A Note To Christians

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   Sam Tatumposted 14 years ago

   I am a humble man and I try to do things with love. My point today is to address the Christians that debate with Atheists about the authenticity of God, Christ and religion as a whole. STOP DEBATING. Atheists are correct when they accuse us of not having all of the answers. That's a biblical fact. "Blessed are those who have seen and believe. More blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." That is why we have faith. Without it we cannot please God. We know that there have been many to kill saying that they did it in the name of God. A perfectly good point is to blame white people today for slavery. They had nothing to do with it. Instead, they helped to elect America's first African American president. We know the bible tells us that all those that use the name of the lord will not be saved. And, even many of those that have done many good things in the name of the lord will not be saved. God did not mess up the world and religion, men did. I recently tried to find common ground with a very intelligent atheist because I appreciated his thoughtful ideas. I heard him out and appreciated what he had to say and why he felt the way he did. But, when I shared with him, he cussed me out and belittled me. I apologized to him for wasting his time. There are many ways to approach a belief in God. In the writings of Josephus we learn that Abraham was an extremely intelligent man. And, being born and raised in a society of pagan gods and being taught their ways, Abraham was smart enough to deduce that there was only one God behind everything. It was at that point that God singled him out and separated him from all of those warped beliefs in Mesopotamia. A modern example of Abraham was Einstein who said that the more he searched for the truth the more he realized that there is a God behind all of this. His ideas are covered in the theories of relativity and there is another theory a universal causality. Universal Causality is still debated today because some scientist have closed their minds to the idea that God is at the heart of things and are busy trying to angle Him out. I was cussed out for trying to civily discuss these items. I was told that Universal Causality was a figment of my imagination (in so many words). If anyone is interested, it can be easily found on the internet. Anyway, Christians, have your belief. We do Christ an injustice and trample His name underfoot when debating with non believers. The bible compares it to throwing pearls before swine who tramples the pearls and turns on the gift giver. But, we are instructed, that if we are rejected then to shake the dust from our feet and leave that place in peace. God didn't give us all of the answers. That's what got Adam in trouble; trying to have all of the answers. That's why men debate, because they think they have all of the answers. We walk in faith.

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      mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Describing spirit into words is very difficult.The Buddha answered nature is  my witness when asked for proof of his enlightenment.
      One need to find god within.

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      (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Please don't confuse the sick and deranged mind of the mythical Abraham with Einstein, they couldn't have been more further apart on their ideals and beliefs.
      
      
      
      There is no connection between Einstein and universal causality.
      
      
      
      So, now scientists have a closed mind?
      
      
      
      And rightly so, as you made ridiculous insulting comments. Clearly, you were anything but civil.
      
      
      
      Sounds about right.
      
      
      
      You continue to insult.
      
      
      
      So, you follow the bible and spread hatred.
      
      
      
      With no answers and a pocket full of hatred.

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         Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         So you don't see yourself as insulting, arrogant and spreading hatred?

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            Sam Tatumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            There are those that I have obviously offended. I apologize for that was not my intent. Actually, I have found that both Christians and Atheists all make valid points. But, if we could search together for validity in points, I think that would be much more progressive. We should'nt be enemies.

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            (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this

            You're free to demonstrate that, if you can. But, now that you've shown the interest, I'll make sure to point out each time YOU are insulting, arrogant and spread hatred. Thanks.

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      Brenda Durhamposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I agree with part of this.
      Not all of it.
      I believe each Christian has to make their own decisions about how/when/where/why/and with whom they discuss or debate.
      Yes, one of those decisions is deciding between when we're fulfilling the Great Commission and/or edifying ourselves or anyone....and....casting pearls, as you said.
      
      Another very important decision is whether or not to take the advice/judgment of other Believers as to our own personal ministry or talk we engage in.    There are many instances where perseverance is a good thing, though it may not seem like it at the time.
      
      ...I was saved, actually, because my brother-in-law (a minister) kept preachin' to me that I was a lost soul in need of the Savior!   His words to me became an irritation, and I felt he was judging me unnecessarily, because I was young and hadn't actually done anything "wrong" that I knew of!   I even slacked-off going to church some because of his persistence.   But ya know what?----years later, I recalled how it all happened, and could see the hand of God in my life, and his persistence was an important part of that.
      
      Now, I'm not one who believes it every time someone says "And God said" or "God told me to say/do so-and-so",  but honestly I think we need to leave it up to our fellow Christians as to what discussions/even arguments they engage in.   It may actually do God a disservice when we try to tell each other HOW to spread the Word!   We're all "preachers" to some degree, whether we stand in a pulpit or not.   And the Bible tells us to each "work out our own Salvation".   Part of that Salvation is a deep abiding fervency;  we simply are compelled, as well as Commanded, to speak about Christ and His message, which includes not only His Love, but his Judgment upon all who refuse His Love....

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         Unchained Graceposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Jeremiah 23 is the chapter which comes to the forefront when I hear "God told me to tell you. . ." Those who purport to prophesy in His name shall reap their reward though not from us.
         
         While we are all "preachers" to some extent, we are held to a higher level of responsibility when reiterating God's Word. We gotta lose the emotional and personal need to be right all the time. The discussion ain't about you and them. It is about what the presence of God in their life can do for them and when they see a self-proclaimed "Christian" snapping like a pitbull, we are doing Satan's work for him.

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         Sam Tatumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I agree with you so much. Sometimes, persistence is golden. But, as I have read some very negative sentiments to what I have said, I will not respond. But, you are absolutely correct, the situation determines the method.

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            (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this

            When you write negativity, shouldn't you expect to receive it in kind?

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               Sam Tatumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               For the things I wrote that offended, I deeply apologize. I just simply wish that we could all learn from each other and come to common ground.

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                  tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  I understand what you say, but how could we come to common grounds, you believing, and us not believing at all ?

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                     Sam Tatumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Thank you. I truly do not wish to offend anyone. But, it seems inevitable when religeon and politics are talked about, there will be a lot of sensitivity. But, many people have much to say that help. I don't claim to be the smartest guy in the world. I don't look to push my beliefs on someone else. But, since this is a forum where we write and comment, instead of arguing, please, let's help with corrective information in a civil manner. If I am off based, it's not an attempt to belittle. Or, if we disagree, let's talk about it without putting each other down. If I offend you, tell me and I'll correct that. But, I think there is much to be gained here if we're willing to have open sharing and not battles over words. Some of the guys that are offended by me could probably be some great contacts in business, writing and so on. So we don't have the same beliefs. We are still a community that can, if all else fails, agree to disagree.

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                        sooner than laterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        You are not off base. You are actually refreshingly mellow. I applaud your temperment. I do warn you that many will try to bring you out of this mentality, and if you hold tight to your fair behavior be prepared for anything.

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      sooner than laterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I happen to agree with all of this. People all around the US and the world are aware of God at this point. I can say that debating His authentisity has negative results and atheists are more aware on how to insult or accuse then ever before in history. The word is "He who has an ear let him hear".

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         Unchained Graceposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Well said. Point being, the negativity is the enemy's weapon for redirection and subsequent division among God's People IF
         they allow it. To allow it simply means to encourage it through the escalation of verbal warfare on a topic which was never open for debate in the first place.

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            Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Atheists are your enemy huh?
            
            Bet you both wish for the good old days of burning us at the stake. What a pity that we are allowed to speak up now. Not too long ago an atheist was almost unheard of huh?
            
            Awww. Too bad. Perhaps if you guys had behaved in such a fashion as to persuade us there was a god?
            
            No?  God's people? Some are and some aren't. See - instant division and conflict.
            
            But your ears are not able to hear that are they? They are full of The Word.

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               Unchained Graceposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               The enemy I speak of is Satan. I see no point in disparaging comments directed towards some else's belief system. They're pointless and non-productive. So, when you or anyone else hear me refer to "The enemy" it is Satan.

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                  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Well - the person you were agreeing with specifically mentioned atheists. Did you even read what you agreed with?

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                     Unchained Graceposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     My point with that reply was to make sure that people understand that I have no interest in trouncing atheists
                     or any other belief system. It may be I inadvertently cued up the wrong statement and replied to it. For the record, it has never gotten me anywhere to be critical of someone else's faith, whatever it may be.

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                     sooner than laterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     just a missunderstanding I am sure.

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                        Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        Quite right. On his part. You seem to delight in attacking anyone who does not share your beliefs. Do you think you will persuade people to join your cult by doing that?
                        
                        Because it doesn't seem to be working. Quite the opposite actually. I have had many people write to me and thank me for opening their eyes to the truth that there is no god - a lot of it based on them watching the interaction between me and people such as yourself.
                        
                        Three have mentioned you in particular and I certainly appreciate the reminder and validation - so thanks.

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                           sooner than laterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           You will find I do not revert to name calling and personal attacks. People of your faith applaud you for those things I am sure. I have remained very true to the topics and issues that we have discussed. I do feel you take deep almost obsessive interest in subjects that you do not agree with, and I also feel that you have some deep anger issues as well. I have seen many reach out to be civil with you at wich point you drive the icy knife home. I pray for you and those you discourage.

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                              Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              You can pray for whomever you like. Thank you for once again validating my lack of belief in a deity.
                              
                              "drive the icy knife home?" by that I suppose you mean "reject the idea that I am going to suffer eternal torment for not believing the stuff you believe." But - I see you are doing the whole martyr thing again.  What is that all about? I have heard many say that religionists are never truly happy unless they manage to bait some one into attacking them and thereby validate their belief that "everyone is out to get them."
                              
                              This is called a "passive aggressive attack." And it is still an attack, albeit less direct.

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                                 Unchained Graceposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                 Speaking solely for myself, I never held the belief or position that "everyone is out to get me." Personally, I have no interest in baiting you nor anyone else. Wasted time. Wasted effort. A "passive aggressive" approach is one of the oldest interrogation and interview techniques out there and if one cannot recognize it for what it is, then one needs to sit back and observe. Watch what unfolds.

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                                 sooner than laterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                 justify your peace talks however you want.
                                 by "drive the icy knife home" I mean those cases where people couldn't understand your childish ways but still offered a peaceful discussion non the less. At which point you continue to insult them and leave cheeky replies with those applauding your infantile behaviour.

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                                    earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                    No, what is infantile is believing a book which is the most re-written pile of hate and loathing in the world today. Stone age thinking.

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                                    Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                    As I said - passive aggressive attacks of this nature are still attacks. Not sure how that is condusive to a "peaceful discussion," but I imagine you are merely trying to provoke me.
                                    
                                    How very christian of you.

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                                       sooner than laterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       No, just talking about the issue at hand again. I don't know why you are trying to disect intent other than it is another spin tactic.

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                                          Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                          Infantile behavior?
                                          Cheeky replies?
                                          Insult them?
                                          
                                          Could it be that you are not even aware of what you are saying? I don't know. I guess anything is possible. As you do not seem to see that accusing me of insulting people and infantile behavior is an attack?
                                          
                                          So - I forgive you for attacking me. Please do not do it again. Thank you.

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                                       Unchained Graceposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       Actually, it has a lot more to do with personal discipline than it does with any given faith or lack thereof. Locating and identifying a particul approach allows one to then identify their options, if any.

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                                       sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                       I bet if you stopped coming to the religious threads there would be peaceful discussion. No...wait... and Earnest and Tantrum and Dogsidaed and... well you know your peeps.

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                                          tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                          Are you calling me ?

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                                          Unchained Graceposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                          Reread the quotes. The statements. Who has been the antagonist and negative instigator from the beginning? Who has been purposely maligning others just to get attention?

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                                          Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                          Well - you would think so wouldn't you?
                                          
                                          It is rather hard to ignore all the arguments between the various factions though. I know quite a few believers who have been driven away by other more aggressive believers and atheists are just the latest in a long, long, long line of groups that will clash with the christian faith. Haven't you read your book? There is no room for compromise.

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                                             Unchained Graceposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                             Look back, though, at the source of each argument and the manner in which it quickly breaks down into personal attacks as opposed to sticking with the issue(s) Locate, identify and neutralize the source. It's that simple.

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                                                earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                                What exactly do you mean by that?

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                                                Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                                I have identified the source - An irrational belief in an invisible super being that needs to be "defended" at all costs. 

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                                                   h.a.borcichposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                                   Unchained agreed to diasagree (atleast twice in this thread) and was very nice about it - no name calling or baiting or anything rude. I see how rational of a response he got back.

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                                                      Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                                      Do you not see that this is the source? Just because you do not like the answer, that does not make it wrong or irrational or anything else.
                                                      
                                                      There is no room for compromise in your religion. Have you even read the bible?
                                                      
                                                      I was not baiting or name calling. I was just telling the truth as I see it.

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                           sooner than laterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           full agression responce to a modest reply? I don't care and won't act wounded. I think it is important to realize where we come from.

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                        Unchained Graceposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        These things happen. However it is why I was all over it quick to make sure my position was understood. Confusion and disruption based upon a s statement which was never cleared up makes for what did Led Zeppelin call it? Communication Breakdown.

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                  earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  OK the enemyis a figment of your imagination or are we supposed to just believe the codswollop about another fairy made by the "good god" fairy without question right?

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                     Unchained Graceposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     It is apparent that you are attempting to initiate a pointless argument. Only someone who wasn't versed in that reverse technique deserves to get sidelined into some adolescent hissy fit which has no relevance to the initial topic of this forum.

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                        earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        Why don't you address the argument that "satan' is a belief that has no support outside the bible and is a religious cop out?

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                           Unchained Graceposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           The Bible is solely based on faith. Hebrews 11:1. The faith that A) God in fact exists B)If you believe in one, than it should follow you must believe in the other. If, in fact you chose to believe in neither, than that is your choice.

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                              earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              Yet your words assume that right away!

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                                 Unchained Graceposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                 What assumption do you speak of. The basis for my statement is simple. Believe what you will. I believe what I will. I have no issue with your beliefs. I'll state mine for the record. A statement which includes an antagonistic inflection just serves to instigate division. Look, we all might as well realize nothing will ever be resolved here, so what's the real point, anyway?

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                           sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           Most people don't regard Satan as a visible entity with horns and a pitch fork but do regard it as an unseen force that moves to enslave people against their will by unknowingly submitting to the 'invisible hand' similar to the way the invisible hand of economics works.

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      nikki1posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Wow, thats deep

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      thevoiceposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      God also taught of human care holy human freedom of choice for all human birth right to God is by free choice this stops all need for hate degrading killing war hate

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      aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Sam, this was well said and I agree, but I also agree with Brenda Durham in that we are sometimes called to persist, indeed the persistent prayer achieves much.
      
      What IS interesting though is that having read this thread, the atheists who try to disrupt any Christian thread, have been thwarted because in the main the believers have NOT risen to the bait.
      
      This taught me something, being that the SPIRIT of this thread was PEACE and LIGHT and not meant to be agressive or start contention.
      
      I thank you for that lesson, for I have been aggressive and contentious with some of the atheists in the past, and will try to curb that spirit for the future, concentrating on the fruits of the spirit rather than the flesh.
      
      After all, If we move in the spirit of God, their words are powerless.
      
      Galatians 5:22-23
      
      But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

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         The Paulposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Of course you have, it's just that all your insults have been snide and underhanded, like the bit I'm quoting.

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            aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Sorry friend, this bunny is not playing.... with you!
            
            

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               The Paulposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               See, there you go again.  You are "playing," no questions there.  What I can't figure out is whether you've actually convinced yourself that you're not, or you just think you're going to convince me.
               
               The difference between atheists and theists and their relative aggressiveness or derision isn't that theists are calm and placed while atheists are aggressive and cruel.
               
               The difference is that atheists are honest and theists are not.
               
               When I think someone is being foolish I say so.  I tell people when they wrong, that their ideas are self-evidently harmful.  I call out liars when I detect their lies.
               
               It seems that when theists think someone is being foolish rather than confront that person they sometimes prefer pat each other on the back and talk about how kind and agreeable they are in relation to that person.
               
               Again, the unclear part is whether you think you can fool others because you've fooled yourselves or because you think everyone else has suffered some kind of brain damage.

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      greeneyesH1982posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      VERY nicely put!!! i am extremely impressed and this is probably one of the best posts I have seen on here yet!
      
      amen brother

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      JeanMLBourrierposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Yes I would have to agree.  Very well said.  There is no point in debating anything really when it comes to something that is based on personal faith.  God is not something we can prove just like we can't explain love in it's entirety or from a complete scientific point of view.  When dealing with things that are natured in FAITH there is no need to debate, there is only a need to believe and have faith and that is a very personal choice for everyone and has nothing to do with answers or proof or dominating all the answers to life!  Thanks for the write up.  Good job!  I just joined hubpages and came across this post. 

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   Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years ago

   @ sam
   
   Very nicely said. I disagree with the giving up part though. I understand that most people when faced with someone that disagrees with something they hold as a truth will respond with anger and in your words 'cussing one out'. I agree with your stance on how Christians are suppose to respond to that reaction, shake the dust off your feet and leave that place with love. Nice. For the record I'm not a Christian, but I do believe profoundly in God.
   
   The fact that most Atheists return again and again to the religious forum here, to me bespeaks of a person/people searching for something. I believe they are looking for proof one way or the other. The type of proof they want isn't there, so they become angry with those that have found and have accepted a different kind of proof. Proof in the emotional area, the gut feeling, that to us speaks volumes... For them our 'proof' is just silly. They have decided that unless a very specific form of proof is presented they will refuse to believe. I think they are trying to force God to jump through thier hoops, but that is merely my opinion.
   
   Peace and Love

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      Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Now now - stop projecting.
      
      Actually - I have a truth I am trying to share with you, but you do not want to listen.
      
      Nice that your belief is "profound," though. Not normal or anything. I love it when you guys try and make your belief more than it is by using semantics. It validates my non belief every time. You are right about one thing though. Your "proof" is silly. We can agree on that. Just accept that you have a blind belief instead of trying to validate it.
      
      Never really understood that. The OP said it quite clearly - and you agreed with him. Now you are trying to justify it and pretend it is something else. Why is that?

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         sooner than laterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         agressive.

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      Unchained Graceposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Much has been said about alleged Christians who "snap off" at the drop off a hat when confronted. Oftentimes, I am confronted myself by individuals who, as it turns out, were incorrectly advised by another and have become confused and frustrated. Yes, they do want answers, but what they've ended up with thus far have been "bumpersticker" platitudes and cheap euphemisms often by church leadership who have chosen to dismiss this person with lowgrade oneliners.
      
      When one comes to learn or to even try to understand the faith of another, why blow them out of the water with attitude and arrogance? You've defeated yourself and added one more reason why people steer clear as opposed to seeking. They're tired of getting their head bitten off by "God's People."

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      khawfashposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Well said.

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         earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         No, ridiculous and self evidently so! Who starts all the threads?

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   DogSiDaedposted 14 years ago

   Einstein himself said he did not believe in a personal god:
   
   'A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man.'
   
   'I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.'
   
   'I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings.'

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      Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      These Scientists did believe in God. They are all More intelligent then we have ever thought to be:
      Max Planck-Physics, Quantum theory
      William Thomson Kelvin-Modern Physics
      Gregor Mendel-Genetics
      Michael Faraday-Electricity, Magnetism
      Robert Boyle-Gases, Chemistry
      Isaac Newton-Mathematics, Mechanics, Optics, Chemistry. He saw numbers as involved in understanding God's plan for history from the Bible the same as the Kabbalists do. . He did considerable work on biblical numerology.
      Galileo Galilei-Solar System, Dynamics.
      Johannes Kepler-Mathematician, astronomer, Light, Laws of planetary motion.
      Sir Francis Bacon-Philosopher, Scientific method of inquiry
      Nicholas Copernicus-Astronomer, Planetary motion
      Rene Descartes-Mathematician, Scientist and Philosopher
      Albert Einstein-Time, gravity, conversion of matter to energy. Though he never believed in a personal God, he recognized the impossibility of a non-created universe. The Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists."

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         sandra rinckposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Darwin also denied atheism though his friend supposed that atheism was a better sentiment than agnosticism.  Darwin refused that sentiment but later, modern atheist assume anything and everything is void of God and intend to reconstruct the works they left behind to support their arguments.  I think they believe that if the rewrite history to reflect their sentiments, then suddenly the world would be a better place. 
         
         Though I personally believe that I have more rights then I otherwise would have, had it not been for Christianity.  My opinion of course.

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         (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Why is that believers feel the need to lie about this issue, clearly fabricating things to support their beliefs? How utterly sad.

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            Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            It is vital that they defend their faith - and for the first time in recorded history, they are on the defensive. No longer is there an "assumption," of a god and it is just a matter of killing those who do not believe in the same god you do. Now they are having to justify their beliefs and are being found wanting.
            
            I have heard everything from "Darwin believed in god" to "If you cannot disprove it - it must be true."
            
            And lying is perfectly acceptable in the eyes of the Lord it seems.
            
            I don't care whether Darwin believed in god or not. I am quite capable of making my own mind up and the "well - every one else believes so you should too," argument only works on limited minds.

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   Wayne Orvisburgposted 14 years ago

   It should not be a debate or heated discussion. Just show the love and kindness we are supposed to, and let the big man work it out. Never give up though.

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      Eaglekiwiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Mankind will always debate ,but God will have the last word and hey for those who dont believe there is a god , then men will always debate...and debate

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   AdeleCosgroveBrayposted 14 years ago

   So long as people insist that their own beliefs are the only 'correct' ones, friction will occur within any debate - as they have done so throughout recorded history.

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   The Paulposted 14 years ago

   If you want to put a message of general love and harmony out there, and have it be received as such, you'd be well advised to keep the "Nyah, nyah I'm right and you're wrong." out of it.

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      Unchained Graceposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      When one side seeks tangible proof and the other is based on faith of things not seen, the one thing we all need to realize is that there are no winners or losers in a debate which should never have taken place in the first place. It is what it is.

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   Brenda Durhamposted 14 years ago

   I will add--
   We're in a spiritual/Spiritual battle for the souls of mankind.
   The Lord has done His part in defeating Satan at the Cross and Tomb.  Yet if there were no more work to be done...or for US to do....He wouldn't have told us to go into the world and preach His word.
   If we Believers don't fight (not necessarily AGAINST unbelievers,  but FOR their souls,  WHO WILL??  I ask you.
   And I will ask you---what is it that even illustrates the urgency of "saving souls"?   ==It's the facts of the Bible about Life and Death, Heaven and Hell, Grace and Judgment.    The Word also says when we're persecuted for the sake of the Gospel, we should rejoice. 
   It's not easy being hated for speaking the Truth.  But indeed that's often the Cross that Christians bear.

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   Brenda Durhamposted 14 years ago

   Sometimes, yes.
   But others, no.
   There again is where we need to not judge our fellow Christians so much.....
   
   Jesus wasn't politically-correct much of the time, nor was he always gentle with His message.
   We're not Jesus.  But we are His imitators!

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      Unchained Graceposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      It's not a matter of judgement as it is more a defined need to protect the uninformed lamb from the wolf in the pulpit sometimes. Spiritual warfare is no joke and Jesus by no means put it out lightly when the opposite was needed.
      
      To put it bluntly, if a pastor is directly responsible for the confusion, frustration and ultimate division and scattering of the flock, it's going to fall on somebody called by God to gather that flock, heal the wounded and count it all jow in the process. If you are a direct witness to the deliberate attempt to misdirect or mislead the flock, it's not a judgement call. It's time for an allout rescue operation and let God deal with those responsible. He hits a lot harder than we can.

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   Brenda Durhamposted 14 years ago

   I would much rather make someone mad as hell, than to omit the Truth.

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      Unchained Graceposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      It's all in the approach. Shoving your version of the truth or God's Word down their throat at a time when a diffent approach is warranted serves to only be counter productive. One can include the truth though but in a way as to not alienate the listener. What have you got then? Someone who is pissed off, aggrevated and shut down. A self-defeating technique.

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    Don Wposted 14 years ago

    A note to you Sam with absolutely no offence intended. Paragraphs are our friends They break the text up so ideas can be conveyed in a structured way that helps the reader take them in. So just saying . . .

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       aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       As an old typesetter I will agree!

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       Eaglekiwiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       ahem yes that would work.

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    Brenda Durhamposted 14 years ago

    I agree.
    There are many false teachers in the pulpits.
    And many who could use instruction themselves...if their egos didn't get in the way so much.

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    sooner than laterposted 14 years ago

    "Your "proof" is silly"
    
    agressive.

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       Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       More "honest," I would think.
       
       The Truth Hurts.

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          sooner than laterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          uh huh. Well the OP is a humble person. I apreciate that.

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    Unchained Graceposted 14 years ago

    Folks, guess what? I'm bored. This is pointless. It's going nowhere. Later.

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    sooner than laterposted 14 years ago

    "Atheists are your enemy huh?
    
    Bet you both wish for the good old days of burning us at the stake. What a pity that we are allowed to speak up now. Not too long ago an atheist was almost unheard of huh?
    
    Awww. Too bad. Perhaps if you guys had behaved in such a fashion as to persuade us there was a god?
    
    No?  God's people? Some are and some aren't. See - instant division and conflict.
    
    But your ears are not able to hear that are they? They are full of The Word."
    
    playing the part of the wouned puppy, yet 'passive agressive' and assumptive.

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    Will Bensonposted 14 years ago

    Sam Tatum Wrote:
    
    "I am a humble man and I try to do things with love. My point today is to address the Christians that debate with Atheists about the authenticity of God, Christ and religion as a whole. STOP DEBATING. Atheists are correct when they accuse us of not having all of the answers..."
    
    Sam -
    
    I've seen how many threads end up with a God vs. Atheism debate (sometimes very heated) so it's refreshing to see someone who can see both sides. You have a great attitude and I believe people like you can be a positive influence in the world.
    
    Respectfully, Will

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    Timothy Donnellyposted 14 years ago

    Sam Tatum, I saw this forum on my HubPages sign-out page, and I had to have a quick look. In my estimation, this thread will at least double. I really never joined HubPages to debate on forums, but it is occasionally intriguing to do so. Frankly, I can’t spend all my time debating and arguing with people of little or no faith, so here is a great link from The Institute for Creation Research, and the Thesis/Article entitled “The Scientific Case Against Evolution”. You see, most atheists believe in the THEORY of Evolution, and while they do so, they IGNORE the physical LAW of Entropy. So there you go. Check out this interesting read at:
    http://www.icr.org/home/resources/resou … evolution/

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       earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Yet another source from a religionists site!
       
       Thomas Paine: "Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon that the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel."
       Please explain why the bible is referred to as the "good book".

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          Timothy Donnellyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Ok, I almost have to go out, but I'll give it a whirl.
          The true God of the Bible exerts His Divine Judgement on those who either enslave and kill His people (His people being those who try to follow His commandments), or those who, knowing better oppose His Laws.
          
          Each person has been given Free Agency to choose whether they want to believe His teachings (physical Word)and His promptings of conscience (Spiritual Word).
          If you can't see past the horror of blatant enmity and disregard (blasphemy), and the resultant consequences that follow, then you haven't given place for the good seed to grow in your heart and mind. Consider this scripture (and don't argue with my belief, just take it or leave it, please):
          
          Alma 32: 28 “Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.”
          
          Please note that I am not trying to be offensive, towards your intelligence or your person, only provide you with additional information to THOUGHTFULLY (and maybe even prayerfully) consider. Bye!

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    sooner than laterposted 14 years ago

    what do you get so upset about earnest. You have your books, we have ours. I suggest the validity argument is getting redundant. It could easily be argued that evolutionary science has a non-God agenda. Wait... it does.

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       earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       I look upset to you? The old mirror again sooner, you are reflecting on yourself.

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    ddsurfscaposted 14 years ago

    It is not up to us as Christians to prove anything to anybody.  We know what we know in our hearts because God showed us, as individuals what He knew would ring true and touch our souls.
      Only He knows how to touch the heart of each man, and so it is only up to us to give the person the opportunity to want to know God, and the rest is up to God Himself.  I know that if I had not seen the miracles that I saw I would not be a believer today.  Do our job as Christians, and live our christian life, and let God do His

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       The Paulposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       And if they stopped trying these arguments wouldn't take place!
       
       But that's not how religions get spread.  Its not how Christianity, as a collective, behaves today or did behave in the past.

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          aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Article 19
          
          Universal Declaration of Human Rights (United Nations)
          
          Article 19.
          
          Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
          
          Thank you for respecting the UN Charter.

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             The Paulposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             This follows a pretty common pattern.  Theists, backed into a corner and confronted with the fact they can not logically, evidentially support the existence of their god, switch tactics.  They claim their god is something that somehow transcends logic and evidence, that it calls people to it, and that it can't be explained to people who haven't been called... that sort of thing.
             
             The atheist responds by asking "if this is true, why talk about it?"  A perfectly reasonable question.  If you're positing a god that can't be explained, why are you bothering trying to explain it?  If by your own admission you can't cause anyone else to believe in it, why tell me of its existence at all?  Christians spend a lot of time bombarding the world with information about their god.  Why do they do that if those messages will be ignored by everyone except the people their god was going to call anyway?
             
             What the atheist is doing is pointing out a contradiction.  The theist describes a god they think withstands the atheist's criticism, and the atheist points out that the theist's behavior doesn't suggest they really believe in the god they're describing.
             
             Then the theist cries wolf.  "Oh, so I shouldn't be allowed to talk about by god then!?  Have you never heard of human rights!?"
             
             But it is perfectly obvious the atheist is not suggesting any such thing.
             
             Either the theist is stupid, and really thinks that the questioning of their motives is a call for an end to freedom of speech, or they are dishonest, and because they have no answer to the atheist they try to escape this line of discussion by making unwarranted attacks on the atheist's character.
             
             The quality of your writing suggests to me you're probably not that stupid.
             
             Rather than engage in false platitudes in an attempt to make myself out to be some sort shining moral pillar, I call out those lies that I detect.

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                Sam Tatumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                What you've written here is very noble, indeed. A part of my mission is to learn the things that I don't know. I know that there are a lot of questions that you could present to me that I could not answer to you in a satisfactory manner. Honestly, if a neutral party were listening to a debate, who had no knowledge of either argument, I sometimes wonder how convincing I would sound. I truly respect what you've presented and it informs me that I have a long way to go. Christian learning is a challenge. But, if I may without any disrespect to your views because I truly respect them, I applaud those who do take on this challenge. But, for an ongoing session of discussion about the validity of what we believe, I realize that we need to be more prepared. The answers, I believe in my heart, are there. It will just take more diligence to dig them up. Hopefully, I can count on your help.

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                aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                HoooKaaay....
                
                Firstly, I did not make either of the comments I replied to;
                
                ddsurfsca:"It is not up to us as Christians to prove anything to anybody."
                
                I can agree with whoever made it, but it was not me.
                
                I perhaps may have rephrased it to say:
                
                For believers and non believers it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of God.
                
                I personally have proven the existence of God to myself,and others, as I have experienced the in filling of the Holy Spirit and witnessed supernatural events take place.
                
                But I can see that a non believer who had not experienced those things and was therefore reliant in totality upon provable evidence, would be reluctant to rely upon hearsay accounts, no matter how reliable those making them may be, and irrespective of the quantity of individuals making those reports.
                
                Does that make sense?
                
                Can we agree on this?
                
                The reference to the UN Article 19 was a tongue in cheek reference to what is a document I would scorn as a believer, so my quoting it to you was cheeky I admit, but it does however establish, in your world, where the UN rules, that I DO have the right even in a secular society to preach the word, and I come into the forums not to pollute the innocent minds of potential atheists who may have strayed into such a dangerous area as the Religion forum (OK I'm being sarcastic) but to chat with my friends in faith about things of faith.
                
                No proselyting needed or offered.
                
                So we continue, with those who object to our debates even taking place interrupting and attempting to bait and goad we believers into uncharitable acts, in order that they (the non believers) may then round on we believers and tell us what bad Christians we are, and we believers allowing our human aspects to show clearly retaliating against non believers.
                
                And for what......?
                
                Like WW1 cannon fodder we occupy opposing trenches and have our snipers, machine gunners and fools that charge across no man's land when the officer blows the whistle.
                
                Meanwhile back in the Officers Mess the Generals mull over how many feet were gained that day against how many dead it took to win the ground, whilst sipping their French Cognac.
                
                I'm off to sleep!

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                   earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   I just LOVE the war analogies! Speaks volumes about your mentality!

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                      greeneyesH1982posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                         
                      
                      what about your mentality of constantly subjecting yourself to forums you hate??? LOL WEIRD!!

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                      aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      Am I inaccurate in my analogy, does it not depict the futility of this situation?

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                   The Paulposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   ...and I never questioned or challenged that idea, and I resent the implication that I did.  Not because there's some danger you'll actually sully my character, but because we should both fully aware I never suggested any such thing and pretending you are not aware is a frustrating bit of dishonesty on your part.

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       cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       i like this response. very eloquent and truthful.

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          greeneyesH1982posted 14 years agoin reply to this

          it is in fact truth in itself... like all believers keep saying.. the proof is in oneself.. but some are just stubborn and dont have that character... God doesnt want to come and show himself to the world if he did that then FREE WILL that he gave us would be a lie.. he dont want to "prove" anything to anyone... its called faith and he wants us to have it... like i said before if someone took a pic like i have seen someone ask on these forums ppl would find a way to think that wasnt true either.. so u see some people will not believe no matter what and that is their choice... u can have an open mind or closed mind an open heart or closed heart... depends on what u are opening and closing your heart to.

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             greeneyesH1982posted 14 years agoin reply to this

             hello agua

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             cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             haha that was me i asked whatshisname. it was actually a commentary in the form of a question.
             
             i respect your right to believe as you wish. what troubles me is some people who are all smug about it and wear their faith like a "Team God" jersey. it has a star-bellied sneetch feel to it almost.

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                greeneyesH1982posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                some ppl might beleive but are not walking with God i think.... some forget to love those around them even the ones who hate them.. is hard to do if u are a man alone yes BUT nothing is impossible with God

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    Marliza Gunterposted 14 years ago

    Isn't it weird how some words seem dull, lifeless, like its not containing any substance...dead...and people fight with it...I know God well.  He has the ability to speak a language with words of 26 letters.... He also can speak only a 4 word sentence..and it would take our worlds best writers more than a whole book to perfectly and exactly portray God's 4 tiny little words...

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    skyfireposted 14 years ago

    that goes into agnostic part. but if i get proof for biblical god then i'll not call it silly but the fact is biblical god is illogical and people are defending for the sake of it by calling it loving and merciful.

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    earnestshubposted 14 years ago

    "what about your mentality of constantly subjecting yourself to forums you hate??? LOL WEIRD!!"
    
    You think that's weird?
    Weird is being indoctrinated in to a religion, and then never examining anything about it, even though nobody can agree on what beliefs are supported or not, because your book has hundreds of contradictions. I guess all the threats of torture convince the gullible and scared.

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       greeneyesH1982posted 14 years agoin reply to this

       earnest i shake your hand and humbly give u a hug my brother.. i do not wish to argue with you.. but for your sanity it probably isnt healthy for u to be in these rooms... seeing how greatly it disturbs you

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          earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Now why would you do that? I will go where I like, do what I like in life as in hubpages forums. My sanity is fine thank you, and I am singularly unperturbed. Perhaps it is a mirror you are seeing grasshopper.

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             greeneyesH1982posted 14 years agoin reply to this

             loving those who u disagree with... can you do it?? is it in your nature?? OR do u need help with that something for all to ponder... how about loving those who have done very wrong to you?? can u to do that??

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                cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                i have a crush on someone who's on the opposite side of the fence
                
                as for loving someone who has done very wrong to me?
                
                nope. they kill that love when they trample on your heart.

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                   greeneyesH1982posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   see!!! thats the beauty of GOD he knows how to love and forgive ultimately!!! this is what TRUE peace is... being strong enough and loving enough to FORGIVE ALL... if u can do this then u my friend have done something truely amazing... because understanding that we ALL will need forgiveness at some point in our life is what makes it even more special.. we have all done wrong and in our time of need we to would like to be forgiven=)

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             greeneyesH1982posted 14 years agoin reply to this

             see trying to start one again my friend but i say to you.. it will end right here because a fire cannot burn without garbage to throw on it

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          sooner than laterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          and I will send my best physicians.

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             earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             You mean you will make another weak attempt at condescension don't you? Physician heal thyself!

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                sooner than laterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                I can't offer you the peace pipe any longer. you won. what else can I say? I think sending my best physicians is the next best step

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                   earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   You call making condescending statements offering the peace pipe?
                   Well I can tell you directly where to put that sort of peace pipe if you like!

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                      sooner than laterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      I'm sure you have plenty of things there already, and I don't engage in that sort of activity. The peace talk was about a month ago btw. sorry you forgot.

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                         earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                         No I did not forget and I stand by the point you are determined to avoid.

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                            sooner than laterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                            and as much as I would like to ask what that point is so that you would feel satisfied in telling me, I'm going to observe my right to say no thanks. oh, and please don't feel that your urge to tell me is greater than my ability to ignore it- it seems once more.

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                               earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                               So you still insist that your condescending statement was an offer of peace? My offer still stands.

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                                  sooner than laterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                  I'm not offering peace. I did three times out of sincerity before. I share not one hair of a thought with you. I feel you are a deeply angered person on a one man mission to insult the religious and cry wolf when the opportunity presents itself. the ice is thin the road is narrow and the trip is short, but outer space must be nice.

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                                     DogSiDaedposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                     No offence mate, but you can't judge people AT ALL xD

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                                     earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                                     My offer was not of peace. My other offer!
                                     Your idea of peace is to make a smart assed condescending statement!

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       h.a.borcichposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Hmmmm... who is condescending?

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    sooner than laterposted 14 years ago

    your other offer. I told you I was strait five times already.

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       earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Avoiding and twisting. Must be a religious art grasshopper...

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          greeneyesH1982posted 14 years agoin reply to this

          still at it i see... tsk tsk

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             earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Read the post! See if you can see anything!

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    macrobinposted 11 years ago

    You're so right.  If Christians would stop arguing/debating and just love others, they could 'be' a Christian instead of a 'pharisee'.  We are simply to love others...period.  If everyone would walk in love this world would be like Heaven.  *sigh*  I've written a lot of hubs about this but I don't know if many actually read them.....thank you for putting this out there....

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