Moses seems to be very important to those following the Christian or Hebrew version of the old testament. Genesis is one of his alleged writings. Just wondering, were there any other witnesses to what God told him to say?
There never seems to be anyone around when Mo talks with God. How do we know he didn't just make things up?
haha i always wondered that too, especially when watching The Ten Commandments. i mean how did they know he wasn't some crazy lunatic?
Well the Bible tells us he smashed the first lot of tablets. Maybe he didn't agree with the content...
He was interrogated and lie detected after each visit. What other proof do you need?
Moses was nothing more than a story.
Was he a real person?
Did he really live a conscious life?
The words of Jesus' work says Religion before and during his time was following a false idol or "god".
Hmmm.......? So, who is right?
Jesus' work or Religion?
They both cannot be right, because Jesus' work had nothing to do with religion in the first place, but it's the only place you will find it.
A little strange, huh?
Just a thought.
Well you tried and you missed! Jesus knows Moses, and always has.
Yeah, you're right. Jesus knew him? Him to be fake as the GOD religion put forth.
Hows your water weight issues holding up?
Don't take me so seriously. I think you're decent enough guy, I just don't like being put down for my religion. If I think theres no hope then I just mess around.
Regarding the second statement, I told you so. When you get frustrated you lash out.
Regarding more importantly the first statement, how do you think we like being put down (you're going to hell, gays are an abomination, nonbelievers have no place in this country, etc etc.) for our beliefs?
Moses had several other writings beyond Genesis and many that are not included in the common canon of the Bible. The original Ten Commandments were a higher law that the Hebrews were commanded to follow. Upon seeing their wickedness the tablets were smashed and a new set of laws were brought forth from the mountain. This set is of a lower order that the people were ready for and could keep. Eventually, the original set will be instituted once we are ready for it.
In response to the original question there are other records of people who recorded dealings with Moses. Perhaps not speaking with God but prophets prior and after have testified of him and his mission to the world. He was the initial means of fulfilling the promise made to Israel.
Possibly what I was referring to when I mentioned the Dead Sea scrolls. These scrolls contain books which some editors didn't think should be contained in their version.
In a sacred translation of the Bible of those passages that were lost there was an entire book, the Book of Moses, that came through revelation. It is a clarification from Moses of Biblical passages originally wiped from the Bible canon. There are also writing included in the Apocrypha, however, those works do have errors in them by men who were not inspired. Those are not part of our standard works in the Church.
There are writing from Abraham not included in the Bible found in the catacombs of Egypt in the 1800s. These were quickly stricken as false from many faiths. The parchments came to be examined by the Prophet of our Church at the time. Upon his examination he translated the writings and verified it to be of the hand of Abraham.
Both offer deep examination regarding man's relationship to God and man's potential. They offer insight into science that actually work in concert with many scientific facts of today.
How did they determine who was or was not inspired, goldenpath?
Since the Church's inception the doctrine has always been, and always will be, to personally study, ponder and pray about every revelation that the Prophets and General Authorities present to the members of the Church. It is not part of the Church to blindly follow but rather to "question boldly" all doctrines. In other words to pray about, question and test the doctrines. Through this the Church has survived.
As far as the prophets of old. The current authorities have testified of them and the members are to pray about those testimonies. Also, the Book of Mormon is a companion to the Bible and it was recorded and compiled on this continent 2,000 years ago. Two records, two continents, ancient records testifying of the Father and the Son. That is a testimony. These two records are what is referred to in Ezekiel 37. The stick of Judah is the Bible and the stick of Joseph is the Book of Mormon.
Sorry, the book of Mormon was made up by Joseph Smith and no amount of praying will make it anything else. Smith used some of the same techniques used during his con man days to claim his prophesies after writing the book.
No one witnessed the so-called golden tablets containing the writings other than fellow con men. "Authorities" may not be the best word to describe those with an agenda to prove their own musings.
Where did you get your information about the book of Mormon being the stick of Joseph?
It matters not where I get my information if you are unwilling to be tolerant and understanding. I care not about converting you but I do expect adult behavior and tolerate other views as I have everyone elses.
I, myself, have put it to the test. I don't physically use test tubes and equations as many here would like to evaluate life. My tests are different and have proven well for me. I speak for no one else but me. Above all I never condescend or put down anyone else for their belief.
We test and question our authorities through practice. Through practice of the dictates of our faith, that being faith, hope and charity, we gain the evidence of the doctrines of Jesus Christ. Also, through this practice, do we gain the evidence of the validity of the scriptures which we use.
I am trying to be tolerant and understanding but it's hard to understand things which make no sense to me. The ancient Aztecs and Mayans prayed hard before ripping others hearts, still beating, out of their chests. Their "authorities" told them it was okay to do so. By the way, when you say "my church" what church are you referring to? And the stick of Joseph, what makes you think this is the book of Mormon?
The ancestors who crossed the seas and settled this continent were the principle descendants of Joseph. In the chapter the two are to become one, together, which they have become since the translation. This imagery was explained through translation as was many parts of the Bible. With all the varied ideas of the Bible it is only fair to say that true translation must be derived through revelation. It is these revelations that we, as the membership, are counseled to pray about and receive our personal conviction and testimony of it's truthfulness.
With all the translations it really makes the imagery in the Bible clear and truly inspired. Sorry for my earlier comment. I understand that these things seem apparently stupid and dumb to those who do not and have not practiced this faith.
What Church? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Most refer to us as the Mormon Church - NOT to be confused with the Fundamentalist Latter-day Saints involved with polygamy.
I would like to hear more about the ancestors who crossed the seas. Why weren't the natives here worshiping god already if this is the case? Wouldn't they be speaking Hebrew if this was the case? What ships did they use and where did they disappear to? I would love to read this account. Or is this more revelation?
Language. Anytime you separate a people from their home and let them grow for hundreds of years you will never see a common language that they once had. This is why the translation of the plates, the Book of Mormon, were necessary. The character writings were an altered form from that of the Holy Land. Without revelation and inspired ability to translate the records would have never been dicipherable.
It is a sad story about the people on the Americas after the Confounding of Languages. They had times of peace and times of trouble. It's quite amazing though. Within about twenty verses of this scripture it speaks of the final warfare that happened. In those short verses it went from millions on both sides down to one. Eventually what was left were few to roam the lands and remultiply. The prophet and recorder of events at the time had to go into exile. Sad but amazing story. It all started with the decay of society and the disregard of the commandments of God.
The scripture also speaks of Hagoth, who was a builder of ships and may have been a principle means of populating many islands in the southern hemisphere. This, too, is amazing.
Yes, these records are in book form and available to anyone who wishes to read the accounts.
I am truly sorry goldenpath, but I cannot believe this version of American history. I assume you are quoting "scripture" from the Book of Mormon, correct me if I'm mistaken.
This is on a par with me claiming "Gone With the Wind" as my own book of scripture. for example : Prophet Rhett and Sister Scarlet are fleeing the damn Yankees and come to a river without a bridge. Sister Scarlett asks "Oh Prophet Rhett, how can we get across?" Prophet Rhett smiles, showing his pearly white teeth beneath the thin mustache, and declares "frankly my dear, I think I'll build a dam."
How much convincing would it take for you to buy into my belief of GWTW being Biblical scripture? This will give an idea of how I feel about Smith's novel.
If, however, you have some real evidence and not just some joker's "revelations," I will be more than happy to have a look.
The brutality and cruel nature of the civilizations you mentioned came after the apostasy. After Christ ministered on the Americas there remained continual peace for about four hundred years. After that the people started to decay. The prophets and disciples were shunned, killed and exiled. Eventually two great civilization warred killing millions. Then came the groups you named.
We've also a record of two great civilizations on the Americas thousands of years before - shortly after the confounding of languages at the Tower of Babel. This is a truly remarkable record.
It is 11P and I work till noon tomorrow. If anyone wants more information email me or leave a forum post. However, as usual, I will probably check in tomorrow and see slander and bashing. Oh well, It's the life of a Latter-day Saint.
Fear he, a great evil who claims to be tolerant but preaches only hatred and intolerance.
Boy, it almost sounded as if you were being prophetic. I'm only 5'3" and you fear me? Wow, amazing how words of tolerance invoke fear into the hearts of the fearful.
Anyhow, I still thank you for the exchanges.
Justifying that the deaths of children from starvation is some sort of test your god has set up for you and your cult followers is a mindset to be feared and loathed.
Napoleon was also a short man. What does size matter when the words and actions are so filled with hate and contempt for the fellow man?
OK, I'll play if it makes you happy. Once again. Go back through all my posts in their entirity and find one single post that was filled with hatred and intolerance. Just one in it's entirity. You won't find it in my words. I have always tried to reach across the aisle in patience and understanding. Always. I am saddened, though, that the wall of pride is thick and high among so many of the children of men.
I have always respected everyone's right to express their own opinions and thoughts. I celebrate it. To me it's a gift given to all. I have no need to strike out at another person whether it be in person or online.
I hope you are having a wonderful day!
One doesn't need to go back through your posts to observe the hatred and intolerance you preach, they are clear as day in most every post you pen. No one expects you to understand that as you've been indoctrinated to believe the horrors you spout. Such are the dangers of cult followings.
Hence, we are forced to tolerate your hatred and intolerance to others who do not share your twisted cult beliefs. That doesn't mean though we have to like it and can't comment on it, though.
Agreed then. This is a post to all who read this. Please do a little digging into all my posts and please establish any in which I have shown hatred and/or intolerance. Please show any post in which my words have not been in the spirit of learning, understanding, patience and especially tolerance. Anybody, please. I sincerely want to know and evaluate my own words where I have caused someone to despise me so. Please, anyone.
Reaching across the aisle is exactly what I do day in and day out.
Ah there you are. You didn't reply to me on the other thread, I didn't think you were gonna reply to me here either.
But actually, what you seem to be saying is that your church chooses to believe in the testimony of its leaders over the translations of the experts who have determined that the scraps of papyri (sp?) used by Smith to get those translations actually are like egyptian funereal poems.
Avoiding all smart-aleck type remarks, I just don't get that.
Civility here. I've never given a smart-aleck remark. I have already stated that we are strongly encouraged to ponder and pray about all counsel given by our authorities and not follow blindly. We are to personally study as well which is something most religions do not want their people doing.
All original manuscripts were papyrus. That is the writing parchment of the time. All of the Bible was, at one time, a series of letters, records and epistles.
I am sorry about your other forum post. I have not seen it but will look for it.
Oh I wasn't suggesting you would give a smart-aleck remark, I was merely refraining from them myself.
You fail to answer -or even address- the question however. Is it not true that the only known remaining fragments which Smith reportedly used to translate his 'pearl of great price' was later translated by experts and found to contain egytptian burial poems or some such?
I think Moses was a stoner. This is why he wrote the commandments in stone. I think there is a link.
Wata ya think the "Burning Bush" Was?
And Moses is actually a"Ebonics"term that translates to"MO'E"as in "I shall instruct you further after I visit the "Burning Bush again.
Apparently, there was no one other than Mo who really knew the truth. Imagine that, how do we know he didn't make up the whole thing? Similar to Joseph Smith (the con man) when he made up the book of Mormon except Smith's brother (also in the con game)vouched for him.
Funny no one has ever questioned Moses's credibility in his assertions. Sounds a lot like modern adherents.
You wouldn't know a prophet if they bit you in the butt!
Well if the lynch mod says you're a con, well hell, their the voice of reason! Always go with what the mob says!
Smith was a well known con man involved in many schemes to separate others from their money. You would have liked him though!
He was a prophet of God and he was martyred. Do you feel he deserved to die? How well do you know the book of Mormon? It would seem that he went through alot of trouble to con people.
I have read Smith's book and also his history. His dealings in the con game are well documented. I doubt seriously you know how the Bible itself was compiled, nor who did the editing.
Did you know the Dead Sea scrolls contain the books left out of the modern Bible? They just didn't fit in, it seems. And who decided Moses was a prophet? Do you know anyone who vouched for him?
Well first I'm not offended and I'm a member of the LDS church. I've heard it all before.
I actually made a special trip to Chicago to view the scrolls at the Museum of Science and Industry. There is so much we don't know and will know in time.
Actually the Muslims have done that and continue to do that to this day.
This is true, and the Christians do the same for the Muslim prophets
I do the poor guy was wet all the time with no one to chat with but animals. sigh.
Experts don't believe Moses did write the first five books of the Bible, and goldenpath would you mind sharing with us what 'other' writings you say Moses was responsible for?
As a member of the CBMC when younger I also saw the dead sea scrolls and even had them explained to me by the then director of archaeology Clifford Wilson, who was also a member of the Christian Businessmen's Committee and our guest inauguration speaker.
Even if Moses etched the Ten Commandments in stone, no one could read them. The people were illiterate. There were no schools in the wilderness and possibly no written language anyway.
How's everybody doing tonight?
Maybe Moses will come over to my place tomorrow and part the foot of snow blocking my truck
3 in the arvo here and I am going good! No snow about 90 in your language, I have a fan on.
arvo? that's a new one to me...
This is our first snow since x-mas so I'm not complaining. I'm just not sure how I'll get to work tomorrow.
I may have to have our delivery truck pick me up
arvo, sorry okker for afternoon. You could try a couple of dozen cold cans of fosters and piss your way out! Saw it on a movie once.... very funny!
Doing well Jen. I can only hope you are too.
It's not too bad here for weather. Most of the snow has disappeared, but suppose to get some on Wednesday.
Heya Jen, hang in there. Only 5 more weeks of winter!
I am more interesting in knowing what the church is hiding. I know they are hiding Jesus' work, at least some of it. Not all of it is in the bible.
There are only certain things written about him, and NONE of it was written by him, yet the church has 4 books of his which are not in the bible.
These 4 books from what I've learned through research have NOTHING to do with religion and cannot be converted to religious text. Hence, the reasoning for them not being in the bible.
As for Moses, it's a story without any validity. It carries no water whatsoever, because Jesus' work deemed that religion's god was fake and/or not real.
You find something amusing?
I do find your laughter to be quite funny, in and of, itself.
If you knew half of what I know about Jesus' work, and opened your damn eyes, plus used a little common-sense, you might actually figure it out.
If you're interested in challenging me. I suggest you actually take up putting the doctrines of your sad religion to the test, just like a scientist does to their work.
You would find the doctrines are just as fake and anti-life, as the pathetic god you worship.
And, sorry to burst your bubble. Jesus was a human male. No divinity in his blood. Just a normal person, who saw through the hoax known as religion.
I've already posted on Moses, but I will post on the rest of it.
You are correct in more than one way. There are a great many things not included in the Bible of Jesus Christ. Why? You have answered it time and time again. Power. After the time of Christ and the Apostles the early church tried to pick up the pieces in the council at Nice. They wanted and desired control over the people. The wanted blind followers. In so doing they omitted much of Christ's teachings. Teachings involving man's agency and will as well as potential.
This is why I am so grateful for the Book of Mormon. It is a record of Christ upon this continent, without omissions. It complements and clarifies much of the difficult passages in the Bible.
So, you are correct.
Too bad no one saw the angel Maroni or the golden records from whence Smith "copied" the book of Mormon. This always seems the case when a prophet is concerned. What about the polygamy laws Smith advocated? Sounds like a real religious guy, huh?
Like many others, he had the ability to convince people he talked to God. If he did write Genesis, he borrowed heavily from previous religions and myths which predated the Bible. Like any other person who claims contact with a supernatural being, without any collaboration by others, he is suspected of making things up for his own need of power and influence.
I wish the Bible (the good parts) was true, but there's no way of knowing. Unless you are privileged to received revelations, of course!
I realize you've been asking a lot of questions more than pointing to anything specific yourself. So, I'm curious your understanding of it?
Lots of sites, I just happened to click on this one.
The name cannabis is generally thought to be of Scythian origin. Sula Benet in Cannabis and Culture argues that it has a much earlier origin in Semitic languages like Hebrew, occurring several times in the Old Testament. He states that in Exodus 30:23 that God commands Moses to make a holy anointing oil of myrrh, sweet cinnamon, kaneh bosm, and kassia. He continues that the word kaneh bosm is also rendered in the traditional Hebrew as kannabos or kannabus and that the root "kan" in this construction means "reed" or "hemp", while "bosm" means "aromatic". He states that in the earliest Greek translations of the old testament "kan" was rendered as "reed", leading to such erroneous English translations as "sweet calamus" (Exodus 30:23), sweet cane (Isaiah 43:24; Jeremiah 6:20) and "calamus" (Ezekiel 27:19; Song of Songs 4:14).
Further down it speaks of Moses specifically.
God talked to Moses out of a bush that burned with fire (Exodus 3:1- 12). After Moses brought the Israelite people out of Egypt he returned to Mt. Sinai at which time God made a covenant with Moses in which the Ten Commandments were revealed. Exodus 19:8 describes the conditions at the time of this covenant.
Exodus 19:8 "And Mount Sinai was altogether on smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
The Mysterious smoke mentioned in the covenant on Mt. Sinai is also referred to as a cloud. Exodus 24:15 "And Moses went up into the mount, and a cloud covered the mount. 16 And the glory of the Lord abode upon Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.
Now that must have been one heck of a buzz.
It goes on if anyone wishes to read more.
I would agree. He would be absolutely wasted and probably would be lucky if he could be able to carry the tablets.
It probably took him 30 years just to get down from the mt.
Maybe that's why he ended up breaking the first set.
I'm turning in. 'Nite all.
Yes, have a peaceful lovely night, we will joust with the foe another day... although I may joust a little longer, it is only 5pm here.
Who vouched for Moses?????????????? It sure as heck wasn't Edward G Robinson or Yul Brenner...So let it be written,So let it be done!
i love Nefretiri
"I will NOT hear unhappy things today!"
she sure put that slave woman in her place, heh
The thing I've often wondered about in the story of Moses is, where is the other evidence?
The only evidence he existed is in the Torah. every other book, even the modern "Inspired" works, rely on that. Outside of that, the Egyptians were excellent historians so why is there no record of the seven Plagues? Especially why is there no independent account of the death of the firstborn? Why is there no Egyptian record of a slaves revolt and the army being drowned in the pursuit?
Nowhere is there an ancient Egyptian account, in their Heiroglyphics or anywhere else to give some credibillity to the tale.
To believe that Moses was writing while he and the rest of the released Egyptian slaves were wandering in the wilderness is not very realistic.........
These books that are attributed to him were, in my opinion, obviously written after the establishment of the Kingdom of David........when there are elites being trained in the art of writing, and whee there is time and resources to create manuscripts.......and after the reestablishment of Jerusalem following the release of Babylonian held Jews (those from the Kingdom of Jerusalem and not the Kingdom of Israel)..
We should notice that Moses actually denied a lot of not so God worshipping ones from entering into the Promised Land using the Ten Commandments tablets. So, in Modern times, all are qualified for heaven just because they are of certain ethnic types are just bogus belief.
Don't you wish Moses is around now to take care of business for us?
Goldenpath....if you are somehow supporting the idea that pre-European intervention American peoples were visited by Jesus I urge you to reevaluate your evidence....
But I realize beliefs are beliefs.....If this is one of yours, I would love to see you try to convince someone of Native American descent this point....especially one who knows his/her culture and history....
Actually, my wife is Native American and so I am well versed in their lore. In hearing and studying their lore first hand from them it goes hand-in-hand with the doctrines I have presented here.
He has people all over the planet. It is hardly unreasonable that He would visit them as well and minister to them. The Bible is a record of the Holy Land. That's awesome. The Book of Mormon is a record of His ministry to the Americas. I wholly support that someday a record may be found somewhere else to support that He ministered to the peoples there.
The key is to keep you mind open to possibilities.
As far as re-evaluation I have been studying for decades. I am well aware of the doctrines.
I've read your posts....and I do not ready anything with evidence.....one can claim that the Atlantic was crossed by Biblical identities....but there is no proof...
I have looked at the golden tablets.....and have spoken to MesoAmerican experts at UCLA....there is no proof..
I'm reading through the books of Nephi now......and don'tsee how they can be used...beyond someone with blind faith......and blindness is never a good thing..
In my opinion, the Book of Mormon is largely a lifting of the King James Bible.......in the frontier of America....these themes are so easy to see within the writings.......Americans recreating their own form of Christianity, much like William Walker was running around recreating his version of the United States....
I will remain open minded to you goldenpath....I want to see you make your case....
What native nation does your wife hail from, if I may ask?
I am not here to make my case. If that were so I'd have a separate forum for that.
Study and prayer - with the sincerity and want to know. This is the only way to gain your own truth as to whether or not my words and the words of the scriptures I've mentioned are true. I don't expect anyone to believe me blindly. That would be an insult to you and me. It took twenty years for me to accept and recognize a "different" kind of evidence. It does not manifest itself in a test tube or a club over the head. It manifests within the heart. It creates a change in countenance and thought. When this happens, then you know you've found what you've been looking for.
I'm sorry, but I cannot afford anyone the answers they seek in the form they desire. I no longer seek the "test tubes" of life and I offer no answers that dwell within them.
All I can offer is my advice that you continue to read the account a chapter at a time and pray, with sincerity, that you may have that "yes" or "no" to it's validity. Exercise your right to know and utilize a grain of faith to ask Him who really has all answers. You want to know and you deserve to know, but the answers will only come to a humbled heart that really desires to know.
Sorry if this doesn't help but it's really the best help available.
I respect your perspective.....but hope that, in time, it can be broadened...
While I believe that universal concepts are within humanity, and the larger world, I think to place them within the rubric of a specific religious sect, regardless of the type, is a mistake...
I agree with Mike. Your method could be practiced with any text and one could convince oneself they have received divine words.
I respect your feelings but unfortunately, this type of research is the same as no research at all. More like self-hypnosis, I would think. Since you have nothing more than your own speculations, I will not trouble you with questions requiring facts, proof, or logic. Thanks anyway!
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