One of the most profound and yet hard to fathom forms of worship and devotion is to lay down one's life for that which you believe. Daily those that are True Believers or Christians are giving their lives for the cause of Christ.
"At The End of The Spear" is the depiction of the story of four missionary families who sacrificed for what they believed. Four men gave their lives for the cause of Christ ... then their families reached out to those who brutally murdered them thus gathering the harvest which came from showing the love and forgiveness of the Lord.
The devotional Extreme Devotion by Voice of the Martyrs is full of testimonies of real people who lived, suffered,and died for sharing their faith. One such testimony is about a young girl who came to Christ. She was given a beautiful white dress by a family that loved her. She was so excited. One day,her father who was not pleased with her decision to follow Christ beat her in a drunken rage ... then left her in the street to die. She was found by her friends near death the formerly white dress now blood soaked and covered in mud. Her internal injuries were too severe to survive ... As she lay in her bed, she asked for the dress. They tried to tell her the dress was ruined ... but she wouldn't be consoled until she had the dress in her hands ... With the simple faith of a ten-year-old girl, she whispered, "Please, I want to show the dress to Jesus. He was willing to bleed for me. I just want Jesus to know that I was willing to bleed for him." Shortly afterwards, the young girl died.
Then there is Rachel Scott of the Columbine High School Massacre ... the question that Rachel was asked before she died, "Do you still believe in God?" She answered, Yes, she believed. The gunman then asked her "Why?" before she could answer he killed her. In her journal she had written the following, "I am not going to hide the light that God has put into me. If I have to sacrifice everything, I will."
Many will yet die ... I ask even myself ... do I have devotion unto death? Do you?
Precious - you are preaching again . You know that goes against the Word.
You are not giving your life for anything. I know you like a good fight - as does any good Kristian, but - why are you going against the Word?
When will you learn that this offensive war-mongering just causes conflict?
So - Rachel Scott went around causing conflict and asking to be martyred? She Died For Krist? Did the other dead kids Die For Baby Jeebus as well? I did not know that Columbine was all about Jeebus. Did Jeebus like the Dress?
How low can you stoop - to use the death of a young girl to push your ridiculous beliefs?
I keep on telling you guys. This is what the bible says:
1. Go around preaching the Word and getting in everyone's face. Be sure and tell them that you have god's word and are fighting the good fight. Make sure to shout at them that they are the enemy and worship Satan the Devil if they do not believe.
2. People really hate it when you do this. It matters not that you are obviously uneducated and behaving irrationally. The Word is What Is Important.
3. Keep on doing it and doing it. If possible do it to so many people and so often that eventually some one cracks and shoots you. It does not matter how many wars are started or how many people abuse the Word. It doesn't matter how many innocent bystanders get caught in the crossfire. What is Important is the Word.
4. You are now just like Jesus and have Given Your Life For Khrist.
Will you guys keep on Fighting For Krist until you cause the Final Konflict?
Because from where I am standing - you are the ones Kausing the Konflict.
Many die for their beliefs in the myths and superstitions of long ago. This is just one of the many downfalls of mankind due to religious quackery. The waste of human's throughout history that have died for their beliefs will be one of the greatest recognized follies of the future.
And, we will be ashamed and humiliated by such folly.
hmm isn't that how those suicide bombers think?
i would never die for a religion, but i know i would die if say, tanks invaded my neighborhhod and i would defend my home and whatnot.
and i would defend my son to the death without hesitation. but to die for religion? no... would you, really?
hi Precious Pearl. i don't think Rachel Scott died for her faith, and i don't see it that way. that journal entry is certainly not proof of that, since she had no way of knowing what was to befall her that day. and her answer to the gunman was just that - an honest answer to his question. do you seriously think she thought 'i am going to die for God and not deny him even if it means this guy blows my head off'? no she was just answering him honestly. that little thug was just a punk with a gun and i only wish he hadn't died by his own hand so he could face earthly justice.
do you have a link for either of these stories? i would like to read them for myself. i don't understand the point of circulating these stories. are Christians being instructed to die for their beliefs nowadays? are they teaching their children that? i am honestly asking out of curiosity.
The gunmen were Satan worshipers and is a known fact. They knew what they were doing when they made their plans.
Circulating the story is really circulating the girl's testimony.
As to it being 100% true or not, I cannot say because I do not know.
To become a Christian one has to die, in a sense. Putting off the old desires and making room for the Holy Ghost to come.
well, Precious Pearl, since you refused to post any links verifying your assertions, i investigated it myself. this "martyr" story is altogether false, and is being perpetuated even though it has been disputed many times. forst of all, Rachel is not the girl who supposedly said yes. it was a girl named Cassie Bernall. only it has now been proven that she didn't say yes either.
here is the story:
Thursday, Sep 30, 1999 09:00 EDT
Who said "Yes"?
Local reporters have known for months that eyewitnesses disputed the account of Cassie Bernall's "martyrdom." So why did the truth take so long to see print?
By Dave Cullen
LITTLETON, Colo. -- Emily Wyant knew from the beginning: Columbine "martyr" Cassie Bernall never said "Yes."
Wyant, who survived the Columbine massacre April 20, told the FBI months ago that the famous "unlikely martyrdom of Cassie Bernall," immortalized in a best-selling book by Cassie's mom, Misty, never happened. She told Misty and Brad Bernall, Cassie's parents, the same account, and she also told the Rocky Mountain News.
But it wasn't until Sept. 24, one day after Salon News broke the story that investigators doubted Bernall's famous gunpoint declaration of faith, that the News printed a long story detailing Wyant's account.
How did the paper react so quickly, with a detailed, never-before-public account of Bernall's death, a day after the new revelations? Sources at the paper confirm that the details weren't actually new at all: They'd been sitting on the story for quite some time. The News ran the article nearly five months after obtaining the true story from Wyant, and two weeks after running news stories promoting the release of "She Said Yes: The Unlikely Martyrdom of Cassie Bernall" -- news stories that presented the account of Bernall's martyrdom as fact.
The Denver Post didn't get its new Bernall stories into print until Saturday. It followed up on Tuesday, after the paper was able to interview Valeen Schnurr, the young Columbine student who was asked by one of the killers if she believed in God -- after she'd been shot. But the Post had been aware of rumors that the Bernall story was not true earlier than that, though it had not confirmed them, according to assistant city editor Evan Dreyer. "We had heard it; we were working on it," he said.
The belated media outing of the truth about Cassie Bernall raises questions about why the story took so long to find its way into print. Misty Bernall's book landed on the Publishers Weekly bestseller list at No. 14 this week, with 350,000 copies in print and more than 250,000 already sold, according to the publisher. In the past three weeks, the Bernalls have appeared on Today, 20/20 and Larry King Live, among others. The story has inspired a massive surge in Christian youth groups' recruitment around the country and overseas.
Emily Wyant watched with disbelief as the Bernall myth mushroomed. "Once she started hearing all that, she said, 'That didn't happen. Why are they saying that?'" her mother recalls. The girl kept waiting for investigators or news reporters to refute the myth, so she would not have to come forward herself.
"She never wanted to ever, ever say anything against it," says her mother, who did not want her first name used because of community sensitivity about the Bernall controversy. "She just was real frustrated with it, and she just kept saying, 'But that never happened. Why are they saying that?' That's the thing that bothered her."
Wyant is the only living person who actually witnessed Bernall's death. She was hiding beneath a table right beside Cassie when it happened. "Emily was right there next to her, and in fact, she was looking right in her eyes, so you'd think she would be able to hear that, being right next to her, if anything was exchanged. And she can't remember anything being said," Wyant explained.
As the Rocky Mountain News reported Sept. 24, Wyant and Bernall were studying alone together in the back of the library. After the gunmen rushed in, the girls crouched beneath a table together, and Cassie began praying aloud: "Dear God. Dear God. Why is this happening? I just want to go home." Dylan Klebold suddenly slammed his hand on the table, yelled "Peekaboo," and looked underneath. He shot Cassie without exchanging a word. Wyant's mother confirmed that the Rocky Mountain News correctly reported the details of her daughter's account.
Salon News reported last Thursday that investigators believed the famous exchange actually took place between Klebold and Valeen Schnurr, and was mistakenly attributed to Bernall. Now Schnurr herself has confirmed that story. On Tuesday the Denver Post reported her account, which she also told to Salon News:
Schnurr was down on her hands and knees bleeding, already hit by 34 shotgun pellets, when one of the killers approached her. She was saying, "Oh, my God, oh, my God, don't let me die," and he asked her if she believed in God. She said yes; he asked why. "Because I believe and my parents brought me up that way," she said. He reloaded, but didn't shoot again. She crawled away.
Schnurr's testimony has been unwavering since the start. After interviewing every person who survived the library to unravel discrepancies, investigators came to believe her story was accurate, and was probably the only such exchange about God with the killers. Investigators have gone public with that belief since the Salon story broke last Thursday.
On Saturday, the Denver Post reported sheriff's spokesman Steve Davis going on the record to state that a lot of investigators had strong doubts about the alleged conversation between Cassie Bernall and Klebold, that they had shared those doubts with the Bernalls, and that those doubts had only grown since they alerted the Bernalls to their concerns.
Friday, the Rocky Mountain News also cast doubt on the account credited with starting the Cassie myth. Division Chief John Kiekbusch said the entire story-that the exchange about God had been between Bernall and Klebold -- began with survivor Craig Scott.
"[Scott] told investigators he heard the "Yes" comment and recognized the voice as Cassie Bernall's," the News reported. "He did not actually see the individuals involved ... Investigators said Scott was asked to point out where the gunmen were at the time, and he indicated a table where Valeen Schnurr -- not Bernall was hiding."
A reporter for the paper said the News was waiting to run a story debunking several Columbine myths, including Bernall's, until a few weeks before the report was released. It was not until the Salon story broke, he said, that Wyant would allow the paper to use her name. News metro editor Steve Myers confirmed that the paper had much of the information about the myths Salon debunked Sept. 23.
"The things that you reported were not unknown to me," Myers said. He abruptly ended the conversation when questioned about the ethics of sitting on the Bernall disclosures when the book was released.
But as recently as Sept. 10, the publication day of "She Said Yes," the News was running news articles presenting the story as fact. The paper actually ran two articles that day, one promoting the book's release and the other enthusiastically reporting on the surge in Christian youth recruitment inspired by the story. The first story explains early on that the book's title refers to 17-year-old Cassie's "final moments before dying." Toward the end of the article, it hedges slightly, with the following paragraph:
"According to some fellow students who survived the carnage in the Columbine library, one of the two gunmen asked Cassie if she believed in God. 'Yes,' she answered. The gunman asked, 'Why?' -- then pulled the trigger."
It offers no reference to dissenting views. The second story was unequivocal, repeatedly presenting the story as fact. "Bernall's answer to her killer -- 'Yes, I believe in God' -- has helped seed a harvest of youthful faith in Colorado and across the country," it reads.
Neither story presented the slightest hint that the paper had long been planning to shatter that claim.
Clearly, the story of what really happened to Cassie Bernall is a sensitive one in the Columbine community.
The Wyant and Bernall families had dinner together some time after the massacre. "Emily just kind of wanted to let them know that she was with her when she died," her mother said. She confirmed that Emily told the Bernalls the exchange about God between Cassie and her killer never happened. "Yes, she did tell them. She didn't volunteer that, they asked her."
But the Bernalls dispute that conversation. Chris Zimmerman, Misty Bernall's editor at Plough Publishing, released a statement saying: "[Wyant] was interviewed for "She Said Yes" and never disputed the original accounts of Cassie's death, as widely reported in the national media. Now, however, she says she doesn't believe Cassie ever exchanged words with her killer. Brad Bernall, Cassie's father, says, 'We are surprised at Emily's new account. It is inconsistent with the one we received from her and her parents earlier.'"
Wyant said Emily was torn for months over the escalating myth, and her parents tried to caution her against bearing the entire weight of a potential backlash. "She was in a tough position," her mother said. "So we were trying to guide her and help her, try and make the best choice. She doesn't know the ramifications that could come afterwards. She was just thinking about 'I want to tell the truth.'"
Emily expected the ordeal to end once she spoke to the Rocky Mountain News, and was surprised and frustrated that it didn't. "It was kind of like therapy for her to get it out," her mother said. "And she kept waiting to see it, but ..." she trailed off.
Wyant said that a News reporter told her the paper was conducting its own thorough investigation, compiling stories from every person in the library, putting them together into maps of where everyone in the room was, "to get an idea of what really happened."
By contrast, no one from the Denver Post contacted the Wyant family until Saturday night, asking for a reaction to the statement from Misty Bernall's publisher.
The Post's Evan Dreyer admitted to conflicted feelings about tackling the controversy over Bernall's martyrdom. "For a lot of these stories, it comes down to: We're the local media," he said. "We have to weigh lots of questions of sensitivity, caring and concern for the victims' families, more so than a lot of the national media does. "So, as local media, you think twice and three times and four times about whether that's a story you want to go with. But maybe we are erring too much on the side of concern and sympathy, and [Salon News] sort of forced the issue."
children aren't soldiers in God's army. this sort of thing is pretty creepy, actually. sorry but that is how i see it.
I have to agree. "Faith" promoting rumors are rampant in any organized religion. They are the basis and pretense to "inspire" their congregations to hate and fight for God. And even when it's not to inspire mallace, it's still incredibly shocking to those who have kinder hearts, but must face the truth of the lies perpetuated on to them. It's deplorable all the way around. It's actually very heinous to justify a lie to promote a twisted sense of "right."
Better to find your faith in God by truth than "inspired" rumors.
There will always be conflicting accounts about what happened that day ... the truth is only known by those who experienced it first hand. If there was a lie perpetuated ... it was not intentional on my part. Being wrong about something doesn't make a person a liar ... it makes them wrong. I believe the testimonies given ... that doesnt' make me a liar ... I tend to believe the best of people not the worst. Does that make me niave? ... perhaps ... does it make me a liar ... I don't think so.
Oh now it is "conflicting accounts"?
Just a few hours ago it was definitive proof of some one being daft enough to die because they hold an irrational belief in a non-existent invisible super being.
Yes - if you are going to push this garbage in an effort to recruit people to your religion - you have a responsibility to check your facts.
Don't you think?
Blindly believing whatever suits your pre existing beliefs is not the same as "believing the best of people."
Another little white lie. Still - no worries - I am sure lying for Jesus will get you into heaven.
It makes you someone careless enough as to post things and make the idea of the statements yours, without checking.
And again I say :
What's your point after putting as an example a fake story ?
Do you realise what harm you're doing to your religion?
Can't you see in what shameful state you present it ?
I'm sure Christianity is better off without you !.
Niave, yes I agree.
Christ's reason for sacrificing himself is to let us see how big can be love in our hearts and how powerful is love in front of death.
On top of death is love and his victory, there is no point in taking stories to talk about Death because Christ and his love is always beyond it.
Why do you keep talking about it, and even mention a Devotion Unto Death? Christ was devoted to his love for all Living beings, peace and sharing. Not Death. You argument for a Death Devotion is simply, pointless.
We're all going to die. Devotion or not.
What's your point after putting as an example a fake story ?
Do you realise what harm you're doing to your religion?
Can't you see in what shameful state you present it ?
I'm sure Christianity is better off without you !.
I am not prepared to die for an invisible bronze age fable, no.
Hey you hows it going - looking forward to my devotion to death, so inspiring agree?
Absolutely! Warm weather, amongst friends and a nice party in New Zealand before we get on the bus! God I love NZ.
bet we still get to write hot hubs but even more graphic now
I believe they have no hub moderators in the hot house. We will just go for it!
Wonderfully moving. Bought a tear to my eye.
But - I really want to know if Jeebus liked the dress.
Do all youing girls have to die for jeebus and if so - what happens if they ar wearing the wrong dress? Do they still get into heaven? What if they are fat? I know Jeebus doen't like fat chicks. Do they burn in hell until they are thin enough?
So many Kwestions.
Maybe Precious (she does not call herself that - God Does) will be able to answer these Kwestions.......
LMFAO just about peed my pants-I'm going to hell for saying fucking
Don't worry Mark all of your questions will be answered but not by me. And the fact that you find humor in the innocent death of a child ... I really have no words. You sadden me ..
I find humor in just about everything. It is the only thing keeping me sane.
But taking advantage of a girls death to promote your ridiculous religion is pretty poor behavior, Oh Precious One.
The only Kwestion I want answered is - did jeebus like the dress?
Seriously, I have met so many good people on these religious forums! You are one of the greats! I always have fun when you're around!
Earnest, good job is it me or is tonight's threads deadly serious?
They are - the religionists are getting more aggressive as their power wanes and competition for God's approval gets hotter.
We now have laws in France against wearing certain Muslim clothing because the Muslimists are getting real aggressive.
Never thought I would see a law against wearing a type of clothing.
They will do their damnedest to create the Final Konflict.
I think some of them are deadly serious!
I do not beleive that Jesus expected people to die for faith, I think he wanted people to live for faith, I think only extremists use faith as an excuse for war and death.....I think it is time that the world, what ever each persons faith, joined hands together to drive out the darkness that is in extremists hearts.....praise Jesus dont use him as an excuse for death and destruction
He gave His life that we might live ... yet rose again ... the Word talks about those who die/died because of their belief in Him. His death was a part of His gift to us ... that we might live. He said that we would do even more than he did, so if He died ... why wouldn't you think that those who believed wouldn't also? He told us that there would be those that would die because they have chosen to follow Him. It is not an expectation but it is a fact that for some Christians dying for their faith will be the end result. I know of several ministries who are training ministers who are called to go into countries where if they are caught ... it will cost them either their freedom or their lives.
I think they are very brave to answer that calling. I know I'm not that brave.
Honestly, I believe that He places in us the ability to withstand that which He calls us to endure. The scripture says that He has not given us a spirit of fear but of power, love and a sound mind. Stephen who was stoned to death ... said "Father, forgive them ..." To die for your faith is a sacrifice of love.
This is true but there is more to it than that. Suppose at the point of death someone would say, I deny Jesus and all that He had done for me.
When you get right down to it, you cannot live for Jesus if you are not willing to die for Him.
I think to sacrifice your life is a very serious thing and I agree with what irish said above. I think life was meant to be lived and how you live it is a contribution and a gift to God. You gave two examples of Christians who were murdered. It's not clear to me that they were killed because of their faith and I don't read it as a sacrifice for God.
You would have to read the accounts for yourself ... they did indeed die for their faith. And you are right ... to sacrifice your life is a very serious thing. To live for Him fully is your greatest gift to Him ... to die for Him is the greatest sacrifice.
Precious - making a christian martyr out of one of the Columbine victims is quite disgusting behavior.If you people want to provoke people to the point where they end up killing you - that is your business, but trying to make yourselves out as heroes because you are stupid enough to kill and die for an invisible sky fairy?
Deary me. No wonder your religion is despised around the world and Christians get killed for shoving their ridiculous beliefs down people's throats.
See - there is an easy way to prevent this.
Shoving it down your throat? What prompted you to even post here in this thread? Who twisted your arm and [b]forced]/b] you to post?
Dear me. Deliberately obtuse once again. This is what we are talking about:
"I know of several ministries who are training ministers who are called to go into countries where if they are caught.......it will cost them either their freedom or their lives."
You mean you haven't had them drawn and quartered yet? What is wrong with you? How can you actually know ministers and allow them do such a dreadful thing as to try and help people who need it?
Help people who need it? Like taking Aboriginal children away from their parents to give them a good christian upbringing?
DO I even need to mention the child sex abuse in the Catholic church? I see you guys have totally eradicated poverty and abuse in Africa though. Very, very well done.
How much poverty have you eradicated? I can't comment on the child abuse charges because I know very little about them. I do ask one question of you. Why when looking at a totaly white sheet of paper, you only notice the one tiny little stain that might be on the corner of it?
Christian missionaries do so much more than you want to believe. They help the whole community where they go. They teach not only biblical principles, but they also give children an education that they would otherwise not recieve.
Where do athesits help the communties where they are sent? I forgot, athesits don't send anyone anywhere do they. They simply sit at home with their computers to post insulting remarks at Jesus and His followers.
Mark, I didn't make her a martyr ... you really should do some research before you speak (write) ... her father shares her testimony even to this day. I think he would know.
And I deliberately didn't share the names of the ministries because even though "I trust you." it is dangerous for those who are involved. You can suscribe to the Voice of the Martyrs to find out about those who are imprisoned if you are really interested ... which I am quite sure ... you aren't.
Karl Liebknecht, Rosa Luxembourg, Che Guevara, Camilo Torres, to name but a few, died for their faith that a better social and political order could be established for humanity.
Which sort of proves that communism with all its atrocities is rooted in a monotheistic religion, namely Christianity
LOL David, Jesus was a communist, wasn't he? All that stuff about camels and needles, ya know? Those guys just started to actually implement his teachings to build a heaven on Earth.
Not a communist in the Maxist sense. Although I am a staunch capitalist, I technically live in a "Christian Commune" ... specifically I have a family living with me who lost their home ... we work together for each other's good. It works fine on a small scale. We know each other. Care about each other. It doesn't work on a large scale. When they get back on their feet, they will move out...
I think THAT's the type of thing Jesus was talking about.
Yeah, that never works on a bigger scale but may - or may not - work on a smaller scale. The number of people parasiting on their spouses both emotionally and materially (including house chores) shows that it does not always work on even the smallest possible scale.
And Jesus clearly could not have been a marxist since Marx was not even born at that time, and I did not mean to say that. Yet Marx did build on Jesus message.
Jesus looked more at motivation than actual behavior. That's why he could be so rough on the religious right of the time and so easy on "sinners".
And I can't see how a guy who starts out with "Religion is the opiate of the masses" ... can be said to build on the work of one who said, "For God so loved the world."
Marx as well as many popes, pastors, missionaries etc. completely missed Jesus' point. It's not about what you do nearly as much about why you do what you do.
Yup. And starting threads by using the death of a young girl to attempt to persuade people to join up to a religion is pretty disgusting behavior.
Still - you have hit one of the nails on the head also. That is indeed what jesus said - and what utter crap it is.
This is what persuades good Kristians to flog native Americans until they believe and steal children from aboriginal families to give them a good christian upbringing.
Because another way of saying it is, "The intentions justify the means."
Wrong again, Mark, that's not at all what it means.
I never said that is what I think.
Odd how many different interpretations there are of what jesus was supposed to have said. Almost like he never said anything and a bunch of people made some stuff up to suit themselves.
Well, according to the bible Jesus had quite a few different messages, often contradictory. You picked one, others picked a different one, and Marx picked the camel and such
As for religion being opiate to the masses, I would agree with him
Yet this motto was mostly used to switch believers from one opiate to another - discredit the "sacrifice your earthy life for heaven after life" message and replace it with "sacrifice your earthy life for better life of your children message". Second part is different, but the first part does not change
I am astonished that men could die martyrs for their religion. I have shuddered at it. I shudder no more.I could be martyr'd for my religion. Love is my religion. And I could die for that.
I think there is a difference between suicide bombers and what Precious is talking about. Suicide bombers decide to die and take out as many others with them as possible. Martyrs are those who refuse to hide or recant what they believe even if the price is life.
All the flack and attack given this thread is just appalling. It is in the religions forums where it should be, and the OP is obviously addressed to other christians. Those it is not addressed to cannot seem to stop themselves from juvenile and disrespectful behavior. Hijack it, laugh at the hubber, and verbally assault something that don't believe in....brainy?
Wonder if these guys throw rocks at local churches just because you don't think they should be there? Do you walk into a christians meeting and start your garbage? Wonder how you manage to function really.
Your judging. This is a public forum so anyone has the right to say whatever they want. If you can't handle it then don't post. This is nothing new so don't act so surprised. Oh wait! Are you trying for Martyrdom??
You are quite right. People who can post here have the right to act like asses. Many of them are allowed to speak through their own body orifices meant for other purposes if they choose to.
Cruelty is not attatched to only one group of people. People are generally cruel and no one can say otherwise in truth.
H.A. Borcich, I appreciate the distinction that you are trying to make, but it is not always that simple. Sometimes when the bad guys have taken you captive, the right thing to do is to pull a "Samson in the Temple." It's a form of suicide, too, but it saves others. Think of the people on Flight93 on 911. They gave their lives to thwart the plan of the fanatics who hijacked the plane and meant to use it as a weapon.
Hi Aya, you are right ... they gave their lives for others or for what they believed in.
Yes, it's a very good distinction Aya. Also it's a non-secular sacrifice, point being that a person can sacrifice their life for the good of the many and not only a higher cause. Shades of Spock indeed.
wow, in no way was that my intention. i didn't see a "Christians only" disclaimer. she posted it in a public forum. anyway i read all of the comments and i can see why you feel this way, but just to be clear, that was not my intent anyway.
Thanks, h.a. borcich for even trying to bring some balance to the forum. I actually went to sleep soon after posting this ... I'm glad that I did. I am not offended ... my heart is heavy and saddened that so many would make fun of those who died.
But taking advantage of their deaths to push your religion is OK?
Worse than sad..... pretty pathetic actually.
Just because somone share's what is on their heart doesn't mean that they are trying to evangelize. Really, you are way too intense at times ... Sharing testimonies is a part of the Christian way of life ... I was touched by the reminder that there are those that die for what they believe. It made me examine myself ... would I die for Him? And by the way, you chose to read and respond ... so how is it pushing? It would be another thing if I had your email address and bombarded you with my beliefs but I posted in a public forum where you have a will to read or not. So, get off of the pushing the religion thing .. it just doesn't fly.
Of course it flies. You told me yourself about ministers going around the world to spread their beliefs and ready to die for it.
This is why your religion is going down hill - too many lies spread. Sharing testimonies - without even checking the facts. As long as Kristianity sounds good? Disgusting behavior. Sorry - but that is the truth. Even this dead girl's story is a lie.
Jesus would be proud.
You are right, religion is going down hill but I don't have a religion ... I have a relationship.
Do you ever sleep? Bye, Mark ... I am sure we will encounter each other again. Have a great day!
It is you I am talking about. You seem to think it is OK to lie to promote your religious agenda. If you genuinely had a "relationship," you would not need to do so.
Of course I sleep - but not at 6 o clock in the early evening.
Did your husband approve of it or are you cheating?
For those of you struggling to comprehend...Precious posted this to open a thread for other christians to discuss devotion even unto death. It is a real topic.
A week or so ago I saw a thread on ordering materials for another religions practices...and I read but did not feel compelled to post anything mocking, rude or insulting. That sense of self control seems to be lacking among many hubbers.
So if you don't want to discuss the topic - Devotion even to death- maybe put on grown up attitudes to either discuss or leave it alone. Make sense?
You are twisting it, and I am sure you know it. Holly
hey Holly, how are you.
i would be the first to admit it if i were "twisting" something, believe me.
i asked PP in a polite manner to provide links to support her story out of curiosity. see, i have never been one to just swallow stuff people hand me, which is why i wasn't a very good Catholic school student, however devout. "she asks too many questions" was what one of the nuns wrote on my report evaluation. anyway, this whole Columbine story is not true, no matter how you slice it. and yet religious leaders (i surmise) are perpetuating these stories to encourage their flock to sacrifice all for Christ, it seems to me. please correct me if i am misinformed.
i don't see where she said "Christians only", do you? maybe she should have prefaced her post with "Christians only". i have seen threads where it has been specified "Christians only" and stayed out of them. no one needs to go twisting stuff to make a point. they just state the facts, cold and hard as they may be. how is that evil again?
Cossette - Please know that my post(s) have not and are not directed at you. My first paragraph was my thoughts on the suicide bomber thought, but the second paragraph was NOT towards you - just the balance of my post. I am sorry it appeared that way.
As far as the Columbine story - I believe the parents of the girl wrote a book - I will look for a link.
The Martyrs website is real and I will include a link for that shortly.
I don't believe Precious is lying as I too have heard these things from respectable sources. I do believe her intent has been hijacked by those who only want to mock christianity. I think all should be able to post to the threads, but the constant attacking is just over the top.
Again, I am sorry my post caused you distress for it wasn't meant to. If you check the thread you'll see what posts I was speaking of.
http://www.persecution.com/ = Voice of the Martyrs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_ … l_massacre
The second link addresses columbine.
Precious did not lie. Sorry Cossette - Holly
Holly, I appreciate you and your passion. I also want to thank you for defending me .. I didn't lie.
Somewhere in all of this "mess" a question was asked ...
And Cosette, I wasn't deliberately ignoring your questions ... I just didn't see them at first and by the time I did ... you thought I was ignoring you. Which I wasn't ... and I got "lost" in all of the other responses.
Thanks, Holly for posting the links requested.
hey there. i didn't say you were ignoring me, i just said you didn't post any links to support your assertion. no worries. i have always just been that way, wanting to see what is behind stuff like this. it's a curse,
As you say - this is a discussion forum. It is not solely for other christians.
Oddly enough - some of us find it offensive when a religionist lies about an event in a effort to push their religion.
I am sure there are people dumb enough to die to push their religion - I have read history books and there seems to be no shortage of them. I think it is something to be ashamed of - not proud of.
And taking advantage of someone else's death to push a religious agenda? Dusgusting behavior.
Teaching children that Jesus is watching them and make them prepared to die for their belief and worry if Jesus will like the dress they are wearing when they die? Child abuse - nothing more or less.
Do you know if Jesus liked the dress?
OK, Misha, here's a non-monotheist martyr, as reported by BBC News:
28 August 2000
Ten guerrillas belonging to the outlawed National Liberation Front of Tripura ,the NLFT, broke into a temple near the town of Jirania on Sunday night and shot dead Shanti Tripura, a popular Hindu preacher popularly known as Shanti Kali.
The separatist group says it wants to convert all tribespeople in the state to Christianity
Christians want others to join them in the Kingdom of God by proclaiming the one and only way to God.
WA, I am trying to see your point? I never said everyone who was ever murdered belonged to monotheistic religion
where did you read that the gunmen were Satan worshippers?
PP, i think what people are having a problem with is the perpetuating of stories that just aren't true. you probably think they are true but if you just investigate a little you will find that they aren't.
And using it to promote a religious agenda. Terrible behavior t take advantage of a young girl's death in that way. Disgusting.
Do you believe the Holocaust really happened? Would you deny the testimony of the Jewish people that lost their loved ones because of who they were and what they believed? How dare you deny the testimony of those who have died? These are not stories but real people who gave their lives for the cause of Christ ... whether you believe it or not ...
Nate Saint's real life and death are easily researchable. If you bing Voice of the Martyrs .. you can read about those that are even now in prison.
They did not lie with their deaths and I am not lying when I share their testimony. I am not the one that needs to seek the truth.
And again, Mark ... it is your will to read or not to read. Feel free to opt out.
You can not take death stories to support your arguments about a faith to Death, Jesus toughs has given hope to all humanity and if you take this stories for this propose you make me think that you take Jesus's death at the same level with the same meaning.
None of which changes the fact that you are perpetuating a lie to promote your ridiculous hate mongering religion.
Why should I not get involved when I see you actively lying to push your religion?
I see a lot of you believers telling me I should keep my mouth shut.
I remember recently that you vowed to leave the Religion forums. I would think twice about calling anyone a liar if I were you. You wrote; So, it is time for me to stop interacting here. I will leave you in peace to congratulate each other about how much you "love" everyone and looking forward to the party you will be enjoying in heaven.
The original post can be found at the link below.
Sir Dent are you trying to pick a fight? Can I help?
I never try to pick a fight. I only like to point out errors people make sometimes in judgment. Of course if you want to fight, be my guest. I will sit back and watch and post as possible,
Nah, that was a good shot LOL. But Mark is sleeping already, so we won't have a fight in the open, at least not until tomorrow
It is better than a rocket launcher don't you think?
I love how I am called an agressor by stating that Mark lied after accusing others of doing the same thing. It makes me feel welcome here.
So you mean Christian Germans killed lots of non-Christian Jews in the name of Jesus? How exactly this proves anything good about Christianity?
Yeah, not a good example at all. Way to think things through there.
Just for the record ... not everyone that says that they are Christian are Christian. Those that are ... know that the Jewish people are "God's Chosen" so obviously any "Christian"Germans weren't really Christian ... Jesus was Jewish afterall.
This is just getting ridiculous ... I am done.
Every thing that has a beginning has an end,
But death is only the beginning to another stage.
The only way to understand death,
Is watching a life in your arms going away and there is nothing you could ever do about it.
Yesterday i felt that, so I don't really think this thread has any thing to teach about Death.
For sure it was a car accident, but blood in my hands is still fresh and i can tell for myself, is worst than a heart break.
oh i don't think she lied either. she may have been misinformed.
supposedly Rachel's parents wrote a book about their daughter, but so did Cassie's parents, both saying the same thing and in fact it was a whole other girl (i forget her name) who was asked if she believed in God and then she was not killed. anyway i hope you can get to the bottom of it. there's tons of conflicting stories out there about this incident. the problems come when these stories (like the Ben Stein one) are perpetutated as fact and used as essentially false testaments to the power of Christ in people's lives to inspire the flock. nothing wrong with that, but inspiration should come from truth, not tall tales.
Good morning/evening/afternoon friends! It is 8.30 am here.
Hello all, 4:48 here, and it's my birthday! So all religious people have to be nice to me today no matter what I say to them.
Happy birthday to you happy birthday to you happy birthday happy birthday happy birthday to you!
Any religionist who is nasty to you today will not get any cake.
Birthdays are good for you. Statistics show that the people who have the most live the longest. HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!!!!!
Chicago Chicago that toddlin town!
Must be cold at this time of year. Loved the people I met in Chicago. Funny, clever interestin place!
......and over here we have a spieces familiar to us all it's the atheists without a cause. This lost tribe of misfits don't believe in any thing except themselves. Knowing their thoughts are unoriginal and worthless they are known to attack the innocent who are drawn to higher calling. They feel morality has no place in a secular sociaty and if it ain't secular it's time to attack! Integrity is their enemy and they will fight to preserve dishonesty. Charity is a word they don't want to know how to spell. The only religion they believe in is "Dork religion". They either want or want to give each other dork's. They subscribe to the theory that their the god and they only pray to their own twisted beliefs. Nice, HUH?
Jesus was a Jew, yes, but only on his mother's side.
And here we have the christian. Good little christian, forever touting his lost cause. Knowing his religion is unoriginal and worthless, he tends to attack the innocent thinking man whom he cannot persuade to his twisted and erroneous viewpoint. He is amazingly bereft of any morality on his own and so draws it all from long dead men whose own morality was often questionable. Integrity is beyond him, for he has spouted lies and upheld deception for so long that honesty is a word he completely fails to understand. Charity is withheld for the others of his ilk, and temporarily extended to potential recruits to his mindless brand of truth. Spelling anything is a challenge for him. His religion consists of dorks who cannot even understand the simple teachings of the man they claim to be their leader, a man who has been dead for almost 2000 years, and who never had anything to do with them. He subscribes to the theory that lies are truth, hate is love, and idiocy is a virtue. He and his kind pray all the time, over everything, and although noone and no god are really listening they attribute every minor detail of their lives to blessings from a fairy godfather.
Goodness you're insulting. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and credited you with actually striving to do what is good and right despite how misled you are in such a pursuit, why can you not extend the same goodwill unto others who don't believe as you do?
You'll never understand anything will you?
Grasping to be original is not a sin just really weak. My point is, I'll help you understand, you and the rest of the misguided never quit harrassing Christians. You constantly beat the same dead horse over and over again. Try to redirect your energies to something productive.
I was trying to be the three fingers you had pointing back at yourself as you pointed one at us. I could certainly do it again with this post, you seem to leave yourself wide open for it, but it was rather unoriginal I confess.
This one I can't resist though. You said "You constantly beat the same dead horse over and over again." and I am just amazed at your blind hypocrisy. Or I would be amazed, if it wasn't pretty much par for the course.
I thought you loved me? Don't you know it's my birthday and this is the best you can offer? C'mon. At least tell me again how much you and your god love me and want me to have all the blessings I can handle. I wouldn't believe you, but at least I'd give you credit for trying to be nice.
It's your Birthday? Well Happy Birthday! I hope you're having a really great day! I do love you and I care about you. Sometimes the constant barrage make me a little sarcastic and don't tell anyone but I like to tease. Some of my ramblings are tongue in cheek.
That's a bit harsh sneak. I don't share your beliefs, but I think my family and friends would disagree with that description of non believers like myself.
why do you assume people who ask questions in this thread or who disagree are "atheists"?
i think you maye have become a little unhinged lately...
Come on Sneako, this thread is a lost case. This match you lost guys, move on to the next
The good news is that Jesus is coming back. The bad news is that he's really off.
Wow! Pandoras Box. That is a well constructed and solid post!
I admire your clarity!
(refering to your earlier reply to sneaker.)
Very honest and direct though, one typo does not a mess make, or something like that!
Hi Cosette! I never know who to say good morning or evening to... so many time zones to remember!
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