Does God Support Israel's Claim to Palestine?
That is the West Bank and/or Gaza. Do you think God condones or supports the building of Jewish settlements on occupied territory? Does Israel's claim that God gave them the whole land of Israel override the various declarations by the United Nations that their actions are illegal? Do you believe that God has given Israel a right to refuse the Palestinian desire to make Jerusalem a joint capital of both states?
My view is that the whole land of Israel was given to the Hebrews on condition that they continued in the convenient between Abraham and God. Israel broke the covenant throughout their history, thus forfeiting that right and thus God removed them from the land by the Assyrians, Babylonians, and the Romans. Rights to the land were given under the old covenant, but Jesus announced a new one, which did not include the land. Thus I believe that the state of Israel have no such claims on Palestine.Genesis 17 would seem to settle the issue:
7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
The new covenant does not change what God has declared regarding this.
Matthew 5:17-19
King James Version (KJV)
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Is pretty explicit also!
Nobody can overrule Gods pronouncements, and the UN have no authority over God!
Equally nobody would willingly allow their proclaimed enemies, who have declared that they wish to annihilate all of the Jewish race from Israel, to live in open access to them, like Benji said:
If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. -- Benjamin Netanyahu.The everlasting covenant came with conditions that Israel remained faithful. God removed Israel from the land between AD70 and AD135, just as Jesus prophesied in Matthew 23-24. Now imagine you are a Palestinian who's ancestors had lived in the land for 1850 years. Out of nowhere come a load of Jews who have been absent all that time, and force you off your land and claim it for themselves. Don't you think they have a right to reply, a right to be affronted? Maybe even take up arms to defend themselves? I suppose that if the Native Americans had had international support they would not have had their ancestral lands taken from them either.
Which part of everlasting is it that you find hard to agree on?
everlasting
adj
1. never coming to an end; eternal
2. lasting for an indefinitely long period
3. lasting so long or occurring so often as to become tedious; incessant I cannot bear her everlasting complaints.
The population of Israel has ever had Jews present, albeit in diminished numbers for a while, likewise there have always been non Jewish folk living there.
But once the Jews entered the diaspora, the land turned barren:
Thomas Shaw, Travels and Observations Relating to Several Parts of Barbary and the Levant (London, 1767), p. 331ff. De Haas notes: "Hasselquist, the Swedish botanist, munching some roasted ears of' green wheat which a shepherd generously shared with him, in the plain of Acre, reflected that the white bread of his northern homeland and the roasted wheat ears symbolized the difference between the two civilizations' Had he known that Mukaddasi boasted in the tenth century of the excellence Of Palestine's white bread he might have been still more impressed by the low estate to which the country had fallen in seven hundred years.... Hasselquist joined a party of four thousand pilgrims who went to Jericho under an escort of three hundred soldiers. He estimated that four thousand Christians, mostly of the eastern rites, entered Jaffa each year, and as many Jews. The Armenian Convent in Jerusalem alone could accommodate a thousand persons. The botanist viewed the pilgrim tolls as the best resource of an uncultivated and uninhabited country. . ~ . Ramleh was a ruin." (Emphasis added.) De Haas, History, pp. 349, 358, 360, citing Frederich Hasselquist, Reise nach Palastina, etc., 1749-1752, pp. 139, 145-146, 190.
Twain wrote in The Innocents Abroad, pp. 349, 366, 367.
Come to Galilee for that... these unpeopled deserts, these rusty mounds of barrenness, that never, never do shake the glare from their harsh outlines, and fade and faint into vague perspective; that melancholy ruin of Capernaum: this stupid village of Tiberias, slumbering under its six funereal palms.... We reached Tabor safely .... We never saw a human being on the whole route.
Nazareth is forlorn .... Jericho the accursed lies a moldering ruin today, even as Joshua's miracle left it more than three thousand years ago: Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and their humiliation, have nothing about them now to remind one that they once knew the high honor of the Savior's presence; the hallowed spot where the shepherds watched their flocks by night, and where the angels sang, "Peace on earth, good will to men," is untenanted by any living creature... Bethsaida and Chorzin have vanished from the earth, and the "desert places" round about them, where thousands of men once listened to the Savior's voice and ate the miraculous bread, sleep in the hush of a solitude that is inhabited only by birds of prey and skulking foxes.
I think if one is looking at what happened in Israel before the return of the Jews to the land, one can see that those occupying it were not actually achieving any level of civilisation.
Since 1948 Israel has become a green and pleasant land that flows with 'milk and honey' again.
Modern Shiite Islamic propaganda, well funded by Islamic states that could easily absorb those who have flocked to Israel as 'refugees' (1,000,000 Jews were evicted from Islamic states, against 600,000 Arabs who chose to leave Israel) since 1948, refuse to accept the very people they demand be give the right to occupy Jerusalem.
The aim of the enemy is to annihilate the Jewish people, always has been, and will always fail.
Gods promises are yes and amen.
Isreal's claim to Palestine, comes out of WWI and the League of nations, all of it man made. If a God had decided this was land for any one, there would be no trouble years later!
No God, "NONE", had anything to do with this man-made mess.Think!Man has free will outside of God's. The bible illustrates throughout that humans behave outside of God's will. He simply protected the Israelites and fulfilled His promise as long as they adhered to what He commanded. The bible states that. The root of the League of Nations decision was most likely rooted in these beliefs as well. I'm sure they at least informed the decision. That was man.
But the fact that Israel still holds the land, pushed up against the Mediterranean, surrounded by their enemies, may be more than just the work of man. That's part of where I'm torn.
"No God, "NONE", had anything to do with this man-made mess.Think!"
We are. And we're using all the resources available to us to make the most informed decision we can. You feel we're using material that isn't valid. You don't know where they came from, who wrote them, especially the parts covered by the books of Moses, but you proclaim no God was involved as if it were fact. Half the world today still believes the resources we're drawing from are valid. You don't. Neither can be confirmed. So let's hold the proclamations of
what's fact and what isn't to what we can actually prove to be the case. Think.
The theology is unclear. Genesis suggests that Israel is an eternal possession for the Hebrews, but Moses is clear (speaking on behalf of God) in Deuteronomy that the Hebrews' occupancy of Canaan is conditional on following the Covenant, and they could be expelled. The Hebrew Bible discusses 2 subsequent expulsions (first by the Assyrians and Babylonians, the second by the Romans). The prophets blamed Israel's lack of obedience to the Covenant.
I am not a religious Zionist personally, but I am relating how I understand the theology (my Zionist leanings have always been on secular grounds). And not only religious Zionists are against giving Palestinians their land; many (secular) Israelis think it would just turn that land into a terrorist launching pad, like Gaza after it was handed over to the Palestinians in 2005.But I guess you also agree that scripture states that Israel will be returned to the Jewish people (secular or otherwise) and that this has been and is being fulfilled?
I have Jewish friends who recently made Aliyah to Israel and are Christians (not Messianic Jews)so Israel is a confusing situation, but one which politicians will not solve by negotiation or force.
I live in Malaysia, which England controlled for 250 years and which has been independent for only 50 years (just celebrated by Malaya)and it would be stupidity to asset that because we ruled and controlled their lands for that period of time, we had any right to demand they allow us an independent state within Malaysia, especially if our avowed intent was to destroy them.I have read that there are 2 types of Jews...Sephardic and Revisionist.
Sephardic Jews are Semitic, and say they can have no homeland until the Messiah comes...and since that hasn't happened, Israel is a farce.
Revisionists believe that after the Holocaust...any Jew has the right to land in Palestine, even if they are from Europe and have no generational ties to the Middle East.
No matter what the history---in my opinion, anyone who supports what the Israeli gvt is doing now to Arabs in Palestine has no moral standing whatsoever.
And you are poor representations of the Jewish faith.
I stand with the Rabbis who stand against Israel.Well...that's different.
Yes and No....but please don't listen to me as if I'm Mr. Non Bias Earl of Factuality and such....I'm knighted and all, of course, and in the magical kingdom of Speculation.
Sephardic Jews are Semitic, of course, but the other largely known (much more well known and populous than the Sephardic!) are the Ashkenazi Jews.
Basically....and this is WAY general - Sephardic Jews come from Spain where they had immigrated, and mostly stayed put following the Roman obliteration of Biblical Israel.
The Ashkenazi Jews...are the folks who've been persecuted up, down, backwards, forwards....and blamed for everything bad under the Sun by everyone (including myself)....but the facts of the matter seem to be that the Ashkenazi Jews have been vilified as a group due to the machinations and sheer wealth/influence of the very few at top.
Basically...what it comes down to is the Rothschild family, their history, and the resentment of the vastly larger number of persons who've seen their economies and politics beholden to family Rothschild and it's favoured cousins or otherwise minions.
But modern science proves that Jews are not bullshitters...but Jews are the (quite literally) descendants of Abraham.
There was a DNA study concerning the Jewish surname "Cohen" that spanned the entire globe....and every last person named "Cohen" shared some unique genetic traits that conclude that they are all, in fact - exactly what they've always claimed to be - descendants of Moses' brother Aaron, whom the Levitical or Priestly tribe was named for and founded on.
The Levites didn't marry outside their tribe...and the peoples that are descendants of Abraham are one tight nit group.
But don't worry about it much - you can become a Jew, and I could too. It's no nonsense in the Torah - it's not a racial or genetic thing - if you accept, endorse, and PRACTICE the Jewish religion, then you can be just as adopted into Judaism as the wives of Jewish Patriarchs.So, what do you think of the treatment of Palestinians?
Well I think it's effing HORRIFIC, and just exactly the sort of injustice based ENTIRELY on race and religion as the theosophic Nazi Germans had visited so inhumanely and monstrously towards the Ashkenazi Jews!!!!!!!
Let me try to make myself clear...The Nazis and the extremist of the Zionist movement....those folks are brothers at heart...they're not much different.
Oh this is exactly where I get into trouble...and get called "anti Semite."...but again - I don't care one single bit who the hell you are, or what your personal history is.
There is no excuse for Hitler's Nazi horrors against eh Jews - and there is absolutely no excuse for the MURDERS of the Palestinians at the hands of some of those same Jewish individuals as was seen and is now accepted as fact...such as the case of the bombing of the King David Hotel.
It was (another) total false flag operation involving Mossad, planned, premeditated, and totally cold blooded MURDER of innocent persons.
....and of course - there's many another example of the same sort that occurred at the King David Hotel.
Look...I'm trying hard to be as fair as is possible here....it's tough to be a Jew in Palestine sometimes...I've no doubt about that, but it's not nearly as tough as it would be to be a Palestinian!!!
Also...I can't trust the government of Israel any further than I could throw the whole collective mass of them...which of course, equals absolutely not a single foot, inch, or lesser increment of measure.
It's not the least bit "anti Semitic" to point out that the false flag attack conducted by the sovereign nation of Israel against the United States of America in the case of our own Naval warship, the USS Liberty...was an entirely devious, and completely amoral bit of intrigue that should have NEVER been forgotten...basically, Israel attacked one of our own vessels in the Mediterranean...and then tried to make it appear as if Egypt had attacked us.
No doubt about it - that is the EXACT same bullshit that Hitler had done for a pretext to the invasion of Poland.
Pot, meet Kettle!!!!
Big problems in Israel. I don't give a flying Giraffe if someone calls me an "anti Semite" for talking about things, and seeking the truth of any matter. I'm not a racist. YES, I make mistakes, and wind up accepting lies as facts at times - but I'll do what I can towards admitting when I'm wrong....but a liar and a killer....is a liar and a killer, and a Nazi is no worse or better than some of these politicians and military leaders from and/or in Israel that we the people of the Earth have witnessed.
I can't be an "anti Semite"...every last book in my Bible was written by a Jew - but I'll be damned before I take up for lies and murder.
If that's what you've read, then you might want to read something else, or pay better attention to your reading comprehension skills.
Maybe you ought to pay more attention to what's going on in the world?
Actions speak louder than words.
People prayed to god while they whipped slaves too....just because people say they are Holy, it doesn't erase their actions.
No matter which brand of superiority you buy into.
"Revisionist Zionism is a nationalist faction within the Zionist movement. It is the founding ideology of the non-religious right in Israel, and was the chief ideological competitor to the dominant socialist Labor Zionism. Revisionism is the precursor of the Likud Party."
That's why they can committ criminal acts with impunity...because they do not adhere to the religion which they claim!
Please know that the term "Zionist" has ....more currently used definitions than the original term had, and that it's not often used these days as a term relating to Jews returning to Palestine in the modern era (post the last destruction of the temple and the subsequent Diaspora)
I've rather admired the one hub of yours that I've read...but mostly what I admired there was seeing your replies in the comments. I'm totally confident that you well understand the concepts and the intended understandings of morality as per Judaism.
In other words....I'd rather see the universe align to where you dropped the secular stuff (if applicable), and that you wholly embraced the inner rebel - and went True Torah Jewish on us all.
I don't know of anyone online that fits that description that I ever get to talk to or read....it's a bummer.
It's utterly disrespectful for humans to start claiming pieces of Mother Earth in the name of the Gods. I would smarten-up ...
You should try asking God what God Condones, not anyone here at Hub. No one here is God.
Are you saying God will answer if I ask Him?
The bible isn't a law book. International law supports Palestinian self-determination and human rights. The Palestinian Territories are under an illegal military occupation.
Thank You! Repeat that a million times a day: illegal military occupation!
Tend to disagree, the bible is a law book, especially the OT, and unfortunately whether you recognise what God stated or not, it's still the law.
On the other hand international law is an opinion, maybe held by many, but still an opinion, and any sovereign state (and Israel is one of those) can choose to ignore what 'international law' states.
Now 'international law' can draw up sanctions against any state that disagreed with their 'international law' decisions, and deal with the consequences as they feel fit to do, that's life.
The Israelis have proven to be adept at dealing with such things, and my sister was involved in the importation (on behalf of her boss) of 'white goods' into Israel when they had problems buying washing machines ans such, but they also sent modern armaments described as 'white goods' and those 'white goods' managed to save Israel when the Arabs decided to invade them on Yom Kippur and a few other times, so Israel will not just roll over again and allow those who wish them extinct to wipe them out without compunction and heavy loss.
Sorry, that's just the way it is.
If you were to kill all but ONE Israeli, the last man standing would release the nuclear program and guess what, the Arab oilfields would be radiocative for the next 25,000 years.
God figure, your choice!
The fabled 'international law' also supports the right for a sovereign nation to take whatever measure required to defend their national interests.
So get used to the idea that the 'Palestinians' most of whom have NO titular claim to any land, and were refugees that the rest of the Arab world sensibly rejected from their own countries, will achieve nothing but death and grief until the recognise Israel as a sovereign state, just like 'international law' does.
If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel. -- Benjamin NetanyahuHaven't read so much nonsense for a while. International law is not up for negotiation by Israel or anybody else. That's called civilised standards.
The occupied territories belong to the Palestinians , that's the law
The Separation Wall is illegal
The Gaza massacre was a war crime but not the first by the IDF
Israel conducts racist and apartheid policies against Arabs in Israel and a brutal military occupation in the Occupied Territories. Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch will put you right on that score.
The Palestinians have recognised Israel, they are willing to accept a Two-State solution. Yom Kippur was almost 40 years ago. Move with the times man.Um, no. Hamas certainly hasn't and aren't, and they control the land that Israel ceded to the Palestinians (Gaza).
Really, LL?Who controls the checkpoints?
You mean the ones between Gaza and Israel proper?
...and the point is, still is a fact that the last man standing will nuke the Arab oilfields... powerful argument!
You either accept that Israel will no longer be willingly exterminated, or learn to live without oil... your choice, international law or not.
God, if he exists, would have to be fairly petty to be picking favorites. I thought we were ALL meant to be his children.
Of course I don't believe in God, so in my opinion the conflict is one that can only be resolved by we flawed mortals. I don't see a reason why both countries can't exist, other than their irrational deep-seated hatred of each other, a hatred that religion has only exacerbated and fueled.I really can't imagine god as an employee of the month at REMAX, selling real estate in the middle east .
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This is something I go back and forth on, and for many of the reasons that both Disappearinghead and Aquasilver state. It's like listening to the same argument that goes on in my head.
If I had to say which way I'm leaning right now, it's towards Disappearinghead's view. This is simply because I believe the whole point of the covenant with the Israelites, the point of the 613 Mitzvah laws, what to eat, who to procreate with, was to protect the bloodline that Jesus would ultimately be born of. This is because I believe Adam was created in an already populated world of natural humans (humans created in Gen 1)....
Gen 6:1-3 - And it came to pass, when HUMANS began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born unto them, that the SONS OF GOD saw the daughters of HUMANS, that they were fair; and they took for themselves wives of all whom they chose. And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not always strive with HUMANS, for THEY ARE MORTAL; yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years."
This is what Genesis states in its explanation for why the flood was necessary. God regretted putting humans on the earth because Adam's line had free will and chose on their own to breed with these humans. Then came the wicked element in humanity. Wickedness only possible with free will. So he explained that they're mortal, that His spirit would not contend forever, and that they would become mortal as well.
God chose Noah to carry on the bloodline and wiped out the rest. Then he chose one specific lineage, gave them very specific rules as far as what to eat and forbid them from mating outside of that bloodline.
Once Jesus was born, once he died for all, the rest simply wasn't necessary anymore. That's the point where God could step back, stop playing such an active role, and let us free willed beings behave just as we do so we can ultimately see what happens. Now we can all doubt He's even there and act however we're going to act, like the parable says, while the master is away.I'm sometimes called names such as "anti Semite" for my rants against international bankers and media moguls. In the past I had bought into some conspiracy theories that probably didn't help my reputation as NOT being a racist very much.
Still, truth is stranger than fiction.
I literally don't much care here either way, and the reason that I don't care is because
1. Israel is MOSTLY secular - if the average citizen wants that territory, then they aren't using the Torah much as justification...unless they're being dishonest.
2. Jews don't accept Jesus as the messiah, and that's just a given...however, they should certainly respect his theological interpretations of The Torah...or in any case, give it all some thought.
So far as the golden rule is concerned....Israel wouldn't be here should the others have been able to do unto her as she does unto them.
All the nations of the world are into ethnic diversity...but Israel sure isn't.
I do recognize that the problems are so deep seated, cultural, and "spiritual" in nature that they're not going to be solved by politicians. What a joke! Only God can heal spiritual problems.Hey thanks!
Besides that corporate shill propaganda bot that stalks me in the Hubpages forums....I also had to have my computer repaired that was keeping me off line.But you're back now, that's the main thing.
You don't know much about Israel, do you? Conspiracy theories don't count.
Dude, come on!
No, it's true - I don't know a whole lot about Israel, and I've never been out of North America.
I do recognize that were all the things I've heard friends of mine from Europe that live in the greater NYC area say about Texas true....that I'd have stacks of KKK outfits to wade through at the local dollar stores.
Hey - I no longer remember exactly what the video I'd like to link here was called. I recall where I'd seen it - and that was on a friend's blog, the friend lives in Istanbul....but If I find it I could possibly send it your way if interested. I'm talking about a mini documentary concerning ...discontent among certain groups in Israel, and I'm not talking about Palestinians or otherwise Islamic groups either.I've read some of your Hubs on Jews and Israel, and some of the comments you've left, and I'm not at all impressed. Much of it is frankly the sort of conspiratorial tropes you see published on anti-Semitic sites.
Re: Israeli diversity. The reason I said you clearly don't know what you're talking about is that stepping off a plane in Tel Aviv would dispel any idea that there isn't any ethnic diversity in Israel. While Ashkenazim and Sefardim are the two largest ethnic groups, you don't mention the large number of Beta Israel, Mizrahim, Cochin Jews, and Jews of every color under the rainbow. Naturally, intermarriage (they are all Jews, after all) is blurring the lines, but that's not a bad thing. Not to mention that a good 20% of Israelis are not Jewish at all, but primarily Muslim and Christian Arab.Yes, that is all fine - and if you bother to look, you'll find that I do admit when I'm wrong about things. I'm more than aware of my own mental glitches. Feel free to keep score on me if you wish, you won't see me keeping score on you.
God supports Israel's claim to Palestine about as much as God supports suicide bombers plowing into the Twin Towers.
I don't think God would be too happy about the chief family of world satanist, the Rothschilds, planting their non Jewish emblem in blue over Israel.
I'm positive that God wouldn't like that....I don't even have to think much about it.
I'm pretty sure that God doesn't care for incinerating thy neighbour with white phosphorous munitions, or running over thy neighbour crushing her to death with a bulldozer or Abrams tank either.
I'm somewhat convinced, however, that who the global oligarchs regard as god, be it fiction or not, is the god on the dollar, and not the one that the ancient Hebrews renowned.
Who knows what David Rockefeller was thinking when he had those planes flown into the towers via 1960's era remote control technology?I'm an atheist so it would be pretty ludicrous for me to talk about what "the big G" wanted. However, irrespective of my lack of spiritual understanding, the G I learnt about in school was a good bloke who spread the word of brotherly love and human cooperation. I very much doubt that that particular guy, would tolerate an apartheid regime and human suffering in his name. Just my two pennath.
Maybe you've got some insight into this that can help me....it bothers me terribly.
MOST of the atheist that I regularly talk to online ( and MOST of my long time online friends are definitely atheist)...have no inkling of a clue as to...all sorts of things that go on.
Like the way it refers to "god" on the dollar, that reference is in no manner of speaking a reference to the God of the Bible and Torah.
I'm forever seeing atheist that jump all over the problems with modern Christianity, and Islam...but they refuse to see that occult rituals and symbols are everywhere...or that just because someone like "W" bush claimed to be a Christian - that in and of itself makes him nothing of the sort.
~takes deep breath~*closes eyes* one has to "define" what god might mean, to them, obviously? Not sure about the symbols, *grins* but think about what happens when I type illuminate into my browser backwards. Then, it all becomes clear. Or at least it did, did you ever try that Wes?
Yeah, I love that as well, neat trick, but still a trick, some guy bought the domain name and put a redirect link on it, funny but not real.... (shakes head).... or is it? are they now hiding is such plain sight that they leave glaring clues scattered about so we will nod sagely and say "see!" and the sheeple will down their heads and munch grass bleating "just another conspiracy nut...blah, blah"....
Life gets so difficult when you start looking.
Wesman, glad your inimitable style is still with us.
JohnI don't know if it was for real or not. I did also hear, or read, that it was a trick.
I've never had to put anywhere near that kind of effort into causing folks to think me some sort of devil. I've got demons leaping out of my eyes or something....folks tend to think I look like I'm about to pop when I'm imagining petting puppy dogs or something....
Let me get good and twisted for the evening...and nobody much seems to want to talk....
God......listen, if you can at least recognize that the Earth and all that lives on it is governed by "laws" that are sometimes definable by humanity via the scientific method....BUT that the scientific method has also been able to discern laws and events that can seem to obliterate the "truth" of the more established laws, and seemingly at whims, therein you have your God.
Add to that loose definition of "God" the concepts of moral human social interactions - and then you can either define for yourself the Hebrew/Christian God or the theosophic and theistic Satan.
It's merely a matter of your personal interpretation of what constitutes "right," or "wrong."Absolutely, whether Christian, atheist or whatever, once you have determined, according to your own moral code, the difference between right and wrong you just have to follow your conscience.
I'm finding that I often have to revise my positions on some things.
AS I've already stated a dozen times or more....the "Khazarian Conspiracy Theory"...is mostly just bunk, false, lies, or racism.
I'm not the slightest bit ashamed of having TOTALLY fallen for that...I know and regularly speak with quite a lot of Jewish persons....and it's sort of bothersome to me now...not one single one of them EVER bothered to tell me, or say one single thing to me about how that whole deal was not entirely true.
The "Khazarian Conspiracy" stuff is based in some historical fact...no way around that...but the lie, the propaganda, the hate behind it all is that it supposes that Ashkenazi Jews....aren't even remotely the same people as the Hebrews.
Modern science, however, proves that Ashkenazi Jews....are exactly the Jews that they'd always claimed to be.
Hey - I was wrong for years and years about this shit. Show me someone that hasn't been wrong...I'll likely be waiting for a long time. I never much thought myself even remotely a racist - I was only misinformed, and it was a Irish national friend of mine who finally showed me the how and the why that the Ashkenazi Jews....are really Jews, the same folks in the Torah and Bible.
If someone DOES NOT accept the facts and science...and all out logic in the vid link I'll share here....then holy smoke, Batman - it's just likely or somewhat....common or relatively understandable to accept the ideas of "The Thirteenth Tribe."
LiveLonger...or Jason here at Hubpages Staff...I like that guy just fine, if he wants to read shit I wrote a year or more ago and say somewhat vaguely that it's "anti Semitic" or otherwise similar to that sort of thing...I'm not mad, I forgive the guy already, I've already admitted my mistake, and have no need to kiss anyone's ass...ever.
But here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnIEsf_klCgThat's not what I got from it. I got that the Khazars infiltrated in to the Jewish population and became them.
They chose Judaism just like any power-hungry moguls chose a religion back in those days.
Because I see Nazi and Zionist as the same too....and, what do either of them have to do with Christianity or Judaism?
Infiltration..just like they have done in the USA.
Otherwise...please tell me why we are cutting from US citizens, and still sending 8 mil a day to Israel?I'm making a personal effort to never use the word "Zionism" any more because I can't seem to use that word without causing either myself or someone else to get angry.
"Zionism" used to just mean "Jews returning to Palestine." That's it. But that's not all that it means now.
I'm done with the Khazarian Conspiracy thing. If I thought that I could write something remotely as good as the video, then I would. The video was just ultra thorough.I agree. "Zionism" can mean different things depending on who you're talking to. By some definitions, I am one, and by others, I am not.
Technically, I count as a "Zionist" myself so far as supporting the idea of religious Jews returning to Palestine.
I've nothing but respect for religous Jews practicing the Torah. When I see ...I don't know a whole lot about the different factions within Judaism...so I'm guessing the term would be something like "very Orthodox Jews" - when I see such persons standing up for and decrying the sometimes awful treatment of Palestinians, I practically cheer.
Obviously, I'm not an atheist. I'm not much of a Christian, and I don't fit in well with American Christian crowds, but then again I don't try to either. I don't have much of an understanding of WHY Israel is mostly secular, but I definitely wish that wasn't the case.With all due respect, this is a gross simplification. There is no central authority in the Jewish religion (unlike in Catholicism, for example) so there is no one agreed-upon definition of anything. Some Jews might appear to be speaking on behalf of all Jews or Judaism - they might think so themselves - but it'd be impossible to get universal agreement.
Some of the many opinions among Jews about Israel:
- Some religious Jews believe that all of the "holy land" was deeded to the Jews by G-d, including all of "Judea and Samaria" (the West Bank), Gaza, Sinai, and much of Jordan (all of Biblical Canaan and beyond). Some of them are Orthodox, some of them are not.
- Some of this group believe that Israel should exist on that territory, and it should push out all "Amalekites," people who are committed to the destruction of Jews. Some believe that's the Palestinians/Arabs. Religious Jews point out there is a commandment binding on Jews to destroy Amalek. Some of them are various Orthodox groups, others are not.
- Others believe that Amalek no longer exists, or never existed except figuratively, and regardless, this commandment does not apply to Palestinians.
- Others are just as religious/Orthodox - wearing *almost* the same dress! - and believe very differently, that Jews' occupation of the land is dependent on its fulfillment of religious laws, and that without a religious central authority (Israel is a secular state, not a theocracy), Israel shouldn't exist. These are almost always Orthodox, but only certain sects, not all.
- Others believe that Israeli oppression of Palestinians violates the most repeated commandment in Torah (repeated 32 times) to "not oppress the stranger (because you were once strangers in the land of Egypt)." Some of these are Orthodox, many more of the more liberal branches. Some are secular/cultural Jews.
This is just a handful of religious Jewish opinions. There are also many other secular Jewish opinions, many for peace with Palestinians and many against. Secular opinions against peace with the Palestinians and dividing lands are not about land promised by G-d but rather exasperation of 60 years of terrorism and an adversary that has the destruction of Israel as one of its central goals in its charter (Hamas).
My point is Jewish opinion on the state of Israel, what land Jews deserve and why, what to do with Palestinian territory, etc varies widely and is not easily teased out based on religious observance at all.Well see, that is exactly the kind of feedback that I wanted! That's very informative!
Of course I was raised "Christian," and in what most would call a VERY fundamentalist Christian church, and so the Torah is something I've been reading and hearing discussed my entire life.
....but I tend to think, and you absolutely know, that ...."most" of these "WASP" preachers don't have a clue what they're talking about when teaching O.T. stuff, and are often well meaning, but often just plain wrong.
So I'm always pretty interested in seeing what Jewish persons have to say about the Torah.
As someone who very much admires the teachings of Jesus and who doesn't much see a conflict between modern science and the Books of Moses when viewed as an allegory plus history - the O. T. is very important to me, but (of course) is only a part of or "set up" to a world view I'm always trying to improve my grasp on.I was raised Catholic (I converted to Judaism) and Christianity, frankly, does a very good job at misrepresenting Jewish history and thought. Fortunately, my parents were not religious, so it gave me opportunity to distance myself from religion and come to my own conclusions. Those conclusions were far more in line with Jewish ones than Christian ones.
"By now, every single one of us knows, or ought to know that the mass media is completely ethnically monopolized by a group of criminals, liars, and filthmongers. We know this. It's verifiable, it's undeniable. One TINY ethnic group of persons owns, controls, and deploys mass media garbage throughout (hint) Israel and the Western World."
That's one example.Hey, I well recognize that...I've probably said something exactly like that, or a variation....there is no telling how many times.
I realize that comment of mine could be looked at as racist, and so now whenever I'm ranting away at mass media, I drop the "ethnic monopoly."
If you were to look for anti Semitism in ....anything I say or have said on the internet, what you are going to find is that I'm always ranting about international bankers and mass media, and I'm talking about the exact persons that run banks, television studios, etc.
I'm not talking about persons that AREN'T bankers or MSM guys.
LOTS of such persons aren't the slightest bit Jewish...David Rockefeller comes to mind...involved in the banking.
I mean this very literally - for most of my adulthood whenever I've passed by a television or had to sit in the same room as one (I do watch some MLB...that's it), I've been overwhelmed with disgust with whatever was on, and I absolutely buy into the idea of a purposefully "dumbed down America." I hate that very much.Well, I'm glad your thinking has changed. It's a recurrent cliche among anti-Semites that everything they dislike in the world is all the fault of "the Jews."
Everyone in the world is responsible for the world's problems.
I used to think that banking was a Jewish invention or something...but I don't think that is exactly true. I ought to read about that.
If someone were to say, "well, these Jewish bankers are to blame for the world's troubles!!!!" - I wouldn't myself be able to say much in defence of bankers, but I've read that in places in Europe hundreds of years ago that Jews were forbidden to own land, and so they simply had to find another way to have something....so quite naturally, some of them went into lending and/or banking.
So even in the case of the ugly history of the Rothschild family...everyone is to blame. The people who wouldn't allow Jews to own land created the circumstances that led to Jews going into and dominating banking and finance.
My personal thoughts on what causes the world's collective ills is the war between the individual ego (pride) and the role of an individual as a member of a community. It's the same thing as Paul's war between the "flesh and the spirit."Banking is not limited to any religion or ethnic group. There are robust banking systems in countries with virtually no Jews at all, and those involved in banking are not limited to a handful of commonly-known names like Rockefeller or Rothschild. Neither of these families, in fact, have as much influence or power as they once did (as is the case with the Carnegies, the Vanderbilts, the Romanovs, etc.)
When I talk about the big "G" I actually mean Jesus. Just for clarification in case any body thought I was talking about Google.
God supporting single nation...that must be very partial god...It is myth of god which is supporting both palestine and israel, depending on whose perceptive we see...
No.
But I don't mind much if you don't see it that way. I'm not an evangelical sort of person...facts are fact.
The facts are that nobody can prove there is a God of the sort that is represented in the books of the Torah/Bible. Modern Science can't disprove any of it either....every single last bit of confusion is in exactly the instance of persons who refuse to see allegory for allegory, and instead, stick to literal interpretations of things.....as if Moses was some bullshitter who was saying, "pull my finger."
Jesus spoke in parables. Why would anyone think that Moses didn't use slightly complex (for Americans...it seems) literary devices too?
If the Abrahamic covenant was nothing but mythology or cleverness from what is surely a clever people, then why is it that Israel is forever the center of Western Media and political pot stirring as far away as ..."take your pick?"
Do you suppose that it's just because of all of the wealthy Jews in this world? That's an awfully conspiratorial view, isn't it?
Nevermind the fact that the Hebrew prophets well in advance and time and again told the people of Israel that they'd be conquered, enslaved, persecuted...and then return to the land they'd been promised by the unprovable God.
Don't bother to find out about what happened after Alexander the Great died, and his world dominion divided unto his four Generals...and what passed between his General that inherited Palestine and the Hebrew priest there either.
Nevermind the fact that many an ancient prophecy was fulfilled in 1948...it's just coincidence!or people who believed in prophecy made it possible!!!!!!!!!!!!!....Anyways this god theme with its preferred nation is not in synergy of omnipresent god theme with unbiased attitude according to me...
I hear this all the time. What difference does it make?
Here's another, "the Hebrews stole their entire religion from other ancient religions such as the Sumerian one, and made it their own."
I don't buy that either. If every ancient religion featured similar elements, that doesn't mean that the Hebrews, or anyone else "stole" an idea or made an old idea their own, that only means that such things play themselves out over and over again in the lives and histories of mankind, and they do so for a reason that is beyond mankind's understanding.Well, perhaps.
But really, they definitely "stole". As in copied plot and characters wholesale. Try that in the modern world and you'd end up in court
Take the intellectual property of another and make a profit, then make war based on idealism to suit the wants of the leader, believing that what is happening is justified. Patriotism is another word for terrorism, as religion is another form of institutional manipulation.
Hello Karl, I thought you'd died long ago. Glad to have you back, Mr. Marx.
I'd be more in line with Nietzche. I'm more of a religious anarchist, I think the system should be reset, for a vast majority of believers have destroyed the meaning. You talk about equal rights and humillity, yet you damn anyone to hell that doesn't see it your way. Comparing me to Marx was just another example of religious folk tollerating another point of view. Great way to promote your faith, by insulting the mind of another.
WOAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Slow down there, pardner! I did no such thing. I've never "damned anyone to hell"...EVER. That's just NOT my job, and my whole jibe about you and Karl Marx was me attempting HUMOUR!Well then accept my appologies, I meant no disrespect. I took it as a jab and jabbed back, there's no excuse for that. Do I really seem Marxist?
Apology accepted!!!
No, it was only a joke - but any time someone talks as if religions should be banned or something, then Karl, who's grave, incidentally, is the site for lots of bang up satanic orgies and such, is an easy reference!
http://www.scribd.com/doc/38017685/Was- … a-Satanist
http://www.scribd.com/doc/31067286/Marx … -WurmbrandI don't think they should be banned, I think they should stop vying for religious supremacy, as if a religion is the end all of spiritual matters. The system is flawed and even more so by seeking a perfection that does not exist.
Yes, that happens a lot. The cultures that they stole from didn't write anything down, so...
Outside Orthodox circles, it's relatively uncontroversial that the Biblical Genesis "borrows" heavily from the Babylonian epic of Gilgamesh (the flood story) and the Enuma Elish (creation story).If the stories or allegories are correct, then it's not "theft," it's just stating the truth, right?
In other words....if the flood and creation were both allegories that represented the truth in a way so that anyone could understand them - it would have been dishonest to NOT use those stories as representative of the reality that we all share.Yes, maybe. The problem is which god created the world, then, and flooded it. The Babylonians and ancient Hebrews would have different takes on that.
If the allegory of creation is viewed as an allegory....as it should be, where's the conflict?
Allegory for what? What meaning is present in these two stories? What value?
Well, if you can see the creation in Genesis as an allegory, then it's easy to see that it's valuable. You can't exactly start teaching five year olds about evolution right off the bat.
Also, plain and simple - there are people that aren't ever going to be able to understand a lot of the things in modern biological science, and they need something to go on too.
The flood....that one is a bit more mysterious, but most every ancient culture has a flood mythology. Obviously, the entire world wasn't covered in water though. I'm seeing lots of pretty "out there" theories these days concerning the great flood, it's all very interesting, and I'm not sure what to make of it for myself.
Then there is historical value - everyone should be taught about how these things were accepted as fact in a literal sense. I honestly don't see how people manage to do that, but we all know that they very often do.
There is Literary value. It's tough to beat Moses as a ....historian, military leader, spiritual leader, historical figure, storyteller, law giver...Moses is a vastly important character !!!If you truly cannot teach evolution to a five year old, what value does subsitutiing nonsense have?.
If someone can't understand evolution, it makes sense to teach them religion instead?
I certainly agree that people should learn about religions. Not religion, but religions. Not taught as fact, but as social history.Well there you go! That's good enough for me already, i.e., "social history," and then let everyone decide things for themselves as they must do anyway.
Most of the deeply religious firmly resist the idea of teaching children anything like that, of course.
That's what churches are for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not schools. I wouldn't want church and state mixed any more than any atheist would. It's mixed too much for my tastes as it is now.
Of course I don't think an entirely atheist sort of view should be taught in schools either...just a round about and objective sort of view on various major epistemology schools of thought.
I'm talking about public schools though - in colleges folks can either go to a state school or a religious school, and they well know what they're getting into or purchasing at that stage.No, no, no.
Not teaching it as fact. Teaching the history of religion - all religions - in its entirety. That is definitely NOT what churches are for.Well yeah, I got that.
In my perfect world (wish me luck on that one....) schools teach all points of view, at least the bigger ones, and objectively in social studies and history classes.
Science classes are for science.
Churches, of course, will always teach whatever they wish - be it right, wrong, good, bad, or just plain ugly.
Well, yes, if you read the creation myths literally. They weren't historically. The concept of historical validity is a relatively modern one, and the anti-scientific reaction to it is also a modern invention.
However you read them, there are in conflict with reality.
How would an allegorical read of them be in conflict with reality? Are Aesop's Fables in conflict with reality, too, with all those talking animals?
It's only 'stealing' in the case of fiction. You can find numerous examples of actual events described very differently from one source to the next. Just flip back and forth between 24-hour news networks to see this in action. Nothing weird there.
What I do find weird is those who seem to think nothing of making the assumption that all these stories that came from an age when writing first began were nothing more than pure fiction with no basis in reality whatsoever. Like humans were prolific fiction writers right out of the gate.
So, if the Hebrews "stole" the stories from the Sumerians, how exactly did the Hebrews know to change the specifications of the ark in their version to make a very much sea-worthy vessel when the 'source material' you say they stole from described it as box-shaped? Neither the Sumerians nor the Hebrews had any way of knowing about sea vessel buoyancy and fluid displacement that long ago. Just a lucky guess you think?Oh, you again.
Ladies and gentlemen, let me introduce you to a Biblical "scholar" who thinks every bit of Genesis is in line with science.. you won't believe the twists and turns he takes to get there, but it sure can be fun to watch..
Until you realize that he is serious, of course.m it's not fun after that.I love how you say I took all of these twists and turns. Illustrating how Genesis 1 correctly lists 13 specific details and 6 major eras in Earth's formation would take a bit more than a few twists and turns to make it work.
I noticed you had nothing of substance to dispute it. All you could do is call my way of thinking into question. Here, I've since added links and pics to my hub to further illustrate.... <snipped - no promotional links in the forums>
Please, enlighten me. Show me where I'm wrong. Untwist it.
Actually it was the Christians that were forbidden from making profit. Those not forbidden were Jews, who the Christians used to handle money, which was one of the few avenues allowed the Jews.
Right. Usury.
The credit system. Debt. What has us in its grip.Now you sound like a right-wing Republican. Funny how the political extremes resemble each other.
(Oh, and Christians, Muslims, and just about everyone else have been practicing "usury" for hundreds of years now, so don't feel left out.)Yes, and religious extemes as well.
You have said some pretty nasty things about Christians, and have referred to me as a Jew-Hater.
Extremes come in all shapes and sizes.
But I don't consider myself extreme. I hate injustice equally.
I would have hated the Nazi's as much as I do the Zionists.
Can you say the same?You've said that before. I asked you to point out where I called you a Jew Hater. The entire Forum is searchable by Google Search. You never do. Because you're lying. Again. Not the first time, lovemychris.
And, no, I would not hate a group of people who are not committed to the genocide of another people as much as a people who were, and were able to wipe out more than 6 million people. The fact that you can't tell the difference says a lot about your priorities.How would I go about searching the forum for when you called me a jew hater? Or for when you said nasty things about Christians? How do I do it, and I will!
There is a hubber who is Jewish, and whose avi is of her riding a camel. We were arguing and she said "listen to livelonger"...and I said "I don't respond to people who call me a jew hater", and asked that we don't respond to one another...that I remember. And also remember feeling surprised at your venom for Christians as you don't like it directed at Israel.
But tell me how and I will.
And I don't care if it's 6 million or 6,000. It's still disgusting and vile....and MY country is helping to pay for it.
Glad you can make excuses for it...I won't.Go to Google and type in:
site:hubpages.com/forum/ livelonger "jew hater"
You'll see that twice you've accused me of calling you a Jew Hater, but I've never actually done that. Which means you're lying (wouldn't be the first time!) or you're confusing me with someone else.
And since I don't enjoy people who repeatedly confuse me with others, or lie about me, not to mention only care about crimes if they're committed by Jews, don't expect a reply unless you can provide proof about that accusation (I won't be holding my breath).97
livelonger4,134 postsJoined: 5 years agoHubs: 157Followers: 1,959
lovemychris wrote:
You want me to know...YOU do it!
You don't want to know. You want to continue to feed fantasies that allow you to hate Jews.
Well yeah, but of course usury has never been exclusive to Jews - but is one of the single biggest problems in today's world.
We've a finite world so far as resources are concerned. What is infinite is human greed.
I have no idea how the global financial system can keep going....as the amount of debt that folks think they are owed is far beyond what could ever possibly get paid.
One thing I know for sure is that it's a damned interesting time to be alive!
No, I don't think God "sides" with anyone in these disputes. I think God wants us to figure it out and through kindness, love, and peace, come to an agreement we all can live with and stop the violence and war. In other words, WWJD? If we all stopped, took a deep breath, and asked this question, I think the outcome would be entirely different than what we have happening.
Mahatma Ghandi said, "If we believe in an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, then everyone in the world will end up being blind and toothless."
Confusis say: "He who seeks revenge digs two graves."
But, do we listen to these wise men? No, we end up assasinating them.As an atheist, it INFURIATES me that we could have a major world war because of nonsense written thousands of years ago.
Of course, as usual, it isn't really about that at all except to some loonies on the fringe, so that takes the caps lock off my fury and leaves me only infuriated that we could have another war because people can't be decent to one another."The Iranian oil bourse will start trading oil in currencies other than dollars starting on March 20th. Beware the Ides of March. This is a blatant attempt to challenge the US domination of oil markets and to try to lessen the influence of the petrodollar on the world economy. This is what is at the heart of this conflict."
"Iran has halted oil shipments to Britain and France, the Oil Ministry said Sunday, in an apparent pre-emptive blow against the European Union after the bloc imposed sanctions on Iran's crucial fuel exports."
How high will gas prices go?Very high, I expect. Which is no doubt why William Hague is imploring Isreal not to strike Iran.
97
livelonger4,134 postsJoined: 5 years agoHubs: 157Followers: 1,959
lovemychris wrote:
When I hate something, I'll let you know.
You won't need to. It's obvious enough.http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/83070
This is the thread. RueVera was the one who told me I should listen to you...and later on I asked you to not respond to me and I would do the same.Haven't called you a Jew Hater (your first accusation was well before these posts), but let's keep our distance. To say you don't like Jews and that you have an obsession with them is to put it mildly.
To only hear what you want to hear is another kind of obsession.
and I guess I'm as stupid as all these right wingers are always alluding to. To my feeble mind, "you hate jews" = "jew hater".
Whatever, we shall keep our distance.
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