Nigerian Child Witches and the Church. This almost made me sick.
I would like it known that this input is in ways generalized as to get into all the specifics,and write all documented cases, and list all the facts and my sources I would be able to write a book, or two, or three.
The Modern world and modern civilization thinks it self so evolved it no longer believes in such superstations as witches evil spirits and alike. Also it is falsely believed that such cases are by those that lack a high education, or are the less intelligent people of society.
Accofranco is correct in that Westerners seem to hold a monopoly on belief that Nigeria in particular is the darkest country in the so called dark continent. However to belief this child witch craft superstition doesn't happen in parts of Africa and the documented cases are from White Christian Nutter's pointing the holy than Thou finger, is like believing there is not only no longer a human slave trade, let alone the Hundreds of children kidnaped and sold into slave labour every year. Or that in many parts of India woman and girls as young as 12 have not suffered the most horrific abuse. acid thrown in their face, disfigurement burnt and killed. Or to Believe that Pirates were of the days of sailing ships. Though of late the Pirating practice has been once more brought to the world stage,Only because it effects the fat cats and big money players again it is something that has carried on for hundreds of years, In fact a pirate case involved a Famous New Zealander, Sir Peter Blake. On 6 December 2001, pirates shot and killed Blake while he was on an environmental exploration trip in South America
Before you western Christians think you are out of the firing line of such barbaric practices think again. There are and have been a number of cases where children and adults have been hurt maimed and killed in exoticisms. ( the witch craze is not over either just more of a fact that there have not been any public witch burnings in the last 20 years that I know of). A point to modern exoticism, here in New Zealand a case was just brought before the courts where a woman was killed in the Name of god from drowning as water was forcefully poured down her throat in an exoticism. This is one of five cases in the last 10 years, I have lost count of the American cases.
Though this simple Fact remains. The Christian God is only the latest in a long line of, 'in the name of...' in the history of mankind. So one can not place the full brunt of blame at the Christians and the Christian God's feet. Though they do make up a very large amount of cases over the last couple of centuries.
In answering the question of where such beliefs come from here is a simplified explanation
To Begin with, Human kind pretty much from the dawn of human civilization. Has always had suppositions and beliefs, Believed in evil spirit and Entities that coexist with us. The two main categories are those of spirit, the ethereal, and those of the physical. Many of these stem from the hours of darkness, simply because mankind generally was not safe in these dark hours from nocturnal predators,such as wild dogs, wolfs, big cats also when light is shone or reflected in the eyes of animals that are nocturnal hunters,such as cats, wolfs, dogs, wild dogs, bats and owls they take on an airy glow. I'm sure we have all seen it, a pair of glowing eyes staring out from the darkness.
Nocturnal birds such as owls ( most Common) and other night hunter birds, have like all birds, Bird calls, and were often believed to be the spirits of the dead calling out in the night. This was reenforced by the fact that many Nocturnal animals are not seen in the daylight hours.
Through out the world ( from my own research in suppositions and beliefs) every culture has its own version of evil spirits, witches of the dark powers /arts, little people whom in western society know as pixies and faerie the Faerie again is a large list of humanoids. In western society there is the incubus, the male form of the female scubas. In which the Incubus, will and can impregnate a woman with child while the woman sleeps and her husband lays next to her. In parts of South Africa, the equivalent would be a small pitch black male creature, closest to the size of a gnome who will climb up the bed legs and inseminate the woman again in her sleep and again while her husband sleeps next to her. ( weather this is only a white south African belief I am unsure) However I did have a friend ( is how I learnt of this) who put his bed on two paint cans filled with concrete. For each leg, as it is believed the little man could not climb the metal, Much like here in New Zealand we will wrap metal at the bottom of trees to prevent possums getting up them.
the Belief in Ghosts and Zombies stretches back well centuries, as far as zombies are concerned that mystery has been solved.
The most famous account, which was portrayed in the Movie the Rainbow and the serpent, though over dramatized to make a good horror it is in fact based on a real and documented case.
One last little tid bit fact, It is more often found it is the intelligent and educated leaders that help stir such beliefs that suit their purpose in those areas of less educated towns and societies, as Fear is and has always been the most useful tool of control of any populaceHave a look at the links and videos and it has been said that it is not Nigeria that is being singled out here. It's find to be patriotic, this is not the issue at all. It is not a personal affront to Nigeria. It is a personal affront to those people (who happen to be in Nigeria) who are abusing children for financial gain.
It is one thing to have beliefs, but a child is taught belief and if a belief harms a child then you have to question the sanity of the belief.
I am a believer in the One True God. I view salvation history as the drama between good and evil, Christ and Satan. The greatest deception therefore is that the evil forces (Satan and his agents) have hijacked the Christian religion mainly by rejecting the Bible as the only standard of faith and doctrine.
Hence the horrors of the Crusades, Inquisition, Vatican support of Nazi, fundamentalists endorsing USA CIA plots against democratically elected governments using fabricated stories.
All these evil deeds should be exposed for what they are: disobedience to the revealed will of God.
Look at the 10 commandments. Look at the Sermon on the Mount. You will see the love of God.
Cults will spring up on the fanatic fringe of any religion or political movement. Hence the need for systematic theology.
Democratically elected governments have the responsibility to protect the weak from occult groups with abusive teachings.
Here's the catch 22. As a strong believer in the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, I am part of a world wide movement which teaches that out of the disobedient and erroneous Christian church itself will arise an antichrist.
So the events you guys are discussing, are only microscopic precursors to what is coming. Hint hint: The Inquisition will return in more subtle forms.
Your only safeguard is to accept the Bible and the Bible only as your rule of faith and doctrine.
False prophets will tell you to do all kinds of things. Not only in Nigeria. Read the book of Revelation.
Properly understood, the religion of Christ is a liberating religion. It promotes education, health, family life, creativity, gender dignity and spiritual equality of genders, etc.So as a preacher yourself, how would you like to see the law upheld with the preachers in Nigeria gaining wealth at the expense of innocent children? If these Pastors are your fellow Christian messengers of god and use the Christian bible as the fuel to justify their actions do you stand behind them as one of you?
Read my comment again.
Just like we do with the bible we ignore the message and run off with our own opinions. Read my comment again, of course the government should protect life and limb; and if they fail then the international community has an obligation. But read my comment; there's a subplot there that i don't want to open up right now.I read your message and was asking you personally about your stance. There are so many false prophets it's really hard to sift through those that have integrity. Quoting scriptures to me is lacking integrity when a person doesn't adhere to them but hides behind them as a reason for terrible inhumane behavior. That is my standpoint. The messages of the bible are often misunderstood anyway so please excuse me if I don't take preachers seriously. That's a generalization and not meant as personal toward you. I don't know you personally.
My stance was there all along:
"Democratically elected governments have the responsibility to protect the weak from occult groups with abusive teachings".Thanks for the clarity. Apologies for my flippant attitude. If anyone mixes sermons on the mount and 10 commandments in their discussions I automatically turn away.
Good stance by the way.
You better find out "What Is A Cult" before you go into that one. I wrote a hub on that with that very same name I put in quotations. Very hot topic indeed.
A cult is a religion with no money......
I dunno about that. Jim Jones mst have had some pull with money to get all that stuff and his very own airplane done to his ministry site. How many guards di he have to kill all those reports and those who tried to get out? In the Name of God!
Still no match to real religion, like Christianity
Probably it's best to change "no" to "very little" 
What I would like to know is after they get one into that type stuff what keeps them. What kind of hold do they use to keep those people in that cult? I know I should ask this on my hub "What Are Cults", but it got too messy and I would rather some "Good" come from it then the crap that is there in the comments now.
Is it the lack of money to get out or the fear that you will be killed if you even try, Or something else?
I read and did a report on Revelations in High School. What is "properly" understood? You mean by the clergy or by your own thinking mind.
There is no Satan or Evil. It is hogwash and it will tell you in the Bible that Christ already got rid of him. What happened to Jesus after his "RESURRECTION", you know when he told you that he would come back and he did? He wasn't beleived because he was a different shape and look. Then what happened to him? It was dropped pout of the Bible and---oh ho--Pauls' teaching appear. Jesus and Peter just vanished. Peter was the foundation of the church--not Paul. Yet Paul's teaching supersede anything that Jesus says or Peter says.
You are correct in reading the Bible, but don't let another tell you what it is supposed to mean. Read it for yourself--paragraph by paragraph, not sentence by sentence. God and Jesus and we don't even talk that way.
"Your only safeguard is to accept the Bible and the Bible only as your rule of faith and doctrine."
When are you going to realise that telling others what will happen to them if they do not believe as you do is not very good thinking.
It is rude, arrogant and puts people off.Too quick on the draw my friend. This statement is for the believer, that is, if you belong to a Christian organisation make sure it is teaching the bible or you might very will end up with a fanatical cult like the one under discussion.
"Your only safeguard" against false teachings of false leaders in the church. How do you know if they are true or false? Go back to the Bible.
Earnest you face an epistemological difficulty in communicating with believers. Your authority comes from no doubt respectable existential modern secular philosophies, our authority comes from God's Word, especially the life and teachings of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
You appear to have a great sense of history. So take note. The history of the Christian church has shown that when men have taught their own traditions instead of the word of God, humanity has suffered: Dark Ages. The Inquisition. Selling of indulgences. Jim Jones. David Koresh.
For you who dont believe, my first task is to invite you to believe in the love of God. Keep an open mind.
Begin by reading the epistles of John. All about love.
In my opinion no true religion allow these kind of acts. You connect the answer with the religion. If you call it religion anyway then this is not what God's religion rather it is man made religion. The so called fathers and priests want to continue these kind of their own developed superstitions and rituals to take their control on the people. Of course most of them know that is not right but they willingly or unwillingly wanted to continue it.
These so called priests play their horrible games on the label of religion just because of the ignorance of the people of such regions like Nigeria, India and many other region like these countries.
Yes this is religious issue of course, the religious people should come forward and do something to help these people. The only problem which I said is ignorance, if we enlightened them with knowledge and let them think logically I think the problem'd be solved.
Thanks for starting a debate on such a burning issue of today's world.Education is very important, absolutely. Ignorance in this instance particularly is very dangerous.
Despite what some people think, the point of this thread is not to demonize Nigeria.
It is to try to help me understand how horrific practices like these can be carried on by religious people under the banner of their church.
As many have pointed out, practices like this are not restricted to Nigeria. They happen all over the world.
It's disappointing to me that virtually none of the regular people active in the religious forums have commented here.
I guess that never ending wall-pissing contests about whose God and which religion is the best are much more comfortable than discussing and doing something about the hell that occurs in the name of religion.
Thank you Janni321 for your comment, which cuts to the heart of the issue:
It seems to me that followers of organised religions are willing to turn off their brains and accept any excesses, believe the wild claims, and follow the orders of their local Grand Poobah irrespective of the colour of the robe, and type of hat that they wear.
The basic ideas of the bible are great. It's too bad that they always seem to get distorted to meet the needs of the gang at the top of each religion's structure.
Now, what can each religious person do to stop the shameful practices that are carried out by their church in the name of God?
Now THAT would be a worthwile activity for the people in the religious forums of the world.You're a smart person.
Go back to the start and work it out.@Tksensei Dude Can't you read??... Eric isn't trying to demonize Nigeria or any religion.... Gosh..... It is sad and pathetic.... against innocent kids.
Bless your heart Eric. Well stated. The basic ideas of the bible when used as the standard of faith and doctrine will give rise to and support the best democratic traditions of the Western world.
Powerful and corrupt, and sometimes misguided leaders will manipulate the masses in the name of religion. So we go back to the basic tenets of the bible to correct them, and we use church organisation to discipline them, and we turn them over to the police if it involves the law of the land.
I'm part of a church which is seeking to carry forward the protestant Reformation by stripping christendom of all the falsehood, and going back to bible basics, so forgive me if I sound a little highhanded when I say it does not matter whether or not you are a believer, just use the test, the bible, the holy scriptures of the faith, to validate any preacher or group.
It's not even about authority, its about method. Ethics require a standard. For the Christian, its the bible. For Hitler it was the super race philosophy of Nietzsche.
All I'm saying you cant blame the bible. Humanity would find a way to destroy others without the Christian religion or any religion. Some just distort whatever they lay hand on, in this alleged case a sick brand of evangelical christianity.
It seems to be that the ministries came and went. The witch killers picked up on the scam....(Hey ...I can get a cut of peoples food and goods if I kill off their witches....they will praise and honor me for it too....hell yes...I won't have to work anymore!) All they need is a curse,a victim and suckers. Sound familiar? Of course the witch killers promote the religion.
The ministries did this....the ministries need to fix it...NOW!The killing and torture of children is nothing new. My father fought in WWII. D-Day, Omaha beach, Battle of the Bulge, and he also helped liberate the Jewish prisoners from the Nazi death camps. He didn't talk about the war much, but I could see the tears in his eyes when describing the children from these horrid places.
It's strange to see such an old warrior cry. Of all he had experienced this was the worst. We cannot solve all of the problems in the world, but we have to try. Power and greed, this is the real evil, not satan.Most times it's sad when strangers tell a story about a country especially Nigeria, because most see Nigeria as an evil country,but i tell you today,Nigeria is the best country you would be glad you visited,forget the ill will money moonging and tribalistic stories you hear or watch,most are purposedly made up to make money and to create an international popularity by the documentor.Please i plead you all to make out a time and visit Nigeria for once,contact me and i will make your stay memorable.
Nigeria isn't evil. Things just as horrific as this occur all over the world. Heck the US has been home to Dahmer, Gacy and all manner of serial killers. Just as there are horrid places here in the States, there are horrid places in Nigeria too. Same thing with places of beauty and ease. Heck you have tropical forest, savanna and desert conditions in your country. I'll bet there are places as grand there as the Grand Canyon or the Everglades. It's a shame that you take this topic as an attack on your nation and people. It's not meant to be.
May be its because of the way people handle matters about Nigeria,so i ought to quench the fire before it turns into explosion to consume my country's image that we are striving to raise.
Even though this atrocity is happening in Nigeria, I know it's not Nigeria that is the problem. It's a pocket of people that create disharmony. It happens in many countries. I'd like to see a country that doesn't have skeletons in their closet. Maybe Bhutan - don't know!
Those things ebb and flow. Most people see Nigeria as that place that spam comes from. If and when Nigeria gets a handle on that situation, you'll see the negative connotations go away. For the most part. Some things are forever. Like the Protocols of the Priory of Zion or the Freemasons. Be glad Nigerian spam hasn't gotten worked up to that proportion.
Thats the problem,i condemn scam each day,then who has prosecuted usa for fighting on every land and siphoning their resources and then give portion back for reconstruction?Who murdered England for forcefully colonizing almost all countries and stealing their antiques and resources,every country has their limitations,it will stop with time,just as slave trade stopped,and then westerners should stop being greedy.
1. So you're saying the US doesn't pay for what it takes?
2. Does colonization automatically give someone a death sentence? Why?
3. How is it that Westerners are greedy?
I rather think Americans are generous. Anytime you see a natural disaster, the Red Cross is there, Americans pour out charity to help people. Even in places like Iran and North Korea, where you might expect we'd not offer help because of their official stance. But then again, what do I know, I'm just greedy.
Isn't there a saying about removing the beam from thine own eye?
Well first of all you should get rid of all those e-mail and other scams that take unsuspecting people's money! I had a run in with this and the Police did tell me that your country doesn't prosecute them, hence giving your country a bad name in itself. I don't trust anyone from your country anymore.
Greed is the cause of people falling prey to scam and fraud. Then westerners should stop siphoning resources from developing nations indirectly and be contempted with what they have. What was the purpose of war in Iraq? Why are the foreign soldiers still there?
I would suggest not all fall victim to scams through greed, many scams are real estate rentals that are not cheaper or bargains, they are on offer alongside legitimate landlords.
I agree with you about Iraq, and your point about greed is otherwise correct too.
A scammer would tell a westerner that he wants to transfer millions of dollars from his country's account to the westerner's account,and he or she agrees to secure the money,along the line he or she gets scammed,who should be blamed? Is it not act of greed? Would you fall prey to such thing? Tell me?
No I would not fall for that type of scam, have you not seen the real estate rental scams? The Federal Police told me they originated in Nigeria, and are the exception I refer to.
you might be right Eric,i like your spirit,so honest,you aren't like many greedy westerners,who are freaked at the mention of $M
Thank you accofranco, my name is Ern by the way!
Typecasting Nigeria is not helping is it? Nigeria like all countries has it's problems but it also has beautiful families and individuals living in harmony and peace too.
No I wouldn't because I know there is no such thing as a free lunch. I assure you as much as you're frustrated with Westerners, it pales in comparison to the aggravation I feel for them. So yeah, there is a small part of me that gets satisfaction from knowing these people are getting scammed. They should know better but they don't act that way. It's a function of natural law really.
NOPE, not how it came down on me! They are taught somewhere from someone in YOUR country to be very sly and sneaky on how they get others money. Mine was for a simple (HA! NOT) Temp On-line position.
Western countries should make a law to punish their citizens who fall prey to any scam or case involving money or fund transfer,then scam would reduce.I have confronted some scammers here,they said they are paying you guys back for slavery and forceful colonization.
Earnesthub and Jewel:
I am flabbergasted that bright hubbers like yourselves are so keen to knock faith that you dont realise that you and i are on the same page when it comes to false teachers.
I didn't want to say it on HubPages for fear or starting a denominational argument, but this should clear it up:
The Christian church since the early centuries has been hijacked by false teachers with personal, financial, and political motives. Things improved somewhat with the renaissance and reformation.
But much of Christianity as you know it now is largely a non-biblical movement.
Within the Christian church God has raised up a movement to call people to worship the true Creator God and obey the bible, not the traditions of men.
False prophets and false doctrines will result in the alleged situation in Nigeria.
Please read twice before you pluck a sentence to kick around.I must disagree once again, our differences are more fundamental than you state. I do not believe in your god.No omnipotent entity for me. The opinion I have is against such a belief.
I really can't understand why you are so flabbergasted, I really can't. These preachers in Nigeria who are defining these innocent children as witches and turning the parents of these children against the children, are christian preachers.
"God has raised up a movement to call people to worship the true creator god and obey the bible." That's what these fools think they are doing also. They do their crimes in the name of the God in your bible. They don't see their doctrines as false.
If you really want to do something about it, get a few of your preachers who perhaps have integrity to go over there and clean those fallen preachers out of Nigeria with a broom, or lock them up, hand them over to the police. And any other country that is infested with fallen preachers, preaching their beliefs that are fallen beliefs in the name of the god in that bible of yours.
Again to accofranco and fierycj, this statement is not personal to Nigeria, it is personal to the preachers who commit these atrocities.My brethren in africa are probably doing what you are asking as we speak.
See my blog http://glendoncaba.blogspot.com
and check the feeds for any related stories.
Ern,you speak like a genius and i bet you are,sorry for the wrong id.
That is nice of you to say, but I am no genius I can assure you! No problem at all with the ID accofranco, we all do it, I just like it when people correct my little typos and errors, so hope you don't mind.
Ern and Gladen, you guys deserve a diamond medal,you have said it all,may the infinite mercy,peace and love of the one true God,be with you all now and forever? I am off, its 6:15 am here.
"Thank you accofranco, my name is Ern by the way!"
Just thought I would engage in some of the wonderful intellectual dishonesty in the sentence plucking. lol.
But look at all this inter-racial flirting under my nose. In the midst of a serious church seminar on crime against humanity in Nigeria. I told you! They killed our black men, and then flirted with the ladies. Thats what slavery was all about.
Invite me to the engagement party as well!!!!Something got lost in the translation glendoncaba, I have no idea what you are talking about.
My point exactly. I simply demonstrated what happens when one plucks an isolated sentence out of context.
anyways back to the main story.Edited: My comment got into the wrong space above. So Here it is in the Right Place:
Most Christians do that very same thing. Look, Jesus never preached from a book. He also said that we should not either. He didn't like what the clergy were doing in the churches either but they still are doing it. Are you teaching from a book? Then you are going against what Jesus says in that book.
Acco is a man LOL Are you implying they both are gays?
Now its really funny, no pun intended. I did not know acco was male. Now i'm laughing so hard.
The same bad theology that kills little children will also persecute christians and atheists in the end time scenario. There, I've said it.
Let me quote from a post above which idont think you've seen ern:
Earnest you face an epistemological difficulty in communicating with believers. Your authority comes from no doubt respectable existential modern secular philosophies, our authority comes from God's Word, especially the life and teachings of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
You appear to have a great sense of history. So take note. The history of the Christian church has shown that when men have taught their own traditions instead of the word of God, humanity has suffered: Dark Ages. The Inquisition. Selling of indulgences. Jim Jones. David Koresh.
For you who dont believe, my first task is to invite you to believe in the love of God. Keep an open mind.
Begin by reading the epistles of John. All about love.I keep telling you, I do not believe in your god, and would not be surprised if I knew more about the bible than many who post here, so my lack of belief is not due to ignorance or stupidity either, I came to a different point of view, get over it.
Yeah man. but you keep ignoring my main point all night.
whether you are agnostic, atheist, deist, or theist, we have to agree that a preacher who pretends to teach the truth of the bible but clearly does not is false or misled (still false).
Such persons or organisations should be strongly opposed by all well thinkiing persons whether they be atheist, agnostic, deist or theist.
In assessing crises in the christian groups, the Bible is the standard, not some invented teachings about witchcraft and children.
Let me open your eyes by saying i belong to a bible believing movement which operates schools, universities, hospitals, and clinics. We oppose false teachings inside and outside the christian religion with the bible as the standard.
Keep to the topic. What should other christians do about nigeria.
Oppose the alleged tragedy with biblical authority, and ask civil society to enforce the rule of law.
Seems to me that you are missing the obvious conclusion. I too have a great sense of history, and as you rightly point out - the so-called "word of god" has been used t dominate and destroy throughout history. And still is being used today. Whether by the catholics to hide child abuse in Ireland or these Nigerian witch-priestesses to murder child witches.
As usual you are using the "it is not the word of god, it is man's interpretation," argument.
This is no longer an acceptable get out of jail free card. Use your head and you can only come to one conclusion. The bible is not the word of god - it is the word of man, and there is no god.
You are blinded by your irrational belief. And all the time people are prepared to think they have the "word of god" in their head, they will continue to abuse it in this fashion.
You would think an all powerful super being would have written his words in such a way as for there to be no mistake. But no - to this day you guys are fighting over it.
And my "authority" outweighs your invented BS authority from a non-existent super being. Sorry. I am real.Sorry, you've been outgunned.
I'm real AND I can get a bit of paper as well!
http://www.themonastery.org/?destination=ordination
:lol;Honoured to stand in the same virtual space as the dean of hubbers.
I must first commend you for your kindness to us hub newbies. I notice you also trade forex. I tried it without mentoring and too little capital so I share your views on forex too; no trading unless capital and leverage right.
Can u believe it, I'm also involved in real estate.
But you are way way stratosphere success. There is much I can learn from you.
Now back to discussion. Blame my parents and teachers but I dont swear, nor do I engage in discussions with people who swear. We are more mature eh.
Because i respect you so much I'm going to make it easy on you. I concede without starting that my puny fingers on this keyboard may never share my humble and foolish ideas about the love of Jesus with you in order to convince you. So do both of us a favour, read the gospel of John as well as the Sermon on the mount in Matthew chapters 5 to 7 and give me feedback.Thanks for the compliments, but as Eric said.....
I have no intention of rereading any of your book. I have read and studied it - and three things are clear.
1. It is not written by a god
2. You can make it say just about anything you want
3. It gives you no "authority"
Now please address the points I made.Point by point:
1. It is not written by a god.
True. It is not written by God. It was written by God-inspired persons:
"For the prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy spirit." 2 peter 1:21
2. You can make it say just about any thing you want.
True. Thats what the people of jesus time did why God sent Jesus to clarify and correct his message of love. But God has miraculously preserved the bible. So we have the OT carefully copied in ages past and preserved for us. And in the NT we find that Jesus reveals more clearly the love of God and corrects misunderstanding. Please read the Sermon on the Mount just to humour me.
3. "It gives you no authority". False.
(Now Sir Mark before you start swearing and thus end the discussion, remember we are dealing with an issue of faith)
I am now going to quote from a lengthy article, or would you prefer me to post it on my religious blog tomottow foryou to go there and read and re resume here?
summary of it is like:
bible is the Voice of God.
Authority of God is His character of love peace service.
The authority of scripture as the written word of God manifests all the characteristics of the authorithy of God. this authority is expressed in demands of obedience, pleas of love, promises of forgiveness and blessings, and warnings of judgment.
so the writings of prophets and apostles speak with divine authority to every generation.So - I have no faith. What "authority" do you think your book gives you over me?
None. Therefore you have no authority.
And I don't think you appreciate exactly how offensive I find it when some one tells me they have authority over me. Especially when this self same authority is the ones the witch burners and child molesters use. Or even how condescending others find it. If I say you have no authority with me, then you have none. Simple.
At least we agree it was not written by a god.Now i'm becoming a hubforum addict. I need to get on with my real life right now and save this for later.
Sir Mark heres the rub. Subjectively, you do not acknowledge the authority therefore you do not accept it. So philosophically, as far as a Supreme Being is concerned you reject the concept and you believe in autonomous and existential ethical standards, right?
That's another forum. another discussion.
This thread is way off topic. Primarily because men go to war over anything.
I am a lover, not a warrior.
So I'm not going to argue till the cows come home over what we disagree on.
But it is intellectually dishonest of you to discuss a crime against humanity in the religious forum and refuse to grant a Christian apologist like myself the leave to propose that we should use the manual of the religion as one of the tools to analyse the crime since the said crime is being done in the name of the religion.
For the case against the abusers is not about you, it is about the authority of the Bible as the standard to discuss the alleged atrocities in Nigeria committed by apparent false preachers who are claiming to act on the authority of the Bible. If you are ging to fix a car it would be good to know what the manual says even if you think the manual is not authoritative for you, perhaps you have a better car, or know better engineering. Or like trying to critique art without at least knowing the authority of the rules of perspective, composition, colour etc. (well some people get away with that!!!).
If I am going to discuss jihad with a muslim i would at least pay passing reapect to the fact that they believe they are acting on the authority of the koran. But I digress...
Objectively, the laws yu obey to stay out of jail in a western country are all based on the great judeo christian teachings. So you unwittingly subscribe, though indirectly to the authority of the ten commandments.
In other words we exist in a social milieu that subscribe to the authority of the bible somewhat in order to survive.
comparative religion will also demonstrate that the societies influenced by the teachings of the bible on individual freedom, love, forgiveness, self worth, family, community etc are the societies with freedom, liberty, and empowerment of women etc.Now you are using semantics - a typical refuge of people who hold irrational beliefs. I never said I had not been influenced. I said - you do not have any authority over me. And your book most certainly does not hold any authority.
Here is the deal - If I do not recognize your authority - you do not have any. Simple.
And if you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty - a statement I see a lot from believers - just look at the tangent you have gone off on to distract from the point I made.
You believe in a god that does not exist. You claim some authority from that.
See the original post - they are claiming the same authority.
I am not interested in your apologies. As I said before - that is no longer a valid get out of jail free card. Sure - your book is fantastic - it is so perfect we have not had people using it as their "authority" to impose their will on others since the day it was written.
Your beliefs are 100% irrational. Your book is incomprehensible and I do not accept your argument that it is anything other than a political tool.
There is no individual freedom in your book. It is all about subjugation, self-worthlessness and control.
See any history book.Mark:
You are so militant in your atheism you cannot even see when opponent share common ground with you. I was actually agreeing with you that on this matter you obviously subjectively do not recognise the authority of the bible over you.
But i repeat the topic was not raised because of you. People who accept the authority of the book are committing atrocities on the basis of that authority.
Question: where did they go wrong, and what can I as a Christian do to stop them now?
Prevent it happening in the future?
Mark Knowles Solution as i perceive it:
Criminal case: Use the law to enforce protection of the weak.
Philosophically: Tell them the book has no authority and they are to subject their world view to secular post enlightenment ethics, forget about religion, all that is manipulative hogwash used by the priestly caste to wield power over simple minds. Up with atheism, down with faith. end of argument.
Glendoncaba solution:
Criminal case: Use the law to enforce protection of the weak.
Biblical Theology and Philosophy: Teach the misled preachers about the difference between authority and interpretation. Expose these no doubt semiliterate self taught preachers to proper seminary training with studies of original languages etc.
Maintain the authority of God's word for God is love. His character is love. Strip the doctrines of the Roman falsehood and go back to the biblical theology of the OT and NT. Man was created in the image of God with dignity, self worth, and perfection. Show them that Christ has dealt with the problem of evil so there is no need for human sacrifice, or human penance, even human disfigurement to atone for sin. Just show them from the bible that God is love and their expected response is to obey his loving commands. Nothing more. No penance. No good deed. Just accept the God the Father is love. The good deeds will flow out of us when we embrace love.
When we love then all humanity are god's children and we love and embrace their vital and loving contribution to the universe. each person is a unique child of God, made to accept and share love.
Love has two sides: Justice and mercy. we should hasten to be merciful, and slow to enforce justice. for we are so weak and limited in our ability to judge good from evil because of our own ego, our own pride. Love thinks well of others. Love is kind. Love seeks to honour and bless the neighbour. Love. Love. Love. the most powerful word in the universe. Love is the answer to all our debates, our crimes, our hubs.
and when we die we will not be remembered for our great arguments for or against religion, we will be remembered for how well loved our fellowmen.
Mark, I am the chief of hypocrites and sinners, but i believe in a loving Creator God who has called me to share his message of love.
You need not agree with me or accept his authority. He believes in freewill. I only ask that you understand it is not irrational. We live in an age of reason. Archaeology has led us to say we have a reasonable faith.No - you are not. You are using semantics to suggest - once again - that you do indeed have authority - but I am "subjectively" choosing to ignore that authority. Now say - "Yes Mark - I agree - I have no authority over you and the bible does not give me any authority," instead.
No - you missed one addition. Education.
Once they can let go of this irrational belief in an invisible super being, they will be on the way to making their own decisions.
And you are completely missing the point. You know as well as I do that if some one believes something strongly enough - no matte r how irrational - it becomes real for them. If you believe I am a witch with power to bewitch you - then I am a witch with powers to bewitch you. Same with the authority - If I say you have no authority - you have no authority. Your argument seems to be - your irrational belief is more powerful than mine.
This is unworkable. See any history book. The very idea of invisible sin is part of the problem. You are blinded by your wholly irrational belief in an invisible super being. God is not love. God is everything - good, bad, evil, wonderful - everything. God was created in man's image.
Just listen to yourself. You are more interested in "protecting the faith," and justifying your irrational beliefs than anything else. And this is not about Nigerians - it is about irrational beliefs and the irrational hurtful things that come out of those beliefs.
Mark's solution -
Fiery - you are the man with the AK47 and live down the road from these people - pay them a visit and show us how persuasive you can be.no sensei. Mark did not write that. That was me summarising Mark rhetorically in an effort to end the discussion quickly and get on with life. As you see he did not deny that position but dont label him. I used strong rhetoric to sumarise him. Lets not play into his game too much. We the people of faith who at least have some theological exposure need to remember that love conquers all, not arguments.
so apologise to him and take back that label. Pretty please.
@ glendoncaba.
You MUST be new here.
So here's a tip: sucking up to Mark Knowles doesn't work.
If you want to impress him, give him a good intellectual argument.
Anyway, welcome to Hubpages.Yes I'm new.
Thanks for the welcome.
No! I'm not sucking up to the great man. I was trained to have good manners. Again blame my parents and teachers.
Its now 3:51 am in Jamaica and i havent slept yet. I'm married with kids. Seriously.
Eric,
I'm not active in the religious hubs mostly because preachin' to the choir is quite boring and introspective. I just so happen to be an Christian theologian and apologist. I might be able to help.
This is a cut and dry case of bad theology.
Regardless of what one might think, the Bible is not left up to interpretation.
Let's say for instance, Eric, that you decide to start a hub about kindness to children and you include a lesson on the proper application of tough love.
Some schmuck reads your article and really wants to practice the tough part with his children. So after a night of monopoly little schmuck jr. refuses to go to bed and daddy schmuck applies his new found knowledge and beats his boy's brains in.
Riddle me this...Does this change the content or context of your article? Or does it now make you and evil person for writing it? This type of reasoning is a logical fallacy.
The Bible, like all text, is subject to textual criticism. Every written or spoken words interpretation is subject to the intentions of person making the claim.
If it weren't for hermeneutics (the science of interpreting scriptural text)and Martin Luther's dedication to correct interpretation of the Bible the dark ages could very well have persisted much longer than it did.
Here's the ugly fact. Mankind does horrible things for any cause they can grab a hold of. More people have been killed by atheistic regimes then the sum total of all religious wars.
So the answer is...killing children in the name of God is bad doctrine no matter which way you spin it.
On that note, there is a change that i see in the church today, many Christian pastors and scholars are fed up with this kind of behavior. Preachers getting busted for swindling, prostitution and the like is quite sickening. Many church leaders that I know are taking a proactive stance and are holding each other accountable for their deeds. As a Christian myself i take a look at situations like this and am appalled. I get where you dudes are coming from.I'm glad to read this. And thank you for not quoting scriptures in your post or wanting me to visit your site.
I wish a few other would follow your example.
I'm not active in the religious hubs because there's very little that I see there that equates to humanity.
I agree. And as a parent, regardless of what article I read, I know by instinct that it's wrong to bash children.
I'm not sure I'd agree with that. But I have no desire to debate it.
I hope their number spreads, and that they are effective.
Thank you for your words.As a Christian let me say that what happened in that village in Nigeria had very little to do with Christ or His message and seems to be an attempt to mix some elements of Christianity with with elements of tribal faiths. Either way those folks don't get it. Christ is about love and faith. If they really have faith and the children "were demon ridden" then all they had to do was command the demon in Jesus name to depart. That is all the Bible commands and all that is truly needed. Not some violence towards children. In the words of Maude" God'll
get you for that".I assume you are aware that the entire christian religion is based on stealing ideas from previous religions and incorporating their "tribal faiths,"?
This is how christianity has absorbed other previous belief systems.That's a chicken and egg kind of theorizing, Mark. If you truly look at the spread of Christianity what most people have done is incorporated the beliefs of Christianity into their current belief systems. This is especially evident in the New World, although it pretty much holds true just about everywhere else. Exhibit the first, Santeria. Of course "mainstream" Christian sources don't acknowledge the existence of this offshoot, but Santeria is a fusion of Caribbean, West African and Christian thought.
Likewise Mexican beliefs, of which I can speak of with some authority, is in many ways a fusion of pre-Colombian beliefs with Christianity. That is not to say that there is any extant cult of Huitzilopochtli running around. The fusion of belief had more to do with the cult of Quezacoatl and Christian though. Mexicans, too, are a very superstitious people, at least in the rural areas. In fact, in the 1990's there was a border gang that employed black magic in the belief that their hoodoo could stop bullets from striking them. They found a mass grave with over 30 victims, I believe, that were attributed to this mass murder.
So it would seem that superstition, rather than religion is truly at the heart of this matter. While religion is the vehicle used to transmit this warped message, it doesn't necessarily follow that religion is the only vehicle that can be used to transmit this message.Christianity pulled from the GREEK Gods and so forth. Tehre was no Christianity prior to Roman Conquest. Yet Chrisitans will tell you that isn't rue without looking it up for themselves. They only know how to quote scripture from that Boobk that Jesus never said to use and he didn't have.
Here's an answer based around what David Icke says on a video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvi8xiQ3DXY
That the gods of religions call for sacrifices of life and that the gods are all other-dimensional entities and are otherwise known as demons and devils. In other words the gods of major religions that call for sacrifice are no different to the demons of Satanism that also call for the murder of the innocent. These entities cause humans to kill. What is the difference between killing children as "witches" in the name of the Bible from killing children as sacrifice victims in the name of Satanism?Lady Guinevere,
May I suggest that you read Becker's seminal work "The Denial of Death"?
It answers your question, and it answer's Eric's original question, too.
Includes reports of laboratory studies showing that even intelligent, educated university students will do cruel things to one another under the right circumstances, and shows what circumstances and explains why.
It's a "must read" book for anyone interested enough in theosophy to participate in this forum, I reckon.
JennyThanks! I am always trying to expand my universe.
I watched a program on one of the Learning or History channels. They put 5 teens in a room with a picture--I think it was the arrows where one looks longer thant the other--and 4 were told to chose the wrong one on purpose and the other was not told anything. He knew it was wrong but after 3 or 4 tries at telling the others that it was wrong, funally gave in and said that it was right---KNOWING it was the wrong answer. It was quite interesting.Yes, that's a classic social psychology experiment.
They fold even faster if one other person takes their side at first, and then switches to join the majority ...
JennyThere you go, LG
http://www.experiment-resources.com/asc … iment.html
Peer pressure can be very powerfulThat is why I advocate to read the Bible or any Religious book by oneself without others to tell you what it means. Get your own learning and lessons from your own mind, not that of others.
I was looking for this information after I watched that and couldn't find it to save my life! Thank You VERY much! I shall put it in my favorites!!
Funny, I imagine that this is how that bruja-chaser in Nigeria developed her ideas. Context is important. You can have no true understanding of a subject until you can say for sure why things developed in the way that they did. In order to understand the Old Testament, you have to study the context in which it was not only written, but the history of the events is chronicles. Same thing with the New Testament. You have to study the history of the Roman province of Judea. Unless you do that, all you're really doing is speculating.
Exactly. Everything was not written in that book.
ledefensetech
Funny, I imagine that this is how that bruja-chaser in Nigeria developed her ideas. Context is important. You can have no true understanding of a subject until you can say for sure why things developed in the way that they did. In order to understand the Old Testament, you have to study the context in which it was not only written, but the history of the events is chronicles. Same thing with the New Testament. You have to study the history of the Roman province of Judea. Unless you do that, all you're really doing is speculating.[/quote wrote:
Ledenfen
Congrats on the level of scholarship you bring to the discussion.
Let me say though not one soul will be saved by intellectual jousting. People have to come to Calvary and see Jesus on the cross and understand the atonement, the love of God poured out, the great lesson, the great offer of grace.
You claim to be more of a Deist, right?
So if the prime mover is a being of love, let us invite others to discover that love in the bible.
I suggest we begin new topics on forum to look at some of the issues raised here. But all this will be a waste of time if we all close our minds to issues of faith.Thanks for the compliment. The problem with using the Bible itself as a sole means for understanding the universe is flawed. The main reason is that there have been so many changes over the years, that we cannot be sure what the original writers put down. Even if we did, that's no guarantee that the writers themselves were particularly trustworthy. Most religious writers attempt to get around this fault by claiming that the book was divinely inspired or some such, but let me speculate a moment. If God really did talk to these writers and God is infinite, how can you be sure a human mind, which is finite, would be able to survive such a contact, much less understand the conversation?
The reason I'm a Deist is because creation has been shown to work according to certain rules. Water freezes at 0 C for instance and boils at 100 C, at least at sea level. That can be reproduced anywhere else in the world at sea level with the same results every time. So that tells us something about the world and how it was fashioned. A Deist, however, has to take the existence of God on faith, as there is no current way to explore anything that might exist outside our universe. So faith does play a role. Yet even assuming a creative force, the way creation unfolded tells us something about this force. It created the universe according to certain rules. Therefore these rules point to how the mind of this creative force thinks.
Gnostic Christianity is one of the sects of early Christianity that lost out when the early Church became affiliated with Rome. By becoming a state religion the early give and take of the early Church was a liability. So councils were announced and the merits and demerits of different branches were debated. Gnostic Christianity posited a hidden meaning, or a meaning behind what most branches believed. Of course their theology went off on very strange tangents then, but the basic premise was that there was wisdom hidden within the teachings of Christ.
Achieving Gnosis, or wisdom, requires one to understand the world and our place in it. Deists are the spiritual descendants, not the direct descendants of Gnostics. For one thing, we ignore the theology and stick to the basic premise of Gnosis. There is hidden knowledge, but unlike Gnostics we believe that we can understand things through the use of reason.Underlying all knowledge is experience. There is little use understanding everything written and putting everything into structured columns. There is no mistaking your knowledge on religious sects and doctrines. And this applies to any preacher or pastor of EC. If you do not become the knowledge itself, you have wasted a lifetime reading.
Must track that one down, Jenny - sounds like a good read.
LG/Eric: You could also try Milgram - very surprising and disturbing results.
http://www.experiment-resources.com/sta … iment.html
Of course, there is always Stanford Prison - humanity does have some dark impulses.Lady G- leachdefensetech goes on forever. He has enough hot air to fill a couple of blimps.
Yeah, I'm around for a visit until the wife starts seeing me smile.
leden and guinev
Cool it. As i said above, the word is love.
And I'm not even a rastafari but "One Love, One Heart, Lets get together..."Good theology would say stay on topic. Stick to theme. What does the text say (meaning eric's original post). To whom was it written? What did it mean to the original audience? What does it mean to us 200 posts later?!!!!!!
Get back on topic people.
See ya later gotta do my wifes business now.
Yep we're in business together.
"God is love."Ledefensetech wrote: "That's a chicken and egg kind of theorizing, Mark. If you truly look at the spread of Christianity what most people have done is incorporated the beliefs of Christianity into their current belief systems. This is especially evident in the New World, although it pretty much holds true just about everywhere else. Exhibit the first, Santeria. Of course "mainstream" Christian sources don't acknowledge the existence of this offshoot, but Santeria is a fusion of Caribbean, West African and Christian thought."
This argument is flawed. People did not incorporate Christianity into their belief systems because they chose to, Christians forced it on them or they would have killed them. The result is the compromise of Creole cultures reverting to previous beliefs prior to being enslaved, or conquered by Romanesque intensive agricultural societies that are infatuated with themselves and their invented holier than though religions.
Christians have not been able to peaceably spread their Stupidity since the Romans took over the religion at the end of Constantine’s rein. Since then it has been burn anything that questions Roman/Christian Authority, Kill anyone that does not agree, and destroy all the evidence. If there is an evil a loose in the world it most certainly Christianity.Trooper said
"Christians have not been able to peaceably spread their Stupidity since the Romans took over the religion at the end of Constantine’s rein. Since then it has been burn anything that questions Roman/Christian Authority, Kill anyone that does not agree, and destroy all the evidence. If there is an evil a loose in the world it most certainly Christianity".
Trooper trooper trooper:
if only you knew how close you are to the truth but not for this thread.
hence the liberating power and beauty of sola scriptura: the bible and the bible only as the rule of faith and doctrine.
There is an evil loose, a perverted christianity which Martin Luther started to reform, and which many christians are now seeking to continue the reform by teaching the bible.
Three cheers for the protestant reformation.You do realize that these preachers in Nigeria that are persecuting children by falsely calling them witches are a product of the reformation and self interpretation (sola scriptura) of the Bible don't you?
It certainly destroyed the idea of one Body in Christ with what, some 3,000 different Christian denominations and counting, most with no accountability. When you add in the site that Eric posted that anyone can get a preacher's diploma, the one that Lady Guinevere got with a 5 page essay then there are a pile more than just 3,000 different Christian denominations all with different ideas and most without accountability.
By the way pal sola scriptura (the Bible alone) is not Biblical. Don't believe me, check your own Bible at 2 Thessalonians 2:14.
You call yourself an evangelist don't you glendoncaba? So does Helen Ukpabio. Are you also a Pentecostal?Hi Make Money: I've been away from this thread for weeks.
Unfortunately I have not received any feedback yet to my inquiries. Will try again.
Rest the doctrinal arguments here. We both know we have nothing to prove. I have no moral right to argue religion in this thread until I have contacted someone in Nigeria. Since I belong to a large world wide church with a very organised ministry.
I am concerned as well about loosely organised churches with untrained leaders.
Make Money I know you know that the two most organised churches in the world are Roman Catholic and ...at opposite extremes of the reformation, yet with much in common, including a solid global structure. I'll email our conference in Nigeria again.
We have nothing to prove here. We know each other.
Exactly!
Why do you think they killed Jesus? Because he spoke against that Roman Rule and that was the ONLY reason. There were many, many, many others done in the same fashion.
This does have alot to do with the OP topic as Roman still wants to conuer the world in the form of enslavement and religion--anyway they can control the populous and the easy way for them and the most sneaky way is through beliefs.Actually it was the Pharisees and the Sanhedrin that conspired to kill Jesus, not the Romans, they were just the tools used.
Yes, I know that. The Romans used soldiers to infiltrate and to bring them to the Romans so they could kill them. They ewre blood thirsty people.
Really, so explain to me the mass murder of the Germanic people in order to get them cowed enough to accept Christianity, or the Poles, or the people who could become Austrians.
You are, of course, referring to the actions of the Church during the Age of Exploration. That of course was after the Crusades, Black Death and during the Reformation, none of which conspired to allow the peaceable spread of Christianity.Hmmm, not much for history are you. Here's some help:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_II'd like to point out that most of the violence perpetuated during that time was Christian on Christian violence. That was one of the consequences of the Church founders allying themselves with Rome as the state religion. That's an indictment of state power, not religion.
Ok, you are just a flat-out bigot. Fortunately, you have some like-minded folks around here.
ROFL! A christian calling someone a bigot! Now's there's a HOOT! I'll have to remember that the next time I hear someone substantiate slavery by qouting the book of Job. LOL!!!! OMG, that's to much.
Hello Glendoncaba, Your suggestions to read the Bible are all for naught. Many of us have read the Bible already. I was raised in a strict christian household as a child. One must believe in the men who wrote the Bible before accepting their words. We have no proof they were sincere in their preachings, none at all. For all we know they merely made up the words for self promotion. We see modern day evangelists do this all of the time.
Merely telling others to read something in which they have no confidence and have already read anyway solves nothing.
By the way, I will be visiting your beautiful country during the 4th of July holidays as I usually do. I have made many friends there over the years and always enjoy the beautiful scenery and the people.
Respect.Yeah. See where youre coming from. Here is my request: if there were a manual for atheism that i was asked to read in order to understand the core of atheism then i would. The two passages I insist on are relatively short and would serve as remnder.
1. Ten Commandments (Exodus 20)
2. Jesus teachings on ethics (Matthew chapters 5 - 7)
Read those meditatively and come back here and tell me what you think a Christian should be?
enjoy the vacation man. Where? Negril or MoBay?The ten commandments existed long before Christianity as they were basic laws of primitive man. I consider myself an agnostic as I don't know if there is a god or not. I have already read the Bible and seen the movie. The movie was better, something usually not the case. I have never met an honest preacher, most like to hear themselves talk.
The Bible was written by common men, parts taken out and parts put in to suit the particular times. Slavery is an example of this. What proof do you have that the Bible is the word of God other than a mortal's word?
Negril, of course. The most beautiful beach in the world.
Again, respect.1. Fulfilled prophecy.
2. changed lives.
3. coherence, so many writers, one message.
4. miraculous preservation.
5. archeology
5. effect on me.That is a nice no doubt heartfelt and honest response. I propose that with belief, our primary position is already taken, then we assemble the evidence to support it.
In a psychological sense I understand my life as my own myth, and I live my life based on what that myth is.I think your argument can be summed up with a quote from well known poets and musicians...Poison.
"Up skinny bop...she blows me away. Up skinny bop bop...all night an day!"
What does your statement have to do with the evidence presented? True they were generalized blanket statements but extremely valuable nonetheless.
Now, I'm pokin' fun at you so I expect a witty argument and a brutalizing crush to my character when you respond. Otherwise I might get offended.Well... what I was tryin to say was, you are what you eat, or as a man believes so shall it be, or whatever cleans your pipes! I never caste aspersions on people unless they load a question with a lot of hot cocky droppings!
Why do you assume I haven't read enough about the Bible or other books before forming an opinion? I've read thousands of books about almost every subject. I've never met a true prophet before neither and don't believe they exist.
Sure, some people change their lives when they become religious, others change without being religious. Still others are religious and change into bad people. Coherence? Because people believe the same things doesn't mean they are right. Miraculous preservation? What has been miraculously preserved other than belief in a old book?
I have seen no archaeological proof of God, on the contrary, it seems to disprove god if anything.
The effect on you--I'm sorry, you tend to make me even more positive of my beliefs. If God chose you to bring in more sheep then I question his judgment even more. No, the Bible holds no spell over me, that is for those scared of death and aren't satisfied with the here and now.I'm shocked at the tone of your comments. We were having a very civil discourse. You will notice I shy away from vitriolic attack the person approach. You have not responded fairly to my summary points which require explanation, no doubt.
Let me begin with the last: effect on me. The message of the bible gives me hope in loving saviour, comforts my fears, guides my life. Lamp unto my path thing.
Prophecy. Fulfilled prophecy. The very year of the birth of Messiah was predicted by Daniel.
Here is one example of archeology and prophecy confirming bible
Predictions/Discoveries/Facts Regarding Egypt
With its fascinating pyramids, fantastic treasures, awesome monuments, ancient temples, and luxurious cities, Egypt was one of the most amazing empires in all the world’s history. For example, the Great Pyramid Cheops at Giza towered over 480 feet and spread over thirteen acres. The Pyramids at Giza required over 2.5 million blocks of stone. Some blocks weighed 1.5 - 3 tons each. It took 120,000 workers twenty years to build the Pyramids. For 500 years the magnificent city of Memphis was Egypt’s capital. Today,Memphis is no more. It has been destroyed. The temples of Egypt have been plundered and the empire’s wealth is gone. Ezekiel’s prophecies regarding Egypt in Ezekiel 30:13 and 32:12, 15 have been precisely
fulfilled. The Rosetta Stone discovered by Napoleon’s armies in 1799 helped to unlock the secrets of the hieroglyphics and reveal the great battles between Ramesses II, King of Egypt and Hatusilli of the Hittites, exactly as the Bible described.
Predictions/Discoveries/Facts Regarding Jerusalem The Israeli prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah predicted Nebuchadnezzar’s (the King of Babylon) attack on Jerusalem (Jeremiah 27:6 and 32:29).
The Lachish Letters, discovered from 1932 – 1938, twenty four miles north of Beersheba, describe the attack of Nebuchadnezzar on Jerusalem in 587 B.C.
The David Stele, unearthed at Tel Dan in 1993 in northern Israel, confirms 1 Samuel 16:23 that David was indeed King of Israel.
The Dead Sea Scrolls, discovered by an Arab shepherd boy Mohammed El Dahib, in 1948 have proven to be one of the most significant finds of all times. These scrolls contain every Bible book of the Old Testament in whole or part. They date back to 125-150 years before Christ and could easily be dated to
the same time of Old Testament manuscripts Jesus quoted from. They are remarkably accurate in their transmission. There are no major variants between the manuscripts of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Bibles
we use today.
Throughout the centuries, the prophecies of the Bible and the archeological discoveries of scripture
prove the reliability and accuracy of God’s world.
Coherence I mean so many writers with unified message.
Preservation of texts despite ebb and flow of history.
Cant expand everything in this thread.
Now I'm the one going off topic. this is not a bible class.
No one will admit that bad people do bad things in the name of religion so I can get on with writing my hubs so I can earn a little residual income.
come on my atheist and agnostic friends lets take responsibility for crimes against humanity and do something about the Nigerian situation. A house is burning and we are arguing whose fire engine is authoritative. Out the fire. Contact Nigeria and help the children if the story is true.How can you tell my tone from posts? I never stated the Bible was completely wrong about historical facts. Modern novels blend history into a story all of the time. Jesus was not the only person born that year was he? If he was predicted to appear next year I'm sure your faith would choose someone to fill the role.
But you are correct, we are just butting heads and like my daddy used to say--two heads are better than one, even if one of them is a goat head.
The Nigerian problem is disturbing no matter the religious beliefs of the perpetrators. It is so sad.Standard practice at Hubpages religious forums.
Put on your fireproof suit and peril sensitive glasses before entering.
This is also standard practice here.
Responses that are related in any way to the topic of a thread or post are the exception rather than the rule in these forums
Don't be discouraged Glendon,
you're doing well!Eric I love your humor. I had to go to the bathroom after reading this!
I guess they are designed to handle occasional spill, just need to wash it afterwords
From the sound of it, a flood of biblical proportions may have been involved here.
Okay it is time for me to bow out for a while. If ya wanna read where I have been and how I ot here and what else you have not read then read some of my hubs such as:
I changed my mind. Don't read any of my hubs nor my comment, nor anyone elses comments if you are going to preconcieve that I am angry all the time or in anything that I have to say.....
See Ya!
I don't know what else to say that will incriminate my beliefs anymore that I apparently am doing now.
Good Luck Mark!For the record, my post was not intended to personally bash anybody. While I appreciate the aknowledgement, quoting me in reference to Guinevere is contrary to the spirit of the post.
I'm talking logical fallacies and how an argument for or against anything are not subject to emotional appeals or bad company fallacies.
Throwing spears at one another is counterproductive to the question and theme of the original thread.
Make a point, get shot down or praised move on to the next rebuttal and so forth.Omg this is all so technical now I am completely lost. So what is the outcome on these abused children that pulled deeply on my heart-strings? Is there agreement that someone has been abusing them?
no one cares. everyone just wants to sound smart and listen to themselves.
You are so right GT and that is extrememly sad, as I came here in the first place for the love of these kids.
empty can rattles the most! interwebz geniouses piss me off the most.
It has been hijacked several times. It does get back on topic then people talk christian again. What to do? What to do?
A way back someone mentioned that someone from a church should be held responsible and urgent action taken on the ground to protect children, maybe we could start there again?
I was trying to read what everyone was writing and get a gist of where they were coming from. Geez! Allot of people take all their knowledge from books and have no idea about experiencing things. Does anyone use common sense anymore. DON'T HAVE BELIEFS, they suck. They really do trap you in a square box. For goodness sake, get out of the box, it will drive you nuts, and everyone else with you.
Do you have any idea how much I want to swear my head off at the moment. Cuss cuss cuss cuss cuss ffffffffff!
Nothing has happened.
Some of the religious heavyweights have chimed in with their usual rhetoric.
I've discovered a few new religious people whose views I can respect because they can discuss topics rationally.
There's been a tiny glimmer of light that some preachers and ministers are making it their business to check out what other preachers and ministers are doing, in an effort to keep them on track.
I think that most people are of the opinion that small children are being horrible abused in Nigeria in the name of religion.
fierycj and accofranco accuse me of Nigeria bashing. They live there, and say that it's impossible for child witches to exist in Nigeria, because it's such a beautiful place. Apparently the documentaries, videos and pictures are all fakes, lies and it's all just a gigantic media beatup. HTheir friends agree with them.
So my gentle BlondePoet, nothing has changed. The children are still suffering.
Miss Blondepoet,
I'll bring you up to speed. Everyone agrees that this is a both a tragedy and a crime. It has, however, opened up the discussion of the legitimacy of religion, specifically the Christian religion. And thats where our argument has landed us so far.
Goldentoad,
I happen to love my smart-sounding and very eloquent manner of word smithing.
To Mr. Mark Knowles,
I'm gunnin' for you pal. I like your arguments and I am ultra jealous of your much cooler sunglasses picture. Welcome to Ender's Game baby!
I guess i'll pick the fight...atheism is the stupidest world view of all time. People who believe in this are illogical and dimwitted.I want to talk about michael jackson some more.
What is it with calling everybody Mr and Miss? No offence, I know its awfully cute as hell. But what is this, the frigging 17th Century.
Thanks enderw1ggins just all the talk on religion has me lost
What is it with calling everybody Mr and Miss? No offence, I know its awfully cute as hell. But what is this, the frigging 17th Century.
That's MUCH too good a topic to be buried here.
I hope you create a new thread with that title.
It will create a sensation!
Love your sense of humour. Thanks for your comments here.Mark,
Alright, I've been trying to pick a fight with you all day!
Just a response about the Pope. I'm not Catholic but i dig him anyhow. His response to this situation was a little too late but it was appropriate.
We'll I threw down the gauntlet earlier you can respond but i understand if your a little timid. We can have a humble contest if you would like but i warn you...I had a humble contest with Ghandi once. He's dead.Timid? Mark?
He's just being polite and not taking over this thread.
Nice opening salvo across the bows on your part though!
Like I said before:
1. Go to the religious forums main page.
2. Create a new thread with a provocative title challenging Mark about something. Your previous suggestion about athiests would be fine.
3. Start off the proceedings with your 4th best shot stating your case (save the others for later)
4. Respond to the barbs, arrows, and bouquets.
5. Rinse and repeat often.
good LuckLOL - I missed your earlier face-slapping. I am on GMT +1 and came back to find three pages of responses. Plus I have to fit work in somehow lol
I can do humble. Humble like a fox.
What is your point though? You dig the pope? Doesn't really change the fact that he is guaranteed to put his foot in it - too late, and there has been systemic abuse of children throughout the history of christianity by the clerics. This case in Nigeria is no different. The assumption that you are born worthless is the beginning of the problem.
sorry thats still an open wound buddy. he was right there...he almost made it!
I am a card carrying theologian if you have any questions about that though. I see that you are a supporter of the "lets beat up the Gnostics" conspiracy theory. Also a part of the Bible was rewritten for political gains "Davinci Code" posse.
I could maybe shed some light on a science called "textual criticism" if you would like.Trooper22,
Did you really link Wikipedia as a source!?
Ana Louis brings up a really valid point. Religions are a dime a dozen they all come in various shapes and sizes.
It's true, religion has very little to do with God. However, the practice of relationship between God and man is categorized as such.We now see three meanings of the word religion.
The first meaning is simply categorizing people of particular beliefs together. Not evil.
The second being, man religion. This is the type of religion that Jesus condemns. A self-righteous push others around leverage tool. This practice is looked upon as evil and self-gratifying.
The third takes a little more explaining. For those who do not believe in "God", lets imaging for a second that He does exist. We know that one of the attributes of God is that He is invisible. If God exists and He does desire a relationship with man then it would be prudent to assume that He would make communication possible. This "religion" is not evil.
Now lets talk about an "evil God" theory for a moment. Assuming that God exists and that He created everything, the fact would remain that He exists regardless of our own personal thoughts on morality.
Truth is neither a friend or enemy to anybody. Lets take a simple truth like the laws of gravity for instance. I think everybody agrees that gravity exists.
Gravity is an enemy to those who choose not to believe in it. Jumping off of a tall building expecting to float away will not change the outcome. Gravity is a friend to those who accept the reality of it. A skateboarder utilizes gravity to pump transitions and preform mind blowing stunts at incredible speed.
If God exists then our personal views have nothing to do with it. This is why arguments that appeal to emotion are invalid.Leden said
"The problem with using the Bible itself as a sole means for understanding the universe is flawed."
Of course. and I never said the sole means for understanding unniverse. No sir I said the only rule of faith and doctrine.
To understand universe we have:
Nature and revelation. Science and inspiration.Randy Godwin,
When arguing against a certain topic a general knowledge might help but assumptions never do.
Have you really never met an honest preacher? It seems that you equate the word preacher with dishonesty. This assumes that an honest preacher simply cannot exist in the context of your argument.
You also make mention of "Merely telling others to read something in which they have no confidence in and have already read anyway solves nothing."
On the contrary, there are men (religious and non-religious) who have dedicated their entire lives to studying the Bible. There is no quick once over and ya got it. Seriously, the Bible takes time. An easy method that I prescribe is "Christianity for Dummies". I'm not kidding!
The next problem in that statement is that you must have confidence in the material for it to be beneficial or credible. This is a confession of ignorance. It is extremely vital to know the world you live in and others world views before saying that "parts taken out, parts put in to suit the particular times."
The burden of proof is on you, was the Bible changed? Prove it, don't assume it. Bandwagon arguments carry about as much water as a duck in a shooting gallery.
I have read Origin of Species by Charles Darwin, The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins and many other books that conflict directly with my belief system. I also peruse the Koran and other religious texts. I prefer to read the "dummies" books because an overview of foundational beliefs and doctrine are rarely picked up by skimming a book. I'm a Christian and even I skim the Bible.
Welcome to Reading Rainbow with your host Ender!
Hi kids, pick up dummies books on religions and world views because understanding doesn't come easily.
Now, once again i need to put my "dood, i don't hate you or think you're and idiot" disclaimer here. I do agree that the most exposure that people have to Christians are usually when Christians do stupid things. But decent people rarely make headlines.
One last thing for both Eric and Ana. No religion claims that in order to be a good person you must be religious. This was a major fallacy in Richard Dawkins argument.Nope, I can honestly say I've never met an honest preacher. And your assumptions about my assumptions do not mean anything to me. I did not state there were no honest preachers, that was your assumption. Another assumption you have made is about the amount of time I spent reading the Bible. Or are you a prophet now too?
Just because people spend their lives studying and reading the Bible proves nothing. If it is so hard to understand how does one know they finally have the correct meaning? Who's to say? Certainly not you.
Christianity for Dummies? Not gonna touch that.
I assume you can prove the Bible hasn't been changed as you demand proof from me that it has. No I haven't read the original and neither have you. I have read the same books you have but we both have different takes on them it seems. This just proves my point about what one gets out of any book.
Hate me or not, no big deal. Do you handle snakes too?
Glendoncaba,
You should elaborate on some these subjects because they are certainly credible.
!.Prophecy: Which prophecies? Were they specific?
2.Continuity: How many people wrote the Bible text? From what walks of life? Were they able to converse with one another while writing?
3. Preservation: How was it preserved and how can we be sure that what is written is what was written?
4. Archaeology: How does archaeology prove the reliability of the Bible text?Time to get the facts together Nigerian child witches, what do we know so far that is solid?
Earnestshub,
I think Jesus was already executed for her crimes!
But seriously punishing somebody for somebody else's crimes? Bad idea.
Jewels,
I believe the topic is "Christianity sucks because Christians suck". Please, if i am misinformed begin the cussing now.Well there is certainly the major element of hypocracy in Christian fellowship as a whole.
You can go online and get a ticket to preach. On that darn website it actually talks about how to do an exorcism. Now how bloody stupid is that. I want heads. How does the idiot who created that website get away with it.
Why is there no regulation, accountable regulation to this? This is a Christian site. Someone has to take control of it.
There also seems to be a passing the buck mentality among Christian leaders/messengers/preachers. Nobody takes ownership for the stupidity of fellow preachers. Enderwiggins you at least gave me some sense of relief that you know of preachers looking out for each others shortcomings.
When it comes to the lives of innocence children, I don't give a continental what has happened in the past in the name of christianity, I don't give a flying f**ck. Intellectuals can explain all they damn well like. It's still fu**ed.
I want to see regulations imposed on giving license to preach and influence and demonize, destroy and manipulate innocent children.
These preachers in Nigeria are not SEEING demonic children, they are saying they do. It's a lie for financial gain, and it's at the expense of children.
It would appear that it's easy to give license to anything done in the name of God, and it appears Christians do get away with it.
Now a word to the wise and important God loving people. Clean up your own damn backyard before you dare try and save someone elses.
Here is the link to the Liberty Foundation Gospel Ministres lead by Helen Ukpabio.
http://helen-ukpabio.com/Through the grace of God this woman condones sticking nails into a little girls head. I'd like her head on a plate.
"Our Vision is to help liberate mankind from every yoke and bondage of the enemy through teaching of God's word in a clear and direct way and exposing the works of the devil and his deceptions in these last days.. Through the dynamic leadership of Evangelist (Mrs.) Helen Ukpabio, Liberty Gospel Church is growing by the day with branches all over Nigeria, Cameroun, Ghana and South Africa. Liberty Gospel Church was founded since 1992. We invite you to check out our locations and feel free to worship with us and experience God's grace."
This is the church locations with phone numbers and addresses, now what is next?
http://helen-ukpabio.com/location.htmRandy,
Your argument is foolish. You made the accusation, the burden of proof falls upon you. Once your argument is established then I can proceed to respond. It's the rules of argument, pal.
I know which verses, lines, and books of the bible were included or removed from the Bible. I have the explanations and the evidence that the Bible has been preserved throughout the ages. I will be happy to indulge once you get your argument together.
To answer your question simply. Yes i am well qualified to interpret the Bible and discuss Christian doctrine. Thats what i spend my life doing, it is what i have a degree in. I am a professional.
And stay in good spirits buddy, i like what you've got to say. Make fun of me, man!Earnestshub,
Good work buddy! Let's get em'!! We'll have a witch hunt of our own!!Nah, this is hubpages, we don't do witch hunts. It does not hurt to shown what exists.
This is paramount to show what does exist. I don't really want that woman's head but I do want her behind bars. Seriously this is what has to be stopped in the name of Christianity. I would really like Christians to take responsibility for what Christians do. I asked in a previous post a few pages ago whether the Pope was the head honcho, which he is not. He's the head of the Catholic arm of Christianity. Apparently people like this woman in Nigeria has no regulatory body except for the arm of the Law within a particular county or country. It appears Christianity is above the law if women like this are allowed to do what she does, condone sticking nails in little girls heads.
This is the witch hunt I want to see happen. I am probably asking for the impossible.
But can people who come on these forums and preach from their scriptures see why non-christians and fellow human beings get angry and distrust you and scoff at you?
Rany,
You are no fun. I'm simply asking you to back up your arguments. You made the statement. Prove it!
We can also take vote. I have no problems explaining my position on the validity of Bible text. As you can clearly see i invite query and criticism. So if anybody thinks that the burden of proof falls upon my self say so. Otherwise Randy, you will have to present your case for your argument to be admissible in this courtroom. You grouch.Constantine, among others have changes made to the Bible as you should know if you are indeed a professional. Mary Magdelene, who some think was Jesus's wife, was not at first called a "fallen woman." This came about later when the religious leaders didn't like her relationship with Jesus.
When the Spanish explorers wished to make the Arawak indians in the Caribbean slaves the pope reinterpreted the scriptures to mean it was allowed.
Now Mr. professional--well I don't know what you are a professional of--give me indisputable proof the Bible has never been changed,edited translated,books taken out, books put in, who was godly enough to make the decision and proof they didn't just say "hey, this sounds good to me."
Let me guess, ORUGood try Randy, but you need to cite references otherwise it's pure speculation. It sounds to me that you've been reading the "DaVinci Code" which is a classic case of bandwagon logic.
For the moment it's late but i shall tantelize your taste buds with a juicy bit of knowledge. My source?..the Bible itself.
St.Mary Magdalene just so happens to be one of the most honored figures in the Bible. The Catholic church honors her as one of Jesus' friends and disciples...hence SAINT Mary Magdalene.Here are some examples.
Matt. 27:55 She ministered to Jesus. Who is awesome enough to minister to Jesus?
Matt 27:56; John 19:25, 26 She was present at the crucifixion.
She was present at his burial and was the FIRST person to see Jesus resurrected.
This is straight out of the Bible that was supposedly rewritten to vilify St. Mary Magdalene.
Listen buddy, i'm not going to entertain you for even a moment longer. My college degree nor my character is in question. Your conclusions are elementary pop-culture propaganda. Your sense of humor is about as dry as a glass of cracker juice.
If other wish, i will continue my discourse on the validity of the Bible...but not for you. Now say something that means something or beat feet.
If you still wanna be friends thats cool!You stated you are a professional, no one asked you to volunteer that information. And you do entertain me with your rubbish. You demand answers but give none yourself. Anyone can claim to be a professional anything on the internet.
"My college degree nor my character is in question"
Are you kidding me? You show up four days ago and expect everyone to just say "oh yeah, enderwiggins is the real deal"?
You expect others to cite references but you expect to believed just on your word? Yep, you are Christian to the bone.
It may be late in Oregon but it's early in Georgia,
Tell it all brother.Ok Mister. I'll promise to show you my credentials if you promise to be my friend forever. My friends however argue honorably and aren't suspicious of people who don't act suspect. Oh, and they aren't grouches either.
As we have a man on the ground, this is the church address in Nigeria.
Behind Desam House
Off Ndidem Usang Iso Road
Calabar, Cross River State, Nigeria.Jewel,
Pastors and preachers are subject to state and federal laws of the land. The most any Christian can do is publicly denounce this behavior. The church is not a police nor a governmental body. It is unfortunate because i certainly would love to give that woman the beating of her life in the name of Jesus.Is that really all that can be done?
What about collectively creating a body of pastors and preachers to denounce this behavior? Why not do it more publicly?
I am open to ideas and am open to help do something. I don't want to be all talk, no action.
Maybe contact with local authorities in Cross River? I really don't know, I just feel sick doing nothing about it.
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