Christian Sunday School Bible Study

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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
Thursday, February 03, 2011

HubPages Christian Bible study for 2011.

This hub should be for the benefit of believers, which is to say
There will undoubtedly be nonbelievers looking to cause disruption As they have done so many times before. My recommendation is not to engage or argue with them here in this site.

This site should be purely for fellowship, spiritual collaboration and better biblical understanding.

This is your website, which is to say you determine how much it will benefits you individually, and/or collectively.

I have provided links to other biblical reference sites below:

Audio Bible [ Real Player ]
http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/bible.html

[ Another Bible Resource Website: ]
http://bibleresources.bible.com/keyword … results=10

To kick us off I started with Genesis chapters 1 and 2

The two chapters talk about the beginning of creation and life. Clearly the power of God is beyond human comprehension. Creating planets and lifeforms for earth. However even with these astonishing achievements God's hasn't as of yet demonstrated his crowning accomplishment, the formation of the first human man. God said the earth was covered with seeds and grass. God said to Adam he may eat of any tree in the garden except the tree of good and evil. The trees they ate from would be considered their meat.

Question:
Did God mean for man to only eat fruits and vegetables or did he feel that aninal meat should be included in our diet?

Genesis Chapter 1
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
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  qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sunday school for adults? Silly but NP.
  For kids? it's child abuse!
  Teaching myth as truth to kids is unforgivable!
  Qwark :
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So far we are simply diacussing what is written in a book.
  What we think in might mean by what it says and what it does not say.
  
  And you have a problem with that .. HOW or WHY ?
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just_curiousposted 13 years ago
Span star thank you. This sounds like a wonderful forum. I believe those chapters do show that we were originally intended to get sustenance from things grown in the earth, but the ejection from the Garden changed that. God Himself slaughtered the first animal to clothe Adam.
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  aguasilverposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ...and do not forget the blood aspect, once sin was in the world, we instantly needed blood to deal with things, dead animal = blood sacrifice, in this instance an animal dies to 'cover' our 'sin' from them on animals died to keep us alive.
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ediggityposted 13 years ago
Yes, I also think that originally we were suppose to only eat things of seed, which is still possible today. The chapter of Leviticus actually has a very biblical diet to follow.
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Paragliderposted 13 years ago
Except there were hunter/gatherers around way before we were reading and writing, i.e. pre-Bible. They weren't just gatherers. Many religions have advocated vegetarianism which they wouldn't have felt the need to do if humans hadn't been eating omnivorously before.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Hope this doesn't change the subject BUT
when I Started reading this chapter I noticed something that I had not noticed before.
1:20 God said, "let the waters bring forth abundently, the moving creatures that hath life; and foul that fly ...????

Does this say that the birds of the air and every other moving creature,except for mankind came forth OUT of the water; ?

IF I am reading this correctly?
Except for MAN this seems to agree with the evolution theory?
AND Just seems to me, that "The Sea" and "The Earth" also are representive of something other than what we would think?
Maybe the waters or sea represents the physical realm and the earth represents the spritual?

Hadn't finished this train of thought, but maybe when we began eating flesh this completed the marriage between spirit and the physical.
Could the forbiden fruit have actualy been animal flesh.

Or maybe I'm just wacked out this AM? If so?
My excuse is tht I am not fully awake yet.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  On the "water" thing....
  I believe "Let the waters bring forth the moving creature, ..etc." simply means let living creatures abound in the waters, not that the waters were a system of creating living creatures or any type of evolution aside from God's speaking things into existence. Sometimes we can read too much into, or project from, the simplicity of the Scriptures. But that's just my view of it Jerami.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  you're right. It is a very simplistic way to explain evolution. I'm surprised more people don't see the connection.
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
Just_Curiosity,

Thank you for your Accolate as to this hub page.

Since we are here to better understand the Bible perhaps there is someone here or someones who can further expound upon their point that the meat is an acceptable practice regarding human diet. As it has been my understanding that the shedding of blood was a practice for the atonement of Sin?

Frankly everyone has presented interesting and thought-provoking comments since this is your hub you are doing a good job.
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
Jerami,

If I am to address your question my perspective would be since God is creating everything than evolution is not what is taking place here.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not suggesting evolution of mankind.
  For God brought Man up out of the earth, what that means exactly; I do not know.
  
  It does seem that this is saying that all other life came up out of the water.
  What this means, I do not know.
  Just curious as to what others think about this?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  haha I replied to your other post while you were posting this.
  Same thing, I think.
  God prepared the earth and waters for living creatures, not living creatures for the earth and waters.
  
  I'll tell you why I think this is so. Genesis 1: 21 and 22 tells us that God created whales, etc., and verse 22 tells us he said they'll "fill the waters in the seas,"...
  
  He created them and placed them in the waters, or for placement in the waters, that He had already created.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes it is difficult to know how to understand scriptures when we take everything into consideration.
  How much importance to place upon a single word or the omission of a word?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  On the contrary, it's when we DO take everything into consideration that we gain understanding!
  There are whole cults and religions built upon one passage or one word that's focused on without taking the overall jist of the Bible into consideration.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes You are right, I meant to say "without" taking everything into consideration.
  But it is also difficult to understnd everything and not enter into circular logic.
  
  A couple of these keys are skipping and that is where the majority of my attention was focused.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed.
  And dontcha just hate computers and keyboards!? A necessary evil I guess. haha
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Great thread by the way
For the sake of keeping this thread going,and not get stuck or hijacked, I suggest SpanStar be allowed to mandate when it is time to move on to the next chapter.
That being said...

A while ago I was talking to a person that presented her arguement that when God killed the first animal and used its skins to cloth Adam and Eve, this was when Man became flesh, that before this we were simply spirit.
Made in the image of God.
When we were given the skins; this representes puting on flesh.

I never realy thought much about that.
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
Thank you Jerami,

For both your comments at to this website and the suggestion that I make determinations toward subject changes I really do appreciate still if someone else wishes to take on that task I'm in full support of that when means even if it's you Jerami.

Your comment about becoming flesh is indeed interesting, perhaps others have comments to your point I really can't find anything to say with respect to that idea so thanks for presenting it.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Hopefully it won't be necessry to mandate anything.
Treat it kinda like a real face to face discussion.
If I keep repeating myself; everyone should ignore me and move on.
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Paragliderposted 13 years ago
If the general consensus here is that there were not hunter/gatherers around long before the Bible was written, then there's little point in me offering anything further. SpanStar?
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It seems s though the greatest difficulty is mainting the 6000 year old history.
  
  Could the genertions of Adam be just that and no more.
  One particular family tree.
  
  And the six days of creation be just that with great spans of time between each day?
  The first day God did this long period o time passes ...
  ... ... ... and THEN .... the second day finaly arives.
  
  ... passage of time ... .. And then ...
  
  With a whole lot of stuff not being recorded?
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly. The writer was talking in very broad strokes. The term day is just poetic liberty.
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
Paraglider,

The point of view is certainly appreciated however the purpose of this page is for believers to converse with one another in an effort to better understand Scripture.

Thank you thank you for contributing
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  Paragliderposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  OK. I'll leave you to it. Though I think pursuing 'the meaning of scripture' may prove less fruitful than pursuing the nature of the Universe. Enjoy your thread
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just_curiousposted 13 years ago
Not to make anyone think I'm crazy, but if you notice Genesis 1: 28 tells man to be fruitful and multiply just before the sixth day ended. Genesis 2: 18 starts the explanation of how He worked his way from creating Adam to creating Eve. What I find interesting is that Adam was here before the Garden was planted. Definitely here sometime during the fifth day. He was here before the birds, by Genesis 2:19. I've always wondered if that doesn't mean that man and woman, as referenced in the first chapter, were formed and lived outside the Garden. I know Adam and Eve were the first, and we are all descended from Adam through Noah, but the text suggests to me they weren't the only. Like the Bible is the story of Man's relationship with God, more so than a history of humanity.

Am I totally insane, or has anyone else wondered about that discrepancy.
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  ediggityposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That could be possible. Maybe at the time of creation things/humans were formed, but not necessarily doing anything or living anywhere yet. Sort of like setting up the chess board before you play.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yeh, I guess. I know it sounds whacked and completely outside of teachings, but it goes a long way for me in explaining certain things that don't otherwise line up by the teachings.
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
=======================================
The next biblical subject I'm thinking we need to address is What kind of God are we talking about? Others believe that God is simply evil because of the things he's done and Exodus does show the power of God but is God really evil?

[ This question this is not going to be an easy passage ]

In order to save space I won't ask everyone to vote online line about this.

An alter subject I propose as a bibical topic: "What is a good sheperd?"

If one person suggest we go with "What is a good sheperd then that's what we will go with."\

The time limit for this choice will be 24 hours.
=======================================================
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You're a very smart guy. You must have some experience in these things. I'm curious to see what the posts are because, quite frankly, that isn't a question I've ever pondered and wouldn't really know where to start.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Tough topic, There are no short answers (I don't think); except "NO" he isn’t evil, or yes he is.

I could write an answer but it would be longer than any hub that I've written. And then it would cover too much to comprehend unless it was your theology already.

If a person truly believes in God and a life after death?

Death of a loved one would be something to celebrate, not a bad thing. Except for those that are left behind, They may feel cheated because they have lost someone, They will miss that time that they used to spend with that person.
The sadness would be that they didn't get to go too and most people wouldn't want to go either because they also would be leaving someone behind, etc., etc.
Therefore if God were credited for death, this wouldn’t be counted as evil.
Would it be counted as evil for you to be taken on an extended vacation to Jamaica but everyone else do not get to go; YET?
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just_curiousposted 13 years ago
Well ok, if we are discussing the nature of God (I'm slow on the uptake; when you said good shepard I thought it was a different topic) I don't see how God is considered evil by things that took place in the Old Testament. I think the whole point of detailing the extent of the violence was to show us man's nature is violent and sinful. With all the laws, with all the warnings, with all the divine interaction; man could not change his nature. God was simply giving man the God their world deserved. The scriptures are there for us to see that an event, on the scale of Christ's sacrifice, was the only logical step forward from that.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not sure if I stayed on topic or not? Tough topic.
  Was just answering as best as I could with what came to mind.
  
  And I agree with your comment. It seems as if Mankind kept getting more evil and rules had to keep being added.
  
  And the crucifixion for payment of debt was necessry for God to reconcile himself.
  I don't know? maybe ,,, something like that anyway.
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
Just_curious,
Thank you for the compliments regarding being smart but I am just a voice crying in the wilderness.

"The good Shepherd" is a new topic.

Make no mistake ascertaining whether God is good or bad in one's own mind will not be an easy task and we may walk away never having resolved that issue but by focusing on this idea as to, is God evil some of us may come away with a stronger conviction with seeing God for who he really is. Maybe having the capacity to express to doubters God is the wrong demon they have been focusing may also be a factor which comes out of this conversation.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "seeing God for who he really is".
  
  Ya hit the nail on the head!
  That is the thing that we will never know fully.
  In a round about way, He said as much when he said to not make any image of him or anything in heaven; I think, because we are sure to be wrong.
  
  The left hand never knows what the right hand is doing.
  As long as we have faith there is no personal need to know more than that, BUT, if we are to attempt to change anyone elses mind about this issue, we can not know enough about it.
  
  There are too many nonbelievers out there because we do not understand what we are talking about enough to "Know" ....
  far and above expressing our blind faith. Faith is enough or ME, but not enough for me to try to sell to another.
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just_curiousposted 13 years ago
Exactly. And I worry about the scripture that warns of the punishment for those that lead in the wrong direction. Who truly knows the right direction? Only someone who truly has a calling should knows when they should try.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  For all practical purposes; i don't think that anyone is suposed to try to convert another because scripture says that no noe should have pride in anything, even their faith in God cause God gives faith to those whom he wishes.
  
  In this, To try to tip the scales would be interearing with the plan o God. Which we can't really do! So why fight it.
  
  BUT ! We are not to hide our faith, cause God might be planing on using it for his purposes.
  
  Or something like that ! HA
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just_curiousposted 13 years ago
I like the way you post. It's a little freaky, you're saying exactly what I think. We need the rest of the gang here for opposing views.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I've thought the same thing a time or two.
  
  And yes and no. We need the rest for oposing views.
  
  We do not want to develope a mutual preciation club.
  
  That may be the biggest thing wrong with the world now?
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
It Doesn't look like anyone is moving away
from the main topic so I'll start early.
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WuldUStilRemebrMeposted 13 years ago
Where am I? I'm lost. Wrong page. heyyyyy! how's eve3ryone?! Long live rock and roll!
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
****************************************************
What is the Bible?
The word "Bible" refers to the canonical collections of sacred writings of Judaism and Christianity. Judaism's Bible is often referred to as the Tanakh or Hebrew Bible. The Christian Bible contains the same books of the Tanakh, which has been renamed as the Old Testament, and a collection of 27 books known as the New Testament.

http://bible9.com/
--------------------------------------

Is God just a tyrannical ruler who is cruel and unjust?

How will you answer a potential Believer when they ask
"Is God Responsible For So Much Violence In The Bible?"

Exodus
EXO 9: 14 For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth.

(Isaiah)
ISA 46: 9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Exodus points to an evil battle in Egypt as Moses faced off with Pharaoh.

[The following is my perspective with regards to this battle,] [so you are perfectly welcome [to dismiss it]

I am not saying that God was not involved however I believe the battle was not between God and Pharaoh. Moses was given godlike powers in his staff to do battle,essentially the battle was between Moses and Pharaoh.

Just look at that situation, people had been enslaved by other people for a number of years and during all these years they have called out to God. With Moses, God decided he would bring justice for those who have suffered for so long.

How about placing this in a human perspective. Let us say that your children boys and girls have been taken from you and they have been treated horribly with no hope of rescue. Suddenly you have the ability and the power to rescue the helpless would your
approach be much different than that which God asked Moses to do? If no then would that make you evil?

Some want to say that God created a devil. If the Chinese are in fact to create gun poweder then should they be blamed for those who took that gun power and put it guns or created bombs? Because of the violence from gun power as a result of their creation should they be considered evil?

****************************************************
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just_curiousposted 13 years ago
I think your example with gunpowder is dead on. Many people seem to deflect the blame. But I'm not sure I follow the Moses thing. Are you saying, in your opinion, Moses brought the plagues against Egypt? I'd have a hard time following that. I will certainly try.
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
Just_Curious,

As a soldier for God I feel Moses use the power in his staff to bring about these conditions like he parted the Red Sea.-(Yes in my opinion)
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Good morning folks!

I'm stuck on a couple of issues that haven't been addressed, that that I think should be considered before we proceed.
This may shed some light on the subject...
At least from my prospective.

Genesis 4:14, Cain was afraid and said "..., that everyone that findeth me shall slay me!" Who are these OTHER people?

If Adam and Eve represents a species of mankind that was created, there are many possibilities as to who these OTHER people are that Cain were afraid of. Those other people, when seeing Cane would immediately know that he was different???

I am lead to believe that much of the KILLING mentioned in the old testament was in fact the original act of ethnic cleansing of sorts. Lesser species were being eradicated , thus eliminating the competition for food and territory.

We might then ask ourselves; would doing that be an evil act?
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
Jerami,

I won't pretend to understand that passage of scripture so to rectify that in my mind I just say I don't know how much in life changed after Adam & Even sinned.

With regards to ethnic cleansing is an evil act. God was upset with (I believe it was Cain who killed Able).

Remember God said vengeance is mine.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I was kinda thinking that "Those Other people" were some type of prehistoric species of Humanoid.
  Cain would have been smarter than them. So he would probbaly have attained a position of leadership.
  
  Since God is all knowing, he would have known how Cain would feel when his offering was found unacceptable.
  For whatever reason Cain might have been lead into that situation of killing his brother ????
  
  Now we have the tribe of Adam through Seth, and the tribe through Cain. Two tribes.
  
  Then the sons of God are said to have taken all that they wanted of the daughters of mankind. (From both tribes?)
  
  Just because the tribe through Seth doesn't record survivers from the tribe of Cain, doesn't mean that there wasn't any.
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
Jerami,

Something just hit me, Cain & Able were adults or close to adult age and during that time period brothers and sister did have sexual relationships with each other so I'm wondering if family members moved away and did just that explaining the other people.

Just my prospective.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
SpanStar
You might be right.
Scripture doesn't mention how old Adam was when Cane and Able were born; but it does say in the generations of Adam, that Adam was 130 years when Seth was born.

Cane is said to be the oldest of Adams children.
If these other people were Canes brothers and sisters? It would seem that they would have been familiar with each other?

I have always assumed ( I know, not supposed to do that) that the mark of Cain was given to him to change his appearance, assisting him to fit in, in some way.
But we will never know.
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  SpanStarposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well Jerami,
  
  It sounds good to me maybe we can start another bible chapter call Jerami.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think anyone would be interested.
  
  Talk about boring
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You da man, Jerami!
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So, you guys really believe that the children of Adam and Eve married each other? I find that to be a difficult concept. I know it is what the church has taught, but it just sounds odd to me. I realize my take on the whole thing is crazy, but I feel there has to be a different answer.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That isn't what I was suggesting at all.
  
  "Those other people that Cain were afraid of, I do not think were related to him at all.
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just_curiousposted 13 years ago
Oh good. Thank goodness. That idea is really one of my least favorite that people say.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  As I said in an earlier post. Cain was “Skeard” that them other people were goina kill him?
  
  I don't think they were family at all, or they would have been familiar with each other. Had these "other" people been Cain’s siblings, they would be younger than Cain, and their children would not have been old enough to be skeard of.
  
  I think Cain "married" (if ya want to call it that) into a clan of less sophisticated peoples.
  
  BUT ? I know nuthing! I just thing it!
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
As Jerami has said "we may never know" still the reality is royalty during that time did marriage each other to keep control in the family.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
I didn't intend to siderail the thread.

Just wanted to explore this aspect before discussing the evilness of God for killing so many people.

There might have been good reason for an ethnic clensing type of thing.
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
Jerami,

God is always right and I can remember one battle where God told his people to kill everyone because he knew that if any remained living the would corrupt his people and his people did not kill everyone like the women, God was right, they did corrupt them after a period of time.

Could this be what you mean regarding a good reason for ethnic cleansing?
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh. There you are. This type of behavior was typical for man at that time. Was it not? Killing all the people in lands conquered.
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  SpanStarposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Just_Curious,
  
  I believe you're right. The didn't value life much back then.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I just always felt that there were reasons for much of this that the people didn't know, or was just so obvious that they didn't feel that that needed to be explained.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm a little dense. Could you expand on that?
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No you aren't dense, I'm still stuck back in past comments,
  
  Killing everyone in the cown being conquored.
  In one instance every living thing was supposed to have been killed, even the little lambs, and ducklings.
  Nothing was supposed to be taken, and resettlement of the town didn't happen.
  
  Sounded to me that the town was contaminated in some way that the conquering forses might not even hve been aware of.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Reasonable theory. Some of the original laws were given simply to help them avoid things they couldn't understand were unhealthy.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I have wondered how many interesting facts were inadvertantly left out of the origional documents when Ezra reintroduced it to the Hebrew peoples round 450 BC.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Never even crossed my mind to wonder. Very interesting.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Door bell went off ... gotta go. just when it was getting good too. darn.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  In other words, your god demanded to have killed anyone who didn't share the same beliefs.
  
  Oh yes, I can see how that would be the right thing to do according to your god, of course.
  
  Excuse me, but I have to go vomit now.
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just_curiousposted 13 years ago
I guess, maybe. It would be a difficult thing to try to come to terms with.

Actually, to be honest I have to admit such a concept would be impossible to come to terms with. But, if it were true; the truth would have to set me free.

I guess this discussion will be interesting. Where is everybody?
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
Just_curious,

If we think about it, it sort of happens today in that the rich people don't usually pick common people to marry, but they pick people in their income bracket and though it's not close relatives one can see how this process could work in the pass.

Am I mistaken in thinking that King Herod kill John the Baptist if his step-daughter danced for him?
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Stepdaughter, evil king, decadent society. Yes, I remember the story.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The king didn't wanto kill John.
  
  He didn't know what the little girl was going to ask or.
  Harod was a dirty old man that wanted to see the sexy little girl dnce.
  
  He probably thought she was going to ask for a poney or something similar.
  
  But Moma got what she wanted.
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just_curiousposted 13 years ago
Yes. They said Herod was sorry he had made the pledge once she said what she wanted.
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
Evil was wide spreaded during that time because wasn't King Herod that put all those babies to death thinking he would kill Jesus as a baby?

How does one answer for that when they stand before God?
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think there would be anything to say. Especially since he purposely did it to stop a prophesy from coming true.
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
Just_Curious,

I don't people today pay attention to the evils we as people do but yet we stand in judgement of God as if we are some how better then God himself.
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just_curiousposted 13 years ago
I suppose, in some ways that could be seen as true.I don't think I agree with it completely.

There are things we don't understand, and we work toward that. I do believe that God expects that. I don't see myself as judging God, simply searching for truth.
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
I'm not saying everyone feels that way but far to many do.

Passage Luke 16:15:

15And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with that completely. It is why Jesus didn't preach to change the world, just to change the heart. Once that happens the world changes.
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
I agree with you comments Just_Curious,

We need more people to understand your idea and remarks.
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  SpanStarposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well I think there's a long distance phone call I'm going to make so all take care
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just_curiousposted 13 years ago
That will be difficult in the society we have created. It seems to all be about self, but on the most superficial level. Everyone seems to be looking at everyone else for guidance and approval. No time spent on introspection.
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  SpanStarposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Just_Curious,
  
  There is scripture to backup your words:
  
  2 Timothy iii. 1-7.-"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, truce-breakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, high-minded, lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God;
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
I think it would be a good idea if someone else when the time is right present a topic they feel might benefit themselve or the group.

Spanstar
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This popped into my head as I was attempting to go back to sleep.
  The spirit of God moved upon the waters (Gen 1:2)
  Was this the same as The Holy spirit?
  God said (The word of God/Jesus) "let there be light and there was light."
  
  SO, the holy spirit and Jesus was present with God from the foundation of the earth.
  Maybe?
  
  OK, here is the question. The two witnesses which stood before the throne of God, (Rev. 11:3) also in Isaiah also described as the two Mertyl trees/candlesticks.
  
  There has been much debate as to who these two witnesses are?
  
  It has been taught that these two witnesses must be two of Gods prophets, Why is this?
  
  Could these two witnesses be the "Word of God" and the "Holy spirit"?
  
  Just a crazy thought, but why do they have to be people.
  Jesus said that God and himself are witnesses unto each other, did he not?
  These two have witnessed everything that God has done since the beginning of the world.
  
  Who would be a better witness unto God?
  
  What are your thoughts.
  For me, I'm back to bed for a little while.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think your post is very profound. Definitely sounds close to a mark that could firmly be argued..
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I did post this as a question because I am not firmly committed to that theory.
  I am just curious as to what others thought?
  
  I wouldn't debate the matter though I might discuss my reasons for thinking this as a posability.
  
  But now I have to go to the store then go do an estimate for some work; and I need it.
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  SpanStarposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It could be, like I said I'm not certain about everything in the bible and I doubt I'll evern be able to grasp all the concepts of the bible.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I am not certain of very much either. I do hold some strong beliefs and also some strong doubts concerning other things.
  
  It is difficult dividing those things that are written in scripture and SOME of those things taught by the church.
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  SpanStarposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  True,
  
  We have to guard against being sucked in by the ideas of men because they can be mislead as well.
  
  If we strength our faith in God I find he will at times allow us to see clearly that which others can't even understand.
  
  We talk about serving God but it seem to come just from the lips for a lot of people because are is looking for us to serve and most of us are about telling other people what they should be doing, telling everyone all the things we've done. The idea of serving seems to be for people who don't know how important ( I am ). We like to stand in judgement of others but we don't want to do anything about the situation. We measure success by how much stuff we've acquired.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree, but I have a difficult time understanding how to 'serve' God. I stay away from organized religion so it is impossible to work for Him within a group. I am not called to teach the Word. I try to help others when I see a need and I don't think I've ever passed a homeless person without finding something to give them, but I honestly have never felt I do enough for my fellow man. It bothers me on many levels.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I kinda see organized religion as the bedding soil for the seeds of thought (in faith) to be germinated.
  I once thought that we were then supposed to pass through this phase. To go on and have our own personal faith by ourselves but that is not correct either.
  
  Some of us must (I didn't) remain behind so-to-speak.
  Somebody has got to in order to ensure that those seedlings mature properly. Somebody has got to keep the moles and insects away. When no one that knows better stays, false indoctrins, and interpretations creep in and imbed themselves.
  
  Maybe this has been the problen all long?
  Too many believers out grow the church in our faith.
  When we find the church in disgreement with our ideals, we leave instead of adressing the broblems.
  
  BUT; in defense of ourselves; Most churches will not enter into open debate concerning doctrines. Or closed debate for that matter.
  
  BUT; I quess that this was Gods plan
  
  In answer to How we serve GOD? I think that when we survive. doing our earthly duties, (Occupation) having a loving, happy spirit, we are serving God.
  Such as the farmer. Doing his Job, feeding the world.
  We all do that in our own little way.
  And let the light shine.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, that's beautiful. I'll see if I can adopt that philosophy.
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
Life Is More Then Just Now

by Spanstar

Some people ask How can this be
Planets and stars beyond what anyone can see.
Look at how the universe cares for itself.
"Man not require" we've been doing this since birth.
How does a seed know to reach for the sun?
Who thought to make gravity a protector of Earth as insulation?
Bodies that heal themselves, that's intelligences affirmation.
Living on this planet, what does that mean
If the only reason for living is for selfish things.
Billions of possible people will never experience life
Still we moan and groan from silly dislikes.
I am lucky and so are you
We've experience life even if for some just a moment or two.
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
Just_Curious,

A number of us have a similar problem when trying to understand what is the appropriate steps to take in an effort to follow God. I believe if we make the effort with our heart to do that which is pleasing to God he will look upon us favorably.

Jerami,

You have made a lot of good points and I will simply add to those. The church is a seeding ground or should be, unfortunately I believe there have been some churches which have fallen down regarding that responsibility. If we would step back and look at many of the churches today in many respects we cannot tell how they differs much from the world.

I find it ironic that Scripture teaching in the church is exemplary but what is supposed to be a positive experience results in people talking behind your back at the church, if church programs are created the emphasis is on the program rather than the message of Jesus. Money is always the priority in the world and in the church mostly.

Hopefully those of us who left the church have made more of an effort to better understand Scripture and strengthen our relationship with God.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Your comment about those who have left the church struck a chord. I don't think I ever really read or studied the Bible at all in the church. I've learned everything I know and believe about faith in my adult life.
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  SpanStarposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Personally Just_Curious,
  
  I feel one can't find a better pupil then one who takes the time learn on their own, good for you.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I hear YA !~
  Everything that I have learned was in the still of the night.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  All I wanta say right now to this is that I feel YA I think?
  
  MAYBE ? ? ? ... all that is wrong with the organized ... Church ... is that enough of us havn't gone back and had ourselves heard ??? maybe?
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not to sound pessimistic, but it would be too little too late in my opinion. If the stage was set today I think they would be the ones to crucify Christ. I don't mean to sound unkind, but power corrupts and has eroded most of the message away within the church.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  YEA I was just feeling routy for a moment.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I would laugh, but it really makes me sad that I feel that way.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  BE HAPPY ..... That is the way I was thinking it !
  
  Feel My smile ?
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes. Thanks. I believe I needed that.
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
Jerami,

I feel your pain and I understand what you're saying with hopes of changing things and perhaps making better.

Just_Curious,

There is much truth in what you had to say, at this stage of the game will anyone really hear us? If those who believe they are true followers of Word who do we think we are to say what they're doing is wrong?

It is true it's sad because we could be better people but our faith isn't what it use to be.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You're right. I blame the leaders, more than those who follow; but sometimes I wonder why people don't think. I've had friends who find a new church, come to me and gush about something their minister said about scripture, but when I ask them what they think all I get is a blank stare. Many of them have never even read the Bible.
  
  I don't understand their faith, but then I think maybe theirs is stronger than mine, since I'm always searching.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Wery true ! Is anything what it should be it it is still what it used to be ?
  
  I'm reading your mind now !
  
  NO
  
  Did I guess right ?
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well that's just freaky. How'd you do that?
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Magic !,:?
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
i am feeling out side of mysel tonight ........ and ....
Sometimes it is good to share . ? ? ? ? !!
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
The Christain walk is not an easy one.

Funny when I was younger I thought those weak Christian won't even fight back But brother not fighting back when you have every reason to is a very hard thing for me, and has always been. Still the power of understanding it is better not to act like the world may have saved me from leaving this world too soon.

How powerful the bible is in that if some one with lettle education can read the bible and understand great wisdom but give it to a highly intelligent person and they can't make sense of it.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Now that is a lot of truth !!!!!!!!!
  
  It is too easy to out smart outself if we ain't paying attention.
  
  And sometimes even then.
  
  That brings to mind !
  
  The easiest thing in the world to do ? ? ?
  
  Out smart ourselves ? ?
  
  I think so!
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  SpanStarposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Jerami,
  
  Out smarting ourselves these days seems to be something we do alot. It's is so hard to for people to think their could be another solution to a situation if it's not their situation.
  
  The bible was so right about the people we would become in the future.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  One of these days when I get to know YA better; I Could Tell Ya a story that ...? ...
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just_curiousposted 13 years ago
I don't know that I would agree entirely. College indoctrinated us in disbelief, and a lot of people seem to equate faith with ignorance. I think it may be easier for people with little to find comfort in the scriptures.

Our society is structured so that when you have money you have diversion from introspection. Many just don't see the need anymore. I think their souls are sleeping.
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
Just_Curious,

I understand what you're saying but God can open the eyes of those who we would consider less education to draw wisdom from the bible wheres those who don't believe in the bible can read it and find only nonsense as we can see from the statements on this website the some nonbelievers make and many I consider are fairly well educated.

A person can be experiencing a problem and go to the bible for help. A passage they've read several times in the past now suddenly comes to life with what they were looking for.

This is the point I'm trying to make.
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just_curiousposted 13 years ago
Yes, I see that. But some talk as if people like that are spiritually dead. it's a term I'm very uncomfortable with. Do you believe there is such a person?
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