To all you Christians.

1. 61

   Sanctus Vesaniaposted 13 years ago

   Here's a couple of questions I have for the majority of you here who claim to be Christians.  I warn you, you won't like them.
   
   Question 1:  When you were saved, did you think;
   
   "I'm humbled that God chose to save me"
   
   or
   
   "Oh, thank God I made the RIGHT choice!"
   
   or
   
   "I throw out a bunch of Bible verses that have nothing to do with the topic."
   
   
   Question 2:  When someone offers hard evidence that ALL will be saved, but not during this age, what is your reaction?
   
   "I look it up to see if it's true"
   
   or
   
   "I believe them"
   
   or
   
   "I tell that person that they're misguided/evil/a devil, and need to spend more time with the Word."
   
   or
   
   "I quote Bible scripture completely out of context."
   
   Question 3:  If you gave the third or fourth answer, why is this?
   
   "Because I was taught this, and never bothered to question it"
   
   or
   
   "Because I was taught this, and taught that thinking is evil"
   
   or
   
   "Deep down inside I want certain people to burn in Hell for eternity.  Please, don't tell anyone that; I consider myself a very loving person!"

   replyreport
   1. 61

      tantrumposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Irony at its best! I love this !!!

      replyreport
   2. 60

      ediggityposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Question 1- I thought, dang now I have a lot of hard work ahead of me not to screw it up.
      
      Question 2- I don't quite understand.  I believe all will be saved who truly repent and have faith in Jesus.
      
      Question 3- does not apply.

      replyreport
   3. 83

      Rebecca E.posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Okay basically, these questions don't apply to every Christian, for some yes,but in all honesty God would have us rot in hell, any Christian should tell you this.  It's Jesus who saves. ( At least according to the lutheran church.
      
      And teh last two I love the irony, I love them, I find teh ones who spit otu scripture give all Christians a negative name.  They aren't taught although they will say they are.
      
      Just my litle corner of the universe here.
      
      But I must remeber this questions and options I love them!

      replyreport
   4. 56

      diegomaherposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Ok, firstly there are two different things involved here, salvation and judgement. Jesus promises salvation for all that believe and follow the commandments. The greatest comandment of all is to love God, and love everyone else as yourself. The natural presumption is that you love yourself in the first place. I think that many professed Christians don't necessarily love themselves or forgive others which can cause the discrepancies pointed to by the questions posed.
      
      Secondly, there is judgement, which is referred to in the bible at the end of one's life and at the end of this current "generation". The implication here is that people who love and fear God will live accordingly and be judged acceptable, and those who reject God and his gifts will be judged as wicked. The wicked cannot exist in the presence of Infinite Goodness and Eternal Love (in English we use the name God).

      replyreport
   5. 58

      LEFT HAND OF GODposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      1- it was a humbling thing to be called and chosen and I simply said yes.*
      
      *This was long before preachers made it a "bow your head, close your eyes and no peeking" kind of a thing; or "Let's be seeker friendly"
      
      2-"Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehinnom."
      
      I wonder if some will be annihilated because the word "destroy" is ἀπόλλυμι ä-po'l-lü-mē and it means to be abolished and cease to exist and is a finality. What is the point of endless torment?

      replyreport
   6. 59

      dutchman1951posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      A Poem for you, something I wrote in my Wiccan Days
      
      
      Yon Christian
      
      I can see you, yon Christian
      hiding there in the bush.
      You are parked with your Spy glass
      reared back on your touché
      
      And I think, oh dear Christian
      what great stories you will tell
      On Sunday good person
      of Fire from Hell
      
      Of Dogs left half-eaten
      of Babies cut open!
      My Gods oh kind Christian
      how you keep that mouth open
      
      you paint such a saintly picture
      and it is one whopper of a story.
      It is my reason for writing of this
      and it is my reason to worry.
      
      You struggle so, Christian
      to reach of your God
      you are shaken and you claim frightened
      but yet you try oh so hard!
      
      To blame me for your worldly failure
      your "in-aptness" in Christ
      but the problem lays in your Religionist outlook
      and in the Honesty with-in your own life
      
      You follow a book,
      all the right words to tell you, you failed
      you wear it like a prisoners chain
      one you'd find in some dark jail.
      
      You wear it for your personal nobility
      as you search for God like fame
      and each time you fall from the Devine
      you use others as your blame.
      
      
      Next, you cloud the subject emphasis, as you
      confidently claim,
      Demonic Spirit and me for your fair
      then you blindly speak of your hatred and your lies
      and toss your godly threats in the air
      
      But I refuse to enter into this realm
      you see, I will not entertain the Foolish
      The focus, is returned back to you my friend
      and your actions are really quite useless
      
      So please remember me Christian,
      for I am not in your fight
      I am not of your failures in God
      from your choices in Life
      
      I will do absolutely nothing,
      To help you or to hinder
      See Christian, your Self-discipline to follow
      Is your very own to consider?
      
      For I am not there each day, when you
      run through red lights.
      I am not part of your decision to cheat on your Wife!
      I am not there to stop you,
      when "YOU" forget to kneel or to pray
      
      Look around, all knowing person
      you alone, fail every day!
      
      So please spread the lie Christian
      for this you do elegantly well
      and by all means, please
      tell a Witch about "your" Christianized hell
      
      But mark this in Sincerity
      for if your Story is true?
      Then, “you” alone stand at your maker,
      all alone Christian, just you!
      
      
      -jonathan falconer re-sh
      
      
      (Do Not Copy, no Permissions are implied or given.
      All copy rightd property of Author)

      replyreport
   7. 0

      Just Joyceposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      For whatever it's worth, in the Eastern Orthodox Church, we don't view salvation as a one-time emotional/spiritual event. Our soteriology places a much greater emphasis on theosis. Salvation is, in our theology, the on-going process of becoming free of our hamartía ("missing the mark"-ness, or "falling short-ness"; clearly it only mostly translates from the Greek) and being further and further united with the Trinity.
      
      So, each your first two options, humbled gratitude and human decision, are in there in some form since theosis requires I live out the process begun in the incarnation by continued participation in the sacraments, but it's neither one exhaustively.
      
      As to Scripture, if I were feeling truly bold, I'd argue that Scripture came after the fact when it comes soteriology; the incarnation, crucifixion and resurrection clearly pre-date the scriptural records of those same events, and the sacramental traditions honoring and perpetuating them were in place before the Scriptural canon was. So, while not unimportant, Holy Scripture is certainly not the sole mechanism upon which to base views about salvation either.
      
      
      I'd like to know what qualifies as hard evidence in this case since the question assumes non-universal salvation and then proposes potential "hard evidence" of universal (if not timely) salvation. Is it Scripture? Which interpretation? (For that matter, which translation?) Tradition? Whose? 
      
      Though, personally, I hope that something like C.S. Lewis' The Great Divorce manifests. The Orthodox Church is "amillenialist", holding to the idea that the thousand years mentioned in Revelation metaphorically/allegorically refers to the (current) age of the Church, and that final judgment is in the second coming of Christ. His eternal presence will be bliss to those that love him, and torture to those that do not. The Church doesn't teach that a man may have a change of heart in the next age, but it doesn't teach that he can't either. So, I'm hopeful.

      replyreport
      1. 68

         Make Moneyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         As an RC I'd say ditto.  But you said it much better than I could have.

         replyreport
   8. 0

      thetruthhurts2009posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Answer 1 There is NO greater love. I can hardly  put it into words, what God has done for me, He has made me a new creation. The verse for me that closely grasps it is John 14:27. If you can answer this by using any of the available choices, you might want to check yourself.
      
      Answer 2 To those who claim such things please explain the Old testament punishment of sin in general, Why? Sodom and Gomorrah, the Flood of Noah and the husband and wife from the book of Acts and the book of Revelation, heck Jesus’ own words including his parables(which he said only His followers would fully understand). It seems like someone trying to force new age thinking into the word of God and they probably also believe the bible is full of “errors” and “contradictions” and only trust what fits what they want to believe to be true. Which is very typical of persons and religious cults claiming to be Christians(with secret knowledge that God “forgot” to mention, and assuming they or their religion knows better)but taking only parts of scripture, but the denying the it's foundation the word of God. I try not to give too much credence to such ideas, because one day soon a righteous Judge will separate the weeds from the wheat.
      
      Answer 3 Because I believe in a loving and just God. The God of the bible. Jesus is our ark of Salvation, I’m onboard. Are you?

      replyreport
   9. 90

      Bibowenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      You seem to be overly sensitive to criticism but I have to tell you that this is an awful survey and that if you had turned this in to the research methods course I took in college, you would certainly have received an F.
      
      I guess we should now expect the lecture how that it's hateful to tell you that you should receive an "F" for your sub average survey of Christian opinion...

      replyreport
      1. 59

         yes2truthposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Apart from Sanctus Vesania I have not seen any Christian comments on this thread at all. Mostly snake in the grass avoidance of the questions!
         
         What makes it an awful survey is that you haven't got any Godly Spiritual answers to it.
         
         Notice it's Christian opinion that matters, and not The Truth.

         replyreport
         1. 59

            sooner than laterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            This is an inside look at how non believers think. scary. Thats like archeologists don't look at any biblical evidence that supports the Bible- oh say like the many writen accounts of Joseph, the petrified trees stacked through "60 million" years of strata and so on.

            replyreport
         2. 62

            atomswifeyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Some of us prefer not to answer someone clearly not seeking answers.
            The agenda here is evident in how the questions are posed.

            replyreport
         3. 0

            Just Joyceposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I'm not looking to pick a fight or argue, but I do resent that a little. I tried to provide honest feedback both with my personal opinion and in keeping with the doctrines of my church, even though there were not options that accounted for them in the original questions.

            replyreport
            1. 59

               yes2truthposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               The Truth is not a personal opinion. Only men and women of religion have personal opinions when it comes to the Holy Scriptures.
               
               The Truth is not a doctrine either. Only Bible intellectuals with head knowledge obsess over doctrines. These doctrines are usually based upon vain philosophies.

               replyreport
      2. 59

         sooner than laterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         exactly

         replyreport
   10. 60

       nikki1posted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I chose to call myself a believer. I chose to be a believe because. I have in Christ. I have peace in my heart. You can hurt, however praying for your enemy is a good way to doing your pain. Not acting on it. Wow.. deep questions. If you believe in God, talk to your church pastor about your concerns.
       As well as your family. They can help sort these matter out, enocuragingly.. :-). Believers look for the light at the end of the storm.. the rainbow.

       replyreport
   11. 59

       mobilephone guideposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       i thought, kthxbye
       i thought... well... ok
       i want all people to burn. we deserve the same treatment. everyone is equal.
       
       well, i can think i'm a christian.

       replyreport
       1. 59

          sooner than laterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          not in our actions we are not.

          replyreport
   12. 60

       Richard VanIngramposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Cute.  But no more than cute. 
       
       When you wish to seriously ask a question of any group, Christian, Pagan, Atheist, whatever, why don't you try to do so in a way that opens a discussion, not a stand-up monologue?
       
       Oh.  You're being ironic.  Also cute.  Notice how you answer the questions for me before I even get a word out of my own mouth -- and as if these would be the answers I'd give to any of these questions.  If you singled out my pagan friends and did this, we'd call you prejudiced or at least incapable of thinking outside sterotypes born of anger or ignorance . . . or maybe unfortunate exposure to a certain type of Christian -- all too real -- who eats up time on the airwaves aggrandizing himself and never really talking about theology.
       
       If this latter type of "Christian" was your mark, boy did you show them up here.  Bravo.  Feel better?  Great challenge for your intellect, wasn't it?  Or are you just left with that feeling you get after any other hollow victory?  It isn't as if your irony just knocked down Christianity; it just poked a hole in some irritating idiots and their weird beliefs.  Which is fairly easy.  Been doing it myself since I was 5.  Got bored with it at age 12 and moved on to bigger game.
       
       God's judgment is God's business.  It isn't as if anyone "deserves" to "go to heaven" -- or whatever.  God, if there is God, is as infinitely Merciful as He is Just; if there is an afterlife, He will decide who will spend it doing what where, and for how long, and no one here, Christian, Atheist, Pagan, Jew, whatever, has a clue what His decision will be for anyone.  Ever.
       
       Our business is figuring out how to live decent lives here and now, how to treat our fellow humans and our world with compassion and recognition of inherent worth.  It's about figuring out how we can be merciful and just ourselves.  All without any worry about being "rewarded" or "punished," all done so we can attempt to live together as people trying to be good.
       
       It's serious business.  It's worth more than a rimshot after a few hastily scrawled statements designed to inspire a lot of pointless arguments and comments.

       replyreport
       1. 59

          yes2truthposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          The comment was aimed at those who claimed to be Christians. By what you have stated here you obviously are not, so why did you bother trying to answer?

          replyreport
          1. 60

             Richard VanIngramposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             I am a Christian.  An Episcopalian, a High Church Anglican.  A convert.  I say the Nicene Creed with a straight face and mean every word.
             
             Whether I am a Christian acceptable to God is between me and God, not between me and whoever you are.  God has been known to use some pretty strange people to accomplish his work -- who are you to reject me?
             
             "If he is not against me, he is for me."

             replyreport
             1. 59

                yes2truthposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Well I would call you a man of religion, not a Christian. And here's the bottom line - nothing you said in your diatribe gave me any inkling that you were a Christian. Hats and the way they fit come to mind.

                replyreport
                1. 60

                   Richard VanIngramposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                   I am a man of religion, a religion called Christianity.
                   
                   Perhaps there are more kinds of Christian than you are aware of -- if you are open to truth and seeking truth, don't be so fast to reject it, whatever the source.
                   
                   You miss a lot that way.
                   
                   This very divisiveness and anger towards one's fellow believers is precisely why many people reject the Christ and never really hear anything he taught or lived while here.  There are many people watching this conversation between the two of us waiting for it to turn into an "I'm the real Christian" wrestling match.  All so they can point and say, "See what kind of people THEY are?  I want nothing to do with THAT."
                   
                   And I don't blame them.  Christianity is allegedly a religion of love and the first thing a Christian had to say on this board to me, a fellow Christian, was hardly loving or accepting or even vaguely tolerant.  I can only imagine what has been said to non-Christians.
                   
                   Jesus warned us of being Pharisaical -- of keeping up outward appearances while failing to live up to the spirit of the law in our hearts and minds, in our motivations and lives.  It isn't enough to appear Christian, or anything else -- one must be authentic, loving, accepting, even tolerant.  If we Christians cannot do that with one another, we are worthless to God.  We will bring the Christ into disrepute in the eyes of the world -- and it will be our fault we drove people away from what truth there is to be found in Christianity.
                   
                   Perhaps you'd fault me for my language, my turns of phrase in my posts here: A writer, yes2truth, addresses an audience and if he wishes to be heard, he addresses that audience in the language that audience comprehends.  "I have become all things to all men...."  My task is never to wave a fist in the face of others and be angry at them for what they believe, but, instead, to invite them to explore and allow me to share what I believe as well.
                   
                   The Christ did not come to Earth and hang around with the allegedly "holy."  He got his hands dirty.  He spent his days with thieves and extortionists (money changers) and whores and the unclean -- not because he felt himself superior to them, but because he loved them, he cared for them, he recognized their value.  He wanted to awaken them so they could see their own value themselves.  I am sure he did not go out of his way to stick out like a sore thumb, he used their language, their terms. 
                   
                   But, as I recall, he was often accused of being a great sinner because of the company he kept and with whom he chose to speak, and how.  "If the hat fits," and all that. 
                   
                   I'm not here to fight with you over "who's the better or more real Christian."  Congratulations.  You win.  Now, let's get on with doing what we were called to do, whatever that is.  I work to be acceptable in the eyes of God, not acceptable in the eyes of any human.  If I am not acceptable to you, that is fine.  Point taken.  But I wasn't trying to gain your acceptance to begin with, just speak the truth as best as I can.
                   
                   That's all.

                   replyreport
                   1. 59

                      yes2truthposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      I am not here to fight either, but what I find generally is that others want to fight with me by countering The Truth with their religious intellectual nonsense. All of it unbiblical.
                      
                      "I am a man of religion, a religion called Christianity."
                      
                      Christianity is not a religion and that's my point. If you profess to be a true follower of The Lord then you need to get yourself out of religion and become His follower not their follower. You cannot serve two masters.

                      replyreport
2. 85

   earnestshubposted 13 years ago

   I like the attitude that says anyone who does not read the book or did not arrive at the same conclusions I have from it, will rot in hell!

   replyreport
3. 0

   cosetteposted 13 years ago

   after a while wouldn't you just become accustomed to rotting and whatnot; say, after the first hundred years?

   replyreport
4. 0

   TMinutposted 13 years ago

   Question 1:
   Since about three years ago, I can be found looking at other people and wondering, "Why me? There's nothing about me, why should I know and not him, or her, or them?" Jesus told someone in the bible, when asked something like that, "What's it to you? YOU follow me," so I just do.
   
   Question 2:
   I looked it up and saw that it was true.
   
   Question 3 (doesn't apply but still):
   I was raised an atheist, 'protected' from all things religious, christian, spiritual. Also we were NEVER allowed to accept anything, ever, at all from anyone without considering all sides, considering the source, and what they might have to gain from telling us. Not from teachers, friends, or even them. So when I first heard, I questioned everything I was told.

   replyreport
   1. 60

      ediggityposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      My parent was atheist also.  I was originally taught we came from monkeys.  LOL

      replyreport
5. 61

   Sanctus Vesaniaposted 13 years ago

   Relying on yourself, or on Jesus?
   
   
   
   But only in this age, or the age to come as well?
   
   
   
   Do you believe that certain people will burn in Hell for all eternity? 
   
   
   
   No, according to Christians, you will feel unbearable pain forever and ever and ever and ever and *shot*

   replyreport
   1. 60

      ediggityposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      1. Myself.  Jesus already did his part. 
      
      2. In all ages.  I will stand before GOD almighty and he will judge me based on my fruit and works.  Hopefully he's in a good mood that day.
      
      3. You should say according to some Christians. That is a description according to the BIBLE.  I believe that will happen to me, but I can't say that will happen to you.  GOD will Judge each of us individually, and he will have the final say.

      replyreport
      1. 0

         cosetteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         i hope i at least get an Honorable Mention
         
         

         replyreport
         1. 61

            tantrumposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            

            replyreport
         2. 61

            Sanctus Vesaniaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I laughed. 

            replyreport
         3. 60

            ediggityposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            If you really made that you should.  Looks tasty.

            replyreport
6. 61

   Sanctus Vesaniaposted 13 years ago

   Do tell me, what happens when you stumble?  Will Jesus be there to pick you up?  Remember, you just said that you rely on yourself.

   replyreport
   1. 60

      ediggityposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      If I stumble all I can do is ask for forgiveness.  Even what were supposed to be the most faithful stumbled. Judas and Peter just as an example, but that is the whole point.  There was only one perfect person, and that was GOD's son.  Lasty, Jesus is always there to pick you up.  GOD is who is going to judge.

      replyreport
      1. 60

         ionericeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Isn't Gawd and Jesus the same entity?

         replyreport
         1. 59

            yes2truthposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            No

            replyreport
7. 85

   earnestshubposted 13 years ago

   No sky fairy will be passing judgment on any man.

   replyreport
   1. 61

      Sanctus Vesaniaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Do you think to yourself, "If I tell them to stop believing something I don't like, just long enough, they'll stop believing it!"
      
      Because the way you bounce into these threads makes me wonder.

      replyreport
8. 0

   TMinutposted 13 years ago

   cosette, that's funny!

   replyreport
9. 85

   earnestshubposted 13 years ago

   I see the fruits of your good works Cosette!

   replyreport
10. 0

    cosetteposted 13 years ago

    haha...i'll probably burn for that one for sure

    replyreport
    1. 61

       Sanctus Vesaniaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I like to think that God has a sense of humor.

       replyreport
    2. 85

       earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       That fruiterer has a decent sense of humor!

       replyreport
11. 0

    TMinutposted 13 years ago

    LHofG, is the word for eternal truly not necessarily eternal? And the word for punishment means correction as well as punishment, true? Do you know? I don't speak these languages but there are claims everywhere to back every point of view.

    replyreport
12. 0

    TMinutposted 13 years ago

    If eternal punishment isn't right, then eternal life isn't either. Or may not be, depending on the words used.
    
    Eternal separation from God would happen if someone is annihilated; then only those who love I AM would be there with "him", nobody would be there just because they were afraid of being tortured forever. Not that they will be there anyway.

    replyreport
13. 58

    LEFT HAND OF GODposted 13 years ago

    It is interesting to me that even society annihilates the incorrigible ones that are among us. We do not want them is our presence either.

    replyreport
14. 0

    TMinutposted 13 years ago

    Sounds reasonable to me, no problem except...how do we ever know someone is truly incorrigible?

    replyreport
    1. 58

       Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

           YA  JUST  DON"T KNOW  WHAT  YA  DON"T  KNOW!!  YA  KNOW????

       replyreport
    2. 58

       LEFT HAND OF GODposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       The definition is as follows.
       
       Definitions of incorrigible on the Web:
       
           * impervious to correction by punishment
             wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
       
       : incapable of being corrected or amended: as a (1) : not reformable : depraved (2) : delinquent b : not manageable : unruly c : unalterable, inveterate
       
       Don't know about you but I can figure this out about people.
       And yes, I know it.

       replyreport
15. 68

    aka-djposted 13 years ago

    I guess Jesus didn't REALLY mean "everlasting", but a temporary fire.

    replyreport
    1. 58

       LEFT HAND OF GODposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       The fire does not go out, correct.
       The fire is for destruction, that is why Jesus said "destroy the body and the soul"...it means to abolish it forever.

       replyreport
16. 58

    Jeramiposted 13 years ago

    @  Dutchman    absolutely fantastic poen
    
         And SOoo true

    replyreport
17. 0

    TMinutposted 13 years ago

    Since satan is supposed to be loosed again after a thousand year reign, it's apparently not the end of the story. Fire still keeps going for the latest that are headed there even though the ones already tossed in are destroyed?
    
    Hard to reconcile this with all the verses about every knee shall bow, are they annihilated or enlightened?

    replyreport
    1. 0

       cosetteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       why let Satan out of 'prison'? that's worse than letting Charles Manson or Ted Bundy out. just execute him and be done with it.

       replyreport
       1. 58

          Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             That sounds real easy.......   I bet if it was your job you couldn't do much better with what He got to deal with.

          replyreport
          1. 0

             cosetteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             i know, wasn't that great?
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             haha, no but it's really quite creative!
             
             
             
             
             
             
             this just made me wonder...if Satan did die, where would he go?

             replyreport
    2. 58

       Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

           If YOU are going to take scripture literal then you would have to beleive that   EVERY   KNEE   SHALL  bow!!
       
           EVERY indicates ALL  in other words even the sinners are included!!!!   Every  SINNER    ME YOU  AND  EVERBODY. 
       
       
           When do we take it litteral and when do we not???
       
           I vote  litterally on this one

       replyreport
18. 61

    Sanctus Vesaniaposted 13 years ago

    Agelasting.  Do you honestly like the notion that God could be a complete an utter psychopath just because someone made the wrong choice?
    
    Consider this.  God is called our Father (speaking to Christians here, Atheists, ignore this.) 
    
    Parents, when your child does something wrong, do you A.) Discipline them  B.)Let it slide  C.) Torture them for a very long time  D.) Kill them.
    
    Most parents will probably choose A.) and maybe B.)  If they choose C, or D, then something is seriously wrong with them.
    
    But according to the Christian religion, God will in fact do C.)  He will torture people for all eternity, not just people, but his own creations, because they made the wrong choice.

    replyreport
    1. 60

       ediggityposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I would equate "just People" and "own creations" to just another thing created by GOD.  The fact is GOD's children will remain safe and have eternal life.  Those people/things that are not GOD's children will be at the mercy of him.  Comparing parental punishments and praise given by GOD is feasible only if the comparison is actually partnered with his true children.  Unfortunately, not every person is GOD's child.  I wish they were.  I'd like to see everyone up there.

       replyreport
19. 0

    sneakorocksolidposted 13 years ago

    Two,Two,NA.

    replyreport
20. 59

    sooner than laterposted 13 years ago

    Time will reveal what God's intentions are for mankind. I hope it is "sooner than later".
    
    that being said- I look forward to the day where I take new flesh and live for eternity.
    
    I look forward to exploring the heavens, meeting my creator and being absent of ignorant questions like this one.

    replyreport
    1. 0

       thetruthhurts2009posted 13 years agoin reply to this

       lol me too!

       replyreport
21. 59

    sooner than laterposted 13 years ago

    truth be told, I hope we all change our ways and make it. there is enough room.
    
    I wonder- do atheists believe that the dead become as though they never existed?
    
    If that is the case, I am surprised that they hold even the least of moral standards. If life is but a short journey, why not really live it up? Sin is fun, even brutality is fun- otherwise we wouldn't have video games where we get to pretend.
    
    well the day of crazy life is coming. one major global event could change everything.
    
    I have seen some major hostility towards believers- just gives me a sign of the time.

    replyreport
    1. 0

       thetruthhurts2009posted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Indeed.

       replyreport
22. 61

    Sanctus Vesaniaposted 13 years ago

    truthhurts2009 - If you believe that the reconciliation of all things is false, how do you explain away the following verses?
    
    1 Tim 4:10 - 10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
    
    
    John 6:38-40  38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    
    39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    
    40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    
    
    John 6:43=47  43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
    
    44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    
    45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
    
    46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
    
    47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
    
    
    John 6:63-66 63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
    
    64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
    
    65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
    
    66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
    
    
    1 Corinthians 3:13-15 13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    
    14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    
    15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
    
    
    Romans 11:25-27 25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    
    26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    
    27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    
    And finally
    
    Ezekiel 16:55 55When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.
    
    
    Yes, there will be chastisement, and discipline, but to say that God will torture people for so long and so horribly that these people will beg for death is complete blasphemy. 
    
    We condemn those of the world who practice torture, but many preach that God is a torturer of the highest degree, and they condone this.

    replyreport
    1. 59

       sooner than laterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       How is gold forged Sanctus?
       
       impurities are pured by fire. God is just, and we all will burn to some degree- because no un pure thing will enter the gates of heaven.

       replyreport
       1. 0

          thetruthhurts2009posted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Yes Siree!

          replyreport
23. 59

    sooner than laterposted 13 years ago

    some will burn to an utter end. not burn eternally.

    replyreport
24. 61

    Sanctus Vesaniaposted 13 years ago

    I never said that God won't discipline/chastise.  But there is a huge difference between discipline/chastisement, and cruel eternal never ending torture.

    replyreport
    1. 58

       LEFT HAND OF GODposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       What about annihilation for the incorrigible?
       
       You have to face the scriptures I mentioned where Jesus said "fear the ONE who can DESTROY (abolish) both body and soul"
       
       He spoke no idle words.

       replyreport
       1. 59

          sooner than laterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Matt 10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

          replyreport
          1. 58

             LEFT HAND OF GODposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             I think that is what I said?....she knows I quoted the whole thing earlier.

             replyreport
             1. 59

                sooner than laterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                No, that is what you said- I just put the scripture there to look at and for people to find. not to correct you.

                replyreport
    2. 59

       sooner than laterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       each is burned according to their sins. The idea that every person will go to heaven through hell fire is not correct though. many burn to an end and are as if "they never existed"

       replyreport
25. 61

    Sanctus Vesaniaposted 13 years ago

    Hmm, interesting.  So I suppose all the scriptures where God states that He will save all don't count?
    
    Is God weak?
    
    those of the Christian religion believe that God is incapable of doing things unless mankind helps Him.
    
    Am I in the wrong because I believe that God can and will achieve His desire, and that desire is not "torture people for all eternity, or annihilate them"?
    
    Answer:  No.

    replyreport
    1. 58

       LEFT HAND OF GODposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       You have to deal with what Jesus said first
       
       There is a reason for it and all else must be looked at in light of His words in that verse because HE told us to have FEAR!!! FEAR!!! FEAR!!!...of the ONE who could abolish us....no getting around it.
       
       Not saying your heart is no in the right place at all...just saying that some may have to be annihilated, they will not exist anymore so they will feel nothing.
       
       Again, if you cannot be corrected, why keep you around?

       replyreport
26. 61

    Sanctus Vesaniaposted 13 years ago

    Anyway, everyone who participated in this thread, thank you for proving my hypothesis correct.  I'll be bowing out now, not because I'm wrong, but because explaining things is like hitting my head against a brick wall.
    
    And that's bad

    replyreport
    1. 58

       LEFT HAND OF GODposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       So you will not address what Jesus said eh?

       replyreport
27. 58

    LEFT HAND OF GODposted 13 years ago

    It is written that HE is able to save to the uttermost them that believe in HIM...them that do not, well?
    
    True, HE is the Savior of all mankind, especially to them that believe.
    
    So you have a Savior of all mankind who is available to save all right.
    The especially part is what needs to be looked at in light of the availability part.
    
    HE can and will save all who believe. HE has not saved anyone who does not all throughout history.
    When they come to believe only HE knows, some are incorrigible.

    replyreport
28. 0

    ralwusposted 13 years ago

    Most men look to what is right for them. Few search for the truth.

    replyreport
    1. 90

       Bibowenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I think it was Churchill that said, "Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on."

       replyreport
       1. 62

          atomswifeyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          leaning on his own understanding man continues to do this. But it doesn't surprise me, why do you think they invented neon lights for giant bulletin boards? lol

          replyreport
       2. 76

          glendoncabaposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Hi bibowen:
          
          I find that the OP and friend, especially the friend, does not conduct open discussions.  They just want to say their 'truth' and be over with it.
          
          I wonder if you can convince them to listen.

          replyreport
29. 0

    TMinutposted 13 years ago

    You have to face the scriptures I mentioned where Jesus said "fear the ONE who can DESTROY (abolish) both body and soul"
    
    The one who CAN, did it say he will? Or is that to show just what power you're (in general, his audience, not you necessarily) ignoring?

    replyreport
    1. 59

       yes2truthposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       You must mean The Devil then?

       replyreport
       1. 0

          TMinutposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          What are you talking about? The person was quoting Jesus talking about God. Or do you mean the devil is the one who would be ignoring the power of God in that scenario?

          replyreport
          1. 59

             yes2truthposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             1) The Godhead is not one.
             
             2) God is not the Destroyer.
             
             3) The Destroyer is one of Satan's names.
             
             4) You are assuming Jesus is talking about God.

             replyreport
             1. 62

                atomswifeyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                satan cannot destroy the soul
                he was not the one Jesus was talking about in that scripture

                replyreport
                1. 59

                   yes2truthposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                   Yes he can - souls die.
                   
                   A soul is a living breathing being. It does not have immortality. The concept of the immortal soul is just another papist Roman Catholic satanic lie.
                   
                   You say you believe in God's Holy Word, so believe this:
                   
                   Ezek 18:4 (KJV) Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
                   
                   Ezek 18:20 (KJV) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
                   
                   The Lord was definitely referring to the Devil in this verse for he is the destroyer. The Godhead are the creators.

                   replyreport
30. 0

    ralwusposted 13 years ago

    Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.

    replyreport
31. 61

    lbtraderposted 13 years ago

    Look at it this way Sanctus....
    
    Sure I believe in God but I live in a world where mortals cast spells along subjective lines.
    
    You want me to believe that you have a better method of curing my ills. Well bring it...
    
    What's your point....your science has done nothing for me. Your opinions about how their is only nonsense to be found in the ethereal has done nothing for me but make me lose some hope that there may be something more to being than just being.
    
    If you have a point...
    
    Make it...
    
    Save me...
    
    Otherwise i'll keep my freedom of choice and my freedom to dream about a single overlord and not a caste of overlords who would turn me into a serf.
    
    
    Bring it.

    replyreport
32. 60

    darrininthedenposted 13 years ago

    Truth is if you accept Christ as your saviour, believe He rose from the dead, and in that process defeated Hell, and that you confess He is Lord.  YOU WILL BE SAVED.  Christianity is simple, religion is not.  To all of you who mock Christ, your end is your choice.  To humble ourselves before the Lord is not easy, we humans are odd, and make life miserable for ourselves. 
    
    I find it amusing that so many people try to deny the Christ, some would want to believe we come from monkeys, or an accidental bang in the cosmos...
    
    The Bible cannot be anything but true, who would write a story about a King who became a servant, who gave up His life for all, not just people he "liked" but for all of you. 
    
    I am thankful I have peace in my life, I know where I am going when I die, as for the rest of you, I don't know, but you can't say I didn't warn you.

    replyreport
    1. 59

       mobilephone guideposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       ok, good for you. now leave us alone

       replyreport
    2. 60

       ionericeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       <<<<Truth is if you accept Christ as your saviour, believe He rose from the dead, and in that process defeated Hell, and that you confess He is Lord.  YOU WILL BE SAVED.>>>> 
       
       Saved from what?  There is no place in the belly of the earth called Hell.
       
       <<<Christianity is simple, religion is not.>>>>
       
       Both Christianity and all religions are basically the same thing.  They are all based on ancient superstitions, ignorance and lies.
       
       <<<<I find it amusing that so many people try to deny the Christ,>>>>
       
       That would be two thirds of the people on this planet.
       
       <<<< some would want to believe we come from monkeys,>>>> 
       
       That statement came from a Christian theologian.  Charles Darwin in “The Origin of Species” stated that we all came from a common ancestor.
       
       <<<<The Bible cannot be anything but true,>>>>
       
       The bible that was put together by the Catholic Church is true only because it states that it’s true.  If it’s contents is true then all of the books that was left out are also true because they were all written within in the same period of time.
       
       <<<<who would write a story about a King who became a servant, who gave up His life for all, not just people he "liked" but for all of you.>>>> 
       
       This is the story of Buddha who chose to go from riches to rags, becoming a servant of the people.
       
       <<<<I am thankful I have peace in my life, I know where I am going when I die, as for the rest of you, I don't know, but you can't say I didn't warn you.>>>>
       
       As an Agnostic I too have peace in my life and when I die my bodies is going into the ground where it will rot and the same thing is going to happen to you.  There isn’t any reason for you to warn anybody about Jebus and Christianity because most non-believers in this country came out of the Church after being enlightened.

       replyreport
33. 58

    Valerie Fposted 13 years ago

    My answers to the first two questions are both #1.

    replyreport
34. 60

    Cranooposted 13 years ago

    It's going to be fun sitting on nice comfy chair watching all you noobs gettin thrown into hell!
    
    Oh and I didn't say it God did.
    
    And yes I talked to him last night and he did say it!
    
    

    replyreport
    1. 59

       marinealways24posted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Are you a prophet?

       replyreport