You have the free will to do anyth you like. You can sin, whore, steal, kill, cheat - whatever you like... I do not think that religious organizations makes you feel guilty of doing these things. It's a matter of who you are made of and what "kind of conscience" you are having. You are human, and everyone is born with conscience. Anything that is against the law makes your conscience feel guilty when you go against it. And these laws are place so we can have control on those evil things.
Personally, churches holds no control on you, but you do hold control on yourself. If your conscience is getting you the feeling of guiltiness, why would you go against it then? It's rather plain and stupid. Fact is, you already know what is right and wrong, and churches has nothing to do with your guilt feeling.
Just my two cents.
You're RIGHT! We're "programmed" by "laws of the land" (society) and/or parent's perception thereof which "begins" formulation of our "opinion of guilt!" Then adulthood exps "reforms opinions" creating our consciences' "perception" of "GUILT!"Rm8:1
People experience guilt long before adulthood within Christianity and that is one of the biggest problems with it. It lies to people, telling them to believe that they are 'unworthy sinners' instead of the truth of our reality cuz sheep don't need it
Who "taught" u they "blv 'unworthy sinners?' That's A LIE! RELIGION may have but not WORD! Have u READ Rm8:1;Eph2:8-9 (NO WORKS); Rm11:6 (NO WORKS); Jn 14:26;16:13 (HOLY SPIRIT WORKS)! We're RIGHTEOUS "BY FAITH" (Rm3:22;5:1-11)! What r u talking?
We are talking about religion, Norine. Most people don't have excuses worked out in scripture for every little thing like you do. And yes, 'unworthy sinners' is how you are taught you are born, isn't it? You have to BELIEVE that book 4 heaven
GOD SAID "I will remember their sins no more" (Jer 31:34; Heb 8:12; Heb 10:17)! HE'S SPEAKING to those who "BELIEVE!" You say "believe" LIES? I say "HE WILL "REVEAL" (Jn 14:26;16:13)!
IT IS WRITTEN! You say blv LIES?I say "FAITH" n Jn14:26;16:13
I got a long reply to this, but I'm only allowed 250 chars... Was about to spend another of my 2cents.
I'll help here. IF Jesus really died on the cross for 'salvation'; then WHY does God make comments in both testaments about 'remembering their sins no more in SEVERAL places before Jesus died? What about Paul's teaching being so different from Jesus?
JESUS is GOD! HE KNEW fm beginning HE 'D make a NEW COVENANT in which HE'D "remember our sins no more" & speak to us via HS (Jer 31:34;Heb8:12; 10:17)! Paul was "chosen" (Acts 9:15) via HS (aka JESUS) to speak on HIS behalf cont & giving GRAC
You're really not familiar with what has been going on surrounding the controvery over Paul and how much it disagrees with the manipulated Gospels, are you? Again, you would have SEEN that if you had actually read my hub. Do a search.
YES! I'm aware of the "Pauline Doctrine" another device to lose souls fm RELIGION! Girl, just RELY ON HOLY SPIRIT - HE TELLS "ALL!" U should read my HUBS. They're not as long as yours! lol And have more "substance" because "revelation" fm WORD ther
Well I do agree with Cat about guilt has always been there before adulthood or whatever religiousity introduced to us. And yes, we are all unworthy sinners, who are fortunate enough that Jesus died for us, but it doesn't convert you automatically and
JN: Your mama taught u guilt (morals) & religion added! Thereafter, society & associates contributed! Religion taught u "unworthy sinner" not JESUS (WORD)!
I've read a couple of your hubs - they are not much different than your confusing answers in here. You ramble on and on while quoting scripture to prove your RELIGIOUS DOGMA points. Your message is no different: BELIEVE Jesus died for your sins.
From your analogy, if we are all PERFECT, don't need salvation, there's no hell, why don't we ALL just do as we please & have a D "good party?" THAT'S IGNORANT!
It isn't ignorant. If you can read the bible you can read my entire hub about this - it will answer all your questions that you can't imagine. I'm letting this question go now, Norine - you already know what I think and it is time to move on. Ta!
You going to have a D "good party" in JESUS? YOU THINK? There are repercussions for EVERYTHING - even in the flesh! How much more do you think there are in the Spirit if u do as u please?
Again, you've judged me without knowing what you are talking about - and insulting at every turn, INSISTING that *I* am 'doing what I want' and 'against Spirit' while YOU are the one who continues to quote from a book of manipulative pagan lies.
The Book is our "Baseline" as it is yours or you wouldn't "think" u have a "gift" of tongues or is that which has been MANIFESTED in "your" life a LIE too? I've had MANIFESTATIONS also & why I say, Book doesn't rule HOLY SPIRIT DOES! Let "HIM" WO
delia-delia profile image81
Best Answer Delia (delia-delia) says
Through my childhood and adult years I have gone to many different faith churches. After many disappointments of what the church stood for ... I decided I wanted to be a "Christian" (a follower of Christ) without a particular church religion that was geared to politics and man made rules...this is my Choice!
I donate/tithe to organizations that spreads the word of God worldwide, as well to organizations that help the starving, poor and others...that is my Choice! A gift has to be given from the heart, otherwise God does not recognize it. Salvation is not about being good or good deeds, it's about accepting Jesus Christ and His purpose of dying for our sins, our salvation through Him....it then becomes a way of life. Fear does not come from God. We are all born sinners and at a point in life we have to make a decision of Faith.
Really no one is answering the question, just arguing who is right! It saddens me when I read with caps (screaming) and replies with derogatory remarks ... we are not to argue about religion, we are to make disciples, not converts to our opinion. Jesus is looking for disciples not converts ... and that is my mission as a Christian.
I will not debate on this...just answering a question here.
I love your answer a thumbs up from me. I totally agree with you. I have only tried to do the same thing in that respect. When saying we do not worship religion. We worship God The Father. It seems people want to attack you for that.
Jesus said so
"It seems people want to attack you for that." For SIMPLY believing that you want to 'worship God' or do good? POOR YOU! What is there to get angry about? If that is all religions did - there would be no problem & MUCH less judgments & hate.
Misfit judgment and hate operates on people who force their opinions so militant like Hitler they deny the freedom God gave us all.
What is good for you is not for another again If you like and believe a certain thing you are responsible for it .
You are really good at passing the buck - as so many Christians I know are. YOU do absolutely NOTHING to deserve such criticism. Again, this is the way C's are taught: don't think, just believe the harmful lies and you will have treasures in heaven.
Misfit if harmfull lies are told you decide that yourself.
Example you have a teacher that teaches can that teacher attack students insult them and say you listen to lies in the world. No! The teacher must have good character and consider others .
K&T, I am sure YOU are a very good person. AGAIN, if all dogmatic, Chrisitian religious fanatics were like you; we wouldn't have any problems with Christians in this world, would we? If you BELIEVE kids go to hell unless they 'get saved' - you HA
Misfit it on time that you bring the subject up about Hell.
In a few days I will post a hub based on the real meaning and existence of rather it is a real place.
I will post in a few days . I hope it will help many to understand the truth.
I cover hell, where evil comes and SO MANY other things in my hub - you must have missed it that one time when you responded to it. However, if you intend to prove something other than the 'general' C-concept; you'll need to rethink 'salvation' also.
DD: Fine but not "a follower of Christ" I Cor 1:11 "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." Did Paul not "argue" w/Peter?" Gal 2:11 "I withstood him" [Peter].." What kind of "disciple" r u?
Norine did you ref the Hebrew original text showing YHWH over 7000 times , also found on artifacts before king James translated his version of the bible in 1600's?
Did you read how Jesus read from Isaiah 61 :1 Jehovah name.
Luke 4:17-19 he reads
Delia, I love your passion for God and God's work but I am sad that you quit to go to the church because of people's evil. In fact, we must realize that we all are fallen short of glory so we need to have sympathy which each other.
K&T:GOD chgs fm "GLORY to GLORY" thruout Scripture! The NAME "Jehovah" IS "forever" (Was,IS & IS 2 Come) as is "I AM!" BUT HE didn't come (I Tim 3:16) & DIE for NOTHING! HE wants RECOGNITION for DYING! Phil 2:10 is NOW Present "GLORY"-Get
Also Norine why do you quote everthing from KJV. You will not address his error that he deleted and Replaced with LORD.
Its like you read a book that has errors and pass the errors to others becuse you trust it is 100percent true.
Really K&T? You think that the version Norine quotes from makes a difference? What did the early Christians do without ONE? They didn't need a BOOK. That was created to combine competing pagan religions into one manageable belief structure to RUL
It's as though I'd write a story about u! I could say "woman" (Jehovah/GOD) for that is WHAT u r but NOT your name (K&T?) as it is with GOD (JEHOVAH)! GOD'S (aka JEHOVAH) "NAME" is "JESUS" (I Tim 3:16; Phil 2:10;Rev 1:8;17-18)!
Misfit what did Jesus read from a scroll.one was the book of Isaiah 61:1
You seem to be miltant about paganism I agree there is traces of it in religion , but the truth is still standing.
You say throw it all out based on pagan contamination.No !
K&T: I AGREE w/u! She has forgotten GOD (aka HOLY SPIRIT) will "reveal" LIES "if" she BELIEVES! The "POWER" of the HOLY SPIRIT is what she's defying & "thinks" HE'S with her? Heb 10:38! She's "drawn back!"
Which means I love my creator and it does not envolve answering to any human for my feelings. I am willing to share my happiness of the subject , but no one can change that my truth.
Your reasons for 'believing' the way you do and WHY the harmful effects from them on the rest of the world is okay - are as fanatical & nonsensical as Norine's are, K&T. Your melodramatic 'rights' are not being questioned - your reasoning is.
CAT: "Reasoning?" I Cor 4:10 "You WISE, me "CRAZY" in Christ like disciples? Who do u serve?
Yes Yes Yes , but I am Christian and I feel that we are not committed to the will of God which is easy just to love one another and to make disciples. We are in a time that we need to discern the fake ones(preachers) which mean we need to read the word of God which is selfless and love. You are absolutely correct with the big difference of fait and religion. We need to do the Father's will and not our own selfish reason
Ok. not all religions are organised and following or not following a religion is very much a choice. Yes, though all are definitely based on the concept of fear. Not sure if a bit of fair is good or bad. It all kinda looks like a hazy picture until you want to believe it. Just my op.
I know how you feel Charlie! I was raised christian and it sure is lacking as a faith! I got into a 12 step program and found Science of Mind we believe in a truth in all faiths and are open at the top and have NO GUILT!! Check it out it might be a philosophy and faith that works for you!
Yes, I do believe there is a ton of 'guilting' involved with keeping members of a religious faith committed to it. I also think there is a lot of FEAR that goes into organized religion, which goes hand-in-hand with guilt. So many organized religions developed or were founded in times when life was much, much scarier and harder for humans. Faith in God was, for many, the only thing "stable", and churches and other religious institutions gained congregants easily with fear tactics - threats of burning in Hell, horrible things falling on family and friends, and so on - and they really worked.
I agree with you here. But really people are allowing them self to be fooled , because what ever they may feel guilty about the religion says you can pay to remove it. Just pass the buck here.
Sad because they still don't have the right channel.
Sure is "Sad!" How in the world can one think GOD is "fear" IF one is IN CHRIST? PROBLEM: They're not "IN" or they would "FEAR" NOTHING & KNOW they are SAVED from ANYTHING in this life and the one to come!
I do not pretend to understand each and every religion in this world. But I do believe that most religions were born out of the hope that we are not alone in this world. It is the hope for a better future (represented by heaven) that enables us to live our life on this earth. I believe that religion is man-made, but just because it is so, it doesn't mean that it has to be false.
Like everything, religion is good when employed in the right way. The problem is that some people have misused religion; using religion to promote their own needs, for their own gain.
Religion by itself does not necessarily make us feel guilty. Most of the time, we do that all by ourselves. Eat a little too much, and we start to feel guilty. Cry for a little too long, and we give ourselves a hard time for it. It's human nature to feel guilty about everything we do.
Religion has received a lot of backlash in these times for being "narrow-minded". And to be honest, I do not believe it is religion which is narrow-minded. I find that there are just these certain people who seem to be using it as a sort of sword to use against those who oppose their own beliefs. I for one, do not believe that God has ever written that we should kill our children should they be gay! And for those who indeed believe so, I feel sorry for you.
As for spiritually and religion, there's no real difference between them. They may be using different paths, but they both aim for the same destination. And I believe that either followers, as well as those who reside in the external categories should respect each other for their beliefs.
1st: U "MUST" thk Spiritually! Killing child "spiritually" (Don't condone) not physically! 2nd: When u speak AGAINST WORD IIKgs17:29-41=ONE "PATH;" Lev19:17="REBUKE;" Jn4:23-24=SPIRIT ONLY;"RESPECT?" Matt21:12-13; WHO DO U SERVE (I Cor 10:21)?
Misfit learning from Jesus example he knew humans potential of how much to feed humans spiritually.
Joh 16:12“I still have many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them now.
So to start only do one subject at a time .
Sarah, you have spoken the most sensible and enlightened comment I have see here in a long time. Thank you!
That's because u haven't "STUDIED" the Bible!
II Kgs 17:29-41 says they "THINK" they worship GOD, but have created their own (AS MOST ON HP)! There aren't "DIFFERENT PATHS" to the same CREATOR!
R there diff women to ur wife? Maybe but shouldn't!
There is a big difference between Spirituality & Religion. MANY Christians respond to their religion as being spiritual, not religious because they have a PERSONAL relationship with Jesus - a REQUIRED 'belief' or HELL. Spirituality = no requireme
TRUE - "BIG DIFF!"
GOD'S definition of "RELIGION" is not man's (Jm 1:27)! Man thks org/denomination is their "Religion!" FOOLS!
"BELIEF" has manifested 2 MANY thgs in my life 2 agree "no req!"
What's GOD going to do w/unbelievers if NO HELL?
Christian problem: can't grasp the concept that there ARE NO BAD PEOPLE AT ALL in God's eyes. He only sees each person as they actually are and what they are becoming - he CANNOT comprehend any 'bad thing' we do. There are NO SINS - only consequences
"No sin only consequences?" Consequences only in this life & none to come?
With that analogy, why don't we just "go for it" because "we" can figure out way to overcome "consequences?"
1. Aren't coming to church.
2. Don't tithe.
3. Don't do everything your minister tells you to do
That's the true.
Most "mainstream" religions are found on guilt AND fear. If you look throughout the histories of each religion, you'll find more often than not, that the bases of each spiritual path was founded on individual power -- or rather, the power coming from each person, and not from some special figure (i.e. "the pope"). Though the people in power couldn't have that, because if people widely knew that, they'd see know reason to "donate" or "tithe" or worship idolic figures or listen to laws and rules made up by people who think they are the only ones who can "speak" and "hear" from their deity.
A good example, is with Christianity and most Abrahamic religions. If you look into Mary Magdaline and Gnosticism, it turns out that all of that powerful information, along with a great deal more, was "edited" out by John the Baptist and others, only because it would have taken their power to control people away.
I agree. Organized religion is built on a foundation of making people feeling guilty and, at the same time, dependent on so called greater forces that rule our lives and actions.
I believe in God, but my feeling is the greater forces that try to rule our lives and actions are the corrupt leaders that have instilled this feeling. Scriptures are only as good as the leaders that tell you how to interpret them.
Very true Charlie , Are we listening to human interpretations or are we listening direct instructions from our Heavenly Father. EPHESIANS 4:4-6 says it's only one of each , one faith. It does not say man belief is an option , but people use human.
YES! The PROBLEM IS: "leaders that tell you how to interpret them" & MOST to lazy to "STUDY" for themselves! Why do u think I give Scripture?MOST people don't "study" Bible!Some have heard for 1st x! Why we should quote Scripture for "poor soul
Norine, do you count yourself among the chozen few that are not lazy. And full of humility?
I count myself "Righteous by "FAITH!" "For I am not ashamed of the "Gospel of Christ" (Rm1:16) "& for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth BOLDLY, to make known the MYSTERY of the Gospel" (Eph6:19)!
No one is 'ashamed' of the Gospel of Christ - just MAD about the manipulated set of 'scriptures' designed to unite & rule over unruly, diverse pagans centuries ago. The real story of Jesus is far more spiritually viable, believable and freeing.
And look how the HOLY SPIRIT is "leading" us to TRUTH! HE has now "revealed" to us that "GRACE" sets us FREE!
No more "works," HE "WORKS" (Eph 2:8-9)! CAT, u don't have to do it, HE'S doing IT! Look how HE is "WORKING!" GOD is "MOVING!"
Never lost for words of pseudo-wisdom.
Charles, look how Satan comes when TRUTH is coming to light! Look how Scripture is being fulfilled!
I pet 5:8 "..bcuz your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour."
GOD (WORD) doesn't LIE!
Absolutely. Guilt is a very powerful motivator and it keeps people focused on the past, on a continual cycle of sin-punishment-redemption that never ends, trapping them in the confines of organized religion. If you feel the crushing weight of guilt for your own perceived sins, and the only prescription is returning to the church, or any other practice of legalism, you become a rather reliable source of income and devotion. Guilt doesn't have a place in true spirituality. Guilt and the external alleviation of guilt is the substitute for spirituality.
"Guilt doesn't have a place in true spirituality." Amen!
Amen! If you're looking for the REAL truth of our guiltless, non-judgmental salavation story that Jesus actually came here to teach - check out my hub for the reality of our eternal existence without hell. God did not enslave your mind - rulers did.
You have a right to keep certain things your buisness I respect that. But you layed it on the table to us on HP as you wanted us to know your buisness on the subject. Why mention it.
I've told you several ways, but again: I want children to know what Jesus' message really was without the religious dogma meant to enslave their minds - cuz its WAY cooler. Jesus said the truth will set you free, not enslave you - and, it does.
Misfit there are Mature Adults here.
If I my children were still young I would sensor anything I feel not good for them. If you can not explain it to me .there is no way I would alow my children to here another's view I think is questionable.
I CAN explain it and I have - in my hub - in DETAIL, several different ways over. And, I could have done more - in fact, removed 2500 words to shorten it. Its not bible-length. Just because you won't read it doesn't mean I can't explain.
Fair reply which hub explains the subject you feel answers the questions I posted. I sincely would like to here the answers.
It is my very first spotlight hub in my profile: Debunking Salvation & Christian Deconversions: How Science & Spirituality are Exposing the Real Message of Jesus Christ
WinterVery true ! People are opportuni,they ride on the subject and add their own twist for their own selfish desires.
Religion has been used as tool to beat people with.
But it was never to be used in that way.
It was to be use as a portal to God
RELIGION doesn't have to make one "feel guilty!" READ Roman 1:18-20 GOD SAID we KNEW from "creation ungodliness & unrighteousness & have no excuse!" So if we KNEW, it's intuitive!
As I teach, I learn (Rm 2:21)!
Misfit I will continue follow up on things you posted in the hub , but subject by subject not in whole. I do see some truth .
But I see other things too.
We will keep in touch.
Organized religion shouldn't be a concern for anyone who is seeking God. A relationship with Jesus is what is important and let the Lord handle the rest. Try not to over think it and pray and ask God what to do about the organized religions you are speaking about. We can all answer you in some way and probably agree with you on many aspects but our human opinion isn't the answer. Jesus is the answer and if any religion tells you something that doesn't line up with Gods word then it isn't of God. There will be many in the church that are stumbling. Just because they believe in God doesn't mean that they won't push people away from the church, give false witness and make mistakes. They are just as human as us. Luckily God is there to forgive and keep in mind the word "church" in the bible isn't speaking of a building where people gather. Definition of the Church. The New Testament word for "church" is ekklesia [ejkklhsiva], which means "the called out ones." In classical Greek, the term was used almost exclusively for political gatherings. In particular, in Athens the word signified the assembling of the citizens for the purpose of conducting the affairs of the polis. Moreover, ekklesia [ejkklhsiva] referred only to the actual meeting, not to the citizens themselves. When the people were not assembled, they were not considered to be the ekklesia.
You are right to question organized religion we are instructed "Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world." 1 John 4:1
Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save. (psalms 146:3)
"Jesus is the answer and if any religion tells you something that doesn't line up with Gods word then it isn't of God."
Based on these scriptures speaking in toungues would end based all the nations would be able to understand Jesus message in their own toungue or language.
1Cor 13:8 There are tongues they will cease.
This scriptures is true no need for tongues
K&T: Why didn't you read the rest to "put into right context?" V12 "...but then face to face..." Are we "face to face" when tongues will THEN cease? If you continue to take the "text" out in error, all you have is "con!" Get it? "Con" - "text?
Guilt emerge when there is knowledge of what is right and wrong. Scripture produces faith (Romans 10:17). Faith simply means knowing or seeing the unseen (God). Religion gathers people to come to God or to a deity. In Christianity some are Churchians, have a church life and engage in church activity but don't have God's life and don't engage in God's activity (Matthew 23). True religion is not crafted in the shadow of one's mind but it is crafted in the light of God's love.
Yes, but no one has explained in a satisfactory way how to segregate "true" religion from others. Especially when it seems that the purpose of many mainstream "religions" is to bash competition. Satan's always there confusing scripture understanding.
Not "satisfactory" to u Charles, bcuz against what u believe but the ONLY way to "segregate "true" religion from others" is via the HOLY SPIRIT! MOST don't BELIEVE the HOLY SPIRIT is ALIVE "TODAY" & can "reveal" TRUTH! MOST didn't "WAIT"(Acts 1
Again, what did Christians do for HUNDREDS of years b4 the bible? Jesus was not 'given' the HS, he was BORN with it - as are we born with OUR OWN 'Christos' inside that simply needs to be realized as Jesus realized it. He was NO DIFFERENT than us.
GOD was "manifested in the flesh" (ITim3:16) who IS the HOLY SPIRIT! You don't believe "Adam sinned" causing us to be born of sin(Rm5:19)? I still can't understand how unbelievers are going to heaven? Explain!
I've told you - I explain in detail in my hub that you refuse to actually read. It needs more than 250 characters. Quit quoting bible verses at me, they mean NOTHING to me since you can't grasp where I'm coming from.
You use Bible as Base or we wouldn't be having this conversation! The diff between you & I, you are not allowing the HOLY SPIRIT "reveal" LIES therein, whereas "I AM!"
I have "FAITH" the HOLY SPIRIT WILL&therefore "RIGHTEOUS" by "FAITH" (H
Norine, you insulting harpy! YOU DO NOT have a singular understanding about the HS. You argue with everyone, even peeps on your side. Remove the plank from your own eye. I did not come to these conclusions without the HS - go read.
I agree; we do agree there is Paganism in Bible which is our Base but you are TRYING to find TRUTH thru "self"-intelligence whereas I RELY on HOLY SPIRIT!
Now who do you think is going to get BETTER RESULTS?
OK! I'm gone! Talk to you Monday!
Stop telling me what I am trying to do - you're still partially blind. My point is that paganism is NOT our base; and Jesus message was forced into a pagan storyline so people WOULD believe to unite them for easier ruling over. What was real message?
Catherine, we have all tried. There is none so blind as those who wont see. When Norine is ready, only then, will she open the Inner Eye.
Nice job, Jonny - that 'inner eye' comment won't scare her away at all, LoL! LOTS of religions aside from Christianity are twisted, including many inner-eye folks. This is where 'the spirit' comes in - to discern. It is not a mystery, we ALL have one
Baby Girl, IF the entire Bible is a LIE, the point is, the HOLY SPIRIT will "lead & guide us into ALL TRUTH!" It is 'the Spirit," not the Book!
The Message is "GRACE!" Under "GRACE" we DO nothing-HOLY SPIRIT "DOES" IF we BELIEVE in HIM not BOOK
Catherine's introduction to her Profile reads: "I'm an almost middle-aged misfit chick......"
Is it appropriate to address her as "Baby girl?" Not sure if it is said with sense of fun/good will/endearment, or intended to be derogatory.
Satan sees differently than we do! Take it as u please but was not addressed to u (Satan) at all!
Charlie, if you are a believer John 4:21-24 satisfactory segregate "true" religion from others. And if you are not a believer, let your words be your own.
"Satan sees differently than we do! Take it as u please but was not addressed to u (Satan) at all!"
The sort of thing a wolf in sheep's clothing would say to a sheep in wolf's clothing?
Misfit Chick has "tasted" HIS WORD & was given a "GIFT!" She has now chosen to follow Satan (I Cor 10:21)! Once "tasted" & "fall away," she is now "crucifying to herself the Son of God afresh" (Heb 6:4-8) & "putting HIM to shame." But
This is a very good question which already contains the answers. Yes, organised religion is definitely just one big guilt trip. Religion or not, if you strive to do good there will be nothing to feel guilty about.
You are correct serving a "man's" church has nothing to do with serving God. To serve God one must be led by the Holy Spirit and not by an apostate man. Christians ARE NOT called to go to church, THEY ARE THE CHURCH. According to scripture pastor is one of the functions/ministries of the elders appointed by God to HIS body at large and not to any building or organization. There is only one title in the NT- brother or sister. And according to scripture no man is above/over another man all are equal in standing before God. YES some have more responsibility which scripture tells us means they are to be servants TO ALL and not to be served. Any person who allows himself to be called "pastor " or any other title but brother do not understand the NT which is the guide book to Spiritual Israel for following Christ. The OT was the guide book for natural Israel which could not have access to God but had to go through man .
That all changed at the cross when shed His blood and opened access directly between God and man again. It the OT was fulfilled by Christ as had been foretold and was finished and done as it said it would be when all was fulfilled by a MAN, CHRIST THE SON OF GOD.
since God has left the "the church system of men" they have no other way to keep the sheep in their corral. " the professional pastors" are taught and believe the sheep belong to them and must serve them and "their church". It truly is "their church" because they follow the man in charge not the Spirit of God as He is not available there. They are taught that hype and emotionalism are the move of God but those things are only the moves orchestrated by men.
When God is moving there is reverence and not unbridled emotionalism. men will be in the background not the forefront,
God has given each a measure of discernment but most follow the leader because they do not use this gift from God to protect themselves from the wolves.
"he" says they are supposed to follow him , their head
, yet scripture says " the head of man is Christ" and NO man has a right to claim headship over any other man or woman.
Going to church does not make you a Christian anymore than standing in a garage makes you a car.
Asking for and/or paying a tithe as a Christian only shows you do not understand scripture and are disobeying it.
Disobeying your "pastor" usually means you understand scripture and do not belong in "his church", not that you are a rebel as he claims
I am impressed with so many of you responding with similar versions of ‘the difference’ between what YOU know and ‘idiot churchgoers’ know. Again, WHATEVER did Christians do for over 300 years without their harmful dogma? Died like idiots, too?
Funny thing there. I really loved Sunday School. We did not read the Bible. Our teachers just sang and read great stories for children. They pretty much instructed us about the love of Jesus. We believed without the Bible. Hell came later.
Misfit you are calling people that are equal in life to you idiots. What are you are measuring others by ? A knowledge to make this claim ? What is your source of truth that would make people idiots.
It does not in your speech and human compassion
You hear plenty of human compassion in my rants that religion teaches children they are unworthy sinners. Your SS teachers ever taught you about Jesus dying on the cross for your sins as a child, Eric? I'm MEAN cuz it HARMS and isn't true - LEARN
Nope - I do not agree. 6 year olds do not need to hear of fire and brimstone and Christs horrible death.
That may be cool for around 13 year olds. You must not have children.
No, I don't have kids but I WAS a child... Perhaps your Sunday School was slightly more enlightened. Great time to teach kids they are unworthy sinners at 13 when they are carving out their personalities among peer pressure & learning responsibil
Yes indeed. My older adult children really do not buy into anything but the warm embrace of their creator. Maybe I taught them wrong. Fear only has the notion of respect around here. My six year old and I are wrestling with a Holy Spirit. Great stuff
So, its cool with you that you and your children base your life on pagan lies embedded into a book centuries ago by power-hungry killers to rule over masses of pagans easier? This is why the world suffers - ignorants insisting lies are 'the way'.
The Roman Catholic church is indeed paganistic. Thank God His Son Jesus said "You must be born again." Islam is a religion of control & violence. If they cannot find an infidel to kill they kill other Moslems, even family members. BHO is a Moslem
John 3 Said BEFORE: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
You are a booboo head. What condemnation and hell you bring to us. Fear really guides our faith young Misfit. You will grow in time and find the love. But you clearly are not ready to embrace our Saviors gift. Do not worry you will learn as time pass
Another condescending Christian who insists lies are right and not worth researching. I've been a 'believer' like you - baptized in the HS and STILL speak fluently in 'tongues'. Jesus message was NOT pagan-based; and I am not the only discoverer
Cool you speak in tongues but you cannot speak with love toward your fellow sinner. Maybe ain't got no plank in your own eye. Peter thinks you a miracle.
Me I just give it my best and fail. You obviously do not wrong and can judge.
Oh, please... You seem like a relatively intelligent person. All I am trying to do is get people to look beyond a 'faith' meant to enslave their minds as MANY people have done. RESEARCH. I am not your fellow sinner - neither are your kids or peers.
Misfit why and for what reason you speak in tongues? We understand english just fine. The miracle to speak in toungues was based on spreading Jesus message to other nations without the education like a school of language
Way cool, Misfirt speaks in tongues and Norine speaks for the Holy spirit. I we just follow them then we are blessed by the Spirit. I just cannot do it based on their word. They are human after all.
I have never suggested that you alter your beliefs based on my word - NOR am I even SORT of suggesting that speaking in tongues is a big deal at all! I've said repeatedly, RESEARCH because LOTS of other C's R 'former' or 'ex' for REALLY GOOD reasons.
Yes CAT! And those "reasons" are mentioned in Jn 10:10! Heb 6:4;6"For it is impossible for those who were ONCE enlightened & have tasted of the heavenly gift, & were made partakers of the HS, If they shall fall away, to renew them again ..."
And those "reasons" are mentioned in John 10:10!
They have taken over the JOB of the HOLY SPIRIT!
Misfit I want you to know I finally got around to reading your hub .
You have a whole lot of info fusion together here.
It like taking a full meal and trying cram it all down at once in the throat.
Can you really digest food that way ?
Apparently, Misfit has forgotten JESUS is POWER (Acts 1:8)to "reveal" Paganism embedded in the Bible! Satan has won in the "BATTLE OF THE MIND" with her.He has given her the idea that "she" needs to "help" others by researching man-made mess!
Of course, organized religion is constructed on a foundation of guilt, suffering, negativity, & total self-abnegation. The purpose of organized religion is to create inferiority & powerlessness in the masses w/ the purpose of controlling them. Religion is the biggest business & psychology invented to beguile the masses in more ways than one. Religion preys on the weakness of people, they want people to be W-E-A-K in order to fully bend them over to a particular religious ideology.
Religion is about C-O-N-T-R-O-L. The biggest tools that religion use to control are the concepts of S-I-N, E-V-I-L, & the good old standby of H-E-L-L. Hell is one of the biggest scare tactics used to control & instill fear in the masses.
Religion is furthermore about keeping people ignorant. Religious rules are only instituted to keep people blindly obedient & unthinking. Religious authorities laugh at the rules they institute, they DON'T follow them. Religion have rules because it is known that the masses are unthinking, believing that such rules have an imprimatur. People who are knowledgeable & intelligent don't follow or believe in religion. Religion is for the less educated &/or uneducated masses to keep them in the dark.
Religion is about self-abnegation. Religion is afraid of the self. It teaches that to have a high sense of self is in contradiction to a relationship w/a deity or religious authority. So according to religion, in order to have a relationship w/a deity or religious authority, one must totally subjugate, even subvert the self. This is the reason why religion decries pride, relegating it to one of the supposed seven deadly sins-because pride means an awakening & questioning of religion which defeats the purpose of religion.
I think you've focused on one particular religion, instead of religion as a whole. What you're saying isn't absolutely wrong or right, but it is an extreme end of the spectrum of religion; this is religion at its worst. I respect your opinion though.
GW: Why do u "thk" u're smarter than THE CREATOR of whom we have the SAME "POWER" (Jn14:12-14)? Why do u "thk" we "fear" when HE is in us (IJn4:4)? Why do you ONLY "thk" we are trying to get "fire insurance" rather than "BENEFITS" n THIS life?
Since the ancient days, including before the bible, people needed to understand what they couldn't control, such as volcanoes erupting, or absence of rain resulting in a poor harvest. This is the historical foundation of religion, not guilt.
Do we know "GOD'S def" of RELIGION? Jm 1:27 says "Do "works" for needy & look good to ppl!"
We NOW "Worship in SPIRIT & in TRUTH" (Jn4:23-24)! Why does world confuse RELIGION w/WORSHIPING GOD? What GOD'S def (SPIRIT)have 2 do w/RELIGION ("w
No. I think it is based on self will. i.e No one will see you when you help a poor man secretely or pray in your own room alone. But it goes wrong when people want to prove themselves to others or desire to control the wills of others denying them freedom, people should do things out of self-will, dedication, commitments and most of all love.
27Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
Hope I have tried to answer you, Nice time.
NO ONE should "prove themselves!" Who are we? II Tim 3:16 says we should "prove" w/the WORD of GOD what HE SAID & "not suffer sin upon" ANYONE (Lev 19:17)!
Jm 1:27 has NOTHING to do with SPIRITUAL thgs! GOD'S def of Religion is CARNAL!
In Romans 6:1 says-
what shall we say then? shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?.
religion is a platform for all men to return to God because. every man born of a woman is a sinner even from birth, so therefore we should be happy to have a system that reminds us of what we not doing right.
It's been my experience that people love "religion". By which I mean, all of the policies, practices, procedures and unwritten "protocols" that exist in all religions. Though I must say, organization is important, but it ought not over-shadow the reason the Creator sent his son to bring about the Atonement and the Crucifixion. Which leads to the axiom of the gospel.
Christ is the First and the Last. The Alpha and Omega. The Father of heaven and earth.
Out thoughts, motivations and feelings ought to be guided by his teachings. Love one another. Be kind. Be generous. Avoid value judgments. Step away from arguing who's/what's right, and who's/what's wrong. Seek to do all those things that may align one's self to the Holy Spirit.
As to the guilt stuff. That is a tactic used for many and various purposes. If you feel guilty about anything then you need to be evaluating your responses and reactions (as you should be doing every day with all of your reactions and responses) to the various scenarios around the place and ask yourself why you are feeling guilty. People don't make you feel guilty. You allow yourself to feel guilty.
Take back your personal power. Christ gave us free-agency. We choose. This way or that way...we choose. It's not the weather, it's not the govt., it's not whether or not it's a full moon.
If you are allowing others making you feel bad; you are not in charge or directing your life at all well. You are simply going along with the crowd/mob.
I'm not suggesting thumbing your nose at people and becoming vain/arrogant/conceited; simply see them as they are. "That's where they're at". And there's nothing you can do about how they act. And what they think is absolutely none of your business.
Your business, is your business. Get on with it. Because if you are worried about what everyone else is thinking, doing or saying; you are neglecting the most important thing in your life. You.
Yes we choose - but, we already had free will & free agency. I choose to make this topic my business because I've seen & experienced the serious & deceptive harm that 'salvation' has had on people on all sides. Truth about Christ has been
Step away from arguing who's/what's right, and who's/what's wrong." WRONG! Lev 19:17 "And what they think is absolutely none of your business." WRONG! Matt 28:19 says "TEACH!"
I Pet 4:17 Judgment MUST begin @ the house of GOD!"
If a person who had no experience with religion whatsoever were to read your post, or at least the explanation you go into after the initial question, they would probably conclude that Christianity is the only 'organized religion'. Not so. But, while we're on that page, let's read into it further.
While there are elements of goading and guilt-mongering within that particular faith, what we have to remember is that Christianity was not, in fact, founded upon guilt-tripping. Quite contrary to what it has become (at least, in the Western world), Christ's message was intended to free humanity from the slavery of guilt, of rituals, rules and sacrifices of Judaism which served more to separate humans from God than it did to reconcile them. His message was clear: yes, there are certain things you SHOULD do to live a free and happy life; yes, there are things we call 'sin' that can destroy your life, whether eventually or immediately; but, what is true is that there is nothing that can separate us anymore from the love of God. We are all spiritual beings who have God within us (which is probably where the whole "Love Thine Enemy" philosophy came from).
Unfortunately, anytime an idea is widespread, people add to and take away from it what they wish. They utilize an idea intended for liberation to oppress others. It's a 2,000-year-old game of "Telephone" gone horribly wrong. Once again, we are in bondage to the rules, rituals and sacrifices that Christ's teachings intended to obliterate. It is a prison of our own making that, like all other evil, is erected from our selfishness.
I grew up in the church, and also had the misfortune of being a member of a Pentecostal congregation once, so I understand what you mean about the 'guilt trips' of not attending regularly, not tithing, etc. In those circumstances, my friend, it is important to remember that it is not the faith/religion that is pressuring you: it is the PEOPLE who congregate with you. Any corruption in the church or any other religious gathering comes not from the spirit of God, but from PEOPLE projecting their selfish whims, their insecurities, even their miseducation from generations of learned (incorrect) behavior.
Friend, God doesn't need our money, or our attendance at a building one or two days a week, or even for us to adhere to a self-imposed authority figure in a robe. God is within us, and around us, and always will be... Even if we decide to sleep in on Sunday.
Ding, Ding, Ding! "we are in bondage to the rules, rituals and sacrifices that Christ's teachings intended to obliterate". Spoken like someone who has been set free. Congrats.
"Ding, ding" DONG! "We are all spiritual beings who have God within us" NOT SO! There is "a spirit" but not "THE SPIRIT" (until activated by BELIEF) in us or Scripture would not have said "Test the spirits to see which one is of GOD" (IJn4:1)!
I have problems with labels and I don't believe in orgainzed religion. It's true that no one is perfect and we have faults but there are good people out there who try their very best every single day and that is one of the very, very many issue's I have with religion is that you are made to feel that you are not good enough no matter what you do no wonder some people struggle with self esteem issues.
100% agreed. Organized religions make all of their money through guilt and shame; it's the only way they survive. Shame and guilt are horrible foundations for anything, but especially spirituality.
Please do not disgrace such like that..always respect each other.
If a pastor is shaming you, or playing the guilt card, then you are in the wrong place. For those that see scripture in the proper context, sin is not meant to shame, as we all sin. Romans 3:23 is a great reference here. We will all fall short, but that was the purpose for Christ's crucifixion, and the lasting effect that remains is the forgiveness of all sin through the blood of Christ. Christianity is not about shame, it is about acknowledging the fact that we all have flaws, and that we are all imperfect in the eyes of God. But at the same time, this imperfection does not cause him to love us any less. John 3:16, That is real love!
What do u thk the intent of the 10 Commandments was? To show us sin & make us feel "guilty!" Speed limit (law) does same! Cain didn't know what murder was (Gen 4:9) until LAW enacted (Gen 4:11)! We now feel "guilt & shame" if violated.
American law is based on natural law, or God's law. Recently there have been many laws created that have been imposed arbitrarily, but the orgin of American rule of law has divine origins. That is fact.
TRUE! But "guilt & shame" (Gen 3:8-11) started here when Adam & Eve sinned!
Rm 1:18-25 says "We knew from the creation of "ungodliness & unrighteousness" (guilt & shame) & "have no excuse!"
That is not a fact - the founding fathers of this nation went to great lengths to make sure that this country was a country FREE from the ridiculous bonds that religions put on people. Cain KNEW that he had killed his brother, Norine. Twisted, much?
Rm 1:18-20 LIED? We didn't know fm creation? Why did Adam hide? Why r u mixing "Founding fathers" w/"SPIRITUAL?"
I agree Paganism in Book, but BELIEVE "moreso" HOLY SPIRIT "reveals" not research! U've fallen fm GRACE overruling HIM!
I agree-he knew!
Quit judging me, Norine. You are completely CLUELESS about my spiritual state as you keep demonstrating. The 1st little rock you see as you step out the door is more aware of 'Spirit' than you are - and, it is that way WITHOUT manipulated holy texts.
No need to insult me bcuz u are AGAINST HOLY SPIRIT'S (JESUS') JOB! U are "trying" to "reveal" vs JESUS! Who do u thk u are? Smarter than THE CREATOR? U insult JESUS & every CHRISTIAN there's EVER been! GOD "reveals," not you!
I think you are referring to religious institution. If the Apostles and the Apostolic Fathers went abroad preaching different messages then Christianity would never have evolved. Organization and a reasonably consistent message are absolute necessities. Organized Christianity was successful because it allayed the existing fears of the poor by providing a religion that was equally accessible to all. Islam spread by creating fear. Fear of taxation, discrimination, persecution, and even death if one did not convert. Regulated religious institutions came later. Today we see these institutions mixed with a return( at least in the Christian West) of the original intent of the Christian movement. In short, organized religion is good and institutional or regulated religion is bad.
"Organized Christianity was successful because it allayed the existing fears of the poor by...." by appealing to their superstitious nature... and controlling their habits.
"a return to the orig intent of the Christian movement" is where we're headed! Misfit has something (ONE SPIRIT) but can't seem to move "herself" out of the way of HOLY SPIRIT & thks GOD has NO WRATH (Gal 1:6-9)!
Heb 13:8! Remember OT KILLINGS
God has no wrath. He doesn't need it. It is not in his nature. He has unconditional - UNCONDITIONAL - unconditional love, balance, wisdom, harmony, and perfect peace, etc. God is our baseline who keeps our souls perfect in this playground Earth.
If HE'S "keeping our souls (minds, wills, emotions) perfect," why is the world as it is?
Bcuz u recv'd "gift," u thnk bcuz "w/o repentance" (Rm 11:29) GOD is with u, but HE has WRATH or what u call "consequences" n this world & world to come!
Explained in DETAIL in hub, nutshell: we are in chaos because we have been deceived about the reality of our existence, who we really are, and what our purpose is. You are truly set FREE when you discover the simple truth. It was Jesus real message.
Yes, it was HIS "Real Msg!"
We don't have to be "deceived!" It's a choice! You either BELIEVE & allow Holy Spirit "reveal" or take it upon "yourself" & "reveal" and be LOST (Prov 3:5)!
GOD doesn't NEED "anyone's" HELP!
There are a lot of churches that will try and make their members feel guilty in order to keep them coming every Sunday. You just have to find a church that operates differently.
Fortunately, I was able to find a startup church in my area that is the complete opposite of what you've described. It assembles in a high school auditorium since it's a very new church (8 years old) and we have yet to find a building that works for us. But even despite gathering in a public school, I honestly feel more at home when I'm with my church on Sunday mornings than I do in my own actual home. It's the highlight of my week. It kind of reminds me of the early church that you see in the book of Acts; everyone is willing to drop something or sacrifice something in a heartbeat to come to the aid of someone else. It's beautiful.
If you can find a church like this, then church is an amazing experience.
Interpretation. Guilt has no place in religion but interpretation suggests otherwise.
Absolutely. Guilt is a very powerful motivator and it keeps people focused on the past, on a continual cycle of sin-punishment-redemption that never ends, trapping them in the confines of organized religion. If you feel the crushing weight of guilt for your own perceived sins, and the only prescription is returning to the church, or any other practice of legalism, you become a rather reliable source of income and devotion. Guilt doesn't have a place in true spirituality. Guilt and the external alleviation of guilt is the substitute for spiritualityI believe there is a big difference between spirituality and religion. Spirituality is all about our relationship with God (or our Higher Power), while religions are developed by people to control other people.
Religion rests on getting a group of people to believe and behave a certain way, with fear of punishment for not following the rules properly.
Spirituality creates a relationship with a Creative Force, in which we share and receive love, not only with God, but also with those around us.
Spirituality remembers that we are all spirit beings, trapped inside vehicles of rotting flesh.
Who we are is eternal, beautiful, loving. Religion wants us to forget our connection to God and forge a bond with an institution.
TRUTH: "IF" 1 "BELIEVES," HIS WORD & r "IN CHRIST," there is NO GUILT, NO SHAME, NO FEAR!
2Tim 1:7 "For GOD hasn't given us the spirit of fear (fm guilt & shame); but of POWER, & of LOVE, & of a SOUND MIND."
As a conspiracy scientist I comfort myself with that verse when I am accused of wearing a tin-foil hat. Sound mind - no hat.
I truly agree & this once again is what I've been saying. A BIG difference between Religion & being Spiritual. Now with that said, what sets a religion apart from being a cult? Don't they work on the same principle to more or less the same de
And is why GOD gave me the HUB "Satan's Greatest Device to Lose Souls" which he (Satan) is doing IN THE NAME OF "JESUS" and MOST have fallen for it!
I would even say that atheists can be spiritual. Spirituality is not only a religious thing. Lots of artists feel a certain magic, duende in Spanish flamenco for example, that has nothing to do with god or angels but is a spiritual moment.
RIGHT! We ALL have "a spirit!" GOD said "Test the "spirits" to see whether THEY (lots of them (demons) are out there) are OF GOD" [ONE SPIRIT] in I Jn 4:1!
Therefore, if not "OF GOD" who else?
Our "spirit" is NOT "OF GOD" unless one BELIEVES!
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