Does prayer work?

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   vrecccposted 17 years ago

   Mark, I don't know.

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   vrecccposted 17 years ago

   I respect that your belief doesn't include, mmm, a creator let's say. Belief, or not, in a higher power is a very personal thing and shouldn't be judged by others. We do disagree on this.
   
   However, where we agree wholehearted is that we are all part of a single organism. Based on this belief, I don't see how it is arrogant to be concerned with my own well-being. If you care about the system, and the health of the system depends somewhat on your health, then you should have a very healthly concern for... ah... your health. (too many 'health's in that sentence). Of course, this should be should measured with an even greater concern for the health of others. Be only concerned for yourself is obviously selfish and arrogant.
   
   Jonathan

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   Mark Knowlesposted 17 years ago

   Oh - don't get me wrong - I absolutely respect your belief in whatever you choose to believe in - as long as you don't try and get me to believe it too.
   
   I think where we really differ is on how important we are in the whole system. I believe I am no more important than a speck of dust.

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   Mishaposted 17 years ago

   Mark,
   
   Among my fuzzy feelings is one that tells something like - the World (or God or Nature) gives us what we believe into. For example - if we believe people are bad, we have bad people around. If we believe people are good - we have good people around.
   
   I had many chances to see this in work in real world. The thing that really bothers me, and I don't have an answer to it - what if it works the same way in relation to after death? And those who believe in hell go to hell, and those who believe in dirt - to dirt...
   
   Sorry, it is probably not very clear, cause I did not finalize this for myself, and I don't have Jenny or Sandra handy to put this nicely into words for me

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      sandra rinckposted 17 years agoin reply to this

      percisly, accept for maybe the part about Hell, being who would chose to go to a place like that, I don't know.  Unless...they are piromaniacs or something, or they are frozen in the tundra and wishing for a place to thaw them out or something.  lol. Imagine the sting, eewww.

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   Mark Knowlesposted 17 years ago

   I have no idea, Misha - I just know that we are part of a VAST system - and we are pretty insignificant. I have no idea if there is a hell or heaven. I do know we decompose and return to dirt - that is a measurable fact. Whether there is some other part of us that goes on somewhere else is open to debate

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   knolyourselfposted 17 years ago

   Out-of-body experience may make the case. Thinking in the afterlife one has to make decisions like here. Maybe can only make based on what one already or
   only knows.

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   vrecccposted 17 years ago

   There have been great attempts at proving the existence of God, including my favorite from Hatcher:
   
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_S._Hatcher
   
   However, I think in the end, if someone isn't convinced then that is just how it is and we shouldn't worry about convincing them.

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      sandra rinckposted 17 years agoin reply to this

      I second that notion.

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   Mishaposted 17 years ago

   As for me - I am not convincing anybody -  and I'm posting here in an attempt to clarify my own beliefs, which I'm having enough of hard time trying to understand myself

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      sandra rinckposted 17 years agoin reply to this

      what do you believe?

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         Mishaposted 17 years agoin reply to this

         I don't think you are asking about the whole system of beliefs, and I can't put them all on paper anyway
         
         As for the prayer - I don't think it works in a traditional meaning used in Western culture. God (or whateva ) is not a Santa Claus, and you are not going to get a Hummer if you are praying for it.
         
         On the other side, if the purpose of the prayer (or rather meditation) is to get in better sync with the Universe, including adjusting your goals and cravings, I believe it is always answered. At least this how I feel...
         
         Praying for someone's health/survival, or in general for someone's (not self) well being seems to be somewhat special and stick out of the first category, and I don't really have a strong opinion on this part. There is an interesting observation on this from Emmabalmer in one of her first hubs, showing it might work...

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            sandra rinckposted 17 years agoin reply to this

            yeah, this guy just posted something about the Heinsberg theory, I forgot all about it, you should check it out, or just watch the movie Down the Rabbit Hole.  Really friggin fascinating.

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   H. P. Loveboatposted 17 years ago

   Hi everybody, this would be my first post. I realize a lot of discussion has occurred on this subject, but I'm going to attempt to target the original question from the beginning of the thread.
   
   I am currently procrastinating doing further work on an obnoxiously long research paper on parapsychology. As I see it minimized, at the bottom of my screen, begging me to continuing working on it, I'm reminded of something I was studying about the topic of prayer for this paper. From a completely scientific perspective, I will put forth the theory of Actualization of Potentials. I don't pretend to fully understand this theory and I'm going to try and present it in as reader friendly a form as I can.
   
   I'm sure most people have heard of that famous research that was done a long time ago when scientists were shooting some subatomic particles out of a particle accelerator and noticed that their expectations of the particles were affected where they were in space. If you've never heard of this than google "Heisenberg" and prepare for some strenuous reading. Anyway, the reason these little particles get to do this is because they operate on probabilities and possibilities rather than definite concepts like we understand. This is called a wave function. Well, once the particles are measured in some way, the wave function collapses and gives them a 100% probability--a certainty--and they take on a definite location. What does this have to do with prayer? If particle placement is what defines our reality, then some parapsychologist/physicists have theorized that intense meditation on an outcome can raise the probability. If someone you know has been diagnosed with cancer and has only a 20% chance of living, you may be able, if you believe in what you are doing, to alter this probability through your will alone, causing the person to survive.
   
   I personally have experienced prayer requests being answered that were of hale Mary proportions (no pun intended). But, I mean, they were absolutely absurd, deus ex machinas right when I needed them. So, I am inclined to believe in the power of prayer. But in my belief, we are not praying to a God who is outside this universe and controlling it, but rather we are meditating on a desired outcome and depending on our level of intent, altering the universe slightly.
   
   Hope this helps.

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      sandra rinckposted 17 years agoin reply to this

      I saw that on Down the Rabit hole.  Its mind bogglin', they said and showed that the only altering factor in the proccess was observation.  Blows my mind.  They also did the snowflake thing, that upon mediation with the snowflake, in good thoughts, it became more beautiful, were as the snowflake that was meditated on with negitive thoughts was not as full or pretty, more like a square than a snowflake (something like that)  I could have relayed it wrong, but still, ability to alter something threw meditation or pray is a fact.

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      robie2posted 17 years agoin reply to this

      heavy Loveboat--very heavy < see me shaking my head and muttering about quantum physics>  but you write well and clearly . Think I'll go have a look at your hubs, bet they are gonna be very interesting

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    vrecccposted 17 years ago

    Loveboat,
    
    Do I detect some Carlos Castaneda and Wayne Dyer in there? Or, maybe some Depak Chopra? I love their stuff. I'm more familiar with Wayne Dyer and I've recently read some Eckhart Tolle.
    
    Where did Mark go? I was enjoying his input.
    
    Jonathan

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       H. P. Loveboatposted 17 years agoin reply to this

       As much as I would like to pretend that I'm as well read as I sound, I'm afraid I have to say that I haven't even heard of those people. I'm a fast learner, but a slow reader, so I tend to lean toward grand all-inclusive system theories. I suggest reading the book A Brief History of Everything by Ken Wilber. Then, after your head explodes, I suggest reading it again. Then once more for good measure. Long story short: it lives up to its name.

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    sandra rinckposted 17 years ago

    I was thinking we could try our own little study on prayer to see if it actually works.  Whatchall think?

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       robie2posted 17 years agoin reply to this

       Have you heard about the intention experiment? It's people trying to influence the behavior of objects in a lab somewhere with thoughts and prayers and measuring the results. It's coordinated on the web--and of course, there's a book( isn't there always?> but anyway here's the link
       
       http://www.theintentionexperiment.com/
       
       as for a prayer study--makes me kind of uncomfortable to think of it as a scientific experiment--like trying to prove the existance of God or something.

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          Inspirepubposted 17 years agoin reply to this

          I we got people from 200 years ago, and put them in a room with a light switch, and they experimented with saying "let there be light" and flicking the switch, would that be "trying to prove the existence of God"?
          
          Just because they don't understand the HOW of the phenomenon, and think it is supernatural, doesn't mean that they can't experiment to test the WHAT of the phenomenon. "Hmm, flick this thing here, and it gets light, just like that. Jim, c'mere - see if it works for you ..."
          
          The energy system by which "prayer" or "creative intention" is fulfilled is no more spooky than electricity. Experimenting with electricity doesn't make you uneasy because you know how that works. When everyone understands how to use their minds properly, manifesting will be no more spooky than flicking the light switch.
          
          Jenny

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             sandra rinckposted 17 years agoin reply to this

             I never reply much to you Jenny but I love to read what you write. I think your awsome.

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    vrecccposted 17 years ago

    Sandra,
    
    How do you suggest we carry out the experiment?

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    vrecccposted 17 years ago

    I know some of the academic studies that have been done on prayer used plants. They were given the same light, food, soil, etc. One group was prayed for and the other one wasn't. The group of plants that grew better was indeed the one that grew better.

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    sandra rinckposted 17 years ago

    hmm, its tuff, but since we are in different regions and all, what could we pray upon to see if we had any effect on the outcome?  I gotta think on this, unless someone has any ideas.  The plant thing sounds good, but Id be meditating on palm trees.

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    vrecccposted 17 years ago

    I wouldn't look at it as proving God's existence, but rather just observing a phenomenon at work that is part of our universe.

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       robie2posted 17 years agoin reply to this

       but I already observe that phenomenon,privately

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       sandra rinckposted 17 years agoin reply to this

       Cool Robie I am gonna check it out, and no I am not trying to prove God exist, thats futile and personal, but like vreccc said, observing the phenominominomon. 
       
       I did see something on the history channel about some web word tracker or something, where a computer is making prohechies based on repetitive information that is floating around on the internet.

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    H. P. Loveboatposted 17 years ago

    It is true that the Bible says not to test God, so i could understand if you hold certain religious beliefs and find it uncomfortable. Of course, if such an experiment were conducted by non-believers, then it would show that such a thing isn't "testing God" because he wouldn't answer the prayer if it were.

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    Inspirepubposted 17 years ago

    By the way, I have done one of those experiments where you change things by observing them. It was fun. It was part of the second year Physics lab series at Sydney Uni, and although I never enrolled for Physics I went to lots of the second-year labs for three years in a row. That one was my favourite!
    
    We turned light from a wave to a particle and back again, just by observing it. IT was waaaaay cool.
    
    Jenny

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       sandra rinckposted 17 years agoin reply to this

       So do you think we could do the same thing even though everyone is in a different location.  for instance, picking an object that we all know and meditation on that thing, like the Easter Island head or something, lol, you know what I mean.

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       robie2posted 17 years agoin reply to this

       that's amazing stuff-- saw a documentary on " string theory" that was sort of related-- nano physics--light, matter, energy-- I didn't understand it all but it was fascinating.

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    vrecccposted 17 years ago

    Does anyone know if I can change the "vreccc" to my name, Jonathan? I'm really bummed that I chose that. It does mean something, but I don't like it being my hubname.
    
    Jonathan

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       sandra rinckposted 17 years agoin reply to this

       how bout JonnyV

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       Mishaposted 17 years agoin reply to this

       Nope, you can't. You can only open another account and copy-paste you hubs there, losing all SEO work you did so far.

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    robie2posted 17 years ago

    Hey guys-- I wasn't saying that you shouldn't  do it--or that it was a bad idea-- it is just that for me prayer and meditation are very private activities-- and participation personally would be uncomortable for me-- thass all.  :-)

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    robie2posted 17 years ago

    ooops-- Lookls like the conversation has moved on--nevermind

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    vrecccposted 17 years ago

    How about we all focus on my bank account getting bigger :-)'

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    vrecccposted 17 years ago

    Not doing it.

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    vrecccposted 17 years ago

    Well,
    
    Look's like it's vreccc.
    
    Son of a............

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       robie2posted 17 years agoin reply to this

       naah-- you can change it if you want--something cool hmmmmmmmm

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          robie2posted 17 years agoin reply to this

          Just open a new account with the new name-- better do it now before you've written 200 hubs

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       Mishaposted 17 years agoin reply to this

       You are not alone - Jenny feels the same way, so you are in a good company

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    vrecccposted 17 years ago

    Well,
    
    I have a good hubscore and a couple good hubs that have a high score. I don't want to risk losing that.

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       robie2posted 17 years agoin reply to this

       ooops then you are stuck vreccc.  Has a nice ring to it actually vreccc LOL and yes you have written some great hubs

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    vrecccposted 17 years ago

    Oh well,
    
    It's a good opportunity for me to practice detachment, yet another spiritual concept.

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    vrecccposted 17 years ago

    I'm blushing.
    
    Actually, I've got some crap hubs on there too.

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    vrecccposted 17 years ago

    It seems chatting with you guys here hasn't helped me any. In the time I've been here my score has dropped from 94 to 93. "That's what you get for praying" (George Bailly-It's a Wonderful Life)

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       H. P. Loveboatposted 17 years agoin reply to this

       I'm not sure exactly how the prayer thing would work with Easter Island and stuff like that. I know what Easter Island is, but I'm a little iffy about where it is. I wonder if that would affect it. Given the fact that my research topic for this paper that I'm still not writing is "actions at a distance" I would say that it doesn't matter if we are all in different places. But I'm not sure of the specifics...heck, who is?

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       LdsNana-AskMormonposted 17 years agoin reply to this

       FOCUS!  LOL
       
       Okay... since I am a 'zealot', I better add my two cents to the conversation.  Set ya' all straight:-)
       
       I honestly believe that prayer to God, transcends denomination.  I also believe in a perfect plan - that only He has a complete knowledge of, thus He has mucho good info to share with those who will ask Him for understanding.
       
       This understanding for me personally, allows me to pray to God first and offer thanks for my life, which I believe He holds in His hand - and then to ASK for understanding  of the many things of this world, that many legitimately question and that do not make sense to my finite mind...
       
       I am full aware that just because I ask for a 'thing' meaning physical or temporal - that unless it is a righteous desire, and most importantly in-line with His will...  I may not get what I want.  So, to make sure I am not behaving like a spoiled child... one who knows He can Give If it was the right thing...  but be humble enough to then ASK Him the Whys? of this life.
       
       And this is where, in scipture we are told to ask first, seek for understanding - which is activity on our part... and then through this process of humility we then open a portal in where understanding is made known unto us through Him.
       
       And this is the peace that He giveth to all who Ask Him about life and understanding...
       
       When we are told that if we ask, we will receive... never did that mean more than what God Himself has to give... which is knowledge... the truth of how things are.... not the things of which they seem.
       
       To THINK that His best way to bless His children would be through giving them things of a temporal or physical nature... would then truly bring Him down to us... and not the other way... which is UP to Him and His ways.
       
       Prayer is the asking for greater light and understanding, because we live in a very dark place without Him.
       
       tDMg
       LdsNana-AskMormon
       
       Remember... treasures of knowledge!  Take that to your eternal bank... if you have opened an account...

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    vrecccposted 17 years ago

    I say we focus on someone who is ill. There is a wonderful prayer from my faith that I say when I'm praying for someone's health.
    
    Thy Name is my healing, oh my God, and
    rememberance of Thee is my remedy.
    Nearness to Thee is my hope, and
    love for Thee is my companion.
    Thy mercy to me is my healing and succor
    in both this world and next.
    Thou verily art the All Bountiful, the All Knowing
    the All Wise.

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    H. P. Loveboatposted 17 years ago

    There are two passages in the Bible that have always spoken volumes to me regarding prayer. Jesus tells us not to ramble on like the pagans, and that if we have enough faith we could command the mountains into the sea. I have always taken this to mean that if we believe--truly believe--then quantity has no affect on prayer. In my Christian days I always had a moral problem with saying a prayer more than once because I believed it was an insult to God (as if He didn't hear me the first time or something). In light of my newer beliefs in which I feel that prayer may quite frankly be a form of telekinesis, I wonder if intent focus from repetition would be better, or if complete unbridled faith channeled into a single prayer would still prevail.
    
    Also, let it be known that some of the biggest prayer requests I've had fulfilled were of the once-and-done variety. Shameless plug: I have a hub on this subject called Let God Work Around You. I wonder if it would be of any insight.

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    Inspirepubposted 17 years ago

    I have a friend who is an expert on prayer, and he says sending multiples out is like repeatedly digging up a seed to see if it has sprouted. It shows a lack of trust, and undoes the prayer.
    
    So your "complete, unbridled faith channeled into a single prayer" is the way to go, according to him, anyway.

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    SparklingJewelposted 17 years ago

    But saying particular prayers once is to me, like saying that it is completely perfect this one and only time.
    I like to consider that my consciousness/soul is learning, and can do better and better; as God/Source provides the answer to one prayer, then I can add on it and grow some concept into a greater concept. God and I working together to create !!

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    vrecccposted 17 years ago

    Sparkle,
    
    "Source"
    
    Do you read Wayne Dyer?
    
    Jonathan

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       SparklingJewelposted 17 years agoin reply to this

       Hi Jonathan,
       
       I have in the distant past. I have tried to read as much and as many spiritual oriented viewpoints, religions and philosophies as possible. My perspective at this point in time is that every one hears God/Source, but it gets interpreted in various ways as it comes through the human consciousness. I want to find the unity in our diversity, so we can all get along and work things out. Please, check out my hubs of  Wholistic Lifestyle Planning (WLP) to find out more about what I like to consider concerning these subjects.

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    H. P. Loveboatposted 17 years ago

    I would, at times, repeat prayers if I felt they were for my benefit and mine alone.

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    Andrew0208posted 17 years ago

    Yes, prayer works. Prayer is beyond asking God or Divinity for something. It is a good fellowship with your maker by meditation and supplications with thanksgiving unto God. The greatest hindrance recorded for a prayer not been answered is UNBELIEVE. All things are possible to him that believes. Mark 9:23.
    
    Andrew

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    scarhealsposted 17 years ago

    yeah it really works....but we dont have a proof.......

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    SparklingJewelposted 17 years ago

    When one considers quantum physics, that the universe is accelerating and expanding in a spiral-like motion, (is that quantum?)...it is easy to consider that repetition in prayer, even accelerated prayer could have more power. After all, we are here to learn and keep in "tune" with the rest of the universe...so if it is expanding and accelerating...shouldn't we be, too?

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    Silent Assassinposted 17 years ago

    Hey Rudra, I was reading your profile and you sound like a learned experienced person who shares a passion for history. I don't know how to explain the phenomemon concerning praying to bacteria, but I would like to hear your ideas on history and what aspects of greek history fascinate you.

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    Rudraposted 17 years ago

    "faith will heal us all" or will it kill us all.
    Assasin I am very much interested in things like the Greek philosophers, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, things like that.

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    buildofcreditposted 17 years ago

    Yeah. Prayer really works. Especially if it comes to your heart.

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       Rudraposted 17 years agoin reply to this

       Have you had any experiences with prayers. Please tell us.

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    MOmmagusposted 17 years ago

    There are countless examples of miracles, I absolutley believe in the power of prayer.  My husband has experienced an overnight, supernatural healing from a serious health problem after our church elders laid hands on him and prayed.

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    Peter M. Lopezposted 17 years ago

    Great testimony MOmmagus.  Thanks for sharing.

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    stephhicks68posted 17 years ago

    I pray regularly, and mostly for things that I think can be somewhat easily bestowed or witnessed, such as "peace and understanding," or "strength in a difficult situation."  Last fall, my grandfather was dying.  It was so difficult because I knew that he was ready to go (93 years old and suffering from emphysema).  I didn't want him to go, selfishly.  So - for whom did I pray?  For my grandfather, for a peacefully and painless passing.  And for myself for understanding in the circle of life.  I couldn't really pray for him to keep living for another year or two or five, even though I really wanted a miracle.  But I do believe that those circumstances exist.  People can pull through difficult medical diagnoses, conceive a child after years of infertility, or the like.  Even doctors have no other explanation.

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    SparklingJewelposted 17 years ago

    Obviously, prayer is powerful and unique to each soul.
    Having come through another Easter meditation focus, more healing from prayers and rituals has come forth to clear my subconscious of old worn out patterns learned and repeated from childhood. And the biggest thing was more deeply recognizing how I am too much in my head about psychology...though it has been helpful to a degree, my heart (physical and in metaphor) is my focus now, for there is where God resides first and foremost, down to the very last cell and atom...and all the God chi/energy that feeds them love!

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    ripplemakerposted 17 years ago

    I woke up so early today around 3 am.  And ended up reading hubs.  After reading Peter Lopez' hub about the problem of religion, I find myself pondering about this question hmmmm, does prayer work?
    
    I'd just like to share that for me prayer has always been a time to talk to God.  I did since I was 8.  Little Michelle, away from home, very much homesick and lonely.  And I found myself talking Him.  And He listened.  Sometimes He talks back to me too.   And I truly found a friend in Him. 
    It's been 28 years since that time and I still find comfort in talking to Him.  Has it been as easy as it sounds?  No, I've had my valleys of despair and moments when He was just quiet.  But through it all, I have seen prayers and miracles unfold many times. 
    
    Today, when I do "healing" work, I do not claim to be extra special than anyone of you.  I believe each one is a wondrous being.  And I believe the healer is actually the person that I am doing healing on.  I believe that when I pray for somebody, I am actually sharing God's love.  And in doing so, I have witness their opening up and miracles have taken place. 
    
    Gee, I hope I am making sense.  I think I better try to go back to sleep.  Thanks for the time.   yawn

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    guidebabaposted 16 years ago

    I am an Atheist I don't believe in God or Prayer. Nobody is going to get anything without doing the workmanship. You work and you get. God is never going to come on earth to fulfill all your needs. You will have to work for it.

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       sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       God isn't all about fulfilling our needs.  You still have to work to get what you want here, but God is coming back ok.  lol. 

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    Mark Knowlesposted 16 years ago

    Which reminds me:
    
    
    
    

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