It's hard to put a face on something that doesn't exist.
Well, just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it does not exist. But you can believe what ever you want to believe. Afterall, your belief is your reality. So all is fair.. but you keep asking how and why people believe in something you don't.. both parties will just get blue in the face trying to explain each other's point of view.
According to your interpretation of what can be seen, or what exists.
Sorry. It is not my job to seek for you. I can show you all that I believe in. But if you do not have the faith or desire to really know, you would not see it. Many religions think that they can "save" souls by convincing people that there is a God. But for you my friend, it is like asking me to show you who you should love. Only you can make that choice, only you can feel that in your heart.
You can search and ask deep within.. The answer is right here in front of you. When you ASK, it is GIVEN.
One reason would be if He wanted to give us the chance to believe in him... after all, it's pretty difficult not to believe in something you can see.
Obviously, if God created us on this planet, He did so for a reason. I think it was so we can each have a chance to develop ourselves in the face of adversity.
That would explain a lot that happens,so the fortunate are the ones who face a great deal of adversity as they have a greater chance to develop.
Why do you have to believe in him? Why could you not go through adversity if you knew for sure a god exists?
Sorry. Doesn't make sense.
I don't pretend to know every reason, but there are some I can think of.
1 - Think of faith as a muscle. It needs to be developed. You could say God has perfect faith, and wants us to learn it too. It would be impossible for us to develop faith if we knew of him.
2 - Temporal problems wouldn't be as serious to us if we had a perfect picture of the afterlife. If an adverse condition isn't as serious, you will never appreciate the opposite of that condition as much.
1 no faith would be needed if we knew he exists. The only reason for faith is that you really don't know that he actually exists. So that's rather a nonsensical reason.
2 Temporal problems are not serious for me now. I expect to die and that's the end of it. I'm at peace with that idea. I don't need an after life.
But you want one which is the only reason you have faith.
As for not appreciating opposites if one of them was absent, so what? I do not appreciate good more because there is evil. I hate evil because i know there is good. I can do very well without evil. The idea is to get rid of it, isn't it? Not keep it around to learn from. My goodness. What kind of logic are they teaching these days?
To you it may be nonsensical, but that doesn't make it nonsensical.
To me, faith is important.
Really, it goes no deeper than that. There is no way for one person to prove to another the importance, or lack of importance, of faith.
It's all about deciding for yourself what's important.
If temporal problems aren't serious for you, you're stronger than a lot of us. Having been through an extremely long, difficult financial period, I can say that temporal problems are very important to me. No matter my beliefs, I don't want to see my children hungry.
Sorry Slarty, but you have no idea why I have faith, so don't presume to know.
Have you ever been really sick, and after, you thought to yourself 'man, this is so much better than being sick!'. Have you ever been really thirsty, and had a glass of water that tasted like bliss from the clouds?
It's really your choice how much you appreciate something. For me, I definitely appreciate the good things more after facing the bad things. I appreciate what it means to have food much more than some people do, due to the experiences I have had.
I agree that you do appreciate the finer things if you have suffered. I'm going through a really rough financial period myself. Would have lost my house but let my daughter take over the mortgage. Now I can still live here in the basement at a reduced rent and my daughter and my grandkids kids get this home without having to go out and get a loan.
When the world hands you lemons you make lemonade.
I am not interested in material things. I go with the flow. If I have plenty then that's great. If not, oh well. I am at peace with myself and try to be no matter what.
As the Dali Lama said when he was asked if he worried about China taking over Tibet: What is the use in worry? You can do something about a problem or you can not. Worry affects neither reality.
I'm an atheist but I appreciate rational thinking,
Faith is important to you and so you should keep it. It is not important to me so I lack it.
We learn to appreciate opposites because the world is a hash place at times. But what would be wrong with it not being a harsh place? The only reason we have to learn those things is because we face them. Heaven won't have them so what was the point?
The only reason you have faith in a god is because you think it will give you and yours ever lasting life and a world with no pain and suffering. You may not want to admit it but it is the only rational reason there is for having faith in a god you can't know exists with any certainty. Faith takes the place of certainty. It is a kind of certainty. Why care if it did nothing for you? Your whole religion is based on it doing something for you..
But unfortunately your certainty does not make it a fact.
I deal in facts. I don't have to believe them because they are facts. The rest is speculation. Obviously there is no reason for me to believe something speculative.
Obviously there are very few facts compared to speculative ideas. For those I am content to wait and see. So I have no reason to have faith in anything. I have no reason to even believe anything.
So we come from entirely different perspectives. But life is the same for both of us. You cope with god, I cope as well or better without. You expect a reward for right thinking and I expect nothing and am happy with what ever I get.
At least we agree with all that. I'm sorry to hear about your hard times, but glad you have things still working out.
I'll tell you my reason. If I'm going to live forever some day in Heaven, I want to be able to appreciate each second of it as much as possible. The more I learn to appreciate good things, the more wonderful heaven will be.
Again, you don't know why I have faith in God. You can make assumptions, but since you haven't experienced what I have experienced, you don't know why I believe in what I believe.
Nor do you know what my religion is, what my beliefs are, or how they affect my life... it's a lot of assuming to go through to try and make your point.
Neither does your certainty that it doesn't exist make it a fact.
Sorry, again you make assumptions about me. You think I expect a reward, and you think you do better without God than I do with God...
If you only deal with facts, what facts do you have to make such claims?
I have no certainty that your god does not exist any more than you have certainty that it does. Don't get me wrong. I just lack the belief that you have. I lack belief that your god exists. If it showed itself to me I would have no choice but to accept that I am wrong.
The best definition of an atheist is one who lacks belief, Not one who believes there is no god. I do not have a belief that no god exists, I lack belief that it does. I;m sure you understand the difference.
You think I am assuming something about you. I am not. If you believe in the Christian god you have told me all about your beliefs and why you have them.
Tell me honestly. Would you worship and love god and have faith in him if he was there but did nothing for you? Promised nothing? Be honest now. Be honest with both yourself and god.
'the Christian god'? There is no single definition for 'the Christian god'. You don't know what I believe in or why, but you assume you do know why.
Example:"The only reason you have faith in a god is because you think it will give you and yours ever lasting life and a world with no pain and suffering."
That is simply not the only reason I have faith in a god. Like I've said, you have no idea what I've been through. For all you know, I've seen Him. You have no way to know either way. Thinking you do know, is called assuming.
I'm fairly certain you wouldn't be able to define what 'my God' is. What are His characteristics. Who am I in relation to him? Who is Jesus in relation to both of us? Who is Mohammed in relation to all of us?
You can try, but I'm fairly certain you won't get it right.
He wouldn't be the same God if he didn't love me. God is love, if He didn't love me He wouldn't be God.
So no, if He didn't love me, I wouldn't worship Him, but He wouldn't be Him either.
So he is only god if he loves you? I think you proved my point.
How does that prove your point?
He's not only God if He loves me. He is only God if He is love. Literally, if He stopped being love, He would stop being God.
As I've said before, you assume much about my beliefs, I've had these conversations so many times, and everyone assumes because I'm Christian(kind of) that I believe in a certain view of God.
Since you don't care to ask me what I believe, I'll tell you a little.
God is a perfected being. He has a body of flesh and bone(but more perfect than our flesh and bone), and a spiritual body, joined together as His soul. He has perfect characteristics of goodness: Love, Mercy, Compassion, Understanding, Faith, etc.... Those characteristics, coupled with, let's just call it the underlying light of the universe, make Him God. Because of those perfect characteristics, He is perfect. Because He is perfect, the elements obey Him.
Really, it's a slaughter job to try and explain it so quickly to someone who has so many assumptions but won't tell me what they are, but that's kind of the '60-second novel overview' for you.
So yes, according to my belief, if God stopped loving, He would literally no longer be God. He would be fallen, for lack of a better term.
Nonsense. There is no reason that the god that created heaven and earth and all things has to be love or even be benevolent. It loving you is not the criteria for a god. It is your criteria for wanting to worship it.
Your particular beliefs are irrelevant.
The idea of gods has been around a long time. Some belonged to pantheons and had nothing to do with us. But even in those pantheons there was one top god that started it all.
The basic criteria for god is that which created everything, not love. That's your cult's take on it all. Or perhaps just yours. The god of the bible is far from love..
But my point was that you all, meaning ll christian sects, want to be able to use their god for something. That is why you prey. And if you couldn't use it and get something from it you wouldn't give it the time of day. lol... That is how you proved my point.
If my beliefs are irrelevant, then what God are we talking about? Are you trying to show with logic why my God doesn't exist, or some other God?
You attempt to define my motivations, which you cannot do(you claim you deal only in fact, not speculation). God loving me is not my criteria for wanting to worship God. Maybe if you asked me why, I would discuss it with you, but you keep assuming.
Why do you keep trying to argue against the existence of my God with arguments targeted toward something I don't believe in?
Still you think you can disprove the existence of God by using a certain definition of God. You have stated the importance of logic. That is an ecological fallacy, deciding what I believe based off a larger group (Christianity, or even Theism).
Answer this question: Are you trying to disprove my God, or all Gods by using one definition?
See my point above. You lump me in with Christianity by default. Let me tell you this, I believe that Christianity, Judaism, Islam, are all truths. I also believe in the truth of more obscure religions, many tribal religions, many different groups. I don't know as much about some as others, but I believe there is truth to be found among all civilizations.
But, you have already defined me. You continue to try and prove to me, logically, that God doesn't exist by using a definition of him that I don't believe in.
You have no idea why I pray, nor what I get from it.
You have no idea why I strive for goodness.
Seriously, maybe if you ask, you'll learn something new.
Who says I am trying to disprove god?
I do not need to know your personal motivations to know why you pray or why you worship. It by definition has to do with you wanting something from the relationship you have with your god.
Give me an example of a motivation which does not? just one.
There is no such thing as a selfless act. If you like I can prove that for you. If interested you can read my hub by the same name.
It seems that way from your statements, such as:
" If there were a real god everyone would know it without a doubt.. The reason not everyone does is because such a god as yours does not exist."
You might not be trying to disprove God completely, but you are trying to show why certain versions of God don't exist, certainly.
You don't need to know my motivation to know why I pray? My motivation is the reason why I pray. That is the definition of motivation.
It's like me saying I don't need to know your motivation to know why you are posting here... it's a paradox to say you can know why someone does something without knowing why.
What defines the reason why I pray? Care to share?
Thank you for actually asking me about my motivation. I'll give you one example. I had an experience where I felt this force, for lack of a better term. This force wasn't something that actually came directly from God, it was more like he led me to it. Kind of like the difference between giving someone a glass of water and showing them where water is.
Anyway, this force, as best I can describe it, is light. Just as white light contains the colors of red, yellow, green, blue, etc... this light contained colors of happiness, peace, love, and things I can't even describe with words.
Another word I could use to describe it just as well as light is truth. I don't pray to God to get things from him. I pray to God to thank him for showing me this truth... in my understanding, this truth is a constant that always has and always will exist... it has many, many meanings that I can't go into easily in a forum like this.
So basically, I found this truth, or light, and it teaches me about myself... it gives me glimpses into things that are amazing. I worship God because I love him. I don't expect or ask for anything in return. And again, to clarify, I'm not saying this light comes from God, or that if I didn't pray to him I would lose all access or anything like that. I'm not looking for anything to come from my praying or worship.
Like I said, it's hard to describe without using other concepts that might be confusing or assumed in a different way than I believe them... Kind of like how advanced mathematics rely on the principles of simpler mathematics to be explained.
See. I told you your particular belief was irrelevant because I was making a universal point about all motivation.
I understand this force you speak of very well because I've experienced it as well through Zen meditation as well as shamanistic practices. I've been in states of absolute bliss filled with love and understanding.
I've had out of body experiences and reached a state I could only describe at the time as: coming home. After that the back of my head seemed to have a sun in it for months.
The mind is capable of the most amazing things and the most amazing feelings.
You say you are not looking for anything to come from your prayer or worship. But you say god along with the experiences you have teach you about yourself. That they do. That is what you want as well. Nothing wrong with that.
I do, however, think we can prove that specific versions of god are irrational. You yourself argue against omnipotence being god's ability to do anything, but rather it's ability to do anything possible. So you too argue against specific versions of god being possible or not.
We probably are not all that far apart on some of our ideas and we certainly may have had some similar experiences.
Where we differ most is that you believe in a separate conscious god, and I think what qualifies as god is the nature of existence. An unconscious process we are all part of.
Again I have no faith that it is true. It is my opinion based on my life experience and understanding of science.
You are trying to define my motivation. You simply can't do that. I told you why I pray, because I love God. Nothing more. You can say I'm wrong, but what you say doesn't define my motivation.(Imagine a world like that! You are going to give me all your money because you now feel the desire to do so... see? doesn't work).
Correct, but I think we can agree on many versions of God that don't exist. Between you and me, the only versions that are important are mine and yours.
I never claimed my God was the same as others', but I don't try to disprove your God by a definition you don't believe in... See the difference?
Notice how you didn't think that before you found out what I believed? That's why assumptions are bad.
That's perfectly fine. You can believe what you believe because of your experiences, and I believe in what I believe based off of my experiences.
Scientifically, I don't know of any evidence for or against.
You get nothing out of loving god? What a strange idea.
Of course your particular beliefs are important for discussing your version of god or disproving your version of god. But from the very beginning the only point I made was that your belief is based on what you get from your relationship with your god no matter what your belief is.
Science itself doesn't try to prove or disprove any god at all. But through the findings of science there is a lot of evidence to suggest that nature itself, the laws of nature, which is like saying the nature of nature really, is responsible for all of this without there being an outside force required.
But that's another long discussion.
First, I definitely agree about the laws of nature creating itself is a very lengthy discussion.
I still think it's unfair to say every belief is based off what you get in return... selflessness is a very important quality to me, and while I'm far from perfect, I strive to be.
I believe that God is synonymous with perfection... i.e. he is God because he is perfect. I also believe that perfection should be our goal. Take from that what you will, but I've discovered great truths(for myself) from those two concepts.
Well I wouldn't say self created. I'd say eternal.
There is no such thing as a selfless act, and while perfection is desirable and a laudable goal, it can not exist.
But never mind that. What is love to you?
Certainly, when Christ said 'be ye therefore perfect', he didn't mean we had to be perfect in this life. The root of the word Telios is tello, to set out for a distinct goal. I read what he said as 'set your goal for perfection, today'.
Love I think is hard to describe with words... you said you had experienced that force... it just seems 'right', coming home like you said.
In fact, I think love is the motivating factor for God creating us. He experiences these immense, perfect feelings, and desires to share them. I think he knows what it is like to live without them, appreciates them, and has made his goal of existence to create children and help them experience it as well.
Love seems hard to describe but it isn't. It is the act of/ or desire to make some thing or some one a literal part of self; or recognition that something or some one is part of you.
Again, I did a hub on this you might be interested in reading. But it ties in with what I was saying about selflessness and the feeling of coming home and the goal of perfecton
My problem with trying to describe love is that I feel that the English language is a weak language. I'm not saying Spanish or Portuguese or German or Japanese is better... but I feel the words are hollow and don't give respect to love.
From those experiences I've had, thinking back, nothing in this language will suffice to describe it for me. Light and truth and happiness and amazing and perfect seem like a copy of a polaroid of an object taken through thick dirty glass.
Maybe Aramaic or Hebrew will give me a better outlet when I learn them...
That is kinda like saying that cookies are good, only if you eat them.
If you do not eat one it does not taste good.
If I love a cookie, it loves me back!
If I don't love cookies they don't love me back..
That is way too simplistic , not really what I mean .. but you get the idea??
Kinda sort of?
You're assuming God has a human face and/or you're assuming God is humanlike in form.
Perhaps God more closely resembles the form 'wind' or 'light'...
Cool. I didn't mean literally show his face though I'm sure the Christian one should be able to make one up for us to see. I mean why doesn't he just make it plain to everyone he exists without question? Couldn't he do that?
An omnipotent god should be able to or he isn't omnipotent.
But are you saying god is nature? That would explain it. God is a process not a being. Is that what you mean?
According to the Christian Bible, we humans look just like him as we are told we are made in the image and likeness of god.
It does baffle the mind a bit as to why he narrow-mindedly led this planet to its current circumstance. I know the argument is we did it, satan did it. But really, if god started it, he did it.
Absolutely. They blame everyone but their god. And yet if a conscious god created a universe where everything must kill and eat to survive; and suffer disease, hunger and death. I can't see how we could forgive it for it's crimes against it's creation, let alone worship it.
Surely He can do everything:
[6:104] Eyes cannot reach Him but He reaches the eyes. And He is the Incomprehensible, the All-Aware.
[6:105] Proofs have indeed come to you from your Lord; so whoever sees, it is for his own good; and whoever becomes blind, it is to his own harm. And I am not a guardian over you.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … ;verse=103
OK..How do we know God Hasn't shown his face or has communicated with someone here on Earth. If someone came on this forum and said I saw God yesterday would you believe him or her?
Or if a neighbor or friend said i saw or talked to God would you believe it?
What has history told us about people that say they have communicated with God?
So I say...How do we know God hasn't and isn't communicating with people?
That is kinda what Jesus said when the Pharasees when they asked for a sighn?
I am paraphrasing here ,,,,
Jesus said, " H--l No! I won't do that in front of the cameras!
Or something like that?
Some people don't believe anything they haven't seen themselves.
Well, that's not strictly true. I would assume that most athiests believe in the atom...
No need to believe in atoms. There is plenty of evidence to support the idea that something is going on in the micro world. we know a lot about it. We have a model of what we call an atom and we learn about the model through experiment. Belief is irrelevant.
You do know that belief applies to more than religion, right? Either way, do you know about the evidence that supports the idea of dark matter?
Models are not supposed to be taken as fact. That is the one thing people do not seem to understand. A model is just that, something to work from.
The BB is not something to be believed in, it is something to be studied and a model to be examined. It may be the best model we have but it isn't the last word.
Yes I know belief does not just apply to religion. There is simply no need for belief at all. Something is a fact or it is speculation. Your belief about them is irrelevant. Something is true or it is not. Your belief one way or another doesn't alter the facts.
I advocate not believing anything. You can have opinions based on facts, but you do not have to invest faith in an opinion. If you do and you are wrong your world could crumble. People kill themselves all the time over belief proven false.
That's extreme but it happens. It happens in degrees. If you lack belief you just oh hell, I was wrong, and move on.
I live by probability, not belief.
Dark matter/energy? Sure I know the evidence for it. Do I think it is a fact? No. It's a model. Models contain facts but they may be completely wrong in the end as to what is built on those facts.
There are other models that explain the same thing. We will see which becomes the most likely as we go along.
In science, no one has the last word, only the latest.
I think maybe you should be more careful in your dismissal of things you don't believe in.
It's fine for you to dismiss dark matter, but you shouldn't do so to the point of telling other people they are wrong or belittling them.
The problem is, you go beyond fact. When there is no proof for something, you don't simply 'not believe' in it. You actively state that it doesn't exist. You state that people who do believe in it are wrong.
There is no reason for that kind of attitude.
Speculation is not dismissed unless it is stupid. Most of the time it is best to just wait and see.
Who did I belittle? Give an example.
I apologize, I mistook someone else's comments about dark matter for yours... I was having three conversations including dark matter with three different people. Forgive me.
More brilliantly 2k + years ago, yes. But has been showing his face from 'jump street'. People just prefer to look in a different direction, to keep themselves busy and justify their self imposed causality.
If it didn't exist, we wouldn't be talking about it so widely and for so long throughout the entire planet for all those years...
let's do a little math:
2100 years x 365 = 766,500 days @ an average of 1 billion pp daily = 766,500,000,000,000,000 (766.5 Quadrillion) mentions, about someone who did not exist?
I wonder how large a number if we start @ the beginning of either the Judaic or Islamic Calendars or those guys before then science calls Neanderthals some 250,000 years ago...
Come now B,
We agree on more than that.
I am convinced it is the 'approach & doctrine' we do not.
ps, there are 5 inches of snow out my window already, in October. This is now officially, Moscow on the Hudson.
I can agree. (Wait---I can partially agree. Doctrine does matter).
Indiana weather's kinda like that too. I expect snow any time!
But it'll probably be another month or more before we get ground cover. Have fun there! I envy you now. I'd like to be making a snowman or just watching it snow.
They all thought the world was flat too. They thought it talked about it. It must be true. lol.... Truth by consensus is a fallacy. Guess you haven't heard yet or not enough people have said it for it to be true, eh? lol....
Dumb argument number 3
Right. He can't get it together to actually convince the world who he is. I get it. Again you have a low opinion of your god and his powers. If there were a real god everyone would know it without a doubt.. The reason not everyone does is because such a god as yours does not exist. All the rest is your excuses for an absent god. it is really very funny.
Let me get this straight. If there were a real God, who had always existed, and had the power to create planets and life. If that God were real, you would know what He wanted? You would presume to know the mind of God?
That is very funny. You don't even know the mind of your fellow man, so how could you know the mind of God?
People talk about God and assume they are talking of the same one. However, there are literally thousands of them to choose from. So, wherever the one lives, whether inside or outside of the universe, do the others share the same accommodation, or do they not get on well enough for that?
God would tell me and everyone else. What is so funny about that?
You said this earlier:
You say ahorseback has no right to say what speak for God... what right do you have?
You say that He would tell you and everyone else... but what gives you the right to say that? Saying that means you would know His will if He did exist.
Right? I don't need a right. It''s just logical. You have a god that wants people to come to it because they want to. It is all powerful. And yet you think that anyone could look at god in what ever form and not feel that that was god in his gut? Just know?
Part of the religion has always been that we all know in our hearts that god exists. Trouble is not all of us do. Why not? I'd personally not mind a bit if I knew a real benevolent god exists.
Why did Moses know the burning bush was god? It could have been a devil. He just knew. right? Or did he hope for the best and go along?
There is no reason that if a god that powerful wanted you to know he exists that you wouldn't.
You say it's logical, because it makes sense to you. So then, it must be what God would do if He existed?
If you want to go into logic, fine. Let's go there.
"You have a god that wants people to come to it because they want to." - So, you say, if my God did exist, then He would make Himself known to everyone, even though He wants people to come to Him because they choose to. You can't have it both ways.
Firstly, that is a Straw Man fallacy: An argument based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. You haven't even asked about 'my God's characteristics, and argue about Him in a way which I don't claim.
Secondly, it's an Ecological fallacy: Inferences about the nature of specific individuals are based solely upon aggregate statistics collected for the group to which those individuals belong. You state what I believe in based on your understanding of general Christianity.
Thirdly, you use Mind-Projection fallacy: when one considers the way he sees the world as the way the world really is. Your idea of what God would or wouldn't do is expected to be the truth of what God would or wouldn't do.
"Part of the religion has always been that we all know in our hearts that god exists. Trouble is not all of us do."
Again, you are assuming what my religion is, yet you have no idea about what it teaches. Perhaps my religion teaches that there is a way for all of us to find God, but it's not necessarily apparent, and has to be sought for. Perhaps my religion teaches that there is no way to know in our hearts, we just have to believe anyway. You can't argue against my religion without knowing what it is.
So... logically, right? You can show that God would reveal himself with logic, and a little bit of logical fallacy thrown in the mix, just for flavor.
I don't know who you are, but I like the way you think.
"You have a god that wants people to come to it because they want to." - So, you say, if my God did exist, then He would make Himself known to everyone, even though He wants people to come to Him because they choose to. You can't have it both ways."
You are the one who wants it both ways. If I am going to go to god because I want to then I have to know for a fact it exists. There is no choice if I do not. What makes you think knowing god exists would make people unable to come to him by choice? It is the exact opposite.
You can't make that choice logically if you don't even know for sure it exists. If you do you can male an informed choice, Christian logic fails here every time it tries to say that if god were around for all to see that we wouldn't have a real choice. That is the only time we would have a real choice. Now we really don't. You are guessing.
It is irrelevant what your particular cult teaches. It is all variations on the same theme. I understand why you don't see that. you think your group is unique.
Sure some of you believe in hell some don't blah blah blah. You all have your own religion, ever individual one of you.
But there are basic tenet you all share. Like you said, if god didn't love you it wouldn't be god. If you don't get something out of it it wouldn't be worth believing in. You all use it, or at least you would like to.
You all make illogical excuses about why your god doesn't show up. But you claim it is all powerful. Yet it can not make me understand it exists? I have to take your word for it and have faith? Please!! lol...
What I am saying is that if an all powerful god existed that wanted us to know it exists then it would have no trouble letting us know it exists and we would all believe it exists, even us atheists. To think otherwise is either an excuse or it means your god is impotent. Take your pick.
My God does exist! Everyone is confused about everything going on, Because the right hand doesn't know what (or why) the left hand is doing what is is doing!
And that is just the way that is supposed to be or should I say; "The way it is"?
Slarty, I was only pointing out your logical fallacy in claiming that my God wants people to come to him but would make himself known to all. You say there is no choice if you do not know for a fact he exists, but the very fact that people go to Him even though they don't know he exists. I'll repeat that for you. You say there is no choice, but people choose to do so all the time. This is an example of projecting your world view as fact when it is not.
The fact is, you think my God wants people to come to him in faith, but that if He existed He would make himself known. If people knew, they couldn't come to him in faith.
You are apparently confusing what you think I believe with what I really believe. I don't believe God wants people just to come to him of their choice. I believe he wants people to come to him in faith. If everyone knew of him with certainty, they wouldn't be able to come in faith. So to say that he wants people to come to him in faith, but he would reveal himself, is a contradiction about the definition of God. If you want to argue against my God, you have to use my definition of God.
You also present logic as the only method to discern truth. Again, projecting the world as you see it as reality. Can you logically prove that there is no method of discerning truth other than logic?
I've shown exactly why it is relevent what my religion teaches. You can't argue that a God who wants his children to come to him in faith would reveal himself to them. If he did, there would be no chance for faith, so it would be against his definition.
It's easy for you to disprove a God I don't believe in
Do you think you can describe the basic tenets of my beliefs? I'll give you a hint, you've misrepresented one and stated one that is incorrect, out of two. You still assume you know my beliefs, but you don't. How can you argue against my beliefs when you don't even know what they are?
1 - You are using arguments about what other people do to define me. You care about logic so much, don't you realize that is a fallacy?
2 - I don't claim my God is all-powerful in the sense that He can do anything. I claim he is all-powerful in the sense that He can do anything that can be done. There is a difference, but you never bothered to find out what I believe, and you probably won't ask for clarification if that doesn't make sense to you.
For the third time. My God wants people to believe in him through faith. Faith in something that is not seen. Why would God show himself to people if he wants them to have faith? You are trying to disprove a God that I don't even believe in.
Ok, you quote my entire post and ask 'Why not?'. Why not what?
You attempt to present logical arguments against what I believe in, but in fact you present arguments against something I don't believe in. In other words, your arguments hold no water against my beliefs.
So why use them?
What is the point of coming to it on faith? Give me one logical reason for it.
The only reason I can see which seem obvious is that it is an excuse for an absent god, not a reason for it's absence.
But go ahead and explain it to me so I can make other sense of it..
Obviously there is no way to prove the existence of God, so the existence of God is just as uncertain as the non-existence of God. Logic doesn't provide a mechanism for this.
Really, the only things we have to go off of, in a personal, spiritual sense, is our experiences, and religious texts(if you believe in them).
I do believe in religious text. One of the characteristics of perfection is faith, and Christ is set forth as the example of faith. The absolute reason why I think faith is important is another one of those difficult to describe things, I'll just say faith is another of those forces that can be controlled by someone who is perfected.
Have you ever considered that if god were perfect you wouldn't exist because god would have no needs or desires and thereby no need r desire to create you?
On the contrary. Perfection doesn't exclude the ability to have desires. I believe God's desire is to create children and teach them to be perfect like he is... to be able to exist in harmony with those underlying forces...
It's actually one of the reasons that dark matter and dark energy make sense to me... I do believe in these energies that exist everywhere simultaneously... I also believe in spirit matter, basically that as we are born into physical bodies, we have a similar experience where we are first born into spirit bodies. The end goal, is to be 'born' into perfected bodies.
But, that all just depends on your definition of perfections
I just want to say, I'm our conversation has opened up more... I apologize for the times I am short... I am passionate about debate, more than I should be
To have desire can not be a state of perfection by most definitions. Needs and desires require fulfillment, hence there is some inner conflict before the desire is fulfilled. Inner conflict isn't part of any ultimate definition of perfection either..
Anything that has needs or desires is ruled by them.
Why would a god not create perfect beings to begin with? I don't see the point unless our creation is in aid of resolving gods own inner conflicts.
In some ways we can see nature as tending toward perfection through conflict resolution. In essence creating perfection rather being created by something perfect. Creating a god state so to speak.
Though it hasn't a hope of achieving that anytime soon if ever, nor does it rely on us humans though we are part of the process.
Yes. I'm enjoying this conversation too. Like your admirer said in other post, it is good to talk to a Christian who doesn't over react and who can be reasonable. lol...
I think it is because it just doesn't work that way. In the truest sense of the word, God didn't create us. He created our spirit bodies for us, but we existed before that. I don't think there are any shortcuts to achieving that state of perfection.
For an analogy, let's say the ultimate truth is represented by calculus. We have to go through other classes before we will be able to even learn about calculus, let alone understand it. I think life on earth is one of our lessons, so we can enjoy the bliss after.
I actually consider the desire to help others a key quality to perfection. You know this is all just my subjective belief and no kind of proof.
I actually gained a lot of what I consider to be true by reading some of the Apocrypha, Dead Sea Scrolls, LDS scripture, and the Quran, along with the writings and teachings of men who I consider to be inspired. I think truth is much more universal than some people seem to want it to be, but if God is our father, how could he pick and choose who he would teach truth to? As a father myself, it doesn't make any sense to me.
Would you have a mind of your own if God was a certainty?
God was supposed to have shown his back to Moses. It was believed that no man could look upon God and live. However, the fact that God has a back would suggest that he does have a physical body. Therefore he must exist in the physical universe, yet is the creator of the universe. So, I wonder where God lived, before the universe existed.
You know that, statistically, if a universe can be created out of nothing, then it is nearly impossible to even think that this is the only universe.
Our definition of universe is limited to what we can see. What's outside of our universe?
Well, cosmologists now believe that what we think of as the universe is one of a possibly infinite number of universes, all created by their own Big Bangs. These make up a multiverse. But then why stop there? A multiverse might be only one of an infinite number of multiverses. The only thing for certain is that we can never be certain about any of it.
Exactly. That's why the argument of 'Where is God', or 'Where was God before the Big Bang' doesn't really hold any water.
Our universe is expanding and cooling. Maybe there is a static universe where the Gods dwell... who knows? That's my favorite thing about faith. Because we can't prove it, there is no limit to how strong of faith you can develop.
"there is no limit to how strong of faith you can develop" That's my development path right now. Thanks for sharing your insights, emrldphx. I'm guessing that there's no such thing as a perfect faith because then, there would be nothing to look forward to in terms of making further progress. So, it's likely to be a lifelong activity developing faith.
To be blunt, you anti faith people wouldn't recognize God if he were to stand in front of you in an aura of light while bouncing Venus, earth and Mars in a juggling act!
wow! that just proves how little faith and how massive a doctrine you possess.
do the world a favor, show (or as the preachers say, shew) these "anti faith folk" what you mean by faith.
go on, I dare you.
think of me as Elijah, sitting on the mountain, seeing the messengers of light. staring at YOU yet another ba`al priest and asking if YOUR god is on the toilet...
That's another dumb knee jerk argument. You don't think much of your gods powers obviously. lol.. He can do anything.... but he can't get me to understand he exists. Wow....
God says He doesnt have to prove anything to the lowly humanity that exists in the schyco-babilish forum worlds .....but he did mention this "who in the hell do you think you are ".
I'm confused. God said that? Sounds kind of mean.
Question is, who is he really and who the hell do you think you are to speak for him? I'll take his word for it if he ever shows up, not yours
“It has been said that ‘ye are gods’” We are individuated parts of God made manifest. If we look within, we will find the answers we seek.
We somehow have a secret yearning for God to show It’s face to the world, so that we could quell all doubts including our own.
If we found some other ways of talking with God, then maybe we will stop wondering why He/She won’t show His/Her face to the world.
To see is to be blinded by colors, to hear is to be deafened by sounds. Precious things are distracting. If we see God’s face, it would probably be in a particular place or time. Then He/She would become a limited or finite entity whose company we cannot take everywhere we go.
As physically absent, He/She can be with us in Spirit no matter where we go, whatever we do, whatever time of day.
I believe that God is infinite but can manifest in the most mundane of finite creation: the grass, the tree, the flower, the stone. If we’re quiet enough, we can “see” God everywhere, including in the smiles of our loves ones.
Even if the human mind has found the answer to why God does not show His/Her face to the world, man would likely not believe.
"IF" there are 1000s of them ?
And "IF" we are evolutionists ?
Would it not stand to reason, that these 1000s evolved from ONE?
Nothing is impossible with God. The thing is, it does not make sense to show herself, and then what? It does not guarantee a belief in him.
However, we can see God is we want to. You will have to find your way of seeing her. Some see him in the meadows, the birds that fly, the children;s laughter, etc..
We are Gods ourselves, the physical extension of Him.. and she is indeed everywhere..
What I dont understsnd is why is God considered as somewhat of an object used only for the purpose of feeling and self awareness. If you belive that there truly is a God ( i do) then you must understand that he is not the only thing that controls the outcome of our lives, he enhances the good and is a forgiver of the bad. But we were not designed to be perfect. We were designed to aspire to be the best we possibly can. Whether or not we do so is our choosing. And in a way i think that that is what makes us perfect, we are able to choose or construct or lives and become the people we want to become.
My God does exist! Everyone is confused about everything going on, Because the right hand doesn't know what (or why) the left hand is doing what is is doing!
And that is just the way that is supposed to be or should I say; "The way it is"?
Slarty O'Brian wrote ...
Not sure I follow you. lol...
= - = -
The left hand will never know what the right hand is doing.
If we understood ALL of the facets of our reality ... It would drastically change the purpose of our lives.
If the deer knew what the hunter was doing, the fish knew what the fisherman was doing; etc. etc.
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