believers always say non believers are false, but they can't explain their religion logically or rationally. why not even two believers agree on there beliefs, but still go on talking non sense?
can anybody explain.
It's called religious indoctrination. It removes and destroys the ability to think, to use reason and rationale and the capacity for understanding.
Hey Beelz, you cannot even reason without borrowing from the Christian worldview.
Please, tell me how you reason? Then tell me how you assess that reasoning to be valid? (Oh yeah, don't write a book.)
Truth is Truth. It's a universal knowledge for which all humans can know and understand reality.
I've several hubs that explain it, because it's required for peace.
C'mon, this God-gives-meaning-to-logic argument has been done to death. See http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ … logic.html for example.
Why do you ask that we should not write a book (long response)? Are you more comfortable with simple and short answers or do you shy away from significant discussion? I'm not criticising, I'm just saying that I have seen this before - religious people don't seem to be interested in discussions...
Simeonvisser: Yes I have read Dr Martin's TANG and I have even read Dr Frames response to it.
I have even listened to the debate Dr Greg Bahnsen and Dr Martin had... wait, I mean lecture Dr Bahnsen gave because Martin did not attend the debate, for no better explanation than "he didn't want to benefit the Christians monetarily."
I understand why you would comment the way you did about the long responses. Read some of the rabble people put forth even in this thread and you can understand why I do not want long responses. But if you are willing to dialogue I am willing. I even have a hub on this: http://hubpages.com/hub/Creationism-Ath … everything
(I just noticed somebody commented on the hub, excuse me if I respond to that comment also. But feel to just comment also, you do not need to read it and we can find a better place to dialogue. BTW, I am impressed you even know the Transcendental argument is.)
It's called the '5 senses' indoctrination. Being carnal removes and destroys the ability to think spiritually, to use faith or belief. The capacity for understanding anything supernatural or beyond the limits of flesh, fully controlled and numbed by the dictates of what they can feel, touch, taste, hear and see, the UNbeliever has like a disease of leprosy, ever creeping and taking more and more territory until, the most depressing of states occurs - no hope. And because of this mind numbing disease this state is accepted and to those who neuroreceptors are the most destroyed, they begin to preach this '5 senses' as being all there is and then they get all fanatical about how wonderful a doctrine the '5 senses' are! How rational and reasonable and comforting. But in reality, the 5 senses have lied to them. There is so much evidence surrounding each person, above and beyond but they don't see it. They see nebulas and think "oh yah thats natural", NO its not! its supernatural. The picture is incredible but the actual thing itself is so much more than incredible and different. But the '5 senses' are picture weary, having googled a hundred nebula pictures it has all become mundane and unexciting. The church of '5 senses' to a christian is like the brutishness of beasts and the bark of trees, dead yet animated, thinking yet dull of thought, seeing but blind, hearing but deaf.
That is not correct. Every believer and non-believer has the ability to use faith and believe. Please don't confuse the term "think" with "spirituality" as they are not related in any way. When one thinks, they use reason and rationale to form an understanding.
Impossible, the supernatural has not been shown to exist by you or anyone else, hence it does not require capacity for understanding as there is nothing to understand.
While it's clear you have some problem with reality as far as sense are concerned, there isn't anything beyond those senses you or anyone else is able to show existing. Deal with it.
Either you haven't a clue as to the definition of 'supernatural' or you feel the need to fabricate stories and reveal where the actual lies reside. Sorry, but nebulas are well known phenomenon and are not supernatural, by any stretch of the imagination.
Yes, whatever it is you wish to believe beyond reality is entirely your decision to make. But, no matter how much you hate reality for what it is, you'll never show beyond a religious indoctrination and the pages of a bible anything else.
How do you assess whether someone uses reason or rationale?
I don't think you really believe you think that, "there isn't anything beyond those senses..."
C'mon, perhaps you can give me a jar of rationale? Package up some logic would you? Perhaps you can show me what it looks like? Do you have any ideas? I bet you can't weigh those. Or what sense do you use to assess these?
You leave brotheryochanan alone, though he misses the whole point of worldviews here, and explain to me what you say about "nothing beyond the senses."
In my opinion it seems that too much is left up tointerpretation of the individual. I personally am not religious but do think that when the people that have the same beliefs cant agree then it just makes it all seem even more non-sensical.
Well I disagree with you.
That makes what you just stated a little more "non-sense."
because their 'decision' to believe wasn't rational/logical in the first place
If two people see an apple and one says that it is green and the other says that it is red, do we then have evidence that the apple does not exist? We have evidence that people see things differently. Non believers also suffer such inconsistency in trying to offer an alternative explanation. One sees a big bang and another sees a black hole and yet another, a monkey that becomes Albert Einstine. It does not dismiss their claim that God does not exist. Agreement? Hell, the whole world once thought the world was flat.
The whole world might have once believed the world to be flat, but nobody ever believed that a monkey became Einstein! I know that you worded it like that because it makes evolution sound kind of stupid, but I think you really just don't understand how it works. I am really sick of people(religious people) saying things that imply that the rest of us are wrong because people couldn't evolve from monkeys! Nobody claimed we did! It doesn't work like that.
So if one doesn't believe in religion "the rest of us" must believe in evolution?
Evolution is a scientific fact. No one cares if you believe it or not. Your ridiculous beliefs are of no interest to anyone but yourself. It would cause a lot less fights if you stopped spreading the hatred - but it seems you just like to fight - like the bible tells you to.
Odd that you need to hide your identity to do it though. I see a lot of Christians feel the need to do that. Why is that?
I think you misread my post, I was asking The Demon Writer a question. If you don't understand something you should just ask.
Oh - I understood just fine. I did not realize you were not engaging the rest of us and only wanted that person to agree with you. I will be sure and ask you next time if it is OK that I try and educate you. It must be very frustrating for you to have several different peopel in the forum at the same time. I pity you, but forgive you any way.
How does asking a question imply agreeing with me? I don't really understand the rest of your post.
Of course you don't. That is why I pity you, but I still forgive you.
All this fuss over my post? I feel honored In answer to ediggity, by the 'rest of us', I meant all of the people who believe in evolution. Obviously. Sorry if I wasn't specific enough for your liking. It irritates me when people try to break down your arguments simple because you didn't word it 100% literally. Sorry for not assuming people are morons and that they could understand what I meant. I won't make that mistake again.
If by scientific fact you mean unquestionable dogma, you make your point clear with your "No one cares if you believe it or not."
Like arb says below, "Evolution is a viable explanation and worthy of discussion" if you insist a naturalistic worldview, but you do not live like you have a naturalistic worldview do you?
(PS you make clear your love for tolerance when you wax malicious on ediggity. Don't you think for a "good" atheist it would be bad to patronize another human being...)
contrary to your assumtion, I don't think evolution is stupid. My use of sarcasm and humor is not meant to offend but, to counter the privious sarcasm and humor. Lighten up a little. Evolution is a viable explanation and worthy of discusion. I think it has problems which are difficult to explain but so does creation. At times, I simply respond to absurdity with absurdity. It makes for creative discusion.
Demon, it is an unfortunate truth that this method debate is quite common in discussions of religion and/or evolution.
Lack of facts and truth forces the deist to spin, twist or simply falsify accepted facts into something that sounds impossible, stupid or just plain silly. It is done in an attempt to evoke an emotional response instead of a rational one as they themselves most commonly "reason" with that side of their brain and accept the answers that come forth as factual. If they want something to be so then it must be so. I have had the religious group insist the the "Origin of Species" states that man evolved from rocks (of course the book never even comes close to such a statement) and absolutely nothing can sway them. Unwilling to educate themselves about the subject they can only spout lies they have heard from others in attempts to make the idea ridiculous and therefore wrong.
It may be done from ignorance as few have taken the time to study and understand evolution (it might shake or destroy accepted beliefs) or it might be done simply as a last resort, but it is done more and more often.
Let them be or ignore them. You cannot educate the ignorant without their cooperation and they are not about to grant you that.
I have found that when discussing religion with people who refuse to believe in God I see the "Unanswered, or tough questions" they ask are synical, and counter productive. It is usually an accusation, or an atack, on somones "ridiculous" beliefs. hence you will never see a rational discussion between the two parties, especially on blog sights.
I know several atheists and most of them are decent people who I have conversations with on a daily basis, they are much more courtious when face to face.
Onusonous, I have observed the exact same thing. I can agree with your last sentence about the courtesy of atheists when face to face with them. Have a Happy and Safe New year.
Wow. I actually thought that the new built-in spell checkers worked pretty well.
If you ask me, there's ignorance on sides of the fence, as I have yet to see one person from either side concede or even at least show signs of actually trying to comprehend or read what the other person is trying to say; without resorting to petty tactics to make one argument more valid than the other.
In the end, everyone here is ignorant to listen to other person's argument. I know, I, myself have pointed out various observations in the past regarding religion and darwinism, but i was met with rude comments like "your confused" or I just don't know what I'm talking about. Which is funny because everything i ever mentioned in these forums were facts i learned from watching the science and discovery channels ALL THE TIME, and i merely quote what many reknown scientists say which is there's no definitive proof of a missing link between neanderthals and cromags. however, to each their own. to answer anyone's question...no i don't believe in creationism either, as i already said in another religious forum my own theory. If you want to know what that was, then you can look it up. However, I have yet to see either side accept or even be willing to hear the other person's point of view..UNLESS it's exactly the same as their own.
Both sides can preach all they want about how open minded they are and how narrow minded the other party is. however, as being a amateur film critic has taught me..you never ignore the obvious. Hence, from my observations, both sides are narrow minded and ignorant. period.
Yep ... very true.
I think that is the difference between debate and conversing.
In a civil conversation ... there is no debate.
In civil conversation .... no one tries to win, just exchanging ideas.
In debate people often just try to shout the other down.
Very true, Jerami-you've summed it up for us:-).
That is cute Jerami but perhaps a little etymology on you word converse would shed some light and keep you from making up definitions eh?
Perhaps that is because beliefs (of believers or non believers) are never absolute or definitive. What one sees as nonsense another may see as making sense. All beliefs are subject to change any time new experiences or new knowledge has been internally accepted. The "hard wired" beliefs tend to take a lot longer to change no matter the lessons that keep coming to the fore to show us otherwise. Experience more often than not however is the catalyst to changing ones beliefs.
It is rare beliefs can be changed merely by another stating their beliefs.
In discussions or debates, it always helps to keep an open mind and seek to understand one another's beliefs. It usually gives one more insight into the diversity of human nature.
Jomine - I'm pretty sure you can't prove that what they believe is not true, so how do you know it's not true? Because you don't believe it, that's how. Very simple. One person's truth is not always another person's truth, at least when it comes to philosophy.
"Truth" is the actual state of things.
The religious have taken a slide into the rabbit hole and reside in the land of the "Mad Hatter" and the "Cheshire Cat." I think Alice said: "It would be so nice if something made sense for a change." then the "Cat" said: "we're all mad here!"
That answers the forum question. :
Tell me qwark, how do you know what truth is? I said the same thing to beelzedad and I will now say it to you. You cannot make sense of reality without borrowing from the christian world-view.
C'mon, explain to me how you know truth. (please don't write a book.)
That is what you think and that is what you should make reasonable to the rest of us. Posting short replies and refusing to back up your claims won't really help the discussion.
Please explain to me, what exactly do you mean by 'borrowing from the Christian world-view'? Define the Christian world-view then tell me where Qwark was borrowing from it. Now tell me, how do you know the truth? And why should anybody believe it?
It is a transcendental argument and it's truth comes from the impossibility of the contrary.
Here, you say you reason pretty well, I say lest you have a Christian worldview you cannot account for your reasoning. Qwark just stated "truth is the actual state of things." He hopefully used reason to come to that stand.
If he used reason, I am curious on how he accounts for that reason? Is there a rationale? Well, I can sense one would appeal to experience, but then it is easy to see you would then use reason to make sense of that experience. Come and think of something else and I will tell you that you use reason to make sense of it and ultimately you appeal to reason to rationalize reason. Of course, unless you are willing to give heed to a circular argument, thereby letting Christians appeal to their bibles for truth, then you will show me you have no rationale for reason and there must appeal to some other worldview, one that has a reason to trust reason and experience, of which there is no other consistent worldview then Christianity.
However did people function before the birth of Christianity?!?!
I guess there must not have been good and decent people cause they couldn't makes sense of reality as the christian world view had yet to be invented, er, inspired by god
Oh what a world, what a world!
*sighs dramatically while placing outer hand to forehead feigning despair*
Oh the agony!
Qwark - I can agree that truth is the actual state of things. So if believers believe in whatever it is they believe, (or anyone else for that matter) than that is the actual state of their world as defined by their beliefs. Nez pas?
Beelzedad wrote ...
It's called religious indoctrination. It removes and destroys the ability to think, to use reason and rationale and the capacity for understanding.
= - = - = - =
I actually agree with this statement.
Religious indoctrination gets in the way of actually seeing and having a relationship with who the creator really is.
(Pretend for a moment) I (You) are on the beach , communicating with God.
I/You are on our knees with eyes closed praying to God (Higher power), And even though 0ur eyes are closed, We can feel it when someone comes up, stands between us and who we am talking to, We can feel the fact that something has happened.
We open our eyes, look up and now see a priest, ... standing between us and the object of my adoration.
He tells us that we should ask him to pray for us (instead of us)) That he is better suited for the job because he went to seminary school.
Not ... Not .... Not.
This explains perfectly why I can respect a religious person but cannot respect the religion. Middle men are always putting themselves in the middle for self serving reasons, even the middle men of God
Well, you see Jerami, that's the thing, I stopped pretending to talk to invisible friends long ago, it's called growing up.
Give it a try.
I guess you never had an invisible friend then because mine talks to me all the time. He tells me things to say to people and then i just have to watch the smiles stretch across their face. He leads me to still waters to drink in peace and causes me to rest in Him. He takes care of my worries and wonders and problems and solves them in so much better a way than i could and He does it so easily that all i have to do is talk to Him and ask whatsoever i will and He is on the job.
Its a shame that growing up has to suck so much for some people but then by their fruits we shall know them.. so many negative posts, so many short and uninspired sentances, and all this represents that you have grown up. congratulations i guess but i don't want what you have. It is so much less than what i have.
Do you know a 2yr old will laugh 150 times a day a 5yr old as much as 300! and adult unbeliever 15 a saved christian 50-100.
Nice management! lol
While I am quite happy you find solace chatting with your invisible friend who tells you what to say and what to do, I'm happier to tell you that scientists have discovered a number of mental disorders that support those symptoms.
I see you still seem to be spiteful and bitter with reality and having to grow up, that is the result of turning to the crutch of religion to mask the underlying problems rather than admitting and dealing with them.
It's all part of becoming an adult.
Thats rediculous. Are you saying that non believers do not laugh as often as believers? I dont know where you got that information, but its wrong.
Jerami/Beelzedad - Indoctrination does not preclude free thought and decision making. Many children who are indoctrinated grow up to question and make their own decisions. Those who join religion as adults are already thinking for themselves, making the decision to join. I'm not saying there aren't those who can be easily led, swayed, and convinced but those people probably weren't going to do any free thinking anyway. So religion does not necessarily force free thinking individuals to become Koolaid drinkers.
I agree with your post.
But it is so easy to go along with a belief system that seems to be the held by the majority.
Not realizing that the majority of that majority are doing the same thing.
I think that most NEW discoveries, and new truths are uncovered by what the majority considers to be a rebel, or misfit.
Sometimes all that it takes to turn a Bad idea and turn it into a good idea is to simply tweak it a little here and there; prest-o change-o, and the fog lifts, and we see clearly.
They only make their own decisions if they break the indoctrination.
No, they never made the decision to begin with, it was already made for them.
No, but it destroys their ability to think and reason about religion.
Yes. That was my point exactly. Not sure what you're referring to on the decision being made for them. The children? On your third point, still have to disagree. I can only speak from personal experience. Was raised Catholic, converted to Baptist. Never lost my childhood questioning about religion and the way of things. Now don't claim any religion and keep any open mind. But I agree with you that this is not the case for most followers.
What puzzles me is why people want to or try to alter other people's point of view. That is not a criticism it is just a statement, not wishing to join the debates because the whole concept of debates about such things is not in my nature.
You never try and alter people's point of view?
If someone is 'set in their ways' I believe to try to alter them is futile probably a waste of their time and mine.
I would tell someone why I feel the way I do about something but would not try to make them feel the same way, we each experience life from a different starting point.
This opinion may have been formed and be based on me listening to two people arguing politics and neither one changed the way the other voted.
I have wondered if someone is totally confident in their opinions why would they need to convince others that they are right?
However I also understand that it is given in some religions the need to spread the word and I have respect for this.
I was just curious about the reasons, not wishing to start or join a debate at the moment.
And I think I may have inadvertently added a post that is different to the OP question, apologise for that.
The whole idea of debate is to argue opposite sides of a subject. Obviously the forums are not real debate. But I've learned a lot in my lifetime from discussion, even straight out criticism from other people. Whether they were kind or unkind, over the years we can grab a snippet here and there and apply it to our now, using different aspects of other people's knowledge, information, and observations to grow ourselves. Often when someone makes an observation about us, it doesn't sink in until some time later, maybe years later. And sometimes, in discussion, a person will pick up one little thing the other has said and go "hmmm..." Whatever that means to them, they have applied something, opened up something, some new train of thought or interest even if it did not go in the direction the other intended. I believe self exploration, understanding of ourselves and others, and what makes each of us do what we do, is a wonderful and interesting part of being human.
Oh these discussions get so boring. No one ever can say anything that is going to change a believer into a non-believer and vice versa. Any change would only happen through a personal experience...not because it was beat in the head by someone. Sure the subject makes for good dialogue, but it really is the same responses over and over. Why can't we all just respect the fact that a person is free to believe what they want? People are entitled to personal choice.
Well-said, GoGranny! I think and have said the same thing-"Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs." I do not try to persuade anyone in my way of thinking and if anyone comes up to me and initiates a discussion (or here on hubpages), I try to answer their questions, but I do make clear that I do not intend to "convert" anyone to Christianity. Thanks for the very insightful post!:-)
That is wonderful. Let me know when the rest of you think the same way. When the churches and advertising hoardings and TV stations and "missionaries" are gone - we can stop asking you to keep your irrational beliefs to yourself.
I look forward to never seeing you tell anyone what you believe again.
Thanks - if more Xtians thought the way you did - the world would be a much better place.
I don't think I said anything about my beliefs. I simply just stated what I've learned re: "X" in Xmas meant. Anyhow, I'm not here to persuade anyone regarding my beliefs-thanks for noticing!:-)
Sorry you did not understand what I said. I think it is great that you are not interested in propagating your irrational beliefs and I think the world would be a better place if all the other Xtians thought the same way as you do.
Yes - I agree with you that most Christians do not understand the roots of their belief system and they are probably ignorant of the term "Xmas" as related to your particular cult. But - let's face it - X-tians have been fighting over stuff like this since the inception of this particular religion. It does cause a lot of fights, because it discourages active thought and any questioning of dogma or change in "accepted practice."is frowned upon.
Why believers believe in nonsense and argue that it is truth?
I think they believe its beyond the understandings of highly educated intellectual minds. Its something glorious & divine solely kept for the Dumbness itself
I've just been accused of lies and poppycock and called beelzubub on my hub about evolution of christianity - guess they didn't like hearing the truth
It happens when our facts do not support their conclusion.
Why believers believe in nonsense and argue that it is truth?
The same way as non-believers believe in nonsense and argue that it is truth.
The twain shall never meet. To each his own. Why argue? What will possibly be gained by the futile exercise? Why should one try to convince another either way? If you believe, you believe. If you don't , you don't.
Leave it at that and live in peace
I think such a phenomenon is vividly described by Quran in its following verses:
[109:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[109:2] Say, ‘O ye disbelievers!
[109:3] ‘I worship not that which you worship;
[109:4] ‘Nor worship you what I worship.
[109:5] ‘And I am not going to worship that which you worship;
[109:6] ‘Nor will you worship what I worship.
[109:7] ‘For you your religion, and for me my religion.’
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … php?ch=109
Let us only present our arguments with reasons and without derision and ridicule of the others.
Peace should prevail.
Everyone believes in their own truth, and they will staunchly defend their version of the truth. Perhaps we all need something to defend, as we often define ourselves by our beliefs.
Agreed! Our belief appear to be nonsense to unbelievers because they fail to realize that our faith is a spiritual connection with God. Those who accept Jesus become spiritual alive. If one is spiritually dead, they will not understand.
Which believers don't believe that non believers don't believe something, and so, therefore are believers too? Are you speaking of believers in long underwear? too much cheese on a pizza? You people ever watch stuff on the history channel? Discovery? All these reputable people seem to suggest that half the time you all are talkin' out your arses! Way more swirling around you. Take off your dark glasses and maybe you'd really see the light! Have a nice day. Love, Druid
" believers believe in nonsense and argue that it is truth?"
Of course they do. That is all that any of us can do, cause,
Nothing is as it appears to be.
So; one could say that it is ALL nonsense!
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