Fatwa to working Muslim women

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pisean282311posted 14 years ago
The largest Muslim seminary in India, Darul Uloom of Deoband, has issued a fatwa against working Muslim women, saying working with men is not Islamic.

The fatwa says it is unlawful for Muslim women to do any job in government or private institutions that entails men and women working together and women having to talk to men without the veil.

The Deoband clerics say it is clearly mentioned in the Shariat that women should wear the veil in office and should not mix with male colleagues.

what are your views on it?
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  khmohsinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The way you have mentioned this Fatwa is misleading.
  There is a difference between "working with men" and "mixing with men."
  "mixing with men" means useless friendships that can lead to vulgarity, going to dance parties etc.
  Islam prohibits such immoral activities that can lead to an un-balanced social setup.
  Otherwise, simply working is not an objection.
  This forum is too limited to explain the ethics of Islam, but in short, I will say that are in the very benefit of womens and even many western women , who are not yet muslim, are recognizing this fact.
  I will write in detail sometime later, but be positive. We should not go in opposition, to anything, so much deep that we may feel it hard to accept even the positive aspects of that thing.
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  pisean282311posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  @mohsin i have not myself made about comments..i took it from news website and i wanted to know more about it?
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  CMHypnoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Why on earth shouldn't women and men be friends and what is 'vulgar' about going to a dance party?
  
  Seems to me to be the same old thing - a bunch of men trying to tell women how to lead their lives. Newsflash - women have as much right as men to lead their lives exactly as they choose!
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  pisean282311posted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  skyfireposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And who are you to decide on why they shouldn't join parties and vulgarity ? What you consider as vulgarity is not the case with all of us. Giving birth to 4-8 kids for the sake of religion is vulgarity for me, what ya think on that. Want to justify this ?
  
  lol, unbalanced setup ? let me guess bombing on non-islamic regions and killing non-islamic is not unbalanced setup, i see. Again why should islam decide what is good and bad for the world ?
  
  So men in islam wants to dictate what women should do and don't ? and this is not slavery right ?
  
  after all this mess, there are any ethics of islam ? enlighten me.
  
  blind faith at it's best.
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  pisean282311posted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "So men in islam wants to dictate what women should do and don't ? and this is not slavery right ?"
  
  Slavery is exactly what Islam is.
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  leebertteaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Why do we care what people believe? Don't they have a right to belive what they want?
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So, you aren't aware of the last 2000 years of constant holy wars in which believers kill each other over why they care what people believe?
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  NightEmpressposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So why do you care ?
  
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Because the holy wars continue today and are destroying mankind. See current events.
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  NightEmpressposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not only the Holy Wars are destroying mankind. That's a very simplistic way of putting it.
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Do you have a point?
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  NightEmpressposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No. I have a period.
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Religion, in general, has pervaded all of our societies for centuries. Religion removes the ability to reason. We have molded our societies based on the religious mindset, with no reason or rationale. It is far more complicated than just having to deal with their holy wars, too.
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  leebertteaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  People kill each other for many reasons, if not religion, it's money, land, or water. No one is going to change that.
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  A defeatist. Give in to the killing. Do nothing.
  
  I was under the impression we had laws against killing. So yes, we did change that.
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  leebertteaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not a defeatist, a realist. Of course we have laws against killing and ironically we even impose the death penalty for it. So has this stopped killing? Obviously not, though it may perhaps have given someone contemplating murder pause. That is really the best we can do.
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I would disagree.
  
  You'll find prisons are full of believers. That should account for your misunderstanding.
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  CMHypnoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Trouble is the men get to believe and the women get to toe the line - and being stoned to death, beaten or otherwise abused if they dare to have ideas of their own
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  NightEmpressposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And they cut thieves' right hands, so ? It's their Religion and Philosophy . In USA you have the death penalty.How many people have been wrongly killed ? To each its own.
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  CMHypnoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not from the US! In the UK, we do not have the death penalty and I personally would never vote for it's return.
  
  So as a woman, you think that it is ok for other women to be stoned to death? Or that enforced female circumcision is ok? Religious beliefs are one thing, but violence and abuse of human beings in the name of religion is another
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  NightEmpressposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Of course I'm against ! Just as I'm against any violence. But all the religions have their dirt. What about the Inquisition ? Or any war named in the Bible ?
  And abuse of human beings is a must of any religion.
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  CMHypnoposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think the difference is that this is going on today. Also, it's not just the way some (not all by any means) Muslim's offer disrespect and violence to women, but I feel the same way about any religion that tells people what they can think, wear, behave and then abuses them if they do not conform.
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am in favor of this law!
  
  More jobs for men!
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  pisean282311posted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  errum fattahposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  c if there is nobody for women, means she's widow and she also having kids than she's allowed to work and go out of home. but if there is anybody for the serve of home than she's not allowed.
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  pisean282311posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  may be it is ur opinion...bcoz there are lots and lots of muslim woman exceling in their careers and they are not widow...even ur country has women minister now..in website called arab news ,there is section on top 100 woman enterprenuers..
  
  the more woman are empowered , the more we would see betterment of the world as per my opinion...
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  kerrygposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, even within the Muslim world there is a tremendous variety in interpretation of the passages concerning dress and women's rights in the Quaran.
  
  My husband's female relatives all consider themselves faithful and devout Muslims, but almost all of them work outside the home and none of them wear veils or head coverings of any kind except during formal prayer. They mingle freely with unrelated men, though they are definitely more conservative about what types of interactions are allowed than most Americans would be.
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  pisean282311posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  what does quran say about dress of woman?..is burqa/hijab compulsory ?
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  errum fattahposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  islam says women to hide her face including body, this is in the davantage of women bcuz women feels comfortable when men's sight is not following her. hijab is a difference b/w muslim women and non muslim women. we are proud of it. if u wants more detail and if u r intrested then u should find about surah ehzab its complete guidness for womenin islam.
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  do you cover your face completely?
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  errum fattahposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  alhamdulillah i cover my face completely, thanks to Almighty Allah who made me able for this good deed. u knw, last year i dont use to cover my face i just cover my body but i was feeling shame of it, than i once prayed Allah to make me able for it and then soon Allah accepted my prayer and now alhamdulillah im a hijabi.
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  pisean282311posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  i just wanted to know whether it is in quran that woman have to hide her face including body ?..i know many muslim woman and dont see this practice in my country ...atleast with urban women...so i asked that may be it is not compulsory and more about arab tradition than about religion?..
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  errum fattahposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  no its not the arab tradition its in the religion and women have to follow it.
  i know nowadays most of women had left this kind thing. its very sad point tht is y muslims r now backward bcuz they had stoped following islam.
  
  so the hijab! did u learned quran including surah ahzab? if u did than u would know abt the hijab and burakhas. well, women have to hide her face bcuz face is a root cause of all problems . this is not am saying this is wat the religions says.
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  why is the picture on your profile one of a woman who is breaking the laws of islam by not covering her face?
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  errum fattahposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  lol! well, thts not me.... its just a model but her appearance shows tht she's a muslim women, i searched abt pics of women in hijab but everywhere the women's eyes were beautifull so i putted this pic, i think its normal.... u mind it?
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  no.. i dont mind.. i like women!!!
  
  but if she was walking down the street like that in an islamic country, would she be breaking a religious law?
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  errum fattahposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  depends upon the country's laws, there r many other muslim countries in which the hijab is not law but if tht woman was walking like this in saudi arab than she had broken the laws. u know abt the laws in saudi arab. and one more thing, if men had teased woman in saudi arab than he would b also punished. i think this law is a good and fantastic law.
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  and by posting this particular picture online here, would some very strict muslims say that you are somehow breaking a relgious law (although of course it is just a picture)
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  errum fattahposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  no i dont think tht they will say..
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  errum fattahposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  bcuz i think tht everybody has right to express his thoughts, so the pic, first its not real so y should muslims will say tht am breaking laws of islam. i guess u thought tht islam is a difficult religion..is it so?
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  NightEmpressposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And you're not real as well. If you were what you say you are, you wouldn't be posting here. It's not allowed.
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  errum fattahposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  i didn't understand, what do u mean?
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  FranyaBlueposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Pisean..If you are interested in what the Quran has to say about covering, here is a good site to read...
  
  http://www.muhajabah.com/niqabdalils.htm
  
  Some of it is a bit long winded but if you can get through it then it explains things quite well.
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Islam also states that women are not to talk to strangers who are of the male persuasion. You are doing that here. What do you have to say about that?
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  crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think we're allowed to stone her.
  
  Watch the movie the Stoning of Soraya (based on a true story), and we'll see how well you still support your Shari'a. Islamic countries were much better off before the Shah was overthrown.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend crmhaske
  
  There is no stoning mentioned in Quran.
  
  Thanks
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  crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It is in the Shari'a. That is what this thread are about, not the Qu'ran. You'd think they'd be one and the same - but they aren't.
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/the_q … on_stoning
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  errum fattahposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  (Q).... wat u told tht im not allowed to talk with strangers,... so for the kind information am not talking to u, u cannot listen my voice, u can't c me.... so now in the world where its stupid???
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  FranyaBlueposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Salam errum
  
  I think Islam allows women to work as it is advised to employ house helpers/cleaner/cooks etc and wet nursing is also allowed in Islam. So even if the woman has a full family to take care of...if she can afford to employ help or if she has family willing to help then there is nothing wrong with it.
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  errum fattahposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  u know another point, tht women should also study hard and more science and she should become a doctor bcuz there r many personal diseases in womans which the men can't understand and the patient can't show it to men so i think tht most of women should work hard for it. isalm had also allowed.
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
I know where it comes from. They get it out of the quoran, just like Christians pull their narrow minded stuff from the bible
The quoran is written like the bible, you can make it attack any person at any time with the text therein.

Simple minds that's all.
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  Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL @ atheists talking of "simple minds"!
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Hauntyposted 14 years ago
And just what do these Islamic scholars know about real life?

If God knew everything why would SHE have given her teachings in a book format that is clearly open to interpretation?

Anyway some say that this fatwhatever is not always reliable (as in in accordance with the book).
http://islam.about.com/od/law/g/fatwa.htm
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  pisean282311posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  but my friend this is not coming from someone , it is from deoband..the biggest seminary in India.
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FranyaBlueposted 14 years ago
imo as a Muslim woman, the whole purpose of wearing Hijab/veil is so that we can go out and freely interact with the rest of the community and not be seen for just our appearance but for what we can contribute to society.

What I'm trying to say is...What would be the point of women having to cover if they were never going to be exposed to other men?
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  Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Is that why men are forced to wear them too?
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aka-djposted 14 years ago
Why cover their faces anyway. If God (or allah in this case) wanted womens faces to not be seen, wouldn't he have covered it with hair or some other natural covering?

Why don't men have the same requirement too then?

The Bible makes no rules about womens faces needing covering.
Although there is an example where a man (Moses) had to wear a veil to cover his face.

Just curious!
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  FranyaBlueposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi aka, my reply is a bit late but anyway....
  
  "If God wanted womens faces to not be seen, wouldn't he have covered it with hair.."
  
  "Why don't men have the same requirements.."
  
  In Islam, men are required to grow their facial hair.
  
  But actually the Quran doesn't mention covering of the face for women.
  
  So the reality seems to be that Men MUST cover their faces with hair but women don't necessarily have to cover their faces with cloth - only if they want to
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(Q)posted 14 years ago
Misogynist oppression. It isn't "immoral" for people to get together.

Newsflash to Muslim men, women are people too.
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  NightEmpressposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Every religion has its own rules. Who cares ? You don't have to live by those rules, do you ?
  So leave them alone with their beliefs !
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I do have to live by rules created by believers who mold those rules from their holy books.
  
  Catch up on current events.
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  Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah! If it's not you being stoned to death what do you care?
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  NightEmpressposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I do care. but I can't do anything about it. Are you doing something about it ?
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  Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well, don't worry about it then. At least you are ok.
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  NightEmpressposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So ? What are you doing about it ? I'm really interested in your answer !
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  Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm going to point out what's wrong when I think it's wrong. I'm going to continue to work with Muslim women pursuing education and career skills so they can be in a position to make their own choices. And I'm going to continue to let them know in respectful ways and via example that there are other ways of doing things.
  
  As for the stoning and female circumcision level of things, I'll support political leaders who support the promotion of values I agree with among our allies and taking a hard line with our enemies.
  
  How's that?
  
  Or do you prefer 'screw em' that's their problem!' indifference?
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skyfireposted 14 years ago
I pity those women who still wish to convert into such religion which ultimately converts them into slave in the name of god.
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TLMinutposted 14 years ago
Are women actually safer when they're covered? I wear baggy clothes now, it would have been nice if that were normal when I was growing up. Like in the "rude greetings" thread, men are obscene quite often. Maybe covered women don't have to hear that just for going to school or work or a friend's house.

Even better would be to tape men mouth's shut until they were home with their family.
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  pisean282311posted 14 years agoin reply to this
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Originposted 14 years ago
Could just use drugs on the human race that remove emotion. Oh wait, they made a movie of that, it's called Equilibrium. They also have killing in there, but it's less killing!
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skyfireposted 14 years ago
Person who is giving interview on tv for justification of that fatwa is saying that mens should treat their women as "bakri" (female goat). Son of b**....
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  pisean282311posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  sad..really sad...
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  you got to admit, he does have a point
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  pisean282311posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  who that t.v. guy?...
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  yeah.. some of the best and most loving relationships I know of are like that...
  
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  pisean282311posted 14 years agoin reply to this
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andromidaposted 14 years ago
Fatwa itself,on working women is unlawful
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  so are we saying we could proclaim a Fatwa on a Fatwa?
  
  I kind of Double or Inverse Fatwa?
  
  I think the last time I saw an Inverse Fatwa pulled off was in game 5 of the 1983 NBA finals
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  andromidaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You got my point. Fatwa upon Fatwa,then another one and so on...there should be a world cup for issuing Fatwa
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  do you remember Nadia Comaneci's triple Fatwa at the Montreal Olympics in 1976?
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That was a Thinwa then, now she's a Fatwa.
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  age will do that to you
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  andromidaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Please enlighten me greek
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Here is Nadia pulling off her famous Fatwa... she wen't right into a double twist, followed by a hijab, and finished her routine with a backwards jihad
  
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  andromidaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you for this excellent hub topic.
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  pisean282311posted 14 years agoin reply to this
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paarsurreyposted 14 years ago
HI friends

"Fatwa" means an opinion; it is just an opinion of the Deoband. An opinion is always an opinion. It is not mentioned in Quran; if it is mentioned, please quote the text from Quran with the context, at least five preceding and five following verses.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "A legal opinion or ruling issued by an Islamic scholar"...
  
  In other words, by one of the leaders of your religion
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friends
  
  There is no legality with Deoband; they have shown an opinion which is not binding on anyone; they have not authority to do it from Quran/Islam/Muhammad, it is a superfluous act.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  tell me, what about a fatwa issued by someone like the one against Salman Rushdie? Should those be obeyed?
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Greek One
  
  There is no such injunction in Quran; these are at best opinion, which can be countered with opinion. Anybody can express any opinion which is not binding on others.
  
  Whatever Salman Rushdie stated should have been refuted with reason. I don't think Salman Rushdie said anything which cannot be refuted; he is just an ordinary man; why bother about him so much?
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  so in your opition, fatwas against someone or something should never be obeyed... regardless of who issues them, and regardless of whom they are against?
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friends Greek One
  
  A fatwa or opinion is only an opinion; and everybody has a right to make an opinion; no compulsion.
  
  Those who obey it do it on their own responsibility; and at the end those who issue it normally mention that only God Allah knows as to what is right or wrong. In a way they shift the responsibility on to the person who act upon it.
  
  Deoband would issue a Fatwa; which need not be the same as issued by the Brailvis or the Shias or the Ahle Hadith etc; different schools of thoughts.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  so a Muslim does not need to follow any fatwa then?
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend Greek One
  
  A Muslim has to see that he does believe and act as per Quran and the Sunnah. A Muslim is to be judged by God Allah YHWH; not by these edict mongers.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  pisean282311posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  u mean to say that this deobandi fatwa wont any much impact on muslims of India?..
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  skyfireposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  really ? i see only support from islamics to this fatwa and new law of conversion. You guys just defend your religion at all cost without thinking about human rights. Nowhere you opposed this decision cause that way you'll talk against one of your brother-in religion. I like this double edge arguments from islamics like you.
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  FranyaBlueposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Skyfire
  
  My first reply to this was against the fatwa....I basically said that there is no point making a woman cover up at work AND stop her from working with men....if there were no men around then they wouldn't need to cover.
  
  Just to clarify my thoughts on the fatwa....it is stupid and doesn't make sense to say women are not allowed to work with men, it contradicts the purpose of wearing hijab....I think a lot of the religious leaders use their positions to manipulate people and too many people just do as they are told without questioning.
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  skyfireposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sure you've seen the interview of deoband pr person on tv. If this is where preaching is leading then i'm sure this will definitely hurt islam more than it helps.
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  FranyaBlueposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, what some Muslims do in general these days is usually more hurt than help. I don't claim to be the most knowledgable on Islam but I do know that Muslims are supposed to walk the middle road..neither to forget God completely nor to be too extreme in worship. But I guess some don't know where to draw the line.
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  pburgerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What you say also applies to Christians. Do you condemn people who use the Christian faith to wage war? Like G W Bush...
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  pburgerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  For teaching me that' "Fatwa" means an opinion', thank you once again friend paarsurrey
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andromidaposted 14 years ago
I few minutes back my googling resulted the following keywords on Fatwa:

islamic fatwa
fatwa online
fatwa definition
fatwa center
fatwa mickey mouse
fatwah
fatwa dictionary
rushdie fatwa

Fatwa is a very popular keyword.I am planing to write a hub on
e-commerce Fatwa:)
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  pisean282311posted 14 years agoin reply to this
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LeanManposted 14 years ago
I think it would be a great idea.....

There would be more jobs for the men!

Women could stay at home and ensure the moral character of the next generation..

Or is that sexist?

OK... change of tack here... women work, men stay at home and use the playstation, watch movies, drink with their buddies..
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crmhaskeposted 14 years ago
TL:DR

But, I would like to say that Islam today is a long way from Islam before the 19th. Prior to the 19th century Islamic women had MORE rights than their Western counterparts. This obviously is not so today. When Christians had their dark ages, Muslims were prospering - now it's the Islamic turn for the dark ages.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend crmhaske
  
  But with the advent of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Promised Messiah, the seed of reviving of Islam has been sowed; which in fact is the Revival of All-the-Revealed-Religions as they all have in fact last the luster of a truthful Religion and are unable to coup with the only materialist outlook of the present people of the world.They all have with them the corrupted teachings of their founders; having little light in them while their founders were enlightened persons undoubtedly.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  pisean282311posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  but my friend if i am not wrong mirza ghulam ahmad is not accepted among larger muslim community...then how would u got about reviving islam when majority won't listen?
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  Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "But, I would like to say that Islam today is a long way from Islam before the 19th. Prior to the 19th century Islamic women had MORE rights than their Western counterparts. This obviously is not so today. When Christians had their dark ages, Muslims were prospering - now it's the Islamic turn for the dark ages."
  
  It was the alarmingly sudden and undeniable leap ahead in social, political, and most importantly military advancement by the once demonstrably primitive Europeans that spurred the unfortunate turn 'backwards' (to an imagined past - as these things always are) in Islam. When the guy with the gimpy leg suddenly sprints past you, you can either train harder or start running in the opposite direction and claim that was your goal all along. It's too bad really.
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  TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  CRM
  
  That is complete bullshit.
  
  That is almost as untrue as the Qu'ran itself.
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  crmhaskeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Evidently you know absolutely nothing about history.
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
So a Fatwa is just an opinion is it?

I have never heard of someone having an opinion that was "obeyed" or not before.
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skyfireposted 14 years ago
is this a joke or something ? Your islamic rule assumes that men will not get provoked if women cover their whole body completely. I wonder how islamic population is rising without such provocation
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skyfireposted 14 years ago
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alternate poetposted 14 years ago
This veil thing is getting boring now. What the flying f**k does it have to do with anyone what I wear, how I wear my beard or hair, my beliefs or the colour of my underwear if it does not hurt you !!!!

This is a not-so-thinly-veiled attack on Muslim culture and habit

and this is the first time I ever got two puns in one sentence before I even noticed

Next you will all want Australians to stop being so drunk
Americans to stop being so loud
and English to stop being so reserved !!

Rules against women wearing trousers at work have already been and gone - what is the difference with this bulldust ?
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If we can get everyone focused on something someone else is doing... This takes the focus off of what we are doing.
  We become almost invisible
  
  our agenda operates unabated
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TMMasonposted 14 years ago
wow the hookers, I mean Ladies of interest, are screwed.
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earnestshubposted 14 years ago
Suras 9 and 5, are the most violent and vile of all the Suras and are the last spoken by Muhammad.

They abrogate all previous verses in conflict with them.

Muslim apologists deceive by citing verses abrogated by verses in Suras 9 and 5.

........Much like people do with the O.T.
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  sepiaprinceposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Fatwa's are just directives and they are issued from a religious stand point.The fatwa comes with a larger debate going on in india on 30 reservations for woman in parliament.This fatwa was deplored by muslim press in india.Darul Uloom of Deoband has lost touch with reality.They still think we live in 16 century.Fortunately there are no takers for this fatwa in india.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend sepiaprince
  
  They are simply ignorant people.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  pburgerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  soumyasrajanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I have been seeing many posts by Paarsurrey!
  Most of the time he ends with the sentences
  "Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim"
  What exatly he wants to convey by this!
  
  Perhaps he must be knowing that most people will consider this behavior as a little crazy. Still he prefers this behavior.
  I wonder what exactly he wants to convey by this!
  
  Is Ahmadi same as Ahmadia Muslims?
  If that is true a similar fatwa by some sunni community in Pakistan or ruling by sheriya court in Pakistan has declared them to be nonMuslim.
  In fact if I am right it is considered a crime in Pakistan for a Ahmadia Muslim to declare himself to be Muslim. Some have been even killed for this! or punished severely by courts there.
  
  If they are declared nonMuslim what exactly he is struggling about.
  Does he realize that leave Pakistan, Muslims from any other country also did not show much support to them when such inhuman acts were committed. Even from India the so called secularist lobby in India (congress, communist socialist and their friend editors journalists etc. - which has essentially become Muslim vote bank protecting lobby) also did not show much support for them because most Muslims in India are Sunni or Shia. So was the case with so called human rights or left oriented lobbies or Muslim supporting politician's in Europe or USA etc. are these loobbies in West not just marginally better than above mentioned lobbies in India. Are all these people not more worried about votes of Shia or Sunni communities in their constituency? It does not matter whether it is India, USA or Europe.
  
  Only people who supported Ahmadias were average people in India, Europe, USA etc. who write comments or articles in news papers etc. They were mostly Hindus, Christians, Buddhists etc.
  
  But from attitude of Paarsurrey it seems he is most interested in preaching to them about him, his religion Quran etc.
  
  Some times you start wondering does he really mean what he is saying or may be he is some nonMuslim guy just making fun of this strange attitude among many from Muslim communities in some countries? They want to preach all the time to every one how right they are about every thing. While nobody seems to listen to them?
  
  Now about this fatwa by Sunni community priest in India:
  They are quite dominant now for quite long time. Because of political support by above mentioned so called secularist lobby in India, army and feudal rulers in Pakistan, money supplied to these rulers and religious organizations in Pakistan by Saudi Arabia and USA and by Saudi Arabia to similar organizations in India.
  
  (read An exceptional analysis by Nadeem F. Paracha in Dawn http://blog.dawn.com/2009/12/31/the-sch … e-fanatic/
  
  On How Pakistani society and perhaps some Muslim communities in India got converted to this extremism)
  
  But this also has been going on for more than 2 decades. From where does this Muslim organization get courage to issue such inhuman fatwas in India now?
  
  I think courage comes form daily declarations by USA army chiefs during their visits in Pakistan and Obama and others in his administration and some European leaders implying that "Taliban and other terrorist owrganisations in Pakistan are strategic assets for Pakistani army against India or Afghanisatan and they have right to retain parts of them. India and Isreal and all other countries should give up their rights on Kashmir and other lands which their Muslim Neighbouring countries want for themsleves and not ask Pakistan and other countries to stop support to terrorist organizations. They should talk peace with countries like Pakistan or other Muslim countries in their neighborhood without such guarantees , so that time being Pakistan rulers feel secure!
  
  One can understand a little worry by them about their soldiers. But how far and how one can go. Particularly how long USA may fight this war in af-pak sector where USA seems to be lost in quagmire of fighting from both sides
  (see http://hubpages.com/hub/Reasons-for-Cur … -Terrorism )
  
  For those who may not know --Taliban were created by Pakistani army and rulers with main inspiration from organizations which come under the influence of the same Darul Uloom and similar other Sunni Muslim organizations, financing by USA and Saudi Arabia etc.. Once they see that weak USA and India will support them and Congress government in India will be more worried about its Muslim vote bank and support to USA than security in the country they will issue many such fatwas. This is just a beginning.
  
  Some of us who are concerned, should also try to petition Governments in USA, India Europe to change their crazy policies, rather than just questioning here people like paarsurrey (I still wonder is he really Ahmadia Muslim? ) or Khmohsin etc.
  
  After all should USA not stop fighting a war from both sides? and should India not worry about security of its citizens first?
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  errum fattahposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  its strange! u started with religion and ended with the hate of politics...
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  soumyasrajanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I do not hate any thing, neither any religion nor politics. I just try to observe what is happening and try to learn from them and enjoy. I do some times make comments or share my views with others and enjoy dcussing my ideas with others and learning about their ideas. Hopefully some of these activities make a few things more pleasant for some of us.
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  pburgerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you sepiaprince - for another reasonable point of view
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  soumyasrajanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That is not true there are many Muslims in India also who take it seriously. Already one guy Javed Akhtar has been issued death threat.
  In past also Salman Rushidie has been troubled by Fatwa. He will suffer perhaps all his life. There were protests by Muslim organizations in India also against Danish cartoonists and calls for death to them etc.
  
  What type of organizations are these who interfere in lives of average citizens? Why should some of those who issue such fatwas be not arrested for creating such polluted sentiment which results in violence, threats etc. In whole of India threat perception has changed because of terrorist attacks by terrorists from Pakistan mainly supported by their army and feudal rulers and extremist attitudes of such Fatwa issuing Muslim organizations.
  They can act like this as I said in earlier post, because Indian left communists socialist and ruling congress party and some human rights organizations act very weak and they always find arguments of the type "this should not be taken seriously". One has to be careful with such sentiments. They are just making whole country to face security problems with their vote bank politics.
  
  Further problem is created with Obama administration from USA mainly supporting such terror promoting rulers in Pakistan and other countries.
  
  Actually this whole problem has less to do with Muslim religion but more to do with army and feudal rulers in Pakistan and some other Muslim countries c. who are mainly creating/supporting this terror and security problem in whole world by using Muslim religion as a cover. Style of Muslim religion practiced by some of these sects allows them to be used as a tool in this violent game (see quotations from Quran below by TMMason). Their dream seems to be to have a perpetual rule in their country and become world power dictating terms to USA etc. Problem is compounded by inept handling by ruling parties in USA, India, Europe etc. USA just now seems to be lost in fighting this war in af-pak sector from both sides (see some of my articles on this).
  
  It is high time we in India take seriously this menace. Such fatwas and extremist attitudes have ultimately resulted in creating security problems for average life of all citizens. Just look at airports, all over world to see the effect. People who issue such fatwas should be punished.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friends
  
  Fatwa mongers should face the law of the land they live in; if there is no such law, they should be exposed so that innocent people are not mislead.
  
  Since Fatwa is only an opinion it should be taken as such.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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TMMasonposted 14 years ago
Too bad it doesn't matter what the average muslim thinks. The Ulema have dictated the fatwa, and it is fard upon all muslim woman now.

Let the stonings begin.
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TMMasonposted 14 years ago
Islam is a Socio-Political-Religous Institution.

The politics of hate belong to Islam itself.

It is not something which can be seperated into three parts. It is a whole. It must be followed as such.

The word of Allah is complete, "Whole".

Man may not devide it.
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  errum fattahposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  u need to study abt islam bcuz watever u said abt islam is totally wrong...
  
  islam is the faith of divine guidness of humanity, its lovely, great, true, precious and much more great religion....
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  TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Listen.
  
  The Qu'ran dictates the role and rights of women within the Ummah.
  
  So take it up with Islam.
  
  That is a lawful Fatwa and you are obligated to follow it's directive.
  
  lol.. to deny that is to lie outright.
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  errum fattahposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  oh so utalking abt tht fatwa!
  
  let me clear u wat islam says abt the women who goes outside;
  
  islam didn't allowed women to participate in politics, she has to do politics in her house, she is a server of her house... islam says tht where there is woman is like heaven, u know tht woman is so sensitive she can't do politics properly bcuz she's also having less sense than man.
  
  if the woman is widow n haviung kids than she's allowed to go out of home for the serve of her family, but she has to cover her body including whiule going to work and she dont have to b frank with men, she should talk with men only in need, anyway, woman is allowed in islam to work... i think u8 should b thankfull to Allah who brought islam, bcuz of islam woman had gotten all rights... u know the condition of woman before islam? woman was treated very bad at tht time she was known as a dog or as animal, another wickedness to woman was tht, if a man gets angry with woman so he says tht now u r like my mother, n it means tht now she's banned for tht man or in other words she';s now divorced...it was not enough...the wom,an was also not allowed to marry wiht another guy, n it was a kill of woman's rights.... u should b thankfull tht islam came and exists tht kinds of laws bcuz if islam didn't came than woman now were still b treated bad like tht.....
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TMMasonposted 14 years ago
The fatwa is binding on you.

Ijma has been reached and the fatwa issued.

Must I really post all the Qu'ranic verses to support this conclusion? Will you then admit it? Probrably not.

Sura 24 - Al-Noor (MADINA) : Verse 31
And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like both eyes for necessity to see the way or outer dress like veil, gloves, head-cover, apron, etc.), and to draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms,) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers or their brother's sons, or their sister's sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islâm), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of the feminine sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allâh to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful[]

Translation : Eng-Dr. Mohsin

Sura 24 - Al-Noor (MADINA) : Verse 31
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! Turn ye all together towards Allah that ye may attain Bliss.

Translation : Eng-Yusuf Ali

Sura 24 - Al-Noor (MADINA) : Verse 31
And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.

Translation : Eng-Pickthal-Audio

There you go, have a lil read. I just posted this and am tired of repeating myself. And those are just on dress. When you combine all the restrictions on women in Islam, the Fatwa is correct.
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  soumyasrajanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi! TaMMason.
  Your detailed quotation shows that you have studied quite a bit. It is admirable indeed.
  I wish those who are arguing for this fatwa etc. and against women, had studied what they are arguing with similar patience and tried to understand first what they want to convey, before expressing it. This itself may change some of their attitudes?
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend TMMason
  
  There is no accord or Ijma on it; when did other 72 denominations join this accord? It is a lone opinion.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No.
  
  Your the only, "lone opinion".
  
  My heritical friend.
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  TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The have reached a concesus among the ulma in India they feel count.
  
  Thats is good enough for them.
  
  It is binding on all muslim woman.
  
  And the Qu'ran is fully understandable to any who wish to read it on this subject. In many translations. No one has to take my word on it friend. Your book speaks for itself.
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  soumyasrajanposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  As far as I know there is no such consensus even in India. Just now all news channels in India are showing that Javed Akhtar a well known film personality, (who must be sunni Muslim and hence perhaps is supposed to follow Darul Uloom ) has been issued a death threat, because he had expressed a sentiment against this Fatwa, in a Tv show.
  
  http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi … 934728.cms
  
  That shows how seriously such Fatwas are taken by people from this faith.
  (I am of course not so sure time being how authentic this news is , some times they are spread just to gain cheap popularity or by tv channels to gain viewers or to create pro Muslim sentiments by using such personalities- though I think most people are repulsed by such type of gimmicks any way)
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  TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I dunno man. Muslims take Fatwas very seriously. Ask Theo or Rushdie. Or any of the dozens of dead from insulting the prophet.
  
  Yeah real repulsed.
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friends
  
  It is politics against politics; religion is not involved in it. If it would have been mentioned in Quran that would have been another thing.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  errum fattahposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  tmmason!! the fatwa pisean posted, last line;
  " The Deoband clerics say it is clearly mentioned in the Shariat that women should wear the veil in office and should not mix with male colleagues."
  
  islam says women tht if she's working outside of home than she has to cover herself, and i would love to ask pisean weather she had listened tht fatwa very clearly or had just listened a bit, islam is not against of working of women but it is against of tht women who show her beauty or the things u mentioned. and i was tired by reading same verses above..
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  TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  ER...
  
  The Qu'ran commands the viel. I could care less whether women wear it or not. I believe women should be able to work outside the house.
  
  I am all for freeing the sisters from oppression. But women in Islam remind me of the black slaves which didn't want to be seperated from thier masters. For some unfathomable reason of fear or warped love.
  
  The sisters do not want to see... they remain blinded by thier viels in the name of Islam.
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It's just meposted 14 years ago
I think that any women of any religion/culture that demands them to subjugate themselves to men - should just put on chastity belts and throw away the keys. Lets see how all those so called men fare then.
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