"Every word of God is pure"
"And kill every woman who has slept with a man."
God damn virgins! The moral of the story is F**k'em all! ROTFLMAO!!!!
So, does numbers 31:17 actually promoting lesbianism?
Just a thought?
"Every word of God is pure"
And, if every word of God is pure- Doesn't that mean there is a conspiracy theory God has put in motion himself that tells man to go against his own nature, so they can be punished after death?
Why not post more than the one verse?
Num 31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against Jehovah in the matter of Peor, and so the plague was among the congregation of Jehovah.
Num 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
This was about a war.
pure yes, but the other one, is just lifted from a long story,
hmmm, shirtless man
LOL don't look at a certain angle but in the whole picture...
And then they ridicule believers for their "interpretations"!
What a load of KROCK!
It is a krock! yes. I was not interpreting gods words as the truth. I was making note of the contradiction of the bible. With purpose I selected those two verse. If you cannot see the difference between my quoting as a hermeneutic exercise and you interpreting as gospel... Your loss.
31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
Here is the entire passage not leaving anything out, what my perception of this means: Every man who has laid with a child should be killed and every woman that has allowed it to happen and knew about it, should also be killed for this is not pure. You left some things out and incest, rape, and pedophilia is wrong any woman that allows it to happen really has a few mental issues and needs to be addressed it should never, ever hurt to be a child !
Hey AEvans, How are you today?
I'm sorry, but I don't see 'how' you reached your conclusion that this statement is about incest or rape or pedophilia for that fact.
I don't mean to sound rude or come across that way, but there is too much ambiguity in the singular statement to arrive such a conclusion. No offense.
As stated earlier- by SirDent and Others- this statement is part of a broader message about "War"?
So, please explain your position and how you achieve your understanding? I'm only interested in seeking knowledge and increasing my understanding of others, and the way they for their own foundation for beliefs.
I'm not trying to attack your beliefs, but to understand them.
I based my conclusion when I read the entire scripture on-line I will not discredit anyone especially Sir Dent because he knows that Bible like the back of his hand. Here is the link and I may have read into it incorrectly but it was my perception based on the two passages. http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/num/31.html Yes it speaks of war at the very beginning and it talks about war through the passages but the 2 passages you picked lead me to believe it had to do with incest and a mother not protecting her children. I guess since I am a mom I may have read into it to deeply.
Thank you for your answer and I followed that link you provided to the site and read what you read and still didn't come to the same conclusion, but that's okay.
I told you I read into it to deeply! Always a mom , always protecting, lololol
Did someone teach this to be the meaning of the scriptures you read? I understand a totally different take on it based on the vengence on the Midianites. There is a reference of killing unclean boy's and every woman that has slept with a man save the virgins because of a plague. After a week anyone who touched these Midianites was allowed to return to the camp. Even the gold and silver plunder had to be melted down before anyone could touch it. Please explain further where I have missed your meaning.
"For God sent not his son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved."
Maybe one of you gentlemen can help me out.
I'm looking for a scripture written by Paul.
Something like, "that which I should do, I do not. And that which I should not do, I do".
Can please tell me where to find this statement, and please feel free to tell me what you think it means?
I'm not looking to start a fight or argument, I'm looking for knowledge and understanding of it. I'm trying to get other people's view. So, please indulge.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I know not: for not what I would, that do I practise; but what I hate, that I do.
Rom 7:16 But if what I would not, that I do, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not.
Rom 7:19 For the good which I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I practise.
Rom 7:20 But if what I would not, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then the law, that, to me who would do good, evil is present.
What Paul is talking about is the difference between flesh and spirit. The spirit wants to do good, but the flesh sometimes gets in the way of the spirit.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?
The body of death is the flesh.
That was the quick, short version but the main message is there.
You say it's about the spirit and flesh?
The one statement I asked about.
Yes. I put the other verses there to show more of the story.
Okay, so that tells me that he was in Conflict with himself.
You got it. His flesh was in conflict with his spirit.
So, he keeps doing things he is not suppose to be doing, even though he knows it is wrong. This means, that he is not listening to his conscience.
Even the conscience of a man is wrong sometimes. What he is actually saying is that he is not perfect. He strives to be perfect but hasn't reached his goal yet.
But, perfection can never be obtained, not on any sustained level for an absolute period of time. One can achieve perfection, once in a great while, through honest action, but to achieve the level of perfection talked about is unachieveable by any standard, because mankind is flawed, and we know it.
It is for each of us to accept that we are flawed, and move on. I strive in perfection in my thoughts and my actions, but I do with belief in myself and faith in my own abilities. I know I am going to make mistakes, but that doesn't stop me from doing things.
This I guess was more productive than I thought it would be.
You are correct here. Perfection itself is pure and completely undefiled in any way.
Right again. The Bible says we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God
Here is where we differ. Even though I strive to be perfect, I cannot be perfect. I do not follow my ownself nor do I have faith in myself. My abilities are to limited. Only God is limitless.
Glad it was productive for you.
Why do we differ?
You and I- shouldn't differ.
You should have faith in yourself.
How do you live otherwise?
You have limited abilities, includes thinking.
How do you do anything?
Understanding "GOD" is limitless- is to understand that YOU are limitless, because you're made in his image.
If you're made in his image, then it makes sense that you would have unlimited power of wisdom to discern and think introspect, so as to form a solid belief system and guide oneself.
The message you are meant to achieve isn't obtainable.
If I have faith in myself, I am then calling myself God. God did not make a mess of things. It was man that messed up.
I have some abilities, yes, but God has all abilities.
We can only knwo in part becasue we are limited in oruselves. Noone can fully understand God and there's no point in even trying. God cannot be explained. He can only be revealed.
Adam was created in the image and likeness of God. This didn't make him God. He was meant to live forever. His body was eternal. After he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, his body changed. The spirit of death entered into the picture.
Perfection can only be attained in Jesus Christ.
Yes correct one needs to merge his will with the cosmic will and do the right thing.
Do you often interrupt other people's conversations?
Just answering your question.Lets just debate without these digs, have had enough from you.
Still, it does strike me as a good strategy to ask a Bible-believing Christian about biblical verses and theology, rather than someone, well, from "outside the fold", if I can put it that way
Well, I was trying to clear something up and the only way I could clear it up, was to find the right scripture that I was looking for.
Since, I was here and there were a bunch of people who followed religious scripture, it might be a good place to discuss it.
And, SirDent was kind enough to provide me the knowledge I wanted.
I don't doubt that. And the simple fact that you want to debate is proof of that.
Btw, it wasn't a question that was directed at you. Just to let you know. And, Yes, I do have a sense of etiquette and can be civilized. But, it's your delivery that I find annoying.
I get that you are full of yourself and I'll oblige, for a while. The only reason being, I'm interesting to see how well, you think you know your craft? So, kinda a test.
So, what next?
How do I know it was not directed at me? Its an open question and was not directed at anyone in particular.I am still nice with you but I have my limit.
Can anyone point to a passage where Jesus' work was classified as religious work?
Locate any scripture available?
Did he ever mention to any of his followers that he teachings were religious?
Not in so many words. Jesus said, "Follow me." That would make it a religion sort of. James wrote about pure religion, Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
But, did Jesus really have followers? Or students?
He did teach them didn't he?
Yes, He had followers then and still has them now.
So, you're of the understanding that Jesus' work was always part of religious teachings? Yes or No, and please explain?
Jesus work was always a part of God's teachings. Not necessarily religious teachings.
Denominations started with Cain and Abel. Cain wanted to do things different. He ended up killing his brother because of it. This is where all religions started.
Okay, I am of the understanding that 'religion', nevermind God's teachings- is a business....the #1 income generating source on the planet and I also know the basic knowledge, as to describing what 'religion' is.
Religion is a code of ethics, bonded or bound, to a higher cause.
Now, I have my own background and experience, that tells me that 'religion' is false and it worships a false idol.
From what I gather- you look at it as "God's Teachings", and I commend you for that.
Can I ask you one more thing- Who is God exactly?
I ask, because I am a failed student of the teaching of religion, I broke thru the hoax it purports. I am able to introspect on many things, at different levels of clarity and seeing through 'religion' was quite easy, once I understood what I was looking for.
But, I'm not trying to mock you or your belief. Your belief- it's view- of God's Teachings--is of interest. How do you separate God's Teachings from Religious teachings, if you use the same quotes? Same scripture?
Please do tell, I am interested in knowing.
So, what's next?
Do you have anything to add to the discussion I set forth?
I asked if you were going to ADD anything else to the discussion?
Because, if you have nothing to say, then I will be on my way.
You were the one who wanted to debate something?, unknown what exactly that is suppose to be? Because, you haven't said.
You asked me not to cast diggs at you. And, I said I would oblige, but you come with nothing?
So, now what?
Fine you want to know about god.
Who is god?
He, she and it is god. God is, has, was, will.
Where is god?
Everywhere is god, nowhere is god.
What sort of a thing is god?
Everything is god.
God is love, god is the light.
When does god come?
When the madness stops, when death becomes.
How do I see god?
With your eyes closed and with your eyes open.
What have I to do with god?
You are his creation, you are a part of him.
When do I see, meet god?
Whenever you really decide to,
When you want nothing.
You know, you shouldn't be so testy. Your use of the word 'fine', at the begin, says you're upset with me.
Just to let you know- you shouldn't lead by emotion. It's not healthy.
This is your explanation for 'What GOD Is'?
Okay. I'm glad to see, you enjoy living with such knowledge. Do you practice what you preach?
No just fooling around saying I am enlightened and spending years of my life to write a book on god.Why else would my work be ranked with Bibles?
You do realize that people do spend their entire life, claiming to be enlightened, yet they have no clue.
I've run across more people who know nothing about their religion, because they've never studied it.
I spent a good portion of the first 17 years of my life, as a part of the 'Catholic' religion. Then I spent the another 23 years studying it in-depth.
So, I've personally accepted the challenge of living my life by doctrines and came to a self-realization, and a conclusion.
Why you work is ranked at all is beyond me and not for to care about. It has no sufficient baring on this case. Regardless, if your work was the #1 read book in all the world, it would make no difference.
Only reason being is I, who matters, don't recognize your standing.
Cannot force you to relate with what I say but do understand many are able to relate and appreciate .You claim to have spend 20 years researching on religions and come up with a statement that religions have nothing to do with god.
Why should a book ranked next to Bibles be so insignificant for you.?
I know what I went through to put this book together, if you think its is easy you are only fooling yourself.We are on a religious forum.
What self realization have you come to ? god doesn't exist?
Religions are a business. Each religion has a code of ethic and are bonded or bound to a higher cause.
Most religions equate the higher cause to be GOD's will.
When the truth is- NO ONE knows what God's will is truly and the bible used by religions, this includes every other bible or renamed bible- is false.
In my study, I found Jesus' work wasn't religion, but he was a teacher. You and I have had this conversation before.
And, you agreed on some points, but not on others.
I find it interesting that NOT all of Jesus' work was included in religion. Why? I know why now.
Why doesn't religious scriptures have ALL his disciples writings included? I know why now.
Because, it's based on a mystical philosophy for which it is damning to the nature of a human being.
I'm not taking anything away from your accomplishment. But, I don't have to recognize it either. It is my choice.
Yes, God doesn't exist and to understand it, the teaching must be fully absorbed and accepted, and applied.
The ACT of being selfless leads to be selfish.
The ACT of suppressing desires is self-destructive.
The ACT of 'knowing' GOD is to come to the self-realization that there is no god.
You can not KNOW something that doesn't exist, even if you tell yourself it does exist. It is biologically impossible to obtain perfection, as a human being. It is biologically impossible to force the will to believe in something one isn't sure is real.
Example: If you have a ball in your hand, and you will yourself to believe the ball isn't in your hand- it's impossible to do. And, on the other hand- if you don't have a ball in your hand, it is also impossible for you to believe that you do have a ball in your hand.
Therefore- no human being can ever be 100% positive that God does actually exist.
Hence, the hope or faith bestowed is for nothing, because 'religion' teachings can not get the job done. It only leads to self-destruction if followed.
Contradiction.Enlightened one- one who has become the Light or god.
As good as saying I am an atheist and god exists.
The first step to enlightenment, lose the high chair.
What is the meaning of enlightenment ? There are no steps.
The meaning is to find yourself and individual purpose, not anothers belief and purpose. I think we have different meanings.
It finding who you are, your inner or god self is the Light.Dying becoming this Light and coming back is enlightenment.
We are not talking about some mundane enlightenment like oh I got to exercise or eat more or less or get up early or have had too many girl friends should settle down etc.These mundane thoughts are very common for all of humanity.
maybe because you are unenlightened you choose to play judge to my spiritual philosophy?
Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)
You missed this one;
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Or did you????
No, just REJECTED it.
Sorry! I forgot!
You always think I'm talking to you.
I actually thought there were others here.
Of course not!
You said so time and again. He won't bother you with something you don't want.
In fact, I stopped (trying) to address you personally with this (salvation message)ages ago. I have no idea why you think I mean YOU every time I post something.
So - I do not need saving then? Because it seemed to me that you just told me I do, but I don't want it.
Everyone else needs saving, but not me is that right?
You write for a living, ye?
What part of my last post do you not understand?
Maybe re-read it s l o w l y, and take in every word, in context of the sentence, and then you might understand! (I'm hopeful!?)
I am well aware what it says dj. It says you are a liar and using semantics to tell me that you do indeed think I need saving.
Which is garbage.
And you wonder why your religion is despised?
Saved from what? The mess he created? Why didn't he create it clean instead of creating a mess? Are we his "free will" experiment?
I thought you might have been up to speed on the creation story, and the "fall of man".
You said he created man. If he created man, he created the fall of man. Keep using your interpretation to feel better about your irrational belief.
It might be healthy if you knew what Man was in the first place and what meaning HE(humankind) has?
Don't you think....it would be helpful?
It's about the whole book, the religionists post this stuff aplenty! I like to see both pages!
Just wasn't looking at the time dj. Did I announce myself as the overlord of bible concordance? No. I slapped together two contrasting biblical quotes and fed it to the forums as an exercise of humour.
You should know by now, that words on a screen cannot convey the difference between a joke and a criticism. If you intend a joke,say so, or put jk. Maybe a smiley.
In any case, you are well aware of the sensitive nature of these forums, so I take it as a double meaning.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I won't make you (have a little) spew, by apologizing for my "interpretation".
You shouldn't assume so much. I 'REJECTED ''it''? Did I? Are you that lost? You think I care enough about Act 2:21 that I am willed to REJECT it? LOL! You don't have the slightest idea about me.
I don't know. Maybe this is TOO simplistic for you but, here goes.
There is this thing called TIME. We live in it and it controls us. We don't control time. So, the things written for a PAST (time), say, like in the OT, to the Hebrews/Jews, just may not apply today.
We, living in the NT era, are (supposed) to listen to/live by the NT.
So, even though it's God's word you read in the OT, it (just) may not apply to you and/or me PERSONALLY today.
No intellectual postering thanks. Intended personal insult noted.
Are you choosing to ignore your own book? I have never understood why you chop and change what you will accept as truth in your book, what you take literally, what you have to fit into a "time frame" The psychotic nonsense in the old testament is not to do with time frames, it's got to do with the displays of psychosis by a supposed god!
Not worth a reply. It leads to no-where. So, I just let (them) have the last say. It's OK!
That was a bit lame. You just had to get the last word in but you pretend to be so smooth
No I am no more surprised this time than the last 100 unanswered from religionists.
I enjoy all of it I guess. Religions teach a lot of fear based junk, they can't see past their psychotic book.
See what I mean?
Obviously, the mentality is, the last one to post must be the winner. Whoever leaves must have given up, and is a loser.
OK, I lose. No doubt there will be another poston top of this one, but I'm off now.
Earnest knows, it's 11;20-something here. Have fun.
Don't mess up and no problem. It's your job to protect women not corrupt them.
Oh? Care to explain that or is it just so simple only an idiot wouldn't understand?
To sit at the head of the table you have implied responsibilities, if you don't know that by now you need to have a chat with your father.
The head of the table huh? Say no more.
You assume too much and your values are out of touch. My father agrees with me.
not my job to protect women. Where did you get that one?
Which women should I protect sneako?
All of them? One, two? My mum? The starving children in africa? The civilian mothers and children in Iraq? What?
Jude vs. 25
"To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."
Okay, I want to talk about this one.
"To the only wise God our Saviour"?
What God are you talking about?
What Saviour are you talking about?
"Be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever"?
This part of your statement makes something noble out of nothing. How can you apply nobility to a non-existent entity?
"Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen."
Okay, I know I'm a little slow, but please explain what exactly that means, I mean, in lyman terms, if possible?
"Lyman's" Terms? That's better than just a "Freudian slip".
I thought this thread was for posting the pure word of God. "Rattle them off" is what the man said. I offer you no explanation. Rather, I offer a celebration. Those that know the Lord understand the passages that I post and they appreciate them. As for others, well, I can’t make everyone happy.
Instead of asking me, why don't you crack the books and start studying...
Been there, done that.
The bible is open for interpretations and each person has their own interpretation of written word.
Therefore, it leads one to conclude that independant assessment and explanation is needed for better understanding.
Only a person, who doesn't understand their own beliefs won't explain, they will simply direct you to the words.
The Bible is not up for interpretation. 2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
The Bible is revealed by the Holy Ghost.
Didn't your wife feed you this evening marine? Why so grouchy?
lol I'm not grouchy, I just thought it seemed like the proper time to throw that line in. How are you doing?
I am doing well. If you continue what your previous post to what I post then I will inbgore you.
I often wonder what someone would say to me if I went to calling their dad and mom names like you did above.
Have you ever stopped to think and analyze why you have so much emotions and feelings tied into your belief?
As I wrote my newest hub I thought of you often. I won't link it here but you know how to find it.
If I called your dad a dirty or bad name, would you get emotional?
I wouldn't kill him. I would use logic to control my emotions.
I think it would be more respectful if you would answer my question with an answer instead of a question.
And why do you think so many emotions are tied into your belief and faith?
Do you admit that emotions contradict logic?
Emotions do not contradict logic. Emotions are a part of who we are.
Look at your baby and tell me you can't get emotional. You see the baby lying there or sitting. Emotions do come up, yet the fact is that the baby is there.
Faith is built on evidence. Faith is not tied to emotions.
Logic is also part of who we are. If we acted purely off of emotions with no capability of reason and logic, we would all be running around like animals. There are a lot of people that don't use reason and logic in life. Most are in prison. Faith is emotions. I didn't say emotions weren't good, I said we have the ability to separate from emotions to make logical decisions.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Evidence is necessary for faith. Emotions are simply a by product of faith.
Faith is not evidence. Faith is belief without evidence. Logic is the search for evidence. Evidence isn't necessary for faith, emotions are necessary for faith.
Did you ever answer my question of why you have so much emotion tied into your belief?
I don't recall you asking that question. You asked if I ever stopped to think about it.
Alright, I'm asking it now. Why are so many emotions tied into your belief?
Emotions are tied into everything. It is part of who we are.
You don't think emotions can be separated from a belief?
I believe in the music I create and trust me,
it contains plenty of emotions.
Can you remove all of your emotions? It is impossible.
The bible is truth, Scripture can have diffrent applications for the problems that each of us may have.
However 'prophesy' has no personal interpretation.
When prophesy is interpreted the ramifications are felt through out scripture.
Our interpretations may be flawed but This does not take away from the truth as written is scripture.
God is true, and every man lies, he's basically stating an obvious. Kinda like, "a nickel will get you spit" Bad example but you get my drift right Cagsil?
People does many things with it. It remains the same.
You can do many things with a ball bat. You can play a game with it or you may control someone with it. It has the same character regardless of what people do with it.
Logic is flawed unless it considers all things. Emotions are a thing that Logic must consider
Emotional belief contradicts logical belief, no matter how you try to twist it.
There are some things that can not be separated.
Life, emotions, logic.
To eliminate one from this mix is like taking baking powder out of a cake mix recipe. Yea you can still eat it however flat it becomes.
No. You're somewhere else which isn't where you think it is...
Logic is a process that brings a person to a conclusion.
Logical assertions are not necessarily the truth. A truth is a truth regardless of the system that brings us to it.
Evidence is not necessary to have faith BUT Most everyone of faith feels that they have evidence to support their faith.
One mans trash is another's treasure. What one man calls evidence another disregards, and vice=Visa
Truth and Logic are contained in One Person
and it takes faith to believe in that One Person.
Totally true!!! And it does not matter who is having that faith and who it is directed at.
What does it take to believe the bible?
I can see the invisible with eyes that cannot be seen.
I can believe the impossible because I have those eyes.
I can hear beyond this realm as well.
Faith is an action, not a belief.
It is late, must you answer in parables? You aren't Jesus. So it takes the action of faith to believe the bible? The faith that contradicts logic?
My faith and logic and action and truth all co-exist peacefully.
This is my belief as a whole.
this truly is a boring deb ate that makes no sense - sorry guys - I'm outta here have Fun!
I have some things tnhat need my attention. I will be back shortly to continue. Carry on in an orderly fashion.
I think there are so many emotions tied into the belief to prevent the person from individualizing from the belief.
You see and hear with the natural eyes and ears only...
this is a hindrance.
Faith can at times defy logic.
Faith is evidence that logic cannot always see.
Logic has a shortsighted view.
Knowledge and Wisdom, combined with Logic, becomes belief, reinforced by faith.
Faith: is to be unquestioned belief something is true.
The only way for 'faith' to be unquestioned, is if it is reinforced by a belief, created from logic, which is based on knowledge and Wisdom.
If you cannot make 'faith', in the order, in which, I have provided. Then you have morally wronged yourself and your life.
It is NOT logic, nor intelligent, to base a belief on something not based on reality. It's wrong. If you base a belief on something that can not be proven to be real, then you are gullible and lack knowledge and/or wisdom, to make a logical based belief.
Your faith is misplaced, and should be in yourself, to know and understand your life, and guide oneself. The only two places FAITH should be placed- (1) In yourself, and (2) Other people.
lol and faith isn't blind? Do you think about this stuff before you write it, or do you just throw it out because it sounds good to you?
Forensic exeprts examine evidence. After examining the evidence they come to a conclusion. They didn't actually see what happened, but they have faith that their conclusion is right based upon the evidence gathered.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
No, you are wrong. They take logical steps in finding out what happened. They do not get irrational and excited about the first peice of evidence they think they have and believe they have the case solved. Go present a case in a courtroom based purely on faith without logic and see how quick you get stuck in the crazy house.
I did not say they got irrational about the first piece of evidence. You are twisting what I said around. If they have 20 pieces of evidence or a thousand, they still didn't actually see what happened.
It is as easy to say that I have no logical reason to believe that If I can not see it from my front porch or on my drive to work, then it does not exist without having faith that it does.
A logical mind can find reasons to logically deny anything that it does not want to accept. Excuses and alibis are everywhere. The air we breath is full of them. Just pick one that applies to whatever that you want to apply it to.
I trust my faith farther than I do my reason.
Here's my beef (as I've posted before).
It is not illogical to believe in God in general, because you cannot demonstrate logically that God does not exist (not talking about what characteristics he has, just whether he exists).
However, it is not logical that an all-compassionate all-merciful, and all-powerful God would stand by and watch millions of fairly decent, or even just average, people end up in hell. It is literally illogical.
You are right. He grieves when he sees those who refuse Him. He longs to save them from the fate that they choose. He gives them a way out of all the pain that is ahead.
He is also a gentleman. If you tell Him or ask Him to leave you alone, He will do it.
- But if I have made a sincere effort to consider Christianity (which I have), and if honestly want to do the right thing, and my decision is that I can't accept Protestant theology exactly as presented (in North America, at least), then I have not "chosen hell." I have decided, using God-given intelligence, that this theology is not (completely) right.
- Also, an "all-compassionate loving father" would give his children free rein but step in when one of those children were in irreversible peril.
I recall saying something about you and I not having to agree. You are looking at the church denominations.
What you say when you speak of deciding yourself, you are rejecting the plan that God Himself made. You are in essence saying that your way is better than God's way.
A compassionate loving father always takes care of His own children completely. Do you discipline other people's children? and if so, how far can you go with your discipline?
The plan of salvation has absolutley nothing to do with me. It is not about me at all. it is about you and Jesus Christ coming together in agreement.
I don't have a beef with you personally -- in fact I quite enjoy your posts, whether I agree or not (you seem more balanced, on the whole, than some other posters, for example).
"Deciding for myself" is another way of saying "choosing." According to Christian theology, we are asked to make a choice when presented with the Gospel -- a choice as to whether or not we believe it. In other words, we are asked to employ the mental faculties (presumably) given us by God (and this includes the heart, in some way, I realize).
But if I decide I do not believe it, I have not said: "I understand the message, believe it, and now reject it"; I have taken the path required, ie, considered the message, and decided it does not make (complete) sense to me...
As to discipline. I have no problem with the notion that a father might discipline, but a loving father knows that a punishment must fit the crime, and the child must see some sense behind the discipline. For most people, they are simply not bad enough to deserve such a horrendous punishment.
I wasn't implying we had a beef. I remeber me saying to you a few nights ago that it doesn;t matter if we agree or not.
You are looking at the church. (I used to do the same thing) The church cannot save anyone. Theology doesn't really mean anything.
Have you given Jesus a fair chance?
Do you understand the message of Jesus Christ? Not trying to be thickheaded. Just want to know how much you do understand.
Do you discipline your neighbors children?
Yes. I was an evangelical for five years.
I didn't understand why you asked your last question
I just not exactly sure what Hell is. For many hundreds of years there has been many interpretations of what hell is.
It is sad to say but I have lost faith in interpretations, I do still have faith that there is a God, and an afterlife. In fact I believe that there is more life here and now than we are aware of.
For instance; I don't think all of "The Saved" all want to go to the same kind of heaven. My perfect heaven would be another's hell. What if the tree of Life tastes like boiled spinach.
It is almost midnight here so I am calling it a night. I will be back in the AM to check out what else transpires here. Thanks for the convo everyone
I believe god is possible but I don't believe in god. however, if there was a god and I live my life by the ethos that there is that possibility and I believe in good morals, if there is a god, then I only have logic to interpet that plan of living a decent life. I cannot talk to god but I can use my human knowledge of morals and of logic to live an ethical life. Logic does not dispel god. Some on these forums are very confused about logic and use the term as if it were some tool of athiesm or science or evolutionists. that just is not true. logic exists, it is pure, it is a form of mathematics. logic cannot prove evolution and nor can it prove religion. belief in god is about faith and you can use logic to strengthen your faith. logic is not about proof. logic is not more about evolution or science that it is about religion or god or any other thing. I have probably repeated myself here but I find it rather strange how something so basic can be so misunderstood. people should not use words they do not understand, it only makes the fool.
Faith in being a part of something larger than our human self (God, Universal Mind, etc..) and logic are both important, and can both have blindness when not balanced by the other in all decisions of life.
We were created with both potentials and are to use them in balance. Faith is the heart and intuition... and logic is the mind...we have both.
Being purely one way or the other is imbalanced.
So selective mark. I'm going to miss you. You are an art form, thats for sure.
I would like to think that I might remember you while i'm in Costa Rica- but i'm sure I'll have too much fun to remember your company.
maybe if i catch food poisoning.
If you have 2 kids and one of them sins, do you kill the one that sinned to teach the good one a lesson or do you logically explain why their moral action was wrong? What would the bible do?
The one who did wrong would be punished. I am no longer a child either. Are you?
Using children in place of adults is cowardly. When I was a child I understood as a child, but n ow I am a grown man. I understand that my actions cause reactions.
Nope, not a child. That's why I do the manly thing and form my indivdual belief rather than rely on a controlling book of illusions that limits my mind. It doesn't take a book to understand morals and a conscience. One belief is not absolute.
I thought Jesus was Gods child? You calling God a coward?
So you are saying you never examined the evidence?
If I never read it, I wouldn't know it better than you. That was logic and faith based.
I can only assume that you mean you read the Bible. Did you understand what you read?
Did you put it to the test? If so, what type of test?
You say in your hub that you believe the devil keeps me from believing the bible. Do you not think I haven't heard this before?
It doesn't matter if you have heard it a million times before. A person how is blind is blind until the blindness is taken away.
I got some things to do and will be back later.
This is not logical!!!!!! You think a mythical devil is keeping me from believing your belief. This is faith!!!!
I don't only believe it or think it. It is a fact that I know. The devil has you blinded. Only you can remove the blindness.
Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
Pro 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
They should have put one in there that says, "Refuse logic, logic is the devil!" That's pretty much what it tells you to do.
I am curious. Why didn't you go and read the hub I wrote last after I recommended it to you?
A ll that I can say about it is that the word of God is pure regardless of the pictures that we take of ALL of it. .
Silence is boreing to those that are lost finding themselves wanting for direction.
ok here i go
god says get off your knees
god says quit cry babying
god says im busy
god says dang you again
Here is a little of gods word to help keep the true believers shaking!
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Sure you've got the only true bible?
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