       I don't think anyone would disagree with such a position. The problems start when religious zealots who believe that their choice is the only true path take it upon themselves to convert others who believe differently.  They feel that their "truth" should govern everyone's lives, and don't accept, "no thank-you" in response to their proclamations.  They are especially dangerous when they try to control others through legislation as we've just seen in California.  The good news is that their demographic is aging exponentially fast, and we won't have to hear from them as a bloc for much longer.

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          Gods Gardenposted 16 years agoin reply to this

          Good Point!!

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