following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary.
I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees, Christmas trees. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are, Christmas trees.
It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, 'Merry Christmas' to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu . If people want a creche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.
I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from, that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.
Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship celebrities and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him? I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where these celebrities came from and where the America we knew went to.
In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke; it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.
Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her 'How could God let something like this happen?' (regarding Hurricane Katrina).. Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response.. She said, 'I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?'
In light of recent events.... Terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found a few years ago) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK. Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school. The Bible says thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.
Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave, because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said okay..
Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.
Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with 'WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.'
Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says. Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire, but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing. Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.
Are you laughing yet?
Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they will think of you for sending it.
Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.
Pass it on if you think it has merit.
If not, then just discard it... No one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in.
My Best Regards, Honestly and respectfully,
I recieved this via e-mail and could not resist placing it on a thread so what are your opinions on this commentary?
Thanks for the post.
It is what they call CULTURE TOLERANCE, when you respect other peoples culture, their choices and their mores.
America ia a melting pot of all the cultures and it is nice to live in a place where you could live the way you want it to be, but with full respect of others around you,
YOU REAP what you SOW, GOD is not like that i think. (if there is GOD)
Is God really a creation of the mind and when things happen, it is just comfortable to blame him etc? because most of the times we dont have answer for such things?
And if things are not the way it should be, there is somebody to be blamed for it?
This is a joke, right ???
If not I'm one of the guilty ones that made this world go wrong by trashing God.
i hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but Dr. Spock's son did not commit suicide.
also, Mr. Stein did NOT write the part beginning with "In light of...".
is God so peevish and ubersensitive and PMSy that he will sulk and turn his back on us just because we question his existence?
i'm trying not to be offended by this...
Just e mailed it to the Pope, hope he enjoys it.
About three quarters of the passage attributed to Ben Stein did not come from him. The original quote is in bold. The stuff in italics never was said or written by him.
This is similar to the farce someone pulled out of their hind-quarters about the crew of the Columbia saying the Lord's Prayer as the shuttle crashed and burned.
Here's the rest of what he said.
Or maybe I can put it another way, where did the idea come from that we should worship Nick and Jessica and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand him?
I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where Nick and Jessica came from and where the America we knew went to.
Merry Christmas Ben Stein, Happy Hanukkah, and Happy Kwanza too.
AE thanks for posting it ! Some things are too Important not to share !
He has it partly right. This nation is reaping what's been sown, to a large degree.
Yes we do need God.
But....as much as Ben Stein seems to be trying to have the right attitude......he comes across as maybe caving in to some degree of political correctness....
because Christ IS God the Son, the Messiah, something Stein doesn't seem to understand.
So...I'm not sure it does much good for him to stick up for Christianity, when he himself, as a Jew, doesn't recognize Christ for Who He is.....
And what message is that, to you?
That humans need God and it hasn't been a good idea to turn our backs, that's what I get out of it. I like it.
Yes I agree it's not a good idea to turn our backs on God.
AEvans what a very powerful thread!! I believe that this world has totaly indulged in false idols! The world has allowed man to be god and truly expects God to follow them instead og letting God be first and we follow!
Of course I think the most profound statement in all of this is he (God) is tired of walking away and soon he will return! Many will know his name and many will call on his name; however few names Christ will know and even fewer will enetr into the kingdom of heaven!
Ben Stein is a genius. A compassionate, kind , practical genius (who, by the way, also has a wonderful sense of humor).
Pure majic from a rational mind! AE thanks for sharing you're allways right on target!
Actually, I'm agnostic ~ which is just a better way of saying that I'm in limbo and I don't know what I believe. But when I read this thread, I definitely started to rethink my past. I was raised Christian, and my belief in God started to fade during my early twenties (which wasn't all too long ago). Perhaps the environment that we live in today actually promotes this type of thinking or 'behavior'. I'm not sure...but if your interpretation is true, then perhaps that would explain my emptiness or loss in translation...interesting.
When I recieved the e-mail it was something that I truly had to share all of us find ourselves putting blame on God especially when something happens but when I read it from top to bottom I agreed with Ben Stein and his commentary made complete sense to me.
You mean like putting the blame squarely on the atheists? Perfect sense. Let me know which of the pre-1964 values you miss the most. Dropping an Atomic bomb on civilians or segregation. Because it has been all down hill from there.
So you agree that turning your back is necessary for mooning?
Not to mention genocide of the so-called Native Americans, and pre-child labor laws, lynchings, and all that stuff. Pedophile Priest were above the law then. Abusive parents could get away with anything...
Although Ben Stein is a genious, he's a very foolish and delusional man!!!
You know I have not ever blamed an Atheist for what they believe just like my Atheist friends who do not believe I am entitled to my beliefs too!
My mistake - I thought you said trhis:
So - are you not saying that the problems all started when that atheist O'Hair pressured to get the bible removed from the class room?
This is confusing for me - because that is exactly what you said - so perhaps you could clarify?
Do not think that Hurricane Katrina was caused by stopping prayer in schools?
And you do think we had better values before 1964?
Clarification please. If you do not think these things.
Why say them?
Our values were HORRIBLE here in the U.S. before 1964 based on History I wasn't alive then , I personally believe that when we stop believing that there is a possibility that something higher then ourselves can change all things , is when the turmoil starts. Ben Stein said them and I posted it , they were not my words however I believe in what I believe in, just like you do not believe with all respect based on our indifferences, to me there is not a right nor a wrong but some of us are entitled to express our thoughts, opinions, feelings and emotions without disrepsecting someone who does not believe in the same thing. I believe all of us should get along regardless of our thoughts and express our opinions with an open mind.
* If have never tried to sway someone's opinion on a religious thread so I believe that nobody should try to sway my thoughts I have always gone into these threads with an open mind and an open heart.
You got it right here girl!
"I believe all of us should get along regardless of our thoughts and express our opinions with an open mind"
So = let me get this straight.
You think our values before 1964 were horrible.
You think that since 1964 things have gotten so bad you wish you could go back to before 1964 because it was so much better.
And it all began when the atheists removed the bible from the classroom. And before 1964 when we did believe in a higher power - when our values were HORRIBLE - that was OK?
And I should respect the fact that you believe it is all the fault of the athiests?
You are confusing me - and blaming the atheists is not helping.
But - that is OK - because you did not say it - Ben Stein did.
Make your mind up. Were things better before 1964 or not?
I have never said I blame people who do not believe so you are being naughty by putting words into my mouth, I simply said I have my beliefs and you have yours goofball! Things as I said were not better before 1964 what does this have to do with those who believe and those who do not? I believe in God and you don't but we still need to respect each others opinions would you not agree? I am not trying to sway you therefore you cannot sway me and I have always been open-minded and repsected everyones thoughts.
OK - So I should respect your belief that things started to go bad when O'Hare (founder of American Atheists) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools.
Even though we both agree that things were no better before this point?
Did you even read what you posted?
That's right you should be able to defend your religion and its leaders and founder like any other religion. That’s what free speech it all about, right "scientist"
I believe that people who start threads like this have way too much spare time on their hands. Perhaps some gardening or housecleaning so they are both productive and have a sense of self-worth. Rather than posting yet another self-congratulatory screed on why it's so great to be a mindless lemming.
mmmm.... I houseclean and garden on top of taking care of a sick husband, mother and a rambunctious 9 year-old. Why is it o.k. that others can post however when I do it not pushing my beliefs but just letting people know what I believe is not o.k.? I have never ever disagreed with anyone who is Atheist nor have I disagreed with anyone who believes but here is what I find there always seems to be an argument and nobody's opinion is valued. Why is is politically to correct to write about what Christians do but wrong when a Christian makes a statement? Why is it wrong when a non-christian makes a statement? I believe there should not be any right or wrong the point I am trying to make is it certainly would be nice if everyone could get along regardless what they believed, from what I can see it is not at all possible.
Not pushing your beliefs? What's the point of this thread then?
I houseclean, garden, cook, do laundry and take care of a wife who is currently undergoing chemotherapy...oh and hold down a full-time job too. Why is it when I express my own belief I'm met with crap from a self-righteous holier-than-thou type.
It's great that you have something to believe in. But there's no requirement to broadcast it to the world. Keep it to yourself if you are truly pious.
I don't care or mind that you are a "so called christian." What I do mind is having your belief shoved down my throat.
This did not start out as a "so called christian" country. Too bad the vocal self-righteous brainless idiots get so much air-time.
Too bad. Because I'm certain that without this pipe-dream to fall back on you'd all be much better people than you are now.
You'd have no excuse not to be.
But with Jesus to forgive all your sins, past, present, and future, you can continue to go on and on about what nice people you are as you screw your neighbor, cheat on your taxes, divorce and remarry, deny others the very rights you have, and the plethora of other indignities you love to put on "non-believers."
Want to get along? Stop telling me how your faith makes you such a great person to know. I can figure out whether or not you are without your faith being part of that determination.
Liam AE Is as nice a person as one could meet and is well within her rights to express herself . And if I read correctly this is a religion and beliefs forum therefore the proper place to post . You are a little out of line here !
So am I. And I have a right to express myself...which is what I'm doing.
No, I am not out of line. I'm expressing my beliefs. If you respected the right of others to believe as they wish and express those beliefs you'd have no reason to respond.
Apparently you do not.
It is you who are out of line.
You are not expressing you are trying to bully her and anybody can see that !
You don't have the right to tell me what I'm doing.
Anybody can make up crap and claim it's true too...which is what you just did.
I'm expressing myself and my belief that so called christians are full of crap.
If you want to see it as bullying that's your problem...not mine.
I see you are a proud graduate of the Glenn Beck school of debate.
I see. So how many times a day do you beat your wife?
A typical Glenn Beck type question.
Nope. Just expressing my beliefs.
You DID see that the quote attributed to Ben Stein is only partially true...right? Most of the religious content was written by someone else and is being passed off as Stein's work.
Gosh don't you people have enough original work to swoon over without making stuff up?
Liam I do not even go to a regular church . But I have faith . I am just curious why do you assum all Christians are bad people ? You have with your statements lumped them all into one category . Why such hatred ?
Whatever. I don't hate Christians.
I just wish they'd shut the hell up about their faith. That, and stop making stuff up. But hey, since the "religion" seems to be based on the made up anyway...
By the way I don't assume Christians are bad people. But I do think they should take Deuteronomy seriously if they are truly faithful. Jesus did say, when asked, that all that came before still applies. And that means that particular book.
And of course, if they did there'd be no divorce, no tax cheats, and no shellfish for the believers.
Since that's not the case I personally think of the 'saved' as "so called" christians.
Nope. More power to them.
Why would I hate something that was at the root of the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades?
Liam it may shock you to know there are some good people too ! But I realize that you have already decided that your contempt is the be all end all .
I think it's absolutely remarkable that you know what I think. Somehow you seem to know that I don't like anyone here and that I am contemptuous of everyone as well.
Just amazing since I've said neither.
Tell me does it make you feel special to put your negative crap into someone else's mouth and parade it around as truth?
With all due respect (and that's not much) kindly shove what you "know" where the moon don't shine.
An internet forum is a passive information source. You have to actively pull information from the Internet, nothing is forced or "shoved" down your throat.
But more interesting to me: How does keeping silent about something you like make you "truly pious" and, by inference, speaking about it make you impious?
By your reasoning, if you have ever talked or written about a restaurant you liked, book you read, movie, song, person, idea, artwork, location, or dog, you are then rendered by your logic necessarily not hungry, illiterate, visually impaired, unmusical, impersonal, dumb, lack aesthetic sense, are lost and hate animals. Plus, by doing so, you shoved it down whomever's throat you were talking to or that might come across what you wrote.
As much fun as that is, I'm afraid it doesn't hold up very well under any form of scrutiny.
While I am unwilling to cast this blanket over all Christians as underlying their intent, I have to agree with you on this point. I have often marveled at the convenience of that part. That is a nice set up they have going there.
Mormons have an ever better deal; you can get saved retroactively. That's the one to go with in my opinion. Live it up while you are alive, and then leave a request in your will to have someone down at LDS central hook you up with some salvation.
I can only guess that you have not actually read the new testament or you'd know the answer to this.
I can only guess that you have not read The New Testament or you wouldn't be trying endlessly throughout this forum to make the point that Christians who can't follow the rules of the Bible should shut up.
The fact that you haven't read it is glaring. And if you did read it, you clearly read it with such hostility that you were incapable of grasping the point (or else you just have super poor reading comprehension - I confess to having no way to be certain).
[A little hint: in the Christian myth (both books), Jesus died for the sins of humanity BECAUSE he knew they weren't going to be capable of living a sin-free life. Adam and Eve couldn't even pull off a simple request not to eat from one particular tree. The whole point is that people are flawed, etc., etc. and to STRIVE for living well.] You don't even have to buy into all the magic and stuff to recognize it's a decent moral framework for underpinning social order; it's a myth. They aren't meant to be taken literally. Clearly it's been effective overall, despite all the human misuse/abuse of its parts along the way. It's been one of the most successful myths in all of history.
None of the great religions ever pretended to make perfect people out of their words; the purpose (the reason each mythology survives however long its functional lifespan is) is to direct people to better social behaviors to preserve social order in a species prone to selfishness and disrule. Man's law isn't as effective as fear of divine consequence. Stein's article (or the article created from what he actually said) is, in a round about way, pointing out that we no longer fear divine wrath so people are starting to let go of the social rules that prevent lots of disharmony. You don't have to bash AEvans to get the message of the article, and you clearly can't see outside your personal angst to even fathom a simple message if it's couched in religious terms. Too bad, that suggests very limited scope.
Which leads me to this last: the fact that you missed my point about push/pull medium and the fact that you had to actively select to come into this forum and then actively choose to read AE's post before spewing your angry rants about her forcing stuff down your throat supports the "poor reading comprehension" part of my theory above, but again, I can't be sure.
You just have the sharpest barbs, Shades. lol And never fail to crack me up.
The irony here (and I think I've been on HP too long, perhaps, since I know) is that both proponents have spouses suffering in the same way and in chemo.
That is very sad, and explains a lot. Although, AE has always been pretty kind in the time I've been here, so I wouldn't speculate that her disposition is evidence of her suffering.
I only mention it to point out that my situation is not that much different than hers.
Yet, I don't blame god, someone else, or nature. It simply is the way that it is. I don't even expect any help; not from any quarter. Most certainly not from a ficitious being that has no form or substance.
The good news here is that it will be over soon enough.
I care for and love my wife. I will be helping her get through this no matter what and dispite the fact that I think organized religion is a farce I will remain by her side until one of us dies.
You see humanists can have high values too. I don't have to fear eternal damnation or a burning hell to feel this way.
In fact I know more humanists who are good christians than I know so called christians who are 'good Christians.'
So called christians do not seem to know the ground rules for proclaiming their faith. It's simply lip service "just in case." A hedged bet if you will.
It's Blaise Pascal's argument. That it's safer to be a believer than not.
Mormons can retroactively baptist anyone...even Jews.
And they have.
In so doing angered a great many people...and rightfully so too.
Now if they choose to baptize me after I'm dead it won't bother me a bit...I won't be here to be bothered by it.
I can't believe you guys think your god would turn his/her back on you and let bad things happen.
The true spiritual world doesn't work this way. The spiritual world isn't a dictatorship run by one power or entity.
Once everyone realizes that and accepts all of us having a piece of the infinite consciousness in us, we will be able to be pure.
But thinking that some wrathful, vengeful power is watching you is hilarious. Religion is about being fearful. That is not what being spiritual is about.
Remember, the highest point of consciousness is the highest spiritual realm. It is not run like a dictatorship and is not judgmental. Things happen on Earth from our actions, not a wrathful god.
That is so true about us pushing God away and then we want to blame God when things go wrong!!!! We need God and we need Him now honestly.
You can have him or her. And I like how Christians automatically give "him" a sex lol
Well, it makes sense since the bible was written by men who think women should be subservient. That is clearly in the bible multiple times.
Well ok then, but no more than six! That should take care of it!
I'm a converted Jew - conservative through marriage and struggle constantly - this is the one and only time I will refer to my beliefs which have changed due to the respect and appreciation AEvans presents us
This thread is not to attack anyone who does not believe it is a thread that provides us a clear understanding of what we should believe if we have stopped believing. Mark Knowles has his opinion as others who do not believe so we should respect one another without becoming hostile. MDawson also backs this as well as Tony0724. As A Christian I believe it is time that all of us try to get along, please!!!
Mark Knowles has a right to express his opinions and beliefs! We all need to realize Mr. Knowles has done alot for H/P and should not be attacked!!
As he can be banned so can others!!!
Furthermore we are not showing to be very Christianily to attack anyone for their beliefs!
As Christians we are to love one another and lead by example; so when degrading someone else what example are we showing and how are we representing our God?
Is not to attack anyone ?? Really ??
when you're saying atheists and people that have stop praying are the cause of all the wrongs in this world ?
If you really belief that, you should have send this letter via e-mail to your friends, and not posted it in a forum.
If I were you,I would be ashamed of having that kind of thoughts !
First I am not ashamed of what I believe in ,just like you are not ashamed of your beliefs and last Ben Stein said it I did not I just posted and expressed my thoughts just like everyone is expressing there's I am not attacking they are Ben Stein's words.
Well ,you post Stein's words and you backed them, so it's as if you believe that too.
I'm not ashamed of my beliefs, because I believe in nothing. But if I'd believe in Ben Stein's remarks ,I would be.
Tantrum you are being naughty ! Here is my point exactly I respect you even though you do not believe but when I post what I believe it is wrong my thoughts should be just as respected as any of my friends on HP do you not agree? I count you as one of my friends although are beliefs are different and our thoughts.
About things being so much worse now, have you ever read the description of the times in The Tale Of Two Cities? I don't know that people have ever been different. I still like the letter because it points to a unity of moral expectations for our country that we don't even pretend to any longer.
It's a faith and family values issue and it was better and now it's worse and with people like you the march to the gutters will just move alittle faster.
You are a "Bring back segregation," kinda guy. I could tell.
What the hell does faith and family have to do with segregation? The gradual break down of family is well documented. The results of the"give it all away "attitude are in all our slums and gettos. You have no arguement, everybody on the left has a hand out. And being a coward is not normally considered an attribute.
So - you are choosing to ignore the ills of the world pre-1964, which included segregation, dropping an atomic bomb on civilians, 2 world wars, the great depression and numerous other "family values." When "faith" was stronger.
And what has being a coward got to do with anything exactly?
Let me see, if I understand you correctly the strength of the family unit is the cause of all our problems.
Sometimes the right thing to isn't pretty but having the courage to make the tough call is what America used to stand for. Unless of course gay marraige is as big an issue as a world war.
In spite of the troubles of that time , the family unit sure was more stable . And we did not have Colombines and our kids were not flashing themselves for one and all to see !
But you have the government injecting service men with syphilis, segregation and yet another useless war. What was good about that?
That is not relevant to this post and you are going to have to prove that one ! Not do not get me wrong I have a skeptical eye on Government too !
Of course it is relevant. If Columbine is relevant after then segregation is relevant before. Or was it a perfect world and now the liberal atheists have ruined it?
Apparently. Just not getting it. I went back from 1964 (when the bad things began to happen after Ms O'Hair got the bible out of the classroom and was "the most hated woman in America")) and this is what I came up with:
* 1964 - Segregation was still in full swing in the United States
* 1961 - US troops began pouring into Vietnam in great number
* 1950 - The U.S. Navy sprays bacteria from ships over San Franciso to test the extent of infection.
* 1945 - The first Atomic Bomb was dropped on a civilian population
* 1939-1945 The second great World War
* 1935 - The Nuremburg Race Laws against Jews are decreed and The Holocaust begins
* 1929-1942 - The great depression ravaged the world
* 1914-1918 - The first of the great World Wars took 16 million souls to sit next to baby Jesus
* 1913 - The Federal reserve Act was passed
* 1869 - The "Aboriginal protection Act" was passed allowing 100,000's of Australian aboriginal children to be forcibly removed from their families and placed with white christian families for upbringing. This continued until late 1960's
* 1865 - Slavery was abolished in the United States
And us liberals ruined it. Ruined it by trashing god.
In the last decades of the nineteenth century, the lynching of Black people in the Southern and border states became an institutionalized method used by whites to terrorize Blacks and maintain white supremacy. In the South, during the period 1880 to 1940, there was deep-seated and all-pervading hatred and fear of the Negro which led white mobs to turn to “lynch law” as a means of social control. Lynchings—open public murders of individuals suspected of crime conceived and carried out more or less spontaneously by a mob—seem to have been an American invention. In Lynch-Law, the first scholarly investigation of lynching, written in 1905, author James E. Cutler stated that “lynching is a criminal practice which is peculiar to the United States.”1
Faith and family values right there.
Really. What was so much better before 1964?
Not much. And this all happened under the watchful eye of their loving God. PURE RUBBISH!!!
Dear rubbish, Well don't mention the atrocities under daddy mao and papa stalin. They were necessary sacrifices for the development of a progressive sociaty. So we can practice deviate sex, kill babies and bring down religion. The hand of man, still proud?
AE, you really need to read your responses before you make your comments so you can really know what you are ACTUALLY saying. Just saying...
As humans we are unable to stand in front of the world;
and communicate any thought without offending someone.
However we should work on our skills of self analyzation when confronted with that opposite point of view. The person confronting should also do the same. This is how opinions evolve. Some do and some don't do this.
If God has turned his back on civilization it is not the "FAULT" of any single group. We all would own our own contribution to the situation.
As a great mind once said, "It is all relative" or something like that.
More wisdom from mr.lemming. Back-off or he'll turn us all in!
I'm always naughty, you know !
The thing is, I'm really fed up, with all this sayings about atheists being so wrong !
I'm your friend anyway
But please, leave this kind of comments back home !
I understand and reading the entire thing over I see the point for the next thousand years people will continue to argue but at least many of us can still be friends! I believe there are enough brothers and sisters on here to spread the love , I am certainly looking forward to Christmas, hey what are you sending me? I don't want coal this year. lololol
Ben Stein often has comments that are truly good. I have read all of the comments and my reply is simple. You sent something worth reading to everyone and that is good. I would never judge anyone, a Jew, a Gentile,a Christian because it is the Father's job, not mine. I pray for myself that I become stronger,more dedicated to what I believe and live my life more like Christ. Yes, our Nation needs God and Yes no matter what anyone says our values were begun upon "In God We Trust". If we read in Genesis we will see that in the beginning God saw the wickedness of man was great in the earth and He repented that He made man; except Noah and the floods came and the nation was destroyed. Noah, his family and the animals were saved. No, we are not living in the Old Testment and He said he would not destroy the earth again by flood, but that does not mean that anyone will live their life and never pay for their sins if they continually disobey His voice; AND THAT INCLUDES AMERICA. He says that He will not always strive with man to do good. America it seems,has lost all of the values it was founded upon. Any and everything is acceptable; the Bible does not change and never will. If one reads the Bible, and seeks God, He will supply the answers and help them understand what they should believe.
Quite right. Bring back the values from before 1964.
Good family values like slavery and destroying the American Indian. Values that America was founded on. What a shame America has lost those values....... It really is too bad.
Would you quit dipping in the wine? lololo She was talking about religious values the United States was founded on " In God We Trust", she is also entitled to her thoughts Mr. Happy Pants. Be nice.
But they were founded on those values which included slavery and wiping out the indigenous population also. This was the christian value was it not? Why on earth are you being so blinkered?
In God we Trust - and murder the Indians. In God we trust and import slaves.
And this is OK with you? Apparently.
Be realistic - please. You cannot possible be ignorant of these things. Can you?
You might want to do a little research also - In God we Trust was not added as the national motto until 1956.
'Ben Stein often has comments that are truly good.'
Well, this one isn't.
You keep on praying. You will need to be strong, for your future disappointments.
As usual, the message gets lost in the words. While it is easy to pick apart some of Stein's examples, or to pick apart the existence of God, I think the real message was pretty simple: he was commenting on what he sees as a decline in society, and trying to make the point that some core values that could stand to be brought back into the mainstream. (Values that predate 1964... values that have existed, been valued and abused, and have been written about since LONG before the Bible began to be assembled.) "God" doesn't HAVE to mean a supernatural being or force, it can just be a word to stand in for kinder and more humane part of human nature if that's more comfortable for some to use.
Human nature is exactly as it has always been and societies fluctuate between extremes now as they always have. The only real question is how long will the interim between founding and demise be, the answer being the function of how this conversation plays out in real actions rather than in words. Man's track record is not too good.
"Faith means making a virtue out of not thinking." - I wish I could quote the source
why can't people here simply say what they want to say?
it's sad when one feels they can't express their own belief and has to quote someone elses belief.
I'm sure most of the people here are really decent people, why climb all over each others beliefs? I don't care what you believe, if you're a nice person who doesn't intimidate your beliefs on others.
my closest friends and I don't agree on everything... politics and religion, but we get along great, would do anything to help if we were in need.
did anyone here read mark knowles latest hub?
First and Foremost this is the religion forum and I thought for once , just once the badgering would stop! There are many of us who do believe and we are entitled to express what we BELIEVE, there are those who do not BELIEVE and they are entitled to express what they BELIEVE. The question at the very end was what are your thoughts on the commentary? The discussion seems very good and all are being quite professional however it is certainly not kind to badger someone into another person's beliefs. If you are a believer I am also a believer and if you are not a believer that is fine to, however it is not necessary to become rude, shrewd or completely disrespectful remember it is my thread and I started it there for I can also Police it and will stop it when it gets out of hand so play nice and be respectful to each other all of us should be able to get along.
As many of us believers do believe " We Love Thy Neighbor As Thyself" so with you Liam I see your anger and frustration but still admire your talents and abilities so honestly an attack isn't necessary I am certain there is a more diplomatic way of handling your thoughts and I am also sorry to hear about your wife, my thoughts go out to you and yours.
Funny. I see "Religion & Beliefs."
That's all I'm doing. There a problem with that? Too bad!
It isn't? Every headline of note regarding "christian" belief is basically disrespectful of anyone who DOES NOT believe.
But thanks for clearing that up.
Once again you attribute anger to me.
Are you a mind-reader?
I know you aren't. How about reading what I write instead of putting your own twisted spin on things?
THIS is what annoys me about you lot. I'm not angry. I'm most certainly annoyed that If you can't understand it you make it something else. And the only way you can make it something else is to claim I said something I didn't, feel something I don't, and in that way disrespect me.
Diplomacy with christians? Right! Like the diplomacy the 2,000 years of christianity has shown to different sects and non-christians alike?
I say you should probably look up the word diplomacy; seems you don't know what it means.
Diplomacy: Tact handling affairs without arising hostility
It is man who chooses their paths and I have always defended Christians and Non-Christian believers with respect to both sides the issue you have with me is that I will not put on my boxing gloves and box with you. I am not trying to disrespect you I based my comment on your derogatory statement when it came to gardening and cleaning you were yelling and were quite derogatory so who was disrespecting whom? If I have ever disrespected you in anyway I sincerely apologize I have just asked if you would become more diplomatic, expressing your views is fine but I have been reading the thread and there has been some testosterone running rampant not only by you but by a few others too. So please forgive me.
I didn't make a derogatory statement. I wasn't yelling either. I am more than tired of seeing so called christians telling other's how to live when they apparently can't abide by their own rules.
I garden, cook, clean, do laundry, and take care of a wife who is usually suffering a high fever and sleeping due to chemotherapy. Fortunately she won't be on this forever. Oh and I work a full-time job too. That's a fact; not derogatory.
This driving need that so called christians have to insert their beliefs into national law is at the root of denying rights to others. It has been at the root of centuries of slavery, death, dismemberment, and countless other crimes against "non-believers."
This is above and beyond the fact that it's sheer fantasy.
I have spent the last twenty years of my life studying the three great religions. In order they are Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. What I've found is the basis for human beings to get along with one another under the watchful eye of a caring compassionate god.
Unfortunately far too many "believers" do exactly the opposite of what their religious texts instruct them to do. One of those things is to worship quietly and keep the pious activities between themselves and god.
There's no condition attached to "thou shalt not kill." There's no exception. Yet many, if not most, proponents of the death penalty are so called christians. Apparently they feel that removing themselves directly from throwing the switch or pushing the syringe plunger absolves them; it doesn't.
The same holds true for lying, theft, adultery, and the other commandments. We are also not to divorce, except for the most extreme circumstances, nor are we to eat certain foods or work on certain days. Yet so called christians trample these rules on a routine basis.
In secular law the only one of the many that is enforced, so to speak, is murder. However, unlike the bible, these crimes must be proved. Biblically the sinner is accountable to him/herself and the threat of damnation instantly.
My problem with religion is the people who "practice" it. By and large, they lie to themselves and anyone around them, all the while knowing that they fall far short of what's required of them.
Yet, for some odd reason this does not prevent them from dictating law, denigrating others, or insisting that their's is the one true way.
In every profession that I've worked there was a requirement for management to actually have experience and know the rules forward and backward before dictating to less senior staff what the rules are. In the few cases this wasn't true the company typically went under.
In so called christianity that requirement is sadly lacking. All one has to do is claim being saved and suddenly they are experts on everyone's life.
In short before you start telling anyone how to clean their house yours better be spotless.
I understand and value your opinion all of us should look in our own backyards before we sling mud.
I am closing this thread so nobody will feel threatened or like they are being attacked that was not the purpose of the thread. Thank you for your thoughts
Those darn Christians, why can't they follow those commandments, then everything would be okay.
Those darn Christians, why can't they follow those commandments, then they might actually have a leg to stand on if they did.
But because they can't or don't they shouldn't be taken seriously.
That's right, then the Christians can get graded on how well they carry them out!
You are funny I wasn't slinging mud I was looking for opinions and I certainly had gotten them with respect to all of the ones who do not believe. Just remember not all of us Christian are tyrants and the same applies to the non-believer.
"Shouldn't" will take years to turn into "aren't."
For now - they have too much political and monetary muscle to do it.
Don't worry - lots of people are working on it. We will evolve eventually.
Do you know how to read? How about comprehension?
I haven't read what Liam said. But I did go to Marks hub. I understand his anger. But you are both good people, and your intentions are honorable. I too had to face some hard truths growing up. Here is what I wrote in his comments: I'm am a gay man. I am considered an abomination by Christians and other religions. Cults are controlled by human beings. Religion is the excuse hateful people use to control others with their hate and fear. But Mark, cults have nothing to do with God. You and Jerami come as close to decribing who God really is than anyone I have heard on this HubPage. You know it, and you felt it. God is in your heart. His "Word" as they call it was written on your heart from a Child. You and a man living in the deepest forest in the world that never saw a Bible know God. You cant learn the love of God from a book changed by angry souls who wanted to control the masses with hate and fear. Their personal prejudices are all through the Bible and so obvious. People who hate go though the and pick out verses written by twisted souls; then they say God said it. If you are force to read the bible and take it literally; you will find fault with it. But if you read it with an open mind, you will see all the stories in the Bible have one specific theme, and says one basic thing. The judge in the movie BONFIRE OF THE VANITIES said it best. "Go home and be Decent People. Just Be Decent."
Gods wrote his word on your heart. You only have to listen to it.
Out of respect for believers and non-believers I have requested that this thread be closed so that nobody gets banned due to this thread.
No one 'finds' God. HE/SHE /IT....finds YOU.
Beware anyone who tries to point you in the right direction. The path to you is unique to you.
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