Jainism and Modern sciences

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   JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years ago

   Jainism, one of the oldest religions in the world emphasizes on logical behavior. Modern sciences also move in the same way.
   
   Jainism is a spiritual science. However, it deals with material sciences too.
   
   There are huge materials about physics, astronomy, mathematics, biology and even bio-technology in the ancient texts of Jainism.
   
   One can find particle physics, theory of relativity and some descriptions about fusion in Jainism.
   
   Jainism informs us clearly about law of conservation of mass and energy. It also deals with wave particle nature of light and sound.
   
   Jainism is the first to declare the universe as finite but unlimited. It also speaks about ether as medium of transportation of all materials.
   
   Space (Akash), time (Kal), soul (Atma or Jeev), matter (Pudgal), ether (Dharmastikaya) and Adharmastikaya (Medium for rest) are six basic substances of universe according to Jainism. These are called Shad-Dravya.
   
   I will try to discuss the topic further.
   
   Thanks,
   Jyoti Kothari

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   1. 58

      gokulg4posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      What's the difference between Jainism and Buddhism and Hinduism

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         mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Jainism and Buddhism are branches of Hinduism ,the philosophy of merging with the supreme.
         Both Mahveera and Buddha were enlightened ones who spread knowledge of the light being the real self.

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            Parthanonposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            Buddhism may be but Jainism is not a branch of Hinduism. Newer evidence from Harappa have similarities to Jainism and it may be older than Hinduism. Besides, Jain's 1st tithankara Rishabh Dev has been mentioned in Rig veda several times also in other Hindu Puranas. Jains were then not known as Jains until after Mahaverr's time. Prior to that they were known as Shramans. Raja Dasharath used invite Shramanas to his palace for meals, darshan etc. There is ample evidence that Shramanas existed along side the Hindus and may be prior to Hinduism. Krishna was the first cousin of Neminath and Krishna got gyan (gnan) from him and he ultimately passed on to Arjuna and that is how we got Gita.
            Harappa and Mohanjodaro seals are of great interest because many scholars have interpreted some seal showing monks standing in a posture similar to what Jain  monks use during Kayotsarg. Much research is needed though but Jasinisms antiquity is no doubt  much farther in time.

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            Parthanonposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            Please do some reasearch.  I often come across the misunderstanding that these philosophies have something to do with merging with the supreme. This is really false and got started in India with the British and western scholars misunderstang. Indians continued this without ever understanding this at all.

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      (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I suspect that is most likely a lie, and certainly an insulting lie to those who understand those theories.
      
      
      
      I did some homework on that and found it to be pure horsepucky.
      
      
      
      Sorry, but there is no ether. That concept was refuted many years ago.
      
      
      
      Please do.

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         JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         You have really insulted an ancient religion and philosophy and perhaps you have not worked thoroughly.
         
         I am referring here some books and sacred texts of Jainism to refer. Please do some research and you can not tell like so.
         
         1. Jain Metaphysics by S. Bhattacharya
         
         Sacred texts:
         
         2. Visheshavashyaka Bhasya
         3. Navatatva Prakarana
         4. Tatvarthadhigama Sutra
         
         Thanks,
         Jyoti Kothari

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            (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            You have insulted every single person who has worked hard their entire lives to bring YOU the computer, internet connection and a myriad of discoveries that YOU take advantage of every day.
            
            
            
            And, you should take your ancient myths and superstitious claptrap and stick it where the sun don't shine, pal. People like you who think they're smart insult those who are.

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               JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Do you think that people who use slang words without knowing anything are the smartest?
               
               They just pretend to be smart and ....
               
               Those who read and research do not use this type of languages.
               
               Thanks for showing....
               Jyoti Kothari

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                  (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Those who read and research are insulted by those who pretend to to read and research, like yourself, for example.

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               Parthanonposted 9 years agoin reply to this

               Why dont you take your rude and insulting self righteous and arrogant self somewhere else. This is a place for the curious and real seeker of truth. This is not a kindergarten type religion that came out of the middle east with simple fairy tale like philosophy. These eastern philosophies require anslytical minds, and quite understandably may not be for you.

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                  Rad Manposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                  Yea, it's not nice to insult other peoples beliefs.
                  
                  Oh. You tell others not to insult peoples beliefs while you insult others beliefs. I get it now. All the religions stemming from the Torah and Kindergarden type religions, but your's require analytical minds?

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      paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Hi friend JYOTI KOTHARI
      
      What was its source? Revelation? On whom?
      
      Thanks
      
      I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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   4. 0

      crmhaskeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I'm curious what your view on santhara (voluntary death by fasting) is?  It is unique to Jainism, and as such of interest to me as to where it came from.  I've come across it in my studies, but I'd like to hear it explained to me by someone that practices the faith.
      
      Thank you,
      Christie

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      1. 59

         JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Santhara (voluntary death by fasting)is an act of serious spiritual person.As you yourself explained it, it is not necessary to repeat its definition.
         
         When a monk / nun or any other person following spiritual path feels that his or her body is not strong enough to practice spirituality or even not enough strong to practice normal life, he or she adopts for voluntary death. It is totally different from suicide.
         Santhara, is allowing the soul to leave the body peacefully to take rebirth (if not liberated. It is detachment from the body and other earthly cravings.
         
         Thanks,
         Jyoti Kothari

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2. 59

   tantrumposted 13 years ago

   I read something about Jainism ages ago. But it was the religious part. I didn't know it has to do with science as well.
   That's very interesting! I'll Google it.
   Thanks !

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3. 59

   JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years ago

   @Gokulg4,
   There are many differences between Hinduism and Jainism. Jainism does not believe in Avatar of God. Jainism does also not believe that the God has created the universe.Universe is eternal according to Jainism. All beings are also eternal.
   Jainism also says that any one can upgraded to God by his own efforts and virtues.
   
   Buddhism says that everything is Anichcha that means impermanent. Jainism speaks that substances have both qualities of permanence and impermanence.
   
   Thanks,
   Jyoti Kothari

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      Pani Midnyte Odinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Well, obviously not all beings are eternal or there wouldn't be any deaths.

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4. 59

   JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years ago

   @Mohit Mishra,
   
   Jainism as a religion is not a branch of Hinduism. However, if we term Hindu as Indian then it is OK. Both Jainism and Buddhism is originated in India.
   
   Lord Mahavira is not the founder of Jainism but the last Tirthankara.
   
   Jainism is by no means is a branch of Vedic religion (Hinduism). It has its own philosophy, God, sacred texts, and spiritual system.
   
   Vedic religions do not allow one to be upgraded as God whereas Jainism believe that every one can be upgraded to the level of God by own efforts and virtue.
   
   Moreover, this thread is for Jainism and modern sciences.
   Thanks,
   Jyoti Kothari

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      mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Mr Kothari,
      
      Yes I mean Hindu as India when I say this.
      
      The philosophy is identical ,both talk of enlightenment or merging with god
      as the pinnacle of lifes achievement.
      
      The Vedic religion does believe man can merge with god or gain enlightenment or go into a state of samadhi, union with god, become a Brahmin or knower of god.
      
      Ok thank you

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5. 75

   soumyasrajanposted 13 years ago

   Hi! Jyotiji
   I like your enthusiasm for spreading Jain philosophy. You have knowledge and it is nice, you have desire to spread it. I will like to point out two aspects which are not so visible in your initial strings. I am sure you must have also thought about it and seen it in Indian philosophy.
   
   First, to join adjective "modern" to science!  I am not sure how far it is right.
   
   Perhaps what you mean is modern style of science. Modern style of science is  basically devoted to  analytical and experimental deductions. Today's Scientists try  analytically, using logic  (Sanskrit word is "Tark") as a tool, to deduct statements from axioms formed mainly by observations from experiments.   
   
   These deductions are then used by them to predict, what might happen in certain situations. Main focus today is on using these deductions  to create technological tools for better physical living.  This second aspect, technology or style of focus on better physical living can perhaps be associated with word "modern". But Science, if you consider it as an analytical understanding, is as old as any body can think of.
   Surely as India is one of the place where human beings have lived much longer,  people there have excelled very often in these activities.
   
   Indian  rishis  monks and tirthankars practiced as much science as spiritualism ( I do not know  equivalent word in English to describe "rishi"  - closest one can think about is a hermit who is  dedicated to development of science or  knowledge and welfare of people,  Jain tirthankars are very few and in this sense they are much more special and respectful. Practically all in India worship them, again irrespective of whether they  belong to Hindu, Jain or Buddhist religion).  This is true for all ancient rishis, monks or tirthankars,  irrespective of whether they were Hindus, Jains or Budhist. All of them contributed a lot to Scientific as well as spiritual development.
   
   Once you decide science is eternal in this sense, I think any discussion on  "whether people had knowledge in ancient time of what today people discuss"  becomes a bit irrelevant. In each era focus has changed to life style of that era. Some of this focus may have been on common aspects some may not be. Quite a lot of people,  in each era, may have known a lot, which we do not even know or focus on, today.
   
   Indian ancient saying "What ever you know any time is just a drop in the ocean of knowledge" is indeed one of the best thoughts, which has come out of that  country and has been followed there by practitioners of  practically all religions. It helps you to keep yourself  away from proud (Sanskrit word  "garur" is perhaps more appropriate). You are always thirsty for knowing more, trying better in Science or  going still closure to Brahma (unique true knowledge) or Moksha  in spiritual aspects.
   
   At the same time, it inspires you to have strongly another characteristic  quite visible in thinking and style in India (again in all religions and in all ages) "to be nispriha" (to have a detachment).
   
   These qualities are  visible not just among wise people in India but also quite visible among people in other countries too like Socrates (Greek philosopher) or among very recent scientists like Einstein. Indeed their styles  were quite a bit similar to  that of rishis in India.
   
   Once you decide to mold yourself towards these qualities, all the proud   ("garur") about sentiments like "this is special in my religion or in my country" goes away automatically. People in India have always  considered  science, Knowledge or spiritualism to be shared with all, rather than feeling proud about. Generally average Indian  will want to feel happy about broking  mysteries of Science or spiritualism  and will like to share this  enjoyment {"Ananda"}  with others near him or her.
   
   This is how Indians  had moved to another important aspect in their style of science and phylosophy "sarva dharm saman bhav" (to have equal glance on all religions and spiritual philosophies).
   
   For Indians, science, religion or spiritualism were never separate compartments. They always looked at all of them together. All of them had only one aim to help one to get true knowledge, nirvana or moksha. Average Indian  practically never had in any era adopted to a style in  which you get lost in criticizing other religions or philosophies.  This is quite a bit true even today also in average Indian's life. They  always consider different religions and philosophies   as parallel thoughts and let any  individual decide  what is most suitable for him or her to achieve true knowledge, brahma or to get moksha.
   
   Indeed this is also one of the reasons that even religions, which did not originate in India have  had continuous streams of people, who adopted to them. India must be  among very few  countries where Christianity has been continuously practiced by many, since first century AD when St. Thomas came  to India.
   
   Criticism of  thoughts or style of others was always looked down in Indian style, simply because it distracts you from actual path of knowledge (or science in today's terms-- good scientists today are also not far from this path, just as good spiritual leaders).
   
   Today's style of professional science and technology has several restrictions too. For example  one generally does not really study in this style those aspects of knowledge which can not be repeated in front of others.  Experimental reproduction of what you preach is an important aspect of Science today.
   
   Indian  ancient studies   in all religions, Hindu, Jain or Buddhist had no such restrictions. Studies of scholars and spiritual leaders then were not just restricted to one style. They studied in almost any style and on any  action, thought or object. No wonder they could go into depths, in several secrets  of living and nonliving being as well as  human knowledge and spiritual aspects. 
   
   Just to associate,  what was preached by Rishis or Tirthankars or monks in ancient times in India with today's Science  or trying to win a point by saying that "Oh! they knew this aspect of today's Knowledge" is indeed  doing injustice to them and belittling them. I hope you agree.

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      Garima Bothraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Saumya,
      Thanks for writing a nice post. I am agree with you in some points and differ in some.
      
      So called modern scientists or their followers ignore and think old philosophies and spirituality as sub-standard. These types of forum posts are required to open their eyes.
      
      Thanks,
      Garima

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         mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Not all scientists do many appreciate the wisdom of these ancient masterpieces
         where science is concerned as well..

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6. 74

   WriteAngledposted 13 years ago

   I have no detailed knowledge of Jainism. What I do know, is that the Jains have an incredibly rigorous ethic and yet at the same time are incredibly successful in business and other activities. This gains my admiration and stimulates me to find out more about Jainism.

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      skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Colonization,key to success. I have seen this in India. People from same religion/region starts to sell something and only take another person from his own religion/region into it. That way, they accumulate wealth/area by what we call authority building.

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         WriteAngledposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Do you think this is the case with Jains? It was my impression that they are a minority in India and therefore start from an initial disadvantage. I do not mean any offence. My knowledge of India is fragmentary.

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            skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            This is the case with all those who are into Business in india. (Nothing religious i meant there, my point was how they or anyone becomes more successful in business in india that way. I didn't take it as offense,i was just clearing that point to you)

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      JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Hi Writeangled,
      Thanks for your comment and compliments to Jain community. In my opinion this is because of their ethics, charity, community service and spiritual thinking.
      
      Scientific thinking and logical argument embedded in the religious texts help them altogether.
      
      Thanks,
      Jyoti Kothari

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   skyfireposted 13 years ago

   First thirthankar in jainism was born hindu or in what religion ?

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      JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Is it necessary to be born in a religion? However, he has started civilization in this era so no religion was existing at that time, according to Jain texts.
      
      Thanks,
      Jyoti Kothari

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         skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Ofcourse it is necessary. The reason some religions are called Ibrahimic is because they are connected this way. Same case here, if any person born in some X religion starts his own religion even if that is NOT related to the religion in which he born, still makes that NEW religion a branch/spawned version as they say, irrespective of what texts say.
         
         
         
         This is assumption in Asia that tempts people to think this way. Online debates always go heated that's why they are debates with or without any person being smarter than the other. That's called freedom of speech which you didn't get it in that post.

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            JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Hi Skyfire,
            How can one be born in a religion if no religion existing?

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               skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Jainism was started when there was Hinduism in indus valley existing. Jainism is not the first religion on planet.

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                  JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  No one can tell exactly at this time. Do you know when Jainism started? How can you say that Hinduism were there when Jainism started?
                  
                  All religions have their own belief and their own texts. According to Jain texts, it is not an offshoot of Hinduism.
                  
                  Thanks,
                  Jyoti Kothari

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               2. 59

                  JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  What is the proof of your quote?
                  
                  Every religion has its own belief. It is very difficult to provide any proof in favor of any religion whether it is Jain, Hindu, Muslim or Christian.
                  
                  Believers of Vedic religions say that they are the oldest and the same way many other religions.
                  
                  It is not worth to engage in this type of discussions. I have only answered when some one posted that Jain is a branch of Hindu.

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         mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Hindus are the ones residing by the river Indus , Industan, hindustan, Hindus ,
         Mahavira was a Hindu.

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            mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Jainism is a branch of Hinduism.

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               skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Exactly my point. Besides Jainism looks more of agnostic religion,which is already covered by santan dharma in hinduism.

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                  mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  True skyfire they have the same philosophy of merging with the creator or god, every human has this potential.
                  
                  
                                    "Jains have santhara,
                  Quitting life consciously to join with the param atma.
                  
                               "Hindus go into samadhi.
                  Where there is n Congress,Shiv Sena , BJP or Samajwadi."

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            JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            River Indus is Sindhu in India. People living besides Sindhu were later on called Hindu. This is also a view and I do not disagree with this. Some people also link it with Hindukush.
            
            By this definition, everybody living in India is a Hindu including Christians and Muslims. However, it is not a definition of a religion but related to place of living.
            
            If you are referring Hindu as Vedic religion, then I disagree with you that Mahavira was a Hindu and Jain is a branch of Hindu. How does it sound: Hindu is a branch of Jain?
            Thanks,
            Jyoti Kothari

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               skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Nope, wrong assumption.
               
               
               
               Sounds good to me if there is proof of origin. I would like to know the timeline of jainism that you think was in the era where no religion existed. Can you show that timeline and about the birth of mahavira in family with no religion?

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                  JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Lord Mahavira was not the founder of Jainism but Lord Rishabhdev alias Adinath was the founder of Jain religion in this time cycle. I was referring to the time of Adinath and not of Lord Mahavira.
                  
                  Jain, Vedic and many other religions were existent at the time of Lord Mahavira.
                  
                  Lord Mahavira was born in a family following Lord Parswanath, the 23rd Jain Tirthankar according to Jain scriptures. No Vedic scripture claims Mahavira as a follower of Vedic religion.
                  
                  How can one say that Lord Mahavira was born in Hindu (Vedic) religion?

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                  JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Jainism is not started by Lord Mahavira. He is the last (24th) Tirthankara. naturally, he born in Jain family which were following Jain religion and Lord Parshwanath (Parasnath).
                  
                  Parasnath is the 23rd Tirthankara of Jain religion. He was from Varanasi alias Kashi and son of King Ashwasena and queen Vama Devi. He was liberated 250 years before Lord Mahavira.
                  
                  There are infinite numbers of time cycles according to Jain belief. These cycles are called Utsarpini and Avasarpini. Both of these cycles have repeated infinite times in the past and will be repeated infinite times in the future as the universe is eternal.
                  This is an Avasarpini cycle of time and Lord Rishabhdev alias Adinath has started Jainism in this era.

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               mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               True Hinduism engulf all philosophies.
               
               Mahavira is considered as a Vishnu Avatar which is Hindu philosophy.
               
               Kindly expand on your last sentence Mr.Kothari.

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   skyfireposted 13 years ago

   Not exactly merging with god, Jainism thinks of universe as always existent without creator(This is more rational). They think that anyone can be a god if they get knowledge of universe that makes more sense than those who said universe is created by god which we all know is really contradictory and gives rise to many debates.

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      englightenedsoulposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      You summed up Jainism quite nicely

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      mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Always existing because god is timeless and thus they relate this universe as timeless as well.This is the same philosophy given in Hinduism or Holy Vedas .Mahavira gained enlightenment which means merging with god the creator  that's the bottom line of Jainism.
      Do you know what Santhara is ?

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         skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         This is theistic assumption that god is Timeless. Didn't i covered the part that says assuming god's work/position is contradictory ? How you know that god is timeless? Did he let you manipulate time ? Or showed you how he can change time in scriptures or in your own life ? No. So your assumption of god being timeless is just another assumption. Mahavira gained knowledge from which he understood about universe and way of becoming a god in universe,not merging with god. Upgrading to God and Merging with god Both are different ways and Hinduism and Jainism differs here.
         
         Santhara is life without materialistic desires and quest towards knowledge.

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            englightenedsoulposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Skyfire I like the way you put forth your points and also you seem to have a deep knowledge on various religion.For me religion can be summed up in one line which I read in one of Jain religious texts....Your soul is your GOD!!

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            mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I am enlightened a knower of god so I do know go is timeless.
            
            You definition of santhara  and Mahavira gaining knowledge is your own, you should start your own dictionary .
            
            Should I put up ten links to show you passages where Mahavira gaining enlightenment is mentioned?
            
            Do a little research before making such statements please.

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               skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               So this is your own definition. Cause you're wanna-be enlightened.
               
               
               And sell that with tag of 1.5$ on franklin right  ?
               
               
               And the point was earlier that he was not enlightened ? Lol You are damn frustrated with my posts that you're making your own stories against others post Mr Mishra
               
               
               
               You do get pissed off in each thread don't you ?

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                  tantrumposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Is this a kind of Virus ??
                  I better get a jab !

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                  mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Want to be enlightened , you are missing the point totally as usual.
                  
                  Your definitions are so childish and foolish and reflects your poor understanding of spirituality.
                  
                  Please read before making such statements about santhara as they are your own definitions, made up nonsense.
                  
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santhara
                  Santhara (also Sallekhana, Santhara, Samadhi-marana, Samnyasa-marana), is the Jain religious ritual of voluntary death by fasting.
                  
                  http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions … ng_1.shtml
                  Santhara - fasting to death
                  
                  Fasting to death
                  
                  Santhara or Sallenkhana is a procedure in which a Jain stops eating with the intention of preparing for death. This is different from suicide as it is not taken in passionate mood of anger, deceit or other emotions, but is undertaken only when the body is no longer capable of serving its owner as a instrument of sprituality and when inevitability of death is a matter of undisputed certainty.
                  
                  The intention is to purify the body, and remove all thought of the physical things from the mind.
                  
                  As well as giving up food and water, the ascetic abandons all desires and dislikes so that they can concentrate exclusively on the spiritual as they approach death.
                  
                  http://www.jainworld.com/jainbooks/imag … S_FAST.htm
                  
                  SANTHARA - A RELIGIOUS FAST TO DEATH
                  When all the purposes of life have been served or when the body becomes unable to serve any purpose, I wish to be able to adapt Santhara, a religious fast to death.
                  
                  http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi … 696175.cms
                  
                  Santhara is the Jain practice of voluntary and systematic fasting to death. Jain texts say it is the ultimate route to attaining moksha and breaking free from the whirlpool of life and death.
                  
                  Look at my hard copy rankings on my profile , hopefully you keep quiet after that,

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            mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I became the Light or god thats how I know god has no beginning or end and is timeless.

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   englightenedsoulposted 13 years ago

   I think santhara is when a person quits everything i.e. food water etc mostly when he thinks he will be dying soon.This is way of asking forgiveness for your wrong karmas.
   P.S.mohit you correct me if I am wrong.It has been 3 years since I have not read about jainism.

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      mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Yes you are correct enlightened soul, love that name, its some one who has a terminal illness or generally old people who believe they have done their part and are now ready to leave.
      
      The start fasting and its takes place over a period of time.Food and water is gradually reduced and prayers are recited by monks.
      
      The person before dying has a glow on his face and leaves with a smile , the whole purpose being to go back home to god, attain enlightenment, moksha which is breaking the cycle of life and death, no more coming back

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    englightenedsoulposted 13 years ago

    Thank you so much mohit for such a detail answer.And Also thanks for the compliments.BTW my real name is Natasha Jain.

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       mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       You know you are welcome Natasha, love true seekers of knowledge.

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    skyfireposted 13 years ago

    Not a deep knowledge but i learn as much as i can. Being Atheist i've learned about various religions and somehow i have managed to get into social psychology. This position offered me a chance to study religion/society which is very hard if i get into one particular religion/or theism as it offers biased views. 
    
    "Aham Brahmasmi-hinduism" or (Your soul is your GOD) as they say is the only way people can get satisfaction in life for most of answers even if those answers may not be rational if we start to scrutinize those thoughts.

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       englightenedsoulposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Skyfire I am really impresed.Anyways I have a question.Does believing in soul as your only god makes you an atheist?

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          skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Atheism rejects god,soul and after-life as it expects empirical proof for it which we can't give for soul & god. With belief in soul, you can be Agnostic but not Atheist. (But both agnosticism/atheism are skeptical positions).

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             englightenedsoulposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             Thank you so much...

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       mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       "Aham Brahmasmi-hinduism" or (Your soul is your GOD)
       
       It means I am god or I am Brahma a realized or awakened or enlightened ones statement.
       
       Bhramin knower of Brahma or enlightened one.
       
       Similar to Shiv ho hum or I am Shiva

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          mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Or Jesus saying I am the Light.

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    Flightkeeperposted 13 years ago

    Hi Jyoti K, I agree that you should write a hub about Jainism.  It sounds like it will be an interesting read and I look forward to it.

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       JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I have written one about Jainism and environment and about some places of travel and pilgrimage.
       
       I will certainly love to write some more.
       Thanks,
       Jyoti Kothari

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       JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Hi,
       I have written one about the concept of universe in Jainism and will love to write more.
       Thanks for encouraging me.

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    WriteAngledposted 13 years ago

    I second this, I also would like to read about Jainism. I would like to find out about Jain philosophy and mysticism. I believe that there is a common element to mysticism of all religions. How were/are mystics viewed in Jainism? Are they seen as rebels, dissenters as they are by so many other religions?

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       JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Hi write angled,
       You are motivating me to write more about jainism. Thanks for inspiration.
       Jyoti Kothari

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       mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       No they are not rebels but they are very disciplined in their practice.

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    euro7655posted 13 years ago

    its not  very soul is  god. it has the potential to  become god by its own efforts and merits by destroying the bad karmas it has gathered over the past.

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       mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Every souls is a fragment of the super soul or god.

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    lyricsingrayposted 13 years ago

    I'm confused again are we in a hub?  Where are the comment sections?  Is there a poll?

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    JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years ago

    As you have not replied with any other argument in your favor. I assume that your questions are resolved.
    
    Thanks,
    Jyoti Kothari

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17. 59

    JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years ago

    Physical sciences in Jainism is already discussed a little in this forum thread and I have posted a hub about concept of Universe in Jainism.
    Now it is time to discuss mathematics in Jainism. Jain texts have a separate category "Ganitanuyoga" alias "Karananuyoga" where Ganita or Karana means mathematics/ calculations.
    
    Jainism describes three types of numbers 1. Numerable e.g. 1,2,3, etc 2. Innumerable, which can not be counted and 3. Infinite, which have no end.
    
    Jain texts have been using all three types of numbers frequently. There are many illustrations to understand these three types of numbers.
    
    Jain texts also frequently use permutation and combination, trigonometry, Geometry and many other forms of modern mathematics.
    
    You can feel free to ask any relevant questions.
    
    Thanks,
    Jyoti Kothari

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       (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this

       What's your point?

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          JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I am trying to bring in light mathematics in Jain texts.

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             (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this

             Mathematics is already clearly defined. What's your point?

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                JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                I am trying to bring context between mathematics and Jainism.

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                   (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                   Mathematics is pure logic. Jainism is a belief system.
                   
                   Nary the two shall meet.

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                      JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      No. I do not agree.
                      
                      Jainism is based on logic and logical interpretation. Mathematics also has many assumptions and imaginations.
                      
                      There are large numbers of mathematical calculations in Jain texts.
                      Thanks,
                      Jyoti Kothari

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                         (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                         No, it is a belief system and does not require evidence to support it's foundations.
                         
                         
                         
                         Really?
                         
                         
                         
                         Yes, they attempt to construct a world assumed to exist and derived from the belief system.
                         
                         For example, in attempting to work out the concept of infinity, one of the main integers is defined as "the number of very tiny white mustard seeds that can be placed in this container."
                         
                         Silly in the extreme.

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       mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Awesome

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    JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years ago

    No. Not at all. There are no silly things. Can you quote any original Jain text to support your quote?

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       (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this

       One of the first sites I encountered had this as it's opening sentence:
       
       "Jainism traces its roots to a succession of 24 Jinas ("those who overcome", or conqueror) in ancient East India. The first Jina is traditionally believed to have been a giant who lived 8.4 million years ago."
       
       Again, silly in the extreme.

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19. 59

    JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years ago

    Have you read any original text? Creating web sites is very easy nowadays and every Tom, Dick and Harry can create a site. It does not necessarily make this site authentic.
    
    Moreover, I do not think that any one who has faith on any religion can write a word like "giant" for a person whom he or she respect.
    
    I believe, you will read original texts before posting any thing against any religion. This is rational.

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       (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this

       And, you are the arbiter of what is authentic and what is not?
       
       
       
       What isn't rational is trying to compare the logic of mathematics with a supernatural belief system.

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          JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          No I am not. But original texts are treated authentic and not those written by any Tom, Dick and Harry.
          
          Jainism is not a supernatural belief system and I am bringing this to the forum.
          
          It will be better for a person to read the original text before arbitrarily put comments or criticize.
          
          Thanks,
          Jyoti Kothari

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             (Q)posted 13 years agoin reply to this

             Who decides who is Tom, Dick and Harry?
             
             
             
             Please feel free to do so but you won't find agreement especially when the texts make claims to souls, karma, creationism, demigods, etc.
             
             
             
             It might be better if you applied a little critical thinking to your claims.

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          mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          This universe is build on mathematics. Who or what designed this maths, certainly not man, he is just uncovering these las of the universe.
          
          One of the greatest mathematicians  Srinivasa Ramanujans aid he got his formulas from his family goddess, divine revelation.

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20. 59

    JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years ago

    Soul is not the subject area of modern sciences and it does not deal with it.
    
    However, mathematics is a subject of modern science and Jainism deals with it efficiently. Hence, Jainism deals in subjects which modern sciences also deal with. Moreover, it deals with subjects modern sciences do not touch.
    
    I have not talked about soul or anything which is subject of "faith" for believers but talked about rational things in this forum. It is not fair to bring irrelevant things in the thread to just disprove some thing by hook or crook.
    
    I appreciate any relevant criticism related to Jain mathematics.
    Thanks,
    Jyoti Kothari

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21. 59

    SiddSinghposted 13 years ago

    Why should everything be REVEALED by someone or something?
    
    There is something called 'human brain' which is very capable of thinking, reasoning and straightening out things for itself.

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       paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Hi friend SiddSingh
       
       No I did not mean that.
       
       Revelation is also a truthful source of knowledge. Who could know more than the Creator-God Allah YHWH who created everything in the Universe? He knows its ins and outs thoroughly; and if He informs something to a truthful persons; nothing could match it.
       
       Thanks
       
       I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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          JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          It is irrelevant to this thread. Jainism does not believe in a creator God.
          
          The universe is timeless and eternal according to Jainism. This thread is created to talk about Jainism and modern sciences.
          
          Please be with in the topic. If you want to spread your words you can feel free to start another forum thread. I will be glad to view and write in that thread.
          
          Thanks,
          Jyoti Kothari

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             Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             Unfortunately, modern science does not agree with Jainism in that regard.

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                JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Modern sciences are not fully but partially agreed with Jainism in this regard. Modern sciences believe in an universe which consists of matter and / or energy and these are eternal. In this sense the universe is timeless and eternal.
                
                However, there is a controversial theory (Rather hypothesis) of Big bang (Which is yet to be tested) that supports an idea of creation of an universe.
                
                Thanks,
                Jyoti Kothari

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                   Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                   Are you saying that matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed or are you talking about the conservation of energy? Science does not say anything about matter/energy being "eternal."
                   
                   Time is woven into the fabric of space as can be seen in Reimann's metric tensors often used in relativity. Time is relevant to velocity and gravity in that it dilates from various reference frames. Time stands still at the speed of light and in the center of a singularity.
                   
                   The universe is certainly not timeless.
                   
                   
                   
                   The Big Bang theory is far from controversial, it is accepted theory and has hard evidence to support it.
                   
                   It seems Jainism really has no clue in this regard.

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                      paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      Hi friend Beelzedad
                      
                      I think it is the first thing I have agreed with you. Matter and energy are not eternal.
                      
                      Matter and energy are also created by the Creator- Gdd Allah YHWH.
                      
                      Quran is not a text book of science; but it has also hinted clearly of a phenomenon similiar to Black hole and the Big Bang.
                      
                      Thanks
                      
                      I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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                         Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                         What do you base your agreement on, surely not anything substantial or relevant?
                         
                         
                         
                         No, it looks like we don't agree at all.
                         
                         
                         
                         That is a lie.

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                      JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      1. I am saying about conservation of energy. Jainism has clearly spelled about it. All forms of energy are depicted as form of matter as modern science normally speaks of matter as form of energy.
                      Both are agreed in this point.
                      
                      2. Jainism also speaks about both relative and absolute time. When I have said about timeless universe I meant to say that it is beginning-less and endless. It changes its form only according to Jainism.
                      
                      If you deep dig the theories of modern sciences you can find that energy prevails all the times and universe was there in the form of raw energy before it has taken the shape.
                      Energy (matter) can not be created nor destroyed. Both Jainism and modern sciences are agreed in this point.
                      
                      Jainism does not believe in a creator God.
                      Thanks,
                      Jyoti Kothari

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                         Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                         You are fabricating that, Jainism does not say anything about conservation of energy.
                         
                         
                         
                         Sorry, but that's not anything that science says about time. You are sadly mistaken.
                         
                         
                         
                         You are lying or you are very ignorant. Jainism does not say the same thing as science. And, it is you who should actually do some digging into the basic fundamentals of science, which you clearly know very little about.
                         
                         

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                            JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                            Hi,
                            It will be better if you read some original text from Jainism. I have not fabricated anything and accusing arbitrarily is not good.
                            
                            1.  Jainism refer both matter and energy as "Pudgal" which changes its form but never destroyed. You can find references at Navatatva Prakarana and Tatvarthadhigam Sutra.
                            
                            2. Albert Einstein has clearly spoke about relative and absolute time in his Theory of relativity. moreover, classical definition of time is absolute time (newton and others).
                            Please provide some hard data or references in favor of your arguments.
                            
                            3. Jainism does not say the same thing about universe as it does not support the big bang theory. However, it is partially agree with modern sciences. You are suggested to read the hub about Jainism and concept of universe.
                            
                            It is not the fair way to say "You are lying".
                            
                            I believe you will look in to the matter and come out with truth.
                            Thanks,
                            
                            Jyoti Kothari

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                               Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                               Then, it can only be concluded that you are a fundamental zealot of this religion as well as not knowing much about science and are simply ignorant and deluded.
                               
                               Therefore, I apologize for saying you are lying.
                               
                               
                               
                               You actually can make that request with a straight face? LOL.

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       mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       The human mind is limited.

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          Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          I prefer to believe the human mind is unlimited. Is it not a good thing to embrace this belief?

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             mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             Intelligence understands its limitations.

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                paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                I agree with you.
                
                Thanks

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       JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I agree with you. Human brain is capable of doing such things and we can opt to do so.

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22. 59

    dfagerposted 13 years ago

    I'm not sure that the human mind can be unlimited at the most immediate present time.  At any given moment, it would seem that the human mind is most definitely limited.
    
    I admit I don't know anything about Janism so be patient if my questions are stupid.
    
    What is an example of something that is impermanent?  Doesn't everything physical and energy just change forms?  Even if it decays? I would also imagine that there must have been something before the big bang and something just before, before the big bang.  The problem with dismissing the big bang theory is that it would make other scientific discoveries wrong too - Wouldn't it invalidate string theory, not that I know much on that.

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       mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Science admits this  flaw, they look at things from the beginning of the Big bang and not before that.

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       JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Hi,
       Human mind is limited in normal circumstances but it can raise its potential through several spiritual means.
       
       While Jainism refers to impermanence it refers to change. i agree with you.
       
       Jainism agrees with the theory of law of conservation of mass and energy. However, it does not agree with the big bang theory.
       
       There are differences as well as similarities between Jainism and modern sciences and I am trying to point those out for a comparative study.
       
       Thanks for sharing,
       Jyoti Kothari

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          Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          That is entirely untrue. You have only reinterpreted religious dogma to suit your agenda.
          
          
          
          All you're doing is misrepresenting an ancient religion that hasn't any similarities whatsoever to modern science.

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             JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             Hi,
             I am not misinterpreting Jainism. Modern science has many similarities (of course, dissimilarities too)with Jainism. I want to bridge the gap between the two.
             
             It is better to study both with unbiased mind and enrich the forum thread.
             
             Thanks,
             Jyoti Kothari

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          paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Hi friends
          
          Who was the founder of Jainism? Please.
          
          Thanks
          
          I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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23. 51

    paarsurreyposted 13 years ago

    Santhara - fasting to death
    
    Fasting to death
    
    Hi friends
    
    Fasting to death is condemnable; it is not from the Creator-God Allah YHWH; one cannot get born on one's own will; so one cannot decide for having death on one's own; it is an immoral act through and through.
    
    Thanks
    
    I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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       mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Its a higher philosophy paarsurrey ,contemplate on it.

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          paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Please elaborate with claims and reasons from the original sources of their founder; if there is any.
          
          Thanks

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             mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             Think, contemplate on it.

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                paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                I get no idea of it being reasonable; it seems to me a distorted thinking; I gave an argument about it.
                
                Thanks

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                   mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                   You are not in the persons place.

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    ranullposted 13 years ago

    wel, i've been noticing Jainis lately, they are desperate to prove that their belief is "UNIQUE" one of a kind, got nothing to do with hinduism and ofcourse , scientific and rational ... [very much like islamist ]
    
    futile!!

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25. 59

    JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years ago

    Jainism is based on facts. It does not say to believe without understanding. It discourages blind following.
    
    The Lord has said that one has to believe after examining the truth.
    
    This is most scientific method of identifying.
    
    Thanks,
    Jyoti Kothari

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       Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Yet, there are facts of science that show Jainism to be wrong.  Perhaps, I can offer you a definition for the word, 'fact'?

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          mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          They did have a highly advanced science ,its a fact.

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          lucky1981posted 13 years agoin reply to this

          ok show me just a few of them and we can discuss

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             mohitmisraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             http://www.jainworld.com/jainbooks/asceticism/ch26.asp

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             Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             I already have. Read the thread.

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26. 59

    JYOTI KOTHARIposted 13 years ago

    I have found an interesting forum about Jainism which may be followed:
    http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/42808

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