Channels of God's Grace

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haj3396posted 14 years ago
It is the privilege of every soul to be a living channel through which God can communicate to the world the treasures of His grace, the unsearchable riches of Christ.
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Privilege or natural state of being
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Yet God never communicates anything, because He is imaginary.
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  rommergrotposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I can personally confirm that He is real. Only a fool believes in his heart that there is no God.
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You can't personally confirm anything except maybe delusion.
  
  And who are you calling a fool?
  
  It is the believers who are the fools. You have no evidence whatsoever of your alleged God, yet you boldly state such trash.
  
  Blindly and slavishly following the writings of Bronze Age goat herders, puts you in no position to call anyone a fool.
  
  Religion definitely causes a mental disconnect with reality.
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yep being mentally detached always helps
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  That's absurd.
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Why?
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What would be the point? What kind of "experience" would that be? NOTHING! ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes thats exactly it. That is the point. Out of nothing, there is something except you cant find that something unless you experience the nothing. Weird huh?
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  _____________________
  I agree with all of your points. Very well expressed.
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks
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  Bianuposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am healthy wealthy and wise and connected to God and all his creations. I am calm and balanced. He makes me so. I am delighted by how calmly you get through life when you acknowledge your maker.
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  china manposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You cannot confirm god as real - there has never been any proof of its existence to provide confirmation.
  
  I know there is no god and I object to your arrogant claim that I am a fool - I guess those bits of your novel that you don't like you just ignore huh - like the being humble and all that stuff.
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  haj3396posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  There is proof, you are the proof, you are no accident , you are wound-fully made. The world is proof, who made it but God. You are not a fool, you just believe in man more than God.
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Your reasoning is flawed. Please don't assume that just because we exist, that there is a God. That is nothing but conjecture.
  
  Please provide some REAL proof.
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Imagination cannot be proved only experienced. And so it is with God.
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  china manposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Absolutely, god is only in the imagination.
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And what a powerful thing it is don't you think?
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Delusions can only be experienced. And so is the delusion of God.
  
  Trying to prove a point, but not providing any proof is nonsensical.
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Agree, delusions even of God can only be experienced. Whilst imagination or delusions can only be experienced, the results of imagination is highly evident and right in front of us. The results of delusion can also come to manifestation in different ways.......
  
  Depends what proof you are talking about, physical, intellectual, spiritual?
  The wind exists we know but we cant physically see the wind we only see the effect of the wind.
  
  It also depends if one is trying to prove a point and I have nothing to prove. There is a difference between sharing a point of view and trying to prove a point. Your understanding is yours and mine is mine.... so be it. No harm no foul.
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Meaning what?
  
  Is there anything significant being said here? Proof is proof.
  
  This illogical fallacy has been dismissed already.
  
  Whenever someone boldly asserts his opinion, it is only logical for him to have something to validate that his opinion is sound and reasonable. I wouldn't assert anything if I had no evidence to corroborate it. That's whimsical.
  
  You shared. I adamantly disagree.
  
  TYPICAL!
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Proof is proof yet we cant see the wind. We need to rely on what scientists tell us. I have no physical evidence to support my belief that the wind really does exist. I only experience wind.
  
  Proof is proof yet we cant see God. We need to rely on/or not those who have experienced God or observed the result of God. I have no physical evidence to support my belief that God exists. Only observations and experience.
  
  Its okay to adamantly disagree with me. We each have our own way. I accept that.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You cannot see a sail as it is filled with air or a windmill turning in the wind? A tornado is wind! Can you not see a tornado?
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Aren't those effects of the wind, not the wind? I haven't seen a real tornado we don't get them here but on TV it looks like it is still the effect of the wind. It looks like its whipping things round in round, like dirt and debri of sorts. Wind as far as I have experienced is invisible to the naked eye yet the effects can be seen or felt for sure.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes the effect of moving air is wind. Air is mostly oxygen which may be observed under an electron microscope. In other words your statement that one cannot see wind is false! Nothing more!
  
  Now if you can get a god under a microscope and see him looking sternly back at us through the eyepiece, I will certainly be more sympathetic to your conclusions!
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  ___________________
  Everything has atoms. How do you know that God does not have atoms?
  Or that God is not those atoms?
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How do you know there is a god at all?
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  _________________
  No you cannot see a tornado. How scientific you are.
  
  You see dirt, debris etc, but you do not see the wind.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Right! "Auntie Em! Get into the storm cellar and take Toto with you! Dirt and debris are coming!" Better? LOL!
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  ___________________
  Just the cycles and seasons of everything, the male-female giving life to new creatures. The universe is orderly and not chaotic.
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Why do you feel that opinion and conjecture will suffice when I requested REAL proof?
  
  This has been debunked and dismissed already.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  ________
  LOL BY who YOU?
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  By many of us who request more than just musings! LOL!
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  __________
  Where is your proof?
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You are the proof!
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  By anyone who knows the fallacy of thinking that just because you believe something it has to be true.
  
  No matter what you say, your inane assertion is merely your opinion.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  _____
  And so is yours.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  But the bible says women are not to speak about religion in public places, doesn't it? In that case, getitrite's opinion trumps yours every time! Sorry, god's rules, not mine! LOL!
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  ___________
  That was written by the false Apostle Paul. He infiltrated the Gentiles to make God's words of no effect. He was of the tribe of Benjamin-Ravenous wolves. (I have several hubs about it)
  I do not believe in Paul or his writings. I am Jewish.
  
  Because I believe in God does not make me of the Christian belief.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The way you pick and choose which parts of the bible you agree with sure makes you sound like a christian! Why did I already know you would do so? LOL!
  
  Yeah, I knew you were one the mystic cabbage believers.
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You do not believe in the bible at all ?
  Other people believe every bit of it literally.
  
  Why should it not be? that everyone else believes different parts to different degrees?
  
  Question ... Does this mean that every one is right in their beliefs?
  
  Answer ... Yes and definitely NOT
  
  So what is the one and only correct answer?
  
  I don't think we can all agree upon what that question is let alone find the answer?
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Nope, no more than I believe in any other religion's handbook for living one's life! I see no reason to put any more stock in this book than any other ancient text. Especially since its message contains both hate and love.
  
  I would think an omnipotent deity would do a better job of making his message a little clearer, especially considering most of the writers were compiling these books for a largely illiterate superstitious people.
  
  If the book were written in a godly manner we would not have so many different cults believing different things under the name of christianity. Why would your god make the bible so contradictory if he wanted his message believable. Trying to trick us?
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  YOU said ... considering most of the writers were compiling these books for a largely illiterate superstitious people.
  
  I think you have answered your own question in your statement above?
  AND
  There is love and hate in the bible cause that is what is in the world.
  In our understanding of anything will always be found a reflection of ourselves.
  
  I don't think that we will ever find any kind of absolute truth until we learn to eliminate that problem.
  
  Now I really do gotta go for a while, see ya later.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  _____________
  It's not meant to be understood by those who are not of God.
  Luke 8:10
  And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The standard disclaimer which is intended to avoid having to explain contradictions in the novel! Then why put the info in the book in the first place if it does no good towards helping anyone but those who already believe in it?
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  ___________
  You say you believe in science? Don't you need a teacher to halfway understand it? Or were you born with the knowledge?
  
  Your arguments don't make sense and are ridiculous.
  
  The Jewish scripture does not contradict.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, a teacher is indeed a great aid when studying any subject, but only if the subject is one dealing with known facts! But a teacher cannot give every tiny facet of the subject. This when a reliable book can help immensely with the pertinent details a teacher doesn't have time to address!
  
  So, there are no contradictions in the Old Testament?
  
  I am not surprised at your opinions of my arguments, Debbie! Why don't you just shuffle your little Tarot cards and give me a reading? I understand you are an ordained Rabbi. Believe in numerology and would not be surprised if you also believed in the silly little "what color are you" BS!
  
  Jewish Mysticism seems right up your alley though! I see you don't mention being a psychic anywhere on your profile, that's something you need to get a certification for if you want to go whole hog! Oops, you don't eat pig, sorry! LOL!
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  _________
  The way I pick and choose?
  All Jewish accept only portions of the Bible. Always have, always will. Paul's writings are not in the Jewish bible. They were added by Constantine to the English Bible.
  If it doesn't agree with the Torah and prophets, it's not Jewish.
  Just because it is written in the English bible doesn't make it of the Jewish religion.
  
  I will choose what I believe and whatever it is, it is my business and none of yours. What you think, means nothing to me LOL
  Who are you?
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  ___________
  And how do you know? Where is your proof?
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Can you prove god isn't Satan in disguise?
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't trust your "personal confirmation" - I very much doubt your relationship with God is anymore than mine was - one-sided
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Wow you are so very close. Imagination is how the whole of creation was created. All that exists...even..the computer you are typing on was created by imagination.
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Whose imagination? And provide some proof to validate your assertions, if that's not too much to ask.
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  We could be here indefinitely providing proof of whose imagination created all that exists, here are just a few examples which I am sure you know of already.
  
  Zonrad Zuse - 1st programmable computer
  Christopher Sholes - Typewriter
  The Wright brothers - Airplane
  Alexander Bell - Telephone
  Alexander Bain - Fax
  Thomas Edison - Light bulb
  
  Each of these inventors first needed an imagination to create what they created. If no imagination existed there is nothing to create. Unless you know of some other way they were created? I am open to hearing your view if there is.
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  A misunderstanding in communication--
  
  I was asking you about this sentence that you wrote, not the whole paragraph:
  
  "Imagination is how the whole of creation was created."
  
  Yes we know that Edison and the other inventors invented these products, but what do you mean by the "whole of creation?"
  Because man did not create the universe. It wasn't man's imagination that created the universe. I'm asking you, Whose imagination was it?
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh yes so it seems. Sorry about that.
  
  If imagination created the things we know it has created. Would it not make sense that this imagination has created the universe. It also stands to reason it has an infinite potential to create more. What exists today in our world would have seemed so impossible many centuries ago.
  
  This imagination, some call it God some call it the infinite potential, or the nothingness. Our culture calls it the parentless. Doesn't matter what we label it or how we choose to describe it. The power to create or destroy exists when certain conditions arise.
  
  What conditions existed when the universes were created I don't know, I wasn't there as I know me today. So I couldn't tell you whose imagination it was.
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  mandy1313posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  God is not IMAGINARY
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Do you have proof? Then let's hear it.
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  Rare Jewelposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Amen, I agree.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You agree? Well heck, if you had just posted earlier we could have avoided this entire discussion! Well, I suppose this thread is over! LOL!
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  Kimberly Bunchposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Please continue...I'm waiting....
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aka-djposted 14 years ago
If you want to know God, don't keep asking for "proof". NONE will be forthcoming.
He DID promise that those who "seek Him, with all their heart WILL find Him".
Fools, indeed.
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  When will you understand simple reasoning? You are asking that we all have rigid blind faith in something we can't detect with any of our senses, lest we be foolish, indeed.
  
  If I told you I owned a bridge on the planet Zolton, would any of you believers be foolish enough to purchase it?
  
  This is what religion is tantamount to, yet you are calling someone else foolish. This is EXTREMELY ABSURD!!!
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I guessed correctly!
  
  You are NOT a seeker, just a cheap critic.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Or perhaps he has an answer and you just don't like it?
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  His answer is just that, his!
  I can live with that too. It's his, after all.
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  No Sir. You called me a fool. I simply defended myself against your unprovoked attack, now you cry foul, the way a psychopathic bully would behave.
  
  Just because I refuse to let you get away with ignorant fraudulent statements, you think you can label me. Your reply to my statement is irrelevant and absurd.
  
  I would much rather be a cheap critic, than the delusional psychotic, believing in childish nonsensical fairytales--as you would like me to be..
  
  Why don't you actually read my posts, instead of disagreeing soley on the grounds that it does not fit your psychotic delusional beliefs? My posts represent the epitome of logic, yet you look right over that and label me a non-seeker? A seeker of nonsense is no seeker at all.
  
  Religious beliefs are pure GARBAGE!
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  _____________
  I am pretty sure he was just quoting scripture
  Psalm 14:1
  The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  He still has to take responsibility for referencing an absurd and dishonest insult from the bible. Since he quoted it, it is inferred that he agrees with it, therefore he is insulting anyone who doesn't agree with his foolish illogical beliefs.
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'd say from the volume of your reply, you are insulting me ten-to-one. I merely categorised you as a non-seeker, thereby being a fool by definition in the Bible.
  But, unlike you, I take no offence.
  I hope your "epitome of logic" serves you well!
  
  BTW, if the religion forum causes you such offence, then do yourself a favour, and stay out! It's ILLOGiCAL to place yourself, knowingly, into harm's way.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So if I look up moron in the dictionary and use the definition as a reference to your intelligence, would that be okay with you? Using the bible to insult someone is no different than quoting from any other book for the same purpose! No breaks for the believers here, or I hope not for reasons of equality on this site!
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So, you think I'm a moron? Or are you calling me one?
  
  Is that coming from your intimate knowledge of me
  or just a logical, reasonable opinion, from a highly educated, tolerant intelectual?
  
  BTW, was I TALKING to YOU?
  
  Yet another (easily) offended, non-religious contributor to the RELIGION forum.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  When are you going to grasp the concept that having a negative opinion about religion is a valid viewpoint? Thankfully you can no longer burn heathens and unbelievers at the stake.
  
  I know you were not talking directly to me but your aggressive desire that people who do not believe in Invisible Super Beings STOP voicing their opinion applies to me also so I hope you are not offended.
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  aka-djposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hello Mark.
  I'm honoured you still notice me.
  
  Did I tell you about the time I burned a witch at the stake?
  Oh, no, I couldn't have, because I never did that!
  Or about the war I started a few years ago?
  Darn it, I didn't do that either.
  
  Oh wel, I guess it's all just empty accusations, yet again!!!
  Keep those opinions coming though....
  
  PS. OFFENDED??? NEVER.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No, get it right ,Gods word has called you a fool ( if you refuse wisdom) for correction if adhered too ,but God always calls you (and me) many other names like 'beloved' 'precious' 'blessed' 'destined' there are many other positive titles all with a purpose, to edify,uplift and encourage.
  
  Much better than pulling down, critising or namecalling,dont ya think
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The same goes for the words of Daniel Webster, who was considered a god to some and has his own book of beliefs. As long as Daniel says the person is described in the holy dictionary by a particular word, it is okay to use it to insult someone in a post! Or does this only pertain to a book only some believe in?
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  china manposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  This is what the thread has been discussing - you will only find whatever you think it is in yourself, in your imagination. Living your life to the edicts of your own imagination is extreme arrogance - calling those who don't buy into your personal imaginary god 'fools' just displays that mindless arrogance.
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  Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It's funny, the Bile speaks of money 7 times greater than heaven and hell combined, not the mystic feeling I get from Jesus. It seems more disgraceful when you think of the money greed and what money has the least to do with happiness.
  
  Imagination is the most powerful tool; it can be used negatively or positive. I can't imagine people in the bible, can tell me how I should lead my life, when their life expectancy is only in the mid 20s . How can they teach me any better than people living in the now, at the age of 80?
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  china manposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think you are answering soemone else post - but. I think that there are loads of good information in the ancient texts about life and society. When life was more simple in regard to what people understood of the world around them they only had society and personal relationships to think about. Without the myopiae of religion that debases any meaning by talking of the metaphors as real things - then the information is clear and useful, as is any other text.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  ___________
  Please give the scripture about money to prove your 7X argument.
  Don't just post untrue statements to try and prove your point.
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  the bile for the bible - seems appropriate
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  Eaglekiwiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Quite the contrast ,people lived alot longer way back ,because of diet and lifestyle.
  
  No big Macs way back then -no sir
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I sought God with all my heart and didn't find him
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pennyofheavenposted 14 years ago
Yes the effect of moving air is wind. Air is mostly oxygen which may be observed under an electron microscope. In other words your statement that one cannot see wind is false! Nothing more!

Now if you can get a god under a microscope and see him looking sternly back at us through the eyepiece, I will certainly be more sympathetic to your conclusions!
.................................................................................................................................................

Sorry Randy did not have a reply button because we were going right off the page!

Yes if we all had a microscope that is true. I am talking average people who don't have a microscope and only have use of the naked eye. We cannot see the wind but we can see the effects and we believe wind exists. We cannot see God but we can see the effects. We don't have scientific equipment to prove that yet but who will have access to them if and when they do? Only scientists... So lets say at some time in the future they discover the process of God (I didn't say I believed God was a him) and are adamant they have proof. Suddenly God exists because they have the equipment to prove it?

Before microscopes were invented wind still existed.
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  actually air is mostly nitrogen, not oxygen. One doesn't need scientific equipment to know that air exists - can inflate a balloon for example
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  mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  One doesn't need scientific equipment to know what turns a warm heart cold or what turns a cold heart warm either.
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  What turns a warm heart cold and a cold heart warm? And just how do you determine(without scientific equipment) that your answer is correct.
  
  I personally would use a scientific piece of equipment called a thermometer, thus determining that the answer is the temperature.
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  mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Using a thermometer is one way. It shows me that the user is not confident enough in themselves to make a rather easy observation.
  
  let me explain: well try to. First, I can't see how a thermometer can measure the actions of either a cold hearted or warm hearted person.
  
  Here is an example: Of a warm heart turning cold
  
  We got a little boy starting school, kindergarten. He is a bubbly little boy. Always smiling, sharing, giving, but he is a little different than the other kids. Some kids make fun of him, day in/day out. As the years go by, the boy now in high school still being bullied, is withdrawn, sad, hardly speaks. He has reported the abuse over and over, only to be punished for "tatteling".....................................
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  mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  getitrite. It does not take science to determine what turns peoples hearts cold.
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  So what are the other methods, if science is not to be employed in the pursuit of determining how one arrived at a cold heart?
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  mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  getitrite: you believe and defend science to the max. That is fine and well.
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  mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  But do you think that maybe in some ways that same science is going to be used against us?
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  *Smokescreen*
  
  This has nothing to do with the premise.
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  mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Just because you think it doesn't doesn't mean its a smokescreen.
  
  That is reality.
  
  Who is using what to alter our food?
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How is this an example of anything to do with religion? This happens in situations bereft of any religious influence! Should we merely ignore delusion in others knowing it may cause even more strife in the future?
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You have just employed the science of psychology. I thought you didn't need science to arrive at an answer.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Some do not need outside proof of anything, getitrite! They are simply satisfied by their own delusional conceptions and look no further than what they wish things to be. Perfect candidates for religious nonsense. The Jonestown massacre is a perfect example of this type of "blind faith."
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  mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Randy, do you agree that it might also be said that the events at columbine were a product of a warm heart turned cold?
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  mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My point in this is, instead of trying to tear one another down for what they believe, and causing bad feelings, why can't we channel the energy used in doing that into something progressive?
  
  We are headed for some very rough times. Believers and non-believers are going to have to get along.
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Agreed. But it would be much easier if believers were cured of their psychosis first.
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  mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That goes both ways does it not?
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Do you know the definition of psychosis, Mom?
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  mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Randy, I is just a cuntry gal, but don't resort to attacking intellegence.
  
  It aint cool.
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  PLEASE EDIT THIS WORD I HIGHLIGHTED!
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Wasn't going to touch that one! LOL!
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  mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  oops.
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  mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  hey, i jest learned how to edit
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No attack, Mom! Merely a question because I would like to hear your definition of the word!
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  mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well in all honesty, I do not believe in the word.
  
  My counsel is with the Creator.
  
  I understand the need for more jobs i really do. But not this way.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I do understand! I feel the same way about ministers!
  
  And psychosis is not a job, by the way! LOL!
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  mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  nope> just the entryway to what is
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Remain in denial then! So did those at Jonestown! Do you think they are now in heaven because of following the insane leader?
  
  Or were they not responsible for believing in the man? They exhibited blind faith, just like you are doing now! Were they different than you are now? They didn't need logic or to use their own minds.
  
  They simply believed what they were told. Sad, especially for the children who had no say so in their parents idiotic beliefs! "But I am not like that", you may protest! They would have said the same if queried!
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You are confusing "hearts" with attitudes, Mom! One's heart stays at roughly the same temperature no matter the thoughts or actions of the owner.
  
  Those who gave their children the poisoned Kool-Aid were no different than you! They convinced themselves they were doing the right thing and did not want to face reality!
  
  Do you think their faith was any less than yours, or is your faith more true than theirs? How warm was those peoples hearts? They simple refused to face reality, much as you do when you refuse to look for substantiation of your beliefs other than "I believe because I want to."
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  mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  My point to any scenario was exactly as you just mentioned. Reality.
  
  It has nothing to do with the actual temperature of an organ.
  
  People get so overwhelmed with reality that they lose any sense of reality.
  
  People go through hard knocks, bullying, extensive hard times, and so much more that their hearts are hardened.
  
  It is a crying shame that we treat anyone this way.
  
  Humanity? We are losing site of what it is.
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Ok, so you have just described some aspects of the sciences of Psychology and Sociology. I thought you had no use for science in determining anything. You seem to believe in science to the max.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Once again, this type of behavior has always been around, Mom! It has nothing whatsoever to do with your god. You can blame the lack of faith on such actions but you see the same thing from those claiming to be enlightened. You know, those thinking they are god's chosen who believe others are not right in their own thinking and will go to hell.
  
  Judging those based on an old novel with no basis in fact seems rather crude when the answers are there for those not afraid to learn about science.
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  mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am no judge. Period. The Book, yeah, I've read it. Would much rather be able to read the original, but as it may, I use it as is as a guide.
  
  My heart, conscience or whatever is what I have to listen to.
  
  There is a small still voice in each of us. Now, don't go shouting proof, proof, its just there.
  
  We have got to find a way to end the strife between the 2 beliefs.
  
  Science, it is not all good. But you know this.
  
  Government or somebody is using it against us.
  
  Im goin to sleep.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know with what authority you say "There is a small still voice in each of us" when you can only speak for yourself, with no ability to see inside of the rest of us!
  
  I have no problem with your beliefs as long as you don't tell me your god is better than mine. I wouldn't think of doing that to you! Good nite1
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  sometimes listening to these "small voices" has led parents to murder their children eg Andrea Yates
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  ________________
  She had serious diagnosed mental illness due to hormonal changes during childbirth.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  There is only one belief. You are causing the strife by insisting we listen to the small, still voice in your head. Keep that voice where it belongs and you will not cause the strife. Simple really. What you really mean is you want people who do not believe to keep quiet.
  
  Nothing is all "good," because "good," is a completely subjective term.
  
  The Government Inc uses everything - including your religion - against you.
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  this behaviour happens "in the faith" too - I've written hubs about my experience of spiritual abuse eg being told I was possessed by the devil when I was ill
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  A disturbing reality!
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  mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Why do say disturbing?
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  mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How can science comfort? We know science can heal, at least for now, but even at that, when they go to altering plant life, anyway you look at it, medicine is bam altered as well.
  
  Let's look at sweeteners for example. Let's say they alter the sugar, put it in sodas, people drink them, and ya know, there is always a little left in the bottle/can. A week later, a colony of ants find the remains and feast on it. 5 or six generations later do you think this has alterd the ants at all?
  
  There are some major scary concerns on the horizon. We have to start thinking for ourselves, and together.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Funny you should mention "thinking for ourselves." Does this mean denying the facts because they do not fit your delusion?
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  So I suggest you stop using anything that has derived from science. You'd be surprised how many things and concepts you will need to give up.
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Do you think it would be disturbing if I still believed in Santa Claus as a middle-aged ADULT?
  
  Religion is comparable to an adult still believing in childhood fairytales, and that is disturbing. It doesn't matter that billions believe it. In fact, that makes it even more disturbing.
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  mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Science can be a great thing. But, if one were to "believe" in only it, that person is in essence putting their fate into someones hands.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  But science can be examined from a realistic viewpoint with various tests to determine the validity of the particular subject.
  
  Not so religion! How do you research religion when there is only one source of information with no way to test the results other than dying?
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  mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Life maybe? Not reproduction. Life. How did the first person come to exist?
  
  I think we all know how reproduction works, but what about the first person, with only one person in existence, how did reproduction take place?
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You obviously do not care to learn about the basic building blocks of life forms. Since you do not understand, nor seem to consider it necessary to want to, you simply say "god did it."
  
  In the same vein though, who made your god? You seem to believe human life had to have been created by something but don't require the same for your imagined deity! Why not? Because your book, written by unknown men, said so?
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Could you accept the answer as: We just don't know exactly how that happened? Can you? There is no need to assign something to an invisible imaginary deity, just because it is perplexing
  
  It appears that sexual reproduction evolved as well. But some organisms have, and still do reproduce themselves without the aid of sex.
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  mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The first part of your reply would be ok. No one KNOWS exactly how.
  
  But, to the Giver of Life, we do owe respect. To Nature, we owe respect.
  Some people have told me I sound like Naturlist. Maybe? What is that?
  
  Humanity, we are going to have to come together. Pride, is ok in its place.
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So you think it is ok to assume that an imaginary deity is responsible for creating life? I prefer to be more prudent than that, and just stick to what we do know.
  
  Your thinking is simply wishful thinking based upon your indoctrination. Nothing more.
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  mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ok. Glad you clarified that for me.
  
  It is breakfast time around here.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  But how was it determined before the thermometer was invented? ,or anything for that matter.
  
  Food for thought,perhaps
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Excellent food for thought.
  
  I would be interested to know too.
  
  As an aside;
  Before maps and compasses were invented our people used the stars to navigate across the sea. Some still do.
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  this "heart" seems to be a slippery and vague concept - it's not the organ that pumps blood around the body you are referring to.
  
  Seems to be referring to feelings. I've learned not to trust feelings - feelings are a delusion
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  Castlepalomaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I trust my feeling, thats like leading with the heart, shortly followed by the mind.
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  mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yep, but has your head and your heart ever been against each other or maybe even in agreement?
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't trust my feelings. I am very sensitive to food chemicals - eg salicylates that are naturally present in fruit - these chemicals mess with my brain and trigger a depressed mood. I have to wait for it to wear off - a few hours or a few days depending on dose. During this time, I don't feel very positive about things or very worthwhile.
  These feelings are not truth.
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Depends where your feelings arise from. Sometimes they arise from past experience and conditions, other times they come from a place deep inside you. That quiet voice within that often cannot be heard through the noise of our minds or ego if you like.
  
  Logic or the mind sometimes can lead us to believe we have limited strength. Yet given the right environmental conditions, that which is deep within can override the logic of our minds if we allow it to.
  
  Like when a mum who can lift a car to save her baby. Logically her mind will say its impossible but when the mind is out of the way and the heart of hearts rises to the occasion. What was impossible becomes and extraordinary feat that goes against what logic held to be true.
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  mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  pennyofheaven, that is so true.
  
  But, the sad thing is, this logic is just not scientific enough for their minds to understand.
  
  The battle that is being fought is not between each other.
  
  This neither can they or do they choose to see.
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  which battle are you referring to - spiritual?
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  where does the "heart of hearts" originate? You mean the will? Intuition? Attachment emotions? Surely that's in the brain too
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  mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  baileybear, if I understand correctly, you don't believe in God?
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How to explain the unexplainable...mmm.....yes it's there but doesn't originate there because it has no beginning and no end. So I don't know. When looking at a circle can you tell where its starts and finishes?
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes that is the effect of wind as I have mentioned before.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Cool! Inflate a balloon with god and I'll be more attentive to your opinions!
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How do you know thats not what your inflating it with?
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well, when I finally get it blown up it has big boobs and looks more like a "goddess" than a god!
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Haha the imagery is too funny! Thanks for the laugh.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The same to you! LOL!
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  This is still provable evidence of wind or moving air. But so far there is no evidence of your unseen deity, just as there is no evidence of all the many other past gods worshiped over the ages.
  
  Using your logic, is it possible all of the other supposed gods exist? There is no more proof of them than the one you claim to believe in, is there?
  
  Do you think it possible they exist also? A gaggle of gods perhaps?
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Amazing, for me, this discussion is now merging with another discussion on the same thread.
  
  Evidence of Gods existence or perhaps I should describe it as the effects (to keep in line with the descriptions used so far) of Gods existence can be seen in everything that is manifest.
  
  No we do not have any equipment that can analyze the process of how we and all things in the manifest were created.
  
  We do however know that much of what is created for mans comfort and convenience came from imagination. Rather than go through the whole dialogue on Imagination again you might want to read it..... or not.
  
  Imagination exists yet we cannot see it. We see the effects or results of imagination and yet some do not question its origin nor do some people contemplate on the infinite capabilities of it. Why? Because its called imagination and not God.
  
  Whatever we label this powerful source of creation (and destruction I might add) will not change its function.
  
  This brings me to your "other Gods" statement. Whatever the different cultures, people, sects, religions choose to call this source (for me anyway) seem to be labeling the same function.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Delusion often masquerades as imagination! And because you attribute natural things to god means nothing to any one but you! I could very well say I see Satan in all churches, but like you, it would only be my take on it. Neither of us can disprove the other delusions, right?
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Right!
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm glad I don't have any such delusions to try and convince others of! I have science instead!
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Okay if you say so.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I can prove science exists, ya know! I've got a book! And if the book says......
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  pennyofheavenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  lol
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Jeramiposted 14 years ago
Ngetitrite wrote
...

No Sir. You called me a fool. I simply defended myself against your unprovoked attacked,

- - - - --

HMmmm ?
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  mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  everyone has the right to denial. it's a sad thing actually.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  True! But denial can work both ways! Denial of the truth, or denial of falsity!
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Jeramiposted 14 years ago
Sometimes the religion and phylosophy forums remind me of the story of the three bears ....
only difference is

Popa bear says YOUR porage is too cold AND ...
Mama bear says NO YOUR porage is too HOT ...
Back and forth and back and forth ...

And baby bear got tired of hearing that crap, didn't care if it was hot or cold... and ate his/hers then ....
went out side to play.

Baby bear comes back in later ... they are still argueing ... don't matter any more if it is hot or cold cause the flies has gotten to it by then.

getitrite, do you see anyone you know in this metaphore ?
Bet ya can't guess which one ya are playing ?
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think that babybear should go back outside and play.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  But if one of the bears has a thermometer, the point is moot, Jerami!
  
  And if the bears can talk, they probably would have no problem obtaining a thermometer! Sorry, your analogy starts out with an impossibility which adds immediate confusion to your example!
  
  Got anything based in reality to show your point?
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That seems to be the whole aim of his assertions. Most of them are way off point and irrelevant.
  
  Sorry, that's about the best you are gonna get.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Dang! I wanted to hear about Little Red Riding Hood and how the wolf got saved!
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  mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Woul ya listen?
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Sure, but I wouldn't necessarily believe the tale just because it was in an old book! LOL!
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  fits3x100posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ok. "Unprovoked attack"... Sorry Mark and getitrite, these Christians did not respond to your posts...in a forum titled atheist anything...and call YOU irrational or Psychotic. That was you. Get that right.
  If you have ever witnessed the birth of anything...and still deny intelligent design, your faith is greater than mine to be sure. Your religion more solidly rooted.
  Read the book of Job...oldest book in the "Novel" . Notice the complete and totally correct description of the hydrological cycle...written by a "middle east goat herder" that wasn't even described in it's completeness by anyone else until the 19th century.
  Notice too the discussion of ice....behemoth...leviathan...
  More and more physicist's are leaning towards intelligent design.
  Agreed, Churches have done more to harm God's image in mankind than all of the atheist combined. But, understand, not all believers match your mental image, just as not all un-believers match mine...eh?
  Oh yes...the description of "testing wind and finding air is un-empirical at best. Wind is not air. Wind is the force behind or in front of Atmospheric masses segregated by temperature and water content, causing them to collide and move...millions of variables at work... I'm not smart enough to make that happen globe wide...let alone in a little tiny test tube.
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  But these Christians DID use abusive language, whenever there was nothing but level-headed discussion coming from the nonbeliever camp. That is unprovoked.
  
  I prefer to think that your mind is not as expansive.
  
  So there is a little truth in a book of profound absurdities otherwise. This proves nothing.
  
  Is that true, or are you being dishonest like many religionist are? Could you point me to an unbiased source to corroborate your claim that more and more physicists are leaning towards Intelligent Design?
  
  It's not just the church, it is the insane beliefs, themselves, that are so conflicting. You are no different from the church.
  
  I think most of us know that. But some of us would rather be dishonest and pretend that the answer is: GODDUNIT!
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  fits3x100posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Foul. You and your pals have called believers here delusional more times than I can count. I've heard precious little name calling or sloppy generalizations from their camp towards yours.
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Have you ever seen a bear holding a thermoter?
  
  They don't in my neck of the woods, you silly squirl. LOL
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And how many talking bears eating porridge have you observed, Jerami? Your example, not mine! LOL! You brought it into the conversation! Now who's a "silly squirt"? Doh!
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm guessing that there are at least two of us.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I know there are many more than just two of you! LOL!
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  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  NO man ... we are together in that one.
  
  You silly squirrel.
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Woman Of Courageposted 14 years ago
The discussion about the air and the wind is very interesting. We can't see the wind, but we know it's there. I can't see God's face, but I know he is there. Wow!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Wow! So is the Star Goat. You cannot see it, but because you cannot see the wind - the Star Goat vomited the Earth. Wow! Another Star Goat follower. Welcome.
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  Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It is really quite amazing that this argument is still being used as it is almost one of the most fallacious and fabricated arguments believers embrace. And, no matter how much they are shown it to be so, they continue to use it as if in the very next moment they completely forgot what they were shown.
  
  It's hard to believe they aren't arguing that fish float in midair considering they can't see the water through their aquariums.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  How do you know which god you are referring to?
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  getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  Superb logic. Ok, just because I can't see the Flying Spaghetti Monster's face, doesn't mean He is not there, because I know that he is there?
  
  ...and the Pink Unicorn
  Zeus
  Appollo
  Crum
  Hercules
  Santa...
  
  Ramen
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Sure, the believers have to admit these all exist too! Unless of course, they can prove otherwise!
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  fits3x100posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  William A. Dembski makes some thoughtful observations. I would suggest reading his work at http://www.designinference.com/document … OR_ID.pdf. I admire your fire. And bless your heart fella's, I've seen a lot more jammin' and crammin' of hypothesis on your parts here then the believers... I'm really encouraged by their patience and delivery...gives me great hope that Jesus has some really decent followers!
  As far as unbiased views go, search the debate regarding origins of the universe at all the sites.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Jammin and crammin meaning BS? LOL! And of course, you are not biased?
  
  Your link doesn't work! Satan's work, unless you can prove otherwise! Doh!
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Jeramiposted 14 years ago
@ get it rit ... A person does not have to be "edjucimcated" to be inteligent.

Last year I didn't even know whut a Enjinere wuz and now I are one. Just kidding ... but you know what I'm talking about.
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evvy_09posted 14 years ago
It amazes me how many religious people fail to understand Faith means "Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence" this is from the American Heritage Dictionary.
There is a God but I don't think it is what most people think he is or most religions. I'm not part of any religions because what I have seen, it causes more conflict and hatred than most anything else. I went to a Catholic school for years before insisting on going to a public. Funny how the exact type of pointless hatred went on in both schools.
I am always open to the possibility that I am wrong. People used to swear that the sun revolved around the Earth but they Were proven wrong eventually.
But I do ask that if you are a believer to please, PLEASE stop throwing around absurd proof that there is a god. It makes believers look bad and it's just annoying.
I have found that if someone constantly feels the need to prove themselves, it only means that they are trying to squash that doubt telling them they are wrong. That last sentence does go for both sides of the discussion.
But aside from all that, I hope everyone has a Awesome holiday season and is having fun preparing to make 2011 even better!!!
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  fits3x100posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The Church actually threatened Galileo's life because he suggested the Earth was a sphere...They should have read both Job and Genesis...More than a few of the Prophets too described the Earth and planets as spherical...
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So, the church didn't read or understand the bible? Sounds like today!
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  mom101posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  fits3x100, welcome to the hubpages. Glad to see ya in here. Hope your sleeves are rolled up good n tight, the road in some of these here forums get kinda bumpy.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I disagree! As long as one doesn't resort to using unprovable statements the road is as smooth as glass!
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  fits3x100posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks Mom. Abortion rates through the roof, broken families(I started coaching Varsity sports in the 90's, 30-40% of the kids were dealing with divorce, this year 2 out of 14 were raised with their bio-parents.) Violence in schools,homes, churches... This is nothing. I appreciate their passion, channeled correctly...it could change the world!
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Are we to assume that you know the proper way to channel these things correctly while others of us do not? Are you from the bible belt?
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  fits3x100posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  hehehe...nope. I had my time of persecution at those hands! Man Randy, I wish I had the whole answer to that one. And anyone...not just you or me with passion? Can change the world eh? I'm hopin' all of us here want a better world for our kids than the one we're leaving.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  There is no doubt we want our kids to have it better! But teaching them a mysterious deity is watching them is not the way to go! They must understand the world and how it really works, not that an imaginary being is running everything!
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  Baileybearposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  please quote the part in the bible where it says the earth is a sphere (and not a circle - which is flat)
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seanorjohnposted 14 years ago
mark Knowles is into negative marketing. Go on,threaten to sue me. He makes fun of religion and gets loads of traffic.
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  Uninvited Writerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Mark doesn't need this forum to get traffic, internal Hub traffic is practically useless to earning money anyway.
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Like you know all about getting traffic! HOO!
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  fits3x100posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  hehehe... arguing about faith for hits! Genius! And Thanks seanorjohn, .. motives motives motives...
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  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I would not advise a newcomer to listen to senorjohn concerning how to attract traffic to your hubs, fits! I would normally refer to his belief that Mark is trying to get traffic as delusional, but you seem not to favor the word.
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  fits3x100posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  yeah...kinda seems presumptuous... for me at least. I don't know anyone here well enough to call them delusional...hehehe... not sayin'
  
  I did just post on the other thread we've been bouncing around with a question for you re/ origins of the universe and am really interested on your thoughts... If you get time tonight. I'll be back on in the pm tomorrow and touch base.
  Thanks!
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  58
  Randy Godwinposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'll surely check it out, sounds interesting! You are correct about not knowing anyone here well enough to call them delusional!
  
  But you will, you seem able to separate fact from fiction better than some on these threads! You might even use the word yourself despite your present feelings! HA!
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  93
  habeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  We don't know anyone here well enough to call them delusional? Well, actually...LOL!!
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75
Eaglekiwiposted 14 years ago
Keyword 'Courteous'

Treat one another courteously "Jesus said"

One person believes,another does not.

One person beleives in pink elephants, another does not.( my words)

Thats ok with me,cuz Im a gonna be courteous.

You be you, and I be me.
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1. 59
  fits3x100posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Wise Eaglekiwi...Wise.
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Eaglekiwiposted 14 years ago
Thank you Fits ,sometimes I even surprise myself

Welcome to Hubpages by the way!
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58
Jeramiposted 14 years ago
getitrite wrote:

I personally would use a scientific piece of equipment called a thermometer, thus determining that the answer is the temperature.
- - - -

What piece of scientific equipment would ya use to determine how big a persons pride is?

What would you use to measure how much you love your wife or children?

How many things can we not measure yet determine it to be too much or not enough?
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