Being a Christian, means being a follower of Jesus Christ. Not so?
Does this means a Christian has to be a martyr, willing to DIE emotionally or physically in order for others to live, or to have a better life?
In a marriage, should/may/must a Christian wife allows her husband to abuse her (and her kids) emotionally or physically in ANY way?
What about The Greatest Commandment: "Jesus said to him, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbour as you love yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." (Matt 22:37-40)
May this be seen as a command to all women: You MUST love yourself, and not MORE or LESS than you love your husband and children?
When she keeps on allowing her husband to abuse her â�� verbally or physically â�� in other words keep on being a martyr like Jesus was - does she proves that she loves God with her entire being, and she loves her ill-treated-self as she loves her unfortunate children and her ungodly husband? Or does she actually prove that se regards her husband as her god/fetish/idol?
Your opinion will truly be appreciated!
I must admit I have noticed a seemingly strong desire amongst a certain type of Christian to be martyred. They do tend to go on about being "persecuted for their beliefs" a lot.
This is the problem with this particular belief system. It is emotionally damaging because it discourages you from thinking for yourself. Instead of asking the question "does that make any sense?" the bible encourages you to ask "how do I interpret the bible to tell me what to think?"
Having said that - I am not sure this applies in this case. Although - no matter which way you look at it - unless you are prepared to seriously stretch the word (which most Christians seem to be) - women are subservient to men according to the perfect word of god.
So - does that make sense?
This is what I don't understand about the Christian community: God apparently had only One Son that was to be sacrificed. The rest of us have the responsibility to live, not die. Yet, Christians somehow erroneously believe that their suffering is somehow divine. That's just shear stupidity. Suffering is just suffering. Period. To think your own personal suffering is somehow god-worthy or divine is arrogance. Jesus came to save your sorry self inspite of your arrogance (according to Christians). So you are really not like him at all, and you can't claim to be a holy martyr. Your suffering is just suffering and it's up to you to bring it to an end. He's not going to do it for you, because otherwise you would never learn the miserable lessons you need to.
To enable continued abuse in a relationship is to enable continued criminal activity. You become an accomplice to the crime by allowing it to continue. Why don't people see this? It makes me furious, having had to deal with severe abuse myself!
Call abuse what it is: criminal. Obedience is based on love, not servitude.
A Christian man will not abuse his family members, or anyone else for that matter, physically or emotionally. Our definition of "abuse" must be evaluated. To speak the Truth, to hold others Accountable, to expect a wife and children to seek Perfection is not "abuse". It is a husband's Responsibility to expect his family members to Act in a Godly manner. To support women in undermining the role and function of the men in their lives has nearly destroyed this country. We Must Love, Cherish, Encourage and Support our Christian men in their God-given Role in our lives. As much as we would like it to be, as women, we are not to be the head of the family. We are to be a "help-mate", support and love for our husbands. May God Bless our Christian men with the Strength to Stand.
Ephesians 5: 28:
"So ought men to love their wives as as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself."
The man has the first responsibility to behave properly, to love his wife, to control his lusts, to make the marriage (in and out of bed) a loving, mutually-satisfying relationship. He is supposed to be the head of the house, in a Godly way. When that happens, the woman then can properly be submissive in the ways that God commands her to.
The husband is not to be her "god/God". He is supposed to be submissive to God; then she is supposed to be submitted to the husband.
Nope, she ain't supposed to put up with abuse, either verbally, emotionally, mentally, nor physically.
In other areas of the Christian's walk, we ARE supposed to, at times, be "martyrs" for the sake of Christ. Most Christians have enough discernment to know when that is.
Yay! Agreement. Divorce Good (Brenda is divorced, so god sez it is OK) Homosexuality Bad (Brenda's ex-husband is Gay so god sez it is bad).
No one looked at the link I guess?
http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/ge … e-husband/
Brenda? Pretty sure you are going to like this woman. She is a real Christian. Like yourself.
i thought the standard of good and bad was based on MY interpretation of the Bible, not Brenda's??
Yes we do.
Just ignore that pesky guy Knowles who's tryin' to cause trouble betwixt us!
...and who keeps spouting accusations about things he knows nothing about, from his above post.
It is hard to answer this question to answer without personally knowing all of the facts.
Even a dog knows when it is better to not go back home to receive another beating. And it knows when it is better to go back home.
A husband and wife are suposed to submitt to each other.
Somebody in the household should have the veto power and I think it best when that is the husband. (being a man)
A wise man knows how to keep his wife happy while he is doing that.
It can be detrimental to the children to witness a abusive relationship between Mom and Dad.
But no one is suposed to be a marter doing anything that they do not believe in.
You have to evaluate your own situation. What is best for you and your children and the immediately world around you?
Listen to peoples advice then make up your own mind.
Thank you, Jerami! This issue really boggles my mind for the past seven months. ‘Under the influence of love’, trying to establish a marriage on Christian principles – or any other principle – parties are vulnerably confronted with each other’s concepts, precepts, prejudices, phobias, etc. They have different conceptions of lay down principles, and to adapt means one or the other have to ‘crucify’ some or all of his/her own principles – especially those who are regarded by the other as ungodly. Of course, according to God’s law, the man has the veto power. So the woman has to change herself and her views, which mean alienating her from her ‘self’. (Hopefully to become more like Christ.) BUT, and this is the ISSUE – 1: When does she as a Christian becomes a martyr or an idolater? 2: Should she become one of these? (PS: Believe me - wise men/women in love are nothing but fools.)
A woman should never put up with abuse, whether she is a Christian or not should not come into it. By putting up with abuse from a husband, a woman can actually be hurting other people, especially children, so perhaps that is not martyrdom at all? Spiritually, perhaps a person should try not to judge other people, hold onto bitterness which eats away at them,and perhaps even forgive them, but that does not mean tolerating someone who does not treat them respectfully. Negativity only breeds negativity and sometimes loving yourself means standing up for yourself or walking away, for the sake of yourself and children involved.
You have to love yourself, otherwise you cannot help but spread negativity.. and I do not at all believe that anyone is a household should have power over another. If you truly love another person then you have to set them free to be the person they are, yet this should not include hurting yourself. Love is a feeling; an emotion, not an excuse for power.
I am not a Christian though, but I would only assume that the quote from the bible 'Love yourself as your neighbour' to mean that Jesus believed in being unjudgmental towards others, not holding onto hatred (which only eats away at you anyway)and looking for the good things in people, understanding why they may be the way they are....loving yourself means seeing the good in yourself, caring for yourself so that you adopt a positive outlook for life which will ultimately be absorbed by other people. However, putting up with abusive and disrespect without doing anything about it is not loving yourself at all. Well, that's my opinion anyway - and religious or not, the basic principles in life - kindness, caring, respect - should be fundamental to all.
When faced with someone who says they are a Christian and in an abusive relationship, I often refer them to this article, as I think it has a fairly balanced perspective of what God asks and promises.
http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/ge … e-husband/
I can barely believe what this article says. And you recommend this as a "balanced perspective"? Good grief!
Disgusting. Awful advice from some one not qualified to give advice on anything.
"I want to honor Christ by honoring my husband. It does not matter if my husband deserves it, because Christ deserves it! It's the least I can do for Him after all He's done for me! " says one commenter. You are kidding me?
Advising some one to stay in an abusive marriage because God hates divorce?
Yeah - "rationale" is not a word I can apply to this nonsense.
Shame on you Ivorwen.
Notice the last line in the article?
"God hates divorce—always, forever, regardless, without exception. "
Maybe Brenda should read it.
Mark, I was referring to the article, not the commenter's.
Second, having grown up in the church, and seen many 'martyrs' women, who complain of abuse because their husband isn't always as docile as a new born lamb, I probably have a different perspective of this than others do. From some of what I have seen/heard, your response could put you in the abusive category.
I am not sure what the OP had in mind, but when I see a woman who is claiming to be abused because she doesn't always get her way, I have to say, "Get over it, and start honoring him in the way he deserves to be. Things will probably change rapidly."
As the article says, if there is true abuse, get out of harms way. Deal with it legally.
Dear me. Are you kidding me? Can you read? This is what the article says:
"Divorce followed by the most wonderful second marriage is still a failure, and will be throughout eternity."
"If you or your children have been hit (other than the children being spanked) so as to leave discernable marks two hours later, and you genuinely fear that he will repeat his battering, you can take legal steps without divorcing your husband."
"But if your husband has sexually molested the children, you should approach him with it. If he is truly repentant (not just exposed) and is willing to seek counseling, you may feel comfortable giving him an opportunity to prove himself, as long as you know the children are safe. If there is any thought that they are not safe, or if he is not repentant and willing to seek help, then go to the law and have him arrested. Stick by him, but testify against him in court. Have him do about 10 to 20 years, and by the time he gets out, you will have raised the kids, and you can be waiting for him with open arms of forgiveness and restitution. Will this glorify God? Forever. You ask, "What if he doesn’t repent even then?" Then you will be rewarded in heaven equal to the martyrs, and God will have something to rub in the Devil’s face. God hates divorce—always, forever, regardless, without exception. "
You are the one doing the abusing by suggesting this as advice and then lying about what it says.
Still - I guess that makes you a proper Christian.
This is religionist clap trap. Honestly - the OP is already confused and you suggest this?
Shame on you woman.
What about those who refuse to leave, even in dire circumstances? Thinking they should stick by?
I think there is a balance that is needed, just as there is a balance needed between being a pacifist and protecting one's self. Either can be taken to an extreme.
You cannot be a pacifist and use violence to protect yourself. But - great job on changing the subject away from recommending that people who discover their husband has sexually abused their children do not go straight to the police, in order to honor Christ.
"You cannot be a pacifist and use violence to protect yourself." You also don't have to submit to what ever someone wants to do to you. There is balance.
Using a parallel is not changing the subject.
If I found out that my children had been abused, there would not be time to read an article or ask advice, before the police were called. For those who have found out and done nothing, they need encouragement to step up to the plate and face the situation.
I have met women several women who grew up in non-christian homes, who were abused by their fathers, and when they told, they were treated like with contempt, because the mother didn't want to face the facts about her husband. It is not just a 'christian' problem. Again, not trying to change the subject, just trying to look at the whole.
Wonderful changing again. Superb. Advice from the article you recommended:
"But if your husband has sexually molested the children, you should approach him with it. If he is truly repentant (not just exposed) and is willing to seek counseling, you may feel comfortable giving him an opportunity to prove himself,"
Now you are saying you would not do this?
That is what you mean by balance. I see. And when you recommend a right wing conservative christian nutcase's "advice" which opens with "The Scripture makes it very clear how God feels about divorce, He hates it." - it is not a "Christian problem."
How is this not a Christian problem?
Sure - secular abuse happens and secular women stay in abusive relationships for all the wrong reasons as well. But - in this case - it most certainly is a christian problem.
And I wonder where you think many women got their "values" of not facing up to what their husband does from in the first place. As I keep being reminded - our society's values are firmly rooted in The Nonsense.
I don't equate a woman being abused by her husband as being a martyr like Jesus. I think of it as spousal abuse and she should not stand for it. Jesus endured suffering in a political system for what he believed in. It's really not the same thing.
Having been subjected to the horror of the Elsie Dinsmore novels when I was a teenager, I can imagine a person who genuinely believes that being a good Christian means "keeping sweet" while putting up with horrible abuse, but I can't understand it!
For some women in that situation, it must be a coping mechanism, but it's a horribly skewed version of Christianity. When Jesus told abused slaves to "turn the other cheek," he wasn't telling them to submit more to their masters, he was encouraging peaceful defiance. You can't backhand someone whose nose is in the way, not without hurting yourself too! And wives, obviously, are not slaves, nor should they ever imagine themselves to have anything in common with them. %&$@%&& Paul for ever suggesting that we should.
Eleanor, I agree with you. One of your sentences whirled my thoughts: I have to pronounce it in favour of the topic. “If a Christian woman (or any other woman) truly loves her husband, then she should set him free to be the person he is, yet this should not include hurting herself.” Hurting, could be the core here. It will surely hurt her when he risks his own life and consequently her’s and the children’s as well. But I’ve got you, and realise that the degree of abuse does not only depends on her husband’s actions, but also on her level of sensitivity, which may be too high (negative) or too low (also negative). And now Mark’s comment has to be acknowledged: “…. There is a strong desire amongst a certain type of Christian (women) to be martyred….” I guess this type of woman regards her husbands as her god, enforced by her husband who has the audacity to do a coup-d’etat on God. So Mark, this is the problem with this particular belief system: Ignorant husbands corrupting a perfect system, discouraging their wives to THINK and ACT in accordance with God’s will.
Flightkeeper, I wish I could see this the way you do, then this wouldn’t have been an issue on my mind. Kerryg, thanks for reminding me of Elsie Dinsmore novels. And I agree with you too. For many years now I have doubts about Paul’s dictations ref women and their roles in a Christian society. In my humble opinion it doesn’t agree with Jesus’ personality, preaching or actions.
I thank you all for helping me re-organising my thoughts about this issue!
I wasn't being specific to women. There are plenty of men who seem to desire martyrdom also. This is a big fault of the Christian religion and one of the reasons it rots your brain, affecting your ability to make decisions.
Perfect system? Not as far as I am concerned. Perfection would be impossible to be corrupted. And I think - personally - that turning this issue into a religious question instead of simple common sense is a massive mistake.
You said: "according to God’s law, the man has the veto power."? Dear me. Nonsense. Utter religious nonsense written to create subservient women and sheeple unable to think for themselves. Shocked that some one of you apparent intelligence is daft enough to swallow the whole god nonsense.
Being abused by your husband? Forget the stupid religious mumbo jumbo claptrap, use your brain and get the f*** out of that relationship.
To Daniel Carter – Your comment surely cleared this issue for once and for all in my mind. By the way, this was my view too, but I got confused recently and had to verify this again. Thanks!
In rereading my response, I was probably a little overly emphatic about it. However, abuse is a raw nerve for me, and if I "over-responded" then I hope you'll forgive.
As you can tell, I have some strong opinions about this subject.
But, to be clear, my only hope is that whatever situation you find yourself in, that you will find the clarity and resolve to get to that place of peace. That is the only place where God is.
To Mark – Yes, you’re frank (amusing) opinion is rooted in many-many proved facts, and surely open to debate till lucidity reigns – when scales of values will no longer be necessary. Of course I shouldn’t have used the word ‘perfect’ – because since humans used their brains to think, all remarkable (perfect) ideologies were corrupted by those who got into power. Example communism: Was Karl Marx’s ideas not impressive, though in reality it was corrupted. (Same with capitalism.) Ref God and Christianity – guess what? I am able to distinguish between mumbo jumbo claptrap and RATIONALE – only get confused, sometimes. And thanks, I’ll keep your advice in mind when I make my decision.
As a Christian and as a human being, i would not want any woman to be abused by her husband or any other person, or vice versa.
The sacred bonds of marriage do not give a spouse the right to beat the crap out of their other half. In fact the Bible is quite clear in its instruction for "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it." It is a message of self sacrifice and love... not of hostility and violence
Not getting your way is NOT abuse. It's not getting your way. Going around acting victimized over it is called being childish. There is a huge difference.
Also, note to humanity: "God Hates Divorce, No Matter What" the same way he "hates" everyone that any conservative Christian says he does. In other words, it's all in their twisted heads. People hate. If there is a God, it doesn't hate, it loves.
P.S. Thank GOD for my two divorces. I've never known such peace since....and peace is from GOD, they say. (But I have nothing against marriage. I value it highly.)
sarmack, your statement – that (Christian) women are to be the help-meet of their Christian husbands, is exactly the principle I stand for. The problem is, too many husbands, calling themselves Christians, do not practise Christian principles at all, and most of them do not even strive to do that, and some of them truly abuse their wives (and children) to a point where the marriage is no longer in accordance with the word of God but only a disgrace for Christianity. According to the apostel Paul, a woman may divorce such a husband, but she may never marry again.
Ivorwenposted, thank you so much for the link. But the advice in the article surely makes me shudder. I’m afraid I will not be able to follow it – I rather commit suicide before challenging that hell advised by the author. She is, indeed, advising women to be martyrs and worshippers of their husbands, sacrificing their dignity, honour, joy, etc. in order for “her lord” to live “forever” in the light (love) she’s suppose to shine as a Christian. Probably she has no choice! No other roof over her head. No financial recourses. Shouldn’t churches accommodate these women with their children, like they do with orphans?
Greek, thanks for your positive comment. I just want to include VERBAL beating - meaning killing the woman’s soul and self-esteem.
I really do think Mark is a duplicate poster around here. What else would explain TWO guys being so rude and prone to false accusations? Or even THREE, possibly more? (Not you Greek One).
Gee, my faith in humanity is quickly fading......fading....
I have a Hub pool going on as to when Mark will agree to be baptized again (by me).
I haven't been a God Father in a while!
In return, he will show me how to make more that $4 a year in Adsense revenue
I wouldn't take that bet now or ever.
He might get baptized jist ta win the bet.
..And apparently he is holdin' out on ya if he told ya he only makes $4 a year. Better watch that one. haha
Dude - I will send you the $4 if you stop threatening me with baptism.
To Ivorwen and everybody – I am reading Debi Pearl’s “Created to be his Help Meet”, and I admire and envy that woman for having a husband like Michael. Now, after I have read the page you have suggested, I know that I would have given the same advice to women IF I WAS DEBI PEARL. For in her shoes I wouldn’t have had a clue what goes on in the heart and mind of an ill-treated woman.
Before I give my opinion about her advice, I just want to make it clear that I am not currently an ill-treated woman. I was married for 20 years to a husband who abused me verbally and even without words - ignoring me for days, made me feel like s#it everyday of my life. But I held on to God, study his word; I truly had an intimate and rewarding relationship with God. His words were my tranquilizers and energy-boosters. But after, or perhaps during, a traumatic operation I came to the conclusion that He does not exist. I left my husband with a heart as cold as ice, for my children were finally young adults, busy to create their own ‘homes’. Then, for 20 years I was Gnostic, studying.... mythology – the myths of all ancient nations – and many-many other subjects, searching for God. Learned a lot, understood a lot... Finally made UP my mind – He does exist, but not as a fairy godfather like most Christians (and members of other religions) believe, but as a Force, Power, Energy far beyond the comprehension of human beings. Moses referred to him as a being with a spirit. Abraham knew him as Yaweh, the Sumerian god of earthquakes and volcanic activities. Scientist ‘sees’ him as energy, or a combination of rare gasses, some philosophers refer to him as “The Truth”, Jesus called him “Our Father in Heaven”.
I recently fell in love with a Christian man and I truly want to please him in accordance with his perception of a wife – the Christian perception. And please, I do believe in Christian principles - I still have the soul/psyche of a Christian, though I get shocked by so-called Christians daily. Jesus prayed while he was dying on the cross – Father, forgive them, they don’t know what they are doing.” God knows I pray this every day, for most Christians, actually most people, don’t have a clue what they are doing to themselves and to each other while they have the opportunity to live and love on this earth.
So I am skeptic, hyper-sensitive, and cautious. I don’t want to plunge into a marriage which may be, for all I know, my 2nd hell on earth.
My comments on Debi’s page – Have too much to say about this. Will have to hub it!
To Brenda Durham – I love your comment! Perfect answer!
Thank you Brenda! I surely need some good wishes, and to all others who participated in this conversation - your opinions will surely help me to make a final decission.
So lets label this topic DONE. Once again, thank you!
This is what dictionary.com says martyr is. ahem, the definition:
1.a person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion.
2.a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause: a martyr to the cause of social justice.
3.a person who undergoes severe or constant suffering: a martyr to severe headaches.
4.a person who seeks sympathy or attention by feigning or exaggerating pain, deprivation, etc.
–verb (used with object)
5.to make a martyr of, esp. by putting to death.
6.to torment or torture.
and now the wycliffe dictionary, ahem, the definition: A martyr is to us a witness for the Lord who gives his life for his testimony as did stephen in acts for example.
It seems, majorily, a person actually has to die to become a martyr in actual fact. So the title of this hub reads, ll-treated (lol typo) Christian women: are they dead for their faith or idolators.
This is now become a contradiction in terms. No dead person can be an active idolator and i doubt an idolator could die for the testimony of jesus being an idolator.
OR we can go ll-treated Christian women, are they willing to die for their faith or are they idolators. In which case it is unsure if a willingness to die for their faith will occur. I am sure many will say, yes, to this, but, we really do not know until people are in that position. Peter denied christ and god forgave him. Its a personal choice i assume and one between the person and God. Secondly how can someone who has been put in jail and is willing to die for their faith in god be an idolator?
seems one must know the definition of a word before one goes using it.
I withdraw all comment lol.
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