Exodus

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   fadedsnowposted 13 years ago

   In Exodus God slays all the 1st born of Egypt because the Pharaoh will not bow down to Gods demands. With that said, why were the 1st born punished for the Pharaoh’s rejection to God’s plea? On another note the Pharaoh of Egypt should have been a 1st born himself, why was he not slain?

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      DoubleScorpionposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Not that I agree with this in anyway. The slaying of the First born(the most treasured items of a man) and included all first borns,animals included, was symbolic of the removal of the birthright/inheritance. Later on you will read that God required all first born/first fruits for sacrifice. He took the Levites as his in place of the first borns of Isreal. Leaving the Levites without a inheritance. The Isrealites were to provide for the Levites because of this.
      
      This is found in the first couple of chapters of the book of Numbers

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      Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      
      
      Wasn't it such that the father of the first born had to be alive in order for the curse to work? The Pharaoh's father was supposedly dead by this time, imsc.

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         fadedsnowposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Again guys the bible states all 1st born. But the bible doesn't state who the Pharaoh was. So he could have been the 2nd born if his older sibling had pasted before his time.

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      Dave Mathewsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      fadedsnow: It was not just for the rejection of God's plea that the first born of Egypt were struck down. The Pharaoh himself,by his own mouth, spoke the tenth plague when he the pharaoh ordered the "First born" of all Israel to be killed by his soldiers. God then reversed the order of Pharoah through His Godly power and had all of the first born of Egypt killed.
      
      Ramases the Pharaoh was the first born but he was spared by God so that he could witness what his own words had done to his people.

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         fadedsnowposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Are you trying to justify the slaughter of the 1st born? Nowhere in Exodus does it state that God spared the Pharaoh to witness the destruction.  It states clearly that all the 1st born will perish including animals.

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   Joy56posted 13 years ago

   was it just first born babies?????

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      fadedsnowposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      That's correct!

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         Dave Mathewsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Fadedsnow: You are purposely misleading others with lies. God does not like lies.

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      Dave Mathewsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      No it was first born period not just babies, but adults too also the first born of the livestock.

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         fadedsnowposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         No sir, i misread her post.

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   just_curiousposted 13 years ago

   Maybe it was  part of the story simply to show that the finger of  God could pick and choose. Weren't all the other plagues basically attributable to natural causes? Then here comes one that only kills first born male children. Even a man who saw himself as a god couldn't argue the improbability of that one.
   
   And I think Joy is right. Just kids. That  old Charlton Heston movie probably took artistic liberties when it showed that guy dying on the terrace.

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      fadedsnowposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      29And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
      
      
      The bible states all first born.

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   paarsurreyposted 13 years ago

   Exodus
   
   
   Who wrote it? It was not written by Moses.

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      fadedsnowposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      We don't know who wrote any of the tales in the bible.

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         paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         But Moses was a real person and a selfless person chosen by the Creator-God to lead the human beings on good ethics , good morals and good spirituality . The account of Bible gives a blurred picture of Moses' character; that is why his life account; and truthful one is mentioned again in the Word revealed by the Creator-God; with necessary corrections.
         
         One may read it in Quran.
         
         Moses should not be forgotten.

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            Dave Mathewsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            The Holy Bible gives a "First hand acounting" of Moses and the events, as it is written by those who were there. The Quran give a second or third hand accounting, not to be trusted or believed.

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            Merlin Fraserposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Not convinced that Moses was real... Nor for that matter that anything in Exodus is anything other than a story and not a very accurate one at that.
            
            Everywhere Moses supposedly led the people was into another place that was already occupied by Egypt.. so how was this an escape ?

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               paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               I don't think it is essential that everybody should get convinced. That would be compulsion, not free will?
               
               You shall have to express your difference with reasonable and brilliant arguments.

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               Dave Mathewsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Merlin Fraser: You are trying hard to plant seeds of doubt into the truth, something that the "False Prophet of the Anti-Christ will try, but like him, you cannot secceed against the truth.

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                  livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Fortunately, in Judaism, it's not sacrilegious to wrestle with scripture (or to even disbelieve in it).
                  
                  According to a review of the historical evidence, it seems either the Exodus didn't occur, or else it only affected a very small group of escaped slaves that might have brought their story to the inhabitants of Judea. There is almost nothing in Egyptian records saying anything about a group of escaped slaves, much less any of the supposed 10 plagues that come with the legend. And as much as we'd like to take credit for the building of the pyramids, we probably didn't have much to do with that, either.
                  
                  For most Jews, the historical veracity of these sorts of things doesn't challenge what we're able to draw on in the modern day (i.e. that slavery is horrible, that everyone is entitled to a respite from work, etc.).

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                     Dave Mathewsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     livelonger: It is a sacrilege to try and distort the writings of the "Torah" which is where the account of the Exodus is recorded. It is reported in History that 80,000. Hebrews fled Egypt inot the desert with Moses as their leader. Only a Nazi would be trying to spread the falsehoods you are trying to spread by trying to dispell the truth.

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                        livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        I'm not disputing that the Torah talks about the Exodus under Moses. What I'm saying is that the historical record leans towards this being a legend as opposed to historical fact.
                        
                        And, sorry, I'm not a Nazi, and neither are the majority of Jews who are able and willing to reconcile our beliefs with the historical record. It's pretty shameful of you to suggest that. If you were a bit more secure in your beliefs, you wouldn't have to resort to insults against people who believe differently from you.

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                           Dave Mathewsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           When one attacks the authenticity of such Historic Holy Books of God as the Torah or The Holy Bible, one not only attacks me personally for I am a Christian Believer, one also attacks God Himself and His Holy Word. I will not abide this. You claim you are not a Nazi, so be it, but do not lump yourself in with the Jewish people who have sacrificed so much to protect their religion and their beliefs. A devout Jew would never attack the Torah, He might deny Jesus as the Messiah, but he would never attack the book of God.

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                              livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              You consider questioning and skepticism as an attack. That's a classically fundamentalist Christian way of interpreting it. It's not a Jewish one. You obviously know very little about Judaism.
                              
                              Do me a favor and don't address me again. Like most fundamentalists, you can't bear to have a civil discussion on religion.

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                              Merlin Fraserposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              I am neither Jewish nor a Nazi and I do not as you put it attack the Torah, Bible or the Quran but as a student of history I challenge the authenticity of any book that offers no substantiated historical facts nor can be cross referenced to any other historical records of account for the period in question.
                              
                              Personally I could care less what you chose to believe, however I do wish you would stop these ridiculous and unsubstantiated claims that these Holy Books, as you call them, are in any way written by anything other than the hand of man.  Any claim to be the words of some unknown supreme being is nonsense given that any facts that are present in these books show only a level of education and scientific understanding no greater than that of humans for that time period.
                              
                              Surely if it was actually the words of an all seeing all knowing God he might have made more of an effort to get the science bits right don’t you think ?   
                              
                              Check out my previous response, the subject under discussion was the Exodus, anyone with a reasonable grasp on reality will acknowledge that it did not happen ! 
                              
                              It’s a nice story but that’s all it ever was, however the significance of the fact that it didn’t happen goes a lot further than just debunking the story of the Exodus, it calls into question everything that supposedly happened as a consequence of that event.
                              
                              If that rattles the ground beneath your faith and beliefs I’m sorry, however that changes nothing;  the truth will out in spite of all the denials, name calling and bouncing up and down in red faced intolerance.  If you must get mad at someone go take it out on the priests who have been spoon feeding you all these lies for so long even they think it’s true !

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                  Merlin Fraserposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  This is probably a complete waste of time since there are those here that wouldn’t recognise the truth if it jumped up and bit them on the ass however, once more from the top.
                  
                  The story of the Exodus appears only in the Old Testament, there is no corroborating stories or evidence from any of the other leading civilizations in the region, including the Egyptians themselves whose entire economy was based upon the use of slavery.  If as the Exodus claims a large percentage of the slave population just up and left then there would have been quite a crisis of confidence in the land and such an event would have been recorded.
                  
                  Outside the Holy texts based upon the Old Testament;  No record of any such event exists !
                  
                  However, just for amusement let’s assume it happened as the Bible says it did.   Where did Moses lead the children of Israel after they crossed the Red Sea ?   Into the Sinai desert where they wandered around for forty odd years.... and nobody noticed ?   Who owned the Sinai at the time  ?  Want a clue ?   It begins with  E and ends with T. 
                  
                  What happened after the forty years, Oh Yes... they moved on to the land their God had promised them.... Canaan.... Doesn’t seem to matter or get a mention that the land was already occupied by the Canaanites and under the control of a foreign power.   Which power you ask ?   Shucks guys it was those pesky Egyptians again.... They seem to get everywhere don’t they ?
                  
                  By Egyptian law in the province Canaan any nomadic groups had to register with the local Governor, however the fact that there is no record of any such enormous group arriving or even being noticed seems a little strange don’t you think ?
                  
                  How about the lad Moses himself ?   Considering what a pain in the ass he must have been to the Egyptian authorities surely that alone would have got him a mention in the record books... how about  a warrant for his immediate arrest or something ?  Nope not a Historic mention of him anywhere... Save One that is !
                  
                  Of course, all this begs one mighty question.....  If there was No Moses, and it seems there wasn’t, then there was no Exodus!  No wandering lost in the Sinai all those years... No one to go up Mount Sinai.... No Ten Commandments and No Promised Land !   
                  
                  All one big giant Myth... Camp fire stories possibly put together by the slaves themselves to give them hope for the future.... any future other than the one they had.
                  
                  I am truly sorry if actual historical and archeological fact fails to convince you that the holy books you speak of are not in themselves historical or factual in any way, I’m sorry too that you cannot or will not accept the evidence that is all around you.
                  
                  I didn’t put that evidence there, nor did I make it up... It’s historical fact nothing more and nothing less.
                  
                  
                    So please lay off on the False Prophet or  Anti-Christ and one more accusation of Nazi on this thread I will have you removed.
                  
                  If you cannot debate or discuss these things in a civilised manner without insult then leave it to those of us who can.

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                     paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     History does not accurately record all the events occuring in this world. Does it?

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                        Merlin Fraserposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        True....
                        
                        However my point was that the bible doesn't accurately record ANY historical fact !

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                           paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           Maybe it is a failure of the history also; is it possible?

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                              Merlin Fraserposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              Now you are clutching at straws !
                              
                              No historical or archeological study relies on just one source of information before offering up the facts.
                              
                              
                              However you may have noticed that those that shout loudest about the stories contained in the Bible as being factual are the same ones who refuse to seek any corobarating evidence from sources other than their own.
                              
                              
                              I love History and have tried to trace some things back to a point in time way beyond the era in which your mind is stuck.
                              
                              I accept that what was happening in that region of the world was an important milestone in our history but that's all it was.

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                     fadedsnowposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Well said!

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               earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               I agree Merlin.

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            fadedsnowposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Sorry there isn't any evidence to proave that mosses was a real person.

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   Beelzedadposted 13 years ago

   Interesting article, the evidence would show that the first born of Rameses II; 'Amun-her-khepeshef' died of a blow to the head most likely from a stone mace, a common weapon of the time.
   
   "The vast tomb of Rameses II, the pharaoh of the biblical Exodus, was recently unearthed. Within it was buried his eldest son, who apparently met an untimely end."
   
   http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_a … 081817.ece

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      fadedsnowposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Curious to know where you have identified Rameses as the Pharaoh? The bible makes no claim to his name nor and exact date.

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         Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Did you read the article?

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