Why do Christians women utilize the 'sin' of abortion the most in the United Sta

1. 78

   Misfit Chickposted 8 years ago

   Why do Christians women utilize the 'sin' of abortion the most in the United States?
   
   This question is in response to the ignorant questions asked by Christians whose hearts are breaking over us supposedly uncaring humans 'murdering babies'. I have had it with being accused of being a heartless human when such hypocrisy exists. Source, guttmacher: seven in 10 US women obtaining an abortion report a religious affiliation (37% protestant, 28% Catholic and 7% other). The abortion rate for protestant women is 15 per 1,000 women, while Catholic women have a slightly higher rate, 22 per 1,000. If abortion is wrong, why do they do it? Why do they need a law to refrain from this sin?
   
   

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2. 69

   Travis Wakemanposted 8 years ago

   Murder is murder no matter who commits it. Sin is sin no matter who does it. I should probably think that at least some of the women cited are nominal "cultural" Christians who identify themselves as as "Christians" on a survey but who don't make any real effort to live out the Christian worldview.
   
   So far your argument appears to be an example of the tu quoque logical fallacy.
   
   I think you should try to understand why it is that the human fetus has personhood and thus a right to life that supersedes any rights that mother might have over bodily autonomy.

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      Ericdierkerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Where did those statistics come from -- Planned Parenthood?

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   2. 78

      Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I understand the 'personhood' of babies; and I understand that souls do not enter a fetus (which has no personhood) until the body is capable of doing so - often shortly before or after birth. Your religion creates hysteria & division from ignora

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   3. 69

      Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Looks like Guttmacher Inst.
      
      I should think it would be very interesting to analyze how much more or less likely having a strong religious affiliation affects the chances of having an abortion.

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   4. 78

      Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, guttmacher.org - the information is a few years old. I have had a few Christian friends have to make this choice - and more chose abortion than not because they feared their parents more than their God. Why? This is the reason for this question.

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   5. 69

      Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      You're still not focused on the question of whether or not the fetus is a person. If your friends believed that, then I don't think they would have elected to follow through. I'm still convinced that your statistics are misleading.

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   6. 78

      Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Those statistics can be found in other places if you don't like the source I used. Do a search. They will vary slightly. These girls KNOW what they are doing when they go in for an abortion. They have been taught all their lives how wrong it is...

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   7. 79

      lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I think the womans life supersedes the growing fetus. It is dumb, cruel, and economically ruinous to have a child unwanted. It can be prevented, and should be. Here, have this child, then watch it die by gunfire, bomb, starvation. That's OK with god!

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   8. 69

      Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      @Les
      
      In situations when it is one life or another, sure. But you'd be insane to say that it's okay to kill a baby rather than give it a chance at life.

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   9. 79

      lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      It's insane to expect a woman to give  up hers for your religious views!

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   10. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       @Les
       
       Taking care of the baby you've made is tough? Therefore kill it? In what universe does that seem like the most compassionate response? One can always give up for adoption.

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       Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Yes, until 3,000 extra babies are put up for adoption every day and there aren't nearly enough people wanting to adopt them.

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   12. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Even if that were true, would that be better or worse that murdering 3000 people a day?

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       Link10103posted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Doesn't seem all that compassionate to the mother and the child to force her to have a baby she either doesn't want or literally is unable to care for, or to force her to give it up to someone else.
       
       Hello impasse...

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   14. 79

       lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Back to my solution-there is only one true way for 100% no abortion:either have no sex--Yeah right, men will go for that.Or force vasectomies on all baby boys.When they want a child, they can have it reversed. No public funds used:Forehyde amendment.

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   15. 72

       Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       I'm sure that depends on your perspective. Just wanted to throw it out there that giving every baby up for adoption would have its own crappy outcome for most kids.

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   16. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Forcibly sterilize all male infants... I had no idea you were a fascist.
       
       How about people engage in sex when they are engaged in a marriage to someone they want to have a child with?

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   17. 72

       Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Leslie, that's an interesting point. I wonder how men would react to every woman on the planet abstaining from sex. We'd probably see just as many abortions but as a result of rape instead of just an oopsie. Sounds great!

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       Link10103posted 8 years agoin reply to this

       It's surprising how many people still hold the viewpoint "No sex before marriage", and then wonder why unwanted pregnancies are so prevalent...

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       Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Travis, what about a married couple who don't want children?  Are they still not allowed to have sex?

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   20. 79

       lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Hmm, forcibly sterilizing males is fascist....forcing females to give birth is "godly"...I can clearly see the problem here. Like said, it's 2016. My daughter is not a brood-mare. And if you want zero abortion, my way is best. But that's not it,isit?

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   21. 58

       Link10103posted 8 years agoin reply to this

       If its between circumcision and sterilization, If given the choice I would have gone with the one that's reversible and actually has some common sense behind it...

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   22. 79

       lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Well yes, that's what I said. Vasectomy. Travis turned it into forced sterilization to demonizing my words. They're good at that here. Careful, soon you'll be told you enjoy killing babies. They really stop at nothing.

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   23. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       They can do whatever they want so long as it doesn't involve murdering their children.
       
       Neither is your daughter a rutting animal in heat. Why is there such a big problem with impulse control? No sex = no baby. It's that easy.

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   24. 58

       Link10103posted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Impulse control isn't much of a problem, provided you bother to actually educate people.
       
       If someone goes the stupid route and just says "No sex", how anyone is surprised they not only had sex but got pregnant/contracted an STD is beyond me.

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   25. 79

       lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Hmm, try this: my body, my decision. My private life, not your business. Or do we amend the constitution to allow your religion into my bedroom? How about my career? How I raise my kids? Does separation mean nothing? Founding dads thought so. So do I

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   26. 72

       Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       They can do whatever they want until they do something that doesn't fit with your views and then you want to take away their choices. Very kind of you.

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   27. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Murdering your children isn't a "private choice" though. I'm sorry if you think it is. This isn't a "religious position" it's a nonmurder one. Secularist pro-lifers.
       
       I tend to draw the line at murder. Where do you draw the line?

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   28. 72

       Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       But it's not an undebatable stance. You have to understand that not everyone considers terminating a pregnancy to be murder. You're free to hold that opinion but you're not free to impose it on everyone else.

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   29. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       And you are imposing your view on everyone else. Let's say that there is a 10% chance I am right. Would you take a 10% chance of murdering your child?

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   30. 72

       Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       How am I imposing my view? I'm not forcing people to have abortions. I actually would never have an abortion myself, I wouldn't feel comfortable with it. But that's me. I've no interest in saying everyone else should feel the same way.

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   31. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       If the official position is that you can have an abortion, then the official position is that abortion isn't murder and the fetus is not a person.
       
       If you're wrong and the fetus is, you are guilty of advocating mass murder, right?

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   32. 72

       Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Sure, whatever. If someday it's somehow proven that a fetus can be considered a conscious, viable being from conception then you go right ahead and say I advocated mass murder. Until then, I'll defend a woman's right to make choices for herself.

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   33. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Personhood is not contingent upon consciousness or viability. You agree that you are imposing your views by arguing for an official position that permits abortion? Great.

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   34. 72

       Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       No, I'm not, because my view doesn't force anyone to do anything they don't want to do. Don't believe in having an abortion? Don't have one!

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   35. 75

       Besarienposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Travis, if you disagree with abortion,  choose not to get an abortion. See how easy that was!

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   36. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       By that logic slaveholders so were not imposing their view either. "Don't want slaves? Don't want slavery? Don't own one!"

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   37. 72

       Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Once you prove indisputably that an embryo or a zygote or a fetus is a person then I'll admit that my position is imposing upon them, okay?

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   38. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Whether or not a view is being "imposed" is not contingent upon that views being correct or incorrect. What are your criterion for determining personhood?

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   39. 72

       Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       It does matter in this situation because if a fetus isn't a person then how can I impose on them?
       
       I have no concrete,indisputable answer just as you don't. I think viability is a fair gauge as it weighs both a woman&fetus' rights to some extent

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   40. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Views can be imposed regardless of whether they are right or wrong. I do have a criterion. Does a fetus in Nigeria suddenly become a person by being viable in the U.S.? Does flying back to Nigeria take away that personhood?

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   41. 79

       lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       What laws? When life begins, when you have the right to impose them on me? There already laws. It's called nature. Women birth, no man made laws necessary.

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   42. 72

       Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       No. I agree with no abortions after ~20 weeks. When no fetus anywhere in the world is going to survive if born.

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   43. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Hypothetical artificial wombs make every fetus viable though. Personhood in your eyes is contingent upon technology.

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   44. 79

       lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       That's fine for you.....but still, things happen that cannot be expected. I say leave it up to the woman. Trust her to do what's right. How in the world is this not the norm? Partial birth is necessary. Women die.

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   45. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       "Let the woman decide if she will kill her children."
       
       "A fetus is only a person if I feel like it is..."
       
       You aren't exactly the paragon of rational argumentation are you?

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   46. 72

       Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       No, I've already said I don't have an exact point of 'personhood'. I don't think a fetus is a person from conception, I think it happens sometime btwn then & viability. W/o knowing exactly when I think it needs to be weighed w/ a woman's rights t

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   47. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Why is the fertilized embryo not a person? Does a woman have a right to kill her children?

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   48. 72

       Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Why is every single egg that a woman has in her body not a person?
       
       For the billionth time, not everyone sees terminating a pregnancy as killing a child. She has the right to decide for herself until someone else can prove when personhood begins.

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   49. 79

       lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       I've given birth 3 times, and I can't explain it. How bout yourself? I know...why don't you explain it to me! Explain the working of the universe. Explain to me the mystery of creation. I'll wait.Meanwhile, I'll trust my experience over your beliefs.

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   50. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Because a fertilized egg has the unique DNA of a person, while an unfertilized egg does not. "We don't know if it's murder, but go ahead anyway." Is that really your position?

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   51. 72

       Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       My stance is that a woman has rights in this situation and clearly yours is that she does not. On that point we will never agree.

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   52. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Her rights do no supersede those of her child insofar as abortion is concerned. No thoughts on why a fertilized egg is not a person?
       
       @les
       
       Another anecdotal fallacy. You're just a walking catalogue aren't you?

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   53. 79

       lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Sperm has unique DNA. Shall we prevent masturbation? The nuns used to say it made you go blind.i know- let's control every waking moment of every person's life so no one offends your views on what constitutes life.You don't like masturbation?yadayada

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   54. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Les, does sperm contain the complete DNA of a unique human being? No. Only a fertilized egg does. Why don't you come back when you have a non-emotional criterion for personhood?

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   55. 72

       Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       In no stretch of my imagination is a fertilized egg as much of a person as a woman whose personhood is debated by literally no one.

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   56. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       So a fertilized egg can't be vested with personhood because you can't imagine that being so? Fallacy of argument from incredulity. Still waiting on a salient reason.

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   57. 79

       lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       I thought we covered that already. An egg becomes a person when the woman says it does. That is the way of this world. That's how the Creator made it. No amount of arguing will change it. I accept my role in nature. You have no say. Sorry to burst it

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   58. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Lol, then a 2 year old child isn't a person unless the mother says that she is. You're just repeating yourself now. If you have no salient criterion for personhood then you have no basis for participation in this discussion.

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   59. 72

       Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       I think personhood is far more complicated than simply being a collection of DNA, which is why determining the exact point of "becoming a person" is so difficult.

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   60. 79

       lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Lol! A woman has no basis to be in a discussion about birthing babies and life. Whatsa matter, travvy? Jealous?

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   61. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Can you give me a salient reason that you object to that criterion though? You told me personhood depended on technology a moment ago-
       
       @Les
       
       I'm just curious, are your children not persons if you "feel" that they are not?

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       lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Oh oh course travvy.i wake up everyday and  see if I feel my kids are people. Makes it hard when they ask for food, cause you know, why do things need food? When they were in my belly, I just "knew" when it was real. Still waiting 4 u to explain it.

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   63. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       You said that personhood is conferred by fiat of the mother. Stands to reason if you can give it you can take it away. See how absurd your position is? I think that even Aime can see that your position is ridiculous. Still no salient criterion I see.

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       lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Oh I see, so YOURE going to give it or take it away, huh? Yeah that makes sense in travvy land, not the real world.The life or lack of which is in my private life is absolutely none of your business.The buck stops there.End war,if you care about life

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   65. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Truth is that it isn't up for anyone to decide by fiat. Science tells us that at conception we have the creation of unique individualized DNA. I kinda like it when you call me pet-names Lezzie- what are you single, divorced, widowed, married?

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   66. 79

       lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Really? That's what every Republican elected since 2010 has done. The men in robes and monkey suits have decreed that women do not have the right to self determination. Treat them with derision. Kind of like you have treated me. Surely u expect same?

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   67. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       If by "self-determination" you mean murder your own children- then absolutely. Common' Lezzles- you don't like it when I want to talk about you? Who is Chris? Husband? Brother? Son?
       
       Your failure to make sense is impacting our relationship.

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   68. 79

       lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       We don't have a relationship travvy. We don't even reside on same plane. And I've had run ins w your type way too often around here. It's unbelievable to me this Ignorance still lives. Separate America!

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       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       That's just like you to deny it in public. You mean you still haven't told Chris about us?
       
       I'm not sure how much longer I can put up with your emotional abuse. You said last time that you'd work on it but I can see through that lipservice now.

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   70. 79

       lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Oh trav, trav....u know you'd never stoop to embarrass yourself w someone like me. One who believes in the laws of nature, has respect for women, and believes in them. Further, someone who's actually experienced what you pretend to know about! Oh no.

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   71. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       You're right, I don't touch crazy.
       
       I'll tell you what, you learn how to string syllogisms together and then come back with a criterion for personhood that isn't "feeling" based- and we can have an adult conversation.

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       lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Nah, you get pregnant, give birth, and then we'll talk. Soooo looks like that'll be never. But I'm sure u won't miss it. It's just so beneath you.

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       Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Sorry to interrupt such a lovely moment...
       
       Travis, I've already said I don't think there's 1 moment/event that makes a person. It's something more than a cluster of cells but happens before birth (imo). But ppl have their own ideas and I let them.

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   74. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Then I don't think you have a very good idea of what personhood entails if you don't know what the criterion for personhood is. Maybe you think that personhood is conferred when someone "feels like it"? waiting for any reason why you disagree w/ me

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       Link10103posted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Just out of curiosity, Travis have you laid out your criteria for personhood and why they are non negotiable?
       
       So far Ive only seen you accuse anyone who poses arguments for being pro-choice as murderers/advocates of murder. Alot to read here though.

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   76. 72

       Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Unique DNA is the start but a cluster of cells is not a person on its own. It has never had consciousness, agency, thought, or perception.

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   77. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       The existence of unique DNA is the only non-arbitrary criterion. We've seen some howlers. Personhood is technology, contingent on feeling...
       
       Unconscious people don't have personhood? It's not murder if they're asleep or recovering out of a coma?

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   78. 72

       Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Do you vehemently oppose the killing of all animals and insects and plants and every single living organism on the planet with unique DNA? If that's all that's required for personhood then I hope you've never stepped on an ant. Because murder.

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   79. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       The criterion for establishing human personhood is unique human DNA.
       
       Do you agree that people who are asleep have less personhood then those who are awake?

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   80. 72

       Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       No. There's a difference between sleeping and not having yet developed the ability to be conscious.
       
       Why is human personhood so much more important and valuable than ant personhood?

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   81. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       You said personhood depends on consciousness. Not conscious equals not a person then according to you then, right?
       
       Ants and other animals by virtue of their being animals do not share the same moral status and rights conferred to human persons.

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   82. 72

       Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       There's a difference between not yet having developed consciousness and being in an altered state of consciousness.
       
       Humans are animals. Is a zygote more capable of any of the things that make humans 'special' than an insect is?

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   83. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       A six week old infant is less able to mentally function than an adult- does that mean that the fetus has less personhood? Do conscious animals have the same rights as humans?
       
       The zygote by its DNA is something completely different than the insect

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   84. 72

       Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       It's not about being less able to function, it's about being able to function at all. 
       
       You're making a distinction based on human vs not human, so think about what makes a human more valuable. Does a zygote possess those qualities?

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   85. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Consciousness is a sliding scale sugar. You're telling me that "level of development" is your criterion- which is ultimately self defeating.
       
       To be human is to be intrinsically valuable. No answer on the animal question?

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   86. 72

       Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       I'm the one saying there's more to being a person than DNA & it's that little extra somethin' that sets us apart from other animals. A fertilized egg does not have it yet.
       
       I'll pretend the 'sugar' was cuz you like me so much & not condescen

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   87. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Couldn't resist alliteration. Your language alludes to moral and mental life, but as a criterion for personhood you must point at the creation of unique blueprints, not any arbitrarily selected stage of progress along that development.

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       lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       You are wrong. It most def goes in stages  and any woman whose been pregnant knows it. That's why Christians women can abort, because they know it's just a collection of cells. Unique? Yeah OK, but certainly not a baby.You are arguing from guesswork.

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   89. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       But any stage of development selected is going to be arbitrary. Did you decide your kids are still persons this morning or did you abort them with a kitchen knife in their sleep? Who is saying that the embryo is a baby? No. Person? Yes.

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   90. 79

       lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Person, no! Let me ask you. When you eat your scrambled eggs, do you say "I just ate a chicken"? Or do you know it's not a chicken? But it is a fertilized egg. Same thing. To thinking individuals, not reactionaries. Common sense. Not religion.

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   91. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Wouldn't you tell us that it was a chicken if you "feel" like it was a chicken? Is the egg a distinct living being from the hen? Yes. http://shamelesspopery.com/the-chicken- … -abortion/

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   92. 75

       Besarienposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Are you going to care for kids who are already here? Do you want to pay more taxes to support free public education, support for unwed mothers, free child care, free all inclusive medical care for children and pregnant/recovering women?

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   93. 61

       Pollyannalanaposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Catherine, God said He knew Jeremiah before he was born so that blows your soul theory, doesn't it and Eric, I do not know what bible you study from if indeed you do and if you are a pastor you should read the rules for that. All my best.

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   94. 78

       Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       That only brings up another can of worms. I no more believe that the bible is 'the word' of god; than I believe you have the right to force your harmful, narrow-minded and divisive views onto me. Expand your brain, and one more time - READ the ???

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3. 0

   SusieQ42posted 8 years ago

   There are millions of babies who had no right to speak out and say, "I want to live!"  I prefer adoption to abortion since so many great couples are waiting for a baby to adopt.  Abortion not only ends a baby's life but the women who've had abortions suffer from emotional problems all of their lives.  A mother and her baby's heart strings are attached.  I know women who have had abortions over the years who suffer from chronic depression.  I just don't think abortion is the answer.  Why not put the baby up for adoption instead?  At least then mom is innocent and has no blood on her hands.

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   1. 78

      Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      The woman has emotional scars because Christians insist that she has done something wrong and make her feel guilty. That religion runs on guilt, it is such a crying shame. But, WHY do Christan women who believe like you CHOOSE abortion? That is the ?

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      Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      There are nearly 400,000 kids in foster care already in the US alone, how about we work on giving those kids a home first, eh?

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      Ericdierkerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Quakers (American Friends Service Committee); Lutheran Church in America; Presbyterian Church; Reorganized LDS; Unitarian Universalist; United Church of Christ; United Methodist Church; the Episcopal Church; the Christian Church and more

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      SusieQ42posted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I disagree Catherine.  Christians don't make her feel guilty.    If a woman feels guilty it's because she killed her baby.

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      lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      My daughter lost 2 fetus to ectopic pregnancy. She did not abort, god did. Is god a murderer? Obviously so. Or is god just stupid for giving woman child birthing abilities?

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   6. 78

      Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Leslie, I lost a set of twins in a miscarriage - and you're right. Should we be angry at 'God' for 'murdering' our babies? That is a very good point. I bet Christians have a perfectly logical explanation for it. I, for one, can't wait to hear it.

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      lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Sorry to hear that Catherine. My daughter had a hard time w it. Life is not for the faint of heart. And Christians really have no answer for anything. They can only be responsible for themselves, and lead by example. Actions, not words.

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   8. 78

      Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Thanks. I had a hard time, too - was depressed for months, despite my views. Abortion is often a hard choice because it is made to end a SWEET yet overwhelming life commitment before it begins. But, that is the choice many make for holy wrong reasons

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   9. 79

      lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I don't ever think it's a wrong reason. It's her life. No one else has to live it, why does anyone think they have the right to tell her anything?? It's egotistical GALL. I'll fight anyone on this issue, Pope himself! Snip the peepee if care so much!

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   10. 78

       Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       You missed my point because there is only so much room. I meant that Most Christan women choose abortion for the 'wrong holy reasons' - guilt, shame, rejection, etc. 'Regular' women make the choice for themselves without as much pressurized judgement

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   11. 79

       lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Oh yes.That's even sadder.I hate that so many women go through life with their head down.This is flipping 2016. I cannot BELIEVE we are still fighting this fight.It's medieval.Meanwhile, it's become normal for men to take a pill so they can have sex!

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   12. 78

       Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       No one has responded to this part of the question... Is 'God' a murder when a woman miscarries a baby? Should we be angry with the Almighty when this happens? Some people believe this sometimes happens because the BABY is making a choice...

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   13. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Define murder and then answer me whether or not people have rights claims on God. Welcome to living in a fallen world.

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   14. 79

       lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Nice dodge. I'll bet hundreds of people starved to death this day. Some of disease. Many through war. Freezing to death in Gaza--with your help. Yet, you focus on fetus in the womb.....odd that.

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   15. 78

       Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Yes, welcome to living in a fallen world where we don't all believe like you. Answer the question straighforward and honestly without trying to incite a riot - or I will start deleting more of them.

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4. 0

   LoliHeyposted 8 years ago

   Just because one says they are affiliated with a faith does not mean they are genuine.  Lot's of people profess to be Catholic but never go to church or pray or even open a bible.  Abortion is used because women who have sex (often unwed) and don't want to be inconvenienced by having a child.  So they take the easy way out so they can party on as usual.  Others may have other reasons, like the baby won't make it to birth anyway, or is horribly disfigured.  But then again, it's not their place to decide who lives and who dies--that is for God only.  There's always adoption!
   
   And yeah, if you condone killing a developing baby, it being brutally murdered before it even has a chance to live, then yes, you are heartless in that aspect.

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      lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I say bombing it to death, burning it with white phosphorus disfiguring it with depleted uranium is heartless.And by it, I mean a real living breathing thinking human, not a fetus being formed. Women have rights-your approval not necessary, nor asked

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   2. 78

      Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Women who claim a faith are genuing enough to answer the question specifically. You have obviously been taught this moral judgement well.  No one here condones killing a developing baby - NO ONE.

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   3. 0

      LoliHeyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Women have rights--but so do the unborn.  We are not talking about bombing, so don't go there.  Stay on topic.  Keep telling yourself that a fetus is not a baby.

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   4. 79

      lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      And keep telling yourself that a woman is nothing more than an incubator, whose own life is not considered in the equation.

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   5. 69

      Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Who is trying to depersonalize women into being "incubators"? It seems to me that you're trying to dehumanize the unborn so as to make murder seem like something other than murder.

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   6. 79

      lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Now your getting it! Removing a fetus is not murder. Freezing a child to death for lack of electricity is.

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   7. 69

      Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      If the fetus is a person then it is murder. No way around it.

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   8. 79

      lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Who says it's a person?

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   9. 69

      Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      What are your criterion for determining personhood? The reasonable non-arbitrary criterion point to conception.

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   10. 79

       lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       I know it when I feel it. And it takes a while. Just ask women have done all thru out time....you should be asking when did abortion become a crime? Because god does it all the time. So how bad can it be? Really. Use some sense, not wild ideology.

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   11. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       So if you don't "feel" like your 2 year old child is a person then she isn't? Let's try to actually establish a criterion rather than relying on emotion.

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   12. 79

       lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       It's not emotion, it's nature. I've had 3 pregnancies. I just knew. And I would love to know why god abortion(nature) is accepted, but woman doing it is a crime. Female cats let born kittens die if they not right.Males stay out of it. Learn something

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   13. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Fallacy of appeal to nature. Anecdotal fallacy. You can't give me a solid criterion for personhood upon which the law should be based?

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   14. 79

       lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Abortion is a natural occurrence. It happens all the time, with or without the intervention of man. The fallacy IS bringing your laws into it. It's a private matter, not an exercise in crime and punishment. When do we make war illegal? I'd be for it!

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   15. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-nature

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   16. 78

       Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       You're right, Travis - just because something is 'natural' doesn't necessarily mean that it is good. Pro-choice folks do not believe that abortion is murder. The fallicy is you forcing your beliefs onto us via a law designed to impose those beliefs.

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   17. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Glad to hear you agree. But you're pretending that you aren't forcing your view either. If the official position is that abortion is legal, then the official position is that the fetus isn't a person. You're advocating your view too.

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   18. 78

       Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Yes, and you'll notice why I am within my question: shrill, hysterical Christians accusing me of murdering babies - and wanting an OLD, needed law changed - while their religion contributes to the most 'baby deaths'. Fix Christianity: less abortions

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   19. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       So you admit that you're forcing your view too, fantastic. I already pointed out that the problem is nominal adherence to Christianity- rather than Christianity itself.
       
       I'm still waiting on your criterion for personhood...

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   20. 78

       Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       I don't need criteria for 'personhood'. I simply do not believe that the soul of an unborn baby enters the body until after 3 months - sometimes long after. Many people believe something similar. Your belief should not supercede laws for choice.

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   21. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       then you don't know what a person is. 3 months is an arbitrary criterion. Why not 5 years after birth? Your belief should not supersede basic human rights. "Don't believe that slavery is moral? Don't own slaves then" that's the logic of your argument

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   22. 78

       Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       To a certain extent that is true. There are still parts of the world that have slaves and I can't do anything about it. The US fought a civil war over that issue with the Christian ideal that slavery was ordained by god on the frontlines. They lost.

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   23. 72

       Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Travis, do you think a 13 year old girl who has been brutally raped should have to carry a child to term?

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   24. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Lol, as if abolitionism wasn't motivated by Christianity. Still arbitrary criterion. Still forcing your view.
       
       Is it the baby's fault that they were conceived under those circumstances? I'd be willing to concede abortion for rape for now

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   25. 78

       Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Nope. I am done talking to you, Travis. YOU are EXACTLY the type of person that I wrote this post for. I know many good Christians; and most don't realize the affects their unbalanced views have on others - and can change. People like you are stone.

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   26. 69

       Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       says the woman who supports killing children if it's convenient to the parents and can't even come up with a criterion for personhood.
       
       History will remember you as an advocate for mass murder. I'm sorry.

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   27. 79

       lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Choice is choice. We all live by and answer for our choices. It's odd that you can't live with that. Because you should look on my twitter feed. All the death going on in Yemen, Syria, Palestine. But thing that concerns you is women! Jealous? Or what

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5. 52

   Kathleen Callahanposted 8 years ago

   Being affiliated with a religion does not mean that a person has a personal relationship with God.
   In our society, children are not taught to have integrity, which to me means living according to one's conscience. Rather, people are given the impression that everything is relative, including right and wrong.
   If we do not value human life, then what do we value?

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   1. 79

      lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Well in this day and age, people value a fertilized egg,, and could care less for the already born. Poverty, war, indifference, hatred, intolerance...all done in the name of god.

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   2. 78

      Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      1st set of statistics in the question is all women who consider themselves to be affiliated with a religion; the 2nd set is women who actively attend church - yes, there is a difference. So, only a few 'devout' Christians should make laws for us all?

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   3. 79

      lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      No way. Their brand of do what we say not what we do is defaming the name of their god. They never practice what they preach. Only like telling others what to do. Pay taxes,  then spout orders!

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   4. 69

      Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Sin is sin, regardless of who commits it. We are all sinners. That's not an excuse for sin, but the reality of it.

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   5. 78

      Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Another good point. Fix your religion - THEN you can start on the rest of the world. Because your definition of 'sin' and my definition do not agree - not even sort of. IE: *I* consider people like you to be 'evil' - if there is such a thing.

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   6. 69

      Travis Wakemanposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Here's a thought: Maybe it's some of the adherents and not the thing that they are supposed to adhere to... The mass murder advocate calling the person against mass-murder "evil" is the cherry on top of this hypocrisy sundae.

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   7. 78

      Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I've been through this situation with my friends - too many of them. I'm not evil. You are evil for your harmful dogma and not listening to the truth I am trying to get across to you about WHY Christians choose abortion so often. It's heartbreaking.

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   8. 79

      lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, its awful the place religion puts women in. Always subjugated. Always lesser than. Oh sure--they love their mommas, but ONLY as momma. What about before they were momma? What about their soul-desires-dreams? Caretaker and help-meet is role.OBEY.

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6. 0

   savvydatingposted 8 years ago

   Obviously, given that atheists comprise about 5% of the population and everyone else has probably attended a church while growing up, and consequently counts that particular religion as an "affiliation," it would make sense that less atheists are getting abortions than everyone else for the sheer reason that there are less atheists in the U.S. than there are people who are "affiliated" with a religion, whether they are religious or not---and many of them are not.
   As for the thing of hiding a pregnancy out of shame, that isn't accurate at all. This isn't the 1950's.  The majority of women get abortions because it is convenient and they don't want a baby right now. Shame of sin probably happens 1% of the time, if even that. The "shame" idea is something that atheist prefer to believe, but which has no merit as an argument, since that reason is actually quite rare.
   As for pro-life individuals, it is there right to believe in the sanctity of life just as it is your right to believe whatever you believe.

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   1. 79

      lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Sure, but they are making laws that force us to go by their beliefs, too. 231 of them since 2010. Keep your beliefs in church and home, not government!

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   2. 0

      savvydatingposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      What laws and where? Abortion is legal, although some states do not allow for partial birth abortion, a practice which most M.D.'s wil not perform anyway, for a variety of reasons.

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   3. 58

      Link10103posted 8 years agoin reply to this

      ...so if you're daughter got pregnant before marriage by a guy she doesn't love, it wouldn't bother you at all? And you can confirm that all other religious households wouldn't be bothered if it happened to them?
      
      Gonna call BS ahead of time...

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   4. 46

      Ericdierkerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      What does 231 mean exactly? There are 50 states and some territories. Are you suggesting that legislatures enacted roughly 4.7 laws per state about abortions.

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   5. 79

      lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I'm on phone, can't copy, but just google "abortion restrictions since 2010". It actually started in 2000. Operation Rescue told Bush he owed them for putting him in office. Religious right not above bribery. Elected Bush, removed Howard Stern.

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   6. 46

      Ericdierkerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      They sure do not list them, they just make a claim to further their agenda -- Guttmacher Institute
      Women's rights Organization
      The writing on this does not delineate. One would need formal legislative analysis training to make sense of it.

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   7. 0

      savvydatingposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Guttmacher states: "The reasons most frequently cited were that having a child would interfere with a woman's education, work or ability to care for dependents (74%); that she could not afford a baby (73%); that she did not want to be a single mother

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   8. 79

      lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Read the vanishing abortion clinic, Bloomberg. And savvy, please tell me why this medical procedure a woman wants is any of your business? Its been deemed a right under the constitution, and we used to be protected under 4th amendment.not youbusiness

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   9. 0

      savvydatingposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Eric, these are the current laws: http://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/s … ib_OAL.pdf
      Leslie, are you saying that abortion is none of my business? What an odd thing to say. Also, I don't recall making any judgments. I've simply stated some facts

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   10. 79

       lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       That's exactly what I'm saying. It's not your business unless you want one, and then good luck getting one, depending on where you live. It's a medical procedure, wholly between woman and doctor. No church allowed.

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   11. 0

       savvydatingposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       It is the business of nations, actually. You act like you're trying to get an abortion right now and you can't find a clinic. Just look at China---13 million abortions per year has backfired, and now they're having serious financial problems.

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   12. 79

       lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       You forget they forced people to have abortions.1 child rule policy.Some people here want to force women to give birth.  2 sides of same coin.And China had economic reasons for it.Here, it's ideology. We are multi-nation/religion.Must be secular gvt.

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   13. 0

       savvydatingposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       China's economic problems are the result of the abortions. Not enough young people to work and to create new innovations. No nation should become blasé about abortion & no one is forcing women not to have abortions in this country.

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   14. 72

       Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Hahaha. Have this baby you don't want so that someday they can be innovative and stimulate our economy. Brilliant. Can't say I've ever heard that one before.

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   15. 46

       Ericdierkerposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Sorry nice lady. I was born after my my mom came to my Dad (a doctor) for an abortion. I ain't perfect but I have four perfect children. Yes breathing life into this world is a wonderful thing. And being adopted I can attest to it.

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   16. 78

       Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       savvydating, as a woman, HOW can you be so out-of-touch and comprised of 'wishful thinking'? 'Affiliated' religious women include teens and single daughters of Christan fanatics - they are not so far removed from you and are in your sights every day.

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   17. 61

       Pollyannalanaposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Woman can't control their bodies then yes they should have to give birth if it does not endanger their lives. There are waiting lists wanting these precious little babies. They deserve that...at least.

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   18. 78

       Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Again, REread the question... This is not the same debate about abortion that we've always had. The question is NOT whether abortion should be legal or illegal. It is WHY do so many women who believe life happens at conception chose abortion?

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   19. 0

       savvydatingposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Catherine, I have simply stated some plain facts here. If you take issue with facts, that is your perogative. If you want to target Christians, that is also your choice. If I see that someone has construed the truth, I'll correct it.

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   20. 58

       Link10103posted 8 years agoin reply to this

       So again.
       
       Savvy, if your daughter got pregnant before marriage by a guy she doesn't love, would you be bothered by it?
       
       If you aren't, can you confirm all other religious households would not be bothered by it either and therefore say shame is rare?

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   21. 79

       lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Facts? No one is pushing women to have abortions in this country. Yes, you are right. They are trying to force women to give birth against their will. That is what I'm fighting. Self-preservation in the face of religious dogma and rule.

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   22. 0

       LoliHeyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Link, that is why people should wait for marriage to have sex.  Yes, you should be forced to give birth.  You had sex, now take responsibility.

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   23. 58

       Link10103posted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Though that would also apply to rape victims, which may constitute as victim blaming (to pregnant children as well), that isn't the question i asked...

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   24. 0

       savvydatingposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Aime, abortion is no laughing matter. I'm sorry you find it so funny. China's financial problems are the result of their 1-child policy.
       http://www.economist.com/node/18651512

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   25. 72

       Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       What if the married couple doesn't want kids? Signing a piece of paper doesn't make one capable of caring for an unwanted child, not to mention it's easy enough to get a divorce these days, it's no guarantee that both parents step up/stick around.

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   26. 0

       LoliHeyposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Link, there's something called adoption.  Aime, if a couple does not want kids, they need to use birth control.

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   27. 72

       Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       savvy-China set a limit on # of children. That's not happening here. Different situation altogether & I'm not laughing at abortion, I'm laughing at the notion that ppl should be forced to have kids "for the nation"
       
       Loli- bc isn't 100% effective

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   28. 58

       Link10103posted 8 years agoin reply to this

       So women, as well as children, who are raped and impregnated should be forced to have the baby because that's the responsible thing to do for having sex?
       
       It's difficult to wrap my mind around that actual women are advocating this...its usually men.

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   29. 78

       Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Savvy, you didn't state 'facts' you stated your erroneous perception - and that is SO wrong and harmful for you to do. Your attitude combined with shame is one of the reasons why Christian girls HIDE this 'sin' in the first place. Wake up!!

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   30. 61

       Pollyannalanaposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Our soul teaches us when we are doing wrong that is why there is shame which is a good thing because after awhile many (like many here) block this out just like people with no conscience,cold hearted, whatever you call it. Some call it rights.

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   31. 78

       Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Yes, that is part of this question, aside from why Christian women use abortion the most - why do Christians feel such a need to judge when Jesus commanded you NOT to do so? Who do you think you are calling me cold-hearted and without conscience?!!

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   32. 0

       savvydatingposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       I stated facts. Period. The issue here is that some want to defend the destruction of a fetus and blame it on the 95% of the population who might be affiliated with a religion, as if that makes the other 5% more righteous for aborting their babies.

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   33. 79

       lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       That is not the issue at all. The issue is Christians trying to tell me what to do in my private life, against the Constitution, liberty and just plain respect. You have every right to your beliefs, you have zero right to force them on me. Simple.

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   34. 78

       Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       savvy, I think you are confused. Opinions are not facts. I gave a source for real statistics - where are you getting your 'facts' from? Read this and tell me that this stuff does not happen in your church. http://hub.me/ak9PR

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7. 61

   Pollyannalanaposted 8 years ago

   First of all most Americans are Christian so that might explain that if what you say is true. Why, is because the government encourages and pays for it in most cases and then there is the ones waiting to buy baby body parts that keep it going too. Why do these clinics not have classes discouraging abortion? Strange isn't it? Most Americans are against abortion but are still forced to fund it and I hope the next administration will completely separate birth control and health issues for women instead of tying it all together to get what they want out of it. Surely they look to profit and have no compassion for these women or they would warn them of all the consequences emotionally and physically of pulling life from a womb and destroying it.

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   1. 78

      Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      The government does not  'encourage' people to have abortions; and most Americans are NOT against it. You've been listening to someone; and you need to be thinking for yourself. Try rereading the question, answers and responses again - and listen.

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   2. 58

      Link10103posted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Oh yes, can't go a day without buying me some baby parts. Completely not for medical research that only researchers are allowed to buy, I just buy them for the giggles thanks to the abortions the gov isnt allowed to fund.
      
      Saitire is useles isnt it..

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   3. 88

      Virginia Allainposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Actually, the number of Americans who identify themselves as being neutral or not-religious is growing. I imagine that trend (documented by the Pew Foundation) comes from people turned off by the hateful stances of the rabidly religious right.

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8. 67

   Terrexposted 8 years ago

   Where did you get those statistics from, Catherine Mostly?

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   1. 78

      Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      I tell you where I got them within the question - and you can do a search. This question is ALSO based on the experiences I have had with my Christian friends. I wish people would STOP dismissing that part because that is the MOST IMPORTANT part.

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9. 87

   ian 12amposted 8 years ago

   Abortion is not just a thing for American christian women. It seems to be part of society all over the world. Except in a few  cases of rape, I have never understood why some one would get pregnant, and then decide to terminate it. The means by which one gets pregnant is known to all women. In fact there are numerous ways to prevent unwanted pregnancies, including the emergency contraceptive.   So how does a pregnancy skip all these measures and end up in a situation that requires abortion? I think women have to do a little bit more in order to bring down cases of abortion, because it can be a life altering experience.

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   1. 72

      Aime Fposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      While I agree that everyone should be using birth control, it's not 100% effective. I've known multiple women who got preg using BC. They don't take emerg contraception b/c they don't know when theirs hasn't worked. Will always happen to some.

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   2. 79

      lovemychrisposted 8 years agoin reply to this

      Guess who also knows how to get pregnant?Men.Guess who usually wants the sex,even if by force?Men.Guess who can have foolproof way of ending abortions?Men.Vasectomies as birth control.100% effective.Do it NOW.IF that's what this is about,wich it isnt

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10. 82

    GlendaGoodWitchposted 8 years ago

    Pathetically asked question. Seems like you are watching a lot of anti Christian propaganda. I don't know Christians who act as you and some of the people responding here are saying. Muslims are anti abortion too, but, I noticed that you are not upset with the fact that not only do they think that you are heartless, but, they think that you are worthless.
    
    I have NEVER heard a Christian say that anyone who murders an unborn child is "heartless". I do here them saying that its wrong, which, if you put propaganda aside and admit the truth, killing a baby is wrong. We really need more people who are willing to take responsibility for their actions instead of, as you have done,  get mad at people who point out what is wrong with it. I don't care that you are sick of being reminded of the wrong-doing of murdering, I guess I care about the victims who cannot answer back, "well, I am sick of being killed before I get a chance."

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    1. 78

       Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Heartless & worse. This question is VALID and based on EXPERIENCE with Christian peers and statistics. It is scary how small-minded and assuming so many of you are. What a crying shame that so many girls have to live with such ignorance and misog

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    2. 61

       Pollyannalanaposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       What is a shame is so many kids having parents or teachers like you instead of bringing them up with morals and conscience. Parents who misbehave in front of their kids and show no good examples but have them having sex before they even become teens.

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    3. 78

       Misfit Chickposted 8 years agoin reply to this

       Based on the topic of this question, you would be referring to Christian parents raising their kids without morals or conscience? Every one of my Christian friends who chose abortion LIVED a full Christian life with their devoted parents.

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11. 0

    JG Hemlockposted 8 years ago

    This is a very simple question. They are not really Christian. One does not murder an innocent child in the womb, the very womb that God has placed that child in. They do not know who God and they use this as a 'label' but this has nothing to do with God. You can stand in the garage all day long and call yourself a car. It doesn't ever make you a car...not even a matchbox.

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12. 53

    celafoeposted 7 years ago

    because what is called christian today is not what it is in scripture.   Today  it means a "church" member.    But it was originally a name for disciples of Christ.   A disciple of Christ says and does ALL Christ says to do because he believes Jesus is God's leader.     Church christians do what the man/men leading them believes so there are very few true disciples of Christ because the people have been taught to follow these apostate men.    ask the average church member what their religion is they will say i am a baptist or lutheran or the name of their particular "church"   
    Jesus says if your love for me is not so much greater than that for ANYTHING OR ANYONE else that your love for the other looks more like hate, then YOU CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE.    The "church" system has destroyed what was Christianity and turned it into christianity, a work of man with out the influence of God.
    Only those that have cast aside the teachings of men and have learned TRUTH from the Holy Spirit of God who was sent to bring us All truth and follow Christ  the Son of God, who is the Lord of this final age of man, have remained true to His description of what a disciple of Christ must be.     Wake up people, repent,  be born again. be baptizes in water, in the Holy Spirit, and follow Him only as led by the Holy Spirit.
    John 3:5-8   Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.  6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.  7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

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       Misfit Chickposted 7 years agoin reply to this

       From 'Nicodemus Comes to Jesus in the Night' (1/4 way down) thru next 12 headings in my 1st spotlight article, the harmful view of the pagan church's 'salvation' concept within Christianity is debunked. Reason for God's pagan 'bridge' toward end.

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