In recent news, Pope Francis has publicly endorsed same sex marriages, as he feels we are all children of god, and have a right to a family. Here's a link to know more:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics … r-BB1akiOh
What are your thoughts on this?
Religion either changes according to public mores and culture or it slowly slides into oblivion, with it's membership choosing other religions that more closely matches what it wants to hear. I always lags, often by decades, but it eventually changes.
Better to go against the Word of God than disappear, it seems.
I hardly think Pope Francis wouuld had such a mind. Shame!
A lot of interesting comments here. I agree it's more important to remove the log in my own eye than to be concerned with anyone else's faults.
As a leader, the Pope is supposed to be a guide, and follow the bible and traditional teachings. Although our current pope is liberal, and could actually be the "bad pope" mentioned in the Fatima apparitions, the faithful will always know the truth; to follow the bible.
We have been warned about the future.
On the other hand, part of being a follower of Christ is to love our neighbor as our self. And not to judge others. And even to be non judgmental to ourselves. I think it's high time that judgment of others stops.
All we need to do, is accept Jesus as our Savior, and He will guide our actions.
I have liked and agreed with most of the comments in this forum. First of all, what the world needs right now (the USA in particular), is tolerance. We must allow everyone to have their own opinions and beliefs. Ideas & beliefs cannot be easily changed. The more we fight others in this, the more they cling to what they believe.
I can't speak for the Pope as the article is not directly from the Catholic church, but here are my thoughts and opinions...
While I am not Catholic, I think the Pope is a good man and is doing his best. In light of the abundance of the bad press that the Catholic church due to Priests doing in immoral things, this could probably help more than harm them unless someone is very staunch and hardcore. Along those lines, all religious leaders are human and have shortcomings. One of my favorite Biblical people (other than Jesus) was Peter. He was flawed, yet Jesus let him lead after His Crucifixion.
As many have said in this thread, Jesus Christ preached love. Most of the world now looks at being against homosexuality is Old Testament (Sodom & Gomorra), so they may think it doesn't matter any more. But I think most who want to be loving and aren't as accepting of homosexuality would say: Love the sinner, hate the sin.
To further theorize, perhaps the Pope does not consider it to be church doctrine and this is just his personal belief. But at the same time, I'm sure that he realizes that most of the world will hang on to his every word, so it is an enormous responsibility. He wants to build bridges. People don't like being told that they are wrong...such as people who smoke know it is bad for them. But they don't like others telling them not to or when/where they can do it. People like to belong and to be accepted. It goes without saying that these things (homosexuality) are more accepted by society than they were in the past. Many would say that it is a sign of the times. But we need to love everyone, even if we don't agree with their beliefs and actions.
I agree that it's better if people are loving of others, not judgmental. I think it's good to have an open mind.
"While I am not Catholic, I think the Pope is a good man and is doing his best."
I think you're right; the Pope is doing his best. The question, though, is whether his "best" is aimed at saving the immortal souls he believes exist from an eternity of torture or at saving the power and position of the church - the income of the largest "corporation" in the world and it's ability to control people.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The Pope is very near that "absolute power".
Ah. Good point. To go along with you, the problem could be "watering things down" too much to please the world. In these times, it is not easy to take the opposite position as he is. But it is more important to please God than man, no? Each is responsible for their own salvation.
More important to please a god than man? That would depend on if you could rationalize pleasing man into keeping man in the church and thus saving his soul. After all, God will forgive anything, and I would think particularly so if His representative on earth, the Pope, said it was alright.
No Pope can represent God on earth. Each person has access to God nowadays. It is only Jesus that has ever represent God. Ministers like apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers are just servants. I think the thought of a particular person representing the vast humanity before God is absurd. In the Old Testament, the priest with the exception of Malchizedek hardly represent.
True, but more importantly he is showing a complete lack of fear, fear of God. Those who fear God, love and obey God. Those who do not fear God walk into schools, churches, and hotel room in Las Vegas and kill dozens of people, or slaughter 60 plus million unborn children.
Where is the world going?. May the Lord have mercy on us all.
I think it’s an excellent decision. True love between two consenting adults is wonderful, whatever their genders.
I think the Pope needs to spend some time reading the Bible. His knowledge of it is obviously lacking. Many Catholics do not like the Pope. I've heard how he serves himself more than the Catholic church.
I didn't understand that as an endorsement as much as an acceptance of people. He endorsed civil unions, not church sanctioned unions.
It makes sense to me. It kind of accepts the word of God. The duty of a Christian is to follow the word. Part of the word is to love your neighbor, as yourself. How would you like to be treated, by people who disagree? I'd like for you to accept my differences, within the greater society.
"The duty of a Christian is to follow the word."
Do you know much about what is taught in the Holy Bible?
Are you familiar with the teachings in Leviticus or the Book of Kings? There are also passages in Romans, 1 Corinthian, Deuteronomy, Judges, etc. that cover the subject.
Do you believe Jesus was God Incarnate? If so, his words and example take precedent.
The two most important commandments. If you don't follow them, you have to really think...are you a Christian?
Just a note.
Jesus never addressed the issue of homosexuality. He addressed other aspects of the old testament and changed them. He did not speak to or change the interpretation of homosexuality in the old testament.
I always ask myself of those who don't know and don't comprehend the Bible if they are Christian. It's more than just showing up on Sunday.
I would think if it mattered as much to Jesus as it appears to matter to you, he'd have taken the time to chime in on it.
He who is without sin, cast the first stone. Quite frankly, I realized a long time ago the log in my own eye is enough for me to worry about, where the doings of my fellow man are concerned.
That's why I consider the left little different from those who claim to be religious. Always looking to condemn others, as if they have no sins of their own to keep them busy.
"I would think if it mattered as much to Jesus as it appears to matter to you, he'd have taken the time to chime in on it."
When I see such things, I want you to show me in the Bible exactly where you can prove such a statement.
As I said before, Jesus changed some beliefs from the old testament such as "Eye for an Eye" and others. He never addressed or spoke about changing the belief of homosexuality from the old testament. This, is a fact.
People either believe the Bible is the word or God or they don't. It's not good for anyone to try and manipulate what it says to meet their emotional needs.
You have several parts of the Bible. The Old Testament which, to me, is a Testament of Man's inability to maintain their commitment to any contracts made with God.
God, in his infinite love and mercy, allowed this to go on long enough to make the point. Then, he came through with a fresh plan, for his relationship with Man. The life and example of Christ was given as the roadmap of how we should interact with God and our fellow man. And his words were given to help us understand that roadmap.
Now, you can deviate by looking back, for reasons not to think for yourself and follow his words and example. You can search past his life, in order to find reasons not to follow his words and example.
Either way, you become a Y-H ist. You put your ideas, your interpretation, your wants and desires before the example of Christ.
"Either way, you become a Y-H ist. You put your ideas, your interpretation, your wants and desires before the example of Christ."
A mirror up to you. Take a look.
"to me, is a Testament of Man's inability to maintain their commitment to any contracts made with God."
Did you know that Jesus preached the old testament? Look in the New Testament and count how many times the words "It is Written" is there. I think it is approximately 80 or more. The Old Testament is part of the Jewish holy book known as the Torah. Jesus was Jewish.
You don't know much about the Bible. What you say sounds good and may make for a good Sunday sermon. It just shows how little you've studied the Bible.
Do you even know the language the New Testament was written in? Do you know how many translations between then and it being translated into English? When you look at the original script and the translations, you see how difficult it is to translate meanings directly into English.
Each of the books of the Old Testament and the New Testament have a place in history of when they were written.
People can pick up a Bible, begin reading it, and think they understand what is written. It is much more complicated.
Now back to the Pope...there is NO Biblical reference for what he is saying. Not in the Christian Bible and certainly not in the Catholic Bible.
I'm afraid I see your view as not in line with Jesus. You see mine as heretical.
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
I'm afraid I see your views as based on a lack of understanding and knowledge of the Holy Bible. I don't think you know enough about the Bible to know what is and is not in line with Jesus.
The Old Testament and New Testament are very intertwined in their meaning and explanation of God's plan for the world. This is a fact.
I agree to disagree.
That is not a fact. It is your opinion based on your interpretation and what you've been told to believe.
That, too, will (I'm sure) remain as a point of disagreement.
Your time would be better spent judging others less and tending to your own house more. Don't look to the passages you can pat yourself on the back on, knowing they aren't your cross to bear. Look to the ones meant for you.
'That is not a fact. It is your opinion based on your interpretation and what you've been told to believe"
Sorry, that is a fact.
The New Testament constantly refers to the old testament. In the New Testament, when the words, "it is written" is referenced, it is talking about the Old Testament. This phrase appears over 80 times in the New Testament. So, yes, the Old Testament and the New Testament are intertwined. You can either accept this or reject it, but it remains a fact.
I suggest you spend some more time studying the Bible both Old Testament and New Testament. Learn the history of them, their authors, the relationship of the authors to God, the history of the time, etc.
There is obviously much more to it than you realize.
I can't believe or agree Jesus change the Old Testament or some OT scriptures. The point is that here Jesus came to fulfil them. Heck, compare the 10 commandments with the new commandment of love. Are these the same? Yep, if love me, you wouldn't steal from, or lie to me, would you? Jesus was present at a marriage feast. When he talk marriage, he focus on just a man and a woman. Here is his timeless advice: "a man shall leave his father and mother(husband and wife) and shall be join to his wife(a woman)." Jesus was much concern about any question that can degrade marriage. To the woman at Jacob's well he said the man you were staying with is not your husband! Thought the world will consider that as excellent! We can infer from this Jesus could not approve same sex marriage.
But when is a christian not a christian? I reason when he/(she) is not a believer in Christ! Here is a problem. Many persons profess Christ or the doctrine of Christ. These goes to church on Sundays. But deep in their hearts are destitute of the man Christ! Remember Sodom and the nation destroyed with fire and brimestorm from heaven? Were these gays, homosexuals, sodomists, and lesbians? God said man should marry a woman. And this is a common doctrine in all religion. Here coitus is fullfil. Otherwise, I and you cannot be here on earth!
You guys may be missing the point here. It isn't what you consider right, or wrong, in your own heart and in your relationship with God. It is, how do we treat others?
How do you define love? In the context of loving others as you love yourself? Your actions are not devoid of behavior the Old Testament defines as sin. Some of those behaviors will remain with you until your dying day.
Jesus further clarified that thoughts, as well as actions, can qualify as sin by the Old Testament standard. So, we are all doomed, by those standards. Claiming a love of God or Jesus does not, somehow, magically make you spiritually better. You are still a sinner. As am I. As are everyone.
Spouting Old Testament law, without putting it into the context of how it applies, using the example of the words and actions of Christ, kind of makes you a Pharisee wannabe.
Putting aside my disdain for the organization of the Catholic church, I can see the example of Christ in the suggestion made by the current Pope. I don't see the example of Christ in the comments of the nay sayers here.
Don't mix love with the commandment. You are doing that. The bible clearly says that Leviticus 20: 13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."
At the same time, those men above love each other. Then why should they be put to death? They are fulfilling the commandment of Love.
Breaking a commandment is one thing and loving each other must honor the moral commandment of God first.
Again Bible says "If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death."
In this situation also both, the adulterer and the adulteress are in love. They may be fulfilling one commandment but breaking another one. Still, the bible says they are put to death. Why? Do you think you are smarter than God? Fulfilling one commandment must be in line with the other commandments of the Bible.
Jesus said: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. "
Law equally applicable for Pope and an ordinary Christian
I agree, but Jesus then spoke about forgiveness in the New Testament. So, being put to death for such things was negated.
“… the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus …” Romans 3:21-24.
You accurately discern and handle the word of truth. Both men in you illustration love one anothe, yet commit the sin of sodomy which is unatural. The case of the man and woman dagrade the image of God to a beast. Blessings!
The Holy Bible or just The Books is a simple book to understand. What prevent I and you as human beings to understanding the scriptures is our sins. Sin is darkness. A person living in a dark alley or valley can't see the light properly. It takes the intervening grace of God to come out of the dark pit. That is my experience. And Philip ran there to heard him read prophet Isaiah. Man, do you undestand what you're reading? Dud, I need guidance, right? The Ethiopian is reading a messianic or Jesus. A little promting from the Evangelist, 'I believe Jesus Christ is the son of God.' .And the light become visible. The Acts 8:26-39. The question is who to obey? The word of God or a minister? I had the Ethiopian experience, not to test if the Pope is right or wrong.
"The Holy Bible or just The Books is a simple book to understand. "
I disagree. The Holy Bible is a very complex text. To truly understand it requires more than just reading the words. It requires understanding the creation of the Bible, its history, and so much more.
People have spent years studying the Bible and have states they've only just started understanding its true meaning.
It takes time and effort to learn and understand the Bible.
I disagree likewise. I spent minutes meditating, praying, and confessing my sins, and that bring me out of darkness into light. Now, the Bible to me is like a father talking to his small boys and girls. Sometimes I immersed myself in a chapter or book and enjoy the many benefit therein. Those who study it for years were studing the anthropocentric aspects, and that hardly bring light to man.
When I read this news I was shocked. The church had supported the Fascist regimes and helped Nazi war criminals escape and by this endorsement of gay marriages, it has not covered itself with glory. There will however be many who will support Pope Francis, so be it.
I agree with you.
When you speak with Catholics about this they will point out there is no rules or laws of the Catholic church that says Catholics had to follow Fascist regimes or helped Nazis. They will also point our there is nothing in the Catholic doctrine that supports gay marriage.
This is the failure of people and not the Catholic Church. In the Holy Bible, God granted people free will. God did not impose his control on them. The reasoning is that you must made a decision to love God. You must come to God of your own free will.
This Pope and others did not follow God's will but their own desires to accommodate people in this world.
When discussing these points, this is when Christians and Catholics get into arguments of the fallibility of the Pope. Many Christians believe he is just another person with all of the failings of a human. Catholics believe he was appointed to his position by God.
It is a never-ending debate.
The Pope clearly advocated civil unions. Not church blessed unions. Never once, at any juncture, did God advocate putting a ring through anyone's nose to drag them along the path. Jesus did not advocate changing Roman law to make it match Jewish law.
I'm not certain how you all miss the point.
This gets confusing; both God and the church does advocate forcing everyone to obey God's rules (or at least what the priesthood says are God's rules). From Blue laws to bans on polygamy and similar forms of marriage to the first four Commandments the church has attempted to force others to behave as God has commanded them.
For the Pope to condone "civil unions" while recognizing that God denies them seems like nothing but a political move, given the church's stance on similar things where if God doesn't approve neither does the church.
I agree that it can look like a political move and, possibly, is.
But, the catholic church is not God. You can't point out blue laws, or any secular laws imposed by religious people in office, as God's law.
The example of Jesus' ministry clearly shows God has no interest in politics. Any person claiming it is their Christian duty to impose Christian beliefs on non Christians is, in my opinion, wrong.
"You can't point out blue laws, or any secular laws imposed by religious people in office, as God's law."
Really? They won't agree - such things as blue laws were imposed purely in response to religious laws about keeping the sabbath. At the root, so was prohibition. Even the fight from the "right to life" falls pretty close to the line. Requiring teaching Creationism in schools comes right from the bible, even if it isn't "God's law". You don't have to hear "God says..." to understand where it is coming from.
Leaving the US for the Middle East, most of their laws derive straight from the Koran. Christianity is not alone in attempting to force everyone into the accepted local version of God's Law.
I'm afraid you haven't proven anything other than that men always seek to impose their will over others
Absolutely they do! And they will use every tool at their disposal...including claims as to "God's Will". That was the point, plus that according to the bible God also impresses his will on others, believers or not. (If you believe such nonsense, He's still doing it: Katrina was retribution for the evils America does.)
Not according to the Bible. It's according to egomaniac claims. If God, indeed, wanted us to know he was responsible for anything in particular; I doubt there would be room for doubt.
So? Who sent plagues to Egypt? Who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? Who killed a whole planet of people, save for a handful?
God's requirements are not ignored lightly, or without retribution.
I get your devil's advocate stance. I can only say the Old Testament is Man recording his experience and understanding of his relationship with God.
The words of Jesus in the gospels are God explaining the relationship he envisions with Man. But, outside of his words the rest of those gospels are Men trying to present the teachings from their perspective.
The rest of the New Testament is Man explaining their understanding of the original words and the explanation given.
As a Christian, I look to my understanding of the teachings of Jesus. Jesus chose people completely outside of the structure created, as followers. There was a reason for that. The further you get away from the original, the more confusing and watered down the original becomes.
The more human ego imposes its own values and biases onto those words, the further you find yourself from the truth.
"But, outside of his words the rest of those gospels are Men trying to present the teachings from their perspective."
And yet His words were recorded decades or centuries after they were spoken, and recorded by men. They were then translated by men, men that certainly had an agenda behind their translations. Is it not reasonable that those memories (or tales passed down for generations) are "Men trying to present the teachings from their perspective"? We find that in every other historical account that is created - why would the bible be any different?
It certainly is - after years of being fed lies and spin the electorate may choose Biden!
I realise the permissive will of God is being confused with the acceptable and perfect will of God here. Most of the evils going on in the world were his permissive will. He let these happen because the instrucments or persons wants them. God will not go against a man's will. For example, the Jews want a king and he permit them have they way, although that is not his best will for them. His best is for him to remain their king. In Job chapter 1, God permit Satan test Job. God state that was not his will, although Satan move God against Job! God do knows that Job as a man of integrity will pass the test. Satan failed at all points and God restored Job again. Better and best is the will of God.
Listen the Lord has many ways of helping you. But he gave the a woman to a man as a help mate. Because he saw that wasn’t good for a man to be alone. So he gave man a woman.
He didn’t give a man another man. He gave man a woman and that woman was a help.
If she was given to me does that mean I own her?
This should tell every person that it is not right and sensible for a man to marry a man; or a woman to marry a woman; or a man or a woman marrying the so call man's best friend-a bitch or a dog!. How about a boy or a girl marrying his/her full blood or blood relatedtbrother or sirters these modern days? Fathers too marrying their daughters? And so on and so forth? The common society frown at such practice. God in his sovereign highly frown such acts.
I guess the bronze age, sheep herders guild to the Universe did not cover homosexual. It's coded anyways in most species, making it all natural and not wrong. If 10% of the human gay population is wrong, then let among the thousands of God's judge them. Any God puts a few of my decent gay friends into a torturist hell, is no God of mine anyways.
Religion is not for me, yet I do like this Pope for his kindness. We are bioorganism first as homosexual is just another part of nature and evolution. Homosexuality spread across most species. Many of the Religious do most damage and interfer with this natural selection by their forcing judgment and their will into converting them.
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