Seperating God From Religion

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Woman Of Courageposted 13 years ago
I have read many posts in the religious forums stating Christians are religionists. Christians aren't meant to pursue religion. As Christians, we are to have a relationship with God, not religion. Personally, I have seperated God from religion when I accepted Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  And, of course, you want to think that this lie will, somehow, make you special, while making all the other RELIGIONS of the world irrelevant.
  
  The ONLY thing you have is a relationship with RELIGION, since you don't know any God to have a relationship with. Trust me!
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  getitrite, Everyone is special, and that includes you. I hope my words erase some of the misery you are experiencing. Take care.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Your words are only whimsical thoughts, placed in your head by charlatans, who were desperate to control a gullible, fearful, ignorant population.
  
  How can this nonsense ease anyone's misery?
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I was encouraging you by saying you are special, but you choose to be arrogant and rude. I have not written any nonsense. Why enter the forums to fight christians because you disagree? Your uncivilized behavior does not make any sense at all.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  You are getting off the subject. This is not about me. It is about the assertion that you have made. If it can't be proven to make sense, then it is...?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Good subject, good post, Woman of Courage.
  Too bad a couple of the usual accusers attacked it, and that hubless poster spammed it.
  
  Amen to your relationship with God. Blessings!
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If you are referring to me, I simply made a true statement.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks again Brenda. I knew there would be some interesting comments. God bless you.
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  recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  To separate god from religion is to cut the head off the snake, and neither part survives. It just cannot be done, creating a structured (real OR imagined) relationship with a god and expounding on it IS religion.
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  MINIMAposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Truly said recommend1. Religion is a set of beliefs, a faith and a means of connecting with the Supreme Being and that is the God. God is omnipresent and our faith , our beliefs connect us to him and we do so by contemplating on his teachings and thanking him for his unique creation. It is our faith , our way of thinking that God is the supreme being and this becomes our religion.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
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  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi W.O.C-
  How precious you are to Christ!
  
  I understand and agree with your statement.
  It is also my understanding that some will not agree ,and not only will they disagree ,but will seek to make YOU look unintelligent for believing it
  
  Its funny isnt it, one is judged quite severely for expressing their love for Christ- Why?
  
  And no ,they would not accept Christianity as being separate ,because then they would have to admitt their pride and arrogance in denying the truth and Lordship of Jesus Christ.
  
  Truth is God reigns ,whether anyone believes it or not
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Kiwi, You are a blessing. I didn't expect for everyone to agree when I started this thread. I am not ashamed in the slightest bit for my belief. Yes I think it's funny
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  recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But you are still not able to explain the very simple issue that without religion you would have no basis for your 'belief' - therefore it is impossible to separate the two as you claim.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ..But is possible.
  
  For example Christians dont need a building(Church) to have a relationship with God.
  
  Nor do they need any any man made establishment to have a 'Faith'
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Kiwi, Very well stated. Actually the church is in us. I don't know if all christians agree with that.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Probably pushing it a bit
  
  By the way thankyou for calling me a blessing ,that was so sweet
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You are welcome Kiwi.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Nice statement filled with so much ambiguity it's not surprising the world is in the present state it is.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You join a long list of people who blame God when they screw it up
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Really? Can you prove that I blame your god for anything? How sad that you would make such a claim.
  
  As far as I am concerned, you speak of a god you don't actually know.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ..Of course you would say that -based on your belief that we do not need God.
  
  No brainer there
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Again, you make yet another assumption. I don't have a belief that a god is not needed.
  
  It's proven plenty of people don't need a god to live their life and/or understand their life.
  
  How sad you do.
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  God is essential to all life.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Amen!
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Says you and your good book.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This statement is knee-jerk, religious regurge!
  
  ABSURD!
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  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Its not an assumption Cags, you have said many times you do not need a god to live your life.
  
  Correct?
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  yankeeintexasposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I truly believe that Christians forget that God is a very personable God! Christianity was never meant to be orthodox, but to a path to have a relationship with God through Jesus Christ!
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  yankeeintexasposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If religion is a system of thinking, and belief, and atheism is a form of thinking and belief than all atheists are RELIGIOUS!!!!!
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  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hey yankee
  
  Good luck with that theory ,and hey since I identify as Christian and not Religionists ,perhaps you are correct...about the Athiests.
  
  Then again ,dont they beleive in 'No religion' or Nothing' so the system is called what 'Nothing'...
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  yankeeintexasposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hee, hee! I think you are right!
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi yankee, I think you have made a great point. I find your statement very interesting.
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  Mikioposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Religion is all about turning inward and finding one's own orientation in life. If you have a relationship with God/Jesus, that's your religion. I sense that you just don't like having your religion (Christian faith) put into a box called 'religion.' It's really not that of a big deal. It's a designation/title. You don't have to be offended. Muslims think that they have a relationship with their Allah (The God). I am sure that they don't think their faith is one of the religions.
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  yankeeintexasposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It is possible that atheists can be put into the box!
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I wouldn't think there would be a box for people who simply don't believe myths are reality do you?
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This may be a double post, something went wrong on the first one.
  
  The point I made was that it may be hard to find a box for those who don't accept myth as reality.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  oh but the box is all around you.
  christians live supernatural lives of expecting supernatural things.
  Your reality based boredom theology plants some very definite walls around you.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You may think it is supernatural, I think supercilious is a better description myself.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  of course you do
  you failed
  what else are you going to see?
  and as for the box of hatred surrounding you, you can't see past that either
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You wish!
  
  I have had a very successful life filled with love daily.
  
  Love from my family and friends, success in my businesses and freedom to be myself.
  You know, all the things your beliefs don't allow and are jealous of.
  
  I would not change spots with you that's for sure!
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Where do you get time for that, cruisin the hub forum all day long.
  
  You think yourself wants you to be in here as often as you are? You are far from free. The two worlds you battle between.. uhuh.. sorry.... you don't even know what you are all about.
  Congrats on the successful life though, but remember there is no magical line of safety that people cross whereby tragedy cannot happen to them. I think you may find this out sooner than you think.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Is that a threat from you or your god?
  
  Both of you are as scary as candy floss! Get some love in your life! It won't hurt I promise, then you can avoid all the petty tiny minded put downs, stop cutting and pasting the psychotic rubbish from the "good book" all day long flogging your personal "truth" and get a life!
  I work online, and it takes very little of my time to deal with lightweight religionists.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What" Are you not envious of someone who imagines they speak for an omnipotent being but cannot explain exactly why such a deity always chooses the most ignorant of representatives?
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ...and the most humble.
  He alone speaks for god apparently.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yep! I seem to be having some problems with that.
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  Emile Rposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Saying you live a supernatural life doesn't make it so. That's the reality we all see and you know.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  and what does saying, i don't live a supernatural life do?
  doesn't change the fact that i do
  and to others becomes the foundation of the walls they build.
  
  what you see and what christians see are two different things, thank God and this is backed up by scripture.
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  Emile Rposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I have known many people I would call good christians. I've known profoundly spiritual people; both christian and non christian. I've never heard anyone make the claims I've seen you make here on hub pages. I stand by my post. The claims you make are not true. And anyone willing to speak the truth would agree.
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  DrMikeFitzpatrickposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  is it possible to see walls in others without having put them up yourself first? what we do not like about someone else, is simply something we have not loved in ourselves first? in that manner, all of humanity reflects back to us our unloved or "disowned" parts until we eventually cross that bridge-only to find another to cross.....in the end, love is all that there is, recognizing the form of its existance is the trick for us to appreciate the life we have created and the forms of its creation.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  is it possible to see walls in others without having put them up yourself first?
  
  Yes it is. First ya know what builds the wall and then you see if there is application and then realizing the application applies and the wall has been built, you then mention it. Nothing to do with personal experience at all.
  The problem with psychology is that it is all man based knowledge. Human conjecture. It has about as much revelence as the fact i am born in october and my horoscope says i'm scorpio.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Religion is defined as the belief in a god or deity. Are you saying that by havung a relationship with god that you dont require faith and belief?
  
  I thought christianity was based on faith. If religion is the belief in a god, and christians believe in a god, then christianity is a religion and christians are religious.
  
  I do believe the history or this old and tired debate, arose from yet another attempt of a religion to try and seperate itself from the crowd of other religions in an attempt to make it seem unique.
  
  It would seem that even theists are embarrassed about believing in a god? Why the stigmatism with religion?
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  OutWestposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Often atheists or agnostics have this notion that God has to be discovered through religion, but that just isn't true. And people who believe in God often have no religious affiliation. But it's one of those things that just has to be experienced.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Religion is defined as the belief in a god. If you believe in a god then you are by definition, relgious.
  
  How can you believe in a god and not be religious (believe in a god)? That is self contradictory.
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  OutWestposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Religion can be defined as a system of belief. I belong to no such group but I do believe in God and believe this God to be the only God that all these religions are speaking of. Does this make sense?
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It makes sense yes. You are religious in the belief in god sense but not the ritualistic, dogmatic sense.
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  OutWestposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What is my religion then?
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I dont know what your religion is. You never told me. Maybe it is a religion that is unique to you. How could I know what you havent told me?
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  OutWestposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What I've said is that I have no religious affiliation. And that it's possible to believe in God and not have any associated religion. What I wasn't sure of is how you could say that a person has to be religious if they believe in God.
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  Momma Miaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  My relationship with God is very personal. No church, no religion or any other form of structure is needed to believe in God. However I do have a question? Why are people here that believe religion is always connected with God....if they don't believe in religion or God? just asking :-D
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  recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This is the same question that WOC cannot answer.
  
  If you have a belief in a god that allows you to have a personal relationship - who told you about it all in the first place ? Religion is the ONLY place that promotes this belief therefore it is impossible to separate religion from your belief in a god.
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  Momma Miaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Good point! My grandma taught me about God. My out of body experiences validated some of what she taught me. I was in church too, However I did not find God there...just people...kinda like here...all having a view .....but God is an experience not anything a book can teach. At least that is how God has affected me. This is a great thread!! Hope you have a great 4th Holiday :-)
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  Tumbletreeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm perhaps a little juxtaposed to the line of thought, but can you experience "light" without being taught it's scientific properties? My point being (perhaps poorly made) is that some scientist think the concept of God or spirituality, a sense of it anyway, is hard wired into some people. I for one would be inclined to see the world through that lens, my sense of "reality" has always had what one might call a spiritual element of a god (perhaps the echo of my own consciousness), now religion gives me a framework to interpret that sense, but even if religion didn't exist I'd invent a framework for it, as I do anyway. I've my own private mysticism; which I neither completely believe or disbelieve in, as I do science, since science can't definitively say what reality is yet either.
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  recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Of course you can experience light without any understanding of it, every animal and plant does it !
  
  You are misrepresenting the 'hard-wiring' idea - there is an area of the brain that responds to ideas of spirituality, this is not hard-wired for god. There are also areas of the brain that correspond to movement, another for reasoning - and even writing and speaking are dealt with in different areas of the brain, but Shakespeare is not hard-wired there either !
  
  "if religion didn't exist I'd invent a framework for it, as I do anyway. I've my own private mysticism; which I neither completely believe or disbelieve in, as I do science, since science can't definitively say what reality is yet either."
  You might have ideas of spirituality, or other elements of the unknown, but it is hardly likely that it would include an invisible super being unless you were deeply into comic book heros.
  
  And the point is still valid, none of the people professing a god but no religion would know anything about their chosen subject without religion teaching them everything they know.
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  Tumbletreeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I still think your incorrect, because every culture invents an invisible super-being. Its the chicken an egg argument. You are arguing that religion must exist first for people to believe in it's tenets, I'm arguing people invent religions, all on their own; and with some surprising similarities. I wouldn't invent a super being because, I realize my conceptual framework of everything has got to be less than a bug's compare to the possibilities, but if I wasn't as abstract as I am, I could easily see how I would invent an invisible super being to explain some of the events in my life, or the world.
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  recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  and that invention would be a religion !
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  Tumbletreeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I never argue it wasn't a religion; though actually by the law it wouldn't be. To meet the legal standards of a religion, you just can't have a belief, or invent a belief, you have to share that belief with a large group people, or a traditional group of people. But a "rock" is an invention of language and the mind, is a "rock" a religion? One doesn't have to be taught religious beliefs to experience the world through similar view points, and who can say whether or not that experience has some validity to it; that just like our ancestors who knew nothing of the molecules in rock, they still saw it, though stars are perhaps a better example; anyways....
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Religion is salvation by works
  Spirituality is salvation by faith
  The two are completely different.
  Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
  how are people beginning in the Spirit?
  John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
  John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
  John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
  John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
  John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
  How is one born again?
  Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God.
  Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
  Works is not how much a person can do or how many checks are on their personal checklist. Oh this week i did not sin except for that one time... so God and i must be doing pretty good. Relationship is just loving him in spite of our failures and thanking and depending on Him to finish our walk where he wants us to be.
  Also, i can hand out all the fliers i want, but if God needed me on elm street instead and i missed what HE had for me there, my works are not what He wanted me to work at. So i by my own effort am trying to earn Gods blessing... when He simply had me do this one thing over there, but i missed it. Spirituality is not works based, it is faith based. Faith in Him. When we realize that we can do nothing on our own to gain acceptance into the promises of God and that our entire lives are a work that He does in us and through us, then we become so overwhelmed with love and appreciation that we keep our eyes focused on Him and hence we have the scripture.
  John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do: for what things soever he does, these also does the Son likewise.
  John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well we know what the father wants from the OT.
  What a sick hit list that is!
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  recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This is mumbo jumbo - to claim a 'relationship' with god or christ you must be taught what it is first - and the teaching is done by religion ! Posting as many irrelevant quotes as you like does not change that simple fact.
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  To have a relationship with God yo umust first meet Him. Same with any man or woman. You can't have a relationship with a man or a woman unless you first meet that person.
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  recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you Sir Dent - this is exactly what I am saying - to have a relationship with a god (real or not) you must first be taught about it - this is religion. Please try to explain this simple fact to WOC for me, she might listen to you
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  It really has nothing to do with being taught. You meet someone and a relationship either starts or it doesn't. There are times that the relationship is not wanted or sometimes it is a bad relationship.
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  recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And how does one get to 'meet' your god ?
  
  Of course you were taught about it, and the teaching and the material are religion.
  
  The only way anyone gets to 'know' anything about whichever god they choose to follow is because they are taught about it.
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Who taught the very first man about God?
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  the way is in my post that you don't believe.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You dont have to believe in religion to know what it is defined as. It would be like me saying that you cant know what astrology is if you dont believe in it.
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  Motown2Chitownposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  WOC, I can see what it is that you're trying to say, but I don't necessarily agree. Everyone who chooses to pursue a belief in God follows a "religion" of sorts. While you may have chosen to discard the rules and regulations of existing religion when you entered into your relationship with Christ, there are certainly things that you do and rules that you follow in order to manifest that belief on a daily basis. That is religion.
  
  I'm sure that what you're attempting to point out is that you are different from the "religionists" in that you do not attempt to push your particular beliefs on others by writing down or adhering to already written rules about what worship should look like.
  
  I believe in God, and my actions in my everyday life show that belief. My religion is the sum of those actions. I'm sure that, unfortunately, there are many who adhere to the "rules" of religion for their own selfish ends, but that doesn't mean that we can separate God from religion. There are, indeed, rules that govern every personal relationship, whether we admit that or not.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks Motown for sharing your perspective.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Fair enough, but if you place the words "Christian Religion" in google, for example, it comes up with almost 50 million results. And, if you begin moving through the list, the vast majority of those sites all say the same thing, that Christianity is a religion.
  
  Why would you see a problem with that?
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  Momma Miaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Christianity is a religion .... I can't imagine anyone having a problem with acknowledging that. But let's just see... lol..
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  Tumbletreeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I can see some people having a problem with acknowledging Christianity is a religion, if they think about it, because then it gets lumped into a category "religions," instead of "history and truth." So some people, true believers, don't want to consider their religion a religion.
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  Momma Miaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  O I guess whatever one chooses to call it is great , as long as they are content with themselves and their relationships ...including God. Great point !
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  Onusonusposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  i believe that the prophet Joel spoke by the power of God when he commanded;
  "Sanctify ye a fast, call a solemn assembly, gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land into the house of the LORD your God, and cry unto the LORD,"
  
  It seems clear to me that religion, is a gathering of Gods people for the purpose of fasting and prayer, to establish his church, and progress in his work for the building up of god's kingdom on Earth.
  To me this is a vital part of establishing a relationship with one's creator, to do what he asks of us in faithfulness and obedience to his precepts.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus is no god; if the Creator-God is separated from religion it will be just another version of atheism.
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Woman Of Courageposted 13 years ago
Maybe the atheists will finally see the difference. If not, all is well.
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Cagsilposted 13 years ago
Hey WOC, the concept of a god was in existence before religion was established. However, the concept was inserted into religion, as a theory and philosophy, so people wouldn't be afraid of the unknown.

The only people believe in a god/creator is because they don't understand their own life, because religion has set up the answers for them.

So you claiming to separate a god from religion is BS, more than anything else. Religion has dominated society for centuries and you making the claim to be able to separate the two is absurd.

Just thought you would know.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The pharisees had religion and could do nothing for the man outside the gate called beautiful.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  but then Peter showed up and said, "silver and gold have i none, rise up and walk". The crippled man was above 40yrs of age. He had sat at the main gate into the temple for 20 plus yrs. The pharisees and the saducees would walk by him every day, with the other temple attendees and no one could help the man. Peter, a disciple of Jesus, heals this man.
  When Christ died the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to botton, or from heaven to earth, or God to man. The tearing of the veil meant that all were accessible to God now instead of the high priest, once a year for the sin sacrifice. Christ was that sin sacrifice and an end to the old ways.
  Religion is man working his way to God - bottom to top - trying to please God to gain good favor, but in reality, there is nothing we can do to make God give us eternal life and his good graces. People cannot earn enough points to enter into what God has for them because there are simple not enough points in existence, there are not enough jobs to do, not enough works to be done... We ask God and He gives us and we are thankful and (eventually) love Him.
  Huge difference between religion and spirituality in Christ Jesus.
  Part of the problem is that if you go to a dictionary and look biblical words up they will give you the worldly definition, but the bible is not defined by worldly definitions, but the biblical definitions.
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Emile Rposted 13 years ago
WOC, I respect what you are trying to say. I don't know if I understand your reasoning. I think many here have vilified the word religion to the point that no one wants to lay claim to it. But, if you look at the definition of the word you cannot worship God without being religious. It's almost the nature of the word itself. If you go to church you are participating in organized religion.

I don't quite know any other way to look at it.
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think WOC is saying she is not a 'religionist', which is defined as excessive or exaggerated religious zeal, or pretended religious zeal. I do not think she is saying that she is not religious -- for you are right, Emile, she does have a connection to certain beliefs about a relationship with God,
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  Emile Rposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ok. That makes sense, but then it would follow that, by some standards, those that adhere strongly to their religious beliefs are religionists. Wouldn't you say?
  
  Not by the standards of those within a particular religion, but to those of us on the outside looking in. Many of the beliefs and practices are alien to me, so when I read them here it does come off as a form of zeal.
  
  I don't mean this in a bad way. I'm simply saying actions are perceived in different ways from different angles.
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well ... I wouldn't say it in the sense of excessive or pretended religious zeal. But if you are on the outside looking in, okay, I see your point if it is the same as, say, you love jeans so much that you wear them every chance you get so that it seems to others (not you) that you are an excessive wear-er of jeans. I wouldn't say though that you are pretending your zeal for jeans, which I think you are saying, Emile, that you are not thinking judging it in a negative way like this. Yes! I very much agree there are many different perceptions, depending on where people are 'coming from'.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Was Abraham religious?
  I don't think Jesus was religious?
  
  Was Lisa Marie Presley a member of the Elvis fan club.
  
  Too often religion seems more like a fan club than Gods family member.
  
  I think WOC was thinking something along these lines
  
  That isn't quite right either but you know what I mean.
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Based on what Emile has brought up, certain types of people *would* see Abraham or Jesus as religious, even if you and I do not.
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  Emile Rposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes. Abraham and Jesus were religious. They both believed in God. They would probably have been defined as religionists, by Ms. Dee's definition. Not the pretended part, of course.
  
  I certainly understand what you are saying, but it does not negate the definition of the words.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I wouldn't want to take on the authority of Mr Webster.
  
  But sometimes definitions do leave a little bit of room for adjustments.
  
  Lisa Marie probaby was a fan of her fathers, By definition does that mean that she has to be a member of his fan club?
  
  I'm not being sarcastic, Just saying that I think that there is a divide that has unjustly been filled by an agreed upon definition.
  
  But who agreed in the first place?
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  jacharlessposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  By implication no, they would not be at all religious.
  religious simply means a human practice toward the belief in something. ergo Theos, theology, theory, etc. Anything dictated in a ritualized form is religion. Religion can be expressed as scientific study or sensationalistic howling at the moon, even ohm.
  
  What Courage is implying is she is able to transcend those rituals by walking with Creator, as Adam did. If so, she -like Abraham, like Immanu El and a bunch of others written about- transcends traditional doctrine for (a more) genuine experience.
  
  Of course, that last note is speculation on my part. Because with evidence of the 'fruit' of the spirit from her, or anyone, I cannot conclude what that experience entails.
  
  James.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm glad you added the above part.
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes! Well articulated, James. What I hadn't been able to express.
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  jacharlessposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Ms Dee!
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  Emile Rposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  James, just to clarify. I believe the circumcision of Abraham's household was a bit of a ritual. The sacrificing of Isac was done in a ritualistic manner. Both at the behest of his God.
  
  Jesus himself set forth the ritual of the last supper. He was also a practicing Jew. I would consider his willingness to follow through with the sacrifice as a clear indication of his zeal.
  
  I would certainly prefer to agree to disagree on the definition of the word, as opposed to people claiming to walk with a deity. That's not even believable, without some serious proof.
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  jacharlessposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I am unable to thoroughly attest that Abram's actions were a form of ritualism, as both instances seem singular and succinct in nature. True, subsequent events followed. Was that his intention?
  
  Same question is asked regarding him [Jesus]. Was he really trying to establish a religion, a branch of Judaism. I believe reading something that it wasn't until 90 years later, that the leaders decided to organize the 'tribes of believing' and literally told people it was inevitable that they would be converted/baptized into the 'faith'.
  
  Seems at the time, a structure or order was defined. Prior to this, man was commanded only to walk with/in Spirit. One of the texts mentions the Spirit comes/goes as the wind, so no 'religion' is necessary (or even achievable by that walking).
  
  IMO, religious practices create division, create deities and excessive moral codes, that generally are common sense practices of humans (i.e. don't kill, steal, lie, cheat on spouse, etc). It also causing the crumbling of such structures by its very nature. Science and [titled] religions are 'grade A prime' examples.
  
  I am not sure he [Jesus] set it up as a ritual. I seem to think it was one of those "when you do this" remember things. So, if one day you are sitting with friends over wine and good food, just remember what was done. Don't worship it, demean it by cyclical practices (notably Catholicism) or bastardize it by making it a commandment.
  
  As for the deity, we seem cohesive, at least to me. Belief in a deity is completely cross with the entire purpose of believing. Ironic? Maybe. But believing in a deity/god, etc is equal to not believing in one. One voids the other, which tells me neither is valid. Rationally walking with Creator/Spirit, in this thing called faith (action of wisdom/logic v. reason/decision), is far superior to any belief. In fact, once such an event is reached, belief becomes redundant, if not obsolete.
  
  James.
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  Emile Rposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I would agree with you, in that I don't understand how any of christianity evolved from the teachings in the gospels. They sound more to me a way to connect on your own.
  
  I'm not sure that I understand the last part. It sounds as if you are saying some can transcend from believing to knowing. As if there ceases to be a separation and they become linked by the spirit. I certainly love the sound of it, but I would think anyone able to attain such a state would be able to provide proof.
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  jacharlessposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Precisely. And in doing so dissolves all form of necessity to know, to believe. Minimal proof is recorded, should the text be even in the slightest degree accurate.
  
  Such experience then removes Theos operations (equation and sensation) by any and all measures. Truth be told, man has dabbled in this concept, through transcendental mediation, yogi, secrets, electron microscopes to sub atomic particle accelerators, only to discover their own thoughts limit them because their thinking was not designed to understand but to do. Billions of shards of light processing understanding from the infinite intangible to the infinite tangible.
  
  Exceeding thinking is the reality of understanding, of spirit. Nothing else is. So long as humans have to search, are compelled toward or away from beliefs, their minds still remain in control. A mind -a unit of processing intangible-to-tangible.
  
  The term "A Relationship with [God]" can only be proved by the fruit of the Spirit. That fruit is found in ritual practice, textual reference/quotation or laboratory tests. In many respects that fruit can be seen and experienced as reverse of aging, reverse of illness, boundless strength, ability of multiple (if not all human dialects), ability to observe time yet not be effected by it, etc. Even (if one accepts it) complete and total lack of physical death, where the body and spirit become unified -fluid, one to the other.
  
  James.
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  Emile Rposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Um, are you saying this has happened, in our recorded history? Or, are you saying you think that, if one transcends, these things could be possible.
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  jacharlessposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, in prelude to my response, I will say this:
  Of the some 400pp here on HP I have dialogued with, a crowd of philosophers, theists and scientists offline plus just 'ordinary' people, none would consider me a zealot, spiritualist/guru, preacher nor terminal believer --and even less by the term of having a Relationship with [God] --at least I hope not.
  
  I cannot speak for anyone else by myself and immediate friends/family. That said, by personal experience, my answer is yes. In modern history. And also, yes, not if -but when- anyone transcends The Ism, these things are not only conceivable, they are possible and doable.
  
  The requirement, on even a minimalistic level, is conscious abandon of the ego --the mind- and everything in it that pertains to any form of Theos (religion, science, spirituality, etc) pro and con.
  
  James.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Jerami, I understand exactly what you mean.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Emile, Thank for respecting what I have freely said. I understand that everyone will not see the difference. We can kindly agree to disagree. I worship God in spirit and in truth. No need for me to be religious and follow self-made rules to worship and praise God. I don't know no other way to explain it.
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  recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  As you seem unwilling to answer my point above - perhaps you can clear up my confusion about your belief in a god but not in any kind of religion ?
  
  If you did not 'learn' about your god how could you develop a relationship with it ?
  
  If you learned about it, how was that possible without religion to 'teach' you ?
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  recommend, it's not that I am unwilling to answer your point above, It's just that you're going around in circles. I repeat once again, Christianity is about a relationship with God. Jesus wasn't religious. Feel free to disagree if you choose.
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  recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This is nothing to do with going round in circles or disagreement with any issue - it is the simple point that you claim in your opening post that god and religion are separate.
  
  You did not miraculously conceive the idea of god or jesus, you were taught it - so you cannot have one without the other !
  
  It is really a simple question, if you did not get the idea from religion where did it come from ?
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  Emile Rposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I would be more than pleased to agree to respectfully disagree. And, I must say, this thread has been a fascinating read. I'm glad you posted it. I never would have believed something so simple could generate such disagreement.
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  Momma Miaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  WOC You explained it beautifully! No need to conform to society and the rules that dictate to us.....being spiritual is more the word I use for myself, but quickly I add that my spirit is intertwined with Gods.... most def not some sort of religion. I think being atheist is a religion ...if there is meetings and discussions on the topic of God...albeit a topic of Gods non-exsistence.
  wishingUwell
  Mia
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks Mia I knew when I started this thread that everyone would not agree, but my perspective will not change.
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  recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What is the point of starting discussions where you will not listen to anything other than yourself and those who agree with you ??
  
  This is getting tiresome.
  
  You claim to separate your god from your religion - yet you would know nothing about any idea of a god without somebody teaching you - and that is religion. You are incorrect in your original statement which makes everything you say incorrect - as it is based on false premise.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  recommend, You have failed to understand my statement above, and have formed a false opinion of me. I am not forcing you to agree. For clarification, it doesn't bother me whether you agree or disagree. No hard feelings.
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  recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I completely understand your statement and understand you also. You claim you separate god and religion - and yet it is impossible, so everything you say is based on a falsehood - and if it is false why do you continue to say it ?
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That's your opinion. I have not once stated it was false. You are the one who has said it is false. Please stop twisting my words. I don't agree with you. Let's agree to disagree. I am not here to bicker back and forth. Have a Happy 4th of July weekend.
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earnestshubposted 13 years ago
Simply impossible. A belief in a god is religion.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Which is mans defination ,not Gods
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TMMasonposted 13 years ago
Shouldn't this be a discussion of, "being religious" -Vs- "organized religion"?
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not actually, in reality.
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  Motown2Chitownposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  TMMason, in essence, I think that's the actual point that WOC is making.
  
  I could be wrong, of course.
  
  But, I personally feel that anyone who believes in God and chooses to live out that belief does indeed follow a religion.
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  TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thats what I thought, MoTo. But I figured I would ask for a lil clearification, so as not to be making assumptions. You know what they say about that.
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  Motown2Chitownposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I do, indeed.
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Brenda Durhamposted 13 years ago
Oh good, that person's posts were deleted.
Rock on, Woman. Or should I say keep on worshipping the Rock our Lord?!

I agree we aren't supposed to be religious in the sense of ritual and etc. We're to hold to the doctrine that Jesus taught. But it is the relationship with Him that He wants and we have.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And, then why don't you?
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  TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually Branda, it is a relationship with God that he wants you to have, Christ preached the Gospel of the Kingdom of God, and God's glory, not the glory of himself or his kingdom.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If you read any of several passages, especially the first Chapter of the book of John, it will be clear that Jesus IS God. I can give you the Chapters and Verses of several if you'd like.
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  TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I guess we won't agree on this then. I do not worship Christ, he is my Saviour, I pray through him not to him, but I worship the Father in Heaven alone... remember that? Christ stated it plainly... worship none but the father in Heaven. And I do not need references... I understand your point and know where you derive it from.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I understand yours too.
  Always good to talk to you Tom.
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  TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You also Brenda. How have you been hun? And how are the lil ones?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The little ones are great and beautiful! Me, I'm still nursing my R.A. pain 'til I can see the doc and maybe she can straighten me out. ..or unless the Lord heals me outright. That would be awesome.
  
  Hope you're doing great! Am loving your political posts as always.
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  TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you, Brenda, and I am glad to hear the lil ones are well. I pray the Lord helps you with your RA, hun. Keep the faith.
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  Momma Miaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  My prayers are also with you Brenda! I Hope you feel much better soon!
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Brenda, I am praying that God gives you the strength you need to endure.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  we need to understand that also Christ spoke according to his diety and according to his humanity.
  Christ accepted worship
  Matthew 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
  Matthew 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.
  Matthew 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
  Matthew 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
  Mark 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
  
  there's more.
  God is not envious of the Son because they are one, even the same.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks Brenda I missed the posts that were deleted.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Wow, Now I have discovered the very first post on this thread were deleted. I actually reported it to Hubpages as soon I read the hateful words.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You do realize that you were the first post to this forum?
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Allow me to clarify. You were the first to post after I posted with attacks as usual.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There was nothing in my statement/post, that would or could be considered an attack. Please go learn history.
  
  My original post-
  
  Hey WOC, the concept of a god was in existence before religion was established. However, the concept was inserted into religion, as a theory and philosophy, so people wouldn't be afraid of the unknown.
  
  The only people believe in a god/creator is because they don't understand their own life, because religion has set up the answers for them.
  
  So you claiming to separate a god from religion is BS, more than anything else. Religion has dominated society for centuries and you making the claim to be able to separate the two is absurd.
  
  Nothing is an attack!
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Brenda Durhamposted 13 years ago
The Bible says the only pure undefiled religion is to visit the widowed and the fatherless in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.
Many people in many denominations do that, praise God!
Other than that, as Woman of Courage said, it's the personal relationship with God that's important. His Spirit is within those who believe on Him. Loving Him goes without saying, really, 'cause that's the basis for all of it.
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Woman Of Courageposted 13 years ago
Yes, I believe in God, but that doesn't mean I follow man-made religious rules. Christians are required to seperate their relationship with God from religious demands. Jesus came to set us free. He never intended for us to be bind up in man-made rules.
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  recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I understand what you are saying here - but without religion you would not know anything about what you believe. It is not possible to separate the two things.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Man made rules are laws and you don't follow them? Good to know.
  
  As for the religious laws you supposedly follow, then maybe it might be a good idea if you actually did, instead of claiming to.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  How do you know how W.O.C lives exactly?
  
  And even if you did ,are you her judge?
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actions are judged based on either moral or immoral. Easy enough.
  Yes, just like YOU are also. What part do you not know of your role in this world.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  My what ? in this world?
  
  The world belongs to God ,so its safe to say my role will be defined by Him.
  
  Get it yet ?
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, only because you and approximately 4 billion others seem to think so. Such a shame most of the world is deluded themselves.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sooo boring
  your opinion blah blah blah..
  say something and then prove it for a change will ya.
  
  its more than 4 billion when you include that this desire has been throughout 6,000 yrs. Israel found God, egypt had a god, babylonians had a god, rome had many gods, the japanese, chinese, have gods, 3,000 of em.. God is rampant upon the earth.. even the atheists here had a god. God is not some latent gene, its innate in man to want to find god.. call it what you will, spiritualism, nature, pagan, wiccan, spirit guide, angelism, occultism, black magic, white magic, voodoo, Buddhas enlightenment, transcendental meditation, out of body experiences, tarot cards, ouija boards, seances, diviners, familiar spirits.... if you were as all knowing as you think you are, you would know that it is not 4 billion and that that is a very low ball number - it's everybody everywhere, all the time - throughout history!
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Wow! How wonderful it must be to feel you have the power to speak for so many billions of people, both in the past and present. Fess up, BO! You are god aren't you?
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Nice sentence that i am speaking for billions of people both past and present, lets look at that shall we.
  I said:
  it is INNATE in man to WANT to FIND god.. CALL IT what you will, (AND THEN THE LIST OF ETHEREAL PRACTICES) spiritualism, nature, pagan, wiccan, spirit guide, angelism, occultism, black magic, white magic, voodoo, Buddhas enlightenment, transcendental meditation, out of body experiences, tarot cards, ouija boards, seances, diviners, familiar spirits.....
  
  So how is this speaking for others? Does not your head fit around that these practices try to tap into some source outside of themselves in an effort to bridge the gap between our plane of existence and another and if so what exactly have i said that is 'speaking for billions', Please enlighten me or i'm just gonna have to think you are bonkers.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know.....who made this quoted statement?
  
  "it's everybody everywhere, all the time - throughout history!"
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  bonkers gets the vote
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No admission of the quote, BO?
  
  I am not surprised!
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This response doesn't help your argument at all.
  
  In fact, it is the best argument against your profoundly insane beliefs. You have just implied that the concept of God is only in the imagination of humankind, YET you still continue to argue that YOUR imaginary God is somehow REAL.
  
  This proves that your delusional beliefs are utterly absurd.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  you get the same vote
  Many paths to God are imaginary. Vampires and succubus', terminators, science fiction, fantasy - the library and stores and movie theaters are ripe with countless and varied examples of mans imagination.
  
  God exists and how can you not expect their to be a proper way? Do all roads lead to your house? Did you not notice that in genesis other nations had their gods which were natural objects - sun, moon, rivers, trees. Why did they even bother to set these up as gods and weave fantastic tales around them? Rome had an expansive tapestry of gods, demi-gods, titans.. all warring and backstabbing each other.
  It doesn't make a case against at all, it makes a case for just what i said.. there is an INNATE need in people.
  
  The only delusion here, is your refusal to understand the obvious.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It's nice YOU NEED to be told how to live. So much for self-guiding. What a shame.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Direct answers to much for you ?
  
  Sorry will dress it up next time with lost of fancy dancy humanistic wording........not
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Apparently they are for you.
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, we are to take up His yoke and learn from Him, an easier burden; not the burden of religious ritual.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Mrs Dee, Exactly!
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  we are on the same Spirit wave-length, I'm thinking.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You got it Ms Dee.
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secularist10posted 13 years ago
"God" is a religious concept. Therefore to believe in God is to have a religious belief.
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Eaglekiwiposted 13 years ago
And W.O.C you reind:

Jesus wasnt too fond (actually he abhored) Religion, even more than the anyone on these pages ,which tells me a few on here, dont read anything of what Jesus said at all...
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  recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting view - I thought he said " on you I will build my church . . " whatever way this is interpreted or misinterpreted - it still means religion.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  lol
  are you serious about that statement?
  
  before you hastily answer that and i have to spend more time correcting you, lets run through it together shall we.
  Very famous scriptures:
  Matthew 16:15 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
  Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
  Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed are you, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood has not revealed it unto you, but my Father which is in heaven.
  Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto you, That you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
  There is some debate of exactly what 'rock' Christ was going to build his church.
  I accept the view of Peters confession. "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." because in keeping with scripture the church is built on Christ, in fact the whole NT revolves intrinsically around Christ. Christ is the head of the church. To endorse that anything Godlike is built upon a man is a recipe for trouble.
  enough for now.
  enjoy
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  recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The chances of a confused amateur like yourself correcting me is most unlikely. Especially when you contradict yourself continually in your own statememnts.
  
  There is nothing unclear in the sentence above from the novel, - Peter is the rock on which the christ character will build his church - THIS IS RELIGION and you all follow it in one strange manner or other, pretty much nobody following any of the actual advice or learning anything from the lessons - just using it as an attempt to gain some personal glorification.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  show me where i contradict myself so i may put a pin in your ego.
  I tire of your pomp.
  The only reason people like yourself exist in defiance of God is because you lack reading abilities. Christ is the rock, the cornerstone on which the church is founded.
  Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
  1 Peter 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believes on him shall not be confounded.
  1 Peter 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
  Ephesians 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
  Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body.
  
  guess i am not so confused anymore huh. Even an amateur is above the unskilled. If you care to look at context, the passage does indeed point to peters confession as what the church will be built on. Sorry but you lack the qualifications to tell me i am wrong.
  
  ... waiting with a pin......
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  recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  OH I get it !!! your Jesus told Peter that he is the rock on which the church will be built - but you disagree
  
  and you have no idea of my qualifications - but it is clear that yours are assumed only by yourself. If you think that copy pasting sh!tloads of biblical quotes from a ready made website is understanding then you have a long way to go brother - but brother is clearly just the title of your ego. If you thought less of yourself, and more of the christ you claim to follow, I might be able to take you more seriously as being at least a trier.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  have a nice day.
  and look up the definition of cornerstone
  
  thank you for your wonderful hub on how to use a Chinese toilet. Your qualifications in this forums topic are truly astounding. I do not copy from websites when its bible material i use the king james.
  
  forget the self justification -fabricated as i'm sure it is .. and try to sensible.
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Tumbletreeposted 13 years ago
Well, I can't say I'm well studied on the Bible, so I can only "feel" you on that one; however I do know the thing Jesus spoke the most against, in the Bible, is wealth, but all things evolve and the modern day image of Jesus wears a gold Rolex.
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Tumbletreeposted 13 years ago
Well, I can't say I'm well studied on the Bible, so I can only "feel" you on that one; however I do know the thing Jesus spoke the most against, in the Bible, is wealth, but all things evolve and the modern day image of Jesus wears a gold Rolex.
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Tumbletreeposted 13 years ago
Well, I can't say I'm well studied on the Bible, so I can only "feel" you on that one; however I do know the thing Jesus spoke the most against, in the Bible, is wealth, but all things evolve and the modern day image of Jesus wears a gold Rolex.
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Tumbletreeposted 13 years ago
oops
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  hehe.. i heard you the first time lol
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earnestshubposted 13 years ago
Where else is there a mention of christ? The bible is the only book I know of that insists it is the word of god, and christianity gets it's beliefs from that single religious tome.
How do you separate your faith from religion, when religion is the source of your faith?
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But that's the thing, 'religion' is *not* the source of faith.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No Earnest -Jesus is the source
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Which can only be found inside religion. What part are you missing?
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  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I get what God teaches ,so your opinion of me,or whether I 'get' what you want me 'to get' matters not.
  
  The world is full of philosphers and experts ,even some who percieved to be BUT
  
  There is only one God and He is God of them all
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Again, not surprising.
  BS!
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  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Incorrect.
  
  I have not missed anything , why have you?
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Locate anything about Jesus and his teachings outside of religion. I dare you.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ahhh so you require evidence?
  
  Proof of his existance?
  
  Right?
  
  His creation not enough for you ?
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  One word?
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  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Faith
  
  Out of curiousity Earnest how do you define your life in one word
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You define your life with the word faith. Boy do you have much to learn, but not likely willing to.
  
  The only word needed is purpose.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  purpose for what?
  
  Oh wake up each day , work,breathe,eat sleep ,then die?
  
  Boy do you have a lot of life to catch up on
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  To make the world a better place, which escapes you. Apparently, you don't.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  How does cutting a fellow human being down make the world a better place and then snide critism?
  
  Hey Cags Im up for a challenge as Im sure you are ,but quit the putdowns, just uncalled for.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Apparently, your perception is out of whack. But, that's not surprising either.
  I'm not putting anyone down. Fantasy is a delusion or didn't you hear?
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Cagsils appearance on hub pages is making the world a better place
  We can just feel the loooooooooooooooove.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, I don't require evidence. I asked you to provide anything from Jesus or his teachings OUTSIDE of religion. I dare you.
  No, I don't.
  Wrong, just answer the question.
  His existence as a person isn't proof of s@!t. He was human and to suggest he was anything else is mysticism, gone awry. But, nice try.
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Boy, are you deceived, Cagsil!
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If you think so, then YOU answer the question. I dare you....find anything Jesus taught or any of his teachings...OUTSIDE of religion.
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  By "outside of religion" I can only think you are meaning something that was not a set of beliefs or rituals. So, okay, how about "Lazarus, rise up!" This is a command for the dead Lazarus to do something. How is this, what you would call "inside" religion?
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Better yet find something that cagsil teaches in any other book
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  How can religion not be the source of faith?
  
  Belief in christ is a religion. It's called christianity, I know, I used to be one.
  The source of jesus is a source from religious belief.
  What is it you don't understand.
  
  Don't give me the faith bit again. It is not faith, it is called delusion through indoctrination.
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Belief what you will ... yours is a religion.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  his is a religion because he puts so much effort into it. His religion is based on no salvation by lots of work.
  christianity is salvation by grace and not works.
  
  He used to be one but he doesn't no nuttin except how to quote phrases from atheist sights and misinterpret verses... how can you expect that anything written on hub pages will be interpreted correctly?
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  SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  Faith is based on evidence. Though we cannot see all, we can see evidence for it. It is no different than a detective investigating a murder case. He gathers evidence to find out what happened. At no time did he actually see the murder.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, the faith you're talking about isn't based on evidence, but based on one deceiving themselves.
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  How so? Why isn't it *you* who is deceiving yourself?
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Simple. There is no actual need for a god, to live or understand one's own life.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Still harping on that one...
  Yes to live THIS life there is no need of a god
  BUT
  to live THAT other life there is a definite need for the God.
  
  You can have a pleasant life HERE and NOW but thats all you get with no god
  OR
  you can have a more abundant life HERE and NOW and FOREVER with the God.
  
  hmmm.....
  
  You can 'understand your own life' and PERHAPS make of it what YOU want
  BUT
  You CAN"T live the life that God wants you to live without Him.
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well said, SirDent! Though we are not actual witnesses to the event, there is the evidence. This is a good parallel.
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Eaglekiwiposted 13 years ago
Cagsil wrote:

Nice statement filled with so much ambiguity it's not surprising the world is in the present state it is

Me:

Not surprising? How so?
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Over 66% of the world is religious and/or has a belief in a god.
  
  It's not coincidence that the state of the world is the way it is for any other reason. Even those who have a religious belief, continue to manipulate others for greedy reasons.
  
  It's not a surprise. Those who need to belief, lie to themselves, so lying to other isn't surprising.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What is really buggerin the world up is not Jesus. Jesus said what He said and He meant it and lived it.
  What is buggerin the world up is Self - the thing you put so much faith in. Self is controlling the people. The big wigs at NATO, have self at the helm, the big wigs at microsoft have self at the helm in estimation MOST of the world has self at the helm. Self is the problem. Although your Self might not do something that somebody elses self will do, there is just no common ground or set of rules laid out and no motive to do anything commendable..."whats in it for me?"... but for money, most people would do anything, especially the right amount of money. Self is a very tricky manipulator, a very self ish entity. Self will lie when it sees some sort of gain, whatever that gain is, Self will commit murder, rape, infanticide, war, robbery, adultery, sell sex slaves, muster the bate in public, be drunken, etc... in some people. We do not know who because they have no title or label, it could be the person next door. No one wears a sign on their head and words come cheaply.
  Yes indeed, Self is what is killing this world and it comes in many disguises; smiles, promises, rank, income, hobbies, laughs and jokes and favors, etc.
  But christians..... that is another side of the coin.
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Eaglekiwiposted 13 years ago
Cags :Apparently, your perception is out of whack. But, that's not surprising either.

Me: Ya just cant help yaself
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Perception is more than you think, which why I said it is out of whack. It isn't an insult and for you to think it is, is negativity you bring to yourself.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I understand perception.
  
  What I dont agree is on your perception of me and my thoughts.
  
  Analyse all you want ,but at the end of the day thats all it will be Your analysis.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting how you have strayed away from my original question. Isn't that dishonesty?
  I am sure of it. To do so, would shake your faith.
  Actually, it isn't, but since you cannot see past yourself, it isn't a surprise.
  
  And, before you attempt to twist it on me, I've written several hubs and my ego is always in check. My ego doesn't control me, like yours does you.
  
  The hub I am talking about is 5 steps to build your character and you fail on the first step.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You are no different.
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  How is it *you* Cags have the corner on what is truth and what is deception?
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Putting words into my mouth now?
  
  I find it interesting that you don't seem to understand "truth" to begin with, but I am not surprised either. Many people lack the understanding about what is "truth", because they refuse to actually search themselves for it.
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Okay, according to *you* then, what is truth?
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Truth is Truth. It is recognized when seen. It is universal for all of humankind.
  
  I will use an example to prove it to you-
  
  Truth is INSIDE a lie. What happens when a lie is exposed for being a lie? What is left? Truth!
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  LOL! So you are of that religion. Okay, thanks!
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No religion, regardless of what you think.
  
  Life isn't a religion.
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, I didn't say what religion. You are of the religion of relying solely on your own understanding and knowledge as the all-knowing-one.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Untrue.
  
  Again, placing words in my mouth. I didn't claim to be "all-knowing-one". You said it, not me.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  nailed that one on the head!
  good goin.
  didn't take long for you to see whatsup.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  when a lie is exposed usually the atheist just goes to another thread
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  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh is it share 'what hubs we have written' time?
  
  Forums version of Happy Hour ? lol
  
  Cags opinion of my character : Failed
  
  Gods opinon of my character : Success
  
  Yea ,reckon I can live with that.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, just trying to help you get by yourself. Remember, YOU are you're own biggest obstacle.
  It's actually not an opinion.
  Not true. You wouldn't know what your god supposedly thinks and to claim you do, is psychosis in the real world. People have been committed to psycho wards for such thinking.
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So, you are a psychologist, Cags?
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  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting but another incorrect statement
  
  Also you are hardly qualified to make the diagnosis on here, much less the real world.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Cags you are wrong ,because your opinion of me is based on your opinion and NOT fact.
  
  You dont know me, you dont my family ,you dont know my friends. y past,my current situation etc etc You dont know anything much about me at all.
  
  And what you do know ,is what I have chosen to reveal ..
  
  Which makes your judgement of me null and void
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But, what you have revealed about yourself speaks volumes about what you believe and how you think, or the lack thereof.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Somebody feed this parrot a cookie
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I will not allow Cagsil to define who I am. Only God has the ability to do that.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, YOU are supposed to do that.
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So says your religion, Cags, of you yourself being the all-knowing-one who can define who you are.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  You define yourself by learning and loving yourself. If you don't, then you are no good to others.
  
  Edit: You create your own purpose, it gives your actions meaning, so other people know and understand you and what you bring.
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly!
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If you agree, then you obviously don't understand your own life. Plain and simple.
  
  Religion was born out of mysticism. Mysticism has been debunked as dishonesty(a lie).
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Cags, all-knowing-one, you did not respond to mine regarding your OUTSIDE of religion.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  My question was asked first. And, I already told you, I don't have a religion.
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ?? I answered your question about OUTSIDE religion. Is my example I gave up above in another part of this thread one of something Jesus said/did that was outside religion???
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  I bet you can't even define religion nor show that christianity was born from mysticism.
  And because mysticism is NOT of christianity of course it is a lie.
  
  Life is not about defining oneself and those who go about to do so a) Limit themselves. b) confine themselves c) take all the credit (and often fill up with pride). Christianity is ever developing into something new and of learning things there is no end. Jesus said, "except ye become like little children". From children, growth occurs and christianity is a life time of growing and knowing God. Life the way it was intended to be.
  This nimrod religion of self that you have cags, is really quite mundane not to mention it has some fundamental flaws nor is it as encompassing or freeing as you think.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Of course, Christianity can be shown to be almost identical with a variety of other beliefs and other gods before it, and those religions can be shown to have their roots in mysticism and shamanism. There's no secret to that at all.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  back it up for cryin out loud. You've been corrected too many times to just slink in and state something without evidence. Your opinion, blah blah blah... means little.
  how about you put some effort into the privilege of being here that you so easily abuse.
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yankeeintexasposted 13 years ago
Come now, you know that atheist are religious too! Instead worshiping God you worship science.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not believing one thing does not necessitate any other belief. It is about disbelief.
  
  I don't believe I have a pink unicorn up my rear end either. Is that a religion?
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  yankeeintexasposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, if that is your belief!!!
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't know that not having a pink unicorn up one's backside was even a religion.
  
  Still I guess it's no sillier than the others.
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  yankeeintexasposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree! Atheism is pretty silly!
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  not as silly as that example.
  If you believe there is no God, earnest.
  Is that a religion?
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  Another angry believer, slandering people just because they don't share his psychotic delusion. I'm sure your imaginary, hateful God would be proud!
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There you go slandering God and calling someone you don't agree with psychotic and delusional.
  
  does this sound rational to you?
  I hope you are proud of your imaginary perfection!
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Slander: An abusive attack on a person's character or good name.
  
  Of course not, how can one slander an invisible super being that only exists in your belief system?
  
  Then again, you are free to take to court anyone who slanders your invisible super being. That would be an absolute hoot!
  
  Of course, you won't do such a thing as you and everyone else knows there will be a couple of men with a tight fitting jacket of straps waiting for you.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  to slander: the act of slandering
  
  sound of the buzzer.
  do you have any highschool?
  either of you?
  I just wanna know. How simple a sentence. I need to write. so you can understand.
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Momma Miaposted 13 years ago
Believing is seeing, feeling and all knowing. Once one reaches that point ...the point to make only is that they aquire the knowledge to profess. I know God because I feel the magical and magestic light and force of positive energy. The modern day miracles in itself are awesome and the out of bodies I have had are only a small intake of what holds for my ...well... forever.
I never force religion or any thing for that matter....the proof is within each and everyone of us. Blind faith or just blinded?? No matter what others say....God is good and etched in my world ....as I am in Gods universe...an I am just a pepperflake or snowflake....just like the rest of Gods children
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think believing is just that. Believing.
  
  I know a guy who believed he was the king of England until he got well.
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  Momma Miaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Believing means to know. I guess you didnt know he wasnt well...lol Even if your knowlege is skewed.....one self believing is to fully accept your facts...whether you are incorrect in others eyes....and as they say...to thine self be true.... seems like you have it all figuired out.... kudo:s to you!!
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  recommend1posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Believing does not mean to know.
  
  No religious argument, just totally incorrect.
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  Momma Miaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No argument needed at all..... however what do you think the word believe is to you? Just askin :-D
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There are two kinds of belief
  a) belief a little bit: where one just mouths the words and doesn't do much about it or doesn't let it affect their life very much
  b) belief a lot: where belief drives you to do something about it and it does affect your life very much.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That's odd, my dictionary does not define belief like that at all, did you make that up?
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It's not made up and its not a definition - it's an example.
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RockerGingerposted 13 years ago
Religion is so general. God is not God without his history, the accounts of his miracles, how He created the world, etc. All of those things are religion. If you have a relationship with God, then you automatically have a relationship with the religion He created for us to follow.
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  Momma Miaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I so believe all you have wriiten here !!! I will add one more here...even if one does not have privy to all accounts of the written....God will touch and open eyes and hearts....to those open to see and feel Gods lite and wonders! You have an awesome energy and I look forward to reading your hubs.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God will open and eyes and touch hearts yes. It is his fervent work to draw all people unto himself that all might be saved. As to the written, He will bring them to his word, because his word is what helps the christian maintain their understanding of Him. God will also bring them into fellowship with other likeminded christians to strengthen them. God is not separate from His word. He didn't cause and write all that just to be ignored. All through His history with this planets inhabitants, His word has always been around. Torah first. NT for these latter times.
  
  It has been discussed before about how not knowing the scriptures will cause god or God believers to follow wrong paths. If we were to all stay at home and seek God; God will draw the thirsty unto Himself and then cause them to live His word, fellowship, love one another, study, prayer, etc. God does not move, contrary to his word or book.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What a psychotic delusion.
  
  And that my friend is not slander. It is the absolute truth. This is a whimsical delusion, brought on by rigid indoctrination.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  what else have you got besides your opinion?
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Cuz frankly, your opinion has become a broken record that one just wants to hurriedly remove the needle from the record and put a cease to that awful sound.
  We know all about your opinions and your literal and flawed interpretation of the bible, so how about you take a holiday and stop with the repeated noise.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  De-lu-sion(dĭ-lū'zhən) 3.Psychiatry. A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness:
  
  But it is certain that a deluded mind will persist in supporting it's distorted reality, contrary to any source that thoroughly explains what is REAL and what is not.
  
  This delusion is wasting your life.
  
  You have no salvation. Salvation from what?
  
  You're not going to life forever. You're gonna die, be buried, and remain DEAD!
  
  A 2000 year old book, written by ancient goat herders, has no information from the force that created the universe. That is a LIE...do you get it?
  
  Believing in such incredible nonsense makes beleivers say the silliest things, without even realizing how foolish they look.
  
  Like you, for instance. You have lost every debate in these forums, yet you, foolishly, stand here declaring victory, and truly believing that you have slain the wicked non-beleivers, and Satan...by resorting to childish personal attacks, and irrelevant nonsensical statements!
  
  What a sickness!
  
  Have a good day!
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  enjoy your delusion
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  In other words, YOU just lost, yet, another debate.
  
  It is apparent when you lose out to reason, you have nothing to say except--"have a good day," or some other irrelevant nonsense.
  
  Will you ever learn integrity and honor, or will you continue to let willful ignorance guide you?
  
  Go ahead and escape into your ego...where you can be superman.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  i say have a nice day when i decide that pursuit of the matter is fatigued.
  
  You say i have lost every debate in these forums, with no evidence to back that up. My perception is this:
  because you cannot understand the things that are written does not mean i lose, it just means you are ill equipped to be in this battle. Insults, ranting and raving are truly signs of defeat and childishness. Who does that better than you? So rather than have you break another blood vessel in that purple forehead of yours and save you another dent in the wall, i say, have a nice day.
  What you offer in the forums is a vivid example of what it is to be like to be caught between two worlds. One world fueled by your personal failure and the other world that fuels the fact that you cannot leave it alone. Most people when they fail something have a clean break from it, not spend copious hours, yelling and insulting everything that is connected with their area of unexpertise. They just go away and do not bother with any aspect of their former failure... unless they are just so bugged about it. So the next time you yell at someone or insult them remember its really yourself you are angry at.
  therefore did i say:
  have a nice day.
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  OutWestposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Are you saying a person cannot have a relationship with God without being religious? If you believe that our relationship with God is personal then why couldn't He? Humans have been trying to know the nature of God for as long as we've known of Him. That is religion.
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  Momma Miaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I have a great relationship with God.... I am not religious at all. My spiritual connection is my portal to God. Church is a constructed building, the stories in the bible may or not be true, The message in the ten commandments is about all I adhere to from the Bible. I am just another pepperflake in this universe, however I care about others self worth, self esteem and yes their soul ! Our journey here on earth can be as good as we make it, even when things are so difficult. My relationship with God gives me the strength to deal with much, the courage to face more and still have good thoughts, feelings and actions toward others. The world is bitter enough ....
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Religion is defined as the belief in a god. Are you saying you have a relationship with a god but you dont believe he exists?
  
  I am perplexed.
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There are several senses of the definition of the word 'religion'. One is a ritual observance of or set of practices. What if this is the sense of the word 'religion' Momma Mia is thinking of when she says she is not religious? She would be, and I think is, saying she does not have a set practice she follows, while still relates to God. She does not, however, follow a certain set of ritual practices in doing so. Therefore, she does not see herself exhibiting religious behavior. In this way religion is not defined as believing, should one thing of religion as defined as following certain practices, like for example, making a religion of fighting, say, abortionists, or some other group. It's all in how one defines the word 'religious', a word with several senses of meaning.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ms Dee, Agreed. Very insightful post!
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  she is an intuitive, medium, spiritual guide.
  Things jesus never taught.
  So when she says the 10 commandments are about all she does, that is true. She is not part of a church, does not fellowship with born again christians, she may study the bible but is not overly fervent about it, etc.
  Her relationship with a god is not the God of the bible or it may be that she is here in part because God is drawing her unto Himself.
  If God draws her, and succeeds, we will all notice the change on her profile.
  Good luck
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  Emile Rposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It would make more sense to say she doesn't believe in your interpretation of the Bible. Wouldn't you think? Or did your god himself inform you that only you are right, and no one else is allowed to think for themselves? If so, you might want to seek help for that.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  less time i think and more time reading the book you don't know much about.
  I can cut n paste scripture that says "there is only one God" i can paste the famous phrase by Jesus, "I am the truth the way and the door. No person comes to the father but through me". God did not sacrifice his Son so people can imagine their own way to Him. Wouldn't you think? I can reiterate what many christians have typed: Not all roads lead to rome.
  With all the affection i can muster, you should know what you are talking about before you talk.
  as for help... its all in Jesus.
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  Emile Rposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I apologize. I am not a fan of the laughing emoticon. It does come off as rude at times, but I found your comment humorous. As difficult as it might be for you to fathom, although I don't believe in your god, I am not unfamiliar with the text. Which is probably one of the reasons I tend to respond to your posts. You have a very bizarre interpretation of the entire message.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  if you are familiar with the text why do you ask the question that you did?
  do you recall, God executing diviners, channellers and those with familiar spirits? and if so, how can you laugh?
  You peak my curiosity when you said "entire message" which entire message are you speaking of.. christianity as a saved by faith and not by works.. or that salvation is a born again experience only through jesus christ or some other?
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  OutWestposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I totally agree.
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JDeAngelisposted 13 years ago
I think atheism is a religion
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, as I have said before the word is a religious construct.
  
  Not believing in myths as "truth" requires little more than common sense.
  No religion or other belief system required.
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  OutWestposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But can you say for certain what the "truth" is?
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Can you say, earnest, for sure what are myths and what are not?
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  1) And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive." (Matthew 21:21-22 NAS)
  
  Moved any mountains lately?
  
  Myth or lie, you decide.
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But, how do you know that no one in the world has done so or will not do so in the future?
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know.
  I would put it another way... would you live your life by it?
  
  I pink unicorn may appear at any moment. Should I worship it just in case it does?
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, I would not live by the hope of moving a mountain. Is this what you mean?
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That is what I mean. It was a lie wasn't it? Whoever wrote about what jesus said lied.
  
  The rest is self explanatory.
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, it was not a lie. It is misinterpreted by many people today.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "And I tell you, ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Luke 11:9-13 NAB)"
  
  How may one misinterpret this?
  
  It simply is not true.
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, it can be misinterpreted in *lots* of ways! Some may take this to mean, for example, that he meant we can ask for anything we want, the sky's the limit, and we'll magically get it. That is not the original intent of what he was talking about here.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it. (John 14:13-14 NAB)"
  
  So you can't believe anything it says? It all has to be "interpreted" correctly first? By what authority?
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  To know what to believe, it must be interpreted in light of the context it was written and also in light of other Bible passages related to it. It is by that authority. It is not by just reading a verse and thinking it means whatever first comes to one's mind. Just like any other historical document, we don't just read it without considering the context it was written in but we carefully look to the originally intended meaning of the historical document.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That is plain enough. So what do you think it means other than what it states?
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm replying up here to your question below about what I think it means, "other than what it states." (There was no "reply" option to click on below.) From what I understand the original intent was in this verse, Jesus is saying that if you believe I have the authority/power, then by my doing it what you request with that power I'll (or it is to) show how wonderful my Father is.
  
  So the focus is not his promising to do whatever we ask, but if we request him to show his power by doing whatever, he will do it because he wants to show how wonderful the Father is. The implication is that if our request is for something that will not show the wonderfulness of the Father, then it is not worth it for him to do. Something like that is what I think it means. Jesus is saying this in response to Philip not having connected the dots yet that Jesus is God the Father in the flesh. So Jesus is making the point in this verse that when he does something that only God can do it shows he is connected to the unseen God--so that whatever you request along the lines of who he is (he is God) and what he is doing, he'll do it. That is how the Father can be seen for who he is ... by putting on flesh as Jesus and doing whatever that shows his power/authority as God.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I have a problem with a promise that is not really a promise when most religions quote this as it is written to make their points.
  
  I do appreciate your genuine attempt to communicate your beliefs to me though.
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Good to know, earnest, that you appreciate it. By the way, I still understand it as a promise, but not the promise of what so many seem to take it to be. I think he is promising he has the authority of God, that he is God in the flesh, which is what Philip was asking for...that the Father be shown to them, because that "would be enough."
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Luke 11:9-13 is not true to YOU. It is very true to me and lines up with other scriptures.
  1 Peter 5:7 Casting all your care upon him; for he cares for you
  John 6:37 All that the Father gives me shall come to me; and him that comes to me I will in no wise cast out.
  Luke 12:28 If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?
  and more
  
  the flaw is in you earnest not the bible or God
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  earnest, That scripture is not speaking of a physical mountain. It's not a myth or a lie.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sorta hard to hold that position with this one.
  
  "And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it."
  
  How do you rebuild that one? Or any of the others for that matter.
  I don't have to interpret other books I read so that they say something entirely different to what is written. This is a complete nonsense in my view.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You can not read an interpret the bible like other books. Logic is good, but logic does not mix well with a spiritual book. I understand why you view it as complete nonsense. Hopefully, you're genuinely seeking answers.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  amazing...
  i have to apologize
  i did not know he was in such dire need of a lobotomy
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  OutWestposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think a person has to look deeper at these phrases to see the true meaning and intent. They are not to be taken litterally. It is a spiritual book and it is meant to touch your heart not your brain, per ce. And they are written by man so are you saying you would not believe in God because of something man wrote?
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."
  Seems clear enough.
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  OutWestposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  To you.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What would you make it say?
  
  And how about the psychology of the person who wrote it?
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  OutWestposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  First it would help to not take it out of context. And even having said that what is wrong with it? Prayer is referring to something spiritual. So don't ask for that new car.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Or food for starving children either!
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  OutWestposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That's right because we humans are supposed to take care of that. Just like the Haiti earthquake relief...we send food and supplies and the government steals it from their people...children and all.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  That answer is STILL a lie...and is completely absurd.
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  OutWestposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  How so...do you think there is no corruption in this world?
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  you are so indoctrinated, it is like talking to a halogram.
  
  You're still trying to defend your lazy, irresponsible, non-existent God. Stop blaming man for the outright failure of your God. IF your God is real, then He has, surely, failed the sick and dying children of the world.
  
  Your insane explanation shows the wretched depravity of your religious beliefs.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Your insane explanation shows the wretched depravity of your nonreligious beliefs.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You NEVER cease to amaze me.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I have no idea what you are talking about. Of course when one is delusional, neither does he.
  
  When someone gets angry because he can't defend his silly position, there is no telling what they will stoop to.
  
  Your posts are nothing but condescending drivel...and coming from someone who believes in a childish magical skydaddy, your condesending attitude is, obviously, just another aspect of the delusion.
  
  Funny!
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  OutWestposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I see we cannot post to the rest of the thread so I'll just post here. As for the "non-God" who you blame for starving the children let me ask this: If you do not belive in God then who 's fault is it that "children are starving"? And is it still not their fault anyway?
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The fault would fall on MAN, and other NATURAL CAUSES...such as draughts, locusts, and disease.
  
  It is also man who rescues the children from these horrible situation...or nature changes for the better...................BUT, your imaginary God has NOTHING to do with it.
  
  It has been thoroughly explained! So tell me why there is any need for your imaginary God to be given undue credit? Why???
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  OutWestposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God exists. He created all of this and provides everything. It is man's responsibility after that. There is an abundance of so many things but we destroy and let our pride, politics and so many other things get in the way.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Which god are you speaking of? There are so many to choose from. Is it the one who impregnated the 13 year old virgin or one of the other ones?
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  OutWestposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I am talking about God, The Creator of the universe. How man or religion interprets that is of no concern to me. Does it matter to you? Is it your way od discretting religion to say God doesn't exist. What are your motives for such a question? The fact is if you don't believe than how can you blame. It doesn't make any sense. So why are people starving? If you don't believe in God than you have to come up with a reason. It is probably the same reason for me too.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well said OutWest, When will they realize that God works through people? What a shame to blame God when one fails to be responsible for their own actions.
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  OutWestposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I guess it is easier to blame. And it is convenient for some to blame their non-existant God because it also keeps them from openning their hearts to the possibility. But how ironic to blame something they say isn't there.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If I want a new car I will buy one.
  
  The problem is that believing an invisible entity is going to do anything is just delusional.
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  OutWestposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Are you sure about the delusion? And you say invisible but that is only referring to our sight. Humans have other senses too. Maybe you should be looking in other ways and you would know He is there.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Myth and a lies are the same thing
  
  I move mountains every day figuratively speaking
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Is this just a joke promise from jesus then?
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  Tumbletreeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  A lies intent is always to deceive, though in a white lie, the deception my not be ill intended; while a myth's intent my be to reveal a deeper truth, create community, give a person a way of relating to self, others and life, change a persons psychology, and many other things; myths and lies are hardly the same thing.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  hahahahahahahahahahahahahah hahahahahahahaha
  did earnest just say that mountains had to be removed before that scripture comes true?
  
  now i know why you are out in left field
  .. somebody get the hubble telescope, earnest is lost again.
  
  unbelievable interpretative behavior.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The laugh was too long Brothery.......... A dead givaway,,, Losing your temper again are we?
  
  and the scripture says other than it is written according to you, as is does the whole book!
  
  Why don't you just write your version of the bible.......everyone else did
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  words just lack.
  How can you profess any mastery of bible knowledge and post the things you post??????????
  You must be bleedin bonkers, mate.
  
  wanna hear a funny. One day i tried to walk on water. Somebody said something about the scripture and i was at the river so i thought, Hmmm.
  and there i was puttin my foot in the river testing the river for buoyancy. Well i didn't work needless to say. Pastor calls me over and says "yknow that won't work". Why not? Well truth in fact there are many reasons why, physics is at the bottom of the list.
  a) pride would set in
  b) it would ruin my faith walk because i would always be focused on the 'day i walked on water'.
  c) it would lead to other things, perhaps more life threatening.
  etc.
  
  We simply cannot move physical mountains because God knows this sort of thing would affect us negatively. How many christians ministries revolving around healing actually point the way to Christ? Is not the focus on themselves? For a countless number it is. This is why God moves in the background always leaving room for question.
  
  Sorry for laughin. I didn't lose my temper. See you have to stop seeing hatred and violence in everything, its not healthy. Sure some of the stuff you say i don't let you get away with, but still as i said before, if you come back to God i will probably be your best brother. Cheers.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually I did not say anything. I let "the good book" say it.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  but you didn't let the good book say it. You copied it and pasted it and then commented on it. And your comment was another sloppy interpretation.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  except to believe that these myths are myths.
  
  gripless again
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  JDeAngelis, I agree.
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  OutWestposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It's just not organized.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Then you must believe that NOT collecting coins is a hobby. True?
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
wrote:
"And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it. (John 14:13-14 NAB)"

_=-=-------
And concerning that verse That is one of those words written in red.
And who was he talking to exactly?
========================================================
earnestshub ..
So you can't believe anything it says? It all has to be "interpreted" correctly first? By what authority?

- == --
me
If I was to have to tell the truth? I'd say by the authority of them words written in red.

======================================================
Me again

Actually if we can defrenciate between those black lettered words and the red ones, we might come to a different conclusion.

Edit
Just checking in beore I go fall down on the bed, Gdnite
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dixie28714posted 13 years ago
seperating God from religion makes no sense at all. Without religion there is no God and no God without religion. Both go hand in hand. How you choose to worship is your own decision. If you leave God out of religion what kind of afterlife are you looking to have? Example of living life without consiquences... ??

I do not call myself "Christian" because of labels and being in a category I do not want to be in, thats what kind of seperation I have. I choose to be called a "Child of God" because I know my beliefs. God is the alpha and omega. I would really consider rewording the topic or do some soul searching before considering seperating God and religion OR saying that because you accepted Jesus that makes it ok, cop out if you ask me.
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  jacharlessposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Dixie,
  
  And that sums it up in a nutshell. The reason -well, reasoning/decision itself- is precisely the problem. Reason is such a needy child. Necessity is coined the mother of all invention (although they never say what the father of all invention is. jeje). The invention of Theos -the sum/substance of supremacy, by invisible or observable means (meaning those expressions titled religion and science) is holding mankind in this state of craziness.
  
  Humans feel or think they need and because of that have invented pro or con G/gods. Gods are nothing more than concepts of reason. Reason cannot understand. It was never designed to understand. Else, it wouldn't be itself. Reason is choice (decision, believing, disbelieving).
  
  Consequence is the knowledge of good or not good. It is this very thing that went wrong from the beginning, yes? Needed to know. Needing to believe. Believing they needed knowledge to understand Creator and walk with Him, be like Him.
  
  Man worships their own mind by saying they have chosen correctly or another has not and therefore is in jeopardy of consequence. Love is living without consequence, or the knowledge of judgment (good or bad results from ones actions/decisions).
  
  This is why religion and anti-religion is so popular among the masses. They are still in the same madness mentality of choice, fear, hope, afterlife --else no life at all.
  
  And this statement exemplifies exactly what I am speaking of. It also exemplifies why the post-believers (now atheist, etc.) are the way they are and why 95% of the believing cannot grasp the real concept and purpose of the Work. To compensate, they now worship a man as a G/god. A man who by all expressions of his being and existence proved the work, what the real purpose of humans are and exactly what is required to achieve that restoration.
  
  Where is the true "Jesus" in humanity? Where is the Altruist Manifest?
  
  Yes, Belief AND Disbelief are cop outs, because both lack the courage and conviction of true love. Love without questions, without excuses, without judgment by what is seen, felt or heard. Love without conditions or consequences. That is beyond reasoning, that is understanding and the result of full faith.
  
  James.
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Eaglekiwiposted 13 years ago
Religion is man made traditions ,creeds,doctrines and laws.
Often traditions of many religious churches have long lists of protocols and ordinances.

Then theres the pecking order or system of whose who.

Jesus spoke out against such organised pompous self righteousness and He often chastised them publicly for their oppression and deceitfulness.

Christianity on the other hand ,while certainly not perfect (Is anything) ,draws its strength from the cross ,that is Jesus dying for the sins of mankind and reconciliation ,providing the bridge back to God..that is why Christ said:

You must be born again (Born of the Spirit-Holy Spirit) AND

No man comes to the Father ,except through me...so in accepting Jesus and what he did ,Jesus becomes the Lord ,Redemmer ,High Priest ,just like the Old Testament prohesied he would.

Many religious establishments are not born again and do not emphasis the words of Christ ,prefering instead to follow man made traditions etc.

I think this is what Woman Of Courage was meaning when she said what she did.

While some may say the concept is the same ,the actual outworking is not...
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That's exactly what I meant Kiwi. I am not going to keep repeating it. What I have said makes perfect sense to me.
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  Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It makes perfect sense to thousands of others too,even 2/3rds of the angels ,so considering those odds I reckon we indeed are on the right side of truth
  
  God resigns forever ,and ever -Amen.
  
  Hope everyone has a safe and happy week-end too.
  
  And to my American friends :
  
  Happy Birthday America
  
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  so lets see, 1/3 of angels fell.... how many is that... I will let you decide - but lets say one million. Adam and eve, cain and abel.. I would have to say that most of the people in the OT would be demonized. Look at the odds! Even a snake got one.
  Ya gotta wonder
  and i think a million is a small number. If it was a billion. and we have 9 billion on the planet.. one in 9 has a demon, better up that.. cuz some have more than one.
  And if God peed off a billion angels, so much for the stability of heaven being a wonderful place... when will the next bunch fly outta there.
  food for thought.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes the cross. The perfect example that we cannot EARN our way to Gods graces. He gave us the cross and we can never boast about our own efforts.
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Woman Of Courageposted 13 years ago
Have a Happy and safe 4th of July weekend everyone
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You too, Woman!
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awareposted 13 years ago
For me god has no religion. it needn't its misrepresentation. god shouldn't be pigeonholed . i think.
ray
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mikeb72posted 13 years ago
I believe it is if it becomes an agenda against the 'faith' of others, religion by definition has always sought to control others according to it's moral ruler within the boundies of the social enviornment. I say 'believe what you believe let others believe what they believe and be willing to analize why and discuss it with being dogmatic or defensive, this is how you share your faith without 'being' religous.
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brotheryochananposted 13 years ago
As to the koran and bible being different. The bible is very interpretive. It has many different writing styles. As i have said before there are similes, metaphors, ironies, metonymy, hyperbole's, personification, synecdoche, parable, allegory, types etc.

The koran has none of this. The style of writting is completely different.

So the bible and koran are structured entirely differently. The flow is not the same. The disciples of Christ did not write any of it. The koran comes into being 600 yrs after christ and teaches a completely different set of rules with a sacrificial Son.

Obviously bible beats koran in every area.
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Seek-n-Findposted 13 years ago
Dictionary Definitions--

Religion: a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Relationship: a connection, association, or involvement; connection between persons by blood or marriage; an emotional or other connection between people: the relationship between teachers and students.

Metaphor: A relationship with my husband/A relationship with God VS a religion about marriage/ a religion about a god

Relationship--I have relationship with God. I have relationship with my husband. I kiss my husband and say hello and I do this often. I love my husband. I love God.

Religion--I can learn about God. I can learn about what a husband is. I can study relationships with spouses and learn about rituals based on relationships (such as a kiss and a greeting). I can know the definition of "love" and understand how to apply it to a relationship.

Conclusions--It is different to learn about a husband than to have one. Studying relationships is different than being in a relationship with my husband. Learning about rituals couples might have to communicate love is different than kissing and saying hello to my husband and coming up with our own way of communicating love. Knowing the definitions and meanings of love is different than loving my husband in a real relationship.
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earnestshubposted 13 years ago
Imagine being thought bonkers by brothery Randy...

Oh the shame!
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You should know.
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  earnestshubposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I do know, as does every other person gutlessly attacked with inane unrelated nonsense!
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  all your responses are unrelated
  and i am sorry for that
  you think you'd be able to do better
  
  39. The wearing of long hair by men sanctioned
  Judg 13:5/ Num 6:5
  This was the vow of the nazarite. A nazarene vow was a vow taken and during the expanse of time of the vow the person was not allowed to cut their hair, drink strong drink or touch dead bodies.. although not all of them apply at the same time.. these were choices, all, two or one.
  Samson was a nazarite, couldn't cut his hair, although he did touch dead bodies.
  John the baptist was a nazarite..
  The wearing of long hair by men condemned
  1 Cor 11:14
  1 Corinthians 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
  
  So how is this condemned. shame is not the same as condemned. Chemistry speaking, and this is the shame talked about, not the shame a person should feel when they do something wrong, but chemically speaking, women have 6,000 approx hairs on their head, depending on nationality and the oil in a womans hair goes to the ends (too much washing can dry the ends out however) and a womans hair is thicker than a mans. The hair of a woman is much lovelier to look at.
  Mans hair, however is pretty much the opposite. And long hair (not all men of course, but most i think) looks shabby because the oil goes half way then stops, men have thinner hair and less 4,000 (on a bigger surface area than a woman) Of course these are generalities and in some cases we may find a man with lovely long hair.
  Contradiction #39 in flames at the bottom of the pool. (kids stuff)
  
  but this is the same as the shell fish question you did not answer.
  Do you think having long hair makes a person any less of a christian? Does God punish christians who like to have longer than normal hair?
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Still no answer just another gutless one liner and an stupid laughing face.
  waiting....
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Al Baconposted 13 years ago
I haven't read any of the posts you mention because I just joined here but I see a problem here with this whole area. Religion is not, or should not be at least, something that is pursued but rather a search for facts about that which you believe in and a coming together with others who share your beliefs. The term religionist to me means someone more concerned with the religion than the worship, like perhaps the person who goes to church on Sunday and acts like that gives him the right to act any way he chooses the rest of the week. Remember that some of the biggest Mafia gangsters were regular church goers. Religion is a means of reaching out to God and Jesus and to separate religion from worship is to not enjoy the company of others who feel the same as you do. That being said, I see no problem separating the religion that is shown on television on Sunday lead by a preacher living in million dollar homes with a million dollar airplane asking for donations in return for a blessed prayer cloth he will send you in exchange for a sum of money, and the religion practiced in a small church filled with those who feel love for their God and for each other. Religion is a means of expressing love for God and leading a Godly life and if you see a religion which makes it necessary to chose between God and Jesus - or you can substitute another name if you believe in a different path to God - then that is no longer a religion but it becomes a cult instead.
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Seek-n-Findposted 13 years ago
Oh, how I do wish we could all post our opinions and listen respectfully to one another without it getting so "ugly" in these forums! Isn't that one of the reasons these forums exist? To see what other people think? We don't have to agree with one another. It makes me sad to see how many of the topics when it comes to God, religion, etc. turn into word wars. Regardless of who has the "best" answer to this question, I would want to say this: God is love. If you believe in God, I encourage you to aspire to speaking what you believe is truth with grace and rooted in love. Nobody will be won over by anything other than love for love never fails. And if you don't believe in God, I encourage you to still aspire to speak what you believe is the truth with grace and rooted in love. I do believe there is truth and there is non-truth. But each person does have the freedom to decide for themselves what they believe to be true. If you claim to be a follower of Jesus, I encourage you to walk as he walked. He spoke truth, yes, and He had great power. But He was also humble, compassionate, and He respected people's free will. I hope we can all continue to have these discussions that are such important subject matters with the understanding that not all will agree and that's OK. Let's each share what we believe and do so with honor and respect for others' freedom of choice. If this has offended you, I'm sorry as that is not my intention. I simply would like to be able to read posts in which people talk about the issues and refrain from personal attack as it really does no good.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Guess we forgot about how jesus spoke to the pharisees and the whip incident in the temple and about how we do not have the godhead dwelling fully inside us.
  Some people reap what they sow, others will not listen to bible scripture, others don't care and only seek to destroy.
  Just live with it. Its all good.
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Jonathan Jancoposted 13 years ago
Religion was made by humans to distort and remake reality. It has nothing to do with God. Therefore religion and God are eternally separate.
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  OutWestposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually the history of religion was that it tried to explain the things we do not understand about our world. Even cave drawings depicted these things and the belief of a higher power from thousands of years ago.
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  Jonathan Jancoposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  A higher power does not mean God, necessarily. And a being that cohabitated amidst nature with man certainly wouldnt be the Source of all creation but only a part of it as each individual is.
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  OutWestposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God has many names but his role is the same. The Creator of everything who is a living God.
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  Evolution Guyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Really? What cave drawings are these that show this nonsensical belief? Politics and Religion are relatively recent inventions.
  
  I take it you have never seen any cave drawings and simply made this up to defend your beliefs? Like it says to do in the bible.
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  OutWestposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Armstrong
  
  Here take a look. The book is very well written too.
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with you.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You obviously haven't read the story very well.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
We forget everything Jesus said till it fits in with what we want to talk about.

Till then it don't have any meaning in and of itself does it?
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  Evolution Guyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with you for once Jerami. I have never met a real Christian who actually behaved the way they want to be treated. It is a nonsensical belief system that no one actually follows. Only when they want to fight about wot jesus said does it have any meaning for them.
  
  Surprised to see you repeating what I have been saying for ages. Are you coming around to a new opinion about why it causes so many conflicts?
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SilentReedposted 13 years ago
The denial of God's existence is a distrust of the universe.The non-believer honestly believe that this world is an accidental creation of exploding suns, a place of terror and death. He or she believe that man is essentially an animal endowed with more cunning than the rest of the animal kingdom.Institutional religion is also to be blame for encouraging childish misconception of "God" that fails to stand up in times of stress and crisis.Hence so many are unable or unwilling to affirm Divinity through faith alone.Emotional conflict in early childhood also form the foundation for latter rejection of a "God"..."Don't try to convince me that there is a Deity who watches over me with love".Vanity also plays a role why some adduce reasons for their brand of atheism,Hanging their disbelief on the intellectual peg of Darwin and Haeckel
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I do believe this is a place of terror and death for many who reside here, both believer and skeptic. You cannot convince me otherwise.
  
  Which one of the gods do you follow? Is it the one who impregnated the 13 year old, already betrothed virgin whose offspring supposedly was sacrificed for your sins?
  
  I never could understand why it was such a big deal for the baby's daddy to sacrifice something he could get right back whenever he wanted it. Yep, sounds like a good role model alright!
  
  Or was it another of the old illiterate goat herder myths which caught your fancy?
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  SilentReedposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What has the belief in "God" have anything to do with religion ?
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "What" or "why"?
  
  Most religions have at least one god.
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  SilentReedposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."~ Karl Marx
  Communism then turn around and made Karl Marx their "God"
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Communist are you? Or merely a fan of Marx?
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  SilentReedposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Being interested in Marxism doesn't make you a communist. Likewise being interested in religion does not mean your mind is close to other possibilities of how mankind came into existence.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I have no problem with anyone being interested in religion as I've studied many myself. But accepting nonsense as reality does cause problems for some who allow themselves to believe things which have no basis in reality.
  
  Jim Jones followers believed god wanted them to poison their children. Innocent people were murdered by zealous christians in Salem Massachusetts. Belief in religious leaders and old myths have caused much horror and suffering in this world.
  
  Yes, religion is an interesting subject to study. But nothing to place any sort of faith in unless one knows about all of them. Have you chosen your own particular deity?
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  SilentReedposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Religion is like any other belief systems. Try separating the teachings from the actions of misguided zealots.Should we condemn the idea of democracy just because of some corrupt politicians? There must be some validity to these religions if they have endured the test of time otherwise they would have long been discarded into the dustbin of history.
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  Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh really? Care to clarify?
  Untrue, simply because your statement speaks for ALL non-believers, without knowing anything which they know(knowledge and experience, and discerned wisdom). Any moron who tells you that an exploding Sun created the Universe, should be given directions to the nearest psychiatrist.
  Untrue, yet again. Humans maintain a higher level of awareness(consciousness) than animals, with regards to their own existence.
  Of course it fails. Apply common sense is all that's needed.
  That's because "Divinity" doesn't actually exist. It was a man-made concept.
  Right! Common sense wins out.
  Atheism is the flip-side of the coin of Religion. If religion disappeared, then so would Atheism.
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  SilentReedposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  How high up the level of awareness have we come. Can it be scientifically quantified and measured or is it also a man-made concept?And your "awareness" of the non-existence of "God"Is it from direct knowledge and first hand experience or base on second hand information or indirect knowledge?
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LesbianMechaposted 13 years ago
Religion only exists because a long time ago, people needed simple solutions to why things exsist. Now we are smarter, and have advanced technology in science, and yet we still cling to those barbaric ideas. Do we still think the earth is flat? Without some form of god or ruler, or idea of a higher power, there would be no religion.
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  SilentReedposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Would you consider the people who build the pyramids less smarter than you? With the technology available to us,what do we do? build bombs and weapons of mass destruction to obliterate humankind many times over. So I ask the question again, how high up the level of awareness have we come? I'll take wisdom over "smart".
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  Evolution Guyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  We have not evolved much in the last few thousand years that is for sure. Forcing slave labor to build the pyramids is something to aspire to in your opinion? Go look at Dubai.
  
  We are at least attempting to improve in certain areas, but there is a small minority controlling a lot of things that affect our society. It does not make sense to fish the Tuna and Cod into extinction but it looks as though we are going to do it.
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  SilentReedposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If I am not mistaken the pyramids where not build entirely by slave labor.Archeological discovery have unearthed entire villages where artisans and craftsmen lived with their families near the construction sites.The great wall of China have more buried bodies.
  At least we are in agreement about how far humans have involve and therein lies my confusion %-) Dubai is being modernized with slave labor? Don't worry about the Tuna or Cod.They'll still be around long after the extinction of us "smart" humans.
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  Evolution Guyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes - Dubai is being built by slave labor effectively. Disgusting what is going on there. Labor is flown in from India or Pakistan, they hand over their passports, are driven out to a labor camp in the desert where they are fed a small amount of food and bussed to the work sites or a cramped apartment building. Dozens have died in fires because they try to cook food in their wooden huts. There have been riots and beatings by the police. But - they did built the Burj Dubai and almost kill everything in the Gulf withe the "World".
  
  The Pyramids may have had artisans living on site - but the labor that dragged the stones in place was owned. Just like Dubai.
  
  The Blue Fin Tuna is almost gone. The Cod will not be far behind. Once the species reaches an unsustainable level - there will be no more.
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  SilentReedposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The subtlety of my comment was apparently lost to you. How clumsy of me.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Did the pyramid builders believe lightening and thunder was caused by static electricity? Did they have several gods they attributed these phenomena to? Knowledge means much in understanding the world. Superstition means everything in misunderstanding it.
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  SilentReedposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The pyramid builder's belief or "superstition" didn't build the monuments that we see today. Their cold logic and mastery of the building science did.So give them the credit that is due.And if you think the "knowledge" we have today have made us smarter just goggle dumb things people do
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  OutWestposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Just because we understand the physics behind something like static electricity and lightening doesn't mean we created the "phenomenon".
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No one said we created the phenomena, but unlike the ancients, we do know it is a natural occurrence and not something caused by an angry deity.
  
  Many ancient cultures worshiped the sun because they didn't know what it was. This is what I refer to as "misunderstanding" natural phenomena. Unless, of course, you think those ancient people's gods were not as good as yours.
  
  You forgot to answer the question previous to my last post.
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  OutWestposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But they had the sense to know it was beyond our doing. And I think the presence of mind to know it had something to do with The Creator. Our understanding of God changes as our civilization changes.
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