Jesus Saves!
He came to earth a mere mortal to sacrifice Himself shedding His blood for our Salvation. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ. You must be born again.
Using metaphors without understanding them I see. What else is new for the religious folks.
I don' t see myself as religious but as righteous. Righteousness freely give through Grace from Jesus Christ and His sacrifice.
Righteous? Oh, so you're above others. Good to know you speak so highly of your self. Maybe you should check on your ego sometime.
No you see it is not ego at all. I don't say this about myself but the
Word of God. He says we are the righteousness of God once we give ourselves totally to Him. You have this right as well. This is not a club of partiality but open for all who will receive Him.Those that except Jesus Christ as their Lord & Savior are the righteousness of God in Jesus. Righteous because we have right standing with God through the redemption of Christ that washes our sins away.
Everyone is free to this free gift of salvation- All.
So holy than thous must not apply since it's an invitation of grace and mercy for all- worldwide who will say "God I accept Jesus as my Lord - so I can be cleansed from all sins and directly come to your throne of grace in Jesus name."Has the rapture arrived and I missed the trumpets ? this is pure babble. Could you put it into English and leave out the speaking in tongues part please.
recommend1 - I was thinking the same thing. The Bible is a metaphor and heavenbound is simply reciting/repeating the metaphors perhaps without truly understanding them.
heavenbound5511 - would you put this into your own words for us?
and eat again! The starving non christians are the problem, god provides them with everything they need, and they just don't have enough faith to get fed.
Horrible heathen starving people are the problem!
They are the devil's children sent here to make god look bad.hillarious
and a bit mental
must be sunday for you
Come to Me
25At that time Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. 26“Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. 27“All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
28“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29“Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. 30“For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” Matt 11...
http://biblebrowser.com/matthew/11-24.htmAlways funny to see the religious quoting scripture without truly understanding or knowing the metaphors used within it.
His Sheep will know His voice, and our voices will not be silenced even in this wicked generation. Great job posting scripture, the Word never returns void.
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one"--Romans 3:10
yes there is not a person who is righteous, but once we received Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, He makes our hearts white as snow, as the scripture says, He will cleanse us from our sins that will enable us to hear his voice through the Holy Spirit. True believers of Christ can be righteous, but not true their physical might, but it will be through the grace of the indwelling Holy Spirit who convicts them to do the will of God.You both agree that wiping out mankind is cleansing? Your biblical god is the worst mass murderer the world has ever seen according to "the word"
Which is it?
Your majik book says that none can be righteous - now you claim True Believers can be righteous?
I think you mean "self-righteous."
Maybe You mistook the meaning of righteous of the above statement cagsil. In my own personal understanding based on my personal relationship with God, being righteous is keeping yourself HOLY. At least keeping yourself Holy... Holiness is what God wants us to become to be called Children of Him. God loves us all. That is why he came to redeem the world, not for the few, but the world. What we need to do is to accept Him as our personal Lord and Saviour and everything will follow as a process.
That still doesn't change the fact that those who "claim" "holiness", always come across as being better than others. So, my statement stands, regardless of what you might think.
Secondly, I cannot help that the gullible are the only ones who seem to think that "divinity" is real?Hello Cagsil! I appreciate your persistence. I can't force you to get away of your shoes and put on mine. As far as I am concern, I do not "claim" holiness. Because I am not holy in the first place. At least I am trying to become one whenever possible...
Nice day ahead!
Oh, so you're saying that I should try walking a mile in someone else's shoes, before I make comments with regards to them?
Unfortunately, experiences for humans are the same, however, perceptions are not always the same, which is the difference. You may attribute specific things, as being holy or part of divinity, but apparently it comes from not knowing any better.
But, I certainly hope you try to enjoy your nice day.experiences for humans are the SAME?? seriously? you've had the same experiences as everyone else? wow, talk about self righteous. Your ignorant comments are not helping your argument. You don't want to believe in anything because you don't want to be held accountable for anything. That's okay...free will and all. Good luck with that!
I am sure that is only your reaction. The old testament showed a pattern of the shedding of blood, howbeit animal blood, In the NT christ shed his blood, howbeit human blood. Without the shedding of blood there can be no atonement. The animals did not take away the sins of the person they only covered it, hid it, because they were animals which were sacrificed, only a human could rectify this situation because he was human, therefore God humbled himself and occupied flesh to teach what was important to Him, salvation, which was the primary message of Jesus. His primary work to defeat sin in the flesh by shedding his blood for atonement for all who applied the shed blood, this is done through faith, and through the one prayer that dominantly gives its own proof, the sinners prayer. Those who claim to be righteous are indeed righteous and those who claim to be holy are indeed holy IN GODS EYES if not in their own eyes, nor in the eyes of others. This is why christians, no matter how tainted their walk is will not be judged at God the fathers judgment - the white throne judgment but will appear at the judgment seat of christ.
Christianity is not difficult to understand. It is not all metaphor and those who unlock the deep metaphorical meanings are the only ones smart enough to get the hidden secrets. Christianity is plain and clear. We do not need to master our third eye, or study many forms of yoga or sit on a hill for 3 years, we do not need to open history books, philosophy books and study everything from hard pertinence to near pertinence. Jesus says, believe on me and repent and sincerely try to follow my ways and His sheep will hear his voice and He will know them.
INDOCTRINATED, WHIMSICAL, MINDLESS REGURGE!!!!!!
Can you share with me what exactly do you mean?
I was raised in the Pentacostal faith. I was taught this same imaginary stuff. After growing up, and leaving the church, I realized that this is pure whimsical fairytale-like nonsense.
But when I was "SAVED" I would regurgitate these same types of mindless, statements...purely from Pentacostal indoctrination.
SORRY!!!No don't be sorry. I see you speak from the heart. After experiencing the love of God in your heart how could you walk away from that? I would be totally lost without Him.
You sound like you would be better off without me having to explain that to you.
It would do no good at all.
Praise Jesus!No matter what has happened in your life you must believe that God loves you and His Son, Jesus Christ loves you.
You are HOPELESSLY indoctrinated.
I mean, to the point of being almost like a robot. All you are doing here is stating childish, whimsical, fraudulent nonsense that you are regurgitating from a primitive 2000 year old book...And you have no idea who actually wrote it!
You have been challenged from several credible hubbers(who have studied religion) but you go right on spouting this nonsense, as if you are in a trance. OMG!!!
From a psychological perspective, this rigid delusional mindset is frightening!
BTW, God does not love me, or anybody, because God is IMAGINARY!Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord!
No wonder your beliefs cause so much hatred and ill will.
Ignorant, uneducated people making threats will - always - cause a fight.And statements like yours promote ... peace?
I think you just caused a fight by saying what you did.
trade this mote for your beam!Yes. Please stop making threats and then no one will argue with you. See how that works? See how - it is you that makes the threat and me that asks you not to? You start it. You.
I just stated the facts. You are clearly ignorant, have demonstrated a lack of education in any number of subjects and are making threats.
All I ask is that you stop making the threats. Why do you continue - when I have explained why this causes ill will and fights?
Educated people don't make comments like you just did. That shows a real lack of social grace EG. My comment was not a threat but a bold statement from the Word of God.
Sorry - you are not speaking with some backwoods hillbilly here. Perhaps if you changed your tone instead of claiming to be speaking for God?
You have no authority. None at all.
Social grace? How does that apply here? You are talking utter nonsense and claiming to speak for a god? What social graces do you expect exactly? Correct social decorum really dictates we should have you locked in an insane asylum for your own good.
This is why your religion causes so many conflicts. People like you demanding respect for speaking utter nonsense. Always has caused conflicts - always will do.The authority I have is through Jesus Christ. He lives in me and by mearly speaking His name I have authority. Your comments certainly don't take that away from me or any other christian for that matter. My beliefs are opposed so much because people don't like to hear the truth as it tends to step on their toes a bit.
When completely debunked, this is how delusional believers respond.
They have no answers to their imaginary nonsense, but they, arrogantly, go right on regurgitating this foolishness, as if there is some sort of magic in these stupid words from their 2000 year old book written by primitive goat herders.
Naomi, it appears that you did not come here to discuss anything. It appears you came here only to declare your delusion. You have not shown any evidence for your statements, yet you continue to regurge one deluded statement after another. it is apparent that you don't understand that the inherent fraud in your religion is causing you to react this way.
These are just LIES!!! Nothing more!!! No matter how well meaning you are. Pathetic!
and yet this is the same old thing that you say over and over. Your experience however badly it failed does not give you the right to tell others their experience will fail like yours did. The foolishness that you regurgitate, as if there is some sort of magic in your words, is not the common ground or end result of others peoples experience.
She did come to discuss her statement but your mindset can only argue with it and insult it. It is apparent that your failure is causing you to react this way.
sorry you failed and failed miserably, worse than miserably, horribly. Faster than a much too heavy bird trying to fly with weak wings. Crashing and thrashing and lashing out because you couldn't become what jesus wanted you to become and surprisingly now you are haughtier than the God who supposedly failed you. Overcompensation i think.
Since you couldn't do it and can't do it and won't do it, just forget about it. Post your last post and have a nice life, free from the past failure and just press on toward that great nothingness that awaits you after you exhale your last breath.
live long and prosper
have many good days.
rest in peaceFor a post that was not intended to create a discussion there is certainly a lot of discussion going on. Not once have I insulted you intentionally though and not once have I called you a liar. Apparently my faith in God is quite disconcerting to you and that amazes me really that litle ole me and my BIG faith has that much of an effect on you. Your true spirit is showing.
Why do we need saving? I thought God was perfect. How can perfection create something less than perfect, like humans? Why did God require mere humans to murder his kid before He would forgive us? Couldn't He just forgive us without the drama?
That is a question that has been asked for centuries. Jesus freely gave His life. He was not forced. Before Christ a lamb or animal was sacrificed to bring atonement for sins. The law or its sacriments did not abolish sin. Jesus offered Himself who knew no sin for the world.
You can ask that question to the creator Himself if you dare. Or you can search the scriptures for your answer to this question you are pondering.interesting point. I have always wondered why blood has to be shed. Blood has many interesting qualities, one is that it cleans the body of toxins another is when the blood is drained the creature dies, and others properties as well. But why shed blood at all? I think this is looking at the situation backwards. The real question is, What are we going to do with the animals we kill to eat? With Gods people the sacrifice was used, they ate the meat. 2 birds with one stone. Perhaps another train of thought could be that all this sacrifice and ritual observance kept them busy and kept their minds focused on God - a constant reminder.
God did not kill his kid to forgive us, he killed his kid that Jesus might break the power of death - resurrection. John 3:16 describes this very event.
For God so loved the world that he gave his only son that whosoever believed on him should not perish but have eternal life. If we look into the OT we see that God forgave His people of their sins lots of time, he gave them ample room to repent, but when they crossed the line, they perished. There is so much that Jesus did on that cross before and after his death that makes the cross and christs death the most important aspect of christianity. One main facet of his death is the end of the OT dispensation and the ushering in of the next system.
Its not so much drama as His death lessened the drama. Can you imagine killing your own dinner at a communal kitchen scenario? All the bloodshed that 2 billion God followers would have produced over 2011 years.
Curious...If no one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ...wouldn't this mean that the Father saves and Jesus just does the guiding?Scorpion - this is how I understand it as well. The Bible is a guidebook of how to live a good life, using love as the ultimate standard/marker. Jesus is the guide which leads us to the implicitness of what underlies all that is - love. I believe the great spirit, the greatest spirit, is the spirit of love. Some call this God. The word holy implies what is better or best, above all other.
I believe that indoctrination interferes with true understanding - the understanding that we are all one with the same spirit, though some stray to the negative side. When we all come together in love, we will have reached the state of Nirvana, or pure love. Not in our lifetime, but each of us will attain a new level at intervals, so there will always be the poor and the seekers, the further enlightened and the earthly masters.
I also believe that Christians and those who follow a good, loving religion are at least on the right track provided they are not judgmental. With an open mind, they may also find the path to truth and the awareness that we can all be one with (God) and therefore can be (God). But not yet.through .. as in a tunnel.
More scripture than just this one verse needs to be applied to understand what this means.
No fair, why does Jesus always get the lowest prices? Damn him and his immaculate discounts!
In all seriousness though can you tell me what Jesus saves people from? Because I have yet to hear an answer that makes a lick of sense.Jesus rescues us from spiritual death. He rescues us from the curse of the law. Read Deuteronomy 28: 15-58 This is the curse of the law and with Jesus blood shed on the cross He freed us from this curse if we accept Him in our hearts and believe that He is the Son of 'God and He died on the cross for our sins and once we believe in Him we will have everlasting life. John 3:16. We are saved by Grace. We do not earn it . IT is freely given.
Glad to have my immortality confirmed!
I became a born again christian many years ago!
Gave it up when I learned how to think logically again, and that's why I am now proposing to christians that they give up the christian gig and get properly educated instead.
Sounds to me like someone sold you a bill of goods. Satan tried to do the same thing to Jesus. So your suggestion as to what we should all believe is?
Well we could start by being honest. Why would I be sold a bill of goods and not you for starters! Smarter than all non-believers are you? Know your bible better do you?
Open to debate with peer reviewed empirical evidence and scientific method as opposed to myth are you?
I didn't think so.Try believing in yourself and guiding your life. Right now, the only thing you are doing is perpetuating the hoax of religion and showing you don't actually understand your life.
Neither one if you have offered up any thing that would be better than what I have in Jesus. I do believe in myself and I believe in God. Work on someone else as much as Iike you two I won't change my mind.
or read any threads, follow any links, reply to any discussion with other than goddunnit or learn new things.... yes I know how it goes.
Yeah your link to simon magus and apollonus was about as effective as your posts concerning contradictions.
Wanna tell me where gravity comes from?
Again, I've said it before. You don't know what you're talking about, unless you've managed to learn each metaphor Jesus used in his parables. And, if you had, then you wouldn't actually believe in a god, but would be a master of your life.
Sure, you believe in yourself, just enough to believe in a god. That's not saying much.
I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm trying to make you more self aware that you are not actually guiding your own life, because, like Jesus said- you won't know any better because of religion.Goodnight cagsil and thanks for caring!
Naomi's Banner--I like how you are handling these posters who only want to stir things up...
You've got a peace inside of you that's easy to see, and more folks should be like you.
God Bless...TamCor I try to understand that not everyone chooses to believe the Word of God as I do. That is their choice. God gave them that option. I don't dislike them. I know they are feeling just as strong bout the way they believe as I am about the way I believe. I do get exasperated sometimes but I love them just the same. They mean me no harm personally they just don't happen to agree with my message.
What god?
Secondly, what makes you think that every person that participates in these thread is actually speaking about beliefs or opinion? There's something called knowledge and wisdom(truth), and facts, which people do talk about.
There's very little truth in religion or even a religious belief based speech. Most of it is based on something that was debunked decades ago and that would be called "spirituality".
Spirituality is solely based on mysticism and mysticism was debunked in the 70-80's as being intellectually dishonest.Cagsil I ask you again so then what do you believe?
I hold very few beliefs. I've learned and am of the understanding that beliefs are not to be solidified, because change is inevitable.
I don't spread beliefs I do hold, unless you're a close friend or a relative. However, if you would like me to share one belief I am presently holding, then I shall.
Here is one I don't mind sharing- simply because it doesn't matter whether or not, it comes true. I believe the Boston RedSox will win a World Series this season. I've said it since the beginning of the season. That belief will die only if it doesn't happen.
If you're looking for a belief, based on a religious or spiritual view, then I hold no belief whatsoever, due to the knowledge and wisdom already obtained.You disappoint me
I was prepared to watch you have the same conversation with her that you had with me. I was looking forward to seeing it from the outside...Hey Melissa, it's not over with yet. See the post before that one.
- Good, I thought you were going all soft on me. Want some popcorn?
Well then, this should be interesting... *grabs a bag of popcorn*
You asked... You aren't going to like it, but you did ask. I had him explain part of it once. It's actually quite enlightening and while I didn't agree with some of it, he is definitely of a philosophical mind. You might try reading a few of his hubs. Broadened horizons are always good. Until then...
*munches popcorn*
Actually Mellissa I have read one of Cagsil's Hubs and plan to read more of them when time permits. I really am quite busy in my life. I find Cagsil a very fascinating person so far. You can thank me later....Cagsil. Ha!
This comment is for you Cagsil. Who made the decision in th 70's and 80's that spirituality should be debunked? Funny I was there and I don't recall that at all?
The way I see it if you go through life not believing in anything then your exhistance is worthless and for naught. Now that is not to put you down as I think you do believe in something. maybe you don't feel comfortable being as bold as myself and putting it out there for all to critique and attempt at tearing it apart and that is okay really. I have a brithday party to go to for my grandbabies so I will talk to you all later. God bless!I appreciate the comment(thought).
It's not a "who" it's based on the collective knowledge known at the time. And, with the present day knowledge available, it's continued to be supported as intellectual dishonesty of the individual.
I'm sure you are alive, but whether or not, you were aware of the conflict between mysticism and reality at that time? Is another story.
Untrue. You must start with a belief, which runs until you reach enough knowledge to obtain wisdom(truth), then it becomes known and is no longer a belief.
Yes, I have beliefs, very few. However, I know more than I care to know and yet there's a lot I don't know. But, with that said, I'm not one to be manipulated by dishonesty(lies). And, I didn't think you were putting me down. You just don't know what I know and apparently haven't learned or obtained the wisdom I've come to.
I have no issue with people wanting to try to rip apart what I know or discerned as wisdom(truth). I do my best to be honest with myself about what I know is truth, which many do not, because they delude themselves, due to ego and fear.
I hope you enjoy your party.
Thank you. He does every day of my life!
What an inane dialog. Preaching nonsense and then congratulating each other for ignoring reality.
What is the point of starting a fight to tell every one what they MUST do and then claiming righteousness?
It always causes ill will and conflict. Is that what you mean when you say "love?"
Isn't god powerful enough that he really didn't need to send his son to die? He is god, he has all the power in the world. I don't understand why he had to make it so dramatic. If i am writing a book, i decide what happens to the characters. I can edit and delete the ones i no longer want. Doesn't god have these same capabilities?
God loves mankind. He wants us to choose Him. If He does as you suggest than our relationship with Him is forced. That is not a true relationship. He desires us to desire Him.
So does god have a divine plan or do we have free will? "Thy will be done?" I'm not saying he has to force us to love him but he could ease our burdens just a hair. I would do anything in the world for my kids to make life easier. Why doesn't god feel the same way about us? What about people in other countries who never hear of god? Do they go to hell? They can't choose him if they don't know of him. And he sure isn't introducing himself to strangers.
Get the book all your answers are in there.
He does ease the burdens but he also, at the same time, seeks to do an eternal work in us. He is preparing us in our lifetime, for eternity. If i need something i give the situation or object to God and wait to see what the outcome is, it doesn't get any easier. Things get harder when self wants something now or when self wants something that will hurt their spiritual walk. Gods hardest job is not dealing with sin, but dealing with peoples self. This is where the religion of 'understanding self' as a gateway to God falls short of Gods requirements, because is not all about ourself but about Himself.
Other countries who never heard of God. Since there is no hell, no they don't go there, suffering forever to those 'innocents' would be unjust and God is not unjust. Under either dispensation of God, OT or NT we see that there are those who know God and those that don't know God or more precisely, know the God of the bible. Perhaps this is why God is bothering to have a 1000 year period of rule on the earth, to tie up some loose ends so to speak. Thank God the bible is spreading around the world and many who had no chance before will get a chance. People who have nothing more often than not, have greater faith than those who have lots of stuff.To answer Robet12..God is introducing himself to others by way of missionaries. People go traveling to spread the new to those who don't know about God.
If there's a person on this whole planet who doesn't know that other people believe a god exists? Then they should take their head out of the sand and clean out their ears.
There's absolutely no rhyme or reason for people to go around telling people about their beliefs, so as to convert them. That's just idiots meddling in the affairs of other people's life.
"Jesus rescues us from spiritual death."
That's a new one on me, unless spiritual death is code for Hell in which case I've heard it and refuted it before. Why are people in danger of spiritual death? Why would God create a system where the default after people die is to go to Hell (spiritual death)?
"He rescues us from the curse of the law."
God set up the law though right? I thought God was the same yesterday, today and forever... so why did he change his mind about the law? Furthermore Jesus states that not a letter will pass away from the law in Matthew and that he came to fulfill the law not destroy it. If the law is what puts folks in danger of Hell why did God help Moses set it up in the first place? Seems like you're admitting that God made a mistake.
"He freed us from this curse if we accept Him in our hearts"
From a curse that he put on us right? What a nice protection racket he's got going, set up the souls to fall into spiritual death and then demand worship and adoration as payment for "saving" the souls he put into danger himself.
"We do not earn it . IT is freely given."
Except that it costs you your autonomy, it's not freely given if in order to get it you have to change who you are completely and submit yourself to be a slave to this Jesus fellow. Having a Turn or Burn (or in your opinion "spiritually die") system is hardly loving.
As for not earning it there are numerous passages which show God/Jesus judging mankind by THEIR DEEDS rather than just whether or not they accepted Jesus (Revelation 21:8 for instance), so the Biblical jury is out as to that issue."Jesus rescues us from spiritual death."
Spiritual death is not hell. Man is flesh and flesh is carnal prone to sin and to believe in what it sees, hears, touches, tastes and smells - physical evidence, even science. Jesus said:
"John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." (speaking of His death on the cross)
"John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
There is a difference between the flesh and spirit. They are in fact, opposites. Jesus died to bring us into the Spirit of God.
"He rescues us from the curse of the law."
God gave moses 10 commandments. 5 pertaining to God and 5 pertaining to man. Not that much demand. Later on God showed them how to worship Him and serve Him. The law pointed out sin but did not give his people power to overcome the sin and the law became a curse or an albatross. Keep off the lawn, but what do you do, you want to step on it, right? You get my point. The law was just the law, there was no power in it, it did not make men overcomers it made them doers of works. This is the first dispensation.
"He freed us from this curse if we accept Him in our hearts"
As stated at the beginning, with the new dispensation, the NT, came power, the power to change lives. Gods spirit in his people.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
"We do not earn it . IT is freely given."
Salvation is freely given. All we need do is open our mouths and enter into it. God gives this opportunity to everyone, without charge, free, just speak the words:
Romans 10:9 That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
What the christian does after salvation, the sinners prayer as i like to term it just because this kind of formality "gets the ball rolling", determines the quality of their eternal life. That part is not free. God does not just want to bring people up to a level of niceness but he wants also to take all people, even the nice ones, up to his level.
Rev 21:8
pertains unto the Fathers judgment, Gods judgment - not christs judgment.. these people being talked about are the unsaved. All the saved are judged by christ, for better or worse. All unsaved are judged by God himself.
"Romans 14:10 But why do you judge your brother? or why do you set at nought your brother? for WE shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."
I will need a scripture of reference as to your statement, "as for not earning it, there are numerous passages which show God/Jesus judging mankind by their deeds."God gave moses 10 commandments. 5 pertaining to God and 5 pertaining to man. Not that much demand."
God gave Moses 10, but he gave the Israelites several hundred, including prohibitions on eating shellfish, a man wearing anything that "pertains" to a woman, and cursing your Father and Mother (punishable by death). It's true that in Exodus 20 God sets up what are traditionally called the Ten Commandments however it's worth nothing that in Exodus 21 God directly sets up slavery for the Israelites.
"The law was just the law, there was no power in it, it did not make men overcomers it made them doers of works."
So what you're saying is that God's first plan failed miserably. Explain to me how its possible for a perfect being to fail. It doesn't seem logically consistent with the modern trait of absolute perfection attached to this God.
"Gods judgment - not christs judgment"
God and Jesus cannot disagree on something AND be part of the same being, unless God suffers from a major case of multiple personality disorder. How can a perfect being disagree with itself?
"I will need a scripture of reference as to your statement"
Matthew 25 starting with verse 31, also I already mentioned Revelations. There's also 2nd Corinthians 5:10. Matthew 16:27, etc. The Biblical jury is out as to whether it is faith, works, or some combination of the two that we will be judged by.Than God's plan failed to take into account man's propensity for failure. That still counts as God failing. It is not logically possible for a perfect God to produce imperfection thus either God exists and is imperfect, God doesn't exist, or a perfect God does exist but is not the creator.
There was always that chance that man would fail. I certainly won't try to disect God's mind or second guess why he did what he did. I believe he wanted to give man choice a free will which is what makes us a higher species than the birds, insects, and other animals. We have a mind that has the ability to philosophize, choose right or wrong, etc. He could easily as our creator made the decision to force us to do whatever he wanted but what kind of relationship would that be?
however it's worth nothing that in Exodus 21 God directly sets up slavery for the Israelites.
Its also worthy to note that exodus 21 are judgments not commandments . God is handling problems that the hebrews are having. Notice in verse 5.. And if the SERVANT shall say, I LOVE MY MASTER.... hmm, the way you make it sound is like opposite to this verse. Slaves treated badly do not love their masters. As i said before the hebrews did not mistreat their servants and every 7 year they were set free... what other nation set their servants free?
So what you're saying is that God's first plan failed miserably.
I did not say that at all. Gods first plan did what it was supposed to do. It put mankind in a position of choosing Him if they wanted to or not.
How can a perfect being disagree with itself?
I said were there are two judgments, one of christ and one of God .. and you come back and say... how can they disagree.... What i said has nothing at all whatsoever to do with disagreeing. God wants to judge the wicked and Christ will reward His sheep.
Thanks for the scripture references.
In God we cannot earn salvation - that is a gift - we do not 'work' our way into, pardon the term, heaven. But if we do nothing then we are unprofitable servants (matthew 25:30) James 2:14 onward, says it best.
Spiritual death is simply a misery of the soul, the opposite of which is pure love. Learn to lead with a loving heart and your eyes will be opened to a lightness of spirit. You cannot die physically but you can make your life a misery. This is the death from which the metaphor of Jesus saves us. 'He' is trying to show us how to live in our spirit.
B.S. if jesus was real how can he be called a mere mortal. supposedly he could heal the sick with just a thought, feed thousands with one fish and loaf of bread etc. saying he gave his life is a joke if the fables are true. the guy supposedly died and came back to life. yup, that's a mere mortal.
Where gave you been there are lots of people who have died medically and through prayer offered over them in the name of Jesus they were raised from the dead. There is nothing my God can't do.
- This is one of the reasons it is difficult to take Christian claims of anything seriously. Statements that fly in the face of what everyone knows to be the truth completely undermine your credibility. You can't post fantasy and expect anyone to believe it.
Presumptive, for any Holy Spirit filled believer KNOWS what we speak of the be truth, so your presumption about 'everyone' is merely your opinion, and frankly those who deny the power of God and His Holy Spirit are a minority, albeit a highly vocal minority, but nevertheless a minority.
B S. I don't know one Christian foolish enough to lay claim that there is proof people have been raised from the dead. Saying it, does not make it so, and no one need pretend that it does out of courtesy.
Isn't there some prohibition against lying? I would think a bald faced lie would fall into the category of sin. I suppose that would make this thread a sinner's den, since christians within it flaunt the sin without repentence.
Where's this spirit you lay claim to when we need it?Honestly my dear you really don't get it do you. Sad really.
Actually, maybe you should look in the mirror?
- . I don't know why but I like you cagsil!
I noticed you posted a second post to point out a spelling error. You do know you can edit your post after you've hit submit?
And, as to me not getting it.I do get you and aquasilver. I understand the born again philosophy. I shake my head at it. I think of it as a shallow faith. I'm so sorry that you are in need of fabricating stories in order to have faith in the unseen.I can't edit on my smart phone or at least I haven't figured out how yet. Lol
The one think I dislike more than anything is dishonesty and I do nit practice it and I ask again please do not me a liar for I do not post to benefit myself these forums do not mean that much to me and I certainly would not compromise my relationship with God to do so. I am not a liar please do not insinuate I am.You should still be able to edit. I would think. I'm on a droid at the moment and still have access to the edit button. You might have to hit more beneath your post.
And, if you believe what you are saying is true, I honestly believe you might consider changing churches. Someone is taking advantage of your good nature if they have convinced you that people are raised from the dead. It just doesn't happen.
I realize you've been convinced that the world would deny it, even if they knew it to be true. That simply is not fact. We'd be very interested and would rejoice at such a discovery.This is why discussing things with you is impossible.
So the ressurection of christ is yet another part of the bible you omit
Elijah and the raising of lazarus also.
The pharisees even believed in resurrection.
Mark 12:18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; ....
This makes me sad U seeThis is not an historical discussion. I have never argued, nor will I argue, whether the New Testament happened or not. To insist that ignorance perpetuated in this day and age is validated simply because one believes it happened two thousand years ago is foolish. To lay claim to doing miracles oneself is insanity.
Anyone who quotes scripture to backup claimed miracles today, with no proof that it actually happened, is living in a fantasy land. Anyone who attempts to convince others to believe in unverified miracles is attempting to take advantage of them. There should be laws against it. Either to protect the insane who are spreading this, or the innocents who will be hurt by believing it.As Jesus would say, " Oh ye of little faith ". I have not personally seen anyone raised from the dead. I have seen many miracles however. the hands laid on them did not create the miracle. The name of Jesus did. The disciples also created miracles by the name of Jesus.
My son brought his friend to our church who had a bummed knee that had been injured for about a month. He went forward for healing and was instantly healed. He is a believer to this day. Just because you have not personally experienced miracles doesn't give you the right to call someone who has and does believe insane. I assure you I am very sane. I am not foolish with the exception of letting people goad me into a carnel reaction from time to time. In that respect I can be foolish at times. I give into the flesh by taking offense and resonding before I have a chance to think it through.You know, there is a huge differences between being raised from the dead and believing a bum knee has been healed. I guess you can't see that difference.
You can call me 'of little faith' all day, if it makes you happy. I won't take offense, because I realize we are talking apples and oranges. I do not doubt the possiblity of the miraculous; but I think it degrades the concept to need them at every turn. I believe it negates the value of miracles when I imagine that they exist in simple human endeavor.
I have had some personal 'miraculous medical healings' that I could have chalked up to miracles from God. I'm sure you would say that I belittle God by not giving him the glory. The way I see it is, if there is a God, I belittle him if I do. I can see how my 'healing' was brought about by the power of my own mind to persevere and overcome and adapt. We are incredibly complex creatures. I believe we need to understand who, and what, we are; before we can begin to understand more.
I am not afraid to say that something is not from any God; nor am I afraid to say it is. But imagining that things are from God does not equate to God being there at that moment. That is the difference in real life and fantasy.
Our bodies were created by the supreme being Jehovah to heal themselves. I have no doubts that a person that believes they can control their body can actually heal themselves. Scientology I believe teaches this.
Of course there is a big diffterence between a bum knee and raising the dead. I refuse to doubt that it is possible just because I have not seen it, just like I refuse to believe there is no God just because I haven't seen him face to face.
Our bodies are incredibly comples, I agree with this statement. We haven't begun to tap into the capabilities of our own brains using a small percentage of it.
I can't explain it to you but I know when the presence of God is heavy around me. I know that his spirit lives within me at all times but when the tangable presence is there in the room with me there is something so sweet that it is hard to describe. I wouldn't trade that experience for all the book knowledge in the world. I pray someday you too will experience this.One thing I can guarantee you I would never do is use the name Jehovah. If there is one God, that's no better than calling him Bob. It isn't the name as was given to the Israelites to use. I can't, for the life of me, understand why Christians refuse to correct the mistake made in the translation by Tyndale. It's like attempting to find the truth means less than following the christian religion. I honestly don't get it.
As long as you continue to deny Him you can't experience that " spirit " you speak of. Once your born again you are filled with the holy spirit.
Sorry, you still don't quite get it. I'm not denying or denouncing anything but foolish statements by adults who should understand that fabricating stories and attempting to pass them off as truth, in a sad attempt to make themselves appear to be better than others, is wrong.
I'm beginning to worry that fundamental christianity has not taught its adherents the difference between right and wrongAnd your proof for this "fabrication" is?...
Making accusations without proof... tsk, tsk!Until you get the title Judge and I am in your court room please save me your judgemental accusations. They don't effect me for I know the truth and no one is being hurt by my faith in healing. Please give it a break.
Yes. You are correct. My posts have been judgmental of the posts that claim miracles where they obviously do not exist. But, we are not children Naomi. Were I conversing with children I would play the game. I adore fantasy games.
But this is a religion and philosophy forum and I will address issues that I feel compelled to from an angle of truthfullness and honesty, as much as I can. I ask for no more than I am willing to give. When my opinions on religion and philosphy are outside of the bounds of the possible; I know that I will be challenged and I will be expected to defend my beliefs and back them up with fact.
Hey Aqua, not even you are "holy spirit filled" and as for anyone else on this planet, neither are they. Their(including you) actions alone speaks volumes. As for speaking truth? Apparently, lying to themselves is acceptable, so they don't know the difference when they are lying to others.
So much for "holy spirit" filled believers.
Oh what little you know, there are none so blind as those who will not see.
I see perfectly fine. And, I'm sure you do also. So with that said, you perpetuate knowingly the lies of religion. Like I said, actions speaks volumes.
Yes, understand that there could be a higher power, but not a higher authority. Got it? I certainly hope so, I wouldn't want to have to make an example out of you yet again."perpetuate knowingly the lies of religion"?
I bring the truth as I have discovered it, what you chose to not believe is your matter. If you have PROOF against the power of Christ present it.
But not a "higher authority", than you presumably?
Do you really not understand that any higher power (and if you accept there is a higher power, you must accept there is a highest)must by default have authority over YOU.
I think you can take it as read that what you think is totally irrelevant to me, so make what you will. I only came here because you guys were playing tag team against Naomi, why waste the time talking to you.The power of Christ? You're too funny. You've assumed Jesus has power to begin with, because of something you read. To ask for proof of something which didn't exist to begin with is only your way of twisting. Good show of your dishonesty. Like I said, so much for being "holy spirit filled". Your actions speak volumes.
I am the highest authority in MY life. YOU are the highest authority in YOUR life. It cannot be any other way.
Untrue. Just because there might be(it's presently UNKNOWN) a higher power, still doesn't make that power a higher authority, because it cannot ever force upon you to take any action, otherwise it eliminates free will and choice.
Beautiful show of ego. Again, you show your true colors.
The fact that you see it as a waste time...again shows that you are seeing truth in my words and know it's meaningless to debate against it. Again, you twisting or trying to evade honesty, shows your dishonesty in actions. Thank you for proving me correct once again. I told you I would make an example of you, yet again.Cagsil, you are a buffoon, you think that what you say has relevance in the world.
I chose to submit to a higher power, the highest power, being that of Christ, currently empowered by God to hold that position. It has served me well to have done so.
The fact that you chose to berate and ignore Christ is really your problem, not mine, and I am not required to suffer the slings and insults of fools by God or Christ, turn the other cheek is on the cards, and had you known me prior to belief, you would be glad that I observe that, so your insults and slurs are ignored, but I have no obligation to be pretty pretty with you.
I see no truth in your words, you trumpet off on all occasions and hold the misguided belief that you actually control your own life.
Yes your free will can get you into even worse situations in time, your rebellion will bring you down eventually, but you do not control your life, you simply live the mirage you chose to create in your mind, assisted by those who seek to destroy you.
Now I am out of the forums, which themselves are a total wast of time, go play with someone else.
Cags, your Homo sapiens eyes, perhaps, but your spiritual eyes are dead asleep. Otherwise, you wouldn't say such lies. And your ego is such a strapping young lad! Clever little devil.
Confidence with humility is not the same thing as ego. But if you're swimming in ego, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
I don't see any behaviour that would indicate any sort of spirit from the religionists, except when they have obviously hit the whisky and their lies get bigger.
Gee maybe you aren't around us on a daily basis. You should check your bible again in case you forgot and see what christ was like and see what happened around acts chapter 2 when peter stood up to talk to the crowd.
This filling of the spirit is not just a one time thing and poof, a perfect christian... then we wouldn't learn things and we would be elaborate puppets. When we need the Spirit we will get the spirit. Hubpages doesn't rate high enough for a holy Ghost revival, but inspired things are said.You trying to tell me you're not elaborate puppets? I can understand not being elaborate, but not puppets?
I find that hard to reconcile with the posts I see here daily!we are much puppets to our doctrines as you are to yours.
reconcile that.A ridiculous myth written by psychotic goat herders thousands of years ago to control the terminally gullible as opposed to common sense, logic, massive empirical evidence that is growing daily, the application of scientific method.......... let me think about that for a millisecond.
So you have a diagnosis for them do you?
so now the writers are psychotics... i wish you would get your doctrine straight. I thought i told you that thinking the writers were psychotic didn't make any (common) sense and here you are still clinging desperately to a thing you know doesn't make sense just to push your own personal agenda. more lies.
despicable behavior.
you should take more than millisecond or is that your favorite study method
The first tree on the planet which contained its own seed:
- Keen insight by evolution to reproduce its entire genetic structure on something slightly larger than the head of a pin?
- freakish mutation that occurred from nothingness?
-Intelligent design from a designer?
hmm, even common sense would make me pick door number 3 alex, for the correct answer and eternal life please.Lets get your doctrine straight cousin. You believe nonsense because you want the eternal life - be honest.
Eternal life? Just think about that for a moment. Living forever. Wow - simply impossible. Logically impossible. Reasonable? Not at all. Living forever? Common sense dictates this is an oxymoron and - not possible.
You are desperate for it though - aren't you, cousin? Even to the extent of not properly living this life. Sad.
[/life]Yes, psychotics. The bible provides all the proof needed that they were psychotic without any other source! ....... how about that?
Psychotic scripture would be written by a psychotic wouldn't it?
Do you know what psychosis is brothery? or is that too close to the bone for ya to examine?EG - honestly the eternal life either is not my goal nor my inspiration for being christian. I think very little about it.
Impossible you say, rubbish. As i have mentioned before i am not limited to physical. The God i know, has freed me of that restraint and false doctrine. There is more to God and His realm than i can ever imagine. About spiritual things i am not so haughty as to claim i know it all.
E. Psychosis is easily defined by human definition. I do not define myself or other christians a psychotic. You cannot place a psychotic definition in a supernatural situation. God is obviously above reality and beyond rationality and not because of a deranged disposition but, simply put, because of necessity.
To march around jericho and make a loud noise to topple thick walls is by our human standards absurd even psychotic behavior, but, the marching and noise itself did not topple the walls - Gods power made them fall. To await a crossing of a great sea, without a boat, is absurd - by human standards. For a God to give his Son is psychotic, but not where a greater good is concerned.
Your psychotic assumption is wrongfully placed and out of context.wheres the answer about the tree big shots?
Secondly, there are many instances of people being raised form the dead, Smith Wrigglesworth had a lot recorded and he was prepared to raise folk whenever God told him to do so.
In reality you simply do not know what God has done, is capable of doing and will do in the future, I will second Naomi's statement, God can (and does) do anything He chooses to do, including shake the nations as we speak.- I won't pretend that your lie is not a lie. But, I don't know what point it serves to carry on a dialogue if I'm the only one involved attempting to be honest.
Likewise I see little point in continuing with someone who tries to claim the moral highground over something they have no understanding or experience about.
Best call it quits and go back to reading my book.Ah yes. Please, give absolutely no evidence to back up your claims. Just lay the blame on me for not blindly accepting your statements. This might be why only 2.9% of christians agree with the Pentecostals. Most people can't be bamboozled.
I looked up info on the pentecostal preacher you said was prepared to prove he could raise the dead. My only response is,
Get real. If he weren't a liar he would have been more than just prepared. He would have done it.No laying of blame, it is not your fault that you cannot understand.
Smith Wrigglesworth was well recognised for raising the dead, so I really cannot think what you were reading, anyhow, chunter onward with your diatribe of disbelief, I care not, better things to do.
My dear emilie apparently you are not as informed as you thought you were because there is lots of documented evidence of people being raised from the dead and it is happening right in this age nit to mention smith willglesworth. It would do no good to produce documentation here for you to read as you can't see truth when it is revealed to you. You are welcome to call me a liar or whatever else you want it doesn't matter to me as your defamation of character does not stop me from proclaiming the truth if the gospel. I assure you I could find you the proof of my statements. Right here in the town that I live in we have seen the knd healed documented by medical doctors and witnessed by many onlookers and damaged limbs healed, cancer gone etc. All documented to prove to wanta be scholars that god is real and through Jesus name healings take place all the time. Funny though in Africa where faith is strong people are being raised from the dead but the news media wants no part of yelling these stories. But alas if CNN or fox news doesn't report it or if it isn't found in Wikipedia then it can't be true......
One case. Please provide documented, verified truth of one case that the scientific community accepts as a miraculous healing. If you can do that, you could easily prove that you aren't simply spinning yarns.
I can't think of one person that wouldn't be thrilled to find that miracles are true. But very few people, myself included, like to lie. I won't agree to pretend that something is true when it clearly isn't.John 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
John 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Matthew 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
There are more but later, if i have to.
Again bible doctrine supports raising from the dead and resurrection.
You must have a very thin bible.
no such thing as prayer bringing a dead person back to life and you know that.i don't mind religious arguements but that one is lame. how about the people who died, came back but no one was praying for them or they were athiests. it's just how the human body is, not some religious interference
Bible specifically and on purpose says, "by now lazarus stinks" as he had been dead 4 days. I've heard stories about bells attached to coffins so just in case the person considered dead wanted out of their coffin.. etc... NDE are almost deaths but not quite... But in the case of lazarus, and in the case of Christ on the cross and in the case of promised future resurrections, we see that even death is not an impossible opponent.
His faith enabled him to be able to do this. We also have this ability with the right faith. Remember the scripture, " If anyone says to this mountain, be lifted up and thrown into the sea and does not doubt in his heart but believes that hat he says will happen it will be done for him." That is faith in action. Peter walked on the water just like Jesus did until he lost faith and got into fear. Moses hit the rod onto the rock and water came out of it did that make him a supernatural being or someone that trusted and believed the Word of God?!
Moved any mountains lately?
Walked on water perhaps? You always say that when the click word mountains is mentioned.
it gets funnier all the time.Mountains was stated of an example that anything us possible. I did move a mountain when I prayed and others prayed for my healing from blood sugar issues and I was completely healed and symptom free for at least five years now! God is good and Hus mercy industry forever!!!
Forsooth, the lady doth speak in ancient tongues. Doth thou verily witneff that the mountain was not a mountain and simply a change in diet?
Go on - move a mountain for us. Not at all Evolution Guy. On the contrair I was able and am still able to eat the sugar if I so choose. If you read my Hub the Cure for Diabetes is in your Mouth you will see that I tested out my faith to see if I was truly healed. Now I do follow a healthy diet but before the healing if I ate a large amount of carbs or any kind of sugar even large amounts of fruit created a serious drop in my blood sugar to in the forties at times. If you know anything about blood sugar you would know that is dangerously low. I have had no symptoms since praise God for His faithfullness.
Well done. Following a healthy diet will definitely change your blood sugar swings. Congratulations on losing the weight. That will definitely cure you of self inflicted diabetes. No god necessary. I have helped at least 5 people myself to "cure" their diabetes by losing weight and changing diet.
They thanked me and themselves instead of thinking it was majik.
Now go put 100 pounds on and eat 5 pints of ice cream a day and genuinely test god's faithfullneff. I guarantee your diabetes will return.
Guess that makes me more powerful than god huh?I did not experienced weight loss I did gain some after I began eating sugar products again. I haven't lost all that weight yet. I do eat healthy and always have. I know this is a hard concept for you that I was actually healed but the blood tests speak for themselves
No - they do not. You have not shared any empirical evidence. Merely claimed to have invoked majik to cure what was a very controllable symptom of low blood sugar - by changing your diet and relaxing.
Just as a matter of interest - as god does majik at your whim - why did you ask for something selfish instead of helping some one else?
You must have healed thousands of people by now - surely? How many starving children have you fed now? I imagine it is a lot. What other diseases can you cure with majik?
I have shared that I have cured 5 people with similar problems, myself - without invoking a god or doing any majik. Surely that evidence speaks for itself?That's where we differ as I cured nothing the ones who prayed over me cured nothing but The blood of Jesus healed me. I have prayed fir thousands of others I don't intend to brag on here about what I have done for others but in gaining my own health through the lord Jesus I have inspired others and given them a hope in God that they too have the right to be healed. Jesus did this for all. Well it is late and I must get to sleep. Enjoyed very much talking with you eg!
Sleep tight.
Looking forward to your answers to my questions on the morrow.
Has it occurred to you that you could quite possibly get somebody killed? I mean honestly? Someone gullible reads your story and thinks "I don't need my medicine, I'll just ask God" then dies. Are you OK with that?
But, isn't that what's called having "faith"?
Possibly I guess. Just wanted to know if she was ok with someone dying because of it.
LOL We agree for once.
See how religion rots your brain? Some people pretend they have found contemporary evidence of Jesus - others try and convince peopel not to take their medicine and instead pray to god.Yes - I can see why you do not want to hear what I say. Put your fingers in your ears and say "lalalalala".
When you see some one else acting irrationally - you are comfortable calling them on it - but when some one points out your irrational behavior - you ignore them.
See how religion rots your brain yet?I hear what you say EG, I just don't care. Want some popcorn?
No - I understand. Denial is a wonderful thing. Actually - crucial - to maintain your beliefs.
11th Commandment - "Do as I say, not as I do."
Basically - this is why I do not like your religion - it teaches and promotes hypocrisy.Yes - that is a no on the popcorn.
See how she ignored what you said to her because she has the Word of God in her head?
See how that applies to you now?
Don't care huh? Believing in Jesus is far more important than dealing with reality - I understand the pull. Take the easy option - even if it means being dishonest to defend it later. This is why your religion causes so many conflicts.
Obviously Mellissa you know the answer to that question. I always advocate for someone to seek a doctor before ever stopping a medicine. The choice is theirs to make however but I never ever want someone to blindly follow what I have done medically or spiritually. IF they want or need faith then they must go to Him themselves and study His Word. If they need healed then the same applies with the addition of seeking a doctor. You need proof in the pudding and that takes a medical doctor to confirm that yes you indeed are healed. Personally Mellissa I don't know why you are even on this forum since you neither care one way or the other. I guess you just came here to feed your face and throw stones with the rest. Well at least EG and Cagsil know what they believe and are willing to stand up for it. That is better by far then someone that is lukewarm and adds nothing to the conversation.
EG: My faith doesn't cause conflicts. The spirit of evil creates the conflicts and people who are willing to be manipulated by him.Sorry, I typed my last post while you were writing your response. The problem is in your hub, I didn't see anything that said "Please consult with your physician before you make any changes to your medication" or "My story is wonderful, but it is not typical. Please confirm that God has cured you with a board-certified physician." I think that at least that disclaimer might be appropriate.
Meliassa I thought I had put in a disclaimer and I appreciate you pointing that out to me. I have now added one to my Hub and I hope that the ones reading my Hub will make sure and carefully seek the advise of a physician at the same time they are walking in faith.
Of course Jesus saves, but there is more to this than just saying it. The ones who say it, and mean it are ambassadors substituting for Christ. If you are following this thread of saying it in so many ways that Jesus saves are you missing the point?
To get saved what does he expect us to do? A lot of rhetoric means like what one-liners use in comic mimics—your line, my line- everybody’s line—but with no results. Where’s the results? Again I point out where are your references—where did you read that?
Getting back to your claim Jesus saves, what is our obligation as ambassadors substituting for Christ? Let him answer, because he has all authority in heaven and on the earth.
“As my ambassador you should be preaching, going to the people, knocking on doors, and inviting them to have Bible Studies. This is the procedure I, Jesus launched, and it has been going strong ever since. A Bible study is my will to teach, make disciples, and baptize them to observe all the things he has commanded us.” (Matthew 28:18-20)You are correct thanks for your response!
Wait, what?
Matthew 28:18-20
18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
That says absolutely nothing about a bible study or knocking on anyone's door. How could Jesus have possibly lead a Bible Study?He said to make disciples. He said Teach them to observe all the things I have commanded you. Where is this curriculum to do the teaching of his commandments? As a matter of fact that’s exactly what he did—knock on doors as he traveled throughout the land then later sending out teams of six, much later teams of 35 they too knocked on doors teaching them all the things he had commanded them.
Of course they didn’t have the rest of what we have today Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts of the apostles, Romans, 1st & 2nd Corinthians, ant the list goes on for what we now use to teach the things that he has commanded.
Jesus certainly did launch a time honored profession knocking on doors, conducting Bible studies so that eventually—it’s not that easy—and with much effort a disciple of Christ is made.I get where you're coming from. And it's fine that you interpret it that way. But you have to acknowledge that it's a pretty loose interpretation of a verse rather than the verse itself. If you could note that when posting verses (or at least the verbatim source), I think it would go a long way in avoiding misunderstandings.
I just want to thank everyone who participated in this forum. I feel there was a lot learned my myself and I would hope that others gained some understanding as well.
The one thing that is for sure as I write in the forums I am learning about myself and how the way I speak in writing is perceived and I also have learned that you can't inject tone into a piece of writing unless you are careful very careful with the words that you choose to express yourself.Born Again...So I'll have to climb back in my Mothers Fanjita (Sorry folks!...er sorry mam!) and then slide out! Jesus H Christy!!!???
Born again simply means dieing to sin and renewing spiritman. Your flesh is not born again your spirit.
That's what you think the metaphor "born again" means?
Jesus, who started the "born again" thing during his conversation with Nicodemus, said it was a spiritual rebirth. The first birth is physical. The second one is spiritual. He didn't consider it a metaphor. It is an event. And Jesus considered that event to be a requirement for each person who would go to heaven (ie. eternal life). In your opinion how does His use of "born again" in that conversation translate into a metaphor?
Pure assumption based on what's written within the book you read. There's other factors not known nor are spoken within that book, which matter.
That is the only thing that matters in existence(life).
Doesn't exist. Spirituality, a.k.a. "mysticism" was debunked decades ago.
Again, pure assumption based on what you were taught, without knowing other factors.
Prove it without using any source from the book(religion) you read.
Your lack of knowledge is showing through- (ie. Heaven) is also a metaphor. The question is what's represent?
First off, you would have to understand more than just that. You have to understand "humans" development of that time, to put it into proper context. Otherwise, it's intellectually dishonest. The metaphor "born again" is about developing a new view and it had nothing to do with anything spiritual, simply because Jesus understood the problem with many people of his time. Almost all of the people Jesus was teaching, wasn't even aware of their own existence. Which means, they were not self-aware. Which, why Jesus taught them "I AM". It's all about becoming self-aware.Interesting thoughts. So where are you getting your information about spirituality being "debunked"? Actual sources would be great, so I can understand where you're coming from. I'm interested in where you're getting your information.
It's actually part of human history. Didn't you go to school? I don't mean for that to sound mean or anything, but when the human consciousness was understood in the 70's-80's, spirituality went out the window. Only those who chose not to learn about consciousness, didn't accept it.
Spirituality was born from mysticism. Mysticism is what was debunked, so anything tied to it or based on it, is also debunked.Christianity really has nothing to do with mysticism. I'm not sure why you maintain that they are linked. Christians believe that a God exists who created all of this, including us. Debunked? No. Christians believe that Jesus was a historical figure sent from this God. Debunked? No. Christians believe that the writings found in the gospels are a historical account of actual events as they were experienced an understood by the authors. Debunked? No. Debunking "mysticism" (assuming that's been achieved) has no effect on the validity of the claims of Christianity.
Debunked? Yes - Sorry - your beliefs are nonsense. Do you have any historical evidence at all of this person? No.
Odd how you ignored the metaphorical explanation and instead prefer to fight.
Majik.The metaphorical explanation is not an explanation without sources to back it up. It is simply a statement out of a persons head of what they happen to think. The bottom line here is there is no proof of Christianity being linked to mysticism. The Bible has ancient scrolls to validate its content and well kept documentation that validates who translated each version and when.
I can see why it would scare you. Your majik is debunked.
If it speaks about spirits or spirituality, then it's based on mysticism. Mysticism was alive and well when Christianity was born as a religion.
Yes, they believe myth. Nothing new.
Yes, denial happens.
Yes, another myth believed.
Actually, there's nothing to prove he was, so again myth debunked, whether or not, you or others like it.
Actually, you can stop anytime telling me what Christians believe. It's already known.
Actually, yes it has and had you learned anything about the religion you supposedly practice, then you would have learn that several of the gospels were actually written by the same person. Hand-writing analysis back in the 70's and 80's confirmed it.
Actually it does. It's people like you who refuse to see it."Actually, there's nothing to prove he was, so again myth debunked, whether or not, you or others like it."
This is an interesting argument. "I can not see proof therefore it cannot be true." You can not see proof of extra-terrestrial life somewhere out there in the universe. Debunked then? Science has not identified a gay gene for either males or females. Debunked? We have never actually witnessed macro-evolution. Debunked? Based on your logic, these would have to be considered myths as well. Good to know!
There is actually plenty of evidence outside of the New Testament accounts that Jesus was a real person. I wrote a hub about it. I could just as easily say denial exists on your end.No, because rationale and logic says it remains possible and probable. A god existing, isn't logical, rational, possible or even probable.
Comparing apples to oranges will get you nowhere.
It's still being studied and has rational, and logical basis. But, nice try.
You could, however, I didn't say that Jesus wasn't a real person, so get with the program. You cannot prove he was a "GOD" outside of religion.
You show any other writing outside of religion that shows Jesus was anything more than human, then you might be on to something. But, you cannot."No, because rationale and logic says it remains possible and probable. A god existing, isn't logical, rational, possible or even probable."
You're assuming I'm trying to get somewhere. I'm simply defending what I believe. It doesn't bother me if you don't believe in God. You're attacking my beliefs, not the other way around. Honestly, I wouldn't have started commenting if your posts hadn't been antagonistic and disrespectful. I hear all the time about how intolerant Christians are, but I think you win.
"You show any other writing outside of religion that shows Jesus was anything more than human, then you might be on to something. But, you cannot."
1. Old Testament scriptures have been historically preserved and have not been doctored, written hundreds of years before birth of Jesus.
2. Old Testament scriptures speak prophetically about where/when Jesus would be born, what he would do, etc.
3. New Testament account shows fulfillment of those prophecies.
4. New Testament events are corroborated by secular documents of the time (those written by people who were not associated with the early church).
Again, I wrote a hub about it. You may decide to dismiss it because the "Bible is used to validate the Bible". However, the Bible is not a book written by a single author. It's a compilation of documents written across thousands of years. It's perfectly reasonable to reference prophetic writings written hundreds of years before Jesus arrived to validate his message and his mission. If all of the Old Testament prophecies written about the Messiah are in fact fulfilled in Jesus then that is plenty of validation from my perspective. You can ignore it if you want. Doesn't bother me. But the evidence is there. Each person should be free to decide what they believe without antagonistic and judgmental speech from the other side. It's no more stupid to believe in a creator God than it is to believe that there could be aliens out there. Believe what you want; give others the freedom to do the same.
No, not all Christians believe that. Maybe you should say "I believe" rather than speaking for a whole faith.
That's a little sketchy too. Maybe "I believe" again?
Yeah. Again... could you state your beliefs as YOUR beliefs rather than every Christian's?
I actually agree with you there... probably not for the same reasons. Philosophically speaking (as well as logically) disproving the source of a belief doesn't necessarily disprove the belief itself. Call it poisoning the well or fruit from the poisonous tree, the thought that a belief is wrong because the source of the belief was incorrect would lead to a fairly significant portion of valid scientific and philosophical theories being overturned.Sure, no problem. I'm not sure what the point would be of calling yourself a Christian if you aren't even bought into the "there is a God" part of the Bible. That would be a secularist attempt to hijack the name "Christian" and redefine it. A Christian is a Christ follower. Are there actually people who would call themselves Christ followers who don't actually believe He existed? Seems strange to me. I suppose people can call themselves whatever they want. I could call myself a secular humanist if it made me happy and no one could really stop me from doing that. But then I think the secular humanists might be a little perturbed.
There are actually Christian atheists. You can believe in the message as offered by Christ without believing in the magical nature of the stories. I don't think anyone has a patent on the word Christian. I could be wrong.
Just to point it out, but not every Christian believes the same thing. I personally do not believe that God created the world, I might if I cared how we got here, but I don't. Regardless, that doesn't really have to do with following the teachings of Christ. Technically, one would not necessarily have to believe in God to believe in the lessons of Christ. If you removed all the "my father" stuff that could easily mean "the universe" if such a concept would have widely existed at the time.
In addition, one not necessarily believe in a living walking Christ to buy into the lessons that his story told. I do believe that such a person existed, but I can see the value in the lessons even if they were all proven completely fictional. To really mess you up, I believe that although Christ existed, there is likely quite a bit of "writer's prerogative" in the recounts of his deeds. Doesn't matter, because I still agree with most of the morals his story teaches.
As far as hijacking and trying to change the meaning... most secularists would, I think, rather stay as far away from the label of "Christians" as they can get. I don't really need a definition of what Christianity is, which is why I get picky when either the non-believers or the belivers try to give definitions to an entire belief system.
If you would like to call yourself a secular humanist, I think it would be a really good idea. Maybe breaking free from the label you have attached to yourself might allow you to think for yourself rather than the "I am a Christian, Christians believe this, therefore I must believe it too" that I am picking up from you.To believe in Christ Jesus you have no choice but to believe in the whole Bible for the Old Testament stories is the whole reason why the exhistance of Jesus came to be. The fall of man, or the sin of Adam is the ultimate reason for Jesus who was and is and always will be and chose to come to earth birthed through a virgin seeded by the Holy Spirit of God for the sole purpose of fulfilling the law.
To say you believe in Jesus but you don't believe in God is a misnomer. Jesus and God are one Jesus says so JOHN 10:30I have lots of choices in what I believe in Naomi. I happen to believe in the teachings of Christ. By my standards, that makes me a Christian. As the only standards I have to live up to are my own, that's good enough for me.
"If you would like to call yourself a secular humanist, I think it would be a really good idea. Maybe breaking free from the label you have attached to yourself might allow you to think for yourself rather than the "I am a Christian, Christians believe this, therefore I must believe it too" that I am picking up from you."
Not really. Like I've said before in this forum, I don't simply follow whatever I'm told to believe. I research things myself and decide for myself. A label doesn't define my belief system. I choose the label that most closely lines up with what I consider truth to be.
You would have to rip the words of Jesus completely out of its historical context and ignore the writings of his apostles who spent time with him to come to the conclusion that Jesus meant "the universe" when he said "Father". You can certainly mentally translate his words to mean anything you want, but it wouldn't be historically accurate. Jesus was speaking to Jews who knew who God was and also knew he meant the God of the Old Testament when he said "Father". He talked about the law which was given by the God of the Old Testament. To make sense of Jesus' message, you have to take all of it together rather than bits and pieces. Really, if you want to do it piece by piece then you aren't a follower of who Jesus actually was. Instead you're a follower of the Jesus you've made up for yourself. It's cool with me if you want to do that. More power to you. But in that case I would not label you a Christian. That's my opinion.Yeah, for some reason the conservative Christians and the militant atheists both agree I am not a Christian. But you all seem to agree on a lot of things... including your translations of bible verses. I always thought that was neat. You do realize, however, that neither of you has the authority to decide what religion I am... right?
You are Jesus. You need to crucify your ego on the cross to be born again.
Shocking that so many Christians do not understand the metaphorical imagery of the bible and look for majik to happen by some one else doing the work.
But what if there was a turtles head poop in my pants and I knew full well that Jesus put it there, What then!!? Does he turn the turtle headed poop into bread and wine and you are free to be born again!????!!
I have been reading the comments for days now so please forgive me for jumping in on this discussion. It is so obvious that Christians are very closed minded when it comes to even their own belief's compared to others. Atheists/agnostics seam to me more knowledgeable about all the world religions. I to was guilty of being closed minded when it came to this Religion until one day many years ago when my questions about the bible could not be answered without someone quoting one of the scriptures so I did my own research away from the all too famous "king James version" Bible which by the way I had been told was the only true bible. The more I became educated about organized Religions the more it all sounded so ridiculous to me. I have attended so many different churches from coast to coast throughout the United States within so many different denominations way too many to list but I became the most enlightened by some of the back woods churches of the coal fields of West Virginia. These are some of the most closed minded, uneducated people I have ever met. Please don't shoot me, I have met some very intelligent people there as well, all outside of the Churches of course. Although I had never attended one of the famous "snake churches" of that region but according to those people taking up serpents and drinking poison is in the bible as well so if you are going to believe every word written by some obviously uneducated prehistoric men you might as well drink poison and play with copperheads too. If you claim the bible is the word of God but only some parts of the bible should be followed and others ignored. Sorry, I just can't accept this religion to be true. A quote from well educated Judge Judy says: "if it doesn't make since, then it can't be true" That is how I look at things in life. If you did not see the documentary "Jesus Camp" I am posting a link, it's a must see. It shows how Religion (Christianity) today brainwashes our children. It's sickening. Now with that being said, I am going to go light a candle and meditate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACyLTsH4acTo save us from what? Himself? lol... There is nothing to be saved from and you are immoral every day you allow someone else to pay for your sins. You Christians put the nails in hands and feet every day you accept his murder for your benefit. Christianity is thereby the most immoral religion in the world.
Jesus died for your sins whether you receive Him or not He did it because He loves you and me! For God so loved the world that He gave His only son that whosoever ( that's you ) believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life! So whether we choose to accept the salvation or not he would have done it anyway as He loves us ( you ) that much!
Can you use anything other than the bible, which states that is true?
Edit: Rephrase- anything other than a religious book.Considering this whole duscussion was taken from a comment about jesus who happens to be in the Bible that I believe in there is no other evidence that stands stronger than the Word of God
Scribblings in a book that were copied from other religious ideas do not constitute "evidence." Seeing as none of the writers of the Gospels ever even met this mythical entity - don't be surprised if no one accepts what you say as anything other than self-righteous nonsense.
I won't be surpirsed that there are those that will turn their backs on the Word of God. That has happened for thousands of years. I choose to accept the written Gospel as the inspired written Word of God and that is my choice. Your choice is to believe only in what you see but I choose to believe in Him even though I have not seen Him. I know Him as He lives in me and His spirit teaches me about Him.
So god loved us so much he had his son murdered for us? sounds like a sick god. Why would it need to have a murder committed so it could forgive?
Second, if Jesus gave his life so I am saved, then I am saved whether I like it or not. Why do I need to believe anything?
Third, if you accept that Jesus was murdered so you can go to heaven then you are immoral. You are not taking responsibility for your own so called sins. You are taking advantage of the murder of an innocent for your own benefit. I find that despicable. Don't you?Those are your morals. I go by the morals taught in the Word of God. You don't have to believe that is your choice. God gives you that choice. But....if you do choose to believe in Him and accept Jesus in your heart and confess your sins He is faithful and just to forgive you your sins. You are only saved if you ask Jesus to come into your heart and confess your sins. Then you are given Salvation which includes a huge barrage of blessings. I am not forcing you to believe. I am only telling you what I know from the Bible that I choose to believe. I care about you all and pray that you all will come to the saving Grace of Jesus Christ.
You do not have to accept what I say is true. If you choose to disregard my message that is your choice and you will be no better or no worse because of it but if you choose to believe and pray the sinners prayer than you are free from the curse of the law and free from sin. Your yoke of bondage will be lifted. Jesus freely gave, I did not ask Him to give His life for me He planned it that way. His choice. I would not insult Him but refusing to accept a gift freely given.you still have not answered why a god would need to murder his son to forgive us. And if he has forgiven us then it is a done deal. No need for me or anyone to believe it.
The reason you need to have faith is because there is no god. Faith keeps the myth alive. There is nothing to be saved from. I have no yoke of bondage unless I accept one, and I don't.
The bible was written by primitive uneducated superstitious people. The only thing it is good for is a look inside the mind of primitives. And yet Christians think it is truth.
If you know it's history you know what a load of nonsense it is. But Christians do not want to know it's history.
Thanks for caring but it is not required,
So what happens to all those other poor souls such as myself?
Jesus loves you and is crying out to you.
"Jesus saves" is true in itself. Jesus came to save All of us - he made a great sacrifice for us and we sure owe HIM all honor and glory. HIS name is worthy to be praised. Amen
He wouldn't have had to if his father wasn't the mafia boss who required a murder before he could forgive us. So praise Jesus and curse god for being a tyrant egomaniac with a blood lust. lol..
If you see some loving in what god did to his son then I am glad you are not my parent. If murder = love in the eyes of Christians they may need mental help.You see the plan was very simple. Jesus knew when He chose to give up His life that God would raise Him from the dead in three days and He was willing to pay that price. He is so loving that way. The mafia boss does what he does to benefit himself but God did what He did to benefit us all. That is a big difference. That is love.
Is that why he wiped out all but 8 people one time? Because he loves us?
Who would us be then?When you create a bowl of clay and shape that clay into something you have every right to smash that clay or whatever as you created it which makes it yours. Who are we to question God's motives.
I don't need to question the invisible psychopathic entity at all, I just marvel at the idea of following a non existent mythical lunatic who would wipe out people as if they were a piece of clay!
Really? So when I invent sentient life in a test tube and throw it in the fire that's my right? You see? I don't think Christians know the meaning of the word morality. And that is because they take their idea of morality from primitives and barbarians.
Seems your god does what it likes to benefit itself. Also, Jesus is god according to the Roman version of the myth. So he murdered himself and raised himself from the dead, Great if he was a human. Meaningless if he was a god. It's not love, it's theatrics.
- Emile Rposted 13 years ago
0From everything I've heard, this born again philosophy is considered shaky, from a scriptural standpoint. Mentioned only once in the gospel of John. I've copied a little from Wikipedia:
The quotation from the Gospel of John has raised some questions about the meaning and authenticity of the phrase "born again". In the chapter, Nicodemus is puzzled and asks Jesus what he means by saying that "Ye must be born again". He questions: "How can a man re-enter his mother's womb?" Bart D. Ehrman says that this confusion is because in Greek (the language of the gospel) the word again is ambiguous. It might mean again or a second time or from above, which would explain Nicodemus' confusion. However, the Jews at Jesus' time were actually speaking Aramaic, in which language there would not have been a double meaning. Ehrman says that this raises questions about the authenticity of the dialogue, the meaning of the words, and, therefore, the use of the phrase.
A 19th century source notes that the phrase was not mentioned by the other Gospellers, nor by the Apostles except Peter. "It was not regarded by any of the Evangelists but John of sufficient importance to record." And, without John, "we should hardly have known that it was necessary for one to be born again." This suggests that "the text and context was meant to apply to Nicodemus particularly, and not to the world." Otherwise, it would have been mentioned more often.
With that in mind, do you consider it right to attempt to announce to the world that no one can have a relationship with God, other than by following your limited understanding of the scriptures?To be born again is to die to sin and renew our lives to eternal life accepting Jesus Christ as our one and only Saviour. This is a simple term to describe the act of beginning over as a new creature in Christ.
It doesn't matter how you define it; or, I would assume the more accurate statement might be how your preacher has explained it. The point is, that this is not shown to be a requirement, within your scriptures, in order to have a relationship with God, or Christ. Many sects don't see this in the scriptures.
Considering this fact, do you not have any reservations about arguing in support of your statement? You are, in effect, saying that any who don't agree with you are cut off from God until they do agree.I am simply repeating what I have read in the scriptures. Whether you choose to believe it or not I do read and study the scriptures. Anyone who believes in Him is not condemned, but anyone who does not believe is alredy condemned, because h has not believed in the name of the One and Only Son of God. John 3:18 THCSB
That is a completely different statement from your OP. Are you now saying that it is not necessary to be born again?
Emile, You know, just once, I would love for these who enjoying stating scriptures and claim to read and study the bible, to actually read some of the ancient copies we have. I am sure they would find things a little different that what is printed in the bible they are actually using.
Or even take a class or two...I mean really...Yale offers the complete OT and NT courses on video for free.Really? I might check that out. That's incredibly nice of them. If you just go to the Yale website, can you easily find the link?
Here is the link if you are interested.
http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies
True! I have ceased to wonder why they won't study it fully. The sources are credible to most of the world. Religious or not.
These days it is so easy to compile all the documentaries on religious history and cross-reference them with the bible that anyone with a reading age of 12 could become an expert.
The pedantic use of scripture should be a thing of the past, nothing is served by regurgitating threats made by individual's brain chemistry and the part the medulla which operates their fear.
It ain't gonna happen for those poor individuals who were indoctrinated at an early age.
It's like talking to a computer that has no access to any data outside a single program.
Simply, they are too afraid to address reality.Why would I need someone else to study the same scripture I have access to and interpret it for me I have the Holy Spirit to guide me. That's like saying I should have someone from Yale read the Thornbirds and tell me what it says.
Why would you perceive my comment as a threat?
Because they are threats I guess!
You threaten by proxy with an invisible sky fairy.IT is only a threat if you believe and you make it very clear you do not.
In fact I don't see a comment like that a threat at all but a statement of love. God wants all to come to Him and He has given us the way to do it. That is all I am saying.
So if I threaten you, it is not a threat unless you believe it? How in hell does that work?
Strange logic.Then, they are threats, by your own words.
Can someone please tell me the statement I made that was a threat?
What makes you so sure I haven't studied?
It's already obvious to me you've not done any real study of the book you supposedly read. Which is why I said what I said in my first post.
Why would you think I was talking about you? I was just talking in general actually. I have had many discussions with many who have flat out said that they only used the bible and do not require any teaching other than what God provides.
Obviously you were talking about me as I am the one who made the post that you detest so much. It is amazing to me that you three show up in all the posts about God even though you so adimately oppose Him and His Word. If you perceive the Words of the Bible so disgusting then why bother posting. Why not visit other forums that talk about matters you really care about.
One, I have never stated that I detest anything. You assume that, because I post questions or statement that are not in alignment with your beliefs. Two, this is a Religion and Philosophy forum. Three, I was simply posing a comment to someone. If I wished to address you personally, trust me I would. I would not have based my studies in Religion, Theology and the Bible, if I was detested by God, Religions or the Bible.
I happen to understand the bible quite well and enjoy reading and studying it alot actually. When I see something posted that is in conflict with what I learned in school, through many years of study, I point out what is taught by scholars. I typically only get "grief" from those who claim to be believers and refuse to study any document other than the bible itself. And then claim to have a better understanding of it (through God's guidance) than someone who holds a PHD in Biblical Studies, spent many years in school learning, and 3 years doing research for my doctorate dissertation. (I did mine on the writings and teachings of S/Paul, by the way).
And this part of the comment is directed to you. You sound just like every other so called "christian". Many of which have no comprehension of the bible, other than what they have been told at church or think they have been lead to believe through God's guidance. They don't bother to take the time to actually completely study the bible, learn why the books we have are the ones used, what books were taken out of the bible and why, what did the authors actually mean when they wrote the books, Who were the books (NT) meant for. Why did the church finally settle on the books we now see. Where did the belief system you follow actually come from? Who was the founder, what was his or her original beliefs. How did the version of the bible that you use come about. What documents were used for it's translations? And this is just for starters.
I have no problems with people's personal beliefs. And using the bible as a basis for those beliefs is a necessity. However, pointing out personal interpretation of the bible based on your personal beliefs as factual information...That I don't agree with. Each person has the right to develop their own beliefs. Some agree, others do not. Stating personal interpretation of the bible as facts...Well...There are over 30,000 denominations of christian beliefs for a reason.Just because I dont brag about all the books other than the Bible that I have read and used to glean my beliefs from doesn't give you the right to judge whether or not I have or have not. I should not have to and will not defend what I have studied. I believe what I believe from a lifetime of study of the Word. I do not have a PhD and frankly from contact with many that have one I have not seen that it has been an advantage to have one. Many of my studies came from the John Wesley series however I have studied from many Pentecostal slanted books as well. I studied some in WyCliffe's studies however I did not agree with many of their teachings so I stopped studying their doctrine.
Many of my beliefs come from personal experiences. I am a minister's daughter so I was raised in the church. I did not agree with the book of doctrine of the church I was raised in and my father and I had many discussions about it.
I do enjoy discussing how others believe and their interpretations of the Bible but I find it rather annoying when people insist to know what I have done,where I have been, and what I know based off of a few small posts on a forum. Can we not have a discussion without throwing stones. I feel we could all benefit from each other and why we believe what we believe. I obviously base many of my beliefs on healing from personal knowledge but the Word gives us a lot of insight to what Jesus has done for us and I just believe His will is for us to be healed. I check out for myself everything my pastors preaches and what I learn from books also. I am stubborn that way. I refuse to just take someones word for something regardless. My pastor is awesome and he actually encourages us to check out everything he teaches.
It is interesting that the church I grew up in is so different than the church that I am attending now.
I sing on the worship team and love to worship my God in song. I appreciate you sharing your beliefs on my post.Well, I never said that you have or have not studied. I did however compare your comments to others. And I still hold that the majority of those, have no understanding of what they are claiming. They are simply parroting what they have been told.
I personally do not believe or follow much of what I have studied either. But none the less, I have formally studied the material and based on the fact that I completed the course, should show that I understand and comprehend the material.
I was raised Weslyan Holiness myself. And have been a minister for close to 30 years now. And I am similar to your minister, as in I encourage people to not take my word for anything without looking for their own truths as well.
I enjoy this forum, because it allows me the chance to get different responses to certian topics from people of all beliefs and cultures. I am not here to push what or how I believe onto others. As a matter of fact, I don't even talk about my personal beliefs, unless asked and that person truly just whats to know what I believe and not argue over who is right or wrong.Very interesting. My father was a Pilgrim Holiness minister and then they merged with the Wesleyan Methodists as they were in financial trouble so the two combined and Pilgrim Holiness bailed them out so to speak. Then they changed the name to Wesleyan. I wonder if the faith is any different than the one I grew up in. Do you know the difference between the two or are the names just different?
They are the same. At least to the best of my knowledge. Very very minor differences maybe from church to church. I think there is a slight difference in how strict certain churches are. Long sleeves and short hair for men, long dresses and hair for women. No jewelry, TV, "worldly" music, That sort of thing.
In Ohio and Pennsylvania it goes by Wesleyan Holiness mostly. There was one Pilgrim Holiness Church camp that I used to go to though.
Yeah, I remember well that book of doctrine, no mixed "bathing" no dances etc. etc. This is the book I was referring to that my father and I used to have discussions about. I didn't understand why the church created a manual for what to do and what not to do when they had the Bible that was pretty plain about good and bad.... Anyway, not here to knock any particular religion. I gained a great base knowledge of the Word of God in this church and under my dad's tutalige. He is 84 years old and still practices his ministry. He is retired. Interestingly when he retired from the Wesleyan Church he went to a non-denonminational church to preach and preached for another ten years as they couldn't find a preacher and he gave his word he would preach until they found one. They loved him and quit looking. Finally him and mom retired and moved down to Zapata, Texas to a retirement village and funny thing is they talked him into being the preacher at their place and he helped them get started as an actual church and preached for them about five years or so prior to my mothers death. He then continued to go down there but his health wouldn't let him pull his 5th wheel down there any more. He taught sunday school class in my son's church up until this last year he told me he got to where he had to write down his whole lession as he got to where he would forget his point and was getting confused and he thought the people deserved better than that.
Funny, I assume I was included in your 'you three' statement. Although I realize the fundamentalist/literalists/born agains truly believe themselves righteously channeling god; what they are in fact doing is self righteously pushing their opinions.
I believe we all have the right and freedom to state our opinions. So, until you prove to me that you are God, I will feel perfectly comfortable stating my opinions anywhere I chose. Because I am bright enough to see that my opinion is simply that. It isn't the word of any God.Frankly I welcome you on my forum post. You are more than welcome to state what ever you want on my forum. However, I will say this. I see you as luke warm as you don't seem to state any beliefs at all. All I see if you discounting what everyone else says but you have yet to state what you believe. Which is also fine. You don't have to put yourself out there where you are open to ridicule, it is much safer hiding behind discounting others beliefs and calling others foolish and dishonest.
First, I want to ask you to reread your post. This is not to cause hard feelings; but I want you to understand what has just happened here. You accused me of being judgemental in a previous post, as if I was outside of the bounds of acceptable behavior by having an opinion and voicing it. Now, you have done the exact thing you chastised me for. We all do it Naomi, when we share an opinion. You might remember that so that you don't think these conversations are personal.
As to your judgment. You have no idea who, or what, I am. I have made no bones about my beliefs during the time that I have been here but, I'll give you a run down since you think I'm afraid to say what I think.
I think all spirituality is on a level playing field. I don't consider main stream Chrisitianity spirituality though. I consider it a social club. I think that any truth that might have been found within the organized religion was negated prior to the Council of Nicea. I think Man took a message and reformed it into a system of control.
I think that any truth of spirituality or God, must be found by accepting the world as it is. I believe that 'scriptures' are man made and must be viewed from that angle. To see if we can find a reflection of the thoughts of any Divine power within the words. I honestly believe that pushing personal truths as if they must be accepted by all is a mockery of spirituality.
Discussing beliefs is a noble thing, imo. Sharing what you feel is great because spirituality is attained through an inner connection. But, when people join in with make believe it degrades and negates any gains that might have been made by the group as a whole. Make believe is counter productive and it is the one thing that will stop personal progress. Spirituality is also called enlightenment, Naomi. Enlightenment is wisdom. The search for spirtuality = the search for wisdom. It does not equate to fantasy.
I don't consider this mad rush by the evangelicals to convert the 'heathens' as a spiritual conversation; a philisophical conversation or a valid religious conversation. It is an aside. A break from the search. Entertainment. I sometimes wonder what it is doing in this forum, but I enjoy being entertained as much as the next person and join the fun.You are correct in saying that I was being a little judgemental in my last post to you. Part of it was a plea to hear what you believe. I finally get some peice of who you are now. It is hard to have a discussion friendly or heated with a person when you really don't know where they stand.
I understand your feelings about organized religion. Most feel the same way nowadays. It used to be real faith but today it is a social club.
I don't participate in organized religion. I do practice faith and I do go to church. My church is a Word church and we don't do rituals we just honor God in worship and song and then study the Word of God. Our pastor teaches the Word and encourages we study for ourselves not to take his word for it. I admire him. He has studied theology and has a doctorite in his studies. He is no beginner to the Word of God. I respect his place in the church and give him honor which is what the Bible says to do. I too search for wisdom in hopes that I can be of help and service to my fellow mankind.
I am a very serious person when it comes to my faith and I would never use foolishness and made up fantasy stories to convince others to believe the way I believe. Everything I talk about has been studied out and I believe to be true. It is okay when others disagree with me but when people tell me I am creating fantasy and making up stories, call me a liar,tell me I should be locked up in a insane asillum, acuse me of causing others to do things that will potentially kill them I dislike that very much.
I have discussed this topic with you for several days now and I just now finally get you to state how you feel. I am glad. I thank you for putting it out there and sharing it with me and the others that choose to read this.
No it's not. To be born again is to accept Jesus as your savior. It is very simple really.
It is very simple, but the answer is definitely not the one you choose to believe. But, since I see you told Ernest you prefer not to take advantage of scholarly study of the scriptures, you may never know if your belief is in line with truth.
Naomi, Emile makes a good point. Scholarly study, plus a study of other religious thought and philosophy will help.
What is "accepting Jesus?" I've talked to some Christians who think that merely saying they "accept Jesus" is all they need to do, then they're free to commit any crime. What a lousy sense of faith and logic that is. Saying that one wants to follow Jesus, but then turning around and then following Mammon, or ego, is nothing short of self-deception.
Yes, it's all very simple, but we usually bring too much complexity to the interpretation.
Being "born again?" What does this mean? It is being born of the spirit, right? But what does this really mean? It means not living in the ego, for ego is a created pseudo-self -- a physical construct. One must deny one's ego self in order to awaken the sleeping child of God within.
The Bible also talks of reincarnation and karma, but many Christians refuse to consider these because of dogma and shallow interpretation. Don't be afraid to look beyond the interpretations of the last two thousand years. A lot of ego has crept into the church.I have studied your way in the colleges. I learned a basic grasp of the scriptures but there is way more in the scriptures than what you can learn in a classroom. The Bible plainly states to ask for wisdom and He will give it to you. I am not against study just found it lacking. I have read the Bible through five times not to mention the hours of study I have given to it and never have I heard it speak of karma or reincarnation.
I thank you for your trying to explain what you think I don't understand. I wrote a simple statement. If I had intended on a long drawn out explanation I would have written a Hub to describe it. Of course, being "born again" is having your spirit man renewed. Your flesh body is what it is and we will not need them much longer as we will recieve our Glorified bodies soon.Now if you had stayed the course at college and not failed you would be able to think more coherently, more able to employ reason and would not then be forced to rely on what others tell you to think.
Now now recommend don't throw stones. I graduated with honors and aced the religious classes. Regardless of that knowledge won't get you into Heaven. Believing in Jesus will.
Please do not pretend to know me or my amount of knowledge. I don't use labels to make my point.
Naomi, you re-defined "born again" as "to die to sin and renew our lives to eternal life accepting Jesus Christ." All well and good, but you're not really defining the terms. You are merely repeating dogma. The dogma may be right, but if your interpretation of it is wrong, then you will be saying one thing, but doing another. Understanding is critical.
But what do you mean "new creature in Christ?" Born again has nothing to do with physical creatures! Spirit is not Homo sapiens. In fact, I seriously doubt that Homo sapiens will be needed much longer. In a few thousand years, it will remain a forgotten species. Where we would like to go, there is no need of such things.
The child of God is not Homo sapiens, because God is not Homo sapiens. Remember Genesis 1:26? The image of the Father is that of a non-physical, spiritual and immortal source of creation. That makes each of us (the inner, sleeping soul) inherently non-physical, spiritual and immortal sources of creation, for that is the "image" of the Father. If you rebel at what sounds like the idea that we may be "baby gods," then I suggest you look at John 10:34, where the Nazarene teacher answers the accusations of his enemies with "ye are gods." And if they were accusing him of blasphemy for claiming to be the Son of God, then his reply had nothing to do with the power of mortal judges. This had more to do with the inherent nature of God's children. All children look like their parents. We simply have a dual nature -- sleeping, immortal spirit wrapped in Homo sapiens flesh.
Born again is reawakening of the spirit, and washing away the poison of the forbidden fruit that we ourselves took so long ago -- not in our current, temporary bodies, but in the spirit of our true selves. Everlasting life is living in the spirit, because, when these bodies die, we will have continuity of consciousness only if our true selves are awake.Yes, some of what you say is true. We are sons of God in His eyes. By the blood of Jesus whe are adopted. We are eternal heirs of the promise. All the flesh will pass away and our spirit man lives forever regardless of where we end up.
This is where I can agree with you. Our spirit lives forever. The death of the flesh is inevitable. If we die to the negative and lead with a heart of love, we lift the spirit to the higher level, the level from which Jesus taught. One cannot, however, know this until one knows this. As metaphor, the Bible hits a home run, out of the park, incomparable. But it is a metaphor. We are all part of the same spirit and must learn to love. There is no way to heaven/love. Heaven/love is the way.
Emile, you said, "From everything I've heard, this born again philosophy is considered shaky, from a scriptural standpoint."
Well, that may be your interpretation. Personally, I find most "born agains" rather shallow in their understanding of its meaning. But scripturally, the idea has a basis throughout the Bible -- from Genesis onward. Gen. 1:26 (created in the image of God), Gen. 3 (the fall of "man" ... and not Homo sapiens; that came later), Gen. 6:3 (My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh), John 10:34 (Ye are gods). When the Nazarene teacher says that we need to deny ourselves in order to gain everlasting life, he was talking about the same thing.
As children of God, we are inherently immortal spirit -- baby gods -- but sound asleep from the poison of the forbidden fruit which we, individually, took -- ages ago. Being born again of the spirit is to cast off the importance we hold for the body, but especially for the ego. And it is ego that we carry with us from lifetime to lifetime. That is the engine which dishes out karma -- the action-reaction machine which ties us to suffering. Let ego (selfishness) die, and the spirit can awaken.
Emile, you also said, "...do you consider it right to attempt to announce to the world that no one can have a relationship with God, other than by following your limited understanding of the scriptures?"
You make a good point here. I suspect that everyone's interpretation is rather inaccurate and limited. That's why such discussions are so valuable (except for the few who have nothing to contribute but cackles and barbs).
For the most part, I find your contribution intelligent and refreshing.Well, I suppose I should start by saying thank you for the compliment on my contribution to the discussions. I'm afraid you are overly kind.
And I think you make interesting points. I doubt you and I are far apart on how we perceive we are to work toward our connection to the spiritual. My only point to Naomi was an attempt to point out that a simplistic statement such as the one she is making, implying broad ramifications for any that don't agree with her; is arrogant. That is simply one of many interpretations (that is itself in dispute within Christianity) and interpretation should not be bandied about as fact. Especially not a fact that would lead one to believe that they are somehow cut off from a deity they believe in simply because they don't agree with the OP.
You must be joking. You compare yourself to Wikipedia? I don't know if you noticed, but Wikipedia is open to new information. Constantly corrected to ensure it is truthful. It is a trusted source of information. I hope you see the glaring differences.
you're funny... the link the snipped was to my hub on nicodemus. It totally thrashes the opinion stated in your post and it is from a jewish perspective on the situation. Jewish perspectives give us a glimpse into their traditions, ways of life, how they thought and why...
There is nothing unscriptural about a born-again doctrine. In fact it is quite a beautiful phrase.There is nothing wrong with the term born again, itself. It is the manner in which it is interpreted that raises the eyebrow.
I'll bet you that not one of these wildly evangelical sects can trace its roots back more than a couple of hundred years. I'll go on to bet you that most of your sects were started by charismatic preachers with absolutely no formal education in theology .
There is absolutely no reason to assume that any of your sects are correct in their interpretations. You all ignore almost two thousand years of theological study and reflection; a lifetime of secular discoveries and refuse to admit to evidence available from simple observation skills. I can think of no reason to take anything any evangelical says with more than a grain of salt.Emile,
This would be an interesting argument if all Christians since the start of the evangelical "sects" simply blindly followed the ground work laid ahead of them and did no research of their own. Granted that many Christians do blindly follow and this is unfortunate. But I personally do a lot of research and study and I don't simply follow whatever my parents taught me or what I heard in "Vacation Bible School" when I was six. Seminaries teach people Greek and Hebrew so that they can go back to the original texts and decipher for themselves. We have thousands of copies of ancient texts from which our current Bible was translated into English. Scholars do their own research, their own study, and decide for themselves what they believe. There are so many different Christian denominations specifically because we don't simply follow like sheep.
About evidence, I personally don't ignore secular discoveries. I simply haven't seen any secular discoveries that have shaken my faith. At the same time, secularists make wild assumptions and giant leaps about things they see and tell the rest of the world that something has been proven that really hasn't. It happens all the time. There is a balance. I've said before that Christianity co-exists with science. No scientific discovery has ever invalidated the message of the Bible. It may invalidate the message of some Christians, but those messages needed to be invalidated anyway. To assume that disproving something a Christian said is in fact defacto disproving the Bible itself is an error. Many have attempted to disprove the claims of the Bible. It simply hasn't been done.I haven't seen any evidence within the posts I have read from you that indicate you turn a blind eye to fact. You believe in God. Nothing wrong with that.
However, if you believe you are conversing with God and only you know the answers because......well, you are talking to God; I might post back and forth with you in a similar manner as I do with those who give the impression they consider themselves to be some type of prophet.
Study is grand, however it has to be kept in context. No one speaks for God. It is theory and interpretation. Nothing more.
I don't really agree with this assessment. John's gospel in particular had a very different mindset that the other gospels. Each of the four gospels had a specific purpose. Matthew, Mark, and Luke were very much focused on the events themselves. Jesus went here, he fed those people, he crossed the lake on foot, etc. Luke was much more detailed in his account. Matthew cited a lot more Old Testament prophecies because he was writing to show that Jesus was in fact the fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies. John included much more doctrinal and theological information in his gospel and he was much more focused on the teachings and words of Jesus than he was on the activities of Jesus. That's just what was important to him. Just because no one else wrote about these things does not in any way invalidate the content. If you, me, and brotheryochanan all lived through and conducted interviews about the World Trade Center disaster on 9/11 and then each of us wrote about what we experienced and heard, the content of our writings would be very different. You would include details I would not, etc. This is not a crisis and has no negative impact on the validity of the writings.
I believe you are ignoring a primary point in that entire quote. That is the language that was spoken at the time of Christ and the language that the gospels were written in. The statement would not have left room for confusion if spoken in Aramaic. It appears that this fact has caused scholars to question the authenticity of the dialogue.
To a literalist, that wants to take every word as gospel; I’m sure this wouldn’t seem to be an oddity, or cause for concern. To a purist, simply attempting to find the truth of the source within the text; I can understand why there are problems with something that doesn't sound authentic.
I don’t see anything wrong with the interpretation and I would be inclined to agree with that take on it. And, I wouldn’t argue that you, I and anyone else would record an event from different perspectives. But I would not take one small note from a recorded event (a point that is in dispute within the body of the faith I professed) and build a doctrine around it; and then run about insinuating that anyone who does not agree is cut off from God.
I think it is haughty, arrogant and dangerous. I’m surprised that any would argue that point.Yeah, I did see that but it wasn't as interesting to me as other things I read.
"Bart D. Ehrman says that this confusion is because in Greek (the language of the gospel) the word again is ambiguous. It might mean again or a second time or from above"
This is what I don't get. Honestly I could go along with any of the translations he's listing ("born again", "born a second time", "born from above"). They all work and mean essentially what I have always understood the phrase "born again" to mean. So even though it was written in greek and even though one of the words may be slightly ambiguous, the ambiguity does not affect the actual interpretation of the passage. This is why I skimmed over it. It doesn't seem to be a big deal.Of course you would skim over the points that don't line up with your personal take. I see you told another Christian;
To make sense of Jesus' message, you have to take all of it together rather than bits and pieces. Really, if you want to do it piece by piece then you aren't a follower of who Jesus actually was. Instead you're a follower of the Jesus you've made up for yourself. It's cool with me if you want to do that. More power to you. But in that case I would not label you a Christian. That's my opinion.
I know you don't understand, but that's across the board. Every one pieces together the points they agree with. Christian and non Christian alike. One thing I consider to be non Christian is Christians telling others they aren't. How very unscriptural. imo.I do understand, actually. I just don't think I was doing that in this case. The point I was trying to make is that the three different interpretations don't change the meaning if the passage in any significant way. They can be used interchangeably. I use "born again" because I like the phrase (and also because its more common and recognizable). If I ran around saying "born from above" instead, most people wouldn't know what I was referring to.
As for my other comment you referenced, the requirement for being a Christian (part of the church or the gathering) according to numerous places in the scripture is to repent and believe in the resurrection of Christ. To respect and appreciate His teachings is not the same thing. I know what I said is not "politically correct." I just prefer to use words in context of their historical definitions. I can't dictate to anyone else how they classify themselves. I certainly agree on that point. I was just pointing out the historical context of the label.
For the record, I think it's confusing when a non-believer claims to be a Christian. It muddies the water. It's like Rachel Maddow claiming to be a member of the Tea Party and then running around doing speeches under the Tea Party umbrella. It blurs the message. What would everyone say? "There's dissension in the ranks of the Tea Party!" Clear lines are good sometimes to help simplify conversations. The truth is that there's always "dissension in the ranks" of any movement because not everyone will agree on everything. But when a Christian says there is no God, at that point I can safely say that the vast majority of the church would not agree with them on much of anything.I find it increasingly fascinating that everyone who claims to have a 'personal' relationship feels not only authorized, but obligated, to dictate terms on how others are to achieve their own 'personal' relationship.
There's no heavenly version of Walmart. Spirituality is not mass manufactured.
Perhaps it would be more effective if you identified yourself as Baptist or Pentecostal, or whatever sect is guiding your practice of exclusion. I think your posts are muddying the waters more than Melissa's. She actually gives the impression that there might be a degree of spiritual truth within that faith.That's fine. I understand that, from an agnostic's perspective, blurry is more comfortable. Like I said, I tend to go with the traditional and historical definitions of things.
You are confused on one point though. I'm not dictating how another person tries to grow spiritually. Whatever they choose to do is up to them. I can't and wouldn't force another person to do something they don't agree with. I was simply talking about the definition of a word which has historically meant something specific and which others are trying to make it mean something more general. I don't want to wake up to a world where every word which has historical significance to the church will be secularized and blurred beyond recognition. The name "Christ" will be adopted by the secular world to mean leader or speaker, "Bible" will be truly synonymous with rulebook, "resurrected" will be what we all do when we wake up in the morning... While the world honors other religions, it seeks desperately to marginalize and poke fun at mainstream Christianity. Plenty of examples of that here on this forum. It's almost a guarantee that these same people wouldn't think of doing that to a muslim. Freedom of speech is fine as long as it's not a Christian exercising it. There is a severe double standard in secular culture. So while you think I'm the bad guy for wanting to maintain historical integrity of words that are important to the church, you don't seem to notice the other people on this forum who are blatantly disrespectful and condescending. Why is that? Any thoughts?nobody read my hub on nicodemus... that is a shame.
I respect your viewpoint. However, my faith-which as a whole fundamentals call unchristian- has roots as far back as any other denomination. As a matter of fact, it predates any established baptist church as well as most other denominations arising from Calvinism (which is most of the non-catholic faiths)
As my religion, which is most certainly classified as christian, (Unless you want to claim that Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, John Adams etc... weren't Christians)has likely been around longer than yours... wouldn't it be your religion that was seeking to change the image of Christianity?One thing I enjoy about your posts is when you say 'That's fine.' I'm not asking approval or permission to have an opinion.
And, historical integrity? You must be joking. Unless, of course, you are Catholic. At which juncture I would think you might have a valid point.
What the evangelical faiths are doing, in my opinion, is searching out bones of contention; in order to think that they, alone, have a beeline on this guy god. You can pander all day about how you think the whole thing should be viewed, but as long as you do you are not staying in line with the historical nature of Christianity. That died somewhere between Luther and Calvin. It has further been flayed by the progression of ever newer sects that have developed with each new bone of contention.
As to your comments about people railing against Christianity; but oddly silent on Islam. I agree. I think that many take out their fears and frustrations on Christianity because they are afraid of offending Islam. But, I’m not one of those.
You appear to have a mouse in your pocket named Church. Because I doubt you speak for the Christian faith, I doubt you speak for your entire sect and I doubt you speak for your congregation. I don’t know whether you realize this, or not, but it is the Christians themselves that bring on the criticism of Christianity; simply by doing what you have done here.
You espouse your views as if they are the views held by all of Christendom. So, if one disagrees with you and then doesn’t take the time to account for ego and error; one would assume that your views are the views of several other billion people. To disagree with them would mean that all of Christianity is suspect.
You, I and everyone else has freedom of speech. The difference is that if you disagree with me, you disagree with me. If I disagree with you, every Christian on this site takes it personally.
Edit. I know Melissa Barrett doesn't take it personally. There are many others. I should have said every Evangelical Christian takes it personally.
Excellent! The Apostles were different men with different writing styles.
Then why is there hand-writing evidence that more than one gospel was written by the same person? Hmmm....
I haven't seen anything that corroborates this claim. What is your source for this information? Do you have a link from a reputable source?
I'm sure you've not looked either.
Over 10 years of open-minded research.
You asking for a reputable source is funny. Like you would change your belief, if I gave you. Btw- what is reputable to you? Might not be reputable to someone else? So, what's the sense? So, go look for yourself. I did.In other words, you have nothing. When you make claims, it would be good if you could come to the table with a source. It does wonders for your credibility. I'm happy to read what you present and see what it says. if you come up with something let me know. Thanks.
Actually, you would be incorrect. But, then again, like I said, you've not looked either.
I am the source, or did you not notice that. Just because you don't find me as an acceptable source, is your problem. You want confirmation, go do the research.
You defending your belief without effort to research, shows how little you understand your own life. Good for you......you must be so proud of yourself.Ok, here's how this works: If you make a claim, it's your responsibility to provide evidence of your claim. It's simple and clean. And no, your words are not evidence of anything. It doesn't need to be a big deal. I shouldn't have to search the internet looking for supporting documentation for a claim that you made.
"you obviously refuse anything that doesn't jive with your belief"
Why would I integrate your statement into my belief system when you come with nothing to back you up? It makes no sense. Do you accept things that don't "jive with your belief"? Not based on evidence here in this forum. Pot... meet kettle.I do the work to support the claim people make. I ask if they can support it, if not, then I go and research it myself and find out whether or not, it's false. This way, nothing is missed. Which, obviously you don't care about.
Try being honest with yourself sometime.
Has anyone else noticed that the bible is like a service manual? God made everything in the first few pages. The rest of the book gives all the troublshooting tips that were used by god to try and fix the whole big mess.
That's a rather simplistic and shallow interpretation. I think it's good to try looking at things from various viewpoints. Even trying out some seemingly sacrilegious ideas.
But your "argument" adds nothing to understanding. Care to try again?
There are many secrets hidden in the Bible, but it takes humility and interest to find them.Bible and Secrets in the same sentence? WOW! Now, you're stretching.
Everything you know is a secret to everybody else.
BO, do yourself a favor, pick on someone you can handle.
I wonder who that could be?
The record ain't good! true statement or a false statement
everything you know is a secret to everyone else?
got an answer?It's a false statement coming from you.
Everything I know isn't a secret to everyone else and to say that it is, is foolish. Like I said before, pick on someone you can handle.
You're certainly not honest enough to handle me or what I have to say on almost anything. You've proven that from previous conversations. You like to twist things, just like a few others on these forums.
I'm done playing with you. You actually bring nothing to the table.You certainly don't bring anything either:
you said:
-begin quotes-
"Using metaphors without understanding them I see. What else is new for the religious folks".
"Righteous? Oh, so you're above others. Good to know you speak so highly of your self. Maybe you should check on your ego sometime."
(lol kettle black is it?)
"Always funny to see the religious quoting scripture without truly understanding or knowing the metaphors used within it."
(stay tuned for more secrets by cagsil)
"Unfortunately, experiences for humans are the same, however, perceptions are not always the same, which is the difference. You may attribute specific things, as being holy or part of divinity, but apparently it comes from not knowing any better".
"Try believing in yourself and guiding your life. Right now, the only thing you are doing is perpetuating the hoax of religion and showing you don't actually understand your life".
"Again, I've said it before. You don't know what you're talking about, unless you've managed to learn each metaphor Jesus used in his parables. And, if you had, then you wouldn't actually believe in a god, but would be a master of your life".
(Jesus attributed everything in his life to the God, i'd love to hear your workaround for this)
"Jesus said- you won't know any better because of religion".
Actually he said,
Matthew 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
He was talking about the pharisees, the bread is the word of God.
Gods way = good
pharisees way = bad
understand now?
typical of all your interpretations... sloppy and ego based.
He never ever said that ALL religion was bad, but the pharisees were bad. (oooh your such the force to contend with)
"I hold very few beliefs. I've learned and am of the understanding that beliefs are not to be solidified, because change is inevitable".
"I don't spread beliefs I do hold, unless you're a close friend or a relative". roughly translated.... Every time i mention my views i end up in a room by myself.
"Actually, maybe you should look in the mirror"? (mines shows so much ego i can't actually fit both my ears in the frame, hahaha)
"Hey -----, not even you are "holy spirit filled" and as for anyone else on this planet, neither are they. Their (including you) actions alone speaks volumes. As for speaking truth? Apparently, lying to themselves is acceptable, so they don't know the difference when they are lying to others".
(yah like you know about the holy spirit)
-end quotes-
This is truly nothing just your opinion based on your egoAgain, twisting things. Skewed perception seeing things that which don't exist. You must be really proud of you. And, as for the secrets to the metaphors used, even your interpretation is skewed, due to your perception. There's no secrets about the metaphors, any person with enough initiative can learn them. The biggest problem is learning them will actually force people to check their ego and their beliefs at the door.
And, as for my ego? It's been in check for years, unlike you. Btw- I don't perpetuate the hoax like you do, so who exactly is being honest with others? Obviously you're not.I like whats obvious to you because as even you state, its only obvious to you.
somethings been checked at the door that is for sure
the fact that i quoted your endless nothings and you type another one is probably typical of whats obvious to you. Nothing twisted is quite obvious.
I enjoy being told about the mysteries of God from a "sexy celebrity' expert.Things that are obvious to one person is obvious to all, it's what creates universal truth. It's people like yourself, who like to distort things and make things appear as if not obvious, like you have done in your post.
Like I said before BO, you should pick on someone you can handle. I'm not one of them. Every time you twist things, I'll make sure it's known that you are doing it and make a point to point it out.
Again, you didn't do anything to discredit what was said. All you did was point it out, which reinforced my position. But, nice try.
And, you making fun of the hubs that make me money isn't helping your case either. Mocking me, just shows how low you will go and again shows clearly the dishonesty you walk with. Good job!mocking you lol. You mock yourself. Its easy to point that out. I guess no one cares enough for the wisdom of cagsil corp. and you certainly abandoned it yourself for the t n Asspect of quick cash.
Good to know you don't exploit women, you just advertise them i guess.
No discredit here, folks, nothing to see... just some guy tryin to profit off some t*ts.
If you ever back up some of your allegations about me, i would truly be amazed.
IF you ever care to prove that i twist things.. just type em into the box supplied and i'll be glad to correct you, again.
You are in wayyy over your headAgain, you don't nothing but show off yourself. And, claiming I mock myself? Is a perfect example that you've no clue about what's being said.
You wouldn't know wisdom? You're too busy with inflating yourself, to bother with wisdom.
Exploit women? WOW!
Actually, I can see how your skewed perception would pick the negative aspect, instead of find a positive one. You must be proud of yourself and your religion. It's a real shame you don't walk the walk of your religion. Your own actions show you don't. Always a pleasure to show others that you don't.
You really don't get it do you? I don't have to go around to the forum threads you post to to prove that you are more full of yourself than any of the words you use in your post. No need, because every time you open your mouth(post) you speak for me. See how that works? Or are you blind to that too?
You've never corrected me to begin with, because your unable to see beyond your inflated self. The post I'm replying to is filled with your hate and twisting...it's plain to see to everyone else, just not you.
Really? With you? Not in this lifetime. However, apparently you're completely unaware that you're in a hole and yet you keep digging.Cags your useless stop tryin to seem important and please stop lying. Now go exploit some more women so you have ***** money okay.
Oh hell no. You don't get to call a woman a bitch one day and then jump on someone for writing an article that "exploits" women.
I personally would rather be called sexy than a bitch any day. Hypocritical much?First off, how am I exploiting women? Are they not in the spotlight already and do so willingly? My hubs are not exploiting them, but offering readers a bio, a movies list, photos, posters and even some have quotes and salary that they make.
It's certainly not exploitation. Go learn something would you.
You assume i don't know the bible but let me assure you that k know it very well. That my friend is why i posted my "argument." In the beginning all was created. The remainder is a long drawn out story of failed attempts to rid the world of evil. God killed any and everyone to try to get the job done. However, each attempt was a temporary fix and before long, a new city popped up and needed to be destroyed. Why couldn't god make a plan that wasn't going to be filled with evil? How do you know satan won't somehow get into heaven and screw it up too? Instead of a serpant he may enter as a television preacher. Who knows???
Robert, there are some people who have read the Bible their entire lives and still don't understand it. So, when you say that you "know" the Bible, after your comments, I'm not impressed with the lie and self-deception.
lone77star - I understand your perspective on robertm12's rather brief and witty 'troubleshooting manual' comment. Let me say this: some people can be very succinct in just a few words. We all communicate in different ways.
I actually rather agree with his definition. I believe the Bible is a manual, a guidebook, on how to live. How to live a good life, one which is led by the love exemplified by the character of Jesus. It's been said that 'it is easy to be a holy man living on top of a mountain'. Not so easy down here in the real world. Many need that guidebook, until such time as they don't need it anymore and can live by instinct alone.Thanks, couturepopcafe. "Manual" I get and agree with, but his "The rest of the book gives all the troublshooting tips that were used by god to try and fix the whole big mess," seems a bit thin on logic and respect.
Satan cannot get into heaven, contrary to Robertm12's suggestion that it might happen. That "source" of everything evil might be none other than our own egos. And ego is a physical construct -- pseudo self -- and vulnerable because it includes some of the same stuff that the rest of creation contains -- things like time and energy. These won't fit in heaven, because heaven doesn't consist of these worldly things. Ego will not fit through the gate, because it is too "fat" with physicality.
That's why we need to shed our egos in order to get there. Ego is the self we need to deny.
Very nice, Naomi. Now, what does "born again" mean? Doesn't it help to understand things more completely?
Faith is transcendent. It is far superior to mortal "belief." But how do you get to "faith?"
If you believe in something, but that belief is wrong, how do you ever know?
The answer is humility in the search for Truth. If you think you "know it all" already, then you only trip yourself up. Don't stop looking for answers.
Yes, you found Jesus. That's the first big step. Now, keep searching. There really is more to find. And with those discoveries, you can be a far better witness.Really? And, how did YOU come to that conclusion, when the rest of the common sense world says that faith is no better than belief?
"The rest of the common sense world" according to the great and all-seeing Cags?
You make me laugh. But I suppose I shouldn't be so unkind to someone who cannot see. (Hint: not talking about your Homo sapiens body.)No, you're actually attempting to make a reference to "spirituality", which is completely based on mysticism. And, mysticism decades ago was debunked as an individual being dishonest.
Thank you for showing off your true colors.There is one spirit and that is of God.
Mysticism was debunked because it is not of the spirit of God.
Thats no great secret but one has to make the distinction for their to be greater accuracy in the statement.
close thoughnot like your jokes
mine holds accuracyYa know you really shouldn't just come out and say things without some sort of proof.
Otherwise your just spoutin.
In school if you handed in a thesis with
this assignment is a joke
you would have failed
so i will have to give you an F on your 3 word answer.
wouldn't want you gettin in a corporate knot.
I hope I haven't come off sounding like a know it all. I am simply learning just like the rest of you.
And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.
Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.> Matt 11
1Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
2It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones...
25But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
26And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32Remember Lot's wife.
33Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.> Luke 17
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. You get to faith by reading and speakiing out the Word. When you act on the word you are acting out your faith.
Being 'born again' requires someone to first die, something which seems to be forgotten in most cases.
It is not a form of words, it is not always an instant event, in fact it rarely would be an instant event.
It would probably be more relevant to state that the 'cross over' from alive in the world but dead in the spirit of unbelief, to dead to the world but alive in the spirit of belief, takes time, it's a 'walk of faith'.
As in life, with birth, there is a point of conception for the new life, and a period of gestation before the created starts their walk towards eternity.
As in death though, the 'death' of the new born believer is instant, but unlike physical death, that believer will probably give credence to the 'ghosts' of the old ego that loiters in memory, as their new born spirit gains power and strength.
All this time the world will attempt to destroy the small faith held by the new born spirit with ridicule and attack, as seen in these forums, for those attacking, have fun, your attacks are futile, faith can rarely be shaken, for those of belief, stay strong and focus on the goal, coming to the fullness of Christ.
Johnaguasilver - you have a good understanding of faith. The fullness of Christ is love, right?
The fullness of Christ is the total overcoming of the enemy allowing freedom from the worlds 'rule' and control over the negative elements who would keep folk down.
When Christ walked into the sinners den, they (the sinners) would have felt His authority over the spirits that worked in them, and His Holy Spirit would have assumed authority over the place.
It's like when the alpha male or female walks into the room (mini example) and everyone knows that this has happened and although nothing is said, all are conscious that 'the man' (or 'the woman')has arrived.
True authority over circumstances does not require force or belligerence to control the spiritual atmosphere.
Of course the nearer someone gets to the fullness of Christ, the less they fall to the temptation to exercise that authority over ordinary folk, and only use it to quell negative spirits and people.
Christ was the first and ONLY 'anointed one' who defeated the power of the enemy, first speaks for itself, only, because having defeated the enemy, no further conquest was called for, the enemy was defeated and stays defeated.
We need to assume that authority, extended over us as an inheritance, and use it to subdue those who try to negate Christ's authority, therefore releasing the 'captives' who believe the lies the enemy puts out.I like your style aquasilver. Thanks for contributing to my forum post.
Pure conjecture. You wouldn't have a clue what they actually felt when they spoke with Jesus. But, nice try.
Don't imagine it would be less than what happens when a Holy Spirit filled person walks into a sinners den today, and I can know what the cause and effect of a superior power over an inferior power will be, now, then or in the future....
But I like you anyway!Your delusions of grandeur are getting funnier and funnier. Superior power?
Little wonder you people cause so many conflicts. Disgusting how arrogant and proud of yourself you are. I thought that was a sin? Guess the rules don't apply to you.
11th Commandment: "Do as I say, not as I do."And you're not being arrogant, E.G.?
How do you know John is not merely displaying "humble confidence." That's quite different from arrogance, but they look quite alike.
I've enjoyed a few of your insights over the months, but I think EG hit the nail on the head when he critiqued this post.
Walked on any water recently, have you?Mark will always misinterpret, which is OK, and understood.
"Don't imagine it would be less than what happens when a Holy Spirit filled person walks into a sinners den today, and I can know what the cause and effect of a superior power over an inferior power will be, now, then or in the future...."
Where did I mention ME?
For the record I have witnessed and experienced this occurring, but do not expect others who have not, to understand or wish to understand that Gods Holy Spirit is ALL powerful and subordinates all opposing spirits.
Sorry if that makes you irate or increases your scepticism, but as any Holy Spirit filled believer will tell you, it's simply a fact.
As to the use of the word 'superior', it is merely expressing the difference between a cruise missile and a bow and arrow.
Clearly the cruise missile is superior to the bow and arrow.
Step outside of prejudice and consider what is stated.I think asking me to step outside of my prejudice is somewhat humorous. Tell me, what the devil is a sinner's den? That sounds suspiciously like prejudice to me. And oddly self rightous, since I was under the impression that Christianity teaches that we are all sinners.
I have no doubt that if a law abiding citizen walked into a meth lab they would be regarded with suspicion. That doesn't equate to being filled with the Holy Spirit. That equates to being outside of one's element.
I do realize that fundmental Christians love to believe that the Holy Spirit is causing me grief of some kind. Just so you know, there is nothing that you, or anyone, can say to make me irate. I don't particularly care for holier than thou pious bs, but it does not make me irate. It makes me sad at times, but I don't take the comments personally. I simply feel sad that there are people who believe themselves better than their fellow man and pensive that there are people in the real world that have to put up with this behavior in everyday life.I think a sinners den would be a den where sinners hung out, people who deliberately did things considered sin.
Sin is anything which separates us from God, and yes we all are sinners by choice or by accident or ignorance.
Bad analogy if you don't mind me saying, first you say "a law abiding citizen" which has no relationship to a Holy Spirit filled believer, let along Christ, who would never be out of His element.
Being spirit filled is nothing to do with being better than anyone, it's to do with the spirit in you being stronger than the spirit in the world, and anybody who thought they were better than another, would almost certainly not be empowered by God to do His will on earth.So, wouldn't the logical conclusion be that anywhere man resided is a sinner's den? I'm afraid any other conclusion reflects self righteous blindness.
Any analogy would produce the same outcome. It is simply a self rightous belief that comes to a different conclusion. Good is good. Bad is bad. You don't need to believe in being filled with the holy spirit to recognize the difference
Agreed. Unfortunately, it has been my observation that those who claim special status by being christian think otherwise.No not at all, the local Rabbi's house could be a place where no deliberate sin (rebellion)was happening, it would not be a sinners den, but there would still be some unplanned for sin happening, the key factor is whether someone is in rebellion to God, all rebellion is sin, lots of other things are also, but rebellion is the key factor.
But you do need to be Holy Spirit filled to MAKE a difference.
Though that is not strictly correct, if a higher spiritual NON HOLY power entered, they would also dominate or change the atmosphere, and I have also seen that occur before I came to faith, but where the Holy Spirit of God treads, demons beware!
I too have enjoyed insights from you, Emile, but you're standards of logic are not perfect.
E.G. doesn't know the difference between arrogance and humble confidence. And he is coming from a highly prejudiced position (I once told him I believe in evolution, and he called me a "liar," rather than ask how it might be possible). Arrogance and humble confidence do look a lot alike and people who are full of ego find it impossible to tell the difference.
"Walked on any water recently, have you?" I have a feeling that you would look upon any such miracle as fakery and dismiss it entirely -- explaining it away with lame logic. Is there a touch of contempt in your question? I tell you of a very real miracle, but now feel bad for casting pearls before swine. Pigs don't understand the value of pearls, especially pearls of wisdom.Oh, the insults have started. That's typical when people are called out for fabricating stories.
I may be swine, or not. But, I'd need someone whose judgement I trusted to say it before I ran to the mirror to see.
The problem with people who think they can do, or have seen, miracles is that they completely disregard the fact that there has to be independent verification. Foolish claims that someone was raised from the dead, with absolutely no proof, are as ridiculous as if someone claimed they parted traffic with their mind. It's childish chatter, unworthy of being brought up in an adult conversation.
No one, I repeat, no one is against the idea of proof. We would all jump with joy. Fantasy has its place, but not in a spiritual conversation.
There is an entertainment forum for that.
Outstanding, John. Well put. I've never heard any Christian put it quite like that. Refreshing perspective.
I think I'm still dying a slow death. I keep picking off the fleas of that earthly disease. Still crawling, spiritually. But I'm patient (and yet impatient, too). Enjoying the growth, but longing for the wings.Let me get this straight, you're looking forward to death and to leave this world because of your religious beliefs?
Troubled - I believe the 'death' referred to in Christianity is a death of the negative spirit, the spirit of what they call 'unrighteousness'. It has nothing to do with death of the flesh. An understanding of positivity which can only come from a spirit of love, which releases the tendency to 'sin' (make really bad decisions) will bring one into the state which the Christians call 'saved'.
Wow, TroubledMan. Sorry you got so confused.
There is a big difference between death of ego and death of the temporary Homo sapiens body. Ego is permanent unless we actively do something about it. Death of the body is inevitable. And, for the time being, we can always pick up another one.
Perhaps you were not paying attention. Ego is the self we must deny.
Longing for physical death is tantamount to suicide and that is perhaps the most egotistical thing anyone could ever do -- entirely selfish.
But we must not be too attached to this physical existence, either. Physical death will come of its own accord and in its own time.
While we have this life, we must honor and respect it for it is a precious gift.
Why do people just blindly believe what's written in their bibles?
Dont people realise that half of it is missing and what you're reading in your bibles is hardly the complete truth, more like what a bunch of religious folks decided you should believe. Many original and contradictory items were removed and the early christians even doubted the divinity of christ and the nature of the realtionship between jesus and god
Have a look at the first council of Nicea for example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_NicaeaThat's what faith us believing in things not yet seen. Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.
getitrite, ... If you were a fish in farmer Jones' pond, a fish out in the ocean which is larger than you (such as a shark) could be only a figmant of your imagionation, ... until it eats you.
What a feeble attempt at "wisdom" Jerami!
Please work on that, because it is on a subordinate level as to what I perceive REAL wisdom to be.
And knowing your worldview, it is obvious that you are only attempting to correct me, because of my straightforward scrutiny of your foolish beliefs...and my unwillingness to accept and respect your willful ignorance as a rational choice.
But DO try to go a little deeper...
getitrite
I'm sorry but I gotta go lay down for a while ... my body is hurting.
and I have a few things to do before I go to my Sons house for BBQ later.
SOooo LATERIt's amazing how one's statement of faith can fire up so much emotional response! I agree, Jesus saves and no one can come to the Father except through Him. No one else died for sinners but Jesus and He deserves all the praise and glory! Bring on the hate.....
I completely agree..., Jesus is the ONLY way, the truth and the life. I don't care what other people will say.. Putting Christ in our heart and admitting that we need Him for our salvation doesn't require any rocket science explanation or methodology, crap all those... Even science cannot explain the existence of universe and entire galaxy... Believing God is purely about having FAITH on something that is unseen but believing they exist it's like our human faith of believing there is oxygen on the air that we breathe every they yet no one had ever seen oxygen and yet scientist confirmed its existence... Lastly, in the future on our death bed when our life is about to end I want you people to think of 1 question, "Where will u spend your eternity, Heaven or Hell?" .. Salvation is given by God by His grace through our faith in Christ Jesus who served as an ultimate sacrifice for mankind to be saved....
Ironically that guy failed to save his own *ahem*. I would rather follow someone who knows how to save his own *ahem* first, than a guy who talks goody-goody fantasy stories and at the end claims he died for me and others , when in fact he was weakling who failed to save his own *ahem* ya know.
Think you missed part of the account, know you missed meeting with Him, try to save your own *ahem* before you criticise Christ.
Oh don't worry about my *ahem*, ask that guy to be more powerful next time before he gets kicked his *ahem* by mere mortals and hope that likes of you don't defend him in delusion for the sake of religion.
Skyfire, you got it all upside down. It was no accident that Jesus found himself on the cross. That was his mission. He mentioned that several times before he went to Jerusalem to fulfill that goal. This wasn't someone else doing something to him against his will. This was him purposefully placing himself in harm's way to inspire us to give up our most prized possession. That makes him a hero, not a victim.
The real delusion is thinking that you are merely and only a Homo sapiens body. That's funny and sad all at the same time. But the Homo sapiens body is not the most prized possession. Ego is.
The lesson was one of humility and forgoing attachment -- especially attachments to this physical reality.
The lesson was one of helping us take off the rather formidable and yet invisible mask that we wear -- that of ego. This is the self we must deny, but you are clinging to it. The death on the cross was the level of commitment our spiritual brother had for our spiritual reawakening. Once that's done, we no longer need these temporary, but beautiful bodies.
Jesus could have saved himself but He CHOSE NOT TO FOR YOU ! If you were the only sinner on earth, He would have died for you alone. He could have called the angels to his aid during his crucifixion to make himself more comfortable and he could have just gotten down from the cross, but if he did, you and I and everyone that has ever existed would be in Hell. So thank that man called Jesus for WILLINGLY suffering and dying for you.
1) It's not dying when you're a supernatural being and spring back to life 3 days later. Jesus gave nothing up, he sacrificed nothing.
2) Jesus is saving us from HELL right? A Hell that he and his Father created, own and operate.
3) Why did Jesus have to die in order to forgive people? I can forgive people just fine without finding a group of Romans to nail me to a bit of wood. If the answer has something to do with sin needing a "sacrificial lamb" than may I ask why you serve a barbaric god that demands blood be spilled in order to forgive your petty transgressions?Ok, 1) Jesus was fully man when He was crucified. He felt real pain. He was spat upon and suffered unspeakable torture. 2) Yes, God created Hell for the fallen angels that followed Lucifer. Hell was never created for us. 3) Jesus took our place. We as sinners deserve death and Hell but Jesus was the only perfect, sinless person that could have been that sacrifice for us. God is so holy and perfect that our "goodness" is like filthy rags to Him. Since you have so many questions, why don't you ask Him? I'm sure He doesn't mind your sarcasm and skeptism, He longs to talk to you and have a relationship with you. Ask Him. It's all in the Bible too. If you don't understand it, He will give you understanding.
Hmmm. Is He as condescending as you are?
1) The question was never whether he felt pain, the question was whether he actually sacrificed anything. Given that he returned to life in the same body 3 days later nothing was permanently sacrificed.
2) If we were not meant to go to Hell why would God decide to send us there?
3) Explain to me how it is possible to DESERVE an eternity of punishment. As for asking Jesus, I was raised as a Christian and spent many a night crying out for answers, never got any despite my sincerity. Seeking my own answers led me to reject Christianity when reading the Bible in its entirety caused it to fall apart under the slightest application of logic, skepticism and moral fortitude.Who says he returned in the same body. There were many who could not see him. The body means little except as a tool to aid in our reawakening as spiritual beings. Like a driver who has taken a long drive, they eventually get out of their car. The question is whether or not they will be awake when they get out of their used-up bodies.
Yes, Jesus sacrificed a very real and tangible body. The lesson was one of inspiring us to give up our most prized possession -- ego. When we give up ego, we are sacrificing the life of this world for the more permanent life of the spirit.
God does not decide on hell; that is our own individual decision. You make your decision and God only gives you want you ask for. Kinda nice that way. A real bummer for those who choose poorly. I feel for the poor souls. If I make it to the decision for heaven (and that's still a work in progress), I might petition God for me to go help those in hell.
Deserve? Like I said, if someone decides not to take heaven, they get what's left. I get the impression that the mission to save these spiritual children of God is not an infinite (open ended) mission. Once the troops have gone, there will be no one left to protect the bright and shining integrity of civilization. All will likely fall into the "logic" of victim-perpetrator -- what is biblically referred to as "wailing and gnashing" (blood feuds).
As for your "sincere" asking, perhaps it was not sincere enough. If you held an "I dare you" attitude or anything similar while you asked, then you really loused it up. You cannot "wish" or "want" an answer, for that will only give you a lack of an answer; i.e. you would be creating only "want" or "lack."
Shallow logic, lack of imagination and the bias of doubt found in skepticism are not a good foundation upon which to make decisions."Who says he returned in the same body."
The Bible does. In the story Thomas actually puts his hands in the wounds that Christ sustains on the Cross AND the body is missing when they go to the tomb. This means it is intended as a bodily resurrection of Christ's original body.
"The body means little except as a tool to aid in our reawakening as spiritual beings."
There is no evidence that a human being, or any other animal, can survive without a body, or at the very least a brain. Several centuries of science have shown us how important the brain is to who and what we are and no evidence has been found of a spirit.
"The question is whether or not they will be awake when they get out of their used-up bodies."
This analogy could work if you were talking about the brain, but what you're talking about is a spirit, something completely unproven and borderline debunked by modern science.
"Yes, Jesus sacrificed a very real and tangible body."
No he didn't, because the same body came back to life, so it's not a sacrifice.
"that is our own individual decision."
The Bible disagrees with you. Even Jesus says that God is the judge. He instructs his disciples not to fear those that can harm the body but to fear God because God can throw them BODY AND SOUL into Hell. In one instance depicting Judgement Jesus suggests that those who feed the poor and help their fellow man will be told to enter into heaven as faithful servants while those who did not will be TOLD to depart into everlasting fire.
Furthermore the Bible repeatedly describes God as both a King and a Judge and Revelation only drives it home that God sends people to Hell. So what you're saying is not scriptural, its apologetic nonsense.
"they get what's left."
Why would the only options be eternal agony and eternal paradise? Does God not see that murderers and someone who, let's say, follows Islam instead of Christianity, do not deserve the SAME fate? Not to mention the fact that according to the Bible Heaven and Hell are not a human choice as I showed above.
"perhaps it was not sincere enough."
Or perhaps no one was listening. And trust me, when every time you can't locate your loved ones you feel a deep fear that you've been left behind by the rapture to suffer through tribulation you go to bed at night offering sincere prayers asking for help. I also fail to see why Jesus cares about sincerity or doubt, he didn't care when Thomas doubted.
"Shallow logic, lack of imagination and the bias of doubt found in skepticism are not a good foundation upon which to make decisions."
Logic and skepticism are two of the greatest tools to discovering truth. I'm curious as to what the hell "shallow" logic is. Pretty sure logic is logic. AS for doubt, I've said it before this way, The journey to the truth BEGINS with doubt. If something you believe can withstand doubt and skepticism than there's a greater chance of it being true but you have to be willing to follow those doubts and admit to yourself your could be wrong.
That's what you've been taught to believe. It doesn't make it true.
1) Get real. No one from this forum were alive or born during that time. That "saves you" stuff doesn't apply to anyone of us.
2) You call him lord on one side and he choose not to help himself. Those who don't value their own life with excuse of saving life of others in deluded way with some mumbo jumbo story - are weakling thinking they're doing this for some cause. That's lame.
3) He being son of gawd or lord himself needs help from angels ? Awesome.
4) considering 2) and 3) you call that guy savior, have fun in your delusion.
5) I was not there to witness same applies to you, his death has nothing to do with saving my life.
6) Save from whom, fellow mortal humans. He failed miserably saving his own life. Get real.
7) Keep that saving soul and "just for you" to yourself and similar deluded like yours.Skyfire:
(1) No "one" was alive then? Perhaps you mean "no body." We were all around in the spirit at that time, whether or not we had a different body. And oh yes, that "save you" stuff applies to you, too. You either choose heaven or take what's left over, but the choice is yours.
(2) The cross was his mission, planned long in advance. He forced their hand, eliciting their ire all to inspire us with his sacrifice. His was a heroic action. He was no victim (for more, see my hub on "Was Jesus a Victim?").
(3) Isn't teamwork wonderful?
(4) Ah, but you will suffer in your delusion. These temporary Homo sapiens bodies aren't exactly invulnerable, but spirit is. And your immortal true self without the bright and shining civilization and possibly without Homo sapiens bodies will suffer a great deal. And that will be an eternity if no one comes to rescue your incorrigible *ahem*.
(5) Okay, you might have a blazing misunderstood, here. Saving your body, yes I agree, has nothing to do with it. Saving your immortal true self, well that's the whole reason for these Homo sapiens bodies. That's why God destroyed most of them (Noah) to protect that game plan. You try to save your ego, so you lose your immortal life. Not very smart.
(6) Again, you confuse your temporary, frail body with your immortal, albeit sleeping spirit.
(7) You got it. So, why the **** are you on this forum? Perhaps you were deluded into thinking this was something other than a forum on "Jesus Saves." Why don't you go home; this is not your turf. Why don't you "keep that" delusion stuff "to yourself and similar deluded like yours." Works for me.You say I'm wrong and you give many reasons why I am wrong along with false accusations and insults, you have belittled me ridiculed me which are of no matter to me.....
I say what if I am right and you are wrong when it all comes down to the rapture and you are left behind ..... what if I am right? I pray for each and everyone of you and your salvation.Naomi. You ask what if you are right. This rapture thing is another recent belief within Christianity. It wasn't until the mid 1800's that this idea was first brought up. Don't you think if it was truly biblical that someone would have mentioned it somewhere in history before that time?
Take time out to do some study on the history of your faith. You'll be amazed with what you find.Very interesting. That link went nowhere. Kind of like the arguments that people are raised from the dead. You do realize that you have to post a valid link, if you are trying to make a point?
If you have evidence, please give me a good link to review it. Thanks.
Above you will see documentation of a man raised from the dead by Reinhard Bunkee. There is medical documentation that he was pronounced dead. Three days later his wife took him to a meeting of Reinhard and this man was completely healed and restored scars healed and all.
As far as the first translation of the Bible. The first English hand written translation of the Bible was produced by John wyclffe in 1380AD. I believe you are once again mistaken EmileSmithswigglesworth has several documented cases of raising people from the dead also however I have not yet been able to produce them. I work for a living so I have limited time to search but given time I could find them I believe.
Naomi, I appreciate what you are trying to do. However, I'll need proof outside of a sect that buys into the tom foolery of a preacher.
If there was something to this Wigglesworth guy, more than a sad attempt to make a living by taking advantage of the hopes and dreams of others; we would already have the information. He was a circus act, by everything I have read.
Actually, the first recorded translation of the "bible" occurred around 132 B.C. There were translations before that, but the dates are uncertain. That's right, people were messing with the bible before there was a "bible" and certainly before Christ was born.
The comment had nothing to do with what books are in your Bible. It referred to the notion of the Rapture. That is interpretation. Fairly new, historically speaking.
I know what your sect teaches you. It is common to all cults. Believe in them, and only them. But, the trtuh is out there Naomi. Seek and you will find. Don't be afraid to open your eyes and look further than the wall your personal religion has asked you to raise against the world at large.There is nothing wrong with new revelation. Growth is a prime directive of Christianity. The old revelations were not compared to the original meanings of the original words, the dupings of Catholicism were prominent but today many christians are enjoying word study and hebrew meanings and getting into the word of God in a new and different way than did the old school. so to coin a phrase.
New revelation is all around and its coming to a church near youNo. New interpretations, to suit fancies of your sect happen frequently. Calling it revelation is absurd. And I won't pretend that pentecostal, literalist and/or bible thumping christianity is anything other than a stagnant excuse for prejudice and hatred.
I was going to ask if you realized that saying something doesn't make it so; but then I remembered who posted that. It is, alas, a truth that might forever elude you.
I was going to ask you the same question
but then i realized how redundant that would be.
by the way, is this a new revelation to you or have you know it from birth?My God, it's like watching a third grader pull the braids of a girl he has a crush on.
I just met you BO. How in the world could I have known from birth that you don't understand simple concepts? Do I look like a psychic?
Oh. You can't see me. I can tell you, I don't.emile - see, you cant understand things you read from the written word.
'saying something doesn't make it so' is the obvious topic and further clarity is needed i see.
Is 'saying something doesn't make it so' a new revelation to you? (did it come at some later time in your life) or did you know that from birth? (when a child, nobody taught you, the saying was ingrained in your mind). If it is a new revelation then you better get rid of it, because as you say, new revelation sucks and is not to be trusted.
How does one look psychic?
I see why you prefer the box.
More powerful...I know that with my belief my *ahem* is gonna be saved when the trumpets blow. He will be back much more powerful. He will rock your world. So... Re think how you criticize someone who COULD have saved his hide but did not , for our collective....*ahem*
Yes Jesus saves! I am not ashamed to acknowledge that I need him in my life. Jesus is the only true way to salvation.
We were talking about the first translation that has the Revelation in it. That could not have been written prior to Christ's birth as it records a vision given to the Apostle John by Jesus while John was exhiled. It consists of letters to the church's of Asia and many symbolic warnings of things to come. The one you speak of could not have included the New Testament. Thanks for helping out though Melissa.
We were talking about the first translation that has the Revelation in it. That could not have been written prior to Christ's birth as it records a vision given to the Apostle John by Jesus while John was exhiled. It consists of letters to the church's of Asia and many symbolic warnings of things to come. The one you speak of could not have included the New Testament. Thanks for helping out though Melissa.
Jesus saves!
Has he saved enough to buy a V8 cloud yet?
Part of an old Jewish joke I heard once about the boss's son.I don't deserve anything I have today, and the Bible says those who are not chosen won't understand. I don't have to defend God, because His word does that already. Wether you belive it or not is up to you, but to deny it is another story. It is very clear to the people that it is suposed to be clear to. I would never deny Jesus as my Lord and Savior. He Is King. Take it or leave it, but first read the Bible and be very sure it does not make sense. You have nothing to loose and everything to gain!
Have a great weekendLOL
U do realize what you said contradicts itself. Right?
Those not chosen will not understand?
The people it is supposed to be clear to?
How can we "take it or leave it" if it will only be clear to those chosen?
See how that makes no sense, Preacher Man?
More self-righteous nonsense.paradox eludes you also i see
read 2 corinthians 3 and 4 and be enlightened!
or notNo - I understand the obvious contradiction just fine thank you.
I am just not so scared I need to pretend it is not there.
Naomi, not to be pushy... but could we get back to the question of your advice potentially killing someone? What are your views on a diabetic reading your hub, throwing away their insulin in favor of prayer... then dying from it? Reasonably, it could happen. Are you okay with that possibility?
hmmm
lets see
someone who doesnt know God, throwing away their insulin... not in favor of... someone who knows God, throwin away their insulin, kinda in favor of.
But
Just because someone believes in God does not mean they have all his powers. For instance, a christian who is just a weekend christian and doesn't have a strong connection to God, who hasn't put God first and who is doesn't have enough faith to believe in Gods will for their life to be cured, should not throw away the insulin.
A proper pattern for all christians, would be to keep taking the insulin, use the situation of affliction to focus on God and get the relationship happening and then allow God to tell them when to throw the insulin away.
To just throw the insulin away without understanding the will of God is tempting God, which is a no no, because Christianity is all about the fathers instruction in all areas of the christians life. Until we have the instruction, we better not act hastily.That's a truly remarkable gift you have there brotheryochanan. You typed a 175 word answer in which you said absolutely nothing. Kudos.
You .... pushy...never
. Melissa I have since edited my Hub. Thanks for pointing that out to me. I added a disclaimer to it to include anyone wanting to be healed and wanting to excercise their faith in healing is highly recommended to seek a medical physician prior to stopping any medication that is perscribed in treating their illness. This only makes sense to have the monitoriing of a licensed physician checking your blood work making sure you are on the right track and doing the right thing. The problem is that some people are just not there yet with their faith and need to study the scriptures enough to get them into their heart. You have to know that you know.
Thanks Melissa for pushing on this as I have heard of people doing just that and they ended up very sick or dead and that would be absolutely awful and I certainly do not want that on my conscience. I pray that no one reading my Hub or this forum will throw wisdom out the window acting without using the wisdom that God gave us throught medical doctors. Also Melissa thanks for contributing to my forum.Naomi, I may not agree with your faith but I don't question your right to express it. (Although doing so obviously leaves your beliefs open for discussion). In this case we have a ~similar~ situation. I practice herbology, which also relies largely on anecdotal evidence (not a lot of independent scientific studies on the effectiveness of most of the herbs) When dealing with anything relating to health, extra caution needs to be taken. Its the whole ~Firstly do no harm~ rule.
I personally cannot not say whether God personally interacts to heal individuals or what the individual needs to do to receive this healing. I was just keeping the first rule in mind.
In short, not attacking your religion at all, just being practical.
HAGD.I appreciate your honesty and would be interested in information on herbs. Do you have hubs written in reference to herbs? I know of many many cases of healing under the faith of God but one that sticks out right now is a good friend of mine that attends the church I go to who was diagnosed with MS and was told she would never have children and she was healed and her medical doctor confirmed it and it is now twenty five years late and she has two beautiful children and is symptom free and doctors can find no trace of MS in her body. It is awesome what my God can do.
Nice to hear you practicing herbology Melissa. I too am a believer in natural healing. Whatever comes from God, especially from trees and herbs the can cure, rhyme perfectly with the human body, the temple of God. We have a dynamic body God created to heal itself, through our immune system. That is where antioxidants out of fruits, vegetables, nitric oxide, etc. of natural origin come in to keep us healthy. When we are attuned to God, in harmony with His words and in Christ, the better our body receives and process antioxidants in helping us heal. I am presently using green tea, grape seeds or resveratrol, VCO or virgin coconut oil, nitric oxide, redwine, Vit C, calcium, Sun Chorella, grapefruits, etc. and I do brisk walking every other day to keep me healthy. Yes, I very much believe that faith can heal as Christ has healed many in their faith, and that includes me having undergone angioplasty in 2002 and a mild stroke in 2010. All these, I believe, for a reason.
I know that some people may find views about God boring, Naomi. Many times, though, for those who still doubt the truth about God and His love for us, do we realize that we can get confused and get lost focusing our efforts more on material things in this life which may just be reduced to nothingness and may all become meaningless as we come to pass?
While we know how important living in this life is to many, the body of man itself deserves respect and to be treated with dignity as man has been created in the image and likeness of God, his body sacred as it is God's temple. Did it ever occur to you that God has reminded you countless times that this life is only temporary, in other words, a borrowed life. Soon, we will be called as God may someday tell us, 'You're time is up Buddy." And life can only become shorter as time pass? And how foolish people may become if until now we fail to see in our hearts and in their spirit the truth about God and the truth in His words and in Christ Jesus, after all the many recorded astonishing miracles attributed to the belief in God and Christ Jesus? How can we see God if we have a hardened heart and spirit? How can we see God when He is in spirit, an unfathomable spirit, beyond man's human wisdom and intelligence, and all knowing as He has no Beginning and no End. Even Christ Jesus is now in Spirit. I will not be surprised at all if other people by divine will and purpose or design may be granted to see him in body or in spirit as in Matthew 19:26, Jesus said, "... with God, all things are possible," and being the true Son of God, and one with God, with him, all things are possible. I am not surprised at all how many gifted people may have claimed to have heard God, the Holy Spirit, and/or have seen Jesus Christ, Mother Mary, the angels or even other people's deceased love ones as they opened their spirit or have seen a great light in Near Death Experiences or NDE. God is spirit, so is Christ Jesus, upon his death and resurrection in body body and spirit. Only a spiritual person and a person of strong faith may be able to understand whatever truth there may be in this, and in every miracle or revelation that God may allow man to see. For fraudulent claims, God will reveal all these to man in due time through the Holy Spirit. Don't you feel his presence by merely looking around us and see beyond the wonders of His love for us with the beauty and awesome creation He has made around man, and inside of man with the many gifts and talents man has? And that counts your intelligence my friend. Are not all these deserving of man's gratitude for God's goodness and greatness? How can one know God if he does not open his heart and spirit to Him? How can one see God if he has not even learned to love others but only himself? Do we really need a miracle, a revelation in each one of us just as what God has done to Saint Paul as he saw the resurrected Christ before his very eyes that caused him not to see and remain blind for three days before ever feeling the sudden urge and adrenalin rush in his veins to become a true witness to God's words and the truth in Christ Jesus and his light? Do we really need to see how many saints and faithfuls have never feared death under torture and persecution while they became willing instruments of God's love for man? Do we really need to see how people have been healed of incurable illness because of their faith in Christ Jesus? Do we really have to see how God has made man see through the great annals of history that no evil in this world did ever last as we have seen many a dictators and conquerors of men fall and perish, and otherwise humbled, as they met their death, having themselves caused death to many? And sadly, many died in their guilt, whether they repented or not, is not God to judge and will repay as in Romans 12:14-21? Do we really need to see why those who go astray and refused to see the light of God end up having a troubled and stressed up life, as they go through a real life experience of hell as early as in this life? Do we still have to ponder why until now science has only unproven theories to share about evolution with Charles Darwin himself admitting his limitations and weakness for further proof on his theory, the existence of man and the universe, or why until now, science cannot even prove why there is consciousness of the spirit in NDE even with a lifeless or a brain dead body, why there are miracle cures through faith in Christ Jesus, why carbon dating accuracy is still in question, why despite the many alleged alien and UFO sightings, there are still no proof of any life outside of our planet, why until now there is no denial or verification from NASA about the recently discovered dwarf star Elenin which has been reported by some observers to be moving on a path of its own and with some analysts saying that this may have been causing some unusual calamities around the world with its own gravitational pull of the earth, and more? Or has science become part of an evil design by some to veer man away from the truth about God and the truth about Christ Jesus, instead of being an instrument of God's love for man?
St. Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 3:16-23,
“Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is sacred, and you are that temple.
“Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a “fool” so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight.
And in 1 Corinthians 1:19, Saint Paul in Christ,
“For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
For is not God’s wisdom greater than human wisdom?
If we have to die today, what will we ask our Creator to justify an extension of our life?
And how can we ever ask for an extension when we have not truly believed in Him or have just put Him on the sidelines while we have tried to satisfy our own cravings?
May God grant us the wisdom to see the light of Christ in this world, as we learn to collectively pray, that we may focus our life in the love of God through the love of man, whatever religious or political beliefs we may have, that we may unite and learn to sacrifice our 'self,' by becoming 'selfless' as we try to help one another through our love for each other, as God has shown His love and mercy on us all, and with this change in our hearts and spirit, we may see true peace and happiness to reign in this life, and use science, technology, our talents and all material resources for the love of man, that in all these God may be glorified, as He is so worthy to be glorified in His never ending goodness to those who remain faithful and obedient to Him. And by His love and mercy, we may be saved from the fires of Hell and from the possibility of an impending doom as we see crazy things that are already happening in this world.Well done - you win the "Most condescension in a single post" award.
What drivel. Let me know when you get down off you self righteous high horse and become "selfless,"
No wonder your religion causes so many conflicts.yes, God destroying the wisdom of man is cause to launch those nukes!
That was a very hateful perception of a very lovely speech. Your perception and height of ego is what causes wars. That speech certainly did not. And speaking of condescension, I don't think you understood what was typed there. There was no hatred, no forcing. NO. Your sloppy interpretation of Edwins post is what causes wars that and the big ego which forces you to comment so rudely is fuel for your narcissism.
If you want to thank me for my comment, just remember not to start a war.
Thank you for so elliquently putting into words what I was unable to say adequately. I can see you have a true relationship with God being filled with his spirit and His love. It is a treasure to have you come and post on my forum. I welcome your insight anytime. God bless you in your endeavors!!
It is in the light of Christ that we gain true strength in this life, as he has become One with the Father; hence, in him, we see God's love in his words of truth, hope, mercy and forgiveness, that we too may become one with him, as we die to our 'self' and fully trust in his words. In 1 Corinthians 2:4-5, St. Paul says in all humility, devoid of eloquence or superior wisdom, but with love and in truth in the spirit and with the crucified Christ, “My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power.”
What a pile of drivel this is!
No gods, just myths and gullible people.
my believe is, that Jesus was born and remained a mortal man. He was God's prophet. His message was clear, he never said that we can get to God only through him. God endowed him as every of his prophet with the power to perform miracles. All we are responsible for our deeds according to which we will be judged, the fact that I believe Jesus was a prophet would not save me, if i was really a bad person. God is the most merciful and in this i put my trust.
Denying Christ is denying God as he is God the Son, being one with God the Father and the Holy Spirit. Only those who pray and believe in spirit and in truth will be able to understand this, as previously mentioned, not by human wisdom, as God is spirit. By the power of his words and many miracles he has done in his lifetime, and after, through the saints and those gifted by him through the Holy Spirit, no one, by far, has exceeded his greatness and power or even equaled his wisdom, even in the driving of demons and raising the dead to life, making the blind see, healed the lepers, the lame to walk, seeing him walk on water, amazingly feeding thousands who listened to his teaching out of a few pieces of bread and fish, for he is the true Messiah, the Redeemer of the World. It is just so sad that until now, many refuse to listen as they prefer to listen only to human intelligence and to their own minds and their hardened hearts, instead of opening up their spirit, and their hearts to the love of others which may make them happier and whole, as many who have done this have never been happier. Still, we hope and pray for your enlightenment, my dear brothers and sisters, as we express the love of Jesus in our hearts for you to heal in Jesus' light and his words of love, to pierce your heart that you may see God's wisdom in him, being the true Son of God, who is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. Just by looking around our world, may the Holy Spirit enlighten all non-believers to open their hearts and spirit, to bring peace and love into themselves as they may see the truth in the light of Christ. With his words of truth and love, humility, understanding, mercy and forgiveness, only those who follow him in these words, as you may have seen, have attained peace in one's life, while those who may have denied all these to rule their hearts, and have refused to die to their 'self,' do you seriously think they will have peace in their their lives? To those who may refuse to listen, do you not see what may be ruining their lives? Is it not denying the words of Christ Jesus? When Jesus was praying while being baptized by Saint John the Baptist, his divinity has again been made manifest, as in Luke 3:21-22, then “heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: ‘You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.’”
No one has ever been divinely blessed, except our dear Lord Jesus Christ.
“I and the father are one”. In John 14: 11-14 Jesus added, “Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me… I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.”
Yes, those damn backwoods coal country West Virginian Christians. Horribly closed minded and ignorant. But that Judge Judy... now there is wisdom right there.
-
Jubs Joobly is one of the worlds true authoritative figures.
Just ask her!You know Earnest, if you weren't married I'd make a play for you
You know Melissa that you wouldn't.
Thank you, and give my best to your husband. Very good answer.
I don't have to give your best to him-he lurks around here-and I indeed love him to distraction.I am aware of your love affair with your man Melissa, I read all the posts.
Loving someone to the point of distraction should be compulsory!
Yes, it sure is....Lets see, socializing with closed minded, pistol packing, Bible thumping hillbillies or watching Judge Judy on tv. Hmmm lets say I spent a whole lot of time sitting in front of my television set until I left that god forsaken place.
Wow, probably the reason that West Virginians seemed so close minded to you was because they picked up your "I'm better than you" attitude. That's a shame too, because as a whole, we are one of the most tolerant loving demographics that I've ever seen. I have never met one, not one, native West Virginian that wouldn't pull the shirt off of their own back to help someone in need. I'm sure they exist somewhere, but I've never seen one. I have seen people take entire families that they have never met into their own homes after a flood or a fire and I have seen people who live WELL below the poverty line raid their own pantries to give to others that are only marginally less well-off. I have also watched entire communities of those in "coal country" gather outside of a mine to comfort each other when there was a collapse.
I personally have heard old men in local diners have philosophical conversations that you could not begin to wrap your mind around. I know farmers that can tell you what the weather will be like the next day with 100 percent accuracy without ever looking at a television.
You want to know who you're looking down your nose at? They are the ones that risk their lives to provide power so you can watch your precious little Judge Judy. They are the ones that grow the food that you shovel into your unappreciative mouth.
And if you would have listened to anything those "bible thumpers" said, you would have realized that "God" means community in these here parts. Any other religious distinction is on you.
Now, if you want to lay your swinging cyber-ego on the table with the Hillbilly that is now addressing you, we can line up our I.Q. scores, our world knowledge, our formal education, and our open-mindedness. I'll take on the collective wisdom of Judge Judy any day. And I would certainly take on a closed-minded stereotyping wannabe quasi-intellectual.
I do believe in a "God" of some sort, but I just can't accept "Jesus as savior", or "God's only begotten Son". Jesus if he did actually exist it appears to me he was just one of many historical spiritualist of the world, but according to "Christian belief" I will be damned to hell just for that reason. It doesn't matter if I have lived a good honest life or not, but the man sitting on death row for murder all of a sudden accepts Jesus as his savior is welcomed with open arms into the pearly gates of Heaven when this so called loving all mighty God will throw us non believers into the fiery pits of hell. I feel very offended by that belief.
"To whom much is forgiven, much will be required".
Since you have a good honest life there will not be that much required of you by God, as you will not have so much work to do, but as to the fellow on deaths row, he will not have such an easy time of it, for the path too holiness will need much work.
Count your blessings.
What kind of a God would God be if forgiveness of ones errors were not available to all.
Do not worry about the 'hell' theory, it's incorrect. The only fiery hell is called the lake of fire and that is the 'second death'. God is not about eternal punishing. God gains nothing to have souls burning forever. I am sure the second death of the soul will be quick and complete.
"for God so loved the world he gave his son that those who believe on jesus would not perish <-- be put to an end, destroy fully, - but have eternal life".What exactly will I be forgiven for? My disbelief that Jesus Christ is Lord and savior of all mankind? Sorry, that just don't fly with me. I am not worried about burning in your lake of fire because it does not exist. What happens to me when I die is not a big concern for me. My focus is on living, and trying to be the best person I can be now in this life for no other reason but that is who I am, not because of this so called "heaven" that may or may not exist.
In this life Shelia, we have been given 'free will,' just as our fore parents, Adam and Eve. Nevertheless, God has given us two paths or two masters to choose from, as in Matthew 6:24 that we cannot serve two masters at the same time. We choose only one … either God or Mammon (money/lust/power/pride/material things). If we opt to be ruled by material things or by Mammon, which the evil one prefers and which may lead to darkness, can we ever attain satisfaction and peace in our life? But if we learn to live in truth and follow the powerful words of God in His Son, Jesus Christ, who surrender all our worries and burden to him as he carries our yoke in forgiveness of our sins, what would we have to worry about if we live with love for others in our hearts and spirit? Shelia, my dear sister, in Christ, I have learned to see heaven and hell just by living in this world, and as early, Christ has opened my eyes about the truth that living in him and with him, there is no substitute to being one with God and have felt an unparalleled joy doing this. I have learned to lift up my worldly wants and desires to him for I know, that all these things in life are as temporary as what have all come to pass in my lifetime. And for me, eternal happiness is a gift and a reward for those who have faith and follow Christ Jesus. That even in this life time, one may already experience a glimpse of this joy just by living in his words.
Or not.
1. God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6
2. God dwells in chosen temples
2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples
Acts 7:48
3. God dwells in light
Tim 6:16
God dwells in darkness
1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2
4. God is seen and heard
Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard
John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
5. God is tired and rests
Ex 31:17
God is never tired and never rests
Is 40:28
6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
things
Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8
7. God knows the hearts of men
Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
God tries men to find out what is in their heart
Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
8. God is all powerful
Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful
Judg 1:19
No contradictions here, nothing to see. move along.
It doesn't matter whether or not you are offended....statement not intended to offend.
Jesus saves all who believe in HIm and accept Him as their Saviour. If you are all about love and walking as Jesus walked it doesn't matter when the life is saved just that it is saved. It's like pulling drowning people out of the water you dont stop to ask how many sins they committed you just pull them out.
Don't concentrate on what others are given. Concentrate on what is freely given to you. Grace is free and lavished on us all who will accept it.
Hi Slarty, for one who believes in Christ and have seen the light of Christ, I am happy to share with you my views and beliefs as I continue to seek Christ's guidance through the Holy Spirit, I have never seen as much as before, as I see now the truth in the words of Christ in this life. Twice I had a near death experience and each time, he has revealed in me the power of trusting in him and abiding by his words. I have learned that no human wisdom and intelligence can ever fathom God's wisdom as he made us all and nobody is greater than Him. We can either choose to follow God through Christ Jesus by thanking and glorifying him in all circumstances that happen in our life as we abide by his words of truth and by his commands, or choose to be enslaved by the material things in life which may add no meaning to our life when we are humbled as we die. Do you believe that through God's power, man has been given great talents and gifts which are supposed to be used for the love of others? If one becomes happy out of God's goodness in men, do we not thank God for this goodness and blessing into our life? Man has become an instrument of God's love and as long as we acknowledge this truth, then we remain in his love. But if we fail by becoming selfish in this goodness, failing to love others in return for his goodness, and failing to share his light and his truth with others, then he will repay us in his anger as in Hosea 13:11 and in Romans 12:14-21. And in Matthew 6:24 that we cannot serve two masters at the same time. We choose only one … either God or Mammon (excessive materialism, sins of lust, pride, selfishness). We may find happiness doing what we want to do for own satisfaction but for how long? Later, we may see us back to being unhappy as we fail in our love for others and allow malice to corrupt our minds. If science is use to veer us away from the truth in God and the love of others, then we see the evil in science, as we may see this too in technology and in everything that man has made. While we have freedom to decide what we need to do in this life, God always reminds how we may be fooled by all these things that we experience and see around us, that we forget about our concern and love for others, which is the very reason for our existence, that having been made in his image and likeness, we should enjoy the gift of life and its blessings with others because this life is but temporary, as we are being tested by God how much we love, worship and adore him by showing our love and respect on others. It is only when we open our eyes to this reality that we may learn the purpose of our existence. All happiness in this life is but temporary, except the inexplicable joy and happiness that one experiences when one is with Christ and in Christ. What is the use of being happy for a time but suffer for a longer time? Remember my dear Slarty, life is short, while eternity is endless. Don't be fooled by the evil one. Here in this life we can already feel true joy and happiness sharing the love of God in Christ with others. Life is what we make it. If we surrender everything, all our hurts, our wants, our defeats, our failures, and all our sins to Christ, and let Jesus carry all this load for us as we learn to trust him, and learn to love others more in this life, in all humility and obedience to the Lord, Slarty, I assure you, you will be happier than before, as you make others happy in this life. And you will see tears of joy that will flow from your eyes as you feel the truth in the love of Christ. It is not material that makes one truly happy, it is believing and living in the words of Christ, or Lord and Savior, and our true healer. Jesus in me loves you Slarty. Take care, keep healthy in Christ and Godspeed.
Your god does not show it's face, probably because it does not exist. But you tell me it is all love and light but if I don't believe it exists I will suffer for r\eternity.
If a god existed why couldn't it wait till I am dead? Then I will see it and believe it exists and glory be. But no. Like all good con men I have to jump on the deal now when it is hot and before it is too late.
Forgive me for not falling for that old con which is older than the god myth itself.
You god in everything because you have confirmation bias. Someone preys and their wish comes true and god dun it. But what about the thousand times people pray and nothing happens?
You see what you want to see. You ignore the evidence that your god is a myth. You ignore the history of your own church. You focus on making real your fantasy.
I can see you are a good person with good intent and a good heart. But you are not being logical about this at all. And I know, christianity is not about logic. More is the pity. Perhaps if it were you or some one would be able to answer my question. Why would a god need to order a murder in order to forgive us?
To me that's a deal breaker, or at least one of them. It was fine for barbarians and primitives to believe such nonsense but come on now, how can you believe it? How can you not see through it ?
The only thing we need to be saved from is this god myth of yours. That you can not be happy without it is a real shame. I feel sorry for people who need to believe there is a god above that will save them from death.
I have made peace with death. I will accept it as we all must in the end. No one gets out of here alive. I have never been so happy as when I threw off the yoke of your myth. You think it frees you but it makes you a willing slave to the whims of a fantasy god.
I am at peace and could never be more so by believing fantasy. Please do not assume to think I am suffering because I don't accept your word or the word of a 2000 to 3000 year old fiction novel.
The not Jesus in me loves you too. I don't need a ghost in me to know we are all connected through our nature. I think all life is special because there is no after life. It is a one shot deal. Life has meaning because it is not eternal. Eternal life has no meaning. Having a mythical god in your life adds no meaning. How could a god add meaning to your life? It's nonsense.
If life was eternal it would be cheap. Who cares if you murder me? I will just rise again. Whoopy s**t.. Who cares.
But because it is only a one shot deal your life and all life is precious. Why waste it believing nonsense?
Gosh! I just love having this phrase shoved in my face everyday.
Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves!
Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves!
Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves!
Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves!
Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves!
Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves! Jesus Saves!
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paradigmsearch: It's ok to disagree, but if you don't have anything nice to say, please don't say anything at all.
What he said was true. We hear that nonsense too often. Christians act as if we are not sick to death of hearing it. The good news isn't news anymore people, it's damn near 2000 years old and it was never good or new to begin with. Give it a break.
But really, typing the words in protest ten thousand times is annoying too. lol...
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