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How can Christ be the saviour of unbelievers if they will still perish in hell?
If Christ be in no sense the Savior of unbelievers,why are unbelievers called upon to believe in Christ as their Savior?
I don't fully understand your question. Christ is the savior to unbelievers, if they let him be that. If they don't choose to believe then they are nonbelievers and they go to hell. He wants to save everyone and he wants to be their savior but if they don't accept him then they go to hell.
If He doesnt save the unbeliever, He is not their saviour
I see the point you're trying to make but I think you're just smearing the wordage. He is the savior to unbelievers if they want to be saved. But yes, if he doesn't save the unbeliever then he didn't save them and they shall perish.
So if you are stuck in a burning car wreck and someone offers to pull you safely from the wreckage and you refuse the offer, is he still your saviour? Btw, the definition of saviour is one who saved someone, not someone who offers salvation
As I said "Christ is the savior to unbelievers, if they let him be that". And again in the second post "he is the savior to unbelievers if they want to be saved". If someone doesn't want to be pulled from a wreckage then they don't have a savior.
I agree, the man is not a saviour and niether is Christ according to your beliefs.
I am sorry Braided, I accidently deleted your last comment. Could you please rewrite it.
Just saying that I believe in Christ and he IS my savior. That's my beliefs. Whether he is your savior or not is determined all on whether you invite him in or not. He can be your savior or your judge. The choice is yours.
Christ is also my saviour, as a matter of fact, all will eventually believe in Him and the grace of God.
I agree. Whether they are burning in Hell or standing beside him, all will believe.
No, all will agree and recieve salvation. This is the real good news
SOM, where is this scene where everyone believes in Christ & comes out of hell, in the Bible/Word of God? It's not in there. It's your own desire. Hitler will be in heaven? No, not likely. You can base your belief on yourself or God, your choice.
@SnT Why do you judge and condem Hitler? The very fact that you say he should not be in heaven says alot about yourself and your own desires for wanting a hell.
Christ is the savior of all mankind, period. The difference maker is whether or not someone accepts salvation. I've heard some atheists state that even if God and Jesus are shown to be real, they still would not follow because they want no part of a God that will allow so much bad and evil things to occur in the world they have so much power in.
Actually I like to pull an old quote on matters like this.
If a god is just than they will not care how often you sat in prayer but how often you cared for your fellow man. If a god is unjust than they are not worth your praise to start with.
It's a matter of ego.
Give up your ego and live (everlasting life = continuity of consciousness of a fully awakened spiritual being no longer dependent upon physical perception), or keep your ego and die (perish thoroughly when this world can no longer sustain Homo sapiens, and the spirit which relies on physical perception no longer has these bodies).
Unbelievers have a choice. Accept the help of the rescuer or spit in his face and stay in the pit. The pit has a lot of apparent conveniences, but those are only temporary. When Earth becomes a lake of fire, the long asleep spiritual children of God who fell from grace and can no longer see without human eyes, will be left with a nightmare of perpetual sleep. See the film, "Waking Life," for a taste. Only I suspect the dreams could get ugly from time to time, especially with an eternity being stuck without a body.
And when will Earth become a lake of fire? At least in 3-4 billion years, possibly sooner, if it's not the aging sun that does it.
Savior is his character--his label--his role. That stays the same whether a person accepts or rejects the "saving" he offers. For example, if a millionaire placed a large sum of money in a bank account for me and told me it was mine if I wanted it, the millionaire remains a millionaire whether I ever go to the bank and withdraw the funds or not.
What he is remains fixed--constant. What other people choose in relationship to him is the variable. They choose whether to apply the saving and enter into relationship with the Savior or not.
One more example--I am a teacher--it is my job, role, and function. If I show up to work and notice that only 15 out of 20 students enrolled show up, that does not mean I am now not a teacher because 5 students didn't show up. They decided not to become my student. I'm still a teacher.
So if a man offers to save you from a burning car reck and you refuse his offer, does that still make him your saviour?
In theory, Yes it does, But he can't save those that don't want to be saved. Just like at Nazareth when he was rejected. He didn't force himself on his people. he helped who believed then went on his way. He was still saviour, but they refused him
Sorry deepes, you are starting to make no sense to me. All will eventually except their saviour. Some now while in the flesh and the rest at the cunsumation of all things.
I actually agree with you, SOM. People will eventually accept their saviour, But some of them will first have to go through the experience of being separated from him before they will change. I meant that upon first attempt they will not accept him
What will this seperation be like? While in the flesh or afterwards?
The separation will be of the spirit once we have passed from these earthly shells. It's similar to when we tried to reject what our parents taught us, then understand better once out from under their protection.
OK. I shall think about that. Thanks Deepes
So I picture it like this (hypothetical situation). Me- I still choose not to accept you... God- Oh really? Fine, Go out there and do it ALL on your own.. Me (after the experience) You were right, I'm sorry. Just like some kids do to their parents
The only thing about the concept of people "eventually" accepting is that the text (Bible) says their separation will be forever. They will all acknowledge this is who he is--yet they will not all accept him as in a relational/connectedness stance.
the word forever is not found in the ancient Hebrew or Greek writings. Olam in Hebrew and aionos in Greek share the same meaning. Age, not eternity.
That makes sense too seek. The separation is what will cause people to burn (as in be consumed by passion or desire, not in literal fire)
My husband is the word smith among us--he knows the ancient Greek, Hebrew, ancient pictograph languages etc. I'll ask him to weigh in on the discussion later tonight! I"m sure he would have something interesting to share. Good questions you ask!
Yes, but you rejected your savior. Same as if a lawyer offered to represent you in court and you decided to go in alone, he's still a lawyer. Or if a cop tries arrest you and you resist his arrest and get away, still a cop. Identity same.
That is right, he is a lawyer, but a saviour is someone who has already saved someone. If he has not saved me for what ever reason, he is not my saviour.
Swordo, I see you don't want to see the simple truth, or admit it because you just keep saying the same phrase over & over without presenting reason/logic for it. The truth is someone's identity isn't dependent on others' actions, including a sav
I think I understand. The definition of saviour is someone who actually SAVES someone, not OFFERS salvation. By that definition if someone refuses to be saved then Christ cannot be a saviour.
Is there a question beneath your question? Whether the question is answered yes or no, how does that change things-or does it change anything? It seems like semantics issue. Is there a reason you want to know? Thanks!
No question, just basically explaining why SOM keeps using the same statements and asking SOM to confirm my explanation
Thanks Deeps--but oops! I meant to address that question to SOM. But thanks for your answer anyway! Sometimes I think the question is, "Why are we asking this question?"
Correct Deepes, I am in argument with church doctrine that states that even if Christ does not save some, He is still their saviour, and that makes no sense at all. They should chech the definition of what a saviour really is.
Here is the dictionary definition: sav·ior [seyv-yer] noun
1.a person who saves, rescues, or delivers
2.a title of God, especially of Christ
The definition places the emphasis on the action/character of what it means to be a savior, not on response
1, a person who has rescued someone, is the only answer in websters Dict and I noticed how you added 2 in to fit your doctrines.
I didn't add to the definition...I excluded defn number 3 because these response boxes limit your characters :-( But here is the link to the website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/savior?s=t
Thank you. You have just confirmed my belief. Because the reason why Christ recieved this title is because He will save all mankind (1Tim4:10)
Sword, this is semantic details, revealing something more underneath. In one sense/facet, Christ is only the savior of those who believe in Him, because they experience it. Or said another way, He's the savior of all people, but not all experience it
Phil 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Everyone will eventually believe and be saved.
som yes he was you were foolish enough to refuse his help that is not his fault that is your stupidity showing
stop playing your silly semantics games
Each individual is responsible for choosing to make Jesus their Savior.....although, Jesus came to save whosoever that would receive and believe in Him.....one must invite Jesus into one's heart and ask forgiveness. Without this process and these steps one is not saved. Jesus came not to condemn the world but to save the world! It is one's personal choice to receive salvation or condemnation.....no one can make that choice for another. Since God will not go against one's will.....He will not force Himself on anyone.....one must choose Him. One does not have to believe in hell to go there.....but, one must believe in and receive Jesus to get to heaven.....there is no other way!
if I am wrong then you have nothing to fear.....but, if I am right.....you will have a rude awakening. Not worth and argument with you!
And why will I have a rude awakening sister? Because I dont believe in hell?
1John 4:18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
Thanks for your question. For the first part/phrase. Because He saved them by dying for their sins and rising from the dead, but they just didn't choose to experience that salvation, but He is still the savior. His saviorhood is established and independent of man's decisions, already done. Man's experience of Him as their savior is not established and is dependent on man's decision to receive or reject Him. Just as a son that runs away from his father out of selfishness, it doesn't unmake the father as his father, but the son is not experience his father's fatherhood.
For the the second part of your question. He already is their savior, but for them to experience that they have to believe it, that is why they are called upon to believe in Him.
As far as the Hebrew & Greek. Both "olam" & "ainos" are used in reference to both heaven/life and hell/death as well as God, God's existence/being (Ps. 90), God's reign (Ex. 15) , reigning with Christ (Rev. 22), etc. In Mat. 25 Jesus said the sheep would go into eternal/ainos life and the goats into eternal/ainos fire/punishment. Intellectual honesty/logic, demands that both of these be interpreted the same way, not just the one that's uncomfortable emotionally, and surely Jesus wasn't promising life only for a time/age. Also, there's no explicit verses or references to people getting out of hell/the lake of fire in the Word of God, it's not in there. At the end of all things, in Revelation it has the righteous reigning with Christ forever and ever/aionios kai aionos, as well as unbelievers/people not in the book of life being tormented in the lake of fire along with Satan and demons forever and ever (same Greek). Also Jesus calls the "age/world" to come "eternal life" so the next "age" will last forever. So trying to use the Word of God to say that hell is not eternal, is not valid.
But, more importantly it seems, the root of your words here are not intellectual but emotional. I see that you don't like the idea of eternal hell and punishment, for whatever reasons, and I don't either, neither does God (Ezk. 33, "I the LORD take no pleasure in the death of the wicked but rather when they repent), but it is what is just/right, just as when a judge sentences a murderer to death or a criminal to prison, he wouldn't be a good judge if he didn't and he'd get thrown out. I'm sorry if people have unlovingly tried to angrily force these things upon you or shun you or whatever, that is not good and not the heart of God.
It is not that I dont like hell. It is that I know it does not exist. Christ paid for the sins of all men and He will get what He paid for. Our judical system is based on our desires of punishment, but it hard for Christians to believe absolute mercy
Doesn't exists? Above you say its only temporary. Read 23 Minutes in Hell by Bill Wiese & ask him who has been to hell of it's existence & utter torment, difficult to accept but real. The Word shows absolute mercy doesn't cancel out absolute
Are you kidding me? Bill Weiss contradicts himself so many times with his books and videos. You actually believe that liar? 2Pet2:3 sums it up with his fairy tale.
What contradictions? Also ask him who wrote Pilgrim's Progress. The woman who died and went to hell & came back from Siberia in Father of Lights. & many others. Not everything you don't agree with/want to be true is 2Ptr 2:3. Read verses 1-2,
You see, you yourself just contradicted your own belief. All you evengalicals claim that when you die and go to hell, there is no 2nd chance, yet you believe in stories of claims of those who died, went to hell and came back.
The " salvation " has been provided and is available to every person who will excersised free will to choose by simple faith - receive it by believing.
( simple explanation : a banquet table is prepared ,loaded with best imaginable food for every person , some will refuse to come and receive free gift/food, how come that they will still starve themselves to death ?
He is a better explanation of salvation for all. You (All mankind) are walking in the forest when a bear charges at you. You are certain to die, than a hunter comes and shoots the bear dead saving you without your acceptance to be saved.
No. The Word of God shows something more like, the bear is coming at you and the shooter is ready to shoot at your free will agreement. God is not a rapist, but a wooing lover. Thank you for your thoughts though. True love has to have free choice.
by SwordofManticorE5 years ago
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