If you are a Islamic and you hate Americans, I think you should have the courage to state why you hate Americans.
Are you Islamic Extremist that hates Americans? If so, why?
You certainly are brave but that is why you were a Marine!
The justification of Islamic Extremism has far reaching implications in what Muslims perceive as attacks on their faith, their prophet, their god and Islam itself.
As well, they don't want other countries invading and occupying their lands. Of course, it was through conquer and pillage those lands were initially taken, but that's another hypocrisy.
Considering their relationship with Jews and the West's support of Israel and those lands, America has landed itself in some hot water.
But, America is only one of many countries in which Islamic extremism is practiced. In this regard, the US is not special.
You could be brought up before the UN council on charges of defamation of religion.
I can't tell you until the plane is in the air.. I hope you understand.
I'm an EXTREMIST.
You can infer from that whatever you like.
I really don't care.
Mikelpedia states: You know a religion has a problem if...
...One of the main tenets in that religion is that to murder someone from a competing religious group is the direct path to Heaven...
...to be a follower of said religion you must obey unquestioningly, and commit murder and suicide for the 'protection' of God...
...Said religion believes an unlimited, all-powerful, all knowing being needs protection from a creature as pitiful as a lowly human being...
...That religion believes an unlimited, all-powerful, all knowing being needs secrets that if discovered by some few 'evil' pitiful human beings, could cause the destruction of said all powerful, all knowing, unlimited supreme being...
I am neither if that helps you with the survey
I am a Muslim, but I not an extremist nor I hate Americans, but I do not agree with the foreign policy of America. I think no country should interfere in the affairs of another country. Humans are born free and no nation should overtake other by brute force.
Be careful marine, they tried once again to kill that Danish guy with an axe and knife.
I only read about the episode this morning. A Somali agent of Al Quaeda broke into his home yelling Blood! and Revenge! I think and the old man had a safe room he fled to and alerted the police who came in and shot the guy when he threatened them. So just be careful what you do is all I'm saying. I know you are not stupid. Happy New Year as well.
Happy New Year to you as well. Rawlus, I have a higher chance of dying in a car wreck everyday than I do of an Islamic Extremist hunting me down. I am open arms to any extremist that has courage to come to my home, let along post a comment on the thread. lol
It does not not matter what, "one individual Muslim", states.
The fact that their religion not only CONDONES, but also PROMOTES LYING AND DECEPTION in the persuit of the advancement of Islam.
Sort of scues the field in regards to any edict against lying and so on, depending upon the circustance and situation.
That makes it all if'y.
Unless you know that "individual" really well.
How well do you really know someone.
Also, if it came down to your friends, or your faith.
Which would you chose?
I am not saying "all" Muslims lie and decieve.
Just that there is a, "real question of motive", involved in this question, itself.
There are two forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, "TIQIYYA" AND "KITMAN".
These circumstances are typically those that advance the cause of Islam, in some cases by gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.
The Qur'an: This is "ISLAM speaking", NOT I...
Qur'an (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.
Qur'an (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves."
Qur'an (9:3) - "...Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters..." The dissolution of oaths with the pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway.
Qur'an (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.
Qur'an (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts"
Qur'an (66:2) - "Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths"
Qur'an (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means deceit. If Allah is deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same.
Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be, "COMPELED", to deceive others for a greater purpose.
From the Hadith: AGAIN, THIS IS "ISLAM" SPEAKING, NOT I...
Bukhari (52:269) - "The Prophet said, 'War is deceit.'" The context of this is thought to be the murder of Usayr ibn Zarim and his thirty unarmed men by Muhammad's men after he "guaranteed" them safe passage (see Additional Notes below).
Bukhari (49:857) - "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar." Lying is permitted when the end justifies the means.
Bukhari (84:64-65) - Speaking from a position of power at the time, Ali confirms that lying is permissible in order to deceive an "enemy."
Bukhari (52:271) - Recounts the murder of a poet, Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, at Muhammad's insistence. The men who volunteered for the assassination used dishonesty to gain Ka'b's trust, pretending that they had turned against Muhammad. This drew the victim out of his fortress, whereupon he was brutally slaughtered despite putting up a ferocious struggle for his life.
From Islamic Law: AL'SHARI"A... shhould I repeat myself... this is, "ISLAM SPEAKING, NOT I"
Reliance of the Traveler (p. 746 - 8.2) - "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible (N:i.e. when the purpose of lying is to circumvent someone who is preventing one from doing something permissible), and obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory... it is religiously precautionary in all cases to employ words that give a misleading impression...
"One should compare the bad consequences entailed by lying to those entailed by telling the truth, and if the consequences of telling the truth are more damaging, one is entitled to lie.
SO here is a few things in summary:
Muslims are allowed to lie to unbelievers in order to defeat them. The two forms are:
Taqiyya - Saying something that isn't true.
Kitman - Lying by omission. An example would be when Muslim apologists quote only a fragment of verse 5:32 (that if anyone kills "it shall be as if he had killed all mankind") while neglecting to mention that the rest of the verse (and the next) mandate murder in undefined cases of "corruption" and "mischief."
Though not called Taqiyya by name, Muhammad clearly used deception when he signed a 10-year treaty with the Meccans that allowed him access to their city while he secretly prepared his own forces for a takeover. The unsuspecting residents were conquered in easy fashion after he broke the treaty two years later, and some of the people in the city who had trusted him at his word were executed.
Another example of lying is when Muhammad used deception to trick his personal enemies into letting down their guard and exposing themselves to slaughter by pretending to seek peace. This happened in the case of Ka'b bin al-Ashraf (as previously noted) and again later against Usayr ibn Zarim, a surviving leader of the Banu Nadir tribe, which had been evicted from their home in Medina by the Muslims.
At the time, Usayr ibn Zarim was attempting to gather an armed force against the Muslims from among a tribe allied with the Quraish (against which Muhammad had already declared war). Muhammad's "emissaries" went to ibn Zarim and persuaded him to leave his safe haven on the pretext of meeting with the prophet of Islam in Medina to discuss peace. Once vulnerable, the leader and his thirty companions were massacred by the Muslims with ease, belying the probability that they were mostly unarmed, having been given a guarantee of safe haven (Ibn Ishaq 981).
Such was the reputation of Muslims for lying and then killing that even those who "accepted Islam" did not feel entirely safe. The fate of the Jadhima is tragic evidence for this. When Muslim "missionaries" approached their tribe one of the members insisted that they would be slaughtered even though they had already "converted" to Islam to avoid just such a demise. However, the others were convinced that they could trust the Muslim leader's promise that they would not be harmed if they simply offered no resistance. (After convincing the skeptic to lay down his arms, the unarmed men of the tribe were quickly tied up and beheaded - Ibn Ishaq 834 & 837).
Today's Muslims often try to justify Muhammad's murder of poets and others who criticized him at Medina by saying that they broke a treaty by their actions. Yet, these same apologists place little value on treaties broken by Muslims. From Muhammad to Saddam Hussein, promises made to non-Muslim are distinctly non-binding in the Muslim mindset.
Yes. I pasted and wrote. I would be an idiot to spend an hour writing what is already written on, in depth.
And there is plenty of, "Islamic", Scholars, Jurists, etc.. Who support these statements, and rulings within their own work and rulings.
So take it for what it is worth.
If anyone wants more info on this, mail me. Of course it could take a day or two to answer, or you can tell me here you sent it, and I will get it for you. I don't check my mail everyday.
Islamic doctrine promotes peace, not hatred, not war. Quoting other extremists only perpetuates the fear and misunderstanding that people already feel about this religion.
While there are countless examples of those who do not truly follow Islam, who terrorize other people for whatever reasons, I believe that if you were to make a few Islamic friends who are quiet in their lifestyle, and not the heretics that always get in the news, I think many would have a different perspective about this whole issue.
Yes Islam is divided, but generalizations about entire races and religions does nothing to help solve the problem and only makes it worse.
I have Islamic friends. I do not sympathize with them or any religion. But I respect those who are descent, good people regardless of their race or religion. I think it would be well for all of us to do the same.
That is QUOTING MOHHAMMUD AND ALLAH... NOT an "EXTREMIST".
Read it, and pay attention to WHO IS SPEAKING.
Any Muslim can read the Bible and extract all the hatred and genocide they want to just as you have extracted it from the Qu'ran. Two wrongs DON'T make a right.
I stand by what I said. Your take seems very defensive and destructive and does NOT add any value to understanding, but only stratifies differences and exaggerates intolerance.
If that's your stand, you're certainly welcome to it. Perhaps the need to be right at all costs is what you seek. If so, I think you'll find it's a terrible price to pay. You may be right, but I'd rather be doing good.
I live by the New Testament not the Old.
I am not Jewish. I am Christian, and there is nothing like Islam in the New Testamnent.
And again, "equating", the acts and issues of hundreds of years ago, (christianity), does not negate or null the fact of what Islam is like now.
And show me the muslims standing up against theier own and speaking out.
OHHH. Here they are, they are in Michigan.
Wow! Listen to what these "AMERICAN" muslims have to say about America, and their LOVE of our counntry.
Pay close attention to the LIES spoken at the end to the police, even though they all, the muslims involved, knew they were on tape.
They just don't care. hahaha.
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2009/07 … rborn.html
I am so glad to see that LOVE.
Can you feel it E?
Back to your, Scientific process of, "Equating".
You Atheists may not differintiate, but we Christians do.
"Equating", is not scientific, so find another arguement.
Observation is, though, so take a look around the world. Show me where Christians are engaged in mass murder today on the scale that Islam is.
Show me in Christian doctrine, New Testament, the words of Christ. Where Christ says, decieve, slaughter, cut their heads off and enslave them all, if they don't worship my God.
Point it out.
Allah says lie if it helps Islam....
Those are not my words.
Argue with allah and Momo.
Qur'an (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves."
Now...TMMason is trying to delude our minds with this stuff..
To begin with....how many Christians read their Bibles and know what is written inside?? Not many that I know....
With this said, the way I was raised, in my Christian home, was that all those outside of our church were evil, corrupted, and to be stayed away from. I was not able to socialize with others, I had to stay appart of the kids in my classes (elementary school) when they would do their Christmas programs (because we did not follow the pagan/idolatry holiday) and so on....
2 Corinthians 6:14..."Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?"
It's okay for Christians to say this, but not for Muslims?? tsk tsk !!!
Now, I do private tutoring for a family from Iran, and they are Muslim. Not only do they know that I am not a Christian, or have any beliefs based on some book of dogma, but there is no problem...
There is far more to Islam then what some people with their books want to make known.
What is Sufism?
With this said, the son of this family goes to a Presbyterian school, because the public schools here in Los Angeles are turning to garbage (the rich playing games with the poor)...
He is taught in class that Muslims are violent, hateful people.....and he takes it with a smile, knowing the truth...as I do..
There is nothing to fear but fear itself, and those who wish to use fear to sway people who don't think for themselves....
Mason, come out here to Los Angeles and I will introduce you to real Muslims, and we can see what it is all about....
If we follow your beliefs about Muslims, they should not want anything to do with me because I am not even a "person of the book"...but reality transcends stereotype....fortunately....
Incidentally, hatred doesn't ever need a rational reason. Hatred is rarely rational in its thinking, so asking such a question, marine, is only asking for more hatred. A better thing to do would be to ask how you and I and everyone else can get past hatred.
I disagree with you. I think that is a cowardly approach to take to just sit back and sweep hatred under the rug. I would rather expose it for the nonsense that it is. Some times it takes the irrational to expose the irrational. I don't think there is a way to get past hatred unless it is exposed.
You want to understand hatred? Well, my friend, you're not going to understand it by addressing hatred. The problem is not hatred, the problem is what has happened to the person to put them in such a position. The more you walk in another's shoes, the more you're going to develop understanding and tolerance. You don't need to understand hatred to figure that out. Get to know the person. Forget hatred. If that's your focus, then you'll just get more of it, not less.
Hatred is not the root of the problem. It's a symptom.
lol To get in a persons shoes, you gotta ask them questions. I don't like to beat around the bush, I like to get to the point. Hatred and separatism is the main motivation behind many groups actions. If you fail to recognize this, you aren't looking. I didn't say hatred is always the root, but it can be the root.
Hmmmm, I don't think hatred is the root of anything. It's always the result of something. It's all those "somethings" that produced the result of hate. Getting to the point without asking questions seems like jumping to conclusions, doesn't it? Hatred and separatism are the *result* of a history of actions and circumstances. They never occurred first, they occurred as a result.
At least that's my take as I observe things.
If a person is consumed with hate, they will likely make hateful actions and decisions.
If hate = hate, it could be the root and the result.
I can agree with you based on the idea that hate can be intergenerational. Parents teach their children to hate because it's what they believe they're supposed to, yet, all the clear reasoning is muddled. It's just a tradition to hate and the reasons are vague. However, I still maintain that hate is never the root. Not really. Perhaps on a secondary level it can appear to be the root, but I really don't believe we are born to hate. We are born to love. That's that natural part of us. Therefore, I don't see how hate can ever be a root cause. Something has to cause hate, not the other way around.
Agreed. This thread is destructive.
The simple fact is the "Qu'ran", is the Words of Allah'. Anyone who doesn't know that, hasn't a clue about ISLAM.
I have supplied the Qu'ranic verses and source info, to be as fair as possible.
I also stated plainly. I was not saying all muslims are liars.
SO?... take any complaints up with Mohhamud and Allah.
But you can check the verses and read the Qu'ran. These verses are in there, and they are, mid and late Medinian.
They themselves, "ABROGATE", (TO OBLITERATE.), many conciliatory verses that deal with NON-BELIEVERS.
That would depend on the intent of this thread.
Is it intended to allow us all to share information and research things we do not know about the subject.
While we all take the opportunity to learn from one another.
Or is the intent to denigrate and cuss at one another.
I believe it is for the most part, the intent of all participating, to learn.
Of course there are those on all sides. Who will take the opportunity to start arguements, cuss, denigrate, etc.
It is all up to us.
I mean we can be civil and discuss things without all the drama.
Can we not?
When you start out your thread with "why do you hate America" you are laying the groundwork for a fight. It's simple.
Maybe a better question would be:
"What are the grievances that Islamic people hold against Americans?"
Then, once you identified the grievances, you could begin to ask if they were justified or not.
You don't have civil discourse by beginning the conversation with embedded assumptions, convinced that the other side is wrong. And starting out with a laundry list of why Islam is evil is not a great way to do that either.
You claim you want civil discourse but your actions show otherwise.
Once again liberals want to try and understand why terrorists want to kill us. Isn't it enough that they want to?
Islamic terrorists would saw your head off on film while you are telling them "I feel your pain!"
Being weak in the face of terrorists is not the answer, destroying them is, despite how they feel!
You need to chill, pal.
What you're referring to are "interpretations" of the Quran, which is something TMMason offered and you are offering.
Therefore, TMMason is not propagating hatred, he is not insulting or lying by simply offering an interpretation of the Quran, because that's exactly what you have done.
If TMMason begins offering his own opinions of that interpretation, that would be another argument.
So, if there is some discrepancies between the interpretations, feel free to point them out rather than just spitting venom.
Your reply pre-supposes no one "hates" us.
I beg to dis-agree.
There are plenty of people who "hate" America.
And plenty who pruport to have "grievances".
Some have real issues, some have not.
And I did not post this thread.
I did not state a "laudry list", of anything other than the truth in regards to whether or not. I, or anyone, should believe everything Muslims say in regards to those so called, "greivances".
Or how about that..."I hate America!!! Death to America!!!", they are always screaming.
Should we believe that?
TM - I could start a similar thread, asking a question like "Why do Christians want to kill Muslims so much?"
It makes sense to me - after all, we've killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis in the two gulf wars.
And I could also make a list of all the ways the Christianity has caused the death and suffering of innocents, how it was used to justify slavery and the genocide of indigenous people around the world. I could even quote some pretty hair raising things from the Old Testament.
So let's say I did that. How would you react?
1 - I would simply respond to the thread, same as here.
2 - How many Iraqi civilian deaths we have been responsible for is not a settled question.
It is not our soldiers that hide behind civilians, because to die in the name of jihad, civilian or otherwise, except as a non-believer, is a blessing.
That some Islamic terrorists hide in your home and gets your entire family killed, to attack Amercan Soldiers and maybe kill some. Cause they don't always kill Americans that easy. And that is condoned by mohhammud, and all Islamic thought.
So again, thats debatable.
3 - Yes it was minipulated at one time and by some these days also to distort and justify.
I have never denied that.
But Christianity has grown in leaps and bounds in the ensueing years since true Christian teror existed. Killing in untold numbers.
Islam, it could be argued, has not.
These days most Christians and Theologions understand that. Christianity is to live in and by the words and teachings of Christ. And to represent his words and example on this earth and unto all men.
A Chistian today, or most, understand that we do not live by the Old Testament. But that it is a Hostorical record, and proof of the truth of the "Word". Which was brought to us and is, Christ, through the will of GOD.
It proves through it messages, prophecies, (for thoise who believe.), that Christ was the true Messiah and Savior of the world.
Through it, God has shown us the "end from the begginning", and documented it, to verify as we reflect on it, the accuracy and intent of the Lord God.
We do not live by the Old Testament.
It is proof of the truth of the, "Word".
You will not see a Christian today raging about the neccessity of an "Inquistion", to purge the world and the faith.
I don't see it happening, we have grown in our time on the world.
Maybe silly but I follow what's right for me and will defend right to Life regardless of color n leave behind those that hate
Yes, how about a topic Are you a Christian extremist?
According to TMMason: "Qur'an (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie."
Now, if we actually read the verse...
"Allah will not guide hose who do not believe in the Signs of Allah, and they will have a grievious punishment. Only those fabricate lies concerning Allah, and these are confirmed liars." (16-102-106)
"Whoso disbelieves in Allah after he has believed, excepting the case of one who is forced to make a declaration of disbelief while his heart rests securely in faith, but one who opens his mind wide to disbelief, on him is Allah's wrath and he shall have a grievous punishment" (107-roughly 110).
Now, Islam's beginnings...I wonder how many here know the stories....
Early Muslims, as Christians in Rome, were persecuted by the elite of Mecca, which is why Muhammad and his followers had to leave the city for Medina. This set of verses correlates to those who had to deal with the persecution of the pre-Islamic Arabic peoples who were in power.... I fail to see the point that is being made....there is what TM puts out to play with our minds....and then there is the truth if one goes out to read it.....I have my own Quran, so I don't have to go very far....I will definitely continue in this way for all of Mr. Mason's exerpts....
"Allah enjoins equity and benevolence and graciousness as between kindred, and forbids evil designs, ill-behavior and transgression. He admonishes you that you may take heed. Fulfil the covenant of Allah when you have made one; and break not your pledges after making them firm. Be not like the woman who having made strong yarn, breaks it into pieces. You make your covenants a means of increasing your influence by deceit, for fear lest one people become more powerful than another. Surely, Allah tries you therewith, and on the Day of Judgement He will make clear to you that wherein you differed. Had Allah enforced his will, He would have surely have made you all one people, but he lets go astray him who wishes it, and guides him who wishes it, and you will surely be called to account for that which you do. Make not your covenants a means of achieving ulterior purposes, or your foot will slip after having been firmly established" (16-91-98).
In terms of lying....I actually like what Plato/Socrates laid forward in the Republic...
If you are at home with your brother, and someone comes to your door and, you having answered the door, and tells you that he wants to kill your brother, will you tell this person where your brother is or will you lie? What is the greater good?
There are times for lies, and I think anyone knows that...depending on what the lie is for..
"Qur'an (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means deceit. If Allah is deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same."
"When Jesus perceived their disbelief, he asked, "Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples answered: We are helpers in the cause of Allah. We have believed in Allah, and bear thou witness we are obedient to Allah. They affirmed: Our Lord we have believed in that which Thou hast sent down and we have become the followers of this Messenger, so write us down among the witnesses"-53-54
"The enemies of Jesus devised their plans and Allah devised His plan; Allah is the best of planners. Allah reassured Jesus: I shall cause thee to die a natural death, and shall exalt thee to Myself, and shall clear thee from the calumnies of those who disbelieve, and shall placed those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Judgement."(55-roughly 57).
There is what Mason points to and misinterprets, for his own devises or out of ignorance, and then there is reality.
Choose carefully my friends....context and translation are key to knowing anything here....
Don't stereotype or buy in to someone's hype....look it up for yourself....I will be doing more, but my hands are hurting....take care all...
Mason...do your homework please...I hate to have to clean up your messes for you.
It says Jesus already knew they were lying about their belief in Allah, which they say, We believe in the Lord (The Messenger Jesus Christ). It then calls them (the disbelievers in Allah) the enemies of Jesus, because Allah is the best of planners.
Further it exalts Christ and says that those who follow Christ, (disbelievers in Allah) will be as those who believe in Christ and be forgiven as non believers in Allah.
Further, the Koran issue a decree in which it heavily states that you it would be wise to believe in the Messenger Christ. Or have Faith (as it is put in capitals in the Koran) in Christ Jesus.
So Sandra - here is the evidence that Islam doesn't want to kill all Christians. Yet you seem to hate Islam. Why?
No, this is why they not only kill other Muslims but also Christians.
And it is ridiculous that you say TMM or I are hateful or we hate Islam when these are the things that come right out of Koran.
Calling me a hater by reciting the Koran.. hmm... interesting.
I agree, Sandra.
And william needs to stop using ABROGATED verses. THEY ARE NO LONGER IN EFFECT.
All You Muslims, think "Naskh", "Obliteration".
Those verses you, william, point to, are no longer valid in regards to non-believers, or jews, or Christians.
They have ALL bee "ABROGATED" by VERSES 9,and 5.
Main Entry: ab·ro·gate
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): ab·ro·gat·ed; ab·ro·gat·ing
Etymology: Latin abrogatus, past participle of abrogare, from ab- + rogare to ask, propose a law — more at right
1 : to abolish by authoritative action : annul
2 : to treat as nonexistent <abrogating their responsibilities>
synonyms see nullify
— ab·ro·ga·tion \ˌa-brə-ˈgā-shən\ noun
Sorry peeps. Takes me a while to work my way through the posts and answer them.
Here is your proof of abrogation...
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/ab … erses.html
"mikelong... "Look it up for yourself".
That is the Qu'ran and Hadith. IT IS LOOKED UP AND POSTED FOR ALL TO SEE.
Everything I posted is Qu'ranic and A'Hadith in origin.
So here is the reply to you without clogging the thread with loooonggg posts.
Your not the only one who knows Muslims. I know more than I can count. So?...
And I can GARAUNTEE you. Every MUSLIM knows his Qu'ran and reads it quite often. And that they can quote from it randomly ands specifically, verbatim.
And that applies to 99.99% of MUSLIMS.
And the things you produced your complaints about, are in the Qu'ran, go read it and come to your own conclusion.
I have. Many times and often, to research it more to verify what I think I know.
That you know many nice Muslims, is nice.... but the whole point of Tiqiyya and Kitman, is that you believe they are all nice.
So like I said.
Take the information above as you want. I have not said in any way shape or form that anyone has to belive me.
WELL LETS SAY BELIEVE, ISLAM? AS IT IS ALL, "ISLAMIC DOCTRINE", THAT I POSTED.
So take it up with MOHHAMMUD OR ALLAH.
Have a nice day.
"Allah will not guide hose who do not believe in the Signs of Allah, and they will have a grievious punishment. Only those fabricate lies concerning Allah, and these are confirmed liars." (16-102-106)
And that verse is in regards to the poets that created verses of thier own against Mohhammud, also in regards to those that do not believe in him, and say things notin the Qu'ran about him.
NOT lying in general, NOR in regards to ADVANCING ISLAM
GO READ THE QU'RAN.
IT SPEAKS FOR ITSELF.
AND READ IT IN CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER AS IT WAS RECITED.
I didn't waste space....I provided the in between the sliced up, misinterpreted quotations that you listed...
You evidently didn't read my counters to you claims, in the Quran that is....
Are you not going to defend your claim concerning "plotting" or anything else that I clearly challenged?
Are you not going to answer why you chose to accentuate Muslims being warned to not hang around with unbelievers while you ignored that the Bible warns the same thing to Christians?
You only paint what you want, and you leave out everything else....which is why my posts were more dense...and yours....just lacking in every real knowledgeable sense....
I am willing to continue this, because this is all important....but it is obvious to me, as well as anyone who checks your work out and/or reads our exchanges carefully that you are failing to make your points, and your failing to challenge my own challenges to your claims....
And again....what is Sufism???
Can you answer my questions and specific challenges to your claims??
I am very well aware how to read the Quran....I took several courses in Islamics, and have my own right here (obviously) that I have spent time reading, as I have also read the different translations of the Bible, which I also have...
You write in capital letters, but they do not help you prove your points.
I write in the caps, because I cannot see the text in the box to post, and am not going to try to fight to bolden things.
IJust cannot do it these days.
Don't take it wrong.
As far as what I have posted, mike. I have stated all throughout it to people, to go read it and see for themsleves.
Thus the verses, #ed and all. And the A'Hadith.
If you have a different interpretation fine.
But do not insunuate I am lying to people.
I provide all the info to what I say. And my opinion is mine, as all on here know.
Nice talking to you.
A question for TM:
Let's agree that Islamic extremists exist.
How would you define Christian extremists? Who are they? What do they believe and do?
Todays, they scream God hates fagots and such as that. Also they preach like vipers instead of in a Christianly manner.
Also some extremist hate groups hide in the cloak of Christianity. And I could name alot more.
But they cause nowhere near the death and destruction of the Islamic mujahadin.
Not by a long shot.
And I do not consider every muslim a terrorist. I have many Islamic friends of all stripes.
And they freely admit this doctrine exists and is used.
So, I believe them.
But I don't see any Christian extremist, in the league of the so called, Islamic extremists.
Sorry about the caps man. I am half friggin blind from writng on computers in the dark. And I just cannot admit it to myself.
See, TM shows his weakness....
Now, I don't have to spout some kind of stereotype to tell you what Christian extremists are like, because I was a member of such a group...
Each is different, depending on the given aims of the group...
My family-based group (to give you the idea of how much influence was used on myself and my siblings and other youth in the group) was trained to believe that only our views were right...all others were wrong...and that our nation was actually the tool of Satan (the Whore of Babylon) that was going to aid in bringing in the End Times.
We were taught to not listen or be around others that were not of our group, and we were implored over and over and over to disregard everything that the world around us tried to communicate, and to only focus on our worldview.....
Its sad to grow up and believe that everyone around you is an enemy waiting to hurt and attack.....but that's how I was raised....
I was taught that Muhammad was the "false prophet" of Revelations and that Muslims were going to raise a global jihad....
And I used to buy it.....
I was taught that Jews were the enemies of the world and Jesus, and that it was their desire to destroy Christians that made the world what it is today...and the protocols of zion were always pointed to as corroboration...
I know what it is to hate...and what it is to close the mind...because I had to work my butt to change....
We did not call people names.....we were taught that homosexuality was wrong, and punishable by eternal punishment, but we did not use foul language.....
"Christian manner"???? Spend some time with the forefathers of much of American Christianity and their sermons, which can be found written, and we'll see what this "manner" actually is.....
What does history say about this?
I can continue to answer this, but I'd like to see someone else share some insight....
I blatantly showed where you claimed on thing and it was something else....
You have an ongoing agenda which has proven itself quite apparent...to speak against Muslims and to rile up Christians against them....
I don't have an agenda, except to limit or halt the flow of nonsense that many like to spread around.. which you have been doing unfortunately...
Your failure to, again, answer my specific claims points to your flaw, and I think any reader who checks on this will agree...
Promote your fear somewhere else....I am tired of it.
I am not disrespecting you......I think you're making your own bed, and are rolling around in it.
Don't use snippets from who the heck knows what translation you are using (because I have already shown it to be..at best...lacking) and use the full contexts of the hadiths and verses that you claim to know...
Be full and open...not tight and seemingly closed-minded...viewing things with blinders on...creating tunnel vision....
Read, think, contemplate, examine...
I used to be like you Mason...I really did...which is why I decided to find answers for myself...to test the hypothesis that I had....and I was proven wrong.
I can admit my former ignorance......but only because I can now identify it.
While religions are central to many peoples around the world, the intensity, the interpretation, and the principles will differ from group to group...whether Christian (whatever that means) or Muslim (neither of which are 1 group...but are diverse groups with conflicting views).
Again....what is a Sufi?
Is this Islam?
What is Sufism based on?
Does one need a Quran? What school of Islam does it fall under?
I have friends from Iran who have family members and friends who are being arrested and beaten right now in the streets because of the right-wing, conservative power in place. These people have more in common with Americans fighting for justice, Christian, Jew, Athiest, Agnostic, heathen, or any other, than with their government, or what the Western media depicts as their government....
Why are we not standing up in solidarity with these men, women, and children who want back the democratic government they lost when Americans destroyed their government in 1953....
Can you speak to these things?? We shall see....
I didn't post it to, one, sit here an argue.
I have been polite and nice all the way through this.
Your the one with the attitude and are bothered that I don't agree with you.
The QU'RAN, MOHHAMMUD, ALLAH and ISLAM speak for themselves.
As I have stated over and over.
I don't care about 1953.
I posted Qu'ranic verses and the A'Hadith, they are the same in all Qu'rans and Hadith. Regardless of the minor changes made by the liberal historical revisionists, and Islamic apologists.
Deny it all you want, these verses exist and are followed.
YOU don't like it, take it up with MOHHAMMUD and ALLAH.
It is valid information that all have the right to review, and see just what it does say.
So stop getting all mad because I told everyone to go and read it for themselves.
I wish all Americans would read the Qu'ran and A'Hadith... then they would know the truth of ISLAM. Through their own research and understanding.
Now, argue with yourself.
Have a nice nite.
and you have still failed to answer a single question or refute a single point I have made..
You don't care, eh?
I'm sorry that you don't like to debate...I guess you want everyone to just read your words and say "yes sir that is what it is" and maybe pat you on the head or back....
Sorry...I don't play that game.
If I see something that I suspect to be false I attack...as you have noticed elsewhere...why did you never respond to me in your other anti-Muslim thread?
Maybe I will revive that one for you...it's still out there...not forgotten by me...
I asked you specific questions, and you prove your lack of knowledge...that is all I need to see, and is probably the same for anyone else here who is following along.
Don't get hurt and offended by what I say...try to counter back if you can....
I'm not sure if you can, though.
Shall we talk about 1953 in Iran and use it do discuss what we know of Islam/Christian relations?
Can we look at the carving up of India and Pakistan...(British behind it all) and the fear mongering that the Brits used to make the Muslim population fear their long time Hindu neighbors???
That, of course, will bring us to the mandate that created Israel, and really sparked this "Muslim extremist" concept...
Are we all willing to learn something, or are we confortable in our ignorance?
Islamic and Jewish and Christian BAD relations gpo back way way further then 1953.lol
And ask the HINDUs what they think of Islam. Never mind the british.
This muslim extremist concept is mohhammud's creation, the Mujahidin have been around along time.
It was for all intents and purposes sparked in 570 AD, and affirmed in 622 AD, and also on Mohhammud's deathbed where he recited Surahs 9 and 5.
They haven't gotten any better since. And don't even talk about the, "Golden Age Of Islam", because it was a myth.
Like I said. I don't care what you believe.
Just that all have the information to make an informed educated decision. Based on the facts of the Qu'ran and A'hadith.
You can believe as you want.
Your the one who wants to argue... go find someone else.
Obviously. My family lived for over 500 years under Muslim authority....over half a millenium....and it was the British and Americans that brought all of that down...that created the conflicts that destroyed society.
While Christians, my family within the Ottoman Empire became wealthy and powerful....and it was Muslims that protected and aided in their escape from the empire prior to the Armenian Genocide.
I had family that did not make it out, and some who survived the deportations....but it is largely shown in the actual historical record that the Muslims who were violent towards Armenian Christians were the minority, and far more Muslims aided their Christian neighbors than anything else...
I don't only have my family history to back me up, but I also spent a lot of time transcribing the oral accounts of Genocide survivors, and base my knowledge on their experiences as well....can you argue with facts??
The empire changes as American and British missionaries entered the state and decided to wage a religious war, not with the Muslims, but the the Armenian and Greek Christians....all for what?? so that these foreigners could create a tax base for themselves within the Empire....
Your bias is apparent...
I don't have a religious flag to wave, so therefore no alterior motive...I can't say so much for yourself or many others here...
All Islam as a religion understands is power. And it is all Islam as a religion respects.
There is nothing that you can say about the institutionalisation of Islam that is negative that isn't precisely the same with the dominant forms of Christianity....
I live close to the San Fernando Mission here in California...
Who set up the missions? What was done there? What about the native people who had their own beliefs, ideas, social structures???
What changed when Protestant Anglo-Americans arrived??
Now, if you want to do a thread that compares Christianity to Islam that would be great....but you only stick to your biases..which undermines any credibility that you seek to build, at least with me.
Equating the two, especially one - ISLAM- in it's present day form, and another -Christianity- in its most violent days of centuries past.
Does not in any way, change what ISlAM is today.
I want everyone to take everything I say, and all your questions, to any ISLAMIC site to get an answers in regards to what I say, and what their reasoning is behind it's meaning.
If not what I said.
And compare the two, and make your decision.
See if their answers, reasoning and concepts, pass the test to you.
Simple as that.
If you don't believe me, which I don't believe anyone about anything most times, go ask them -ISLAM-, to explain it.
And your thoughts of me will not keep me awake at night. Do not worry.lol
"Christianity- in its most violent days of centuries past."
Past, Present, Future....
To believe that Christian oppression has passed is to believe that institutionalized white racism against others is also of the past...
Both completely false....
Remember, you are speaking to someone who once was a Christian in such a group...
But you aren't reading my writing through, and that is obvious.
Please, take a step back...put your defenses down, and read through my statements...take notes if you must...
compare my statements to yours...objectively...forget that you wrote them down....and then begin what I was doing....read through the full chapters...translate the words correctly....
You wrote one post that:
"Qur'an (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which literally means deceit. If Allah is deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same."
And I showed that you were outright, absolutely, and blatantly wrong:
""The enemies of Jesus devised their plans and Allah devised His plan; Allah is the best of planners. Allah reassured Jesus: I shall cause thee to die a natural death, and shall exalt thee to Myself, and shall clear thee from the calumnies of those who disbelieve, and shall placed those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Judgement."(55-roughly 57)."
"Deceit" and "planning" are two completely different things...
I read what you wrote, grabbed my Quran (Arabic text with translation by Muhammad Zufrulla Khan) and read the entire chapter from which you snagged your exerpt...
You were wrong....and you have no defense...
I have read your posts, you have not yet refuted a single statment that I have made, and I have abundantly shown that you are not representing the truth....
What do you have to say for yourself?
You are a victim of your own crude editing (or the following of someone elses...hopefully not your wife's).....
You maybe think that no one will look up your sources and read for themselves perhaps....and you may have thought wrong.
So because I won't be converted by you, and you cannot post anything that contridicts the verses I have posted.
And you read?
I hope you do.
As I have said, I HOPE EVERYONE DOES READ TH QU'RAN AND A'HADITH, AND THE HISTORY OF ISLAM AS WRITTEN BY ISLAM. NOT LIBERAL AND ISLAMIC APOLOGISTS.
Then they will see.
Read it all in context.
Do your thing....
Because of that?
You insult me? And my wife?
What would my wife have to do with it?
That is just plane crude!!
And shows you for what you are.
Ignorant of the facts and unable to support your whining.
Scheming and planning connote two very different intents in the planning.
And that is the same with the words used in arabic and Hebrew, both semetic. Both languages containing words that cannote planning without inferring any evil in intent. Only one chooses not use that word to infer the intent of a sly objective.
And I read your posts.
Spouting a Biblical verse, does not negate the Qu'ranic verse
What kind of math is that?
Now. You can beleive as you will and I as I do.
And the others can takle the info and research and consider and reach theri own conclusions.
I have reached mine. I am not going to change it because you preach equality in religions.
That is a myth.
That there is no istitutional white racism in America these days, is not a myth.
I will simply say this....claims can be made by anyone.
It is up to the individuals to find out for themselves...
While not a Muslim, Jew, Christian, Hindu, atheist, or anything really for that matter involving religious nomenclature....I recommend reading the Bible, Quran, and any other texts...
I also recommend reading other books, like the "Camp of the Saints" and the "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion", amongst others...so that all can be compared....and then wholistic....and truly beneficial, perspective can be gained...and hatemongering can end...
What is a Sufi?
No offense towards your wife was forwarded, only the questioning of your editing..
If offense was taken I apologize, for it was not my intent.
I am not trying to convert you...I just wanted an answer to the question I raised...
which is something I have still not received....
On a related tangent....gender is a huge issue in both Islam and Christianity....
If we are to look at the Bible and Quran and compare them based on gender relations, how does one stack up against the other?
"Sufi", derives from the three Arabic letters "sa", "wa", and ""fa". Some Muslims say the word is derived from, "safa", which means purity.
There are alot of opinions on the reason for it's origin from, "sa", "wa", "fa". The one bought most often by western dictionaries suggests the Arabic word, "suf",. Which means, "wool", like a cloak, probrably referring to the cloaks the Sufis wore way back.
Sufism, as Dervishe, are in reality heretical off shoots of Islam. Though accepted widely in Iraq, not many conservative mainstream muslims can relate to it so easilly. ( the four schools are- Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i and Hanbali.)
Sufi's & Dervishe think that one can obtain enlightnment and know the mind of God, through meditation, through the understanding of words and the power they hold, and "whirling", which they are world famous for, among other "Mystical" means
There are a different types of Sufi'. Some are considered enlighment, but all are considered "Mystical sects ", "heretcal".
In the four schools and prevailing Islamic thought and teachings, ONE CANNOT KNOW, the mind of Allah.
It is Heresy.
It started out as Shia but now is more sunnni, and it spans all the schools of Islamic thought. Hanbalis, Shafis, Malikis and Hanafis, can all belong to different Sufi, "tariqas", or, "brotherhoods".
Matter of fact the Islamic brotherhood in Egypt and Al Qaeda, are both, "Sufi", based movements. lolo
And the Old testament stacks right up beside the Qu'ran in it's treatment of Women.
The New Testament stands on it's own, in advance of women's equality and rights.
And thank you for the apology.
But really. I did not post the post, to debate it.
Just supply the info.
And I never said I didn't paste some. Wrote it right in the post.
I said ask me for link if you want it. As all the links I post get snipped.
I don't see the problem with pasting verses in. Saves hours, and I trust the source.
I have verified all my sources.
"Scheming and planning connote two very different intents in the planning."
"And that is the same with the words used in arabic and Hebrew, both semetic. Both languages containing words that cannote planning without inferring any evil in intent. Only one chooses not use that word to infer the intent of a sly objective."
I agree when speaking on the word makara..and I do agree with what you have written regarding how the translation from Arabic to English can alter meanings...(not to say that translation from Greek to Latin or English isn't filled with these same issues)...
But I believe that without one being able to fully understand Arabic itself, it is difficult to split between what you are saying and what I am saying...
The verse in particular that we have been going back and forth about (chapter 3 53-54) can be taken litereally...meaning the use of the word makara would imply that God is a deceiver and so forth...
But, it can be taken a different way..
All these words were supposedly spoken aloud to people first...before writing them down..
Now, let us say that our universe was created by an all-seeing, all-knowing God.....Muslim, Christian or Jew, all can agree on that image.
If men are seeking to deceive, or to scheme against those empowered by God, would not God, reasonably speaking, know more about this than man?
Let us look at the Book of Job and see what the Judeo-Christian version of God is like......if there isn't cunning involved there I don't know what to call it...and if God doesn't prove himself to be more cunning than the Devil in this case, I don't know what to say...
With all except of God as a deciever. And there in lies the difference between the God of the Bible and the god of the Qu'ran. The Nature of the one's reflected in thier words, and the actions they allow the one's represening them to under-take.
And I am talking of Christ & Mohhammud.
That is not in God's Nature. He is truth, not deception.
But all the rest, yes.
Can we agree to dis-agree on the points we don't agree on, and agree on what we do?
I am willing.
It has been nice talking to you.
Sorry bout the editing.
I cannot see the text.
I need glasses, but hate the thought of it. And, it is easier to post, then enlarge the damn screen over and over.
I don't know ultimately what we may end up agreeing or disagreeing on...evolution is occuring...
I can look at the character of Judas Iscariot....Jesus knew/had to know what he would end up doing....and he had no choice..it had to be done...
Now, if Judas ends this story in the classical sense....that he runs off and hangs himself....and ends up in Hell I would call that one of the most pivotal deceptions played out by God of all time.....to bring Judas into the fold, himself believing that he was saved...to be used and thrown away??
That, of course, is not the only interpretation of the story...and not all Christians are united on how to view Judas.
There is more, but I have to run....
My views are not solid walls, as yours may be....I'm willing to challenge myself even.... We are involved in an evolution...and we will see what we end up agreeing/disagreeing on in the future..
For now..thanks for your patience and perseverence...Have a good day.
Islam believes God decieved the onlookers and Romans and deluded them into thinking another man was Christ, and he was Crucified.
Again. God decieves in thier beliefs.
And dog, I feel for ya bro. I hope all goes well next time.
And get that damn appandix out.
Have a good nite. I am going to eat.
And Judas betrayed Christ of his own free wiull.
He could have, not done it, it was his choice. Christ simply knew what his choice would be.
Time again to quote the 'Loving" gospel.
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Not condemning like that bad ole quoran!
Jesus himself said that he did not come to abolish the laws and the prophets (the Old Testament). Why do you think even the Apostle Paul celebrated the Passover? Did they not get themselves circumcized as well? Of course...
In the book of Romans Paul chastizes those who don't follow the feasts (feasts in due season..which ones are they talking about?? Not Christmas or Easter, that's for sure)...
Christians believe, falsely, that they can abandon the Old Testament because they have the "new" version....
Did Jesus say that his people (followers) could eat pork?
When did he revoke the food taboos that were set up in the Old Testament?
When did Jesus say to worship on Sunday??
When did Jesus say to not follow the 10 Commandments.....yet Christians all around...all all around.. do what?
It's because they, most, don't know what their religion is all about....
People pick what they want and then say "I'm a believer"......how many Christians have I had this conversation with....
Also....the only reason Christianity exists today is because governments used it...or it became a major part of governments around the world...
Inquisitions....forced conversions....the 'ol Encomienda and Plantation branded it into their foreheads...metaphorically speaking...
People here like to look to a book...a written line somewhere written by God only knows, in order to identify "religion".
As with judging whether or not someone enters the Kingdom of God (if you believe it exists) has nothing to do with what someone writes or says....but rather what they do...
From the Philipines to the United States and Mexico, to Nigeria, South Africa, and beyond Western European Christianity (not Armenian, Coptic, Greek, or other sect) left its mark.....
Like I said, I live right by the San Fernando Mission.....the graves of the Spanish padres are marked here, but what of the people, the Chumash, the Gabrielino, and others, who were forced to live and work here? Most died of exposure to European disease, but like African slaves in the South, when people ran away from the Mission they were hunted down and punished...
From living with plenty of food (California is a naturally...or was anyway, abundant place for food....just pick up acorns, hunt some small game and you're set......the native populations had to learn the labors the Spaniards wanted to profit from....Planting cash crops...raising cattle for hide and tallow trade, learning skills that would enable the Spanish to use them for cheap labor......
And if they weren't at Mass......
American is supposedly a Christian nation....I call it a farce....and I'm glad religion does not reign supreme in this land....at least on its surface...
But one doesn't have to scratch too far below the surface to see the truth....
In the late 19th and early 20th century the American government required that Native American peoples (who by that point had been quarantined on nearly-resourceless reservations..one of the first government-welfare programs) were forced to send their kids to American schools on the east coast...
Mind you, Native peoples had been pushed westward and still further westward by Anglo-Christian-God fearing colonizers...(Manifest Destiny....whose God is that?)
They were forced to give up their children.....and starved by the government if they didn't.....
In these schools they would learn about "God".....and they would be beaten if they spoke in their native languages...
The were forced to cut their hair and give up their traditional clothes.....
Cultural genocide to accentuate the actual genocide that had been occurring for 400 plus years...at the hands of men carrying crosses, doing "his" will....
From sugar, fruit, and coffee plantations across Central American and the Carribbean.....rubber plantations in Indonesia, or sweatshops today in China, India, and Mexico....the Christian face is firmly in place....and its wealth...the wealth of the churches that then can preach around the world was gathered from the bloody hands of murdered and poisoned people.....
When Spain was expelling all of its Jewish population in the late 15th century there was only one place in the world, one state in the world, who would take them in....the Ottoman Empire..
When Christians were busy killing, robbing, and generally abusing Jews....Muslims were protecting them, giving them a place to call home and find success.....and they did so.
My family, Gregorian Christian, within the Ottoman Empire, was extremely wealthy and well connected.....as I said, Muslims saved my family over and over and over...
Technically I shouldn't be here based off all the times my great-grandfather alone should have died.....but Muslims saved him and his family....and Muslims in Egypt, where my family went after leaving Anatolia forever, did not hurt or hinder them either....
Let us look at the "Muslim" world for what it is....on its surface you see Islam, you see what the media wants you to see....but underneath it all are Christians from Western Europe....British, French, and Americans....
The Sykes-Picot Agreement involved who?
The partitioning of Israel and Palestine was orchestrated by who?
And who suffered? Who broke the promises that have brought about what we see today?
Those lines in the Mid East that we call countries are not so...they are principalities carved out by Europeans for Europeans......
In many cases religion is a game played by those who want to conquer others
"Onward Christian soldier...marching as to war...with the Cross of Jesus...."
Its a superiority complex that enables one person to place themselves over another (if no where else but within their own minds) for no other reason but affiliation....another arbitrary hierarchy setting up "privilege" for those who didn't earn it or don't deserve it..
You want it......do what it takes to get it... Unless someone here has a direct connection to the Almighty, which no one here has manifested in any conclusive way, any argument over deity is moot.
For every Bible and Quran out there there is another set of beliefs, written or not, that play a role in peoples' lives.....neither of these books give anyone a spiritual edge...
It is just man man man man man and a slight side of woman, as long is it is under the firm, arbitrary power of man
There is no superiority gained by book-clinging...just purposeless fighting....like here on this thread....
We know the songs, right?
You guys just don't get it.
Islam speaks for itself!
Niether you, nor I, can change that fact.
Just guide people to the relevant info, and allow them to decide for themselve.
If you do not like that I post info on where to research the Qu'ran and A'HAdith, and where to find the relevant revelations and Hadith, in regards to certain issues involving Islam.
Then don't read my responses.
As I have stated over and over.
Everyone!!!! Should look into everything YOU, or I, or any MUSLIM, or HISTORIAN, or THEOLOGION, or IMAM, tells them.
You sit here and down me over and over for speaking about what I have learned in my time around Islam, and the Umma.
Telling me, I don't understand?
Is that the problem as you see it?...
I think the truth is. None of you people want anyone to see what Islam says, because then you cannot control its, PR.
Your worried the average American might read the Qu'ran and its history, and about Mohhammud and his history and the A'Hadith and the Histories of the four rightly guided Caliphs, and see ISLAM for what it is.
(MY opinion of ISLAM goes here, but I will not state it.)
Because I don't bend to your interpretation, then I do not understand Islam. Because I don't accept your equating the religions as, "all tru", and "alike" and "words of God". Then I don't understan and am hateful.
That settles it, you guys are right.... duh
No one else can ask and question and research and decide?
You guys are funny!!!!
Average Americans will understand it as they see it and find it to be, whatever they find it to be. Regardless of what you or I say.?
To think they should allow, you or some Muslim Imam or random practitioner of Islam, or I. To tell them what Islam is all about. Is just not the way it should be.
GO LOOK FOR YOURSELVES, EVERYONE, and then decide.
I think we, Americans, are very well equipped as Americans to read and research on our own. We don't need Historians and Islamic Imams and apologists, to translate it for us.
We made it through the bible, most of us Christians have. And if you don't agree with my interpretation.
Then don't believe it.
Also. I understand how Christ fulfilled and affirmed the. I also understand how he progressed it in other ways. You should think about that. It is why we don't stone people to death for all kinds of offenses anymore.
I only hate the act of people who have to call others names.
Instead of understanding a post correctly.
It is info, and my opinion. If you don't like t. Don't read it.
We don't get it because we're ignorant. And that's a shame !
Islam speaks for itself !
maybe we're deaf!
who knows !
you're still at it!
I'm sure Muslims are laughing !
I hope they do.
Your Idea of Christ, is not our Christ.
Feed that BS to someone else.
We already been through it.
Many here have seen Islam's christ.
I Posted the thread myself, just to clearify your, Islam's Christ is a killer of Christians and Jews, and nothing like ours.
Another lie of Islam.
I take it that all the people posting here are Islamic extremists who hate America? Because that is who was invited to post here. If not, frankly, how do YOU know what an Islamic extremist thinks?
Isn't the point of this thread to get it from the horse's mouth?
Actually yes, I am an Islamic extremist.
And so your posting here puts you in the same cateogory as the rest of us posters, I assume? Hateful terrorists??
Here is Islam's idea of Christ... see what you think.
And here is another link, so you can read it from a Muslim in his own words.
That is not my Christ. See for yourself Christians, don't take my word for it. That is Islaam.com an entirely Islamic site. They won't lie or hide it from you. They just act as if it is common knowledge that only Muslims will live through their idea of end days.
And Christ and all the prophets were Muslims you know. So don't expect any mercy from them unsless you convert to Islam.
Here is their home site. Very Interesting reading, especailly for Christians.
Hate is not checking the facts and correcting misconceptions about an important issue, that many ignore and fail to check for themselves.
No. That is common sense.
Go READ ISLAM and all its glorious words of allah,lol, and see what you think about Momo and allah in the end.
hahahaha... Responding to a post and verifying its veracity. Is hate?
Only in a liberal PC world like ours.
Painting all believers in a particular faith with the same brush is hate.
I have not painted all.
Go back and read my posts.
I have said continuously and from the beginning. My post was in regards to the religion of Islam condoning deciet and deception.
I also stated from the beginning, to take all Muslims as you find them on an individual basis.
You guys assume too much. Read my posts and stop attributting what Islam says to me.
I just supply the info., such as what follows. Which is from a Muslim, written about Islam and Christ, as they see it. They, as in regular Muslims, Scholars, Jurists, Theologions of Islam, Imams, etc....
NOT YOU, NOT I. Them!
So I am testing the veracity of the statement in regards to Islam believing in Christ, just like us Christians. I wonder what all the Christians think of this Christ of Islam's?
pay attention... OH and this is WHAT ALL MUSLIMS LEARN ABOUT THEIR VERSION OF CHRIST.
The Quran makes three references to the return of Jesus son of Mary (may peace be upon him) to the earth - i.e. his descent from the sky - in order to accomplish various tasks.
THE FIRST REFERENCE: is in Surah Nisaa’, verses (156-159). As for the context of these verses, Allah, the Exalted, mentions the fabrications of the Jews, their slander of Mary, their rejection of Faith, and claim that they killed Jesus son of Mary - the Messenger of Allah. Thereupon Allah, the Exalted, declares the falsity of these claims and says, "And because of their saying (boasting), ‘We killed Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah,’ - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so." [an-Nisaa’ 4:157] We have learned from the preceding sections about the disciple who resembled Jesus and voluntarily sacrificed and ransomed himself, as has been specifically stated by the leading scholars of Islam.
SO WHAT EXACTLY HAPPEDNED THEN? Allah, the Exalted, raised Jesus son of Mary to the sky. His enemies, the Jews, failed to harm him, let alone kill and crucify him. This is a clear and unambiguous text that carries no room for another interpretation. It states clearly that Allah, the Exalted, raised Jesus to Himself - bodily and his soul - in order to save him from the Jews murdering and crucifying him. Allah, the Exalted, says in the Quran, "But Allah raised him up (with his body and soul) unto Himself; and Allah is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise." [an-Nisaa’ 4:158]
So, if anyone claims that only the soul was raised, it would be incorrect, as is shown from the two following perspectives.
FIRSTLY, Allah made a mention of this raise in the context of refutation of the claim of the Jews that they killed the Christ. So, if it were that only the soul was raised, then that would actually mean an acknowledgment of the claim of the Jews that they killed the Christ - which is to remove his soul!
SECONDLY, if it were true that only his soul was raised, there would remain no distinction for Jesus above the rest. For all Prophets (peace be upon them), and in fact all believing Muslims, have their souls raised to the sky upon their death. So, does there remain anything that distinguishes Jesus, for which Allah makes a special marked mention in the Quran that He raised him?
After establishing this point, another Quranic verse follows in the same context of the ones that preceded. This one clearly bears evidence on another return of the Christ (peace be upon him) to the earth and that he will descend from the sky. The purpose of this is the crucial role he will play upon his return to the earth. Allah, the Exalted, says, "And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) but must believe in him (Jesus son of Mary as a Messenger of Allah and a human being) before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them." [an-Nisaa’ 4:159]
The verse presents the message in a future tense, so it is with regards to the events to come after the raising of the Christ. It informs that some of the People of the Book will believe in the Christ. But when will that be? It will be upon his descent, his return and coming onto the earth once again. Imam Tabari, the renowned scholar of the Quranic exegesis (may Allah cover him in mercy), explained this. He said, “The meaning of the verse ‘And there is none of the people of the Scripture but must believe in him’, that is: in Jesus, ‘before his death’, that is: before the death of Jesus. It is explained as follows: that all of them will affirm and acknowledge him when he descends to kill the Antichrist, thereafter, all the religion will give way to only the one, which is the pure upright religion of Islam - the religion of Abraham (may the peace be him)." [See Tafsir at-Tabari 4:356-357].
THE SECOND REFERENCE in the Noble Quran to the imperative nature of the descent of Jesus Christ, the son of Mary, in order to complete the task that must be done on the earth, is found in Surah Zukhruf in the Quran. Allah, the Exalted, says in it, "And when the son of Mary is quoted as an example (i.e. Jesus worshipped like their idols), behold, your people cry aloud (laugh out at the example). And say: Are our gods better or is he (i.e. Jesus)? They quoted not the above example except for argument. Nay! But they are a quarrelsome people. He (i.e. Jesus) was not more than a slave. We granted Our Favor to him, and We made him an example for the Children of Israel (i.e. his creation without a father). And if it were Our Will, We would have (destroyed you all, and) made angels to replace you on the earth. And he (i.e. Jesus) shall be a known sign for (the coming of) the Hour (i.e. Day of Resurrection). Therefore have no doubt concerning it. And follow Me (i.e. Allah)! This is the Straight Path." [az-Zukhruf 43:57-61]. In another recitation, it is recited as "And he shall be a mark". It means, a symbol, a portent, a sign of the Hour. [See Fathu-l Qadeer of Shawkaani, (4/562) for references of those who read it so.]
How can Jesus son Mary, be a sign of the Hour (Doomsday)? It cannot be except with his descent being in the last stage and period. His descent would then be a great sign and one of the major portents of the Hour - a sign that announces the closeness of its occurrence. This is how the verse has commonly been explained by the scholars of Tafsir (exegesis of the Quran). Amongst them are Mujahid, Suddee, Qatada, Hasan al-Basri, Dahhaak and Ibn Zayd. It is also the saying of Ibn Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him). They all have stated this explicitly, that Jesus son of Mary is one of the signs of the Hour in the sense that he will descend and rule the earth and dwell therein for forty years, as is mentioned in the authentic hadith, that will be mentioned shortly. And his descent will be one of the great signs of Allah and one of the supreme portents of the Hour.
THE THIRD REFERENCE TO IT IN THE QURAN The deduction from this text is indeed remarkable. One notes that there is hardly ever a mention of the story of Jesus (in the Quran) except that it is mentioned along with it that, "He will speak to the people in the cradle and in manhood" [Aal `Imraan 3: 46, and al-Maa’ida 5:110]. In this, Allah mentioned two remarkable and rare events, that are also two dazzling signs (proofs) of Allah found in the character of Jesus Christ.
THE FIRST MATTER is that he spoke in the cradle while still an infant. This does not occur except as a miracle from Allah, the Mighty, and the Magnificent. That is why it has never occurred except with three people as has been established in the authentic hadith narrated by Abu Hurairah (may Allah be pleased with him). [See Saheeh Bukhari (4/201-202)]. So the speaking of Jesus (peace be on him) in the cradle was indeed a sign, and there was a need, and the circumstance called for it as the mother of Jesus came to be held in suspicion due to the birth, `how can a woman give birth without a husband?' They even voiced this explicitly, as reported in the Quran, "Your father was not a man who used to commit adultery, nor your mother was an unchaste woman." [Maryam 19:28]
So, a miracle was required to prove her innocence and to prove that the birth was another such a miracle. Thus the infant spoke in the cradle, an extraordinary, unaccustomed event. But the verse couples this miraculous event, with the mention of another event - of him speaking as a middle-aged adult. But every one speaks at that age. So where is the miracle in that? The Arabic word used in the verse that refers to that stage of his life, is Kuhoola, which is used for a person past the age of forty and up to the age of fifty or sixty years. Is it at all remarkable that one speaks at the age of sixty or even seventy?! So where is the miracle that is alluded to in this section of the verse which mentions that Jesus speaks as a middle aged man?
This shows that just as his speech in the cradle as an infant was a miracle, likewise he will descend and speak to the people as a middle aged man in the last stages of this world, making his descent and speech thereupon, also a miracle. Otherwise, there is no miracle in a sixty or seventy year old communicating by speech!
So the evidence from this section of the verse in the Quran that he will speak to the people as a middle-aged adult is from the following two perspectives.
FIRSTLY, some of the scholars of Islam, amongst them is ibn Musayyab, stated that Jesus son of Mary, was raised to the sky while he was at an age of thirty three years, in the prime of his youth (referred to in Arabic as Shabaab, which is a stage prior to the one mentioned in the Quran, Kuhoola). So he had not yet reached the stage of Kuhoola.
SECONDLY, here comes the aspect of amazement, marvel and the miracle. The aspect, which bears evidence on the point, is that he speaks to the people as a middle-aged man (in Kuhoola) after having been raised, and his being raised is indeed an astonishing event. And he will descend, and his descent is also another astonishing, remarkable event. He will then speak to the people and will live after his descent for forty years. This forty added to the thirty years makes him someone who would have reached the age of Kuhoola, and having spoken at that age. He will then have spoken to the people as he spoke to them in the cradle. This is a clear and unambiguous indication that he (peace be upon him) will certainly complete his role and his part, and will descend towards the last stages and speak to the people as a middle-aged man, just as he spoke miraculously as an infant. Imam Tabari related from Abdurahman ibn Zayd that he said, ‘Jesus did indeed speak to them in the cradle, and he will speak to them when he kills the Antichrist, he will then be a kahl (middle-aged person)." [Tafsir Tabari 3/271]
You have a problem with that take it up with ISLAM, and their scholars and wise men and their leaders.
Questioning the veracity of a religions statements in regard to their teaching of my saviour is not hate. And nothing like racism... you people are funny.hahahahahahahahahahalololololololololoolo
Here ya go read some more and learn what you speak of.
And PS; Thier are many Muslims of different races. lololol
i wasn't talking about your posts. I was commenting that painting all believers with the same brush was hate and racism.
If you felt touched, there must be some reason.
Was I posting to you ? No.
So, why is it false? Not just because you say so, right? You have some reasons for saying it's false?
Please explain yourself.
YES I AM I DON'T KNOW WHY I AM POSTING THIS HERE BUT I JUST CAN'T HELP BUT ADMIT I AM A TERRORIST
But the Bible is not Christianity, and the Quran is not Islam...
Abraham is considered a Muslim, is he not? and what book did he have?
Sufism, while seen as heretical by those based in scriptures, is universal. All spiritual paths are paths to God....at least that is what I have learned.
There is Islam of the cities, and then there is Islam in the frontier....the Islam of Osman Bey enabled him to ally himself with Christians, and work together to build the Ottoman Empire...while Muslims they married into the Greek-Orthodox Byzantine royal house... The Sufi aspects of Islam in Anatolia has not left...and it exists greatly in Iran...it is through a Persian family I work with that I have been able to gain more insight...
So, while there are aspects of Islam, of particular perspectives of Islam, that are dangerous, there are others that are not.
And like many Christians, a great many Muslims are not the most ardent of followers...some take it more seriously than others..
There are many aspects of Christianity that are equally threatening....from the "Camp of the Saints" to domestic and international terrorism...to even infringment on the separation of church and state in this nation..
Can we agree that we are not dealing with a world of absolutes here?
And the thread is talking about 'extremist'.
Are you for real. The Ottoman Empire is responsible for what is known in Greek History as the Devshirme, "The Jannessarrie Corp." or the Blood Tithe.
Janissaries: from Turkish "yeni cheri," "new soldiers." This word refers to the slave soldiers of the Ottoman Empire between 1389 and 1826. Male children were recruited via the devshirme, a tax in children levied upon non-Muslim communities, and raised as professional soldiers. The corps began to decline in the 16th century and by 1600 was a bastion of hereditary privilege and intrigue. The janissary corps was forcibly disbanded in 1826 by the Ottoman sultan Mehmed II.
The greek and non-believers of the Balkans and Byzantium were forced to give their childred, at the age of 5 or 6 to the Muslims to be raised in an Islamic education and be the fighters fof the Caliph..
Someone who comes and takes your lil kid to enslave to their religion, ISLAM, is your friend.
Get a life.
That is absurd to state.
read the real deal...
For Five Centuries, Muslims Dominated the World
A mighty empire and how it grew
By Alex Markels
Posted April 7, 2008
Indeed, for all its initial brutality, Mongol rule had several positive impacts on Islamic society, most notably freeing its rule from domination exclusively by its Arab forebears. Thereafter, the seat of Muslim power and trade would shift east, bringing even more riches from Samarkand and China.
Meanwhile, another Muslim power was beginning to stir in what is now Turkey: the Ottomans. Descended from the nomadic tribes that crisscrossed Turkey's Aral Sea steppe, the Ottomans had served as mercenaries to their Arab predecessors in their defense against the Mongol invaders and eventually became converted to Islam
The Ottoman Empire traced its origins to Osman Bey, a 14th-century Turkish warlord whose conquest of Bursa, a formerly Christian Byzantine city, effectively ended his ancestors' nomadic tradition and laid the groundwork for what would become Islam's longest-lived dynasty. Taking a page from their Abassid predecessors in ninth-century Baghdad, Osman and his successors' conquests of Christian
Byzantium left the previous regime's clerks and bureaucrats in place. They channeled the taxes they collected to line the sultans' pockets and to produce some of Islam's most impressive mosques and palaces.
Their expansion was aided, in part, by their pragmatic take on Islamic society, in which the Ottoman state took precedence over all other institutions, even family and religious affiliation. For example, at a time when Islamic fiefdoms in Turkey, Persia, and elsewhere were vying for power in the region, the Ottomans decided against recruiting military leaders and bureaucrats from the ranks of their Muslim brethren and instead created a new institution: the devshirme.
Composed of young Christian boys taken from newly conquered territories, they were essentially slaves to the Ottoman sultans. They were indoctrinated in Muslim religion, culture, and languages, then given the best possible education and channeled into the empire's highest bureaucratic and military ranks. The result was the creation of a social caste free of conflicting loyalties.
"The system was so beautiful in that they only had one allegiance—to the sultan," Islamic historian Esin Atil explains in the PBS documentary Islam: Empire of Faith. "No family, no region, no other ties. . . . Those who were brainy went to the palace schools and graduated into different levels of [political advisers] and governors....Those who were brawny went to the [military]."
With what was now the toughest, most disciplined army in the world, the Ottomans moved to expand their empire. And in 1453, Osman's heir, Mehmet the Conqueror, seized the Ottoman's ultimate prize: Constantinople, the capital of the dying Byzantine Empire. Within hours of breaching the city's walls with the innovative use of gunpowder, Mehmet laid claim to the Hagia Sophia, the city's—and, perhaps, Christianity's—greatest church. He transformed the church into a mosque and renamed the city Istanbul.
Mehmet's successors further expanded the Ottomans' reach, adding Syria, Egypt, and Islam's holiest Arabian sites, as well as portions of Eastern Europe. By the time the sultan Suleiman came to power in 1520, the Ottoman Empire was at its peak. The 10th descendant of Osman, Suleiman was named for the Old Testament's King Solomon, and he set about to reign in a manner no less grand.
In addition to his military conquests in Belgrade and Hungary, Suleiman took advantage of his great wealth to refurbish the Dome of the Rock mosque in Jerusalem. He also commissioned his chief architect to create what remains one of Islam's greatest architectural legacies: the massive Suleymaniye mosque overlooking Istanbul, a vast domed complex that included a hospital, school, and library. When it was completed, Suleiman was so overwhelmed, he boasted, "Oh, Solomon! I have surpassed thee."
http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/rel … l?PageNr=3
And if you want more source in regards to the Devshirme, or jannissarie Corp, CHRISTIAN CHILDREN ENSLAVED TO ISLAM to become their, the Caliphs and Islam's, protectors and military
YEAH REAL NICE PEOPLE YOU HOLD OUT AS THE "BEST" OF ISLAM,
More of how Islam shows it peace and love. lololol
I know all about the Ottoman Empire.... I know very well about the Collection...and also about the upward mobility it enabled...but you may not focus on that...
So...if the U.S., run by Christians....are committing genocide in the Philipines.....in Central America......on land that would eventually be the U.S. itself.... but we don't call any of this behavior "extremism".... and we don't look at it...
Instead someone here makes a page "to Islamic Extremists" which is written very poorly, and borders on religious intolerance.....an equal to racism.....
No....I am just dialoguing with people who only see what they want to see..
Islam will appear how they want it, because they have a vested interest in perpetuating the belief....
I have family members much the same, so I am used to dealing with it, but it is intolerance and ignorance just the same....
Instead of dealing with the enemies in our midst, the corporate stooges who hijack our nation while touting around Christian "mores," we fantasize about the non-enemies who have no impact on your lives....
Read Operation Northwoods, and you will find that it is the United States that puts on attacks like Sept. 11, and like the recent Nigerian "bomber"......
I'm not worrked about religous sects....we have a Department of Defense that does far far worse, and has the means to truly do whatever they wish.....
They take out governments, like in Honduras recently...and they fund terrorist training camps, like the School of the America's....oh wait, American tax dollars fund it...while most Americans have no clue of its existance at all...
Now, regarding the semantics game, I have a feeling my Islamics professor knows a bit more than you Mason....I have that trust in him....I can also corroborate what he says though other channels....and he doesn't see what you see.
"Show me the fanatical Christians killing thousands today? I have asked repeatedly and have recieved NO answer"
I was in the Marine Corps...and there are lots of fanatical Christians in the rank structure of our military and government....shall I put a tally on how many Iraqi innocents...how many Afghani innocents have died? The attrocities....what did Ann Coulter say on Sept. 13, 2001??
"We should invade their countries (Islamic countries), kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity....
Hmmmm....she may not be actively working on this plan....but what if people like her had control....and then recall who Ann Coulter was and is working for???
The "Camp of the Saints" alone...if you get a chance to read it, calls for acts of violence...screams for it...against Muslims, Hindu, and the "Liberals" who defend them....it advocates taking pride in killing...that "White" "Christian" society is failing, and killing is the protection....destroy them before they destroy us....death... this book was a best-seller in Europe, and does very well in the United States....It wasn't published too long ago...
What of groups like the National Liberation Front of Tripura?
The Iron Guard??
The Lord's Resistance Army?
The Ku Klux Klan?
Are these not Christian organizations?? Then again, who is a Christian? (just like in Islam)
Aside from the violence that has ongoingly taken place, whether blatantly religous or whether religion bubbles just under the surface, there is more violence to come...
Get to know the "Camp of the Saints" and you will see what I mean.....
and while many Christians on this page have probably not read it, millions have...the Bott Family pumps it on their vast Christian Evangelical media networks.......
I guess Christians don't know the full extent of their religion....
Having been a Christian, I have seen the hate...I have heard the sermons of intolerance against non-Christians, and against Christians of other sects....
Violence is inherent in all of this because there is competition...for bodies..for minds...for tithe money...
Or rather, bullocks....
I will let you ongoingly here banter uselessly about topics that really are unimportant in the grand scale of things....
I thank everyone here for, for the most part, their civility, and hope that, regardless of the views ultimately represented here, that these discussions lead to better writers, better users of language, and overall better communication....
Take care, and let 2010 be the best year of our lives yet.....
*swoons* It's a hubber after my own heart.
"Abraham is considered a Muslim, is he not?"
No he isn't, not in the sense you mean.
Stop the stupid semantic games.
"There are many aspects of Christianity that are equally threatening....from the "Camp of the Saints" to domestic and international terrorism...to even infringment on the separation of church and state in this nation."
Show me the fanatical Christians killing thousands today? I have asked repeatedly and have recieved NO answer,
And there is NO, "Seperation of Church and State", in the Constitution. Read the damn thing, and point it out when you find it.
So thats two things, I have yet to see produced.
"Show me the fanatical Christians killing thousands today? I have asked repeatedly and have recieved NO answer,"
As I recall our stupid invasion resulted in 100,000 deaths in Iraq. And even more in Vietnam, for no good reason.
"Show me the fanatical Christians killing thousands today? I have asked repeatedly and have recieved NO answer,"
This statement makes me want to wretch.
How quickly we forget...
The genocide in Bosnia was about Christian serbs murdering, raping and pillaging muslims. I don't know the death toll. I would say countless lives were lost.
If this doesn't silence you, it won't surprise me, but you have no credibility with me for your rants at this point. It's just background noise.
you're still at it!
this is like your personal 'Jihad' !
I'm sure Muslims are laughing !
I hope they do...
You write wonderfully !! but Mason will never acquiesce to your point of view.
He hates. So he's blind.
For one dangerous cult to sling mud at another dangerous cult is the ultimate in hypocrisy. My god can beat up your god mentality.
Meanwhile, the rest of us wait for what new atrocity either camp will perpetrate next in the name of their gods.
And, at this point, one would usually say, "It is to laugh"
Unfortunately, it isn't funny at all.
Absolutely agreed....the self-fulfilling prophecy on display for all to see...
The bible and quoran are very much the same . Both have thousands of threats from the same tiny little psychotic invisible sky fairy.
Hate filled and obviously insane men who thought that rape, murder hate and fear of eternal damnation were all ok!
That is a great resource...
I'm going to do some comparing of my own...
Where did Mason go?
After the mentioning of Iraq, Afghanistan, and Bosnia...what could be said?
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