Why Jews don't believe in Jesus

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Truly Differentposted 12 years ago
"Why don't Jews believe in Jesus?"

Every time I come from Israel to visit my friend here in USA, I am asked this question by certain people. I always answer that Jews do not deny existence of Jesus, they just don't give him an honor of being a Messiah. I explain WHY. Nevertheless, these people try to prove me wrong. As a matter of fact, subconsciously they try to convert me. They give me tons of "proves" from the Bible.
I am a native Hebrew speaker. I know Hebrew. I even have a degree in Hebrew. I read TANACH (what you call Old Testament) in Hebrew, not in translation. Still, these people try to prove that I do not understand the writings.
I point to them all the mistranslations and misinterpretations of TANACH.
But it's a no-win situation.
Anyway, I don't try to prove you anything. So, please, don't try to prove anything to me. When we die, we will know.
However, for now, while we are alive, please, read this article that explains very intelligibly Why Jews don't believe in Jesus. I repeat again- Why Jews don't believe in Jesus. It's your right to believe or not to believe in something. Your faith may be based on your birth-origin, or on the way you've been raised, or on your own conclusions after years of searching. The choice is all yours and it is your right.
I post the link not for a discussion, but for an information, though questions are welcome. If any, I'll try to answer to the best of my knowledge, even if not immediately.
I am very busy, but I'll try to check in here.
Otherwise, everything is answered by Rabbi Shraga Simmons. Please, read every word of it. Thank you. Sonya.

<snipped link>
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "When we die, we will know." I wasn't going to say anything, as I already have moderate familiarity with this debate, but that statement caught me.
  When we die, it will be too late. Jesus claimed to be the only way to the Father. So you'd better be sure here, because after the Resurrection, we'll all be questioned.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's called playing Pascal's Wager. Not all of us are interested.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, not everyone is interested.
  
  But we all should be.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Pascal's Wager might not work the way you think it does. There's an assumption that if there is a G-d, that he'll reward unquestioning fealty. Is that a safe assumption to make?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  YES!
  
  I state that unequivocally because I've heard Him.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Chris, you vocalized what I wanted to say.
  Indeed. This is serious business, the subject of the Messiah.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ____________
  Yahshua (Jesus) never spoke of himself. He said if he did it would make the witness untrue.
  
  According to the new testament, Yahshua taught the way to God as God spoke to him.
  The only way to God, is God and living the life God taught
  
  John 12:49
  For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
  
  John 5:31
  If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  John 8: 14:
  
  "Jesus answered and said unto them, 'Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whether I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go."
  
  8: 18:
  
  "I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me."
  
  John 8: 58:
  
  "Jesus said unto them, 'Verily, verily, I say unto you, 'Before Abraham was, I am.'"
  
  And as Chris reminded us,
  
  John 14: 6, 7:
  
  "Jesus saith unto him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
  If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also; and form henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.'"
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ___________
  
  You still don't understand. The blind leads the blind.
  
  In the prophets the messiah is said to be an ordinary man who causes all the Jews to return together and then he will bring them perfect peace.
  
  Yet you say Jesus is God.
  
  So where is the peace?
  
  It speaks of one coming not 2
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The Jewish understanding of Messiah is one thing. To selectively pick quotes from the Bible is another.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  _______
  
  True, that's why I stick to the Jewish Scripture
  and stay away from the altered English Bible
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But you didn't. If you want to argue the Jewish understanding of Messiah v. the Christian one, I can respect that. I have some (very little) familiarity with it, and I am always willing to learn.
  
  But don't take Christian Scripture, cherry-pick a few verses that seem to support your argument, and present them. That's dishonest, or at least disingenuous.
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you so much Truly aka Sonya, Deborah, and all of you other Jews commenting on here!
  
  I learned a lot from this topic. I like Judaism. It's completely different from what I was taught it was when I was still a Christian. I mean I liked the Jews, don't get me wrong, but I listened to Christians ignorant of true Judaism teach me something about them, LoL. Many of your views that I dislike in Christianity apparently come from misinterpreted Hebrew scriptures.
  
  i have a question, though. How tight do you hold on to the story of Creation in Genesis, and is it important to you that all Jews believe it 100%? Really just curious of your answer, no ulterior motives.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with you. I was Christian in my childhood, and resent the ignorance the religion perpetuates about Jews, ignorance that has been used for almost 2000 years to underwrite unidirectional violence against Jews by Christians. I was also stunned to read very different conclusions about "OT" events; needless to say, as a convert to Judaism now, I understand and agree with the Jewish viewpoint.
  There is no dogma in Judaism (required beliefs), unlike in Christianity. You're supposed to struggle to find meaning in scripture, and different people can draw different conclusions from it. I read the creation stories in Genesis as being purely metaphorical. In general, though, most Jewish exegesis doesn't spend much energy trying to verify whether Biblical stories are fact, but rather what they could possibly teach us.
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  wavegirl22posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  +1
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  A Thousand Wordsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting. Thank you! If I were to go down a path like this again, I would seriously consider Judaism.
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  terced ojosposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jewish culture is full of bigots. The religion is elitist and evil. They would refer to you as a Shiksa or a man as a Shkutz. These terms are deragatory and the context ranges for women from "gentile woman" to "abomination" and "whore." To Jews all non-Jews are "goyim." They are woefully opposed to intermarriage. What is most disturbing to me about Jews is when you bring these things up you are immediately called an anti-semite. Jews never deal with the biggotry and racism within their own ranks. Their answer is to call you a racist and not deal with the glaring and racists evil within their own culture. Why do Jews deflect the racism within their culture by calling the people who point it out "anti-semitic." I don't want to kill people because of their race; I don't believe any race should be targeted for extermination I do however think Jews should be held accountable for the racists practices of their culture as all people should be held accountable.
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  Moon Daisyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Once again, you are generalising. Not all Jews are like this, they don't all hold these horrible views! And they are not all opposed to inter-marriage! Jewish people are not one homogeneous group. Just because you may have met some people who use these ugly terms or behave in this way, please do not tar all Jewish people with the same brush!! (Just as I wouldn't dare to do this to yours, or any other culture). There are unkind, racist, ignorant people in every cultural group, and sadly there always will be. But we shouldn't judge the whole by the few.
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  terced ojosposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Generalising, smeneralising. I've heard Jews refer to all non-Jews as sub-human. These people actually believe that all non-Jewish peoples were put here to serve them. They believe that it is their Gods will.
  
  Are Arabs semites? Why would you call an Arab anti-semitic if they are a semitic people? The irony of the truth is that Jews do not consider Arabs semites and this is yet another layer of biggotry that Jews engage in when they play the anti-semitic card. What they are actually saying is that Arabs are sub-human and "goyim" as they like to refer to all non-jews. It's moronic to begin to say that Arabs are anti-semitic when they are semites; unless of course you regard them as sub-human.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Plenty of non-believers have been called much worse by believers of your religion.
  
  It is pot calling the kettle black.
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  Moon Daisyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, and I have heard Christians refer to everyone else as inferior, Arabs refer to non-Arabs as infidels, and many other groups do the same thing. Like I say, you will find racists in all cultures and groups.
  
  And as for your second paragraph, I didn't accuse you of being an anti-Semite. I would never use this word, and most other Jews I know wouldn't either. It is a mis-used word, and kind of a nasty one.
  
  I certainly do not regard Arabs as being sub-human. Why should I? I have good friends who are Arabs. And most people I know are aware that Jews and Muslims are both Semitic peoples. (It is wrong to say that "Arabs" are necessarily Semites, as the term "Arab" simply means someone who is living in the Arab world. And they can be of any religion. I think you mean "Muslim" rather than Arab).
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The language you use here is far, far too generous considering the garbage he's written. "Not all Jews" is more like "virtually none." When you have a bigoted axe to grind against a group of people, just one example is all you need in order to cast a blanket condemnation.
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  Moon Daisyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, you are right. He has met one person (maybe a few), who act as he says, and is judging the rest by these same standards. An intelligent person who is against bigotry should know better than to do this.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  He hasn't met any. Again, you're giving him way too much credit.
  
  In the lone factual statement he made, he was referring to that Haredi nut, Ovadia Yosef, who said that Gentiles are meant to serve Jews. Of course, TO left out the part about just about every other Jew who heard about this roundly condemning him for saying something like that.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Said the pot to the kettle.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Racism and bigotry are plentiful in many cultures.
  
  You're too quick to judge.
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  Edwinoel Tanglaoposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Amen, Brenda. Tc and Godspeed.
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  Edwinoel Tanglaoposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree 100% Chris, As in Romans 14:23, he who doubts is damned if he eats, because he eats not out of faith, and whatever is not of faith is sin, http://bible.cc/romans/14-23.htm, This is not to condemn but to guide, because our God in Jesus is a God of love and forgiveness, that all may follow and believe in accordance to his words. and in Matthew 6:33, seeking first God's kingdom and his righteousness brings out more blessings (spiritual), peace and true happiness that money could not buy.
  
  In Ezekiel 18:30-32 http://www.biblestudytools.com/ezekiel/ … +18:30-32, God tells Israel to repent and rid itself of all offenses and renew its heart and spirit.
  
  If Israel and others have seen happy times, ponder and reflect for a moment as we get enlightened in this url on Generational Curses and sins, http://www.sw-mins.org/gen_curses.html. If we do love our family and others, and of course, ourselves, we may as well listen in this truth, and release all our pretenses in our ego and pride, from the bondage of thinking that man's intelligence is better than God's wisdom, and turn to the light of Christ who is in all of mankind, waiting to be revealed to destroy all all evil in us and in this life.
  
  May Israel renew itself, as we all pray for renewal in the light of Christ, and be more powerful against deception, falsehood and deceit from the evil one. Tc and Godspeed.
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  Quirinusposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks, Brenda! Love those beautiful verses from John. Something subtle but profound speaks to the senses through John.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, and there will be a long line of gods awaiting your answers.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, there will be along line of men receiving it.
  
  Nice try, though.
  
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  pylos26posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No...I don't think so...cus i don't tolerate questioning.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I disagree with your view of the Messiah of course, but I'm very interested in Israel and Judaism. Maybe I'll have some questions later.
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  dadibobsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Do you mean you dont believe in Jesus, as in you don't believe he existed? or he did exist but you don't believe he was the son of god?
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  Truly Differentposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I though I made it clear. Jesus (a Jew whose name was Yehoshua- btw, this name is still pretty common in Israel) most likely did exist and Jews do not deny this. However, he was a son of God no more that you and me. God created humans and in this concept we all are God's children. The article explains why Yehoshua do not qualify to be The Messiah. It's up to you what point of view to accept.
  
  My purpose was to try to show to Christians that we, Jews do not need theirs, Christians' point of view. We have our own and I showed it.
  
  Besides, the concept of gods impregnating earthy women belongs to Hellenistic culture. They had lots of gods, they could afford it.
  
  But The God The Creator is The One and it is something different.
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  paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jews refuse to believe that Jesus was a god or son of god.
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  wavegirl22posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That statement in and of itself is moot.
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  paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How? Please elaborate.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The whole "refuse to believe" statement suggests Jews have been presented with overwhelming evidence of Jesus's claim to be a prophet/messiah/son of G-d and are just being obstinate. That evidence is a book written by Christians that, in parts, claims to override the Jewish Bible.
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  paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Many humble Jews accepted truthful Jesus as Messiah; the arrogant ones from the Jews did not accept him and persectued Jesus and his followers to prove that he was a false messenger prophet of the Creator God; they conspired to put him on the Cross with the intention of killing him; but they did not succeed in killing him .
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Zzzzzzzzzzzz........
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  Debby Bruckposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I believe only G-d may judge another human being.
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  rbe0posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Who is G.D.? Is this your sockpuppet? My favorite sockpuppet is dead. His initials were T.P. he died and I wrote a hub about him.
  
  Maybe G.D. can be my new favorite sockpuppet?
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  wavegirl22posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Spot on - - I could not have said it better!
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  Moon Daisyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Truly Different, thank you for this very interesting discussion. I have also had people ask me the question about why Jews don't believe in Jesus. And like you, I explain that it's not a case of 'not believing' in him, it's just that we don't believe that he was a Messiah, and he's not an important or relevant character in our religion. Different religions have different histories and people of importance.
  
  To me, that's quite easy to understand.
  
  I find that when people tell me that my religion is "wrong", and put pressure on me to convert to their religion, as well as thinking how rude and conceited this is, it gives me a rather negative view of their religion. And that is surely counter-intuitive.
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  Truly Differentposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hello, Moon Daisy, nice to meet you. Thank you for your posting. As you see, even after thorough explanation of all the reasons why Jesus is no authority for Jews, still we have individuals here who try to prove you wrong.
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  Don Wposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jews did believe Jesus was the son of God, just not all of them. These 'Christians' were Jews who believed Jesus to be the Christ. For a while Christianity was one of the many different Jewish sects that existed at the time. It was only later that the distinction between Jews and Christians was made due to the conversion of gentiles and the departure from mosaic law.
  
  Within the early church non-Jews were referred to as gentiles, suggesting that early Jewish Christians still identified themselves as Jews. An early split in the church was because some Jews wanted to continue to observe Jewish law. The council of Jerusalem addressed these issues, for example decreeing that gentiles need not be circumcised. This was part of the the early evolution from a Jewish sect into what we now identify as Christianity today.
  
  The belief Jesus was the Messiah, as professed by Jews of the time, is the reason Christianity exists.
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  Sophia Angeliqueposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you, Truly Different. Absolutely. I was born to secular parents, one of whom was Christian and the other Jewish. I attended both Jewish and Christian events. I also read the Tanach in Hebrew, and it absolutely and utterly does not say what Christians say it says. I've also tried to explain this a million times. To no avail. They keep coming back with you didn't interpret it correctly. However there isn't a chance that the interpretation is incorrect. In order to fit in with the Christian bible, it actually had to be changed. Even the new testament bible has been changed. The only one that is fairly close to the original is the Greek Orthodox. Of course, that would really put a fly in the ointment!
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Cassie Smithposted 12 years ago
That was interesting. Thanks for the link. It certainly clarifies the jewish position.
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Captain Redbeardposted 12 years ago
The post says link removed

Anyway, on the subject of Jewish faith, why don't you do animal sacrifices anylonger? What's the deal there? Every Jew that I have met seems to only follow certain laws these days. What happened? It seems that the Jewish people adapted to the cultures around them and that was a serious no no if I have read the old testament correctly. It was the whole reason for the law yes? To keep God's people, God's people?
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  First, it's not called the Old Testament. It's the Jewish Bible, the Tanakh. Also, Judaism isn't so much a "faith" since it doesn't really involve belief.
  
  We don't perform sacrifices because there is no place to perform them: they must be done in the Temple in Jerusalem. Since that was destroyed by the Romans almost 2,000 years ago, Jews don't sacrifice animals. According to the prophets' messages, the rabbis replaced cult sacrifice with prayer.
  
  There are technically 613 commandments, but about half of them are impossible to perform today because the necessary conditions aren't there.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Good thing jesus came with Gods ordained change of dispensation.
  Perfect timing as usual
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, convenient for the Christians, too. All sorts of bad behavior are tolerated, as long as you worship the right guy.
  
  Things aren't nearly as easy as that for Jews...which helps explain some things.
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So then how can you e living justly by God if you arn't able to follow the letter of the law? I am not trying to be confrintational, just trying to understand.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Every mitzvah (commandment) performed brings us closer. There are hundreds of options still available. Absolute adherence to all at all times is not expected nor required.
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Really? So from what I understand by that statement is that the law isn't actually law, it's more of a kind of guidelines?
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, the law is the law. The law (halakha in Hebrew) can change collectively, but it's still the law. For instance, Jews haven't practiced the death penalty in almost 2,000 years, because a requirement was made that only the Sanhedrin could mete out the death penalty, and that was disbanded.
  
  Some of the mitzvot are explicit, some are vaguely enough worded that they give you some latitude.
  
  When you don't perform a mitzvah, it's a "miss" (het in Hebrew), which has been translated as "sin" in English...you know, the thing televangelists get all weepy-eyed about on TV.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ************************
  
  Covenant in Hebrew is Beriyt and means an agreement that both sides are to keep or NONE have to.
  
  Law in Hebrew is Torah and means the teachings of God given to his people in love to encourage them and make them strong
  
  Commandment in Hebrew is Mitsvah and means direction and landmark so we can look to them as a guide.
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  Truly Differentposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  haha, as for animal sacrifices- there is a rudiment of this long lost unneeded tradition- a so called "kappara"- this chicken thing on Yom Kippur. A person takes a live chicken, swings the poor thing three times above his head and says, "This is my substitute, my vicarious offering, my atonement. This chicken shall meet its death, but I shall find a long and pleasant life of peace." Then a poor innocent bird is killed and given to the poor. It may be substituted by doing the same with money (and then giving them to donation).
  I think this is the only case of "animal scarifying" I can think of right now.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, I forgot about that. It's a practice that only the Haredi seem to engage in.
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So then you don't believe that God demanded these blood sacrifices? must admit I am at a lost for words here I'm not sure how to take any of this! Then again, me being a non jew would know nothing about jewish law or history.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No. According to scripture, G-d said when you make sacrifices, do it this and that way. Making sacrifices themselves is not a mitzvah. Some exegetical thinkers think that it was set up that way to pave a path to not perform sacrifices anymore.
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So when the Christians explain Christs coming as, "Man not being able to hold up the law, we are all flawed thus God sends Christ to take our rightful place in death so that we don't have to, fullfilling the law so that all man must to is except him as Messiah to find everlasting life." This is a problem since man is able to hold up to the law. Would I be understanding this correctly? Of course I am speaking in generalities here.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The Christian understanding of Jewish law is kind of stuck in time, about 2,000 years ago. At the time of Jesus, the only way for penance in Jewish society for sins against G-d was to bring sacrifices (animals, grain, etc) to the priests. That has changed substantially. (For sins against fellow man, you were required to "make things right" and that has not changed)
  
  The big drawback to Jesus's approach is that it set quite a bit of a lower standard in terms of actual conduct, so much so that fundamentalist Christians often act horribly but can still claim that they're acting just fine and that they're "saved."
  
  Salvation is a meaningless concept in Judaism, too, since there is no hell/eternal torment for anyone. You're supposed to perform the mitzvot because they're a sacred obligation and a gift.
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I've haven been trying to understand this concept for a while now, the Jews don't believe in a singular devil/satan either is that correct?
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "The satan" in Jewish scripture is an angel that points out Jews' faults to G-d. It is not G-d's adversary; he "works for G-d." To suggest that G-d has an equally powerful adversary is considered heretical among most Jews, because it smacks of polytheism.
  
  Keep in mind that these are not required beliefs; there are no required beliefs in Judaism (no dogma), like there is in Christianity or Islam. There's required behavior, but not required beliefs (you can't force yourself to believe something; that's a bit like a form of mind control).
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree, God has no equal. Whats with the dash?
  
  So there are references to a play called Abrahams bossom. Is that where the afterlife is? I guess I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around there not being a traditional hell. But I guess it makes sense, I have been taught that when Christ decended into the earth during the day between his death and reserrection he was opening the gates to heaven and hell so I guess that old testament afterlife system wouldn't support a eternal hell or a momentary hell.
  
  I have always thought it was important for Christians to study Jewdisim to understand where we come from but most don't think that way. I'm just trying to understand what's what I guess.
  
  So, you do recongnize there was a man named Jesus or Yeshua right?
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It doesn't have to make sense to you. Jews don't believe Gentiles have to understand Jewish beliefs or perform the mitzvot for that matter. I'm not saying that as a brushoff at all, but rather that Judaism is not an evangelical religion.
  
  Hell or any type of eternal punishment would be inconsistent with a loving G-d. The New Testament uses a lot of concepts borrowed from the Mediterranean pagan cults popular at the time, including the idea of hell, of the devil, and of human sacrifice to appease an angry G-d. These concepts don't come from Judaism.
  
  About Jesus: I know he is an important and inspirational figure to Christians, just like Joseph Smith was to Mormons, Siddhartha Gautama was to Buddhists, Mohammad to Muslims, etc. I haven't given much thought to whether he really existed, because he doesn't matter to me. Does the actual historical veracity of Jesus matter to your faith?
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  All right well, if I am reading this right I have aggitated you or offended you in someway. So, sorry for doing that. Didn't mean any harm.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, not at all! That's why I said that my reply wasn't a brushoff. If you had offended or irritated me, I just wouldn't have bothered to respond.
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh ok, I wasn't sure. It's hard to read mood in text unless there are one of those smilies thrown in for context
  
  Anyway, sorry for taking so long on my reply. I had a stroke recently and Pt has been quite taxing recently.
  
  I have been trying to figure out the roots of Christian faith and have only found twisted idology impossed by the catholics it seems like. I believe that a man named Christ lived because of the different faiths effected by him. His effect on the world and his, I feel, sound reasoning. I can't say I dissagree with anything written in the gospels that he said. However I do disagree with alot of what Paul said in the new testament. Anyway, I guess I am trying to understand Judaism in respect to christianity. Afterall without Judaism, there would be no christianity.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, that might be true. I will say this: the more a Christian emulates Christ and less they emulate Paul (and whatever psychopath wrote Revelations), the more I see some common ground.
  
  I don't believe any religion has any value than what it gives to you. I don't think it requires magic, miracles, or anything like that, except prescient wisdom and the ability to adapt and prod us to be better people than we would otherwise.
  
  (And I'm sorry to hear about your stroke! I hope you're recovering well...)
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  wavegirl22posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Your response made me think of this .. its taken from Leonard Nimoy on his take on 'What Being a Jew Means to Me'
  
  If you want to read more here is the link for the article at Being Jewish
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Beautiful article. I like Wiesel's and Moses's answers, too. I think "family, charity, wisdom, compassion, social justice, culture" capture exactly what I find valuable in Judaism. If someone else finds those same things through another religion or something non-religious entirely, more power to them.
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you for the well wishes, I feel like I am getting better. Useing a walker for puttering around the house and a wheelchair when the wife and kids and I go out but so far doing ok.
  
  I was born with a protien deficiency that causes my blood to clot fairly easily. I think about death and faith and life alot. I can't seem to help it, I think about alot of things while dubstep plays softly in the backround Usually The Glitch Mob. Anyway, thanks for your conversation. It's been real!
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Likewise! Take care of yourself.
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  Debby Bruckposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I wrote a hub about using the "dash" when writing the name of The Creator
  http://debbybruck.hubpages.com/hub/Poet … -G-ds-Name
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pisean282311posted 12 years ago
why should jews believe in jesus ?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Because He is their long-awaited Messiah, and they're missing the boat if they can't see Him....
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  pisean282311posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  thats ur belief....and u r right from that perceptive but wrong from jews perceptive...whose right , whose wrong can't be decided by humans or books...
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  He isn't our messiah, any more than Bar Kochba, Shabbatai Zvi, or Menachem Mendel Schneerson were (they were also people who claimed to fulfill the messianic requirements).
  
  But, of course, he (or anyone else you like) can be your messiah, since you're using different definitional requirements.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There can be only One.
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  pisean282311posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  yup but it doesnot mean that one has to be jesus...thats ur belief and u have right to believe jesus...but dont have right to comment on other's belief as right or wrong....isnt it?
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, but I'm not at liberty to be wishy-washy about God's Holy Word. A Christian has no business straddling the religious nor the political fence. Being lukewarm is cause for God spewing a person outta His mouth.
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  pisean282311posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  again what u say as Holy word is your belief and in same line jews have their own holy book with holy words and so have muslims and others....ironically none have liberty to be wishy-washy about god's holy word...only thing conclusive about this is how humans think...rest is mere belief....
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not entirely true. If you've ever met God, you'll know it's not just belief.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So you've met God? Did he specifically say to you that Christ is the only way and that your understanding of the scriptures was correct? Or are you assuming that Christ is the only way and your understanding is correct because you have met God? There's a huge difference in the two. I'm interested in which it is for you.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  He said that Christ is the only way, but I need to search out the scriptures for myself. I wasn't born understanding them, nor have I claimed that.
  
  My answer is actually more complex because the situation is more complex. These forums lend themselves to soundbite theology (or soundbite anti-religiosity) more than depth and research. But if I had to boil my answer down, that would be it.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Let me see if I understand correctly. You are telling me that God appeared before you and stated, unambiguously, that Christ was the only way. I'm not talking about your scriptures. I'm referring to your statement that if you have met God you'll know it isn't a belief.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, you don't understand me correctly, which is why I don't like soundbite theology (or soundbite anti-religiousness either.)
  God spoke to me. No man has ever seen God (it says that in the Bible.) I certainly haven't seen His literal face. But I have heard His voice. Sometimes in the Scripture,sometimes in my head, sometimes by seeing things that were prayed for that came through.
  This is still not a full explanation. As ATM keeps demonstrating, it's difficult to explain and if someone (and I don't know if you are this someone or not) has their mind set against it to begin with, misunderstanding is inevitable. But I will still try and I will willingly answer questions.
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  pisean282311posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  its ok...happens to lot of people all across globe where they believe they have heard/seen god saying their version is true version...version differ,faiths differ, faith figure differ...experience is similar...again whats conclusive is how similar human beings are....
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I have no problem with faith in God. The problem is when the religious make bold statements like;
  
  When we die, it will be too late. Jesus claimed to be the only way to the Father. So you'd better be sure here, because after the Resurrection, we'll all be questioned.
  
  If you've ever met God, you'll know it's not just belief.
  
  I state that unequivocally because I've heard Him.
  
  And, don't get me wrong. I find it just as appalling when someone who follows Islam or Judaism dashes about insisting they have wisdom into the mind of a deity. It's cute, until it is followed by condemnation of those who don't believe as the believer does. Then, I tend to ask for clarification. They usually start back pedaling, as you have.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly, it's all in your head.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "I have no problem with faith in God. The problem is when the religious make bold statements like;
  
  When we die, it will be too late. Jesus claimed to be the only way to the Father. So you'd better be sure here, because after the Resurrection, we'll all be questioned. "
  
  I don't claim special insight into the mind of God. I only restate what Jesus plainly said about Himself. I have no special revelation.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The things believers will say to get attention.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  :lol
  
  Look who's talking!
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  Daliah Legoposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  Hmmmmmm, do you mean this? I would rather miss this boat.
  
  P.S. He is not their long-awaited Messiah. They are still waiting for The Messiah.
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  lovinghim2-8-57posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The Jews asked for a KING and GOD sent them ONE. They didn't like the way HE looked....he rode in on a donkey and HE wasn't ONE who looked beautiful enough to be their KING.....they just weren't satisfied with the KING GOD sent them...so sad but when you search for HIM with ALL your might, your soul and strength then you will find HIM.....(not sure of exact wording...but more or less what it says.)
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Has nothing to do with looks, or what manner of animal he rode in on. Did you not read Sonya's post? I guess not.
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  lovinghim2-8-57posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I read the post at the top of this page...I don't know if it is Sonya's as that is not the name on that post it is Truly different I believe. I am new to this forum...but not new in knowing JESUS. I read most of the posts....i respect all of the views posted and as I wrote is as I believe...be it wrong to you and others it is still how I feel. He was KING of the Jews....they asked for HIM.....but as you know....they have never believed HE was the KING they asked for. Some Jews do believe....and they are blessed....for I believe they looked for HIM inspite of what they were taught.
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  Truly Differentposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  My real name is Sonya and I live in Israel. My name on HubPages is Truly Different and I post here only when I come to visit my friend who lives in USA. So, everything is kosher
  
  I respect your position and your views. Thanks God we live in the times when we are free to have choices. You may keep your views and beliefs for yourself.
  
  I believe that the article I quoted here gives enough base for you and others to understand the Jewish position. All what I'd like from you and others is to leave it to us (Jews) to decide what is right for us.
  
  P.S. I don't think that you've read the article I posted here.
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  Truly Differentposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you, livelonger, for your help and support. Your knowledge of the subject is amazing.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you, Sonya. I think exegesis of Jewish scripture is fascinating, and debate/disagreement is, of course, encouraged in Judaism. But, of course, everyone applies their own hermeneutic, and the one Christians apply creates conflicts with the one normative Jews apply. Your post very patiently explains the common Jewish viewpoint, for those willing to read through and understand (regrettably that's not everyone).
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  paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus was not a King with a dynasty with any physical borders; he was a Levite and not even from the lineage of King David.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ultimately, why anyone should believe in Jesus is a matter of personal choice. Either you do or you don't. But He did claim to be the Son of God, so you need to make the decision. And He did claim to be the only way to the Father, and He also told often of the disastrous consequences of not believing in Him.
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  ReuVeraposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh My Gosh, Chris, do you realize that you've just said that Jesus is a bully who will make you obey him because he blackmails you with bad bad consequences if you don't?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh my gosh, reu, do you realize that taking my words and trying to turn them into something they're not doesn't in the least impress me?
  And that you've totally missed the point?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Then, you have given us one reason alone not to love or worship such an evil being if he leaves one with no choice.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You do insist on being thick, don't you?
  
  Well, live and let die!
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So, a personal insult, once again, due to lack of intelligent response. Well done and thoroughly expected.
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You know, I used to waste my time trying to reason with you. Then I noticed that you deal almost exclusively in personal insults due to lack of intelligent respons. So, I came to expect it from you. Then I noticed that you seem to have "easy target" painted on your forhead, as in your responses (to me at least) aren't even very deep or difficult. So I gave up trying to be serious with you and just have fun.
  
  And you never disapoint me!
  
  But the four fingers never gets old either.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are you referring to the fantasy laden faith based nonsense in your posts?
  
  Said the kettle to the pot.
  
  LOL! You were serious?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ah, Mr. Common Sense speaks up!
  
  "Said the kettle to the pot..." You kill me! But you're never funny than when you show that indignance you claim not to have!
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Fantasy laden faith based nonsense is funny when grown adults embrace it.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And the hits just keep on comin'.....
  
  At least one of us here is an adult.
  
  Bye.
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lone77starposted 12 years ago
Sonya, the link was snipped. Someone must not like what the Rabbi has to say. I hate that kind of censorship. If you don't mind, could you send me the link?

Thanks!
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  Truly Differentposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  did it.
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whoisbidposted 12 years ago
If you truly follow Moses teaching, then you are believing in Jesus
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And the Mormons say that if you truly follow Jesus's teaching, then you should be a Mormon. Are you?
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Upper most is the Law. Obeyance of the Law is the factor. If one believes in God and follows the Law, then Jesus was not sent to them. He was sent to the LOST sheep of Israel. Belief in God and Obeyance of the Law places one in the set whom Jesus wasn't intended for. Jews, those of the tribe of Judah, in belief and obeyance of God , simply do not require the blood sacrifice of Jesus. Of course, if it makes you more comfortable, you can say this is merely my opinion. My authority is of the Law.
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  rasta1posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This is true, this must have been spiritually revealed to you.
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
P.S. You brought up an interesting point, one which has been batted about in the forums quite extensively. Jews do not deny the existence of the man known as the Christ, who was named Jesus (Yeshuah). Please inform the atheists. I tried to tell them it's a stupid denial.
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Truly Differentposted 12 years ago
http://www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html

First of all, here is the link again, Try to hurry and read it before admins would snip it again. It looks that whatever I post (whatever truth I post), they just don't want others to get this info.....

Now, hello to all and thank you for posting on the thread.

Some clarifications- I did not try to prove anything to Christians who had chosen to worship idols, to make icons, to wear a device of murder on their chest, to sin and think that they are saved default if they do all the mentioned above.

My point was just to show to you why we Jews do not consider Jesus a Messiah. My point was to ask Christians not to prove to us Jews that Jesus is a Messiah. You believe what you've chosen to believe. Don't ask us Jews to follow your misunderstanding.

Again, I repeat- Jews no not deny that Jesus existed as a person. He was not a Messiah, this is the point. There were others who claimed this "title", like Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi, or Lubavitcher Rebbe. But they all failed.
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  y2bpositiveposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Kol Hakavod lecha!
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  ReuVeraposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Toda raba. Aval ani isha.
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  Moon Daisyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  Truly Differentposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  gam ani
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know about any other Christians, but I haven't "chosen" to believe that Jesus is the Messiah. He has proved Himself to me.
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  lovinghim2-8-57posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  AMEN!!! It's not even a matter of the brain....and knowing that you know that JESUS is GOD and that only 1 GOD exists....I just know it is true in my heart. Like I explained to my son the scientist.....I told him I loved him.....and he stood there....I asked him do you believe that I love you? He said yes...I asked why do you believe it? He said I just believe it....I said but maybe I don't love you really.....he said, "Mom I know you love me...because you are my mom." I said but how come you believe that I love you.....he said...".I just know it mom!"....I said.....well son.....that's how I feel about JESUS.....I just know that I know that I know that HE is real and HE is WHO HE says HE is.....right here in my heart, I just know it!....it's all a matter of the heart....
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And for the ones of us who dont know it we all go to hell?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  As harsh as it sounds, the answer is yes. The NT has many stories, told by Jesus Himself, that make that very point.
  
  You can choose not to believe in Him, but He has made Himself known, and His meaning can't be mistaken. He either is the Son of God or He was a complete lunatic. There's no middle ground of other interpretations.
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  lovinghim2-8-57posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks Chris....I hated to be the one to tell Jesus was a hippy that which you told him. It is a horrible thing to tell people but it is the truth and I wish that they would all know that HE is just wanting the chance to show himself to them......but one day HE will....I just hope it isn't too late for my sons and others who think it is a big joke.....
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So you force yourself to believe something, because you think there is an enormous penalty if you don't.
  
  Sounds like blackmail to me.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If you believe there is an enormous penalty for not believing something, then really isn't any force involved. You either do or you don't.
  
  And also, that depends on what penalty we're talking about. If you believe the penalty for denying Jesus is eternal damnation, then you already believe, whether you like it or want to go along with it or not. At that point it's not about what you know but what you do with it.
  
  And that's not blackmail.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Im going to say this for the millionth time on this forum, Belief is not a choice.
  
  I cannot decide to believe in the bible. I dont believe it is true because I find it unbelievable.
  
  Funny really because so many christians use the free will argument so how come I dont have the free will to beleive in the bible?
  
  More to the point, why would someone considered to be all loving, send me to hell for ETERNITY because I cannot force myself to believe something that I deem to be unbelievable?
  
  EVEN MORE to the point, why would you WORSHIP such a sadistic arsehole?
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly right. You can regulate your own behavior, but you can not control what you believe.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, and as a Calvinist I have no trouble saying this, I mostly agree with your assessment of belief. But so many people, Christian and not, use the language that I find myself doing so as well just to avoid needless arguments.
  
  I believe in the Bible because God has spoken to me in many different ways and at many different times, including through the Bible. I don't always understand it, I have often struggled with it, but I find it believable. I come from a family of unbelievers, so it didn't come naturally.
  
  Ever lied? Ever cheated? Ever stolen? Of course you have, so have I and everyone else who's ever lived (except Jesus.) Has G-d ever done those things? NO! But if you want to get into Heaven, you have to be as holy as G-d! But you can't be, because if you commit just one of those sins you've become less than perfect. The animals sacrifices (or honestly, whatever system of works you care to substitute, because any religion other than Biblical Christianity is a system of works) can take care of some of the sins, but no one could ever do enough to work their way into Heaven. You just can't. So Jesus, G-d from the very beginning, before there was time, took on human flesh so that He could take on our sins, not by being sinful Himself but by being sinless, so that all of our sins could be imputed (assigned by inference) to Him and washed away from us, so that we can be accepted by the sinless, holy G-d into Heaven. Which, by the way, does not in any way make G-d smaller but instead just magnifies Him and His glory.
  
  Which is why that bit flippancy at the end, aside from just being debased, will come back to haunt you some day.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  Really? Are you sure about that? You assume that because you lack morals and ethics, other lack them, too?
  
  True, God sticks to the things he knows best and doesn't bother with trivial crimes, like wiping out all the folks on earth or commanding humans to slaughter one another.
  
  Then, by your own words, having morals and ethics is the same as being perfect.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, assuming that you lack morals and ethics is more a matter of evidence than assumption.
  
  Keep trying though, you might get it one of these times!
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The lack of morals and ethics in regards to evidence can be shown by those who believe they must tell us about Jesus.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Wow, that almost sounded well thought-out!
  
  You're getting closer!
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  ReuVeraposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, lunatics are those who fall victims to a good advertising. Jesus Christ is a classical example of a good marketing promoted by Paul at a needed time for a needed layer of population. It took about four hundred of years to establish new writings. Who could remember who said what?
  
  "Christianity started out in Palestine as a fellowship; it moved to Greece and became a philosophy; it moved to Italy and became an institution; it moved to Europe and became a culture; it came to America and became an enterprise." Sam Pascoe
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Um, try about one hundred years. And that still time for plenty of people to remember who said and did what, or say that those things were not said or done.
  
  But whose counting, right?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I will say that Mr. Pascoe was right. I don't think you really understand what that means, but it's right.
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  ReuVeraposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I sure understand it in a different way than you do, but it's ok.
  
  My advantage is that as a Jew I do not have to prove anything to anybody. What I ask (as my other friends Jews do too) is that Christians of all denominations would not try to prove to me tier views and understandings.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus did claim to be the only way. He did command us to make disciples of the nations. He did say that if we don't love Him with all our mind, heart and soul, we're not going to like the next life no matter what we did in this one.
  
  I understand that people want to live their own lives. But I'm responsible for not telling people. If I know a flood will wipe out a town, and I don't tell anyone because no one wanted to hear it, then I'm responsible for all the lives that are lost.
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  ReuVeraposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  He said it to you.
  We read our Book in Hebrew, not in translations. We don't need a middle man to help us to be in contact with God Almighty. We can be in direct contact with HIM. We were saved already being born Jews. We are not threaten to burn in hell, because we don't have hell. We have a better after world (or more correct, following word- olam abaa) and everyone can get there, even though not immediately, but through the process of improvement. But this is another story.
  
  You didn't get what Sonya tried to tell you. You as a person is responsible for yourself.
  If it is about saving others from a flood in a life situation, go save them and it does not matter at all if you are a Christian, or a Jew or a Muslim. However, keep your views for yourself in a sense of theology. FYI- there's no bigger sin in The God's eyes than trying to convert a Jew.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly. I think Chris is confusing his two contradictory narratives now.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I as a Christian am responsible for other people. The Bible makes that very, very clear. No one is responsible for themselves only. Other people may not listen, but I must still tell them.
  God says "Tell them."
  You say, "Shut up."
  To whom should I listen?
  
  FYI - Jesus made it very, very clear that not following Him is the greatest sin. Again, you may not agree, but that's my God.
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  paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  Jesus never declared that he was the Creator God and be he did not believe in any Trinity.
  
  By believing Jesus as your god, your are not following Jesus.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You listen to your own honesty, integrity and respect, which should tell you to keep your beliefs to yourself.
  
  No, you are not responsible for me. No, you must not tell us.
  
  We have rights and those rights allow us to make sure you don't tell us.
  
  Will you respect our rights?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm still trying to decide whether you intentionally miss the point or are really that dense.
  
  I'd like to think the former, which means there would be hope for you.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Please do explain to me the point I missed without the personal insults.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Please do explain to me the point I missed without the personal insults"
  
  It was explained.
  
  Then you started insulting.
  
  Repeatedly.
  
  So why bother?
  
  The only thing you're interested in is thinking you've just zinged me.
  
  Pity, really, but it wasn't my choice.
  
  If you ever actually have game, I'm here. But so far you've been mainly trash-talk.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ah, so you're just making that up. Thought so.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Then, who is responsible for you?
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  ReuVeraposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Again, there are two unmixable things- Jewish TANACH and Christian Bible, what they call New Testament. From the point of view of Jews, there is NO old testament or new testament. What you read in New Testament, is not necessarily came from "Old Testament". New Testament, a remix of TANACH has nothing to do with Jews.
  
  If you, as a Christian, break the first Commandment and get Jesus as your god, then go ahead, it's your stuff, not mine. I don't argue with you. Just don't shovel this remix into my throat. How many times do I have to tell this for you to get it?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No problem letting us know a flood will wipe us out, but what that has to do with converting disciples by shoving your beliefs down our throats is still baffling?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You're so busy shoving yours down other peoples throats, it's little surprise you have that reaction.
  
  The bling throttling the blind, ATM?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I can understand that. But if Jesus really is God, then wouldn't it be kinder of us to tell you than not to?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You have nothing but faith that your god exists so there is no way you can know if Jesus is anything other than a myth.
  
  Hence, please keep it to yourself and not tell us your fantasies. Thanks.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sure, there is, Jesus never existed hence he was neither the Son of God or a complete lunatic.
  
  That doesn't say anything about the followers of Christianity, though. Or, is it telling?
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  paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus did not claim to be a god or son of god as Christians mythically believe him to be.
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  Jesus was a hippoposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If a man calls someone father, is that not implying that they are their son? Surely you can see how people may infer that only a son would call a man "father"?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That is interesting, isn't it, Paarsurrey. Telling, too.
  
  Here, we have a modest Rabbi wandering the countryside teaching people to be good to one another and helping them as best he could. He never claimed to be a god but instead just a man who believed in one.
  
  However, Muhammad on the other hand did in fact proclaim he was a prophet of God after he claimed Gabriel visited and began revealing the Quran, alone, by himself in a cave, with no one else around, ever.
  
  So, here we have two individuals, one who is going around demonstrating God through actions while the other is proclaiming God through mere words. The former demonstrates by showing kindness, forgiveness and courage while the latter proclaims worship and obedience to a God and wants everyone to simply take his word for it.
  
  We have seen such men like Jesus wandering the earth doing good deeds, helping others with kind words and actions and asking nothing for themselves in return.
  
  We also see men like Muhammad, carpetbaggers and con artists, men who want you to believe them so they might take advantage of others ignorance and gullibility.
  
  Given a choice, Jesus would be da man!
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Quoted for posterity.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I knew it would be someone, but I didn't know it would be you. However, I'm really glad it was.
  
  Btw, did you like that post overall?
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, the part about Jesus was close enough to my own beliefs to be pretty happy with I'm not sure about the Islamic beliefs because while I've read the Koran (or at least the English translation of such), I haven't studied it nearly as well as I would need to to come to a conclusion. Plus I'm not well-enough versed on the society and history of the religion well enough to put it into context. The general feeling I get is the fundamentalists of that religion are almost indistinguishable from the Christian fundamentalists in both philosophically and personality. The moderate Muslims that I have met are also very much like the moderate Christians. Liberals are the same world-wide .
  
  Of course, I generally believe that zealots find religions rather than religion creating zealots so I would likely form that opinion anyway.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I take it back. You really don't know. If you read the Bible, you find a modest rabbi wandering the countryside, teaching people to be nice to each other, then wandering into the city and claiming to be the Son of God. You might have missed it, but the first century Jewish leaders certainly did not.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Nor did the Christians miss that worshiping Jesus as a God DEFINITELY violated that "You shall have no gods before me" thing. Technically, it still does. That's why the Nicean council did that whole... No, really Jesus and God are the same person... they disliked being burned for heretics... go figure. It was really convenient that the Romans had just conquered a group of heathens with a trifecta goddess shortly before the council brainstormed THAT little beauty.
  
  Also, since zealotous Christians seem to have a habit of breaking those pesky little commandments...in mass... they seemed to ignore that whole "Do onto others" rule by deciding that it was their job to force the bible down everyone's throat in the world.
  
  I personally think that every Evangelical Christian should be forced to listen to as many hours of a zealot from another religion preaching as they spend "spreading the word". That way God's commandments (which are BTW the only thing he ever wrote personally) are kept.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "I personally think that every Evangelical Christian should be forced to listen to as many hours of a zealot from another religion preaching as they spend "spreading the word"."
  
  Wish granted. You have no idea how many hours we Evangelicals are forced to spend listening to others beliefs whether we want to or not. And I mean that, because if you did you wouldn't express that wish in the way you did, you would say how glad you are that Evangelicals are increasingly being forced to sit in a corner and keep it to ourselves.
  
  You have some knowledge of history but not fully. Jesus DID claim to be the Son of God (no really! It's in the Bible!) And since Christians ARE monotheists and Jesus Himself claimed that He came not to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it, it became only logical that He would be part of God.
  
  As for that "Also, since zealotous Christians seem to have a habit of breaking those pesky little commandments...in mass... they seemed to ignore that whole "Do onto others"" remark...HELLO! You obviously have no idea how many of us Evangelicals say EXACTLY THE SAME THING!
  Jesus told us to be Holy as our Father (God) is Holy, and that unless our holiness exceeds that of the religious leaders we can't get into Heaven. Most people don't do that. In fact, we can't all by ourselves, that's why we need Jesus. But Jesus told several stories (notably the story of the Wide and Narrow Doors) about how many people who THINK they're "good Christians" will be surprised when He says "I never knew you."
  
  Your interpretation of the Nicean Council is interesting but a little off.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  LOL! How does that work?
  
  Can you show us or do we just have to take your word for it?
  
  That's a pretty lame reason for needing Jesus.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Please show me where Jesus claimed he was the Son of God?
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  A short list of where Jesus claimed to be God or the Messiah:
  
  Mark 14:61-62
  Luke 5:20
  John 2:19
  John 4:25-26
  John 6:46
  John 8:58
  John 10:25-30
  John 10:30-33
  John 13:13
  
  He didn't explicitly use the word Son, but He did claim to be God and He did make explicit reference to His Father, which would make Him the Son.
  
  I'm under no illusions that this will convert you, but it does answer your straightforward question.
  
  This is actually a great idea for a hub!
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  WHOA! Hold the phone a minute, no one said anything about Jesus claiming to be a Messiah. Nice of you to dishonestly move the goalposts to defend your faith.
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The goal post was not moved.
  
  However, true to form, when given the chance to act like a serious, thoughtful person, you immediately attack, insult and in general show that real conversation is not what interests you.
  
  And the four fingers continue to accuse you.
  
  But, as I said before, when you got game, let's play. Suckers talk.
  
  And still only one of us here is an actual adult (hint: not you.)
  
  Bye.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Even though you obviously moved it considering the question at hand was whether or not Jesus claimed to be a god. Can we expect more focus on me will follow, too?
  
  Yup.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Even though you obviously moved it considering the question at hand was whether or not Jesus claimed to be a god. Can we expect more focus on me will follow, too?"
  
  Seriously, that's your parting shot?
  
  At least you left me laughing!
  
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Truly Differentposted 12 years ago
Here are some extractions from the article. I know that it for sharing.

Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because:
Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.
Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.
Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.
Jewish belief is based on national revelation.
But first, some background: What exactly is the Messiah?
The word "Messiah" is an English rendering of the Hebrew word "Mashiach", which means "Anointed." It usually refers to a person initiated into God's service by being anointed with oil. (Exodus 29:7, I Kings 1:39, II Kings 9:3)
Since every King and High Priest was anointed with oil, each may be referred to as "an anointed one" (a Mashiach or a Messiah). For example: "God forbid that I [David] should stretch out my hand against the Lord's Messiah [Saul]..." (I Samuel 26:11. Cf. II Samuel 23:1, Isaiah 45:1, Psalms 20:6)
Where does the Jewish concept of Messiah come from? One of the central themes of Biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of God. (Isaiah 2:1-4; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Isaiah 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)
Many of these prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. (Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5)
Since every King is a Messiah, by convention, we refer to this future anointed king as The Messiah. The above is the only description in the Bible of a Davidic descendant who is to come in the future. We will recognize the Messiah by seeing who the King of Israel is at the time of complete universal perfection.

More extracts to follow.
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Truly Differentposted 12 years ago
1. Jesus Did Not Fulfill the Messianic Prophecies
What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:
Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world ― on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah."
Because no one has ever fulfilled the Bible's description of this future King, Jews still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.
Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright; in the Bible no concept of a second coming exists.
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Truly Differentposted 12 years ago
2) Jesus Did Not Embody the Personal Qualifications of Messiah
A. Messiah as Prophet
The Messiah will become the greatest prophet in history, second only to Moses. (Targum - Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides - Yad Teshuva 9:2)
Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry, a situation which has not existed since 300 BCE. During the time of Ezra, when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets ― Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.
Jesus was not a prophet; he appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.
B. Descendent of David
According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, (1) nor will he possess supernatural qualities.
The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father ― and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David. (2)
C. Torah Observance
The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)
Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"
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Truly Differentposted 12 years ago
3) Mistranslated Verses "Referring" to Jesus
Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text ― which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.
A. Virgin Birth
The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.
B. Suffering Servant
Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."
In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. Throughout Jewish scripture, Israel is repeatedly called, in the singular, the "Servant of God" (see Isaiah 43:8). In fact, Isaiah states no less than 11 times in the chapters prior to 53 that the Servant of God is Israel. When read correctly, Isaiah 53 clearly [and ironically] refers to the Jewish people being "bruised, crushed and as sheep brought to slaughter" at the hands of the nations of the world. These descriptions are used throughout Jewish scripture to graphically describe the suffering of the Jewish people (see Psalm 44). Isaiah 53 concludes that when the Jewish people are redeemed, the nations will recognize and accept responsibility for the inordinate suffering and death of the Jews.
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Truly Differentposted 12 years ago
4) Jewish Belief is Based Solely on National Revelation
Throughout history, thousands of religions have been started by individuals, attempting to convince people that he or she is God's true prophet. But personal revelation is an extremely weak basis for a religion because one can never know if it is indeed true. Since others did not hear God speak to this person, they have to take his word for it. Even if the individual claiming personal revelation performs miracles, there is still no verification that he is a genuine prophet. Miracles do not prove anything. All they show ― assuming they are genuine ― is that he has certain powers. It has nothing to do with his claim of prophecy.
Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).
Of the thousands of religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation ― i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person.
Maimonides states (Foundations of Torah, ch. 8):
The Jews did not believe in Moses, our teacher, because of the miracles he performed. Whenever anyone's belief is based on seeing miracles, he has lingering doubts, because it is possible the miracles were performed through magic or sorcery. All of the miracles performed by Moses in the desert were because they were necessary, and not as proof of his prophecy.
What then was the basis of [Jewish] belief? The Revelation at Mount Sinai, which we saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears, not dependent on the testimony of others... as it says, "Face to face, God spoke with you..." The Torah also states: "God did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us ― who are all here alive today." (Deut. 5:3)
Judaism is not miracles. It is the personal eyewitness experience of every man, woman and child, standing at Mount Sinai 3,300 years ago.
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Truly Differentposted 12 years ago
And this is for desert-

1. Maimonides devotes much of the "Guide for the Perplexed" to the fundamental idea that God is incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. God is Eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes human form makes God small, diminishing both His unity and His divinity. As the Torah says: "God is not a mortal" (Numbers 23:19).
2. In response, it is claimed that Joseph adopted Jesus, and passed on his genealogy via adoption. There are two problems with this claim:
a) There is no Biblical basis for the idea of a father passing on his tribal line by adoption. A priest who adopts a son from another tribe cannot make him a priest by adoption;

b) Joseph could never pass on by adoption that which he doesn't have. Because Joseph descended from Jeconiah (Matthew 1:11) he fell under the curse of that king that none of his descendants could ever sit as king upon the throne of David. (Jeremiah 22:30; 36:30)
To answer this difficult problem, apologists claim that Jesus traces himself back to King David through his mother Mary, who allegedly descends from David, as shown in the third chapter of Luke. There are four basic problems with this claim:
a) There is no evidence that Mary descends from David. The third chapter of Luke traces Joseph's genealogy, not Mary's.

b) Even if Mary can trace herself back to David, that doesn't help Jesus, since tribal affiliation goes only through the father, not mother. Cf. Numbers 1:18; Ezra 2:59.

c) Even if family line could go through the mother, Mary was not from a legitimate Messianic family. According to the Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of David through his son Solomon (II Samuel 7:14; I Chronicles 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6). The third chapter of Luke is irrelevant to this discussion because it describes lineage of David's son Nathan, not Solomon. (Luke 3:31)

d) Luke 3:27 lists Shealtiel and Zerubbabel in his genealogy. These two also appear in Matthew 1:12 as descendants of the cursed Jeconiah. If Mary descends from them, it would also disqualify her from being a Messianic progenitor.
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The third temple is. Sorry y'all didn't catch that one. Not being argumentative...just an observer.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  *********************
  
  Very good posts
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  Truly Differentposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  All these posts are from the snipped link, an article by Rabbi Shraga Simmons
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Deborah Sextonposted 12 years ago
They use to allow links to other sites, I don't understand this
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Stacie Lposted 12 years ago
forgive me if someone else mentioned this but I didn't read all the posts;
There is a group called "Jews for Jesus" and according to Wikipedia...

Jews for Jesus is a conservative, Christian evangelical organization that focuses on the conversion of Jews to Christianity.[1][2][3] Its members consider themselves to be Jews – either as defined by Jewish law, or as according to the view of Jews for Jesus. Jews for Jesus defines “Jewish” in terms of parentage and as a birthright, regardless of religious belief.[4] The identification of Jews for Jesus as a Jewish organization is rejected by Jewish religious denominations[5][6] and secular Jewish groups[7][8] due to the Christian beliefs of its members. The group's evangelical activities have garnered mixed reactions from other Christian individuals and organizations, largely divided between liberal and conservative Christian lines.[9][1]"
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
Jews for Jesus are christian...Jews who don't accept Jesus is the topic. These are not seeking conversion, and to them, conversion is an abomination.
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jacharlessposted 12 years ago
Sad, really,
The man you speak of was a very well educated "Jew" & Hebrew.
All of his intimate followers were "Jews" & Hebrew.
His enemies, and enemies turned friend, were "Jews" & Hebrew.

If history is even remotely correct, nearly half of all the "1st century believing" (counted as 100 years of millions of people) were in fact "Jews" and/or Hebrew.
This was the Great Commission of the Twelve -to go and preach the Good News to all of Israel (Jews & Hebrew/Israeli) and then the world.

Even more, anyone who follows the ten commands, has been circumcised is a "Jew" -maybe not a Hebrew, but still.

and even greater, it makes absolutely no difference whether or not the "Jews" believe, it matters only what YOU do with these beliefs you hold dear, and crow with great fear.
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wavegirl22posted 12 years ago
I always find this question interesting, why does it matter to anyone what Jews think or dont think about Jesus.

Maybe what one needs to understand is that Judaism is a religion that is based on national revelation. In other words, when the Jews were given the Torah, G-d spoke to an entire nation, It is the personal eyewitness experience of every man, woman and child, who stood at Mount Sinai 3,300 years ago.

The Torah states (Deuteronomy 4:9-13):

(Moses told the Israelites:)
"Only beware for yourself and greatly beware for your soul, lest you forget the things that your eyes have beheld. Do not remove this memory from your heart all the days of your life. Teach your children and your children's children about the day that you stood before the Lord your God at Sinai..."

There are roughly 15,000 known religions in recorded human history, and it is only the Jewish religion that bases their belief on the idea that G-d spoke to their entire nation.

What is interesting to note here is that that both Christianity and Islam accept the Jewish revelation at Sinai. They both include the Five Books of Moses in their Bible, and hold the Sinai revelation as a key component of their religion.
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I can't speak for the Muslims but it is important for Christians or at least usually is for some to understand where the Jewish people place Jesus since he claimed to be the fulfillment of the law. He claimed to be the son of the Jewish God, Jesus claimed to be the continuation of that faith in a new convenient. Jesus taught the those who followed him and believed in him were engrafted into the vine, if the Christ hasn't come yet then every Gentile to believe has wasted their life. I for one have no desire to waste anything in my life, I understand that it is short and but a vapor in the breeze of time.
  
  Therefore, Christianity IS Judaism under the new convenient established by the prophesied messiah, Jesus Christ. I for one am extremely interested to learn where the Jewish people place Christ.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  With all due respect, we don't see Christianity as Judaism under a new covenant. It's quite a bit different from Judaism in many different ways. It's a bit of a misconception that Judaism is Christianity minus Christ.
  
  Jesus Christ does not figure in Judaism any more than Mohammad figures in Christianity. He might have been Jewish, but he is not part of our canon of prophets, and Jewish scripture does not address him at all. What Jews think should not matter at all, and what Christians should do (and many have) is recognize that Christianity has an entirely separate theology, so how your messiah figures in Judaism (i.e. not at all) should not matter at all. Can you understand it might be irritating to hear from a person from another religion that, no, your scripture is wrong, and our religion is the fulfillment of it? Mormonism claims to be a fulfillment of Christianity - does that mean that you need to care about what Joseph Smith said?
  
  From our perspective, we've had many people claim to be the messiah, and none of them have actually fulfilled any of the messianic requirements spelled out by the prophets. Jesus was only one of them. Shimon bar Kochba, Menachem Mendel Schneerson, Shabbatai Zvi are just three others I can remember.
  
  Again, what Jews think about Christ should not matter. If you believe he is a powerful role model or someone who fulfills a messianic role in your worldview, then more power to you. And Merry Christmas.
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you friend. I understand that Christ doenst factor into Judaism but he does factor into Christianity which Jesus taught was the extension of Judaism. With all due respect as well, no aggression in this post, you can't argue with what a religious structure is only if you agree with it.
  
  Either you believe Mohammad was the last prophet or not, you believe that Christ was the Messiah or not, but you can't argue with that the faith was built on. Being that Christ, a Jew, is the head of Christianity means that he taught from a Jewish perspective and even said he was here for the Jew first.
  
  I can understand how it would be offensive or aggrivating or even infuriating to hear a person from another religion say that, no, your scripture is wrong, and our religion is the fulfillment of it. be it doesn't change what that religion is.
  
  All three of the Abrahamic religions contest to be the true faith with each other to be the right way and in one way or another say that they are right or the fullfillment and the other is mislead.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Another difference between Judaism and Christianity (and Islam): Judaism does not claim to be the one true religion. It's the right religion for Jews, but we understand that you be a righteous person while professing another religion or none whatsoever.
  Unlike in Christianity and Islam, there is no proselytizing mission in Judaism, so no need to convince other people.
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But didn't Joseph not kneel before Pharaoh because he said he only kneels before God and that he doesn't interpret dreams but God does. In a very passive aggressive way he tells the man that believes himself to be god on earth that he isn't god and his own God is.
  
  David confronted Goliath stating, "Who is this Philistine who defies the army of the living God." Again making sure it is known that all others are worshipping dead gods or idols. I would have to say that if you are stating that someone is doing something wrong and that you are doing it right then you are clearly saying that your way is the right and only way.
  
  Many others profess to serve the one true God, God above all others didn't they? Doesn't that infer that Jews believe to have the true faith or they are spiritually above others?
  
  BTW happy Hanukah
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  ReuVeraposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Happy Hanukkah!
  
  Throughout the centuries Jews refused to follow other traditions, that's right.
  However, Jews never considered it right to force other people to follow Jewish traditions. Unlike Christianity that spread itself into tiniest corners of the world with missionaries, unlike Islam that tries to swallow others, Judaism was never "pushy".
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not saying it is Truley was not my intent to imply either. My only point was that the Muslims, Christians and Jews all believe they have the true faith.
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  terced ojosposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Captain I don't even know why you would entertain a Jew like this. Jews clearly believe they are above all people on earth who are non-Jews and that they are destined to rule over everyone who is not Jewish.
  
  Jews are notorious for their condescending belief that any non-jewish person who begins to speak of God is an ignorant Gentile and beneath them. They are "religious snobs."
  
  I've heard and saw Jews speak of and treat non-jews in this condescending manner many times; the most remarkable thing is these biggots don't realize that many of the people they patronize are well aware of their snobbery.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  terced ojosposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The reason Jews never forced their belief on others is because they believed anyone who was not a Jew was beneath them. Jews in general regard all non-jews/gentiles as "dogs." No self respecting Jew would begin to think of any "gentile" people as worthy of or equal to their self proclaimed status as "gods chosen." Judaism by definition is a belief system based in bigotry.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Bullcrap. Along with all the other untrue anti-Semitic posts you've added to this thread, I can put your homophobic comment that you left on one of my Hubs in proper perspective.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Don't be too hard on him. I always felt sorry for people who thought like that. Can you imagine spending your entire life hating other people who aren't like you because you assume that they hate you? How sad and lonely it must be to hate in retaliation to your own low self-esteem.
  
  I'm not sure if being aware of the fact that most of the free world simply doesn't give a crap about your -insert religion, sexual preference, etc. here- would make it better or worse. I, however, find the fact that there are over 6 billion people in this world who could give a flying erm...fig less about my faith to be kind of freeing. The fact that I could, likewise, give a rat's arse about the same 6 billion people's faith also helps put things in perspective. It eliminates all the B.S. and allows me to get down to disliking individual people based solely on the fact that they are a**clowns.
  
  Remember boys and girls... Low self-esteem (thinking everyone hates you)+ inflated ego (assuming that people outside of your circle of friends care about your existence)=persecution complex (The delusion that an entire group of people who don't know you from Adam actually give a crap enough to experience strong emotional reactions about you ).
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'd say that's a solid read, especially considering the repeated indignation at perceived snobbery. I've actually seen a similar phenomenon in the realm of politics, too: "I'm going to preemptively hate you, because I'm guessing you probably think you're better than me."
  
  The problem is when a mob with similar insecurities and the propensity to overindulge their persecution complexes have access to torches and pitchforks.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ah yes, but because of an apparent lack of imagination they seldom can actually light the torches and are more apt to carry the pitchforks handle-out than one would imagine.
  
  Such mobs often end up lighting themselves on fire after stabbing each other by accident repeatedly. It's great fun to watch. If you have one of those popcorn in the foil pan things, you can actually hold it over one of the downed members to fix yourself a snack.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  Gotta thank evolutionary pressure for helping weed out the totally brainless, right? Duly honored by the Darwin Awards.
  http://www.darwinawards.com/darwin/
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  LMAO, demmit LL, you know I am a Christian...er I mean a follower of Christ (having recently been removed from the Christian faith by the King of Christianity)... you should know better than to link me to an evolution site! It must be because you think I am a dog and that you are better than me... Will the insults never stop?!?!
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I can't help it! Bigotry is just an intrinsic part of our belief system!
  Fortunately, there is one place where you can now be free of these sorts of insults: your kitchen. An enterprising Christianist has created a "Christian salt" as an alternative to the kosher kind.
  http://www.9news.com/news/watercooler/s … ;catid=337
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  terced ojosposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  First i'm not anti-semitic. How come whenever you point out obvious discrimination perpetrated by Jews against non-jews you are called an anti-semite. That's ridiculous.
  
  You are the biggot not me.
  
  I think the holocaust was horrific and for you to somehow imply that I think like Hitler is b.s.
  
  Homophobic...pfffffffffffffff....please.
  
  I could care less who sleeps with who regardless of their gender. I post things that are outrageous and facetious at times not because I actually believe those things but because I'm exaggerating to show how ridiculous those veiw points are.
  
  Is this the part where you're going to tell me that Jews are not Racists or Biggots?.....Reaaaaalllly.
  
  Here's a flash for you as if you didn't know Jews discriminate on a regular and hide behind their "tradition" and call it okay.
  
  Whatever...
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  Moon Daisyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  terced, you speak as if forcing one's belief on others is a good thing!
  
  And I think you're making some big statements there, with sentences that start with things like "Jews in general". What you are doing is stereotyping. Jews, (like Christians, black people, men, women, white people, Americans, Welsh people etc..) are not one homogeneous group. They are all different, and so it is inaccurate and kind of bigoted to generalise in this way.
  
  And it's unfortunate for you that you have only met Jews who act as you describe. Maybe you should go out and meet more people.
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  terced ojosposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  LOL.......for the record I'm a black man....
  
  I've never understood why Jews play the "anti-semitic" card whenever you point out their racism and biggotry as if Jews don't perpetrate racists and homophobic acts towards other people...
  
  Pfffffff..staaaaap..livelonger you don't walk on water....
  
  I didn't mean to generalize....I really meant to express that within every culture there are biggots.
  
  So livelonger don't play the "anti-semitic" card when you know full well that within your culture there are "religious biggots," "racists," and yes "homophobes." Hell the book you so revere says to kill homosexuals and if I'm not mistaken lesbians...
  
  So just staaaaaap it.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Then you really ought to know better.
  Never said I did. Isn't that more of a Christian thing?
  You're confusing a number of things. I never claimed there were no religious bigots, racists or homophobes among Jews. I said your claim that Judaism is a bigoted religion is bullcrap, because it is. You don't understand the first thing about the "chosen people" element, or how Jews think about Gentiles, with the bullcrap you posted.
  
  And as for killing gays and lesbians: you are also unaware that the Torah is the starting point of our theology and not the end. Judaism has not sanctioned the death penalty for any reason for almost 2,000 years.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Scripture is often very ambiguous, and open to interpretation. It's true from your example that Jews have always rejected any person claiming to be G-d or a descendant of G-d. That's just one issue of the Jesus story that doesn't fit within our view. But if belief in Jesus makes you a decent Christian and a decent human being, more power to you.
  
  Saying that you reject anyone who claims to be G-d does not mean that you think your religion (faith is not a word I would use for Judaism, even if it does apply to Christianity and Islam) is the only true one, or that you're spiritually above others. There are many honorifics that Jews have applied over the ages to gentiles believed to be righteous. Even in discussions of the afterlife, Jews are not treated any better than non-Jews.
  
  The only explicit benefit of being part of the Jewish covenant is that Jews were a people that would be sustained as a people. Despite the countless expulsions, pogroms, and genocides, Jews are, in fact, still a people and still a light unto the nations (my opinion). How many of their ancient contemporaries can say the same thing?
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  AMEN! I believe that G-d has his hand on your people and that is why after all the genocide and countless expulsions and pogroms the Jews are STILL here and a nation to be recognized world wide.
  
  I like you buddy! You seem to be one of the few people other than like Cagsil and some others that I have been able to have a conversation with and not argue or debate.
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  terced ojosposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If Yeshua has said that in order to enter the kingdom of heaven you must be born again; you must recieve him as Lord and Saviour...
  
  If the majority of Jews don't accept or recieve Yeshua as the fulfillment of prophecy then they have no part with him...
  
  This is my understanding of part of the message of the New Testament.
  
  If this is true then most Jews past, present and future are not going to heaven...
  
  At least not those who actually believe in an after life because not all Jews do..
  
  As in Jesus's time Sadduccees and Pharisees had opposing views as to resurrection and an after life. So todays Jews differ in opinion as well.
  
  Christian doctrine clearly states that you cannot enter the kindgom of heaven without accepting Yeshua period...
  
  This being said means that most Jews will go to hell.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Judaism does not claim to be the one true religion."
  
  I've read that many times, but was it always so? I ask out of ignorance, not belligerence. Did rabbis during the time of Herod also teach that Judaism is not the "one true religion" and that gentiles could also be righteous?
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know. The rabbis did not record their thoughts in any sort of permanent form until well after Herod was dead.
  
  I do know the Idumeans (Herod's ancestors) were forcibly converted, and the travesty of Herod was just one reason Jews are loathe to convert anyone except the sincere.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you.
  
  That makes a great deal of sense.
  
  The Christian church's history of forced conversion has certainly not been a sterling example of faith in action, either.
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  limpetparasiteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  hahaha, this comment is so funny chris neal! my ancestors were neither christians nor jews but they surely were 'shoved in the throat' converted by the conquistadors, they instilled the fear of the light into the hearts of these paganic men.
  
  i myself am still a faithful roman catholic and so are the majority of the population in my island, even long after the foreign oppressors left several generations ago... so, is it safe to assume that faith through fear irregardless of being an ideal method of conversion, is in fact the recipe of effectiveness and success?
  
  just a thought...
  
  limpet
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Jeramiposted 12 years ago
Chris wrote
If you've ever met God, you'll know it's not just belief.

= = = =
ME
And yet ..(I think).. God walks along side some people most of their lives and they never knew who it was that was walking beside them, and aproving of how they were living their lives; ... when nobody else did.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Nicely stated jerami.
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I disagree. If God approves of them when no one else does, they know.
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ReuVeraposted 12 years ago
livelonger wrote:
The whole "refuse to believe" statement suggests Jews have been presented with overwhelming evidence of Jesus's claim to be a prophet/messiah/son of G-d and are just being obstinate. That evidence is a book written by Christians that, in parts, claims to override the Jewish Bible.

wavegirl22 wrote:
Spot on - - I could not have said it better!
--------------------------------------------------

I second and third you, guys.

As my friend Sonya noted, dear Christians, please, stop pushing your ideas on Jews. If you are comfortable with your version, keep it for yourself, we are fine with this. We have The Book, we have The Original, we don't need remake.
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  wavegirl22posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ReuVera wrote:
  livelonger wrote:
  The whole "refuse to believe" statement suggests Jews have been presented with overwhelming evidence of Jesus's claim to be a prophet/messiah/son of G-d and are just being obstinate. That evidence is a book written by Christians that, in parts, claims to override the Jewish Bible.
  
  wavegirl22 wrote:
  Spot on - - I could not have said it better!
  --------------------------------------------------
  
  I second and third you, guys.
  
  As my friend Sonya noted, dear Christians, please, stop pushing your ideas on Jews. If you are comfortable with your version, keep it for yourself, we are fine with this. We have The Book, we have The Original, we don't need remake.
  +1
  
  ReuVera
  
  Your Friend Sonja said it perfectly
  
  And I would like to add a Happy Chanukah to you!
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  ReuVeraposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Happy Hanukkah to you too! This is a special holiday for us, as it is teaching us not to surrender to assimilation.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed. Happy Hanukkah, ladies!
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wavegirl22posted 12 years ago
I agree with everything livelonger has just said and would like to just add this. .

Judaism is centered on the Torah, its commandments, the Tanakh, and ethical monotheism such as in the Shema. And all of the aboved mentioned is all before the time of Jesus.

Maybe you can understand it this way, in the same way that the Pope plays no role in the life of the Jewish people the same is true of Jesus.
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  y2bpositiveposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The Jews cause all the problems in the world. That what the world tells us. but they don't know why they have this tremendous love for us. Deep down inside, they know that the Jews are G-d's chosen\ never to be exchanged for another people. And the famous explanation of G-d abandoning us and negating his Covenant is necessary to "justify" writing a new book.
  
  It's a shame that gentiles have the easiest way into Heaven. The one and only Creator of the world, the G-d that Created us all, has given 7 commandments (the Noahide commandments) to follow and you have secured for yourself the world to come. Yet there persists this great hatred that they have for jews. Where does it come from? This comes from G-d himself.
  
  There is a spiritual answer for all physical occurences. The great hatred that the world has for the Jews is well known, but not well understood. Using the Jews as the scapegoat for the world's problems is nothing new. It is a guarantee that accompanied G-d's promises to Abraham the forefather of the Jews. Promising him that the Jews, his ultimate progeny, would be subject to 4 exiles before sending their messiah. They have already had three exiles;
  
  1. Babylonian exile (423-371 BCE)
  
  2. Persia & Media exile (371-356 BCE)
  
  3. Greek exile (318-138 BCE)
  
  4. Last exile of Rome (63 BCE -To our present day
  
  This fourth exile, the most bitter of them all represents the current darkness that the world is currently in. So I guess the Jews are so connected to G-d that the world MUST blame them for G-d's wish to extend this final exile of theirs.
  
  The world forgets that HISTORY REPEATS ITSELF--(which is a part of the G-d's Promise to Abraham upon completion of the exiles). When the final exile ends, and based on our current world events, the Jews will be raised up to the position of kingship just as Joseph, that lowly Hebrew slave that all the world detested, was ultimately raised up by G-d to rule over Egypt which was at that time the most powerful force on Earth.
  
  G-d's promise was that the hatred of the world for them will be undying and never cease until he sends their Messiah. So it thus understood how the Jews are expected to take responsibilty for all the violence--because the evil ones in the world will ALWAYS attribute it to them.
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  misterdiggsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ...and here I was this whole time thinking that G-d was punishing his only begotten people for being stiff necked, disobedient, whiney sniveling and ungrateful children...
  
  ...the only people to witness the Shekinah of God, see the red sea parted, witness the death of the firstborn of Egypt and on and on and on...and with all that they have witnessed they are still stiff necked, whiney, disobedient and ungrateful...
  
  ...maybe I'm reading this thing all wrong..
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Were you reading Torquemada?
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  misterdiggsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  i don't know who torquemada is; i have since googled the name after reading what you posted.
  
  i drew my original conclusion by my reading of the Old Testament...
  
  Complain, complain,...wander, wander, disobey.....disobey, punishment.......punishment...forgiveness......disobey,,,,mercy,,,,mercy,,,,mercy......punishment....blah blah blah
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paarsurreyposted 12 years ago
Why Jews don't believe in Jesus

The Jews should believe that Jesus was the Messiah; but if they don't believe that Jesus was a god or son of god; there they are right.
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  y2bpositiveposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  With all due respect, and I mean this--Jesus was a sinner. In fact, he was a Jew, because his father was a Jew. Only, due to the fact that his mother had him out of wedlock made him a Mamzer (illegitimate) and therefore he was (according to G-d's law) prevented from marrying into the authentic and pure lineage of Israel. Therefore, he had good grounds to hate the sages. Nevertheless, he was a Jew, despite his lowly position on the totem pole. Now, if the world decided to allow his rebel followers to convince them otherwise and to continue to perpetrate the lies and the man made theology then they have that right. They are only turning themselves astray. That’s why Jews have no commandment to convert gentiles. If G-d made you a Jew, he expects you to serve him with those obligations of a Jew. If G-d made you a gentile, he expects you to serve him with those commandments that he obligated you with--The Seven Noahide laws. Again, my intention is NOT intended to hurt or disrespect the beliefs of others, but I am the Lord thy G-d (means G-d, the One and Only creator of heaven and earth and NO OTHER). The belief in Jesus or any other person, animal, celestial creation, etc as a G-d is nothing short of idolatry, which is one of the 3 commandments we are expected to give up our lives rather than transgress--This itself shows the Gravity of sin that this belief entails.
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  paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Please quote from Torah where it is prohibited.
  
  Why OTBible mentions that a virgin will bear a child?
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  ReuVeraposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  As a matter of fact, from the strictly Judaical point of view Jesus is an illegitimate child (a Hebrew word "mamzer"-"bastard"), i.e. born in a wedlock, but not from a husband. Any child born to an unwed mother will be fully legitimate, but not a child born in a wedlock from another man. This is archaic, but it is so.
  
  Quoting from TORAH have to be in Hebrew in order to be a reliable source. However, mistranslation and manipulations of an original text led to what we have now. New Testament has little if at all to do with Hebrew TANACH, as it was mentioned before.
  
  Also, paarsurrey, you should read previous posts. This is what one of them says about the presumption that a vergin will bear a child:
  
  "Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text ― which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.
  A. Virgin Birth
  The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods."
  Christianity contains a big mess of Hellenistic (pagan) traditions, adapted to the point of laws. But it is not the point of this discussion.
  
  Live a decent honest life, respect other people and we all can have peace on the Earth.
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rbe0posted 12 years ago
Because if he really was Jesus then the Jews would feel really bad? Makes sense to me.
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limpetparasiteposted 12 years ago
i like to thank sonya and her neat hub about 'why jews do not believe in jesus'. the effort she put up in explaining, the patience and tolerance she had to endure while still coming up with a fair minded reply is truly noteworthy... and for me somewhat very brave.

i have read the article including each and every single reply post, counter arguments, colorful as they may be, some are pretty extreme, others somewhat debasing, invasive even and outright ignorant. most however, like the bantering of formalities between red beard and livelonger + others are in a way insightful. so i have come to generalize the overall thread as very interesting.

i myself grew up in a family that is a hodgepodge mix of indiginous paganism ,in all its ritualistic glory, with a mix of buddhism as a religious philosophy, and catholicism of the most evangelical kind...

i however, have my peace with the almighty and chose to be a roman catholic, simply because it is where i feel the most at ease. our religion, beliefs and philosophy defines our actions and give substance to who we are. but i do not harbor any disrespect to others belief, nor do i trample on the logic of their decisions to stay on a certain tenet. we are in the 21st century, time did not stop 2000 or 3000 years ago, we have a future role to fulfill as individuals, we are all converging towards an ultimate unification of understanding and enlightenment.

i believe that we are given the freedom of choice, and the rights of any one man should not supplant where the rights of the next man begins. the peace with our creator and the salvation of all mankind should start with our acceptance, understanding and respect of each others differences.

my apologies for the lengthy post but i can not help myself make this comment.

again thank you and this hub i will vote thumbs up.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Beautifully put.
  Also very nice. Look forward to your Hubs! (This is a forum post, not a Hub.)
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  limpetparasiteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  apologies for my ignorance and thank you for correcting me livelonger, i am new to this hubpages.com and thought that all post are considered hubs, i will try my best to publish some of my own.
  
  limpet
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paarsurreyposted 12 years ago
Why Jews don't believe in Jesus?

The Jews were at fault for not believing the truthful Jesus- the messenger prophet of the Creator God. The Jews still have a chance to believe in him.
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  lovinghim2-8-57posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  AMEN.....I believe exactly as you stated!
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  y2bpositiveposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  you poor souls are so lost! Why not get yourselves a living G-d with all due respect!
  
  if and when your ready, I am prepared to prove the error of your ways!
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paarsurreyposted 12 years ago
Why Jews don't believe in Jesus?

To prove that Jesus was not a truthful messenger of the Creator God; the Jews tried to kill him on the Cross; as it is mentioned in the Torah that a false messenger prophet would be killed as a punishment; Jesus knew their intention so he told them clearly that he was truthful messenger of the Creator God like that of Jonah; they won't be able to kill him on the Cross, if they tried he will be saved like Jonah was saved. It happened just like that and Jesus escaped a cursed death on the Cross.

The Jews were at fault for not believing the truthful Jesus- the messenger prophet of the Creator God. The Jews still have a chance to believe in him.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And Mohammad, too, right? Are the Christians also at fault for not believing in Mohammad, either?
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  paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes; the Christians are at fault not believing in Muhammad and Mirza Ghulam Ahmad- the Promised Messiah of our era.
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mriaskiableposted 12 years ago
When people live respectfully and faithful to their tradition and culture It makes it difficult to accept another Culture but many who believed by faith are open minded for good news which are for the new generation.
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MelissaBarrettposted 12 years ago
Yeah, I believe that Paul said that Jesus said that all of us were children of God as well.

I believe Psalms at least has many prayers that include "Our father"... That doesn't mean that I am delusional enough to think that my mother was a Virgin impregnated by God.

Figurative language really confuses some people... you wouldn't expect to find them on a writer's site though.

It's not really my interpretation of the Nicean Council, just a statement of the situation they were in and the coincidental timing. Try not to be condescending towards me dear, 2 out of every hundred people are actually more intelligent than I am... I'm fairly certain you aren't one of them.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Based on what I've seen, I'm absolutely certain.
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Virgil Newsomeposted 12 years ago
I would like to clarify something. Some Jews believe in Jesus. They call themselves Messianic Jews. Those Jews who do not believe in Jesus are the ones who are not convinced that he is the Messiah. I watched this thread go for too long now. It really is rather simple to understand.
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  livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  They're not Jews. They're Christians, Southern Baptists to be specific. The "Messianic Jewish" movement was created in the 20th century by Southern Baptists and is composed almost completely of people who were never Jews.
  http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ChJew_31/4798_31.htm
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  Moon Daisyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, they often try to convert Jews to their form of Christianity. That is why some of them might have originally been Jewish.
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  Truly Differentposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  They do try to convert Jews, as they consider it their "calling", their "duty". Some of them are Jews, as they were baptized/brainwashed. I say "brainwashed", as they didn't come to messianic Jews by themselves, but after being exposed to a well planned messianic mission. Sad, but in Israel this movement is pretty alive. Many extremist orthodox Jews who are no better than Muslim fanatics go violent against messianic Jews movement. It is not a fight of one religion against another, it is just hooliganism, that's all.
  Christians are free to worship in Israel, as long as they refrain from missionary work — prohibited by the Israeli government, by the way.
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  Moon Daisyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, many years ago a Messianic Jewish lady tried to convert me at the Kotel! I didn't realise this was illegal in Israel.
  
  I was young and at the time hadn't heard of Messianic Jews, and I was kind of confused because this lady was dressed just like an Orthodox Jew, but she was talking about Jesus rather a lot! She was rather forceful, so I can imagine how some impressionable young people might be taken in by her arguments.
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Jeramiposted 12 years ago
"Why don't Jews believe in Jesus?"

=========

Once we get past all of the phyco-analitical mumbo Jumbo ... simple answer is that they choose not to. For the same reasons everyone else calls themselves by a different name.
And they/we have done so in an organized manner.
Organizations require their own "individual" name-tag for "group" actavities.

Now that is a question in itself! Why do we do THAT.
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