dreams: astrology and metaphysics versus mental health

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   Sue B.posted 12 years ago

   I decided to add this topic because I am passionate about dream interpretation but have noticed hubpages is rather divided about the subject.  Perhaps I will eventually write a hub on it but was curious to know what others thought.
   I write a lot of material on dreams under mental health-> dreams and dreaming.  I have discovered hubpages also have astrology and metaphysics-->dreams.  Which one is more appropriate and which perspective do you identify with more?
   I personally view dreams as the key to gaining insight into our subconscious mind.  This is rather broad since part of the subconscious is our spirituality.  I find dreams to be psychological, intellectual, spiritual and sometimes physical/medical.  Although defining dreams is like defining thoughts-- there are many different types of thoughts.
   What is your view?  Which category is most appropriate and why?  Which category attracts the better hubs on dreams?

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      Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Mental health.
      In a manner of speaking you would be correct.
      Not actually true.
      Actually, defining thoughts are easier than dream interpretation. Dreams incorporate knowledge, experience and wisdom(unknown and known), which is why dreams standout more than just random thoughts.
      I just gave you mine.
      Just explained.
      In today's day and age, mental health would attract more visitors. Too many people cannot wrap their mind around the subject, simply due to the fact that society/humanity has been dumbed down for at least 20 years now.

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      deblippposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      It is my experience that dreams can be different at different times. Most dreams are psychological in nature, arising from the subconscious. Some dreams are spiritual in nature, arising from the superconscious. The realm of dreams is far too complex to be confined to only one or the other.
      
      So, it makes sense for dreams to be categorized in both places, where very different discussions can occur.

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         Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Nice try as justification, but the word you used is non-existent, with regards to human consciousness.

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            Sue B.posted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I appreciate deblipp's perspective.  Her use of superconscious made sense to me.  Superconscious is related to spirituality so this can relate to human consciousness depending upon your spiritual beliefs.
            I do see psychology and spirituality as linked.
            I am trained as a therapist but I also feel I need to acknowledge spiritual and cultural beliefs and aspects of who someone is.  I see dreams as in both categories which is why I am conflicted about which one to actually use for hubs.  I think I'll post half in one and the other half in the other. I wish we had just one central location because it would be interesting combine all perspectives.

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               Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Only one problem with your assessment. The only spirituality required by the human species is Love. Nothing else is necessary. Any other form of spirituality is destructive to one's own psychology.
               Only through love for self and others.
               The aspect that needs to be address is ignorance in understanding of one's own life. Usually, is what causes more problems than realized.
               Perspectives are good. I will agree there, but rational ones are the only ones that should be accepted. Irrational perspectives should be addressed with the knowledge and wisdom of understanding of one's own life.
               
               Since you are a therapist, then I would hope that you have a firmer grip on understanding your own life, before you decide to help others. Otherwise, you do more damage than realized.

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            deblippposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I beg your pardon, but superconscious is an old and well-established word: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_consciousness (for one example).

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               Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Just because you find it on Wiki, doesn't mean it actually is true. Or did you not know that?
               
               Wiki isn't actually a reliable source.

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                  deblippposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  In this case, Wikipedia is an excellent source. I can easily cite a dozen other sources. Are you so obstinate that you can't look this up for yourself?
                  
                  Here is Superconsciousness Magazine: www.superconsciousness.com/
                  Here is Ananda.org, a major Yoga center, talking about the three levels of consciousness: http://www.ananda.org/meditation/suppor … ance2.html

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   klarawieckposted 12 years ago

   I've had some great revelations about my future in dreams. Things that I couldn't have known otherwise, but I've been able to dream in advanced. To me, there are symbolic dreams - those that show your fears, anxieties, desires, worries, etc. and then, there are foretelling dreams. I've had them both, and I'm able to tell them apart.

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   earnestshubposted 12 years ago

   I'm with Cags on the dumbing down part.
   
   I recorded hundreds of my dreams in Jungian based dream therapy.
   
   I believe that with a good knowledge of dream therapy, dreams can be the high road to the subconscious.
   
   My experience was that more time should be spent understanding our own archetypes and symbols before we embark on what is otherwise a totally confusing process if we want to know more self.

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   klarawieckposted 12 years ago

   Dream dictionaries are a waste of time. I've come to learn part of my own symbology. I think you're right on that Earnest. Everyone should be more aware of what their particular symbols mean.

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      earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      In my case I read 30 odd books and did a year establishing as clear a picture of my symbols as we could get,...... before starting on the deeper archetypal dreams in therapy.

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         dutchman1951posted 12 years agoin reply to this

         reference some of those books please, I want to know and read them also

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            earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Well I guess I began with Carl Jung's "dreams and reflections" "Man and his Symbols" after I already had the basics of Jung's "psychological types", so I must have read that earlier.
            
            I bought my kids the little paperback of "I'm OK Your OK" then read it myself to get a fresh handle on transactional analysis again which I had read about in a much larger book that was a waste of time, as the little book for kids was better.
            
            All my books are temporarily stored at my son's place since the flood we had, but I can get all the titles in time, or if we converse more so that I can discover better what you understand so far, I may be able to recommend a good point to continue from.

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               dutchman1951posted 12 years agoin reply to this

               I am at the Basics of understanding the archtype. How i manifest it inside me, when it comes up? and why it appears as it does?
               
               Basicly want to know how to free of it, become my real self, nothing more.and to accept and like that.  Hard facts to face so far! But I am.
               
               

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                  Denise Handlonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  well worth the facing of it. 

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                     dutchman1951posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     I am trying

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                        Denise Handlonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        It is interesting stuff, though, isn't it?

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                           dutchman1951posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           Very, I am actualy learning how I manifest this, it really affects your outlook, feeling and it can be devistating if not adressed with some knowledge and I am begining to see it in the threads a lot also.
                           
                           very interesting

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                  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Good for you! Taking responsibility for self is a huge move forward for all of us I believe.

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                     dutchman1951posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     I am convinced of it now, I have read myself, and others here!
                     
                     a lot of work needed and to be done I think

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                        earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        Yes, for all of us. Man learns and grows in this world, or something inside becomes poisonous and we resort to "other than self" behaviour.

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                           dutchman1951posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           so I am learning, yes
                           
                           I really wish you would do a Hub all about this, several, I enjoy the knowledge in your posts

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   Denise Handlonposted 12 years ago

   I've studied my own dreams since I was a very young girl.  Love the symbolisim and I agree with Klarawiek-it is important to discover your own symbols and archetypes.
   
   I would classify it under the mental health, like you are already doing Susan.

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      Sue B.posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I can't help but notice though how great the discussion is under THIS classification! Perhaps I'll start to add some hubs to astrology and metaphysics!

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   earnestshubposted 12 years ago

   The road least traveled is not an easy road, but I believe that the more we understand self, the better we are able to live with ourselves.
   
   Jung called the process towards self "Individuation"
   
   Most men won't have the courage to approach the process as it is daunting to see the shadow self and own it, which is part of the learning as is owning the affected child within, along with advice from Jung not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
   
   Interestingly archetypal dreams accompany progress to provide accurate measurement as we grow, the types of dreams we have are like milestones, culminating in the "dark sea journey" which is a strong dream and brilliantly vivid known to Jungian psychology.
   
   There is much to know, like any knowing, but once you can read and understand "The Puer Papers" I think you can straighten your back for a while.

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      dutchman1951posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      i am looking up those papers as we speak here, thank you

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   Jewelsposted 12 years ago

   I can easily link the subjects of astrology and dreaming into the realm of mental health, after all it's all related.  Astrology for example is a language to describe influences, or character traits if you like.  I'm not talking tabloid astrology here.  Dream interpretation is not so simple and I like what has been previously mentioned about symbols and knowing yours.  Really dream interpretation is quite personal - not all gloves fit. And often dream spaces are not so simple to personalize.
   
   The mental health category is primed for mainstream therapies - psychology, psychiatry and drug companies.  As Cags wrote above, we are so dumbed down and this trend will continue for awhile yet. Bridging old crafts such as astrology or metaphysics to our psychology or mental health will only happen by stepping out of the box.
   
   It doesn't have to be a them versus us thing.  Those really interested in changing their lives will seek what works.  Generally many people are not interested in or have been disappointed by mainstream therapies and search the alternate category.

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      dutchman1951posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I can relate and understand to being disapointed in therapy. Have seen it happen

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   earnestshubposted 12 years ago

   Hi Jewels, you are spot on about Astrology. It is a very useful tool within psychology and can be used along with dream therapy and is a valid language for working with character traits within a therapeutic environment.

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   Happyboomernurseposted 12 years ago

   Sounds like a great idea. Personally, I'm interested in all these things.

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    Happyboomernurseposted 12 years ago

    I would tend to classify it under mental health, but depending on the slant of a particular hub it could easily go under metaphysics (such as vivid encounters with loved ones who are deceased) and possibly astrology.

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    Muldanianmanposted 12 years ago

    Most of my dreams are literal.  I dream of things that have been playing on my mind before going to sleep.  However, I have had a few dreams which have predicted events, usually horrible ones that later happened.  I am very interested in discovering how such dreams could work, i.e. how is it logically possible to dream accurately about things which have not yet happened?  Where do these dreams come from?  On the one hand, I do not rationally believe such dreams are possible, yet know for certain that they do happen.

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       Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Sometimes we are allowed a glimpse which comes from outside of our time/space. This is proof that there is something connected to us which exists outside of this time/space. This occuring to you means (to me) that you have the pathfinder in your ancestry. A pathfinder uses the light given by the divine to find a way in the darkness for the footsteps of mankind to follow. In our generation it is much weaker, but more widespread through the population. In the past stronger, but fewer possessors

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          klarawieckposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          makes perfect sense to me!

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       earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       "lots of my dreams are literal"
       I would like to confirm that remembering only literal dreams is common.
       
       Dreams that are not remembered are sometimes more informative. For example some I know do not remember a lot of their dreams until they hit a wall of the so-called "mid-life crisis" in their 40's when a flood of dreams often occur.
       
       It seems we all dream but we don't remember all of them when we wake.

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    psycheskinnerposted 12 years ago

    If you use the encoded meaning of dreams as found in dream dictionaries, that would be metaphysics.  If you delve into what dreams may actually mean about one's mental states, then mental health.

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       Sue B.posted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Hi psycheskinner,
       
       I suppose that is the bottom line distinction which is why dreams are found in two categories to begin with.
       For me, I believe i see dreams and dream interpretation as both.  Although I side more with the mental health perspective and find dreams very personal to the dreamer, I recognize that we are not "islands" and what influences one person often influences another.  Dream dictionaries often reflect beliefs and culture that influences the dreamer's personal intepretation of symbols.  If, and I should emphasize if, two people are from the same culture and background, they would have very similar interpretations to a particular symbol 9 times out of 10.  It is this cultural aspect of dreams and their meaning that I find so fascinating. Dreams become what you believe they will be in many ways.
       I am very interested in earnestshub's experience with Jungian based dream therapy.  I studied my own dreams for years as well as read material regarding different perspectives of the meaning of dreams.  I have often found a more ecclectic approach to help me understand the full meaning of a dream.  Dreams are fascinating and are often layered-- they often do not just mean one thing.  Carl Jung's approach is fascinating atlhough I am conflicted about his more spiritual beliefs and how this ties into his psychological concepts.

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    earnestshubposted 12 years ago

    I believe that spirituality is an important part of psychology and therapy.
    
    Rich pickings are to be found in spiritual beliefs for the psychologist to establish a base of personal archetypes and symbols.

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    psycheskinnerposted 12 years ago

    A spiritual life that involves the supernatural is important to people who have one.  To those who don't, not so much.

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    earnestshubposted 12 years ago

    Jung is a large project, but worth the effort in my view. So much that "hangs around" dreams can be gleaned from the works of Hillman and other post Jungians as well.
    
    In therapy dreams seem to track along with the spoken therapy very well, following the next step one at a time towards self awareness.
    
    For me. some shadow aspects of self appear in dream poetry, the anima is often glimpsed for the first time in dreams, the dark sea journey coming at the end of therapy.
    
    dreams can display resistance to therapy or the "making conscious" of darker aspects of self that want to be discovered but are hiding within neurosis that will only release them in complex code. There are several case studies that have been stranger than fiction where for example one dreamer had mathematically hidden his complex within a code so complex it took ages to fathom, yet the man was no mathematician.
    As the high road to the subconscious dreams can and do produce the most complex of processes as well as simple almost scriptural understandings as well.
    I may start reading up on dreams again......it's been a while and I can tell by my feeble attempts to explain the little I remember that I am rusty.
    Love the subject though.

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       deblippposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       My favorite Jungian authors are Robert Johnson and Christine Dowling. Each works with mythology as a lens on the self. Johnson's book "Inner Work" is probably the best dream interpretation work I've ever read.

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    Spirit Whispererposted 12 years ago

    Working with dreams are a large part of what I do in my own private practice and would love to see more people write about dreams and their relevance in healing and our everyday lives. I start every day asking each member of my family about their dreams the night before and so dreams have become an important start to my family's day. Dreams can reveal a lot about a person which they may not wish to share with the world so I think people should know this before posting their dreams on the internet seeking interpretation.

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    Monisajdaposted 12 years ago

    I use my intuition a lot. Of course whenever appropriate I use common sense, first of all. But following my heart and listening to universe for signs is what I do. I have had quite a few dreams in my life that were very significant and I was able to figure out their meaning on my own. Thus, I am more inclined to say that I would pick astrology and metaphysics rather than mental health.

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       Sue B.posted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Interesting.  Intuition is something I attempt to listen to.  Psychology has a lot to say about intuition.  Whatever the reason why we think we should listen to intuition, it is noteworthy to realize many perspectives highlight its importantce.  Psychology sees intuition as our ability to listen to unconscious/subconscious information.  To function, we must filter out so much of the information we receive.  If we didn't do this, we would appear to have autism.  Psychology sees intuition as a part of us that is reacting to information we consciously have not received but is there (ex- subliminal information, gestures and other little hints, etc.).  I think it's fascinating stuff.
       I often feel as though we fight over words but are almost talking about the same exact things just from different angles.  In the end though, if we make the same decisions, it doesn't matter where we came from and why.
       It's so interesting! Thanks for writing.

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          klarawieckposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I agree... there is a lot of labeling, and at the end, it all comes down to the same thing.
          To me, our subconscious mind is nothing other than our true essence, our spirit, our eternal self... the one that lives in a realm where there is no such thing as time and space, therefore it is aware of what we consider our past, present, and future. That's how we are able to dream of things that have not happened to us in our physical life.

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    Jean Bakulaposted 12 years ago

    Well, if dreams interest you most, write about dreams. They are the door to the subconscious. Astrology, Metaphysics, Tarot, and all these topics overlap somewhat. Most are just more unorthodox ways of answering questions we have about life. Dreams are specfic, but so is a tarot reading. None of it is "fortune telling" it's just a picture of your potentials. You always have free will to do as you wish. I have seen truth in Astrology and tarot, but I have studied Astrology for well over 30 yrs. I always have trouble with the catagories for my hubs, so don't that get to you. So far I haven't been corrected or told my choice of subject was unsuitable for what I wrote. Dreams are a great topic, and I don't see lots of it on HP, go for it! Best!

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       klarawieckposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Funny thing about Tarot reading is that whenever I've tried to do the reading by the book (By the meaning of the cards) I get it all wrong. I had to turn away from everything I've learned about them, and try to use them as a mere point of focus, so I can do my own interpretation. To me, the tarot cards have been as useful as a crystal ball... I am better at reading energies.

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    Jean Bakulaposted 12 years ago

    klaraweick, if you get a psychic feeling or notice something differerent than the "book meaning" happens when you get a certain card, by all means trust your instincts! The Star is supposed to be about Hope, and maintaining balance. By itself it's not a strong card, but about regrouping after the harder cards and experiences that come in them before it. I like to look at the 22 cards as the Soul's journey. Whenever someone I love is sick, I get the Star. If it's reversed, it's seriously ill. It's happened several times, so now I use my own discretion, I know what it means. Never predict a death to a client. But you know what's going on yourself. Yours in Tarot, Jean

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       klarawieckposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       My favorite reading is 3 cards for the past, 3 for the present, 3 for the future, one row above the other one. It's pretty basic. My problem is BAD MEMORY! So I could never remember all the positions for the Celtic cross, etc. I just use my own intuition now, not the cards.

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    Jonathan Jancoposted 12 years ago

    I would make a great case study for anyone who wanted to interpret my dreams. Because I've got some mindboggling ones.

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       klarawieckposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Please share...
       
       I had a dream on Wednesday night that I was able to analyze, but some of the imagery didn't make sense at the time. I was talking to my husband about me taking his car because I couldn't ride a black horse to school. And there in front of me I see the black horse, and his Mazda. He wants to take the car, and I keep telling him to give me the car for that day. Then I see myself at another place looking for him, and in the room I enter there are pieces of green glass all over the place, as if he had gotten upset, drunk, and had smashed all the bottles on the floor. The next morning (yesterday) he had an accident while driving to work. His Mazda got smashed but he was okay. The car that hit him was a black VW Jetta. He called me and I showed up, next thing I know I'm standing on the gravel of the construction site where they had to park while they wrote the other driver a ticket, and all I see around me are green heineken bottles smashed on the floor. This type of dreams happen to me all the time.

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          Jonathan Jancoposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Ok. I'll start w/ a simple one. I'm in a city that is unlike anyone i have ever lived in but a bit like all of them. I sleep in places that are kind of like studio apts and then I climb up a vined wall (or down depending on what neighborhood I wanted to be in). And then I end up in either a rundown commercial neighborhood where the buildings dont even have walls or in a Borders/Barnes&Noble type bookstore but its like 9 floors and made for people 5 times larger than me.

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             klarawieckposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             Jonathan, that's either Gulliver's Travels, or a dream foretelling a successful future as an architect. I don't know. You have to write your dreams down and, with time, you'll figure out the symbology.
             I've come to learn that to me rocks are simbolic of love relationships. Depending on how beautiful, dull, strong, or frail the rocks are, that's how the relationship or the feelings are. You just have to figure out yours.

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                Jonathan Jancoposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                What about a white rabbit the size of an elephant outside my house?
                Based on what you know of me, what do you make of that?

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                   Sue B.posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                   This thread is getting so interesting!
                   
                   Klarawieck- your dream experience is so interesting-- although it's absolutely beyond me!
                   
                   Jonathan- your first dream about living in cities I've had in general before.  To me, this was a dream about self-exploration, discovering (or often times rediscovering) aspects of myself.  Your travels up and down seem like you are delving into yourself, questioning things, peeling back the layers, etc. and being able to see into yourself a bit more.  The part where you are in a place for very large people- this sounds like you either feel very small in the world and lack confidence or you have room to grow.  I would think the meaning would depend how you felt in that dream.
                   
                   Regarding the white rabbit, that sounds a lot like Alice in Wonderland.  Very large symbols I feel are being exaggerated and emphasized.  The White Rabbit is also in the Matrix.  The meaning is these people had to follow the white rabbit into the unknown and trust that they would be discovering something they need to that is important and is their personal truth- a personal mission.  I'm guessing that meaning could relate to you based on the other dream you had.
                   Do you have a drive to do something, find more meaning in your life and have been ignoring it or putting it off?
                   White rabbits can also represent fertility, innocence, rebirth, etc. but that sounds rather generic.  I don't know you but if you are aware of Alice in Wonderland and/or the Matrix, those movies and the meaning they placed on the white rabbit may have created a similar meaning within you for that symbol. 
                   Those were my educated guesses--I'm curious to know what your dreams mean to you!

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                      Jonathan Jancoposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                      I've also always had a fear of being lost or abandoned. Lately, I've been having dreams that are similar to ones I used to have all of the time. I'm in a building that I am aware of as someone's house. But inside the rooms it looks like my high school. Then I go up further and it looks more like my high school. Then I go all the way down and it's like a warehouse and I never seem to get to the ground floor. Weird.

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                         Sue B.posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                         I don't think your dreams are that weird- I've heard similar dreams before and find them common.  I think it's great you identified a fear that you struggle with-- fear of being lost or abandoned. 
                         From that dream you shared, it sounds like you are dealing with some issues you associate with high school- which is where many people have unresolved emotional issues because so much happens during that time.  What you have not resolved then affects how you approach life now.  The warehouse sounds like a place you store things-- your emotional "baggage" I would guess.  You annot get to the ground floor so I would venture to guess the ground floor was either the root of something you are trying to get to or the ground floor is symbolic of your subconscious and you are struggling to uncover something important to you.
                         I usually have the basement as symbolizing the unconscious so if you cannot get to the ground floor, you may feel like you are not "grounded" and could be having difficulty staying within the present moment becaues your emotions, thoughts and reactions are pulling from something unresolved in the past.
                         If you have a fear of being lost or abandoned, you were likely lost or abandoned in the past.  Perhaps dealing with this will help you resolve your dreams?

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                         klarawieckposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                         Hey Jonathan! The white rabbit you'll have to figure out yourself. The symbology will apply to you alone. I was born in 1975 which is the year of the rabbit in the Chinese horoscope.
                         About the dreams where you are entering different rooms, and you're back in your high school, I'm with Sue on that one. Any dream where you are entering rooms, it's you roaming around your subconscious mind looking for something. The fact that you can't get to the basement only means that you are unable to get to the bottom of whatever it is you need to work on... a fear, an emotional closure of some sort, etc. High school is tough, and a lot of damage happen through those years where you struggle between being a child and an adult. There is something there for you to unlock. Next time you have the dream, remember that you can always make conscious choices in your dreams, get it in your head that you will break that door, or make that door appear in front of your eyes, and go all the way down to see what it is.
                         The fear of being abandoned might be related to a past life. I don't know if you believe in reincarnation, but I do, and I've uncovered a few past lives to get over fears that I still carried with me.

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    Jonathan Jancoposted 12 years ago

    And yes, I DO still have a few unaccomplished missions in life.

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    Jonathan Jancoposted 12 years ago

    A place to store emotional baggage? That's very interesting. I hadnt given the matter much thought but it makes alot of sense.
    Reminds me of dreams I was having last year where every night it seemed I would dream I was in a video store. Different each time and not at all like the ones I used to frequent. And I'm just wandering around, browsing. I used to go to rent videos almost everyday. Now, w/netflix and such I never do. And yes there are things in my past that I didnt take seriously enough and am now desparate to reclaim them. Also, regarding certain things especially dating and relationships, I have a continuous irrational fear of making the wrong choice. Dont know why I mentioned it but for some reason I thought it would be significant.

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       Sue B.posted 12 years agoin reply to this

       If you think something is significant than it is.  Your dreams are really cool.  You seem to be doing a lot of self-reflection.  I know some have expressed cautionary words regarding sharing dream because you do not know what they mean and you do not know how much of yourself you are revealing.  While I do agree, I looked at your profile after your last comment and again I believe that we reveal a lot of ourselves in our writing.  You seem to be a very deep person who uses his writing as a way of self-expression.  Of course I ended up following you!  I really like your writing.
       In any event, I would think your dreams are about a current life and I think it's important to look at yourself, your current life and your current situation before you begin to pin a dream's meaning to someone else, a future event or previous life.  When I see someone do that as their initial interpretation of their dream, I start to wonder if they are avoiding something within their "here and now."  You seem to be really delving into what is going on for you, your current experience and how your past influences who  you are now.  Whenever you get to the bottom of this, I am sure it will enhance your writing.  Good luck!

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    klarawieckposted 12 years ago

    Jonathan, listen to Sue on this! That's good advice. I'm a bit flaky up in the head... a musician syndrome.
    
    Sue - you're awesome!

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       Jonathan Jancoposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       That was great advice. I will have employ some of the tips you both gave me.

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