Before you post a response...Please use various sources to look up the actual definition of what freewill is. After you see the different definitions and then determine what it actually means to you; Do you, in all honesty, feel that humans truly have freewill as currently described by many "abrahamic" religions?
I am not interested in biblical quotes..I can read those for myself. I want to know your honest opinion based from the accepted definition of the word/phrase and what you currently accept as personal knowledge of spiritual beliefs.
And I know it might be hard, but, it would be nice to not disagree with anyones opinion. This should allow for a interesting look into how "the person" responds to or sees an "accepted" fact of a chosen word.
I think you should give the definition you subscribe to as there is no standard definition of free will.
If I give my personal interpretation of the definitions for Freewill, it defeats the purpose of what I am looking for in this thread.
Freewill depends on us making informed choices. We don`t oftenhave the depth of information in order to do that effectively. So we exercise in the info we do have or spend an eternity in research and die before that decision gets made - If God gives us freewill, he`ll also give us all the information necessary or else we`re acting foolishly. Not too bad for 10am, eh?
From what little I've read on the subject it seems that the human brain decides what it wants to do quite a bit before the mind becomes consciously aware. So my thoughts are that our impulses are not under our control but we can veto those impulses, urges and actions with the higher brain function.
Here's a great lecture I saw on the subject recently:
I do not believe that we have "Free Will" to do anything, but what I do believe is that we have "Free Choice" we are free to choose as we see fit.
Hey Dave, what did your "Will" cost?
The word "Will" is just a descriptive word for Human Drive to Exist.
It costs nothing, because it comes with being born. Granted, after being born, much assistance is required for the existence of the one born, but that's something entirely different and off topic.
The Human Will is free. To do what you "Will", require consciousness, which brings on awareness of the world and grants the ability to step back, look at a particular situation and access a path forward(action).
Nothing is pre-destined or predetermined.
Well, as you and I think along the same lines with alot of things. I understand what you are saying completely. Thanks for the post.
Lets not go outside the box with "Free Will" neither I nor anyone I know can freely "will" something into happening or being only God can do this.
I am inclined to agree. Thanks for the post.
Hey Paar, are you saying that you don't have a "Will", which you control, that helps you live?
Yes , I do have but I should not do what is ethically, morally and spiritually harmful to the fellow human beings or to the country I live in; or which angers my Creator-God Allah YHWH; I agreed in this sense. Please note accordingly.
Discussing the concept of free will involves a number of options from Compatibilism, Determinism, Libertarianism, with subcategories of causal, logical and theological. If talking about quantum field theory, for example, free will is meaningless as it involves probabilities over choices.
So, in answering the OP, we are looking at a sub-category of free will, that of theological free will, which is clearly a contradiction if our actions are already predetermined by gods as decreed by those particular religions, especially the Abrahamic.
gets the popcorn ready...grabs a seat, puts up his feet and kicks back to watch the show
If there is a God and he has a divine plan for us all then no, I don't think that we would have free will. If God can see the future and determine what is gonna happen then how can one have free will? If God knows what I'm gonna choose before I was even born then how could any of my actions be of my own freewill?
Did you asked the question because of your free will or did God ordained you to come and ask it?
The answer would depend on your take on the 'abrahamic religion'. If you believe God knew it all from beginning to end because he manipulates events to make it end a certain way then no, there is no free will possible by your definition of it. I never saw it that way, so I always assumed free will was a fact.
So far, I see, if god has a divine plan, then we cannot have freewill. But, if we truly have freewill, then god cannot be all knowing (one cannot be "all knowing" with unknown variables).
"Abrahamic Religions are, in this case, Jewish, Christian, Muslims and the various branches involved"
Without reading the definitions, and I've seen a few in the past. I'd say that a more accurate definition of what we "have" is not free will, as like choose ANYTHING, but rather that we do have a choice.
In it's simplest form, to have the "freedom" to choose between God AND something other that Him.
And, we DO have that. What more is needed?
Free will is two words.
Secondly, obviously if you have the will to question God, something no hardcore heaven bound Monotheist ever wants to do, than you have free will.
I do, however, subscribe to the idea of a destiny. A think we can choose to accept or deny, but that we can't avoid.
A little girl born on 9/11 wants to change the world. Unfortunately she gets shot by another guy with free will. But she does influence millions.
(Sorry, borrowing my philosophy from The Men who Stare At Goats, but damn, that was a good movie.)
I know you posted that it was not possible to have free will within the confines of the teachings of the three monotheistic religions. That isn't quite right. I believed in it. It's a simple question of how choice works, how you think time works and what you consider the abilities and intent of the divine. There's a myriad of options for every action condidered. Even an action as simple as breathing offers a great number of choices, once you've decided yes or no. Every action you take turns you, to a tiny degree, down a different path. Where you ultimately end up is decided by a host of decisions. Not simply one. I always assumed that even if somehow god was manipulating events to turn them to end a certain way it was of no more consequence than a butterfly effect; so it could still be done in such a way as to not determine the direction of anyone's life to such a degree as to ensure they ended up without free will, for the most part.
Question. If you make a choice, you assume to have freewill. what if you made a "choice" but it was made because you was predestined to make that "choice" is that still freewill?
Question. Is freewill limited by the negative or positive impacts that result from a choice made?
I don't have a hang up. I am simply asking questions. I already have my thoughts and opinions on the subject, I am simply asking for yours is all.
Then why is your "free will" pointing us in the direction of predestination, by your own hand?
I asked a "what if" question. It is your assumption that is leading you.
And my Original questions is "Do you, in all honesty, feel that humans truly have freewill as currently described by many "abrahamic" religions?" This is a simple "yes or no" with the option of support for your opinion.
I gave you mine.
It is not a simple yes and no question.
If you say it is, then, I don't see it.
Maybe you should read it again.
I read your thoughts.
And the question is an easy "yes or no" in my opinion.
My answer is : No. (I opt to write my supporting reasons) Why? based off of the definition of the phrase "freewill"
1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
It is my opinion that once you apply reward or punishment (constrainment of an external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will (religion)) you no longer have freewill. So, according to the Abrahamic Religions, the answer must be "no" by definition of the phrase and the doctrine of the religions.
If that's the final answer, then it closes all discussion.
I still refer to predestination, because you seem to hold the view that we have a predetermined outcome, therefore our choices don't matter.
The issue I have with this is, that it's one thing to "see" the end from the beginning, and "manipulate" the outcome, or control the fate of..
God KNOWS how it will end, and so tells us. (free will)
God manipulates everything to get the desired outcome. (no free will)
Ultimately, it's His creation, and whether its one or the other, debating it will not change the outcome, since it is already factored in. The choice is ours to make, what we do with our lives.
Like an atheist has no future hope beyond death. Should they commit suicide if life is too hard? There's no meaning to life either way. Life, death, it's all the same.
I simply gave my opinion for my own question. What part of, I am interested in other peoples opinions, do you not understand? I am not trying to debate anything...I am just looking for opinions for a question asked...You gave yours and thanks...that is all I was looking for...
If you ask..I could give you my opinion on the whole aspect of religions(not just christianity) in general, but that hasn't been asked of me.
So far I have only answered my own question with my opinion, and asked for others...and I have asked certian people other questions so I can get a clearer picture of thier answer.
I will say that in my opinion...Most Christian based beliefs seem to hold a predestination..which is...Serve god=go to heaven...Don't Serve god=go to hell. If fact everyone holds a predestination...We are all going to die...someday...
I always assumed it was ultimately free will. You were never predestined to make a choice. Whatever crossed your path, whatever the circumstances, it was always the free will of the individual to determine which option to take. I just assumed that there might be a time or two in your life that the circumstances might have been the result of the ripple of a butterfly effect. Or not. but it didn't matter since it contributed no more than a tiny iota to the experiences of your life.
I don't really understand your other question. Negative positive. Free will couldn't be limited by anthing external, or you wouldn't really have free will.
That's why I said it depends on your idea of the nature of the divine. It doesn't fit with an all powerful patriarchal type as taught in the Old Testament, but can easily be lined up with the teachings of Jesus. So it can fall in line with one of the monotheistic religions. Very loosely.
The teaching of Jesus isn't exactly what is followed by most christians. They follow more along line of S/Pauls teachings. And the Jewish and Muslims don't follow the teachings of Jesus at all.
To avoid the evils of the circumstances; the individual is free to pray to the Creator-God to ask forgiveness of Him beforehand and seeks His help :
[1:5] Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … r.php?ch=1
Quran does not force anything on anybody; it is a very clear teaching of Quran/Islam/Muhammad:
[2:257] There should be no compulsion in religion. Surely, right has become distinct from wrong; so whosoever refuses to be led by those who transgress, and believes in Allah, has surely grasped a strong handle which knows no breaking. And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … ;verse=256
We have to be given the ability to choose between different situations in order to exercise our agency. Hence we are put here to learn and develop our knowledge by experiencing mortality. I can turn left or right, or just walk around in circles, Just because I can't flap my arms and fly doesn't mean I'm without agency. I could build an airplane if I felt so limited in my choices, in all honesty the sky is the limmit, But then again there are space shuttles to address that problem too.
I have had many conversations with my m-i-l on this subject and I believe that we have limited free will. We can decide where to live, what to eat, how to dress, what to buy, how to spend our time and what profession we persue. There are circumstances and laws which may prevent our 'free will'. I may want to roam around naked, but there are laws preventing me from doing so. I may want to travel the world, but my lack of finances would prevent it.
As far as the religious aspect, I think God knows ALL the possible paths we may encounter and He knows what we will choose, but whether it's wright or wrong, he lets us choose.
I recently saw the movie The Adjustment Bureau, which has an interesting take on this very subject!! It was awesome!
Question for you, so I can get a better understanding of one thing you said in the religious portion: If you get a reward (heaven) for one choice and a punishment (hell) for another choice, in your opinion, is that still freewill? Or do you have freedom of choice, in your opinion, as long as you are willing to accept the outcome?
And, I'll have to check out that movie.
Well Yes. Some times, we are aware of the consequences our choices will bring, yet we do it anyway. But the difference is the not knowing for sure what the consequence will be. If I wanted to do something but was not certain of the outcome, I may still do it and just hope for the best. If ,however, I was told or knew ahead of time the absolute consequence for such a choice, i.e heaven or hell, then I would choose the path that would lead to heaven.
And definitely see that movie. It is very thought provoking. As a matter of fact-look me up when you see it, I'd like to know what you thought!!
To avoid the evils of the circumstances; the individual is free to pray to the Creator-God to ask forgiveness of Him beforehand and seek His help :
[1:5] Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … r.php?ch=1
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