I don't think I've ever had this discussion before and I'm just curious if there is any common thought on this.
No. No preemies in heaven, just cute little cherubs flying around. But you do get to take your hemorrhoids with. No baggage fee.
There no scripture for the word Rapture,nor going to heaven BEFORE Judgment Day.What happen was that someone included the word to mean a separate time when everyone that is saved will go to heaven while the earth is going through a tribulation period for 7 years after which they shall return to earth.The scriptures that is given concerning that don't refer to such an event at all.It is an assumption and theory and nowhere near the truth.
The scriptures that they refer to is speaking of JUDGMENT DAY and not a self -impose Rapture of pagan belief.
There is no such thing.The scriptures that is given refer to JUDGMENT DAY...and NOT a 7 YEAR TRIBULATION PERIOD.
Let me rephrase the question - On Judgment Day, will the unborn be judged along with everyone else?
Would that include the proverbial 'twinkle' in ones eye?
well that was the original question
A lot of the responses were focused on whether the "rapture" is real or not. And that actually doesn't matter much to me. It will either happen or it won't; the world will end or it won't; but pregnant women die every day. I guess I should have phrased it in that way - what happens to an unborn child if the mother dies (as far as God's judgment).
However, I will admit that the latest rapture hoax offered a great opportunity to start what has been a very interesting conversation - lol.
Actually, the innocent are already judged and found innocent. The guilty are judged and found guilty.
Where do you see yourself at this point, SirDent? Do you believe you are innocent or guilty?
There is no such thing as the rapture,. but if there was, the unborn baby would be taken.It would have never sinned.
Salvation is not something someone needs to nor can DO. God is the one who saves you from all kinds of things
An unborn baby has nothing to repent
I lean toward the belief that a person gains a soul with the first breath. So, I do not necessarily believe that an unborn child - who I do believe enters the world sinless - has a soul to present for judgment.
If there was a rapture to take people away it would not be for judgment. The concept of the Christian is that those who belong to God would be taken.
The soul according to the Hebrew definition is the whole person,. the mind,. body everything.
The spirit is the part that comes from God and returns to God.
In Hebrew, the spirit is what all the English call the soul,. but is not the same thing. The unborn baby has the soul, spirit and body.
Seems you are basing your belief on the verse in Genesis that says "and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life"
God did that once and then every child was in the image of his parents,. therefore had both the spirit and soul.
And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
This has to be the oddest question I've run across in a while. I certainly hope you get some responses. I'll be interested in reading them. How would you answer the question?
I feel sorry for anyone who would believe that a god/divinity would leave an unborn child behind while it's mother was raptured up to heaven, presumably just because said foetus had not yet heard of JC.
Mind you the whole idea of the rapture is the most bloodthirsty, un-christian concept that man ever dreamed up - not dissimilar to the Romans sitting in the heights enjoying assorted Christians being thrown to the lions in the Colosseum
I think you misunderstand the "rapture" according to Christianity.
And it might be more a scenario where the soul of the child is taken up (raptured) while the mother (if she's not a believer) gets left behind. Children are innocent until they reach the time where they can make an informed decision about right and wrong, like Thrifty Diane said.
That being said, I think too many people have taken the "Left Behind" series of movies too literally.
While there's no reference to the word rapture in the Bible, the concept is there. A couple of people were "raptured", Enoch and Elijah. I just find no reason to think a future rapture will be an event like most people think.
I believe the "rapture" to simply be the one-time, end-of-time event when Christ comes back to sort us all out, to take His people to Heaven and the unbelievers to judgement.
And while I could be wrong about the event, I see no reason for God to simply make some people disappear while leaving everyone else behind. Because if, by the time He comes back, they haven't made up their minds about what they believe, then living through a literal period of "tribulation" isn't gonna change their minds or hearts. And the reason I think that is this-----Jesus came to this earth and literally gave his life for everyone. If that witness already isn't good enough, then nothing is. As the Old Testament says, some will not believe "though one rose from the dead".....
Unfortunately Brenda, too many people do seem to believe in this literal view of the rapture and even seem to relish the idea. This makes them cruel and bloodthirsty in my opinion.
The whole idea of a final judgement day where only believers in JC get a free pass to heaven is so wrong in so many ways. Yes the human race will probably come to an end one day, but it will be down to natural causes, not some vengeful old deity smacking his chops at the idea of finally getting to throw the heathens into the fiery pit for eternity
I truly enjoyed reading your conversation with Brenda. You both have very interesting points of view. Thanks for participating in my first forum post.
Well, this is quite an odd topic and a difficult one at that.
Hello Lynn, welcome to HP.
I can only respond to your question with what I know --so far-- to be accurate. There is no such event called Rapture to take place. As for the unborn participating, should such an event exist --that would defy the requiring of salvation (also known as Born Again meaning birth by water; birth by spirit). Each individual can be 'caught up' or glorified at any age, as it only requires rejecting the premise of sin & death and accepting fully the premise of Eternal Life.
I hope this eases your concerns, at least to some degree.
As there will be no marriage in heaven it seems unlikely that an out of wedlock child would be welcome. Unless perhaps the mother is to be pregnant for eternity, forever suffering the discomfort of her condition?
Or perhaps it would be accepted, but only after the first trimester - that seems to be a defining point for humans. A fertilized egg need not apply.
At the time of the end both death and Life will walk the face of this earth as men.
Now the water will come and make the separation between the two.
Life because of the water have found it within themselves to rise above it (Water) into eternal Life.
And Death because of and by the same water are overcomed.
So babies at that present time will be born not as Life but as death and so they also will be overcome by the water.
as usual you speak in much supposedly-mysterious wording that simply translates to confusion....or nonsense from what I can tell.
If the darkness would understand the Light, then it would Live.....
but since all darkness will do is scoff .....its death remain.
Light on the other hand always understand the darkness,
And that being so He looked at it and say .....It is Good.
Have you decided who you are?
I'm an adopted child of God, born-again by Jesus Christ.
I also know who I am NOT. Unlike some around here who I've seen make posts claiming to BE God.
Do you think women would spontaneously deliver? Is that what you're saying? And do you think peoples bodies will not be taken in the raputer? Interesting - different than what I was taught as a child.
No, those that will be born at that time fate would have already been decided by that time....
Meaning that The number to be "raptured" would have already been fulfilled.
I use the term rapture so as to relate to this thread
But it is not a physical body going up into the sky but a person by His own spiritual knowledge passing from death into Life...
Meaning that by their faith they possess the knowledge that enables them transform their physicality into that which is Spirituality.
Babies and children have complete innocence until they reach the maturity of understanding right from wrong. A fetus is still a baby - it simply has not developed enough to live on its own.
Well, since the rapture predicted for tomorrow is moronic, having an argument about whether or not fetuses are going to be included in the non-existent event is a really great example of begging the question.
I was prompted because I think those who believe abortion is murder should have answered yes - unborn fetuses will be raptured.
Looks like no one is getting raptured in NZ where its well past 6pm on the 21st - looks like it was yet another con of the naive and gullible - again - but this so-called man of God
yep another religious nut conning gullible people out of their life savings
I'm loving the current banner on the website http://www.familyradio.com/index2.html Judgement Day May 21 2011 - the Bible Guarantees It!
Well, I guess it has to be true then!
What I find ironic is that the same people who I am positive would look you straight in the face and tell you witchcraft is satanic, based this false prophecy on numerology, which is technically a form of withcraft. And that's where I have to draw the line between what I believe and what is passing for Christianity in many areas of this country.
The bible if full of numerology and it is not witchcraft. Why do you think certain key numbers were used over and over in scripture. Witchcraft... Gees
I think if you read the Bible with your heart and mind open to God's word that you will find the truth. I think if you try to "decode" the Bible using man-made theories, then you probably will not receive the message God has for you as an individual. And, I would suggest that the use of numerology in relation to God's will may cause some people to wrongly predict the end of the world.
No not true. I have searched and studied scripture since I was 14. I am an ordained Jewish minister. If you study the Hebrew Bible it is easy to see. No need to decode. The English Bible is a generic like translation.
The bible is deep and has many mysteries.
Please don't tell me because you don't agree with me that I need to find God.
The Hebrews didn't have numbers in those days and used the alphabet to express them. And it's all through the bible. Any Hebrew will tell you the same thing. The bible was written in Hebrew and Aramaic both languages of the Hebrew people.
Calling something that is of God, witchcraft is not good.
No one in the Jewish religion predicts the end of the world,. that was a Christian that did that. Christians are the only ones who believe in the rapture and that person did.
Tunnel vision takes us no where
Whether or not we agree and however you choose to worship God is irrelevant to me. This question wasn't particularly about the rapture or numerology. This question was my (obviously poorly done) attempt to determine what readers think about whether the unborn have a soul.
So far, so good, then Lissie. Glad to hear you're still in one piece!
Maybe nobody in NZ is worthy of being raptured? Don't expect too many of us in the UK will be going up either!
Maybe not enough 'rapturees' to make the earthquake worth it?
Thanks for stopping by. I'm glad to hear I didn't miss anything.
It looks like God is angry that we trampled his garden.
1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
I reckon this pertains to those raptured with unborn child. The raptured would be sanctified and so would the child within the sanctified person.
Another example of rapture being UNscriptural and YET another of Christendoms FALSE doctrinal beliefs.
As I age and reread my Bible with a closer eye, I admit I have many more questions. Anyway, the unborn child is innocent, right? Or, would you lean more to my belief that the soul comes with the breath?
1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the (believing) wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the (believing) husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
Innocent.... hmmm. Pretty hard to point a finger at a child.
Romans 3:23 all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Salvation is needed by everyone, without it, a person cannot know God. As unsaved children grow up they succumb to the indoctrination of a sinful world and its sinful precepts. So i wouldn't say innocent, exactly, unsuspecting maybe lol, but, as close to innocent as innocent is.
Soul comes with the breath.... a living soul has breath and a dead soul has no breath. Gen 2:7 is interesting stuff. My belief is that the soul is our fleshly housing and that humans are spiritually dead without God. I don't subscribe to the triune human belief.
I am a Christian but I am entranced by Thomas Payne's Age of Reason. I believe in one God and no more ... God's existence is proven by existence itself ... and I also agree that it would have been a better miracle if Jonah had swallowed the whale.
At the same time, I cannot let go of my childhood indoctrination ... although I recognize that I was misled in some of the teachings and scriptures taught out of context.
anyway, I really appreciate that you took the time to respond. I think somewhere in the scripture Paul says that those who die without an opportunity to receive the Good News are subject to judgment by God's natural law - which I think would technically cover an unborn child - IF you believe the soul resides within the body prior to the body's birth.
I don't know, but thanks again!
Some things we may never know, but in all things i do not consider God to ever be unfair or vindictive. Children are a sore spot with some of us but its just another soul and spirit to God and really He can do what he wants with it. For those that enter Gods afterlife I am sure all questions and stumbling blocks will be removed and answered. It is best just to do the best we can do and after we sleep, we will most assuredly know all things then. Not to mention it will be worth it all.
Indoctrination is only erased by thorough praying combined with study. Once the truth is revealed the indoctrination becomes a thing despised and i always find, it brings us closer to the real God. Fasting does indeed help when one is heavily burdened.
Peace In Him dear seeker
hehe jonah swallowed the whale.. funny
no, indoctrination is not erased with prayer & bible study - that's what Harold Camping did for decades and still ended up with egg on his face.
Indoctrination is erased by questioning what one believes and becoming educated about different options. Learning to think for oneself.
no you are wrong.
try the other side of the bed to wake up on
Once the truth is revealed the indoctrination becomes a thing despised and I ALWAYS FIND, it brings us closer to the real God.
I have seen what your experience has gotten you.
how can you ALWAYS FIND - you haven't been a christian very long, & you weren't indoctrinated from childhood.
And where has my experience gotten me? Out of madness and mayhem
Oh you play the numbers game do you. A christian is only experienced if they have been in it for a long time huh. Sorry too notice you miss this aspect of God. Length of service is not a major player in Gods kingdom; devotion and obedience are.
I was dragged to anglican church as a child until whatever age i stopped going, 12 maybe.
There is no madness or mayhem you just have to handle things correctly, obviously you didn't handle things correctly. Maybe if you had have followed my advice above...... i did and i am still here, getting stronger all the time.
arrogantly in your own delusion, I see. You have a lot in common with H. Camping.
I see how you failed.
don't misconstrue positional confidence, relationship closeness and knowing where i stand for arrogance.
Thanks for sayin "oh yeah i see what you mean broYo.. that does kinda make sense". Just go ahead and attack if that makes you feel better. God loves ya and man, i am tryin too also.
I perceive you are having troubles being nice tonight so i will not get into more talk with you.
You yourself put a definition of indoctrination here already - your words:
"A synonym of indoctrinate is brainwash, propagandize BUT the definition is:
1. to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., especially to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view."
In essence, you are saying that prayer and study will reveal the indoctrination, yet it is the "doctrine, principle, ideology and biased belief" which has already being described as the indoctrination.
All you'll manage to do if you follow your logic is to only reinforce and embrace the indoctrination.
If I became like you, then I would simply exchange my current worldview to yours, taking on your "doctrine" for life. Thereby, becoming indoctrinated to think and believe as you do.
What have I gained? Nothing but a different worldview.
Judging your perspective on many things (based on your many posts), I don't want to be like you any more than you want to be like me.
So where does that lead us?
Right back to where we started.
Hence, a circular argument.
Why do you work so tirelessly trying to convert believers to your doctrines?
That still doesn't show that you are questioning anything or thinking for yourself. Sure, it's easy to be indoctrinated into scientific theories as it is for religion, one just readily accepts whatever they're told without question or reserve.
What you mean is I don't want to stop thinking and you don't want to start, yes?
Not really, formulating an argument for your faith would be required before it become circular.
I just question your doctrines, conversions are based on your answers.
There you go again, accusing me of not thinking for myself.
It's the same, lame approach you (all) use, insinuating that non-believers are thinkers (as if that were some exalted trait), and all the believers are mindless morons (more or less).
And then, you have the hide to say we are condescending, when we assert our beliefs.
It would be so refreshing for one of your ilk to just admit that you also are creatures of faith, just directed at materialism/naturalism doctrines.
Even Dawkins did that, (even if it was a slip of the tongue).
But, you aren't thinking, your posts are evidence of that. You believe indoctrination is exactly the same thing as teaching, but it's not, by a long shot.
You believe those who have spent years getting an eduction have been indoctrinated.
You see, you haven't any idea of the differences.
And, to top it all off and make things even worse, you fabricate stories to support your indoctrination.
Well, you might get my take on the subject of indoctrination. That's all. I actually wrote my perspective on it.
It doesn't surprise me that you don't want to read it.
You did that with me several times before.
Maybe you are afraid my materials might weaken your own position on things.
Don't read it!
I don't much care.
I just felt it made it easier for me not having to rewrite my hub to answer your last reply to me.
It can't be indoctrination if he has to fabricate stories to support his claims.It would just mean he was lying all along surely?
Fabricating stories to support a belief system is just one of the nasty results of religious indoctrination. We see it all the time with topics that range from intelligent design to answered prayers vs. starving children.
It isn't lying because they believe it to be true. It is an acceptance of a belief without question.
I would have thought that fabricating facts to support a religious position was a sure sign there was a lack of faith. This being the case, indoctrination seems to have been futile. Indoctrination should mean that a person doesn't seek to justify his beliefs. He should be blindly unaware that they are anything but fact.
By the way, I hate this 'rapture' nonsense. I was just curious what this forum was about.
Sorry, but how does that make sense? A lack of faith would not indicate someone needed to fabricate stories as the truth often is enough to warrant one from following a religion.
But, that's all we find here are believers attempting to justify their beliefs, many having to fabricate stories in order to do it, especially when they are faced with the facts of reality.
This is just semantics.
You are on a mission to expose religious people as unenlightened frauds, I get that. I also don't mind that. I prefer sectarian argument to the argument about God existing. The God existing argument always seems a bit peripheral and rudimentary. I want to get stuck in with, why do we feel this way?
Fabricating stories to support a belief system is just one of the nasty results of SCIENTIFIC indoctrination. We see it all the time with topics that range from Big Bang Theories to Atomic Weapons vs. starving children in the most scientifically based countries ( US, Russia, UK, India, Japan, Australia).
[collard greens, ding pick `em up! ]
No doubt, in fact it is just plain scary.
Albeit, I am no fan of religion, but history is history:
more humans have either been killed or died as the result of one or more of the sciences.
Most of our circle of friends agree that no religion would have any power to kill without the weapons provided by science. Let's face it, a theist didn't invent a gun, a motor vehicle, an atomic weapon, sonic wave cannons and electricity. Although, religion did invent wine, beer, brandies and other various liquors -oh and Kamasutra. Very horrible, awful things.
Since we are supposed to love God with all our minds, as well as heart and soul and strength, I have a follow up question to the OP.
Will morons and simpletons be included in the rapture?
Maybe not Camping's, but they are welcome in the rapture of My End Time Prophecy. For a price. I've already set up my Pay Pal account for donations from believers. The heathens will have to pay in cash. You may not have heard of it. I'm still working on the media coverage.
What a haughty position you adopt!
You consider the intellectuals as being of higher value than "simpletons & morons".
God has chosen the weak to overcome the strong, and the foolish to confound the wise. He came to seek and save that which was lost. He calls the sinner to repentance, not the righteous. He came heal the sick, not the well.
If you really understood what you quoted (re loving God), you would have answered your own question.
Even a simpleton or moron, if they love God with all their (feeble according to you) mind, they still do it with ALL, even though their mental/intellectual ability is far below yours.
So, YES they will. And may I say ahead of the self righteous of this world.
I hope I answered your question clearly.
Perfectly, and accurately.
You are absolutely correct in your parsing of the heart of scripture.
Mine was simply a commentary on those that do not use their brain power to realize they are extrapolating to the point of absurdity the lessons scripture is teaching.
But you are absolutely correct in what you post.
One must be able to comprehend the nature of sin in order to be judged sinful. So, I guess it would depend on the depth of understanding that the moron or simpleton possesses.
In relation to my question, the moron or simpleton has already been born and exists in the natural world, so God has something to base judgment on.
doesnt look like anyone was included in this 'rapture'
But I heard the date was moved to October now.
That's gonna really put a damper on Halloween this year
I have nothing against any spiritual practice and if you took my statement that way then I certainly extend you an apology. I simply find it humorous that those claiming one faith - a clear example of extreme andmisguided Christianity - would employ a practice that I have no doubt they would otherwise condemn.
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